What's In a Tool? a Case For Made In the USA (hackaday.com)

szczys writes: You have the choice of buying a wrench made in the USA and one made in China. Which one should you buy? The question is not a straightforward one. Tools are judged by their ability to do the job repeatedly and without fail. To achieve this, only the best of design and manufacturing will do. But this is a high bar when you factor in price competition which often leads to outsourcing production. Gerrit Coetzee looks at this issue, comparing two instances of the same model of Crescent brand adjustable wrench; one a legacy manufactured in the USA, another outsourced for manufacture in China.

Comments

Crescent won't learn

[damn_registrars]

They were one of the most significant holdouts over the past decade or so, but they won't learn from their mistake. They could have learned from vise-grip, who could have learned from dremel, who could have learned from Stanley. Sears (Craftsman) could have learned from any or all of them, as could Husky and Kobalt.

They'll all just go the same way, only to lose the race to the bottom to Harbor Freight.

Re:Crescent won't learn

[Anonymous Coward]

One could easily see this lesson by taking a Craftsman wrench from the 1990s and comparing it with one made today.

Now, one can just go to Harbor Freight, pick up hand tools which are just as good as the Craftsmans (because they likely come off the same forges and on the same boats), but a lot cheaper. For stuff that is infrequently used, this is fine. Same with HF's power tools. I've seen their stuff with a different color and a name brand... same cheap, Chinese construction... but 2-5 times the price. So, might as well skip the "badge engineering" and go there.

Of course, if you want stuff that is worth anything, especially powered items, you will be paying more, but it actually will work.

What is funny is there is room in the tool market. All it would take is for a tool company to make decent tools (not whatever the Chinese factories can make), but something designed in the US, and well made (the 1990s Craftsman tools are a good example.) Then, sell those at mom and pop shops or whatever stores don't mind carrying them. Now, people will have a choice between cheap Chinese junk, rebranded Chinese junk, and overpriced (but well made) US made tools. This is what Craftsman should be, but since Sears surrendered to K-Mart, it will need to be a specialty company.

Maybe if Park Tool decides to get their head out of their ass, move tool making back to the US, and expand out of the bicycle market, that would be the ideal thing. Their stuff has been quite decent, but it would make them actually stand out if they went back to pre-millenium tool making.

Re:Crescent won't learn

[Culture20]

As a tool user, I'll admit to buying from Harbor Freight for the things that are intended to be used up. You can't beat their deals on "rotating tool (compare with Dremel!)" heads which are designed to get used up anyway. But their tools that are supposed to last? The hammers loosen after the first few hits. Your options then are to take them in for the lifetime warranty replacement, or hammer another shim in the top. Their other "lasting" tools aren't that great either. Although they do have the biggest adjustable wrench I've ever seen (at over four feet long), I'm sure if you need something like that regularly, there are better ones online that cost more but are worth it not to break while you're turning whatever giant bolts you're turning.

Re:Crescent won't learn

[Anonymous Coward]

It's problematic to do comparisons with older objects. The ones that lasted were the good ones. The ones with manufacturing defects have been replaced long ago.

Re:Crescent won't learn

[Anonymous Coward]

Not tools. Good quality tools can be identified by heft and feel. The moving parts run smoothly and have no slop in them. Mating surfaces connect cleanly. The castings are high quality. The metal used is an alloy and working surfaces are heat treated or better.

And then there's the guarantee. There were some old-line tool makers that carried unconditional, lifetime guarantees, which you don't do if you don't have confidence in your product. I'm talking guarantees that said 'if this tool fails for any reason, we will replace it for free'.

I've seen some tools from India and China that actually seemed decent. Which stands out because those locations are usually known for price rather than quality.

Re:Crescent won't learn

[drinkypoo]

Some HF tools are fantastic, though they are few. Some are total garbage; surprisingly, they are few. Some require modification before use, which supposedly notably includes their machine tools which have rough edges and the like. No self-respecting machinist would let anything like that out the door, but no self-respecting machinist was involved in their manufacture.

What actually is great, though, are most of their hand tools. The wrenches, socket wrenches and so on are every bit as good as Craftman ever was, if not better — I am a vintage tool aficionado, so I do actually have basis for comparison. Their torque wrenches are not pleasant to the hand, but they are consistent and durable and practically free compared to the big names, which aren't actually any more precise.

The stuff that gets used up, like drill bits and grinding stones, are actually better purchased somewhere else, because those actually are crap.

The only hammers I've bought at HF have been rubber mallet and plastic dead blow, which have been of very high quality for their price. All my other hammers are vintage, acquired at yard sales and the like. I live in rusty crusty old boy country, so there's lots of tools around. I only have to buy stuff online if I need something metric.

Re:Crescent won't learn

[jgotts]

I would agree that the three standard Harbor Freight torque wrenches compare favorably with the 1990's era Craftsman torque wrench that I paid $90 for. I tested the $10 Harbor Freight tool side by side on my vehicle with the Craftsman tool and they are close enough that it would be hard for me to justify paying 10x times the price. I can also leave the $10 Harbor Fright torque wrench in my vehicle and not have to worry about it getting lost, permanently borrowed, or stolen.

My recommendation is to own one set of quality tools made in the United States. Keep this set where you use tools the most. Also buy a set of cheap backup tools. Keep these tools where you wouldn't commonly use them, but they still might come in handy. For example, at your employer or at your significant other's place.

And every time you shop at Harbor Freight, make sure to get your free flashlight and use your 20% discount coupon. I always carry around a stack of Harbor Freight coupons.

Re: Crescent won't learn

[guruevi]

The thing is that many Chinese tools from a stable brand also have trade in. Husky/Kobalt have a no questions asked trade in at their respective big box stores. I use it frequently as do professionals. I've tried trading in expensive tools from supposedly "good" brands and pay more in shipping than a new cheap tool will cost.

These days the quality from China is the same as the quality from the US in a lot of cases. There are outliers but they are no longer the norm. And stuff is so cheap these days it makes no sense to buy the expensive crap. I bought an electric staple gun from harbor freight for $15 - 4000 staples later the spring came out of it's chamber - HB replaced it on the spot. But it's better than doing 20000 staples with the $100 gun and then having to bring it in 3 days for a $75 "consumable part" repair.

Judgement

[jbmartin6]

"Tools are judged by their ability to do the job repeatedly and without fail" Not necessarily. I might just need it once, or for very light use. It is often true that you get what you pay for, but this doesn't mean you should pay for more than what you need.

Re:Judgement

[slinches]

True, except that fraction is likely in the range of 6/2 to 15/3.

Re:Judgement

[MBGMorden]

Rarely is hiring a professional going to be cheaper than a cheap tool if you can do the job yourself.

Personally, I COMPLETELY understand the point of the article. There are certain tools I use a lot. For those, I avoid crap and try to buy Made in the USA stuff if I can help it (not that everything made here is good or everything made in China is bad - but the signal to noise ratio is definitely better if you buy domestically made stuff).

On the flip side though - there are other things that I expect to use once or infrequently. As a DIRECT comparison to your example - I needed to fit a recoil pad to an old gunstock a few years back. Cost to have a gunsmith do it: $35. I had full faith in my ability to do the job - I just needed a belt sander (which I've never needed before so I didn't have one). I not only bought a cheap Chinese made one - I bought a USED Chinese one from a pawn shop for $10. Job went perfectly without a hitch. Not only did I save a bit of cash, but I also now have a belt sander sitting in the garage if I happen to need one again. Now if I used one daily , I'd get something a lot better. It'd be worth it as I'm sure this unit wouldn't last too long with constant use. But for just the one time I needed it for? The cheap unit worked fine.

Informative Article

[slasher999]

Unlike others I found this article well written and with a unique perspective. Defining requirements and tolerances is very important but far too often we overlook these steps and rush right into a project - get the PMO involved, assign a PM, purchase some widget we "need" and run setup. Project complete. Of course it doesn't meet the requirements of the user or customer, but we can't worry about that. We have more projects to "complete".

Fallacy

[KeensMustard]

This is bit of a false dilemma fallacy. Firstly, Chinese manufacturers will make tools to spec - if you pay them less, get a lower quality product. Secondly, I don't see why I would go to Bunnings or Gasweld and only have the choice of two brands - there's many brands out there, Sidchrome, Stanley, Kincrome are all very good (and all AFAIK made in Taiwan these days) - just buy the tool at whatever price level makes sense.Not a lot of point shelling out big bucks for a tool you only pick up once a year.

Nothing against US made stuff but you pay extra because of the cost of shipping it half way around the world, and generally the exchange rate makes importing those goods expensive because the of the high US dollar.

Re:Fallacy

[ibpooks]

Chinese manufacturers will make tools to spec - if you pay them less, get a lower quality product.

I believe really that they will make tools to whatever spec the customer aggressively tracks, monitors and enforces every little detail of; and as soon as there is a hint of flexibility or laxity in the oversight, will slip through lower quality where ever they think they can get away with. This includes things like "crimes of omission", where they will actively seek to work around the spec and poke holes where the inspectors may not be looking or may not have even thought to look. It is taking an approach of delivery of the least possible quality, rather than a good faith effort to meet or exceed the intent of the customer.

Re:Fallacy

[fahrbot-bot]

as soon as there is a hint of flexibility or laxity in the oversight, will slip through lower quality where ever they think they can get away with

That's my understanding. It's an East versus West thing - Eastern mindset is "if you don't catch me cheating I'm a clever businessman"

I think Wall Street thinks that too.

also a case for "Design in China"

[dfn5]

There are lots of Chinese tools that are the best in the world.

I’ve worked as an engineer in industry. The one common thread between a quality product and a bad product has always been this, ”Is the person who designed the product involved in making the product?”

This is not an argument for "Made in the USA". This is an argument for the design and manufacture should be in the same place. Therefore, this also makes the case for "Don't just export the manufacturing phase. Also export the designing phase."

Re:Capitalism in practice...

[fluffernutter]

There are a great many human values that an economic system could promote. Capitalism got none of them.

Re:Capitalism in practice...

[Penguinisto]

There are a great many human values that an economic system could promote. Capitalism got none of them.

Problem is, in practice, neither does any other system we've tried in human history.

Re:Capitalism in practice...

[siphonophore]

Education, for one, is sorely lacking. Here's an example of someone living a historically luxurious life without the faintest idea where it all comes from.

Re:is this even slashdot news?

[Farmer Tim]

And, if you are even a bit of a tinkerer or garage mechanic you also know that harbor freight crap is generally inferior to Snap On or MAC.

I disagree...last time I tried to use a MAC hammer the screen broke and the Thunderbolt port stopped working, and it didn't even drive the nail in properly.

Re:Neither

[RDW]

Once upon a time you might have written you prefer quality British-made tools, but they must be pretty thin on the ground now. I have an excellent Norbar torque wrench (Norbar apparently dates back to World War 2, when they made tools for the Merlin aero engine). A bit of Googling suggests that the wonderfully named 'King Dick Tools' are still making stuff here. I now have to go out and buy one of their products, partly to support British industry, but mainly so I can brandish a tool with 'King Dick' written on it.

Re:Big corp. execs think they're clever

[FrozenGeek]

Some years ago, the president of the company I worked for wrote a book on his management philosophy. In it, he noted that you should always be using your current job to leverage yourself into a better job and that if you were in the same position for more than 2 or 3 years, your career was stagnating. If that's a typical attitude for upper management (and I suspect it is), these folks are not making foolish mistakes. They are maximizing profit to leverage themselves into a better job somewhere else. If, after they move on, their former company craters, it's simply proof of how good they were.

Socialism does just fine

[rsilvergun]

anywhere it's been tried. What you were probably thinking of is the many, many Fascist Dictatorships that happened to use Karl Marx's books for rhetoric (Russia, China, North Korea, etc). Democratic Socialism works just fine, thank you very much.