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An Ancient, Brutal Massacre May Be the Earliest Evidence of War

HughPickens.com writes: Violence has always been part of human behavior, but the origins of war are hotly debated. Some experts see it as deeply rooted in evolution, pointing to violent confrontations among groups of chimpanzees as clues to an ancestral predilection while others emphasize the influence of complex and hierarchical human societies, and agricultural surpluses to be raided. Now James Gorman writes in the NY Times that scientists have discovered a site in Africa dated about 10,000 years ago where a group of hunter-gatherers attacked and slaughtered another, leaving the dead with crushed skulls, embedded arrow or spear points, and other devastating wound. It's not clear that anyone was spared at the Nataruk massacre. Of the 27 individuals found, eight were male and eight female, with five adults of unknown gender. The site also contained the partial remains of six children. Twelve of the skeletons were in a relatively complete state, and ten of those showed very clear evidence that they had met a violent end. In the paper, the researchers describe "extreme blunt-force trauma to crania and cheekbones, broken hands, knees and ribs, arrow lesions to the neck, and stone projectile tips lodged in the skull and thorax of two men." Four of them, including a late-term pregnant woman, appear to have had their hands bound. "These human remains record the intentional killing of a small band of foragers with no deliberate burial, and provide unique evidence that warfare was part of the repertoire of inter-group relations among some prehistoric hunter-gatherers," says Dr Marta Mirazon.

The killers carried weapons they wouldn't have used for hunting and fishing, including clubs of various sizes and a combination of close-proximity weapons like knives and distance weapons, including the arrow projectiles she calls a hallmark of inter-group conflict. " This suggests premeditation and planning," says Mirazon Lahr. Other, isolated examples of period violence have previously been found in the area, and those featured projectiles crafted of obsidian, which is rare in the area but also seen in the Nataruk wounds. This suggests that the attackers may have been from another area, and that multiple attacks were likely a feature of life at the time. "This implies that the resources the people of Nataruk had at the time were valuable and worth fighting for, whether it was water, dried meat or fish, gathered nuts or indeed women and children. This shows that two of the conditions associated with warfare among settled societies—control of territory and resources—were probably the same for these hunter-gatherers, and that we have underestimated their role in prehistory."

151 comments

  1. Not at all by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There were wars long before humans. Even termites and ants exhibit such behavior. We are not special snowflakes who invented the idea.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There were wars long before humans. Even termites and ants exhibit such behavior. We are not special snowflakes who invented the idea.

      Well, first, you're implying that often misunderstood idea that humans are somehow the most evolved, and that ants that exist today are unchanged from before humans existed.

      But that aside, when was the last time you saw an organized intraspecies war among birds? Or mice? Or fish? Just because others do something does not make it universal.

    2. Re:Not at all by dadelbunts · · Score: 2

      I saw some crows beat the shit out of some brown birds the other day

    3. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You know that's not war, right? When some guys kick their dogs, CNN doesn't send in a war correspondent to Alabama.

    4. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be interspecies war, of which there are many examples to be had.

    5. Re:Not at all by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But we're as far as I know the only species that hunts and kills each other for no other reason than for fun. With every other species you can point to a logical reason to kill another member of your own species, be it competition for food, mating rights, territory or even to eat the competitor.

      We need no such petty reasons. We just do it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Not at all by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, and nor are we some enlightened animal so far removed from barbarism that it's unthinkable.

      What people fail to understand is this kind of stuff has always been with humanity, and 'civilization' is a relatively new and thin veneer over humanity.

      Why people think this was an invention which came much later is beyond me, we started as animals, and in all the important ways, we still are animals.

      But then people act all surprised and think war and violence was a modern invention ... our limbic system says we directly evolved from things with not much more advanced impulses than a lizard ... eat, survive, fuck.

      It's an intrinsic property, and when push comes to shove, we'll revert back to it pretty quickly. Having higher brain functions doesn't mean those other things have gone away.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    7. Re:Not at all by JazzLad · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Cats do too. Yes, that is a silly piece, not to be taken too seriously, but Google cats kill for fun and see 7M results, not all humour.

      --
      "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
    8. Re:Not at all by JazzLad · · Score: 1

      Ahh, hit send too soon, I may have misunderstood & you meant only killing the same species. In that case, mea culpa :)

      --
      "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
    9. Re:Not at all by vel-ex-tech · · Score: 1

      food, mating rights, territory or even to eat the competitor

      Let me add natural resources, and then my sig borrowed from Fallout fully applies. War never changes.

    10. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... competition for food, mating rights, territory or even to eat the competitor ...

      It's a sweeping statement and a dishonest one to say humans don't have a reason for killing. Unlike other animals, humans can kill their own species for reasons outside their primal instincts, such as for fun. Other animals kill for fun, just not their own species.

    11. Re:Not at all by khallow · · Score: 1

      But we're as far as I know the only species that hunts and kills each other for no other reason than for fun. With every other species you can point to a logical reason to kill another member of your own species, be it competition for food, mating rights, territory or even to eat the competitor.

      Well, if you just killed someone for fun. they aren't competing for your food, mating rights, or territory, and you always have the option to eat them. And should you ever have to kill someone for logical reasons (which would have been a rather common thing in many cultures of the past), then you have more practice at it.

    12. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      admit it, you didn't read the article, did you?

    13. Re:Not at all by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      I've raised chickens and they seem to do it. I had one chicken where the others ganged up on it and pecked out its side. The was a huge hole where you could see all of its organs. That chicken lived another 6 months like that, but with some sort of scab growing over.

    14. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What people fail to understand

      `People' don't "fail to understand." They're taught the wrong understanding.

      "Violence never solves anything." "Violence begets violence". "Thou shalt not kill." Pablum we feed each other from birth.

      Why people think this was an invention which came much later is beyond me

      It's really remarkable such a simple concept has escaped you. Have you been under a rock somewhere? Our world is governed by people that are convinced violence is the exclusive fault of greedy capitalist, white Christians and their military industrial complex. But for them the world would be a big happy romper room, and before the advent of these cretins there was only peace.

      That is the mentality we impart to children. How can it possibility be a surprise to you that they believe it?

      We're told our ancestors were all vegan. I've been hearing that tripe my entire life. Yet every ancient habitation we've found is festooned with arrow heads and axes. Skeletal remains — animal and human — are covered in tool marks and damaged by pointed weapons. My digestive system processes large quantities of meat just fine. And so does yours, regardless of what you've allowed yourself to be convinced of.

      You're been fed bullshit by bullshit artists that don't like your nature and would rather you suppress it. Having fully inculcated that bullshit, you're convinced everyone else has as well.

      We haven't. Not all of us. Stop assuming you're some special snowflake with a unique insight. You're not.

    15. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Do unto others before others do unto you"

    16. Re:Not at all by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Cats do too. Yes, that is a silly piece, not to be taken too seriously, but Google cats kill for fun and see 7M results, not all humour.

      And the owners are responsible for a massive species extinction because they think their cat doesn't do that. If people have to lock dogs up - why should it be different for cats. Maybe we need a war on irresponsible pet ownership!

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    17. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He not only read the article, he drank the fucking bong water afterwards!

    18. Re: Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's called a pecking order for a reason. Chickens have a complex hierarchical social structure. If a chicken doesn't respect the existing structure it either becomes the boss or is killed trying.

    19. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'll get no argument from me :) -Jazz (mobile)

    20. Re:Not at all by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1
      So what does that have to do with the topic under discussion, which is war? Oh, right, nothing.

      How is "fun" not a logical reason? It improves survivability skills.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    21. Re:Not at all by rtb61 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There is more of a logical twist in the growth of human conflict. In more social minded era, the desire to not kill fellow humans resulted in the most server punishment being permanent exile from the tribe and the individual being left eventual die alone exposed to the wilderness without any support. This tended to work fine until population densities became high enough so that exiles could find each. So the inevitably psychopathic plotting a scheming kicked it and results in the obvious, the take over of a normal tribe and killing off many males, enslaving the rest and raping of the females and a new psychopathic tribe was created (the penultimate example being spartans and the helots, warrior and slave culture). Cant have to many psychopaths otherwise they of course tear themselves apart and of course the lazy fuckers don't want to do any real work, just beat people up until they do the work for them and of course rape women as a leisure activity.

      Inevitably as psychopath numbers grew by rape, so those psychopathic tribes either attacked and took over other tribes or self destructed. Something that still be can be seen to this day. The psychopaths grow in percentage and either continue to expand the range of the society they control or those societies collapse due to excessive predation on the environment or on the non psychopaths who do all the work (they continually need to bring in more non psychopaths to do the work as they are bred out, for being less competitive in psychopathic societies, so increased territory or immigration). The greater the proportion of psychopaths the quicker the collapse, unless growth is maintained, the greater the number the worse and far more violent the outcome, it is just their inherent genetic nature (those same genetic anti-social defects can and do occur in other species and those individual are similarly ostracised but lack the ability to collude togethor to take over via murder and reproduce via rape).

      The most awful glaring modern example of this, American Republicans refusing abortions for victims of rape, an inherent requirement of the psychopathic reproduction cycle (in modern terms either direct rape or economic rape, using economic dominance to force unwilling reproduction partners to breed with psychopaths).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    22. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If anything, I think we're _less_ violent in present times than in past history. The terrorist bombings we see, historically speaking, are a joke. Try living under the constant fear of your neighbour state sending in tens of thousands or more to kill/enslave/torture/rape/etc the population. Or on a smaller scale the superstitious religions burning people at the stake. People walking around with daggers and swords as a matter of common practice.

    23. Re:Not at all by davester666 · · Score: 1

      We didn't invent it. We just worked real hard to do it the best, at least here on Earth.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    24. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Utter bullshit. "We're told our ancestors are all vegan" - you say, linking to a Scientific American article that says, in short, "most human ancestors ate more vegetables than meat".

      And the idea that violence is bad actually underpins both Christianity and capitalism. They're both, by intent, designed as ways to reduce conflict. And to an extent, they've both been successful in that aim - at some levels, at some times, and within some scopes - but not without unintended side effects.

      If you've been hearing too many simplistic arguments, then maybe you need to stop hanging out with simpletons. Because it's rubbing off on you.

    25. Re:Not at all by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      But we're as far as I know the only species that ...

      Only because you don't know enough about other species...

    26. Re:Not at all by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      What people fail to understand is...

      Which people?

      Why people think this...

      Which people?

      But then people act...

      I'm not sure who these people are that you keep talking about?

      It's an intrinsic property, and when push comes to shove, we'll revert back to it pretty quickly. Having higher brain functions doesn't mean those other things have gone away.

      All our higher brain function does is make us better at it. Don't think for one moment that any other species wouldn't do the same if only they knew how.

    27. Re:Not at all by antdude · · Score: 1

      War!! :P

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    28. Re: Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chicken are mafiosi. They must have evolved in Italy.

    29. Re: Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's a server punishment? At best revoking of privileges, at worst derezzing?

    30. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why people think this was an invention which came much later is beyond me, we started as animals, and in all the important ways, we still are animals.

      I'll explain why people think that given that I've taken the trouble of reading some books, rather than just ranting on Slashdot about other people's stupidity.

      The accepted idea, which this paper tries to overthrow, is that until the beginning of agriculture there wasn't much of a reason to fight. Human densities were quite low and food was available. As such, if one group tried, for whatever reason, to take the territory of another, it was easier just to flee than to risk confrontation. That is the reason this comes as a surprise and merits an article in such an important scientific journal as Nature.

      It is known that people that moved from hunter-gathering to agriculture had poorer diets, were smaller, and had more diet/hunger -related diseases than the hunter-gatherers. Even today, (close to) hunter-gatherer societies have little trouble finding food. As such, there seems to be no problem with the reasoning that food was abundant. Perhaps scientists have been wrong all along thinking people wouldn't be willing to fight for it, and this case seems to bring some credit to that theory. However, it makes more sense to me (Occam's Razor and all) that his was just some sort of an isolated incident. There are assholes everywhere. Or maybe there was indeed something worth fighting for over there and these people were ambushed.

      But then people act all surprised and think war and violence was a modern invention ... our limbic system says we directly evolved from things with not much more advanced impulses than a lizard ... eat, survive, fuck.

      It's an intrinsic property, and when push comes to shove, we'll revert back to it pretty quickly. Having higher brain functions doesn't mean those other things have gone away.

      Yes, our limbic system tells us to eat, survive and mate. Gratuitous fighting over food that has no special intrinsic value over any other food source violates the second rule of our limbic system. So, there's no good reason to fight over food which you haven't planted and tended for, and is growing freely in trees... hence the idea that actual warring started with agriculture. After all, you don't see any other animals actually engaging in long term conflicts either. And if your comment is "well, maybe there was no food available!" the generally accepted answer is that hunter-gatherers have such little possessions that they can just move to another area to look for food. And having higher brain functions tells you, once again, that in a normal situation that is preferable to confrontation. As before, surviving to eat more and eventually mate. So what was the problem in this specific case? I have no idea, but maybe there were external factors. Maybe there were going through an extreme drought and food was indeed too scarce, which sets a different background to this whole story. Maybe this area had the best fruits ever! I guess we'll never know. But this is just one small bit of information, it doesn't make us a bunch of assholes that have to kill each other because of our limbic systems.

    31. Re:Not at all by MaxSmoke · · Score: 2

      But we're as far as I know the only species that hunts and kills each other for no other reason than for fun.

      Chimpanzees do the same and are actually more violent than humans.

    32. Re:Not at all by jandersen · · Score: 1

      The point of this article is not that it is amazing to find that people in the mesolithic waged war - it would be surprising if they didn't, as you pint out. The interesting thing is that we have found fossils that most likely are the remains of such a war - it may allow us to study what they did, what weapons were used etc. Just like when we found fossilised remains of raptor nests - we knew they must have existed in some form, but now we have data instead of speculations.

    33. Re:Not at all by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Oh we have reasons, just different ones.

      Land, oil, resources, money, and allegiance to an imaginary friend.

    34. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Usually it's about dominance or resources. Sometimes it's about wanting to break off from another group. it's not "for fun" on a mass scale.

    35. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clearly you are not acquainted with animal behavior. If you can describe homicide as being for fun you can do it for animals as well. Just because someone has fun doing something does not mean that other motivations like competition are not involved.

    36. Re:Not at all by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Capitalism is a means of acquiring power. By pooling resources, it becomes possible to do things that an individual could not do on his/her own.

      One of the most common applications of power is to control, suppress, or exterminate those whose presence or existence are inconvenient.

      I don't see anything in there that could imply reduced conflict unless you mean the "reduced conflict" you get from slaves and the dead.

      Or are you one of those who think that Capitalism = Free Market?

      A truly free market discourages conflict because conflict disrupts trading. But capitalism itself often destroys a free market, because commonly the end result of a capital-leveraged concern is monopoly as the process feeds back into itself, with the successful gaining more and more assets (power), which, in turn facilitates gaining even more power.

    37. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for catching some link abuse by the other poster.

      However

      When you say that Christianity and capitalism were intentionally designed as ways to reduce conflict I believe a citation is needed. Well a lot of citations are needed as clearly both have been intimately joined with conflict.

    38. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The original religious text that Christianity commands Christians be quite non-violent even to the point that they should die and be a martyr rather than revolt against an anti-Christian regime. Over history a number of theocratic organizations have used a combination of illiteracy, active suppression of the original text, and when those failed suppression of actual understanding of the text to foment politically motivated violence under the guise of Christianity. The original text was indeed intentionally designed to reduce conflict.

    39. Re: Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if we bred that into them. After all if you have a grainery you want your cats killing vermin even when they aren't hungry.

    40. Re:Not at all by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      Even worse, the human female seems to have been eugenically bred to possess increased sexual response and increased fertility in a prolonged multi-partner sex event like gang rape. Just read the research on time to orgasm (longer than single male partner's time to ejaculate), orgasm response increasing fertility, female sexual response to violence, involuntary orgasm during rape, etc.

      Scary when you start to think about how our early, violent evolution is represented in our phenotype today. Frank talk about this is probably a thoughtcrime in the US though.

      Thank goodness there hasn't always been the option of abortion for rape, otherwise none of us would exist. Every human on earth is, I am quite certain, descended from rape at one time or another.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    41. Re:Not at all by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      But we're as far as I know the only species that hunts and kills each other for no other reason than for fun. With every other species you can point to a logical reason to kill another member of your own species, be it competition for food, mating rights, territory or even to eat the competitor.

      We need no such petty reasons. We just do it.

      Citation needed. Also, define "fun."

      My experience and research says "fun" is an inadequate descriptor of the motivations that lead to violence, murder, and even rape. "Curiosity" would be the closest to "fun" I have heard, but most violent acts (especially murder) have a reason far removed from mere entertainment.

      Interesting fact: The greatest common factor of those on death row in the US? Blackouts. Not "propensity to hunt for fun", but blackouts. Also associated with traumatic brain injury, noted by a history of concussions or other head injuries.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    42. Re:Not at all by Reziac · · Score: 2

      Consider that wherever there are now domestic cats, there used to be a host of other predators -- weasels, mink, bobcats, skunks, raccoons, foxes, etc, etc. If anything, there is now less predation than before, because cats are not as efficient at arboreal predation, are rather more size-limited (unlike a mink or weasel, cats are not good at predating larger animals) and don't do underground predation at all.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    43. Re:Not at all by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Most predators kill for sport. Wolves particularly enjoy a night with a flock of sheep. I've had cats that spent all their time killing vermin and never ate any of it. (One managed to completely exterminate the local gopher population in about six months.)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    44. Re: Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is silly. Silly silly silly.

    45. Re:Not at all by lhowaf · · Score: 1

      Wow, that sounds like it was just made up on the spot!

    46. Re:Not at all by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      How do you determine the emotional state of an animal? When a single dog or a pack kills another dog, is it having fun? When in a feeding frenzy a one of school of sharks gets shredded, are the others having fun?

      Generally, a human who kills for fun is considered to be mentally diseased, mentally defective, a monster. Claiming that humans kill for fun when only the defective humans do that is akin to saying "pipes leak" when actually only defective pipes leak.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    47. Re:Not at all by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      You are confusing Republicans with certain religious zealots. The sets overlap, but neither set is a superset of the other.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    48. Re:Not at all by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Yours is a typical anticapitalistic mentality. You identify "pooling resources" and can't see that it implies "reduced conflict."

      Capitalism is the protection of rights viewed from an economic perspective.

      The term "capitalism" was coined by Karl Marx as a sly libel, implying that money is the sole motivator of the whole system.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    49. Re:Not at all by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      "What people fail to understand is..."

      Which people?

      Well, let's start with anthropologists (this is in the second link):

      The origins of warfare are controversial: whether the capacity for organised violence occurs deep in the evolutionary history of our species, or is a symptom of the idea of ownership that came with the settling of land and agriculture.

      Who apparently, in some cases, believe we created warfare as a social construct.

      "Why people think this..."

      Which people?

      And then we move into FAR too many modern people who seem to think that we've evolved past violence as a species, and that when it happens it's an outlier.

      People actually think humans are not inately violent.

      All our higher brain function does is make us better at it. Don't think for one moment that any other species wouldn't do the same if only they knew how.

      What the fuck do you think I said?

      I'm saying both academically, and philosophically, a lot of humans seem to make the assertion that humans are innately kind and cuddly. I am of the opinion that is bullshit.

      I'm saying humans evolved from animals with a capacity for violence, and just because we wear pants and have smartphones doesn't change the millions of years of evolution which still leaves us with a vast capacity to be little more than animals when push comes to shove.

      That there are lots of people with schools of though which attempts to claim violence is something we invented, I find to be an absurd idea. Because the animals we evolved from had that capacity, and the modern primates in the jungle have that capacity.

      My entire premise is that civilization and evolution are very thin buffers between being what we actually are: smart animals whose capacity for violence is neither new, nor is it gone.

      I'm not saying anything new or revolutionary. We're not even fucking disagreeing. But don't act like I'm making up some fucking straw man argument to tear down.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    50. Re:Not at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Global Warming pushed them. Its true.

    51. Re:Not at all by JustSomeProgrammer · · Score: 2
      I'll just leave this here: http://www.bbc.com/news/scienc...

      Felines accompanying their human companions have gone on to prey on the local wildlife, and they have been blamed for the global extinction of 33 species.

      Cats don't just replace the local predators. They are better at killing than most other small predators. And they are also sadistic bastards who will torture prey before they kill them. They may not bring down moose, but everything smaller than them is just a toy to be killed.

      I have two cats. The male is definitely a murderer. Nothing smaller than him can come into the apartment without being killed. And as I bought him to be a mouse catcher, I'm pretty much OK with this. But I wouldn't let him outside.

    52. Re:Not at all by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      My entire premise is that civilization and evolution are very thin buffers between being what we actually are: smart animals whose capacity for violence is neither new, nor is it gone.

      I'm not saying anything new or revolutionary. We're not even fucking disagreeing. But don't act like I'm making up some fucking straw man argument to tear down.

      Ok we're on the same page then. I might've had a few beers before posting that last post. Apologies.

    53. Re:Not at all by Reziac · · Score: 2

      Ya know, it's not fair to lay it on the cats when they're brought into a closed environment, like an island, that previously lacked efficient predators (and where lack of evolution to support predator pressure makes for an easily-killed prey population), as is often the cited case -- that's just not comparable to a larger environment, like, say, North America, with a broad spectrum of native predators and where the only real displacement has been in urban areas.

      And cats are sure as hell not better at killing stuff than weasels, mink, and fox.

      And having experienced both urban Los Angeles where there are lots of feral cats, and remote wilderness where there are NO cats -- the urban area has FAR more songbirds and small vermin, because there the ONLY significant predator is cats. But out in the wilderness, you get the whole range of predators.

      So tell me ... how many creatures would be killed by other predators, vs how many are killed by cats? shall we do away with all the cats and bring back other predators, and find out?? cuz every time I see this "cats are the problem" thing, NEVER do we see comparisons against the wild predators that no longer exist in urban environments. Nor does it account for that feline populations are pretty much limited to where man has already changed the environment. Which is really responsible for previous species going away??

      There have been studies that noted that if it weren't for feral cats keeping the rat population in check, rats would quickly exterminate urban birds, because rats climb into nests and feed on eggs and hatchlings. (This was also my observation in an area where the cats got eaten by owls and the rats got out of hand... pretty soon there were no birds left. Not even starlings.)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    54. Re:Not at all by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      By your definition, jihadis banding together to create ISIS "reduces conflict". Most of us are looking at a larger world. A group of investors is only one company, not the entirety of either the market, civilization, or the world.

      Nor is "Capitalism" a libel. It's a scientifically accurate description of a particular way of setting up an endeavor - usually, but not always a business. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a Capitalist - I've raised capital myself to the advantage of myself and my fellow investors. But it's a tool, not a God to be worshipped or defended like the name of Allah.

      Capitalism is NOT a religion and it's not something that is inherently tied to a free market (which is ALSO not a religion). Nor is it the only way of doing business by a long stretch.

      Making gods of inanimate forces doesn't make you any less primitive than if you worship the rain or the sun.

    55. Re:Not at all by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Ya know, it's not fair to lay it on the cats when they're brought into a closed environment,

      No one is blaming the cats, it is their nature to be a predator. Blame the owners of the cats who won't acknowledge the cats natural instinct to be a hunter and won't keep their cats from going outside without supervision and for people who dump cats in the bush where they go feral. The situation where I live is different from you and the evidence of cats driving species to extinction is plain to see.

      Nor does it account for that feline populations are pretty much limited to where man has already changed the environment. Which is really responsible for previous species going away??

      Ultimately humans, for introducing the cats to where they don't belong and for not keeping them indoors.

      There have been studies that noted that if it weren't for feral cats keeping the rat population in check, rats would quickly exterminate urban birds, because rats climb into nests and feed on eggs and hatchlings. (This was also my observation in an area where the cats got eaten by owls and the rats got out of hand... pretty soon there were no birds left. Not even starlings.)

      That would be interesting to read if you could send a link to what you mean. Where I am we have plenty of species that eat rats but few eat cats. Rats don't hunt like cats hunt. I have watched a cat chase a rabbit into a moving car and you could see the cat timing the angle and speed of the attack to produce that result of the rabbit being hit by the car. That to me indicated a pretty sophisticated predator so native species have very little chance against them here.

      For what reason should a cat to be allowed to roam off the property of their owner? Do you have a specific objection to people keeping their cats inside the house and building enclosures for them to wander in outside?

      http://www.australiangeographi...

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/201...

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    56. Re:Not at all by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Both articles are a lot of vague handwringing. If Australian criteria for "endangered" is anything like what it is in the U.S., it's probably just as bogus. Examples that leap to mind: The spotted owl -- miscounted (it was WAG'd that the population density would be much greater than their natural density of about one pair per square mile, and they were only counted in a very small assumed range even tho they occur all along the west coast) and misconstrued (it's actually a color variant of the barred owl, not a separate species at all). The kangaroo rat (counted during daylight; it's nocturnal) which is actually common enough in the desert to be a pest. The timber wolf ("critically endangered" in the U.S.; funny how if you merely cross the border into Canada, it's a very common species despite intensive hunting pressure). The red wolf (not a species at all, but due to occasional crossbreeding of coyote and wolf in areas where coyotes have the tanpoint color gene).

      It also forgets that species naturally go extinct all the time, regardless of what humans (or cats) do. Habitats change; another species arises (or arrives) and is more successful. Natural selection doesn't care if the process is due to humans (or felines); inability to adapt to a new pressure, whatever that may be, leads to decline and eventual extinction, and something else fills the same niche. Nature is not the static snapshot that some folks would like to believe. If it were, mammoths and sabertooths would roam the streets of Los Angeles.

      I don't particularly object to keeping your cats home, but unless you've still got all your other predators, you will soon suffer the consequences as a plague of small vermin, whether "native" (which often merely means "arrived before we started counting") or introduced (check out the videos of mouse swarms in Australia). As to keeping cats confined, cats are not like dogs that generally adapt well to confinement; most don't tether well, and being kept exclusively indoors makes normal young cats stir-crazy; from a breeding standpoint, confinement tends to select for a neurotic, fearful temperament that wants to do nothing but hide in the nearest hole and attack anyone who comes near it. If you can manage to bird-net a large yard (don't forget to roof it) that would suffice. Yeah, that's gonna fly, especially where there are HOAs...

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    57. Re:Not at all by MrKaos · · Score: 1
      I don't think anyone is going to convince you that it's a cat's nature is to hunt and kill, no matter how big or small. Probably because you love cat's and don't want to believe they can do that much damage.

      The issue is not whether cat's are or are not responsible, the issue is responsible pet ownership. Cat's are beautiful animals and wonderful companions for people, however they are not toy's and many get dumped. When they are feral, they are quite vicious and, they are as equal an issue as other introduced predatorial species.

      It's not the animal's fault, it's people's fault for not controlling them. I have several friends who have cat enclosures that extend inside and outside of the house. That is them accepting the responsibly of owning a cat and the steward ship of other animals that aren't pets. I've got nothing against people owning pets and controlling them in their own home, birds in cages, cat's in houses and dogs in back yards or laundries and on a leash elsewhere.

      Outside of the confines of a domestic situation they are to be destroyed, including rabbits, foxes, pythons, cane toads, minor birds and anything else humans have introduced into habitat where they don't belong. Hopefully that might give native species a bit of help surviving and adapting and it's the least we can do considering how often we have fucked up this way.

      Saying any pet with predatorial instincts released into the wild won't hunt or kill is like saying they won't get hungry or use their natural instincts to survive.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    58. Re:Not at all by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Actually, I don't especially like cats. I like *some* cats, the ones that behave more like domesticated animals and less like wild beasts. And I'm quite familiar with feral cats, and predator species of various sorts.

      What I'm saying, that you don't seem to get and is roundly ignored by people who decry predation by cats, is that cats only partially (and inadequately) replaced other predators that no longer exist in these environments; cats didn't suddenly arrive in a predator-free situation (exceptions noted for isolated islands where medium and larger predators failed to arrive or evolve -- remember the species already there invaded too, if much longer ago).

      Indeed, a great many birds and rodents take full advantage of the relative safety of man-and-cats vs every-other-predator. Yeah, cats kill shit. So did a dozen other predators that no longer live where man (and cats) do.... and which killed a lot more shit than all the cats civilization can muster, feral or domestic.

      And cats generally don't survive away from human influence. Other predators think they're very tasty and all too easily caught. Cripes, in the desert I couldn't grow cats fast enough to keep the owl and coyote buffet stocked. Every cat that went outside the fence got eaten.

      Further, if one looks at wild cat species and the fact that some freely interbreed with domestic cats, it's clear the line between 'em is at best fuzzy and possibly artificial, much like the line between dogs and wolves (functionally different breeds of the same species).

      So it's basically the same argument as "people shouldn't be allowed to roam the woods and freely kill deer, because it's hard on the deer population", and meanwhile humans have run most of the other large predators out, and in some of the more-settled states there are now up to 10 times as many deer as in a wild environment with the more-usual array of large predators.

      Funny how the same people who decry free-roaming cats usually support "wolf reintroduction" in the western U.S. (Canadian grey wolves were never native here in the first place, and have killed off the formerly-healthy population of native timber wolves), and scream bloody murder when we shoot the surplus (there are now about 4x as many wolves as the prey population can support).

      Did you know coyotes are not native to most of North America? Evidence is that they followed man across the continent, and in fact some started as feral Indian dogs (there's a lot of domestic dog DNA, from about 2000 years ago, in the coyote population). Now what??

      Balances change. Nature is not static, and humans and their associated creatures are part of the dynamic. And considering that in an urban or suburban setting you will have either free-roaming cats, or assloads of rats and mice, which do you choose?? Maybe you'd prefer to import weasels, foxes, and skunks. Rabies ahoy!!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    59. Re:Not at all by MrKaos · · Score: 1
      I think we are talking about different scenarios. I appreciate the description of your locale, mine is different.

      cats didn't suddenly arrive in a predator-free situation (exceptions noted for isolated islands where medium and larger predators failed to arrive or evolve -- remember the species already there invaded too, if much longer ago).

      This is exactly what has happened in my locale.

      And cats generally don't survive away from human influence. Other predators think they're very tasty and all too easily caught. Cripes, in the desert I couldn't grow cats fast enough to keep the owl and coyote buffet stocked. Every cat that went outside the fence got eaten.

      Where I live, every cat that gets into the wild, breeds more cats. I used to hunt to help the farmers out (mainly with wild rabbits, goats, pigs and foxes) and they would carry a ball pean hammer to deal with the nasty little bastards.

      Cats are very successful predators here and there are too many of them killing off the parrots, marsupials.

      And considering that in an urban or suburban setting you will have either free-roaming cats, or assloads of rats and mice, which do you choose??

      We have several species of owls, kookaburras, kingfishers, hawks, magpies and surprisingly, ducks, that all love to eat mice and rats

      Maybe you'd prefer to import weasels, foxes, and skunks. Rabies ahoy!!

      We have a lot of foxes, pythons already. Hunting fox is pretty hard and kind of funny

      Funny how the same people who decry free-roaming cats usually support "wolf reintroduction" in the western U.S.

      I don't. I think it's fucking stupid. Here it's people saying that about saltwater crocodiles and if you've ever seen a 5 metre croc jump out of the water you understand primal fear. So wolf's - no - it's a bad idea as well.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  2. Who would have guessed? by ls671 · · Score: 1

    Who would have guessed? I must have all started with Adam and Eve apple...

    --
    Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    1. Re:Who would have guessed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Earth is only 6000 years old. How could there possibly be war prior the Earth existing!

    2. Re:Who would have guessed? by Opportunist · · Score: 0

      This may be hard for you to swallow, but there was an Earth before its alleged creator was created.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Who would have guessed? by sycodon · · Score: 1

      No different than Chicago or DC.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    4. Re:Who would have guessed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This may be hard for you to swallow, but the AC was being sarcastic.

  3. Monolith by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So they discovered those killed by Moongazer's tribe?

  4. How about an article describing how to insert .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about an article describing how to insert your head into various orifices, and through various openings..
    We are not kids.
    This is not news for nerds as the title of the website suggests..

    Another slow news day, DHI??

    Pfft
    !

  5. I'm not saying it was aliens...... by Major+Blud · · Score: 4, Funny

    But it was aliens using obsidian tipped arrows and clubs to cover up the fallout from a failed genetic experiment....

    --
    If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
    1. Re:I'm not saying it was aliens...... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Why not do like god? Don't like the outcome, just flush it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:I'm not saying it was aliens...... by blazer1024 · · Score: 1

      What's the point of an obsidian-tipped club? :D

    3. Re:I'm not saying it was aliens...... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      What's the point of an obsidian-tipped club? :D

      Consistency. You dont get to fly 100,000 light years to fuck around with the genes on an alien planet unless at least some of you are completely OCD.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  6. War was not invented 10k years ago by Lluc · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The title is pretty honest: this is early evidence of war. I agree that we likely cannot observe too many battlegrounds 10,000 years later. The annoying thing about these reporting on this article is that it makes it sound like humans invented war 10,000 years ago! A human 10,000 years ago is virtually identical to us today, so why would we expect them any less capable or motivated to commit mass murder than someone today?

    1. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by alvinrod · · Score: 5, Informative

      We've observed war-like behavior in other primates, so it's likely that it predates homo sapiens entirely and is something carried over from our genetic past. A lot of other animals are territorial as well. If other species were capable of developing complex tools, they would probably use them for fighting as well.

    2. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by tomhath · · Score: 3, Interesting

      why would we expect them any less capable or motivated to commit mass murder than someone today?

      My guess is that this was neither war nor mass murder. More like an armed gang plundering a village, same as the Vikings raiding England.

    3. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by T.E.D. · · Score: 2

      Moreoever, as the intro alluded to, chimpanzees have also been observed going to war with neighboring troupes. Since both species do it, and we are closer related to each other than to any other species on earth, its a pretty good bet that our common ancestor was engaging in warfare 5 to 12 million years ago. Finding it a mere 10,000 years ago is an interesting data point, but really neither particularly impressive nor exicting.

    4. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by Feral+Nerd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The title is pretty honest: this is early evidence of war. I agree that we likely cannot observe too many battlegrounds 10,000 years later. The annoying thing about these reporting on this article is that it makes it sound like humans invented war 10,000 years ago! A human 10,000 years ago is virtually identical to us today, so why would we expect them any less capable or motivated to commit mass murder than someone today?

      War seems to be a consequence of population density. The bigger populations get and the scarcer the resources are, the more you are likely to get war. That makes sense since long as there is plenty of land to hunt in and humans are thin on the ground like they were in Europe up to ~25.000 years ago why would I go to war with the first group of people I have run into in six months when I can settle in the uninhabited valley across the ridge be friends with the neighbours and swap single men/women with them (i.e. arrange marriages)? This is one reason why the theory that Modern Humans and Neanderthals lived in Europe side by side for 15.000 to (possibly up to) 25.000 years, never interacted in a significant way and that two teenagers from either group never did what horny teenagers do with the resulting pregnancies, pair-bonding and hybrid offspring. There is hardly a shred of evidence for warfare in Europe, for example, until the Neolithic and the Copper/Bronze-age when warfare (well mostly raiding) really starts to become fairly common. This is not to say that war is unknown in low density populations. there is always some witchdoctor with a claim that is conjuring up evil spirits and sending them over to make your tribe's kids sick (or something) resulting in a massacre but that seems to be quite rare as long as population density is small. There are some examples of Neanderthal, Heidelbergensis and proto-modern human skeletons with cut marks on them that are quite old but that could just as easily be evidence of ritual cannibalism or ritual de-fleshing of the dead as it is evidence of warfare/predatory-cannibalism.

      P.S. This is not that much older than the previous oldest example (that I can remember off hand) which is Kennewick Man who died in 8.9k to 9k BP and had a spear point embedded in his hip (a would he survived by many years): https://img.washingtonpost.com... Just a reminder that these people were tougher than nails.

    5. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by mikael · · Score: 2

      If cows sense a threat to their calves they will approach the threat, knock it over and jump on it until that threat has gone.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/n...

      The next time you see them grazing peacefully in a sunny green field, just remember they are probably plotting to take over the world.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    6. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      All wars are resource wars.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    7. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "The title is pretty honest: this is early evidence of war."

      Maybe it is because English not being my first language but I don't see this as war. War is a long winding use of violence between two parties. A premeditated violent incident between two groups when only one party knows what's going to happen is an ambush; if both of them know it, it's a battle. You usually see ambushes and battles in war times, but neither ambushes nor battles are wars on their own.

    8. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Indeed, by 10,000 years ago, humans were probably already writing about their wars.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (...)when I can settle in the uninhabited valley across the ridge be friends with the neighbours and swap single men/women with them (i.e. arrange marriages)?

      While I totally agree with you on the sense that neighboring groups would exchange men and women, given that chimpanzees and bonobos do not form stable pairs, it's also at least worth considering whether humans before the advent of agriculture were forming them. A recent book "Sex at Dawn" covers this subject and given your knowledge and understanding about population densities and its meaning for fighting over food, I think it's worth a look.

    10. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      "The title is pretty honest: this is early evidence of war."

      Maybe it is because English not being my first language but I don't see this as war. War is a long winding use of violence between two parties. A premeditated violent incident between two groups when only one party knows what's going to happen is an ambush; if both of them know it, it's a battle. You usually see ambushes and battles in war times, but neither ambushes nor battles are wars on their own.

      English is my first language and I thought the exact same thing.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    11. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why would we expect them any less capable or motivated to commit mass murder than someone today?

      My guess is that this was neither war nor mass murder. More like an armed gang plundering a village, same as the Vikings raiding England.

      A distinction without a difference to those involved.

    12. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      I think your supposition that it has to do with population density is only indirectly true.
      Does it have *something* to do with density? Sure...in a very basic sense: if it takes 3 weeks to search out and find someone to fight, yeah, not many hunter/gatherer tribes are going to have the 'leisure' to do so. And it's certainly likely that the frequency of such incidents would be directly related to the density of such groups.
      But (as it seems you were implying) is it that organized conflict is a consequence of density in the sense of competition for scarce resources? Not at all; relatively organized murderous raids have been observed in primate groups that have no apparent resource issues and are simply young males looking for mates or just on a violent bender.

      The propensity for non-defensive violence is seemingly inherent in primates; the growth of that concept to raids and war to me is a consequence of intelligence. Once you start to conceptualize cause and effect, it's more likely you'll survive such an act if you get 10 of your fellows to join you.

      --
      -Styopa
    13. Re:War was not invented 10k years ago by Reziac · · Score: 1

      It's also possible that those killed were a migrant group and were viewed as unwanted competition or invaders.

      That obsidian isn't normally found in the area is not conclusive that the killers were "foreigners" -- could be they traded for it, or fetched it themselves.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  7. Dubious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This can't be true. Humans were noble savages before we invented capitalism.

  8. Surprise! We're a young, violent race by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    ..and we haven't changed much at all in ten thousand years, either, now have we? The weapons and methods may have changed, but when it comes right down to it, the attitudes aren't all that different. We delude ourselves that this thin patina of 'civilization' means we've made it, we're not just 'intellgent' but sentient, and if E.T. came calling, we'd be ready to enter Galactic Civilization as full participating members -- but none of that is true.

    But look at the leaps and bounds we've made! What you're saying can't be true, look at the wonderful things X Y and Z have done and contributed to Humanity!

    An individual can act more evolved than the average, and entire populations of people can be just wonderful -- so long as everything is going well for them, there's no problems, and everyone has everything they want or need. But you put populations under stress? The animals that we are inside our skins comes out and you find out what we're really like.

    Nice try, Humanity. Come back in another 10000 years and we'll see if you've made any real progress.

    1. Re:Surprise! We're a young, violent race by almitydave · · Score: 4, Insightful

      An individual can act more evolved than the average, and entire populations of people can be just wonderful -- so long as everything is going well for them, there's no problems, and everyone has everything they want or need. But you put populations under stress? The animals that we are inside our skins comes out and you find out what we're really like.

      Or to put it another way: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."

      --
      my, your, his/her/its, our, your, their
      I'm, you're, he's/she's/it's, we're, you're, they're
    2. Re:Surprise! We're a young, violent race by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      If you want to determine the IQ of a group, take the biggest idiot and divide his IQ by the number of feet.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Surprise! We're a young, violent race by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't want to quote Men In Black, I wanted to use my own words. :-)

    4. Re:Surprise! We're a young, violent race by Rinikusu · · Score: 2

      And then you have people that are just assholes. I was more than content to be left to my own devices in school, for example, but there were some fucking jocks who just couldn't let me have my peace. Macho bullshit has been around for a very long time. I don't see any reason to believe that ancient humans also had their fair share of jocked out fuckwads.

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    5. Re:Surprise! We're a young, violent race by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if they've all had their legs amputated? Then you'll never get a calculation of your group.

    6. Re:Surprise! We're a young, violent race by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I admit, then the whole statistic wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:Surprise! We're a young, violent race by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Most assholes are the result of parenting failures -- not that that is an adequate excuse.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  9. Reasons for early wars among humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Early humans certainly faced limited access to food, water, tools, and materials for shelter. When populations increased, the amount of resources available to each person or tribe was less. It would be possible to travel farther for the resources or access resources that are more difficult to reach at a given location. However, when resources are scarce enough relative to the population, it becomes easier to simply take someone else's resources, when they do the work to gather or build them. Killing other people or tribes to obtain the resources also reduces the population and the competition for those resources while requiring less work or skill. It also serves a purpose in natural selection in which those are fittest also survive to procreate. Strength and fitness were certainly necessary to be effective at hunting or building tools and shelter. But they also were essential in war. Those who were fastest and best at hunting animals would also be best at hunting other humans. Killing the weaker tribes for their resources probably improved the survival of early humans as a species, where the more violent tribes would have survived.

    As the article points out, there's abundant evidence of wars in Africa, in particular, with weapons and the people whom those weapons were used to kill. Undoubtedly, this influenced the genetic makeup of people in that area, and the genes that provided an advantage for early humans likely persist in Africans and their descendants to this day. There's plenty of evidence that genes that make canines docile provided a survival advantage because they would approach humans for food. These genetic traits and tendencies have persisted to this day in the modern dog. It's likely that the early humans who warred in this manner have passed along the same genes that favored violence for survival and those also persist in some modern humans. It's a fascinating study.

  10. if clubs are outlawed, only outlaws will have club by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the only thing that can stop a bad caveman with a sharp stick is a good caveman with a sharp stick.

    Thank you, try the veal!

  11. War. War never changes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obligatory.

  12. Re:if clubs are outlawed, only outlaws will have c by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can have my sharp stick when paleontologists pry it from my cold dead finger-bones.

  13. If only.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There had been blunt instrument control. Then this senseless massacre never would have happened! I blame the National Club Association and all the blunt instrument manufacturers and their lobbyists for allowing tragedies like this to continue unabated!

    1. Re:If only.... by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Quite the opposite! They would have needed a National Club Association, where members can hold meetings and teach each other about club wielding, club maintenance and of course club safety.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  14. It started when EVE ate the forbidden fruit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    nt

    1. Re:It started when EVE ate the forbidden fruit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking of EVE, this massacre would have taken appx 10,000 years to unfold in EVE Online.

    2. Re:It started when EVE ate the forbidden fruit by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And cost a few billion of fake currency, people would still talk about it thousands of years later and bore people who don't give a fuck to death with it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  15. In Africa, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I might have known!

    1. Re:In Africa, eh? by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1

      of course, since that where most of the earliest human and proto human remains have been found.

    2. Re:In Africa, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IN SOVIET RUSSIA, war makes YOU!

      What a country!

  16. got what they deserved by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

    They got what they deserved. Clearly God was on the side of the winners, and if history is any indication he likely ordered his people to kill the others.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:got what they deserved by Opportunist · · Score: 0

      God was an ass. He's omnipotent, isn't he? Then why the fuck did he put the bloody tree right there?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:got what they deserved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      According to the dominant themes of the gnostic heresies, God didn't put the tree there...He was just not powerful enough to remove it. He didn't actually create life, just matter, and uses it as a prison to keep us trapped and suffering in his insanity. But since he isn't all-powerful (that's just a lie he uses to convince us to worship him), he couldn't prevent an embodiment of wisdom from giving us a way out: knowledge.

      The serpent was a messenger of wisdom, the woman was the first to attain gnosis (knowledge of her true nature as a spiritual being that is not a slave to matter), and she acted as the guide to help man along.

      The degree to which any of this was interpreted as metaphor varied from gnostic sect to gnostic sect. The Quakers were pretty literal about it, to the point of refusing to breed because doing so was an indulgence in the corruption of matter. That's why they aren't around any more.

      As crazy as that is....it makes more sense than the fundamentalist explanation, which amounts to (after the long-winded conversation) the claim that God is so mysterious that his justice, which is perfect, seems like injustice to us mere mortals, so we should worship and adore him even though everything he does seems like sadism and sociopathy to us. (Same is true of God's love and mercy, perfect and hence not in contradiction with his plan to keep the vast majority of us in agonizing torture for ever with no way out, even though it seems blatantly contradictory).

    3. Re:got what they deserved by JillElf · · Score: 3, Informative

      The degree to which any of this was interpreted as metaphor varied from gnostic sect to gnostic sect. The Quakers were pretty literal about it, to the point of refusing to breed because doing so was an indulgence in the corruption of matter. That's why they aren't around any more.

      >

      The Shakers, not Quakers, practiced abstinence. Not a good long-term plan if you want to keep your sect going.

    4. Re:got what they deserved by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Cool story, bro.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  17. Aw Jeez, not this shiat again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a species, we somehow got the idea to be shocked that we act like animals instead of being shocked that occasionally we don't.

    1. Re:Aw Jeez, not this shiat again... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      We like the idea that somehow we're not animals anymore or that we're civilized.

      Civilization, though, is just a thin coat of white paint on the blood red priming. And it dissolves very easily in alcohol.

      (with apologies to Mr. Aldous Huxley for mangling the quote)

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Aw Jeez, not this shiat again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Posting anonymously to not undo moderations)

      Civilization, though, is just a thin coat of white paint on the blood red priming. And it dissolves very easily in alcohol.

      Could you please point me to the original quote? I've tried to search parts of your line hoping it would match a part of the original, and pages of quotes from Mr. Aldous Huxley and his works and I couldn't find something resembling it... I am interested where it's originating from 'though :)

    3. Re:Aw Jeez, not this shiat again... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What I have here is a German translation ("Kultur ist ein sehr dünner Firnis, der sich leicht in Alkohol auflöst") that is allegedly by Huxley. I cannot point you to a suitable original either, since the original obviously either was worded very differently or, which is about as likely considering we're talking about the internet as a source here, not even by Huxley, despite the numerous pages claiming it as a valid quote.

      Re-translated back to English it should read as something like "Culture is a very thin coat of paint that is easily dissolved by alcohol".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  18. I refuse to believe this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Ancient people were peaceful. They did not kill innocent, feeling animals for food. They grew only wholesome, natural, organic, pesticide-free vegetables to survive. They sang and danced in front of camp fires. They were one with nature.

    They smoked pot.

    Time to legalize now!

  19. obsidian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The idea that obsidian weapons is evidence for some outside group involved in the fight is somewhat ridiculous. It is well-acknowledged that humans of the described era (and far earlier eras) were involved in the long-distance trade of superior tool-making stones like obsidian.

  20. The film "2001: A Space Odyssey" ... by Streetlight · · Score: 1

    This film may have gotten it right. Haven't read the short story ("The Sentinel") or book, but assume those opening scenes in the film were represented in the short story by Clarke. Apparently the book of the same title was written concurrently with the film's production and released after the film's release. For the film, the screenplay was co-written by Kubrick and Clarke.

    --
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
    1. Re:The film "2001: A Space Odyssey" ... by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      This film may have gotten it right. Haven't read the short story ("The Sentinel") or book, but assume those opening scenes in the film were represented in the short story by Clarke. Apparently the book of the same title was written concurrently with the film's production and released after the film's release. For the film, the screenplay was co-written by Kubrick and Clarke.

      It's been a long time however IIRC it is in the short story version.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  21. Huge Pickings by edittard · · Score: 2

    and other devastating wound.

    Way to go, shitdot.

    --
    At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
  22. What I want to know is by Rinikusu · · Score: 4, Funny

    Did they see their enemies driven before them? Did they hear the lamentations of their women?

    --
    If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    1. Re:What I want to know is by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Did they see their enemies driven before them? Did they hear the lamentations of their women?

      I visited a tribe of islanders about a decade ago who told me the story behind many of the ornate carved tools and axes, that people so adored, were actually tools for cannibalism (another ism!). Ornate four pronged forks looked far more gruesome when you discovered they were made for eating human eyeballs and that odd looking hook on the back of the axe was made to hook out a portion of spine so that the quarry or victim could be kept alive and wouldn't spoil as they were eaten. Full on yikes, when you discover you are hanging out with a tribe of former cannibals!

      The practise had only ended 150 years earlier when christian missionaries came and showed the tribes another way.

      They told me that they had basically hunted the other tribe, who were literally seen as food, to extinction and that they allowed the last remaining woman to live with them . I bet it was fun for her watching everyone she knew being eaten then being promoted from being food to sharing her lamentations for the rest of her natural life.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    2. Re:What I want to know is by bazorg · · Score: 2

      That's why I never go to South London...

    3. Re:What I want to know is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The practise had only ended 150 years earlier when christian missionaries came and showed the tribes another way.

      No no no!!! You are messing up the narrative of slashdot!! Please repeat after me: Religion is bad, and christianity is the most evil of all!!

    4. Re:What I want to know is by samoanbiscuit · · Score: 1

      You've been to Fiji and seen the "i cula ni bokola" forks I take it. Well modern natives being hardline Christian, they're taught an exaggerated take on the brutality of their cannibal past in order to underscore how good they live now with their Christian faith. Cannibalism in Polynesia was ritualistic, done mainly after war or in the process of a ritual of high importance. You don't build an agrarian trader society (which the Polynesians were) if everyone's eating everybody they don't know.

    5. Re:What I want to know is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      y'know. that really is what's best in life!

    6. Re:What I want to know is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's Islington, Islanders were probably Manx

  23. Violence among today's hunter-gatherers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are still tribes of hunter-gatherers today, and ethnographers who study their lives report them to be orders of magnitude more likely to die from violence than the inhabitants of Chicago. Steven Pinker documented the exact numbers in Better Angels of Our Nature, a book worth reading for anyone interested in the history of violence.

    1. Re:Violence among today's hunter-gatherers by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      It's interesting that he's received death threats over that book.

  24. Obsidian Commerce by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This suggests that the attackers may have been from another area

    Or that the obsidian from the Arabian Peninsula was widely traded in the East Africa. Although the Red Sea is a narrow sea, we can assume these people were not from beyond the Wall, hunting white walkers and such.

  25. NSAmabinladen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At every region,as the population density hit a critical level, humans preyed upon each other for resources they competed for. This led to violence which caused the population density to plateau, so the population remained steady instead of rising as it had earlier. This constant low-grade warfare led to the evolution of fear as a successful adaptation to space. Much later, conquerors imposed civilization on the regions, so local warfare was prevented by civil authorities. The fear of space was then exploited by priests who steered it into a fear of time. Now we are sold insurance against fear of space by the government and insurance against fear of time by religion. Without this, fear would disappear from our species.

    1. Re:NSAmabinladen by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Much fear is caused by associating things with pain. Some people fear dogs after being bitten. That's not the sort of thing that's going to disappear if governments and religion end.

      The claim that "fear of time" is anything but a rare aberration is just silly.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  26. War by MrKaos · · Score: 1
    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  27. War... War never changes. by Koreantoast · · Score: 1

    Commentor: War... War never changes.
    NPR: Be careful out there in the Wasteland.

  28. Let's get the politics right first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if you have the wrong politics you can be labeled as a Hitler and your academic career is over.

    First off; what race were the parties involved. If they were crackers killin other cracker or better yet crackers killin African americans. That is the best of all worlds. Write it up and get the nobel prize. That means crackers were the first to start war. Now on the other hand if they parties involved were not fair skinned, you are treading on very dangerous ground. To say non crackers would every perpetuate violence without cracker instigation will get you barred from just about everything except clan meetings. No, if there were non crackers involved, the best thing to do would be to ignore the story. The next best thing would be somehow to explain that the only possible reason that these ancient people might have been violent is if somehow crackers were using their cracker powers to gobble up all the good land, thus forcing the peaceful natives to kill each other.

    Again I haven't actually read any of this, but I would say that before any scientific facts are established, we need to establish the correct political facts and possible courses of action. I really hope and pray that the guilty parties involved were in fact white. Perhaps and ancient swastika can be placed / found on the graves.

    1. Re:Let's get the politics right first by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Too bad you didn't read the article. The find is in Kenya.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  29. war? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

    early ghetto thugs kill a family for their possessions and food

  30. The causes of war are three by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    "This shows that two of the conditions associated with warfare among settled societies—control of territory and resources"

    Certainly plenty of wars have been fought over that, but wars have been fought over religion, or ideology, too. Wars have been fought over slavery.

    The Greek historian Thucydides pointed out that the causes of war are three: greed, fear, and ideology.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  31. Re:How about an article describing how to insert . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Palaeontology is completely nerdy. Fuck off.

  32. I prefer DS9... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people – as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon."

    1. Re:I prefer DS9... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're worse. At least some of the Klingons actually have the honor they're constantly going on about. Humans? Please.

    2. Re:I prefer DS9... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's 'hoo-mans', get it right!

  33. Ancient violence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We need to start a campaign for the payment of reparations to the present-day descendants of the victims of this atrocity

  34. Imperialism? by mi · · Score: 1

    Four of them, including a late-term pregnant woman, appear to have had their hands bound.

    That's pretty brutal — can it be blamed on American imperialism somehow?

    The Greek historian Thucydides pointed out that the causes of war are three: greed, fear, and ideology.

    What about Faux News?

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  35. Many millions of years... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Far before we were even fully human. Even if you make the argument that it has only come about since we became human... even that happened MUCH MUCH MUCH further back than 10,000 years. Why, we had already killed all the mammoths off by then!

    Besides, neanderthal interbreeding had (probably) already stopped by then, you can't tell me that all the probable raping and pillaging associated didn't cause a few fist fights at least?

  36. I see why peopel find that funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Conan the barbarian quote. Funny. Until you realize that they DID hear the lamentation of the women and child that they killed, including a late pregnant woman. Then at least for me I fail to find that THAT funny.

  37. Arrows aren't used for hunting?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    [quote]The killers carried weapons they wouldn't have used for hunting and fishing, including clubs of various sizes and a combination of close-proximity weapons like knives and distance weapons, including the arrow projectiles she calls a hallmark of inter-group conflict. [/quote]

    What utter nonsense. Does she really think arrows are not useful for hunting? Clubs and knives are useful for hunting too, especially the type that humans engaged in during our pre-history: run an animal to exhaustion and then beat and stab it to death. The entirety of human weapons history is a tale of adapting hunting weapons to war, and war weapons to hunting. There's rarely a useful distinction when the only difference is whether the target has two legs or four.

  38. Let's dissect this nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First of all, are you personally killing people? Then why are you using the term "we", as if you are? I suggest you kill that bad habit, and start being more precise in your arguments. Human beings are unique, thinking individuals, not borgs. Every human being is individually responsible for their own actions -- no more, no less. Human nature tells us that.

    Second, the vast majority of murders in this world are NOT conducted "for fun" or "for sport". They are driven purely by self-interest. Personal gain. Selfishness. Don't muddy the waters by trying to take our eyes off the target. This is an application of common sense, not speculative philosophy.

  39. Eureka by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is war, if not a primitive behavior leftover from the earlier stages of evolution? Coercion in general (theft, fraud, physical force) is merely an animal trait that hasn't evolved away yet.

  40. Whence Warfare? by tedcloak · · Score: 1

    What really riles groups of people up, all the way to murderous rage, is the belief, right or wrong, that they are under threat -- of attack, of poaching, of losing land or cattle or water, etc. If that's correct, then warfare among hunters and gatherers would be relatively rare, while warfare among horticulturalists would be relatively common. The correlation between being predators and being warriors is essentially zero.