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What's In a Tool? a Case For Made In the USA (hackaday.com)
szczys writes: You have the choice of buying a wrench made in the USA and one made in China. Which one should you buy? The question is not a straightforward one. Tools are judged by their ability to do the job repeatedly and without fail. To achieve this, only the best of design and manufacturing will do. But this is a high bar when you factor in price competition which often leads to outsourcing production. Gerrit Coetzee looks at this issue, comparing two instances of the same model of Crescent brand adjustable wrench; one a legacy manufactured in the USA, another outsourced for manufacture in China.
They were one of the most significant holdouts over the past decade or so, but they won't learn from their mistake. They could have learned from vise-grip, who could have learned from dremel, who could have learned from Stanley. Sears (Craftsman) could have learned from any or all of them, as could Husky and Kobalt.
They'll all just go the same way, only to lose the race to the bottom to Harbor Freight.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
"Tools are judged by their ability to do the job repeatedly and without fail" Not necessarily. I might just need it once, or for very light use. It is often true that you get what you pay for, but this doesn't mean you should pay for more than what you need.
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I wish the same were possible in the techology industry.. Buy a Samsung Galaxy made in China or one made in USA. I'd pay more for the USA one, personally. As long as the phone was like for like in specs and usability.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Unlike others I found this article well written and with a unique perspective. Defining requirements and tolerances is very important but far too often we overlook these steps and rush right into a project - get the PMO involved, assign a PM, purchase some widget we "need" and run setup. Project complete. Of course it doesn't meet the requirements of the user or customer, but we can't worry about that. We have more projects to "complete".
Who cares where it is produced? Price/performance ratio is important.
knows the answer to the question.
The stuff from China is cheap powdered metal with a surface coating to disguise the crap.
Swapping out products for an almost identical-looking Chinese copy made to order by some outsourcing factory. They think they'll be able to super-size their profit margins and people will keep buying their stuff. What they don't realise is that any old fool can order generic tools from China for pennies and their hollowed-out "design"-only office-based tool manufacturing company won't serve a purpose any longer.
Nothing against US made stuff but you pay extra because of the cost of shipping it half way around the world, and generally the exchange rate makes importing those goods expensive because the of the high US dollar.
Well then you must never have worked as an engineer on a product/scientific instrument/piece of software/whatever from start to finish like the author of TFA has. I have, and his observation of how crucial it is to communicate design intent down from the drafting room to the shop floor and forward in time from the conception to the execution is spot-on.
Any idiot can have a brilliant idea, but the follow-through to make sure it's realized the way it was conceived, and to make sure the conception keeps pace with physical reality...that's a learned skill that takes hands-on experience to master.
You don't want to use an OS on your computer or on your phone that's made by people who don't use computers or have never had a cell phone, so why should you want the physical fabrication of your phone handled by people who don't have a stake in using the product?
There are lots of Chinese tools that are the best in the world.
I’ve worked as an engineer in industry. The one common thread between a quality product and a bad product has always been this, ”Is the person who designed the product involved in making the product?”
This is not an argument for "Made in the USA". This is an argument for the design and manufacture should be in the same place. Therefore, this also makes the case for "Don't just export the manufacturing phase. Also export the designing phase."
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
There are a great many human values that an economic system could promote. Capitalism got none of them.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Tools are judged by their ability to do the job repeatedly and without fail.
That's not how anything is judged -- they are judged by expected TCO. And that TCO includes initial cost, minus expected performance but plus the expected value of failures multiplied by the cost of each failure. All of these vary by the job that the tool is being asked to do.
To give an example, if the wrench is going onto a deep-sea oil platform where replacement will be very costly and will cause very expensive delays, the last factor is very high and so reliability will be at a premium.
On the other hand, the local auto mechanic probably has a dozen wrenches and a parts truck that comes around every other day that can bring a new one in for nearly zero overhead. So she might be willing to accept a higher failure rate.
On yet another (third?) hand, someone working in aerospace or other sensitive area will likely need a wrench that can accurately deliver a set amount of torque. In this case, the accuracy of the tool will be the most important concern, since failure of the product (satellite, jet engine, space shuttle booster rocket clamp attachment) will be far more costly than failure of the tool.
So there you have it, three examples of how making general statements about how we judge things is complete bollocks. The "right tool for the right job" might be cliché but the lesson is less about picking the right tool and more about thinking about the properties that are priorities for the job.
Among all the stupid chauvinistic stories I read, this one tops all. Crescent wrenches are made all over the world, and the USA was not the first to manufacture one. The one I have has a scale, and I use it. Don't know where it was made, but judging its price it was not made in the USA.
Also, I have several PCs. My Macbook certainly performs worse and has more problems than the ALDI nameless that is my main computer. My cheap east-german, polish, taiwanese or chinese tools are as rugged and relieble as the expensive stuff that comes from America. This has been a pattern ever since I carried my Apple II to the attic.
The point I am making is that most cheap products that I buy (in Europe) are as good or better than the more expensive brand products. YMMV, but don't come with all kinds of mystic explanations.
Paai
Ok so I am British and I do have some "Made in USA" tools, a Metrinch socket set and spanners, but frankly I prefer quality German tools. You pay a bit more but you get reliable quality.
There are a great many human values that an economic system could promote. Capitalism got none of them.
Problem is, in practice, neither does any other system we've tried in human history.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Education, for one, is sorely lacking. Here's an example of someone living a historically luxurious life without the faintest idea where it all comes from.
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And, if you are even a bit of a tinkerer or garage mechanic you also know that harbor freight crap is generally inferior to Snap On or MAC.
I disagree...last time I tried to use a MAC hammer the screen broke and the Thunderbolt port stopped working, and it didn't even drive the nail in properly.
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I spent a number of years working in the plumbing industry. There were a lot of imports (more Korean in those days than Chinese, but the same principles apply) , and a lot of domestic production, and lots of opportunity to compare.
And the import stuff was all over the place in quality. The good stuff was every bit as good as the US made stuff. The cheap stuff was crap. The difference was in what the importer (the US company, that is) ordered. The difference in manufacturing is that the Korean factories had a lower level of quality they were willing to produce than their US counterparts, so they had a lower price. The importers, as often as not, had no clue what the difference was between a $1 pipe fitting and a $10 pipe fitting, so they ordered the cheap one. But if you ordered the good stuff, it was top quality. And top price, because it took just as many man hours to make in Korea as it did in the US. The man hours were cheaper, sure, but then you had to pay to ship it here, so it evened out. The top quality was about the same price, no matter where it was made.
The failure wasn't a disconnect between the designers and the factory, the failure was between US management and the real world.
Good tools cost more, whether made in USA or China. The author's point is that many tools made in China are crap, and they don't cost as much as good tools.
I have been turning wrenches for over 30 years. ASE certified Master Auto Technician with a BA in Applied Automotive Technologies. I do not buy Kobalt @ Lowes. I do not buy Husky @ Home Depot. The lowest I go is Craftsman @ Sears. There are some name brands that I buy because like the article says, the original manufacturer had personal input and desired a certain outcome. An example is Channel-Lock. They make the best adjustable slip joint pliers. Some times I do go to Harbor-Freight. To buy Channel-Lock pliers.
From a comment at TFA -
"Another thing that can give an idea of the scale of corruption in China. If you haven’t seen them, I highly recommend you look up the Chinese “ghost cities”, and be amazed. Entire cities – including upscale homes, apartments, malls, business complexes. Built only because government grants covering the cost of construction were available to developers. But they weren’t needed, there’s no one to actually occupy them (or perhaps no one who can afford to do so), and many are now crumbling due to disuse and neglect."
Because the highest value in socialism is politics and LOOKING like you're doing something... not making sure you make best use of your resources.
At least with capitalism there's feedback in the system so that when resources do get excessively wasted somebody can actually get in there, make more efficient use of them and... eat your lunch.
If you are adjusting packing glands on pumps or valves, it's fine. If, on the other hand you need torque, use the proper wrench. I have seen too much damage to bolts and nuts due to " adjustable wrenches ". The proper tool for the proper job. If you are too cheap or too lazy to use the proper tool, you get what you pay for.
The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
Voting with your dollar only works if you have a choice. If all companies have headed into the downward "cut costs at an costs" spiral then you have no real choice.
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It really depends, I have been finding myself more often spending a few extra dollars on quality.
If I am getting a hammer or a wrench, I look at the available ones and I really look at which is better built. Having a crappy tool, makes a job much harder then a quality one.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Ah yes, we've been through that routine before.
And to save yourselves a lot of grief, just buy Snap-On. Outside the U.S. buy Craftsman if you need the guarantee.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Tools are judged by their ability to do the job repeatedly and without fail. To achieve this, only the best of design and manufacturing will do
Utter rubbish - it sounds like "reassuringly expensive" - an amusing phrase when applied to lager (beer), but trite in the real world. Tools are judged on their ability to get the job done. Most normal people are origin-blind. They don't, nor should, care where a tool, device, object was made or sold from. Just so long as it's fit for purpose and cost-effective.
As for buy .... <name of country> this is little more than subsidising inefficient or lazy production and fooling yourself that you're a "patriot". Great if you a re a politician - who's main job is to fool the gullible and ill-informed. But for most people it's irrelevant. There are factors that come into play: support, warranty and spares. However, buying from a local producer is no guarantee that you'll get any of those and the internet makes everywhere as accessible as they choose to be, Buying from a known and trusted brand should be sufficient but since so much of the population just looks at the price, even brand recognition counts for little - and supplies the same - in these days of disposability.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
capitalism is the worst economic options thats for sure
except for all the others
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
The lowest I go is Craftsman @ Sears.
Well, Sears is circling the bowl, and Harbor Freight's polished wrenches are the same price as Sears' rough cheap ones, and have the same warranty. I like HF's socket sets more too, that colored coating may not last forever but it's fun while it does.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
If we import Chinese tools en masse because these can be cheaper, then these will be cheaper. Making tools is highly automated. A minimum investment in a better factory line, and you get better quality.
Many tools by European or us companies are made in China with the same quality as in Europe or US. There is no incentive of the "Made in China" no name tool makers to invest to make better tools, since buying European or western brands, but made in China with good quality is ok for the Chinese.
I remember such shit being said about China a decade ago "only the cheap electronics comes from there", but in reality this is not about competence, motivation or skill, but about market segments and trade.
The lowest I go is Craftsman @ Sears.
ETCG on Tools really sums up the situation. If you're going to low, just go to Harbor Freight. They are going to be around honoring warranties long after Sears is naught but a memory. The Mac and Snap-On tools are a little nicer to hold, and sometimes fit where other tools don't because they are a little smaller, but they're not all that amazing. People buy those tools because the truck shows up. On the other hand, they sell tools HF doesn't have. If I want cam locating fixtures for an Audi V8, Snap-On actually has those, and they're cheap for some reason.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I have been turning wrenches for over 30 years. ASE certified Master Auto Technician with a BA in Applied Automotive Technologies. I do not buy Kobalt @ Lowes. I do not buy Husky @ Home Depot. The lowest I go is Craftsman @ Sears. There are some name brands that I buy because like the article says, the original manufacturer had personal input and desired a certain outcome. An example is Channel-Lock. They make the best adjustable slip joint pliers. Some times I do go to Harbor-Freight. To buy Channel-Lock pliers.
The problem is the good stuff is harder to find. I have a number of 30+ old Snap On, Mac, Craftsman, Sun et. al. tools that I plan to pass on to the third generation to use. I rue the day one of my Craftsman tools breaks and Sears swaps it out for some cheaper made stuff they sell now. One thing about a well made tool, it just feels right when you hold it.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
American shit quality stuff is just as shit as Chinese shit quality stuff. The argument that U.S tools are better than other tools has never held up. It's like going into the Dollar-store and complaning that the stuff is cheap. You get what you pay for, no matter where it was made.
Not necessarily. If a tool is cheap enough, it becomes essentially disposable. Many things that used to be expensive and require expensive repairs are now simply thrown away when they are worn or obsolete.
Snap On Industrial owns Bahco, Williams, CDI. Apex Tool Group owns just about everyone else (Weller, Wiss, Sata, Nicholson, Cleco, Armstrong, Crescent, Gearwrench, Dotco, Lufkin, Allen, et al). A lot of those brands are made overseas in countries like China, India, Israel and more. My point being, you just don't know what you're getting unless you can put your hands on it and understand manufacturing & quality control. Unfortunately, most people don't. I believe this because I work in the industrial distribution business. I sell hand tools, metal cutting & forming tools and QC tools(including fixed-limit gaging). I sell from over 1500 different vendors. Some of the tools I see, and sell, are cheaply made. But most of those are for the consumer market. You truly get what you pay for these days no matter where they're made.
I think the term the author of the article is looking for is 'design criteria'.
I rarely post two responses to the same Slashdot article, but I've read everybody else's responses and nobody has yet mentioned the value of his or her time.
When buying the cheapest product, too many people do not factor in the value of their time.
Let's say that I buy a $10 tool instead of a $50 tool. If the $10 tool breaks, then I will probably waste a minimum of an hour of my time replacing it, not to mention wear and tear on my vehicle. To me an hour of my time is worth more than $40. Saving anything less than $50 on a tool that has the possibility of malfunctioning is a losing proposition.
Get yourself the best tool, and save yourself the grief of wasting your valuable time.
Additionally, nobody has mentioned the value of his or her physical or mental health. When a tool malfunctions, it takes a toll on you. Maybe the tool will only injure you slightly, but was it worth it? Stress hormones in your brain shorten your lifespan, so why make it hard on yourself by making your work more stressful due to malfunctioning tools? We are not machines with replaceable parts. We are fragile humans, physically and mentally.
The quality of Canadian Tire's Mastercraft brand is not too bad, better then recent Craftsman, and comes with a lifetime guarantee. Have some pretty good sales and gives you Canadian Tire money, which the local bar accepts at par. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
But people are too cheap to pay for quality.
Buy a real tool, keep it forever.
I didn't know that MAC was an acronym. I've worked on their computers several times and have never bother to ask what it stands for. Their website ins't much help ether. https://www.maccosmetics.com/
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
In almost every case I've found that tools made overseas (especially from China) are simply cheaper, less precise, and of a lower quality than the ones made in the US.
Sockets, ratchets, screwdrivers, wrenches, drill bits, calipers, hex keys, etc etc etc, the fact is that the Chinese versions are basically shit.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
when they're probably all owned by the same 50 or 60 people? I mean, you're stuck buying the tool anyway, and a cheap tool breaks and has to be replaced.
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anywhere it's been tried. What you were probably thinking of is the many, many Fascist Dictatorships that happened to use Karl Marx's books for rhetoric (Russia, China, North Korea, etc). Democratic Socialism works just fine, thank you very much.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
We sure made a lot of stuff under capitalism. I suppose whether you consider productivity a human virtue is in the eye of the beholder.
I recently bought some very expensive Armstrong (made in USA) ignition wrenches, hoping I'd get some very precisely formed tools. They were crap. Now days, Tekton tools are better quality than most consumer-grade tools.
I go through quite an ordeal to find quality tools for reasonable prices. For screwdrivers, its German made Wiha. For wrenches, sockets, and some other things, Tekton has taken the limelight.
For a .0005in resolution dial test indicator, I tried a Chinese one. It was crap. So I bought a second B&S BesTest on Ebay and got a good one.
Electronic pliers: Tronex (the very best there is), Erem, Xuron. Even the German brands have become crap now: CK and Xcelite. Larger wire cutting pliers by Swanstrom are very nice.
I just opted to not buy another set of cheap needle files, and instead bought a $70 set of Grobet/Teborg ones. Very worth it!
I tried an economy model Mitutoyo caliper to have a 2nd pair in addition to my good Mitutoyo calipers. It was crap. Now iGaging makes calipers for $40-$60 that are as repeatable and solid as good Mitutoyo. Maybe I won't trust them when .0005-.001 accuracy really matters, but for routine measures, they are great.
And that, kids, is why "knowledge" and "intelligence" are two different words.
Today's lesson was brought to you by the word disingenuous.
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A popular assignment to set students was to give them a reasonable quality tool and a poor quality tool to destructively test and compare. In some situations good enough gets the job done and in others a poor quality tool is not going to last as long or sometimes even do the job at all.
Yes, they could be doing all the tests in first year, but by second year they can get some understanding of why and which tests to select without being told.
" This includes things like "crimes of omission", where they will actively seek to work around the spec and poke holes where the inspectors may not be looking or may not have even thought to look. "
That is not a crime of omission it is a wqay to make a tool cheaper which is still up to the original spec. Everybody does it even in the US. Those who don't will offer the same spec for a higher price and same quality perceived and will therefor disappear by getting less of the market. This is especially visible in non tangible good like service and software. You spare where you can , getting cheaper, if only to bring more in for your shareholder. Anybody pretending this does not happen in the US (or EU or...) is fooling themselves.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
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That would be the Gripping Hand.
Guitars ,cars, tools,toys...but nowadays quality is associated with other countries....
I'd put Alembic, Fodera, Sadowsky, and Lull up against *anything* made anywhere else. Fender's USA instruments are usually pretty nice, although Gibson and Rickenbacker can be all over the place at times.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
There's always someone who is selling premium products, it's easy to shrug your shoulders and say you don't have a choice but it's very rarely true. As an example: you can still buy handmade scissors made in Sheffield though you won't find them in most major retailers because the can sell something that looks roughly the same for a tiny fraction of the price.
This is easier now than it was before. You can buy high quality online but that usually require you know what you are looking at. Even in store you can buy still sometimes find high quality tools if you go to a good sore. I recently bought an ax locally and the store had about 10 different axes from like 3 manufactures. The best made single bit ax there was the Estwing one with the one piece forged head and handle set in the molded shock absorbing rubber/plastic handle cover. It cost less than $10 more than the cheapest one that had an obviously cheaply cast head and poorly fitting hardwood, did not say hickory and didn't look like hickory, handle. I have a nice set of hammers and dollies that I got years ago that I think were Swedish, maybe German I forget, that I use for forming thin metal, and a few other nice blacksmithing hammers from Scandinavia and Germany.
That said there are some companies that have figured out that they can make their products look like they are high quality yet are shit. I had a pair of boots that looked like they were well made, triple stitched seams, stitched on sole thick leather. Turns out that they were just glued together and where it looked to be thick leather they had just glued another thin strip in there so they put in all sorts of effort to figure out how to make them look well made instead of just making them well. Those boots lasted less than 6 months.
Time to offend someone
"80% quality for 50% of the price" has long been the Chinese mantra and it works great for them. The "American" brand are also made in China so while they might be a bit rough around the edges, in general, they are still of comparable quality. Even true "USA made" tools are not worth the money for the average person. They tend to be way more expensive and the extra quality is simply not worth the price difference. If American based companies want to survive they need to learn to compete. They need to lower their prices to the point where the superior quality is worth it. Capitalism in action.
I got tired of buying XL socks only to find they were closer to medium. I finally found some made in the USA - not only do they fit - they are thicker and better made.
I do believe in "good-enough" Some imports are good enough - but cheap tools that break can also be more expensive when you add in the cost of repeated replacements.
I have found that Japanese and Taiwan machine tools tend to be of very high quality - compared to the China stuff.
Also - be aware that the safety features of imported machines can be missing - providing nightmares of law suites.
If there is sufficient interest in high quality tools at a higher price point, then new entrants will come into the market to meet the demand
Which is of course, nice, but he cites marketing material as an indicator. Now the thing is I know at least some places that still understand from a marketing standpoint what and how to say things to sound 'good'. Down to being able to put on a really good show about materials science and the very nitty gritty about caring and measuring to know what works great.
Then when it comes down to mfg time, that goes out the window and it's sadly apparent that the engineers enabling that understanding are given plenty of room to speak in a marketing situation, but not much actual control over the manufacture of the real product.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
That has been one thing that has disappointed me in brick and mortar. I rarely can find the good product I want on the shelves, even if I *were* willing to pay a premium to get it rather than online.
So I have to get online because the brick and mortar's just won't carry it. Instead they try to push cheap crap and hope the shoppers aren't doing any research.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Don't blame the tool. You were probably holding it wrong.
You have the choice of buying a wrench made in the USA and one made in China. Which one should you buy?
Obviously neither. I would by a german one or if not available one from Switzerland. Sweden steel should be good, too. At least it once was.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
I think a lot of B&M stores have realised that informed shoppers use them as a place to check out products before they buy them online from retailers who have significantly less overheads and therefore lower prices.
As such the B&M stores need to appeal to people who either;
a) Need something *NOW*
b) Are morons
In both cases, cheap crap fits the bill nicely.
I think its better stated to say that most tools are crap compared to the good ones. Also, today, most tools are made in China. Therefore most tools made in China are crap when compared to good tools.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
The sad thing is that when the products *do* appear both in store and online, the price delta doesn't strike me as *that* big. Shipping is actually more expensive for online vendor, and as the big players increase their footprint, the sales tax dodge goes away. Yes, there's more real estate, but in terms of manpower, it's actually not that much better for online (they need a bit more individual worker attention for putting together an order, in brick and mortar a lot of that is 'self service).
Of course, this is just guesswork, the final measure is that for products in both places is frequently in the same price area.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
And how about, "AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!"
My guess is "Anal-retentives Anonymous' Assinine And Humourless Holy Hubristic Heavy Handed Half Hearted Health Harming Hardly Human Horrid Hopeless Hapless Helpless Haphazard Hierarchy".
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How do they get money to start up? "Gee Mr. Investor/Banker I want to spend a huge amount of money designing tools and contracting and/or building factories in hopes of selling an expensive product in a saturated market where demand for premium products has not been proven".
That's a tough sell.
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