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Insurance Companies Looking For Fallback Plans To Survive Driverless Cars (csmonitor.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Driverless cars could mean a huge downsizing of the auto insurance industry, as the frequency of accidents declines and liability shifts from the driver to the vehicle's software or automaker. This is compounded by the rise of ride-sharing services. Once summoning a vehicle to take you somewhere isn't limited by the number of people available to drive them (and are correspondingly cheaper), car ownership is likely to decline. Many major automakers and tech companies are throwing billions of research dollars into making this happen, and insurance companies are trying to figure out how to survive. For example, a recent patent application shows State Farm is betting on collecting massive amounts of data about you. While they'll no doubt use it to set your insurance rates, they also plan to "send you advice, alerts, coupons or discounts on insurance or other goods and services." Traveler's Insurance is thinking along somewhat similar lines. They want to create "a device that offers specific suggestions for managing errands and other travel. Customers would be able to see a map of 'risk zone' data for places they want to go, such as stores, restaurants and roads. They could then plan the day 'with an eye toward how risky such endeavors may be,' according to the patent application."

293 comments

  1. Seems non-sequitur. by halivar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They plan on monetizing this data with or without driverless cars.

    1. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      This almost sounds like Flo is plugging that Progressive tracking chip straight in your head...and charging you based on your risk behaviors and travels for each day.

      Fsck that.....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    2. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      State Farm is already sending me "targeted" promotional information - so far I can't detect any value add for them coming from this Spam.

    3. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by castionsosa · · Score: 1

      Wonder how they can send me this info. On my Web browser, I use the usual adblocking tools due to security (malvertising is a primary infection vector.) E-mail tends to be routed via rules in Thunderbird to an internal IMAP server [1] My cell phone number will drop the robocallers (thanks to Mr. Number.) Physical junk mail winds up being shredded, mixed with water, pressed with a custom made press into logs, and left to dry for a while (months) so I have high-BTU "firewood".

      The only real access is via my iOS devices where I see the AdChoices banner quite often, and there is no real blocking there barring a jailbreak.

      [1]: I took recommendations from here, bought a Synology NAS that had RAID, installed the mail packages (basically dovecot and roundcube), and have Thunderbird toss all non-critical mail and all archived mail to that device.

    4. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by Forgefather · · Score: 1

      1blocker can take care of most of the adds on you iOS device if you are interested.

      --
      "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics"
    5. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by vtcodger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seems to me like there are an awful lot of folks planning to make a living if not a fortune off advertising and data mining. It's working OK so far, but I have a feeling that there's more than one thing that can go wrong with those plans. ... and on a rather grand scale.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    6. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You've got it. There's only so many dollars available for advertising. Insurance companies will be seeing huge drops in auto insurance, so they will not have as much money to spend advertising on TV, radio, junk mail, etc. The more businesses offering targeting data into a smaller advertiser base, the less the revenue per business. Simple supply and demand rules.

      And the auto manufacturers are big enough to self-insure ...

      Then there's the aging population ... why should someone who's retired and only drives to the store once a week bother with the hassles and expenses of owning a car - especially if their vision, coordination, or side effects of medication make it too risky?

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    7. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by TWX · · Score: 1

      Wonder how they can send me this info.

      If you're wondering how they know what to send in the first place, they can infer a lot about you based on your insurance and your demographic information.

      Hell, the entire practice of insurance is statistics based on analyzing demographic information. Insurance companies are in the business of predicting the odds of occurrences that might result in a claim, and building sets that best quantify risk groups for those odds. They can look at your age, your gender, the history of the area in which you live, your marital status, the number of children that you have, and the type of dwelling that you inhabit, and the kind of car(s) you own to start to build a risk profile. Then they can look at your claims history, your accident history, the claims and accidents history of your immediate family, and the kinds of insurance you're looking for in order to develop a further refinement on what they think may befall you. Analyzing that risk dictates how much they want to charge you and others like you such that they continue to profit despite the claims they'll have to pay out.

      It also lets them make guesses about what you will want to do in the future, and to advertise services that you might find valuable. You might be approaching 40, have a house mostly paid-off, have a retirement account that's starting to look healthy, and want to protect above your normal thresholds, so they remind you that they offer umbrella policies to cover you for liability above and beyond the normal thresholds. They might offer you riders for expensive home furnishings or firearms or tools if they predict that you're going to have a lot of that sort of thing. They might remind you of optional coverage for things like floods that you didn't get when you were younger but you might want now for peace-of-mind.

      There's all kinds of statistics, and they're capitalizing on that.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    8. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by Grishnakh · · Score: 3, Informative

      -1 Ignorant about insurance companies

      He's not talking about progressive politics, he's talking about the Progressive insurance company which is somewhat famous for their loud-mouthed "Flo" character on their TV commercials. That's why he mentioned "Flo" and capitalized "Progressive". The company has some kind of program they're pushing where they have a tracking device in their customers' cars which track their driving actions and then adjust their bills accordingly.

    9. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      For a while, at least, a lot of people are going to want personal cars still, even if they're self-driving: people in more rural areas aren't going to want to wait around for a GM/Lyft car to come pick them up, for instance. They're going to need insurance, though it's going to be less since the car will be self-driving, but they'll still need to insure the vehicle against accidents caused by human drivers, or acts of God, bad weather, etc.

      Also, it's a bit hard to believe that other companies wouldn't want to get in on the "ride sharing" or Johnny-cab business, and wouldn't buy autonomous vehicles from the automakers to use in their fleets. Smaller, city-wide companies like that (probably descendants of existing cab/livery companies) would still need insurance because they're not big enough to self-insure. Of course, I could be completely wrong about this and these companies could all be forced out of business by the automakers jumping directly to making their own Johnny-cabs and operating them directly. However, it seems like a stretch to me, because today automakers specialize in just building cars, they're not even generally in the business of selling them (they leave that to independent con-artists^Hdealerships in most places), much less operating their own cab companies or anything like that. So I have a hard time seeing the automakers trying to do multiple things at once like that. If this actually made sense, then wouldn't we see GM in the car-rental business at airports, rather than contracting with Hertz/Avis/Dollar/Budget to sell them fleets of crappy cars no one wants so they can be rented to travelers?

    10. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by peragrin · · Score: 1

      It gets better. Amazon has 20 years of sales history for me. 20 years of buying music, movies, clothes and misc stuff

      Not once have I ever received a targeted promotional material for something I didn't already have. Even my recommendations are wrong 95% of the time.

      The key to ad companies being routinely wrong? Enjoy variety. Don't stick to just one genre. Of anything.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    11. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by Fragnet · · Score: 1

      Oh you say he's talking about Progressive the insurance company but a day will come when you're attached, Borg-like, to a Political Correctness chip. It'll save a lot of money on college campuses. Safe spaces aren't cheap.

    12. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      No, the GP knew what he was saying: ultranova was criticizing the fact that, while cayenne8 is generally conservative and in favor of the government treating people unequally based on their particular circumstances, he's suddenly upset at the prospect of insurance companies (roughly equivalent to government since car insurance is required by law) doing the same to him. It's hypocritical.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    13. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Setting aside the political misinterpretation, I think this is a good time to remind everyone that a for-profit isn't going to use improved granularity to play zero-sum.

      You can see it in action with the ISPs. They're looking for ways to cash on all the normals that gobble bandwidth on streaming (a reasonable enough reaction) but only a fool believes they'll cut the bill on the granny who checks email once a week - she's already proven she'll pay $80/mo to do it.

    14. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by halivar · · Score: 1

      Except ultranova italicized the word Progressive, indicating that he did indeed misconstrue its original usage.

    15. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Progressive the insurance company is run by political progressives, which is how the company got its name.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    16. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, we're already living in an economy in the US that's 17% based on finance and banking, areas that do not actually produce anything.

      Advertising is next, something that is about manipulating people into giving up their money.

      Race to the bottom on three...one....two....three!

    17. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Or indicating that he was making the double meaning of "Progressive" into an intentional pun.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    18. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Yep, I hear you. Whenever I buy something out of the ordinary, Amazon seems to believe that you now want a whole bunch more of that. No, you idiots, I just bought what I needed, so now I'm good! It's really astounding how bad they often are at that. You'd think they'd have an easier time spotting the occasional outlier and figuring that it's probably a one off, and they should probably stick to recommending what I normally buy.

      And people are worried about the singularity...

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    19. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Datamining is basically stealing the change from my couch to get rich. From my point of view, I consider myself justified in stopping this theft. I just can't justify spending lots of money or effort to protect small change.

    20. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Really, now? Because last I checked, it was the Conservatives who go into conniptions over the thought of subsidizing someone else's suboptimal behaviour. It's your side which insists on everyone carrying their own risk and nothing more, and thus needs to track it on an individual basis. The Progressive approach is to tax everyone, give help to whoever needs it, and simply accept that this means some people end up costing more than they pay.

      Who said this was some type of liberal vs conservative argument?

      Progressive is an insurance company, with "Flo" as their spokeswoman character, hawking this ODB-II (sp?) plug in for your car if you trade your car info for lower rates on insurance....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    21. Re: Seems non-sequitur. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fine, I'll fuck Flo. But only if she leaves after.

    22. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      There's only so many dollars available for advertising.

      That is not necessarily true. If advertising is made more effective, because it is targeted or whatever, then it brings in more sales, and a profit optimizing company will do more of it. There is no reason an advertising budget should be zero-sum.

    23. Re: Seems non-sequitur. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this week my Mrs went on the etiad website looking for flights on her email.
      5 minutes later I get an email to my inbox advertising me etiad flights.

      don't think I'm ever going to fly etiad. ....

      and that means Google is linking my email address with our ip address and flogging it to advertisers.

    24. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      goddammit, you're stupid

    25. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by kheldan · · Score: 1

      My 'behaviors' are none of their gods-be-damned business. If my driving record (which is excellent, by the way) isn't good enough for them, then they can shove it.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    26. Re: Seems non-sequitur. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your behaviors are literally their business. Ethically right or wrong, that's the truth of it.

    27. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except in the largest cities the vast majority people don't use cabs, they own their own cars. I don't really understand why the autonomous car proponents all think that car ownership will disappear. People will just own their autonomous car like they own their regular car now.

    28. Re: Seems non-sequitur. by kheldan · · Score: 1

      'Ethically' doesn't even enter into it for me. If they insisted I'd take my business elsewhere, where my privacy is respected, and don't even bother busting out with 'everybody will want to track you' because that's just spreading FUD.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    29. Re: Seems non-sequitur. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once one insurance company starts doing this, it's just a matter of time until they all do. The free market won't protect you. The free market does not provide what consumers want, it provides what's profitable, and those things are only sometimes the same.

    30. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Advertising requires consumption. Once consumers don't have the extra bucks to spend, more advertising won't convince them to loosen their purse-strings.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    31. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Well the idea is that a lot of people wouldn't want to bother any more. People prefer to have their own cars now because they don't want to wait for a ride, and because cabs are slow as shit and horrifically expensive in the non-NYC (less dense) cities you speak of. If we have big-corporation-owned-and-operated autonomous "ride sharing" cars where you can just call up a ride on your smartphone, have it arrive in a couple of minutes, and take you (possibly with some ride-alongs to save money) to your workplace, and this comes out cheaper than the current system of a car payment plus insurance plus repairs/maintenance, then I can see a lot of people switching to that.

      Also, a lot of people are more occasional car users: retired people don't need to drive every day, for instance, some people work at home and only need a car for grocery runs and pleasure trips, etc. Those people will probably dump their cars first.

      You're right that all car ownership is unlikely to disappear quickly. For someone who uses a car a lot, it's likely it'll stay cheaper to own your own car instead of relying on GM/Lyftcab. Plus, people do like to own things, and generally dislike sharing rides with strangers, and a personally-owned car is likely to have a nicer interior too than one used by the masses. Plus rental schemes usually seem to end up being more expensive than they really need to for some reason.

    32. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by un1nsp1red · · Score: 1

      Wonder how they can send me this info.

      They used to get me the old-fashioned way -- just fucking calling all the time (not robocalls - just receptionist/assistant). Of course I never answered, but it still bothered me enough that I dropped StateFarm and went to Metromile.

    33. Re: Seems non-sequitur. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pay 29EUR for 250/100Mbit. Suck it, Ameritrash! 8)

    34. Re: Seems non-sequitur. by kheldan · · Score: 1

      Nobody is going to go for this. It's a gross violation of people's privacy.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    35. Re: Seems non-sequitur. by toddestan · · Score: 1

      These devices aren't new, they've been around now for a few years. My insurance company offered me one, and I turned it down. My guess is they'll get enough people to opt in to make it worth their while, and if they really wanted to get people to use them, they'd just raise the rates without using the device to punitive levels.

    36. Re:Seems non-sequitur. by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I figure the companies that advertise the most are the ones that have lots of cash to throw around. So it's really no surprise that there's so many ads for insurance companies, cell phones, and prescription medicine on TV because those companies are raking in the money. Remember back in the 90's it was all ads for long distance telephone service? Funny how you don't see those anymore...

  2. Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If you think that "the vehicle's software or automaker" will be solely responsible for any damage or action, you're naive. This is 'Murica, land of the suit. Personal liability insurance will be a must with these kinds of things. This, of course, assumes the deep-pockets don't manage to shift ALL of the liability to the passenger who "should have pushed the emergency override button and avoided the problem".

    1. Re:Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Exactly. Many states simply let you sue everyone remotely involved. I got hit by a drunk driver in a no-fault state. That dude sued the owner of the vehicle, the owner's insurance, their own insurance, me, and my insurance. After just 4 short years of litigating, they got a $1500 settlement out of my insurance company because I "didn't do enough to get out of their way" when they lost control of their vehicle and spun into me.

      There's a "pain clinic" on every corner for a reason, just like there are back to back personal injury attorney commercials on tv every 5 minutes.

    2. Re:Liability... by Altus · · Score: 1

      not if car ownerships falls off a cliff as well.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    3. Re:Liability... by ranton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The article is identifying an obvious problem (insurance industry upheaval from ride sharing and driver-less cars) but providing grossly incorrect insights and details about the problem. Car insurance will not go away because of ride sharing or driver-less cars. No one rational is claiming this. But each of these new realities brings a unique problem.

      Ride sharing shifts the insurance to the owner of the ride sharing car, instead of each individual rider. The number of miles driven won't go down (significantly), but the number of people being marketed to will. This is probably a good thing for the large insurance companies as they move from B2C to B2B, but individual insurance salesmen will be drastically hurt.

      Self driving cars also still need insurance; just not as much. And a large portion of the insurance burden will fall to manufacturers instead of just on drivers. Insurance companies will not be able to make the same kind of profit overall on large multinational car companies that they can on the public.

      So the insurance companies will still be there, but its not unreasonable to think they could be half the size or smaller. Or at least their automotive division would be.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    4. Re:Liability... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      I don't expect the number of cars to decrease, but perhaps you are correct about car ownerships (in cities). Someone will be owning the cars though, so perhaps that means they are targetting more corporate customers.

    5. Re:Liability... by internerdj · · Score: 1

      Not just liability. My car isn't going to put itself in a full garage because a hailstorm is coming. It isn't going to turn itself on and dodge a tree during a tornado. It isn't going to roll down the windows to protect itself when I'm mowing. I'll probably expect lower rates based on the lower risk to my vehicle, but I'm still going to need coverage.

    6. Re:Liability... by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      let me know how it works out when you can't get a car at peak demand times or when the rent a car model costs more than owning your own car

    7. Re:Liability... by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      Ride sharing shifts the insurance to the owner of the ride sharing car, instead of each individual rider. The number of miles driven won't go down (significantly), but the number of people being marketed to will.

      If ride sharing takes a of in a big way then the total number of miles driven will go down significantly. Two or three people in one car will drive a shorter distance than the total of two or three drivers doing the trip in their separate cars. That's the whole reason that environmentalists encourage ride sharing.

    8. Re:Liability... by Altus · · Score: 1

      I assure you that if it costs me more, or fails to perform, I, along with most people, will continue to own my own car. You really can't possibly imagine a world in which shared transport is not the superior model for most people or even a large percentage of people? You can't imagine the idea that there might be another way of doing things that might work out to be more efficient.

      I'm very sorry about your lack of imagination. It must make life terribly boring.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    9. Re:Liability... by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Most of the time ride sharing is more car sharing than ride sharing. That's unlikely to change with driverless cars.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    10. Re:Liability... by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      Hey, we're just talking automated taxis here. They'll (probably) work fine where taxis work fine now. And they (probably) will not work especially well where taxis don't work well now -- rural areas, intracity business trips, etc.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    11. Re:Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just liability. My car isn't going to put itself in a full garage because a hailstorm is coming.

      It could, conceivably, do just that.

      Perhaps it would be a user-defined setting. Stay outside, except if it's raining, or except if there's hail forecast, or very strong wind.

      It could drive itself to the workshop once its tyres need more air, or to a full-service fuel station. Obviously that costs extra, but some will be willing to pay.

    12. Re:Liability... by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      i played with zip car a few years back. not only is it more expensive than owning a car, but a lot of locations run out of inventory a lot of times. especially in the summer when it's beach weather. like every company they have things like return on assets to think about and cars sitting around not being rented cost them money unless these people buy enough cars for peak demand and somehow drop the price i don't see people dumping their own cars

    13. Re:Liability... by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      i'm in NYC. if i rent a zip car to go to the beach in the summertime it's like $100. sure i can take the train to a NYC beach, but i like beaches outside of NYC a lot better. that's $400 a month for 4 days of the beach per month. more money if i rent it to go buy groceries i can't buy close to home. might as well buy my own car

    14. Re: Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can pry my guns from my cold, dead hands! Wait, what forum am I on? You can pry my steering wheel from my mangled dead hands!

    15. Re:Liability... by Imrik · · Score: 1

      A large portion of what we pay for insurance goes towards the mandatory liability insurance. I would expect that the owner of the car will still have to pay this portion regardless.

    16. Re:Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Self driving cars also still need insurance; just not as much. And a large portion of the insurance burden will fall to manufacturers instead of just on drivers. Insurance companies will not be able to make the same kind of profit overall on large multinational car companies that they can on the public.

      What insurance companies are doing is averaging the costs between their customers.
      A car company already have that averaging done between all their customers, they don't need an insurance company as a middle man.

    17. Re:Liability... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Compare $400/month to how much you'd spend on your own car: the car payment ($200-800/month), insurance (probably at least $200/month), and NYC parking ($$$$).

      I don't see how buying your own car makes any sense there.

      Have you looked into getting an Uber ride to the beach? The other thing you can do is find some friends to go with you and split the Zipcar cost. Then the per-person cost is really quite cheap.

    18. Re: Liability... by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      if my own private car costs me like $400 - $500 a month why would i spend more money on a rental where i can't even be guaranteed i'll be able to drive it anytime i want?

    19. Re:Liability... by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      if history is any indication of the future, people will drive the 5hit out of these cars and wreck them without a second thought knowing that they are insured and it won't cost them a dime out of pocket. just like every other rental car i've driven

    20. Re:Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Downsize? Yeah right, the big ones will just pass the cost off to the few remaining drivers (read as $10,000/month for car insurance). Which will be a real pain as there is NO UBER in rural, backwoods, UPSTATE NY. To get to the store here you need a car. The nearest grocery store can be up to 40 miles away.

    21. Re:Liability... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Um, I think he's talking about situations where you're not at home, and it starts hailing. Your car isn't going to just pull itself into a garage when you're parked at the grocery store. It'll just get hailed on and need body work.

    22. Re:Liability... by eth1 · · Score: 1

      Self driving cars also still need insurance; just not as much. And a large portion of the insurance burden will fall to manufacturers instead of just on drivers. Insurance companies will not be able to make the same kind of profit overall on large multinational car companies that they can on the public.

      I would think most of the large car manufacturers would self-insure. Think about it - this isn't insuring against something massive that only happens very rarely. It will be a constant stream of claims. Thus, if they know there's going to be an average of $X in yearly payouts, it makes more sense for them to pay it themselves, rather than pay an insurance company $X + profit.

    23. Re:Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      insurance (probably at least $200/month)

      Insurance costs nowhere near that much. I pay less than half that.

    24. Re:Liability... by dcooper_db9 · · Score: 1

      According to this slashdot post, which links to this BBC article, that's what at least one manufacturer is planning to do.

      --
      I do not block ads. I do block third party scripts.
    25. Re:Liability... by citylivin · · Score: 2

      Surely being drunk invalidates ones insurance... It does in canada at least.

      --
      As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
    26. Re:Liability... by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Your car spends most of its time parked. Having "just enough" cars for average usage would reduce the number of cars by 75%. Bury the roads (tunnels) in urban areas and you eliminate almost all hazards while freeing up hundreds of trillions of dollars in real estate to pay for the cars and roads (with power rails to eliminate fossil fuels). Going by pure economics we could ban humans driving cars in about twenty years, for most of the Western World.

    27. Re:Liability... by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      Self driving cars also still need insurance; just not as much.

      They'll need plenty of insurance one they start getting hacked just as much as PCs and smartphones.

    28. Re:Liability... by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      I don't see the difference. If he's at the grocery store, then where's he going to park the car to protect against the hail? If there's somewhere safe to park, then an autonomous car could easily do the same thing.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    29. Re: Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Bury the roads ..." Are you familiar with the Big Dig?

    30. Re:Liability... by labnet · · Score: 2

      As it does in Australia, but we know America is not the land of common sense, but of imperial measurements, gas guzzling autos and no basic public health care.

      --
      46137
    31. Re:Liability... by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Hence the lawsuits.

      If the drunk doesn't sue you, who's going to pay his or her hospital bills?

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    32. Re:Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pay $50/month, but without collision coverage. It's an old car, so if it ever needs serious repairs I'm going to get rid of it and buy a new one.

    33. Re:Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ideally, yes. There's always the risk of some kind of widespread defect -- which is true of any component in the car, not just the self-driving parts -- that ends up requiring a recall and possibly a costly settlement after a multi-year investigation proves that a series of related accidents were caused by a logic error. I'm not sure if car companies can buy insurance for that, but let's assume for argument's sake that it was due to a legitimate oversight and not a cover-up or anything.

      But yeah, eventually maybe it'll get to a point where self-driving cars are very safe, but due to the limits of technology they'll occasionally still slip up and cause property damage which they can pay out with some money set aside for that purpose.

    34. Re: Liability... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Universal healthcare pays for their injuries. The at-fault drink driver pays for property damage.

    35. Re:Liability... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      There is no difference! That's the whole point! You still need insurance to deal with stuff like hail, trees falling on your car, etc. That doesn't change whether it's autonomous or not. "internerdj" was responding to someone saying you'd still need personal liability insurance, pointing out that you'd also need insurance to deal with weather (which falls under comprehensive) and other "acts of God".

    36. Re: Liability... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      This just brought a thought into my head about universal healthcare: can doctors, under such a system, be forced to provide care for patients?

      I was just thinking how one possible complaint about universal healthcare is that people who intentionally make themselves sick would still be taken care of, and that others would complain about this costing them (through higher taxes) for those peoples' poor decisions: eating poorly, smoking, etc.

      One thing I've heard of from my mother, who used to be a hospital nurse, was that not so infrequently, doctors she knew would actually refuse to treat certain patients because they were smokers. This happened when the patient was being treated for smoking-related illness (usually emphysema), and was elderly, but then would refuse the doctor's orders to quit smoking immediately and would go sneak cigarettes (usually brought in by their stupid families). When the doctor would find out, they'd give them the choice to either really quit, or go home and die. The patients usually chose the latter.

    37. Re:Liability... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      On what kind of car? Full coverage? What region, and how many miles per year?

      Maybe you don't pay that much because you're 55+ and drive some 15-year-old beater 5000 miles/year. Someone younger with a new car and full coverage and a long commute is going to pay more.

    38. Re: Liability... by pchasco · · Score: 1

      When you go to work can you refuse to do your job?

    39. Re: Liability... by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Of course they can refuse to provide care for patients. Of course like any other industry, your boss might give you a choice of providing care or not having a job. Since many (most?) Doctors are self employed that doesn't matter to them but if you're working for a hospital, a clinic, a cruise ship line, in a camp etc, you have to do what you're employed to do. Generally Doctors do have bargaining power though as there is often a shortage of them.
      At least here in BC, universal health care just means the government gets billed instead of individuals or their insurance and that the government sets the prices, even for those without medical. And if you don't pay your premiums here, you're not covered. Premiums are about $80 a month for a single person making $30,000 or more, subsidized if making less.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    40. Re: Liability... by Stuarticus · · Score: 1
      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    41. Re: Liability... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but you'll have to explain exactly how that applies, especially when I know of real-life examples of doctors refusing to treat patients.

      The HA prevents doctors from doing harm, it doesn't say that doctors have to cater to patients' whims. When a patient *refuses* to follow a doctor's advice to get better, then why should the doctor continue to waste effort treating them?

    42. Re: Liability... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but how does it actually work in universal healthcare systems? That's what I'm asking, not about theory.

      Plus, if you have non-doctors overriding the medical opinions of real doctors, that sounds like a serious flaw in the implementation of a system.

    43. Re: Liability... by dryeo · · Score: 1

      I don"t understand your point. This is a universal healthcare system, Canada, where each Province is in charge of their healthcare following minimum guidelines put out by the feds who also redistribute money from the have Provinces to the have nots.
      Any system has administrators who might have a policy of treating everyone which people on salary have to follow if they want to keep their job. Generally the administrators here are Doctors themselves but in eg a prison, it might be the Warden ordering the Doctor employed by the prison to treat all inmates.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    44. Re: Liability... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      So even if patient flat refuses to follow the doctor's advice, and does things the doctor **orders** them not to, which completely counteract the medical treatment they're being given, the doctors in Canada are obligated to keep trying to treat these uncooperative patients?

      That seems like a major waste of time and money to me. Remember here, the doctors only get paid for treating patients; if they turn a patient away, that's money they're missing out on, but it's no different from refusing to serve a customer in some other business where the aggravation of dealing with a difficult customer isn't worth the money.

    45. Re: Liability... by dryeo · · Score: 1

      In 99+% of cases they can refuse to continue treating a patient who is refusing to follow treatment and usually refuse to treat a patient for most any reason (can't outright refuse to treat someone based on race and such).
      Both here and down there, some Doctors are going to be on salary and have less choice. Just because most Doctors get paid per patient doesn't mean a Doctor in the military for example, gets paid per patient or has has as many choices. I'd guess down there even more Doctors are on salary and have less choice.
      It's like any other trade, if you work for yourself, you have more choice then if you have a boss telling you what to do.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    46. Re: Liability... by fr!th · · Score: 1

      It depends on your definition of 'waste of time and money'

      In total there is less money spent, and similar outcomes. Part of the savings is having less bureaucracy (simpler insurance dealings, no 'debt recovery' hospital employees, that type of thing). Part of the savings comes from rigorous oversight regarding what will and won't be paid for (e.g. not all new, expensive, unproven treatments are paid for by the gov.) - some criticize the people performing this oversight, but the system does generally work well.

      If patients are violent or abusive, they can absolutely be turned away and referred to the police. If they then return in extremis they will be treated. The thing to remember about most healthcare professionals is that they really do want to help people. Most are also very understanding of the complex factors that result in 'socially unacceptable' circumstances and diseases.

      If a persons lifestyle choices affect their risks than that too can be a reason to refuse a type of treatment. If you are still a smoker you don't qualify for home oxygen (too dangerous!), if you are very overweight you may not get a hip or knee replacement (risks also increase).

      There are many issues around 'lifestyle diseases' that require a great deal of thought and compassion to untangle. While it's easy to say "Fatties should have to pay for their diabetes medication!" or "Smokers should have to pay for their emphysema admission!", the reality is that in a free medical system, the philosophy is that by helping all people, regardless of choices, intellect, poor judgement or any factor, the total contribution to society outweighs the 'tough love' of forcing people to change their ways (which we all know almost never happens anyway).

      To put it another way, when I piece together a femur from a motorcycle accident, and the patient asks "When can I ride again?" I don't lecture her on the dangers of her lifestyle, I think to myself "It is so nice to meet someone passionate about their interest, who doesn't give up at the first hurdle and who isn't afraid to get hurt on her path to happiness." I hope this person passes their attitude of accepting risk and taking reward when it's available to her children and the rest of society, so we all don't end up in a culturally desolate nanny state with all risks removed.

      As long as suicide kills ten times as many people as motor car accidents, I will never judge someone for doing something risky that makes them happy - who knows what contribution they may make to my life in the future.

    47. Re:Liability... by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I don't know about burying all the roads, but with cars being able to travel at high speed literally bumper to bumper, most major roads could be cut down to two lanes, as we wouldn't need huge sprawling multi-lane freeways unless the road had to handle a lot of cars. Furthermore, the lanes could be made a lot narrower.

    48. Re:Liability... by toddestan · · Score: 1

      My guess is that driverless cars could have the effect that miles traveled end up going up. If people don't have to actually drive their car, they may tolerate longer commutes to work, especially if the rush hour traffic jams become a thing of the past. Also, people might be inclined also to take their car on longer road trips. If my car could drive me anywhere in the country while I slept, I'd never fly anywhere domestic again.

    49. Re: Liability... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      There's a bit of a difference between a motorcycle rider and an emphysema patient. Lots of motorcyclists ride their whole lives without any accidents; it's a rare occurrence, though obviously they tend to be hurt much worse than people in cars when it does happen. They're not actively inviting injury, unless they're obviously reckless (which most aren't). You could say the exact same thing about anyone who rides in a car, train, airplane, or bus in fact: it's possible they'll be involved in a crash and hurt or killed. Same for bicyclists. Same for pedestrians. Just walking up or down stairs can get you injured. But we do all these things because the risk is worth it; no one wants to sit in a bubble and never leave their house, and society wouldn't function if people didn't go out and do stuff.

      Smoking isn't the same thing: it's entirely unnecessary, has no benefits whatsoever, and only causes injury. If they're willing to quit, then fine, but if they're not, why bother helping them? If someone gets a knife and chops off their fingers, would you bother reattaching them if they tell you that they're going to just chop them off again as soon as you're done? Continuing to smoke after getting treatment for smoking-caused illness is no different.

    50. Re: Liability... by fr!th · · Score: 1

      Haha. Well, in my experience, motorcycles and cigarettes have much the same issues. While I think that cars are very over-used, there is no denying that they are *much* safer than motorcycles. Realistically, in the western world, riding a motorcycle is a lifestyle choice that reflects an acceptance of significant risk in exchange for a desirable experience. In fact, this almost exactly the (superficial) reason for smoking. No one can credibly claim that smoking is not harmful, yet people do it all the time. Why is this so? I don't know the answer, but I am sure the basic reasons are very much the same as riding a motorcycle - "because I want to."
      Asking or expecting someone to quit smoking when they are in hospital for smoking related disease is basically the same as advising a motorcycle rider with a shattered leg to stop riding. "It's a bit late for that advice Doc."

      And I absolutely would re-attach the fingers of someone who intentionally cut them off - and if they tell me they are going to do it again, then I will re-attach them again (if possible, the second time it's doubtful to be successful). That person would also see mental health professionals prior to going home. And I would not consider it a waste of time or effort. For one, how am I supposed to know who is really going to cut off their fingers again, and who is going to 'get their life back on track'. Or even never get their life back on track, but create some kind of artistic or engineering masterpiece? Would you want your doctor to make that decision for you? What if you were bereaved/drunk/depressed?

      Virtually all doctors (and indeed almost all people) take a rather more nuanced view of so-called self-destructive behaviours. I believe that if we were not having this conversation on a forum that you would also have a more 'holistic' view of the factors that cause people to make the choices they do.

      Sometimes it's important to help people just because they need it - it's a safer choice than trying to judge who is worthy.

  3. insurance companies are scum of the earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right down there with (the ambulance chasing scumbag type) lawyers and used car sales douches.

    Some days in fact I would rate even ambulance chasing lawyers higher than insurance companies because you need the lawyers to get anything out of the scumbag insurance companies even when they know they should pay. Putting up a legal fight before paying is just a cost of business for them that usually pays off.

    Now I need to go shower.

    1. Re: insurance companies are scum of the earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you should stop going with the cheapest insurance you can find. Insurance is a product too, and you often get what you pay for.

  4. trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    as a longitme customer of these insurance companies i have this to say...

    DONT find a way to survive you useless fucking leeches. You serve no purpose whatsoever, you are useless middlemen who profit from the suffering of others & add nothing beneficial to society.

    Rather than finding a way to survive, you should curl up in a ball and die.

    Its the best thing for everyone involved.

    1. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck? Insurance is a necessary and beneficial product that does exactly what it's supposed to. It's impossible to live a perfectly safe existince. And if you do, you are not pushing the boundaries of what is possible and so are wasting your life. An occasional accident lets you know that you are actually alive.

    2. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're a lot better than having the government track everywhere you go with your driverless car. I hope we have freedom to drive a human-operated, non-internet connected car in the future.

    3. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      It doesn't help that many governments require insurance. It's no longer a choice, but a mandate.

      Of course, it has to be a mandate because the government doesn't require you to be responsible for anything. If you wreck my car and have no insurance, you might not have to pay me anything. The government should instead require repayment, even if you don't have the means right now, on a schedule. If you can't be compliant, then some of your income should be withheld until the debt is paid. (Even if insurance were still mandatory, this would apply to other areas that are not covered by insurance.)

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    4. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ive been paying for insurance for 20+ years... never once had an accident.

      Total waste of money.

      I guess i should get out & drive wrecklessly just so i can finally get my moneys worth.... otherwise all im doing is buying you jackasses a new mustang every year.

    5. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by ranton · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ive been paying for insurance for 20+ years... never once had an accident.

      Total waste of money.

      I've been paying for life insurance for the past 10+ years ... never once died.

      Total waste of money.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    6. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Insurance isn't a mandate, per se. You can bond yourself for the required coverage and have no 'insurance'. It's just much cheaper to simply have insurance as an aggregate bonded coverage for the typical person. If a person with no insurance totals your car, you are quite capable of suing them and getting a judgement iwth wage garnishments. Most people trade that right to theri insurance company when they accept a settlement offer, and the insurance co doesnt bother to follow up because it's not worth their time for the pennies on the dollar they'll normally actually collect.

      Doesn't mean it doesnt exist.

    7. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... never once died

      Never too soon to start

    8. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      If you do the math life insurance is on average a loss. On average more money has to go in than goes out.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    9. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by torkus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Insurance, by design, is a sham and a scam.

      Even looking at the most basic premises - you (collectively, over time) pay X dollars, the insurance company pays out Y dollars. If Y > X then the insurance company goes bankrupt.

      So by design, premiums MUST exceed payouts. On average it will always be cheaper to pay for things yourself, however people are NOT any good at saving $50K of oh-sh*t money in case they total someone's benz. Much easier for them to pay a $4K premium over 20 years.

      In reality, the only thing insurance protects you from that you couldn't do on your own are the extreme situations. You total someone's ferrari and kill three people. Granted, without insurance you just declare bankruptcy.

      I won't miss our insurance overlords...but I'm sure they'll pass bills requiring similarly priced insurance on driverless cars or something...by 'expanding' coverage or some 'for the people/children/etc.' reason.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    10. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You serve no purpose whatsoever, you are useless middlemen who profit from the suffering of others

      I agree with your basic sentiment, but this wrong. Insurance companies do not profit from the suffering of others. Insurance companies profit from the fear of potential future suffering, and have bureaucracies dedicated to insisting that the current customer discomfort does not sufficiently qualify as suffering to warrant any form of payment (or the forms were filled out wrong, that's a popular play as well).

    11. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 1

      You will have the freedom to do this if you can afford the insurance.

      Insurance is based on risk pools. Over time the risk pool for people that drive themselves will become smaller and smaller and end up as the highest risk category and so insurance will be much more expensive.

      The government won't have to stop you from driving a car yourself. Insurance will end up pricing most people out of that market before government is ever involved.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
    12. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      people will just get cash jobs on the side and show the minimum income where they can't take your money because you need it for basic survival

    13. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by MachineShedFred · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Insurance would be a beneficial product, if the insurance company didn't try every little trick they can to avoid paying out on the policy. I've got no problems with an insurer who actually lives up to their end of the contract - but those are few and far between it seems. Now they just want to have government-mandated invoicing, followed by never actually insuring the risk.

      This is why everyone universally hates insurance companies, even more than telecommunications companies. They are the biggest bastards on the planet.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    14. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by internerdj · · Score: 2

      As a customer, insurance isn't about getting more money out than I put in. Insurance means that I will have the cash flow to deal with an unexpectedly and required large payout that I could never reliably have savings to cover. I've been working for 12 years now and one automobile accident could easily exceed the entirety of my collective savings including retirement. Over the same period the amount that I have paid in premiums over all my family's vehicles has been less than the replacement value of my current vehicle.

    15. Re: trying to figure out how to survive by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      If the debt never gets erased, then doing that only causes them more pain and suffering in the long run. They would never be freed of such a lifestyle. But someone who strives for a decent job would earn their way out of that debt and back into keeping all their income.

      Even in such a case, only a portion of non-needs income is diverted to debt payments.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    16. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess i should get out & drive wrecklessly just so i can finally get my moneys worth....

      I see what you (accidentally) did there.

    17. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Insurance, by design, is statistics. They are the ones who invented the field. AKA gambling.

    18. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      It's so funny when people are forced by the courts to maintain their life insurance policy after a divorce, with their ex the named beneficiary. Now THAT is a losing game.

      Life insurance is basically a bet that you personally will never collect on.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    19. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      They're a lot better than having the government track everywhere you go with your driverless car. I hope we have freedom to drive a human-operated, non-internet connected car in the future.

      Insurance companies are already doing the tracking thing.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    20. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Lab+Rat+Jason · · Score: 2

      I totally agree, but perhaps in a less venomous way:

      Why can't an industry say... "I see the writing on the wall... how's about we all pivot into a new and more useful industry instead of clinging to the wrecked sinking ship of an industry we've built."

      Take the newspaper industry for example. They should have wrapped it up long ago. If they had started the digital pivot earlier, they could have forged a completely new model moving subscriptions to electronic distribution... but by waiting and milking it for as long as possible, they gave ground to bloggers and independents, and now everyone has the expectation that they should get their news for free. It's simply a matter of setting expectations.

      --
      Which has more power: the hammer, or the anvil?
    21. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Not sure about your locale, but in the UK you are only required to have third-party cover. I believe most western countries have similar rules. If you're involved in an accident, then you must be able to pay for the damage that you inflict on others, or you are not allowed to use the public highways. You are free not to have any cover for damage to your property or self, and you can put up a bond if you are willing to pay the total cost out of pocket (or get very cheap premiums if you're willing to pay the first few thousand out of pocket and only claim for really bad accidents).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    22. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Insurance doesnt just exist to cover the damage to your car, it exists to cover liabilities an individual could never pay.

      Now I know that US auto insurance has ridiculous things like a cap on liability, but here in the UK my $350 a year covers me, my car, any injuries I sustain, any injuries I cause and any damage I cause.

      So, if I hit someone and their injuries are such that they need round the clock, 24-7 medical care, specialist equipment and other costly things, my insurance will cover that regardless of the ultimate cost - insurers have covered cases in the past with lump sums of milions, and ongoing care payments in millions a year.

      Thats the sort of costs a normal person could not hope to cover from their wages. Infact, thats the sort of costs a normal person couldnt cover even if you liquidated their entire estate. So if the person liable cant pay because of a liability cap, what happens in the US? The victim gets stuffed with all the costs of being crippled for the rest of their life.

      Thats what insurance is intended to cover, and in sane countries thats what it does cover.

    23. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by ranton · · Score: 1

      It's so funny when people are forced by the courts to maintain their life insurance policy after a divorce, with their ex the named beneficiary. Now THAT is a losing game.

      Life insurance is basically a bet that you personally will never collect on.

      If you have a court order to pay child or spousal support, it only makes sense you would be required to have a life insurance policy to protect that support. It saves you money on support if you pay the premiums instead of your ex-spouse, since your spouse would have to claim the support as income and pay taxes on it. So you have the choice of paying a $100 premium yourself or increasing your support by $125 to cover the extra needless taxes.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    24. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by bondsbw · · Score: 0

      I agree with all of that. I still think it should be a choice, because the bottom line is that the average person will pay more into insurance than they receive in benefits. (They have to, if the insurance company is to be solvent.) Some people could manage their risk and financial situation better than an insurance company could, and should have the right to do so.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    25. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Wow, really? What's the logic there?

    26. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      You miss the point - the point of insurance is that the collective pays out on awards that far exceeds the premium paid by any one member - I would like you be able to prove that anyone who isnt already a millionaire could cover a multimillion dollar award against them for life long medical costs.

      Oh, and you can self insure if you lodge a bond worth a certain amount, that amount being in the high six figures these days. You are still liable for the full amount yourself however, but the bond is intended to mature at a higher value.

    27. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by geekmux · · Score: 1

      If you do the math life insurance is on average a loss. On average more money has to go in than goes out.

      Capitalism and profit.

      If you understand the concept, the only "math" needed is common sense.

    28. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      You seem to be the one missing the point. Why do you think that people should not have choice? If someone can manage that risk outside of a structure that is typically considered "insurance" then they should be allowed to do so.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    29. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They will just buy a change in the law so everyone has to have personal liability insurance before they can ride in one,

    30. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Must be nice, I live in America (South Carolina), drive a prius, and my insurance is 250$ a month, with an absolutely spotless driving record, and it only covers up to 50,000 dollars in injury. It is the legal minimum in fact.

    31. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure it is. Just like any organized gambling.

      So far I've probably paid out something in the neighborhood of $20k in term life premiums. I'll never get that back. However, if I keel over and die tomorrow my kids are guaranteed money for college and a place to live until they're adults.

      There's insurance I won't bother with -- just like I didn't bother with life insurance until I had kids, and I don't bother with flood insurance since it's downhill in all directions (for a significant distance) from my house -- but for some things it's worth it.

    32. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      I'm not missing your point, I just think its ludicrous and opens the door to fraud and issues.

      Insurers reinsure their risk base with each other, which means that in this day and age no single insurer will go bankrupt from a massive claim.

      I highly doubt there is a way for an individual to manage the same risk when the risk runs into millions of dollars.

      And I have already said that you can self-insure through bond purchases - but thats still classed as insurance and comes with massive caveats.

      When the person who has the most to lose out on through a claim failing to be paid out is not the insurer nor the premium payer, I would much prefer for the industry and government to err on the side of caution and manage the risk as a pool everyone pays into. That way, few people end up being crippled for life without due recompense.

    33. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      Because the party to whom the liability is incurred does not have the choice to accept or reject the claim that self-insurance has successfully managed the risk, just like they didn't have the choice to have the liability owed to them in the first place.

    34. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a longtime consumer of air, I have this to say to all tobacco companies...

      As a longtime consumer of water, I have this to say to all manufacturers of alcohol...

      Hell of a slippery slope when talking about what is the "best thing for everyone involved", isn't it...

    35. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      Despite your claim, there is no insurance that will cover single possible case fully. There is always a limit to what an insurer will cover. What happens when someone's situation falls in that gap? The driver would be held responsible for the full costs, even though they invested so much of their money in premiums.

      But if the driver set aside a savings account to cover such situations, they would be ok. Or if the driver pooled money with his friends or neighborhood to create an unofficial kind of mutual insurance company, again he might be covered.

      And I have already said that you can self-insure through bond purchases - but thats still classed as insurance and comes with massive caveats.

      This probably only applies in your jurisdiction. I don't know of anything similar where I live. I either must get insurance, or get fined for not having it. Besides, this is precisely the kind of thing I'm advocating for, so I'm not sure why you think it is an argument against me.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    36. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      But they also don't have the choice to accept or reject the claim that standard insurance has successfully managed the risk, so I don't see how that's much different.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    37. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Here alimony and child support are taxed in the hands of the giver, not the recipient. Strange, but what can I say ...

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    38. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      The courts? Logic? Surely you jest :-)

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    39. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. I've got hit three times, which is the entirety of the accidents I've been a driver in. One distracted driver, two speeders (one under the influence). My insurance company (State Farm) basically told me they had no intention or desire to pursue a claim for me. Dropped them after they defrauded me (billed me for my regular premium, I paid, they replied a month later and said they decided to adjust my premium and I owed them 150% again or I'd be without coverage retroactively. Not surprisingly, the investigation found in my favor and I jumped ship to a new company. I'd love to see the need for them go away.

    40. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by evilviper · · Score: 1

      On average it will always be cheaper to pay for things yourself, however people are NOT any good at saving $50K of oh-sh*t money

      I have over $35,000 in insurance. I pay just over $350 each year for the policy. In other words, it would take 100 years of saving my premiums to match the coverage I've got.

      I don't expect to live that long. I can't wait 100 years for that balance to accumulate, before I start driving. My insurance will cover multiple accidents in that 100 years, not just one (though my rates would go up after the first one, changing the math somewhat). My premiums also cover related expenses like insurance company lawyers that I'd have to pay for on top of that cash balance.

      The your claim looks even more ridiculous if you look at homeowners insurance... Millions of dollars in coverage.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    41. Re: trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the highest risk drivers are under the age of 25. Even assuming 9 years of insurance (age 16 to 25) at $150 a month that's $16,200 by age 25. That won't go very far in an accident. I'm assuming this money will have to be in a relatively safe account and so the rate of return would be close to inflation and can be ignored in this exercise.

      There was a crash in my town just last year that killed 3 teenagers (around age 18). The $3,600 the driver would have saved up under your plan wouldn'the go very far towards the medical costs (as not everybody died at the scene), funeral costs, or the property damage.

      I'm sure I'm biased because I work in insurance, but if you read some of these claims your opinion may change too. Remember, not all accidents are just fender benders.

    42. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by LiENUS · · Score: 1

      since your spouse would have to claim the support as income and pay taxes on it.

      http://family.findlaw.com/child-support/child-support-and-taxes-q-a.html/

      A: No, child support payments are not considered taxable income, according to the IRS. Child support payments are neither deductible by the payer nor taxable to the payee. So when you calculate your gross income to see if you are required to file a tax return, do not include child support payments received.

      Not sure where you get your info from but it looks like it may be out of date.

    43. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by LiENUS · · Score: 1

      If by "here" you mean the USA then thats federal law so all states.

    44. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Here divorce is civil law, so up to the individual provinces.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    45. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by ranton · · Score: 1

      Sorry, spousal support is taxable income. I didn't have a child during my divorce so I didn't realize child support is different.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    46. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      With all due respect, insurance in decent countries has no liability limit - and I live in a decent country.

      As I said before, my few hundred dollars in car insurance premiums would cover me even for a $10million lump sum and $2million a year care awards (both figures made up to emphasise the point, I can find actual examples of long term payouts of a similar level if you really want - they make the news occasionally here) to a third party. Because in my country my car insurance coverage has no liability limit.

      This is why I find the US auto insurance situation ludicrous - how can you have an insurance policy with liability limits on third party payouts?

      Any insurance which covers a third party should not have any liability limit, because that insurance is there to make things right for that third party regardless of what it costs to do so.

    47. Re: trying to figure out how to survive by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      I'm not just talking about liability limits. I'm talking about gaps in coverage that affect your own property such as depreciation gaps, no coverage for custom parts on a stolen vehicle, no coverage for the vehicle of driven by someone who isn't in your policy, no coverage for personal belongings of passengers when the vehicle is stolen, no coverage for your vehicle when it is being used in commercial business such as pizza delivery, and so on. I am also talking about deductibles. And this conversation is not limited to auto insurance, what about having a home policy without flood coverage or one that covers only belongings within the dwelling but not outside (such as fencing)? Medical insurance that doesn't cover infertility treatments?

      Is it not feasible that I could come up with a plan that covers my situation better than generic insurance does? Sure it is.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    48. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, in the UK the medical care is free, so that is a big difference in costs to insurance underwriters. The rest of the post re. lost income etc. still holds.

    49. Re:trying to figure out how to survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd love to know what vehicle you drive that is 12 years old and worth more than the 12 years x 2+ insurance premiums. Does the insurance cover the solid silver rims?

      In the region I live, insurance runs to approximately 1k per year per vehicle. A ten year old vehicle is roughly (rule-of-thumb) worth 10% of its purchase price. So your car cost $120k? Perhaps I have misunderstood, and you replace your vehicle every three years, making the replacement value $15-40k, which might make the sums work, but you are then neglecting the cost of replacing the vehicle.

      In any case, auto *vehicle* insurance is one of the ones that I consider a waste of cash - in my experience the premiums are so high that I'd rather save that money and get a new-to-me car every few years. Cover for medical/liability expenses is different though.

  5. how pleasent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Can you imagine a world where we don't *need* insurance anymore? The idea that we are even close to that is amazing.

  6. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Sounds like the future is for candy asses.

    1. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1

  7. The real fun starts with "risk shaping" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...when the insurance companies "shape" the risk of some areas (by hiring jobless secret service thugs) or of some activities (distribute amphetamines in a night club?).

    Can't wait for this brave new world!

    1. Re:The real fun starts with "risk shaping" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that, it's a great way to punish poor people for living in the wrong part of town, eating at McDonalds instead of Outback Steakhouse, or shopping at wal-mart instead of whole foods, and alert me in real time if I am not living a proper well-heeled white man's life.

      I can only imagine getting the notice of my Rate Increase, determined to be necessary because as Pasty White Skinned Male I spend too much time in Poor Black areas of town, putting me at an increased risk of carjacking.

  8. WTF??? by gstoddart · · Score: 2

    While they'll no doubt use it to set your insurance rates, they also plan to "send you advice, alerts, coupons or discounts on insurance or other goods and services." Traveler's Insurance is thinking along somewhat similar lines. They want to create "a device that offers specific suggestions for managing errands and other travel. Customers would be able to see a map of 'risk zone' data for places they want to go, such as stores, restaurants and roads. They could then plan the day 'with an eye toward how risky such endeavors may be,' according to the patent application."

    So, what, they want to be our nannies, and they think people will just let themselves be tracked to prop up their failing business model?

    I'm sorry, but why the hell would anybody want this? Wow, gee, I'll just go ahead and implant this device so you can monitor everything I do and monetize it.

    How about no? I'm glad I live in a country which has real privacy laws, instead of one in which corporations assume they can just insinuate themselves into every aspect of your life for their own gain.

    So much bullshit.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:WTF??? by kilfarsnar · · Score: 3, Informative

      So, what, they want to be our nannies, and they think people will just let themselves be tracked to prop up their failing business model?

      No, they think people will let themselves be tracked for BIG SAVINGS! and convenience. Based on what I have seen of people's behavior and ability to not think things through, I think it might work.

      So much bullshit.

      Oh yeah.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    2. Re:WTF??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, what, they want to be our nannies, and they think people will just let themselves be tracked to prop up their failing business model?

      No, they think people will let themselves be tracked for BIG SAVINGS! and convenience. Based on what I have seen of people's behavior and ability to not think things through, I think it might work.

      So much bullshit.

      Oh yeah.

      And the sad thing is that the majority already does allow this.

    3. Re:WTF??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While they'll no doubt use it to set your insurance rates, they also plan to "send you advice, alerts, coupons or discounts on insurance or other goods and services." Traveler's Insurance is thinking along somewhat similar lines. They want to create "a device that offers specific suggestions for managing errands and other travel. Customers would be able to see a map of 'risk zone' data for places they want to go, such as stores, restaurants and roads. They could then plan the day 'with an eye toward how risky such endeavors may be,' according to the patent application."

      So, what, they want to be our nannies, and they think people will just let themselves be tracked to prop up their failing business model?

      I'm sorry, but why the hell would anybody want this? Wow, gee, I'll just go ahead and implant this device so you can monitor everything I do and monetize it.

      How about no? I'm glad I live in a country which has real privacy laws, instead of one in which corporations assume they can just insinuate themselves into every aspect of your life for their own gain.

      So much bullshit.

      So, you live somewhere where all cell phones come with a bare OS, and no extra features. All smart TVs, computers, and network services are all paid for, and nothing is ever offered for free, because no one ever subsidizes any service with your privacy data.

      So, what part of Mars are you from? Just curious, since you're so fucking clueless about humans lack of privacy you must be off-planet.

  9. I got something they can do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about instead of trying to figure out ever more intrusive and outrageous schemes in their attempt at finding literately pennies in the couch, what they could do is fuck off and die.

  10. Is it really a big issue? by scamper_22 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Are driverless cars really the big game changer for auto insurance?
    I'm in Ontario, Canada and I just don't see how this is going to change things.
    We already have 'no-fault' auto insurance, which basically means you buy car insurance to protect yourself and liability.
    You don't go around suing the other drivers or anything. When you make a claim, you just deal with your own insurance company.
    The rate you pay is still based on your risk.

    So, we have driverless cars. You still buy insurance to protect yourself and liability.
    Maybe some of the risk metrics change. Like cars with a better record of being driverless get lower rates? But that's no different than rating cars for safety today.

    I suppose some countries might need to change how their auto-insurance works. Moving more towards no-fault insurance.
    But it's not like the world doesn't have plenty of models to choose from that would better fit the driverless world.
    They don't have to reinvent the wheel as far as I can tell.

    1. Re:Is it really a big issue? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      So, we have driverless cars. You still buy insurance to protect yourself and liability.

      That's not how I see it.

      I'm not paying for risk insurance for a driverless car. Let the maker assume that.

      A driverless car is something in which I am a passenger, can get into it after a few drinks in the pub, and for which I will take ZERO liability.

      In a truly driverless scenario, the liability doesn't extend to me, because I have no inputs. If it runs over someone, let the company who made it own that liability.

      Any scenario in which I need to take responsibility and liability for when the driverless part doesn't work ... then I'll stick with driving my own damned car like I do now.

      See, with real driverless cars, the owner is just cargo, and insurance becomes property insurance. Anything else is marketing bullshit where they can pass the buck to you.

      It's a game changer, because auto insurance would cease to exist as it does now. Otherwise consumers are paying for insurance for the makers of those cars who are just passing the buck to us.

      No fault is meaningless when that "fault" is defined by a corporation and whatever lack of QA they've done. Sorry, I'm not paying for that.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Is it really a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, because what they think is going to happen is we won't be buying cars. The local robo-cab companies will have the roads flooded with auto-cars that are just a few seconds away via an app.

      I'm in Ontario too, and the only place this will work is downtown Toronto. This is great for congested cities where owning a car is a liability and weather isn't an issue. But, as you know, this idea is asinine for us, because Ontario is big and chances are the nearest cab is hours away. You need a vehicle to live here, it's that simple.

      The big thinkers who write these kinds of articles live in the city, and are convinced that the entire world is one big metropolis and everyone's problems are the same as theirs.

    3. Re:Is it really a big issue? by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      The whole concept reeks,

      Having lived in no-fault states and Texas, I'm really not sure the actual implementation is any different. People drive like raving lunatics in all big cities, pretty much showing the example of how not to behave.

      The only difference is now when some idiot hits you, you have to play this dumb game of waiting for hte police to arrive, taking pictures of everything and trying to trick the other guy into admitting fault or some bad behavior.

    4. Re:Is it really a big issue? by clodney · · Score: 1

      I think there are 2 completely different scenarios:

      1. You call for a driverless car service, like a taxi or an Uber today - you don't have insurance, the service does. You are a passenger.
      2. You own a driverless car, and have it pick you up. You carry the liability insurance on the vehicle. You may turn around and sue the manufacturer, but there are going to be a whole host of things where you need insurance. What if the vehicle was negligently maintained? What if you engaged an emergency override of some sort and caused the accident? What if you threw something from the window of the vehicle?

      So for a vehicle you own, you still carry insurance, but since the frequency of accidents should be significantly lower, the insurance should be cheaper, meaning that industry revenue and profits will fall signficantly.

    5. Re:Is it really a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A driverless car is something in which I am a passenger, can get into it after a few drinks in the pub, and for which I will take ZERO liability.

      What about when your car's logs are pulled and they show that the car would have avoided the accident, but couldn't because you skimped on maintenance?

      "But I always take care of my car!" Yeah, maybe you do. But then again, maybe you don't, and even if you do you can be damned sure the manufacturer is going to take every possible opportunity to prove that you didn't. And sometimes they'll succeed (maybe even legitimately!). When that happens, you'll want and need insurance to cover your liability.

      I look forward to the reduction in premiums that robocars will bring, but you're kidding yourself if you think you're going to get away from them entirely.

    6. Re:Is it really a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think its obvious that people will still need insurance, but I suspect in the medium term the way it works will change dramatically. It would make sense for automakers and their dealer networks themselves to wrap insurance and maintenance in one package. For the automaker this would:
      - Lower the chances of paying an insurance claim due to mechanical failure or lack of software updates. Periodic maintenance would make sure all SW updates are done, sensors checked, etc. Manufacturers would have an incentive to do a good job on maintenance.
      - capture car buyers in a subscription-type model when, in theory, they will be selling fewer cars since they will be better maintained, driven more gently, and experience fewer traumatic events. They would also lose fewer customers to third party shops.
      - Profit on the insurance side as well as the maintenance side.

      For the owner the payoff should be that:
      - the subscription package should cost less than the combined insurance + maintenance costs now.
      - cars should last longer with routine maintenance
      - cars should be safer.
      - it would be more convenient.

      The big losers would be insurance companies and third party repair shops.

      In the longer term, why even own a car? I think this will eventually be the status quo, but the transition won't be immediate. People need to get used to the idea and there needs to be a big enough fleet of on-demand cars for it to be convenient. So its not enough to have a few people here and there participate. It will have to be a critical mass of users for it to be worth while. My guess is that model will hit big city centers first (NY, downtown Chicago) and then filter out to the suburbs over the course of a decade or two. Rural areas will probable never operate on that model.

    7. Re:Is it really a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the risk of driverless car accidents is 50% less than regular cars, then rates will go down by 50% to match that risk. The insurance industries revenues will be cut in half, which means 50% of employees have to be cut. Why is that hard for you to understand? In reality the number is probably closer to 90%.

    8. Re:Is it really a big issue? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Truly driverless cars will already be equipped with sensors and usage logs that will alert the owner and the manufacturer that the vehicle has to be seen within X days or Y km or it will refuse to start.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    9. Re:Is it really a big issue? by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      There is a lot of misunderstanding around no-fault insurance. If you look at insurance as a tax that adds no value, you probably hate the no-fault provisions. On the other hand, if you want to protect yourself and your family, the no-fault model works a lot better. If I have a no-fault personal-injury protection policy for $1 million, I'm guaranteed that my medical bills get covered if I'm in a wreck. OTOH if no-fault insurance isn't an option, the person who runs into me may have only the state minimum required liability insurance (like $30k or something). This isn't a risk that I can take. So I'd have to buy a policy for $0.997 million dollars to cover the deficiency. The price of the two are probably about the same. The "no fault" provisions don't apply to property damage. Of course maybe the person had no insurance at all, so now I'm really back to buying the full policy. If an indigent person gets injured the state will end up picking up the tab for them. But that's a separate issue.

    10. Re:Is it really a big issue? by NetNed · · Score: 1

      Actually people, overall, are pretty good at driving. Issues now a days arise from distractions. Far too many think holding their phones out at eye level while they drive is perfectly fine, even when you give them dirty looks or if your windows are down suggest that what they are doing is dangerous, they flip out, because they are so wrapped up in themselves, they are too stupid and inconsiderate to think of the dangers they put everyone in. They also are oblivious of the traffic issues they create. But when you think of the speeds on a modern highway, with people traveling a few feet from each other, there not being total pile-ups everywhere is a testament to peoples ability to drive.

    11. Re:Is it really a big issue? by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      "The rate you pay is still based on your risk."

      If driverless cars never have accidents and all cars are driverless cars that risk becomes zero thus the rate you pay would be...zero.

      Of course universal adoption of driverless cars is even further away than useable driverless cars themselves but eventually it may/will/could happen.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    12. Re:Is it really a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the list of things on your list are things that I control and since I assess my risk of doing those things at zero (as there are no random causes and I wouldn't do the ones that aren't), I'd rather self-insure.

    13. Re:Is it really a big issue? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Ontario guy here. The insurance companies still assess fault, and use that to determine who pays or doesn't pay their deductible, weather your rates get jacked up, and so on.

      No fault, in this context, just means you deal with your insurance company, the other guy deals with his, they both pay out pretty quickly, then they fight over who was at fault themselves.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    14. Re:Is it really a big issue? by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      I still don't see how this changes things.
      The robo-cab companies would have insurance the same way.

      Whether you own the robo-car or some cab company owns the car, the car is still insured and life goes on.

    15. Re:Is it really a big issue? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      80% of Canadians live in cities. So, eventually you'll have to park your human-controlled vehicle before getting on a highway and renting a self-driving vehicle, because otherwise you'll be too much of a risk.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    16. Re:Is it really a big issue? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      But if I am in a driverless car then an accident is never my fault. The insurance of the person who is at fault should be paying for the accident.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    17. Re:Is it really a big issue? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      If I have to carry liability insurance for a driverless car, then it is not ready to be on the road yet. I'll just keep using a manual car, thanks.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    18. Re:Is it really a big issue? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      As I said, if I need to safeguard against the manufacturer being lazy or incompetent, or get into semantics about what's my fault and what isn't ... then I have no interest whatsoever in this technology, and the technology is likely to be doomed to fail as the people who make it give themselves weasel room to get out of liability.

      If I have to get into a lawsuit with the manufacturer because they screwed, I'm going to get buried in lawyers who try to deflect the blame.

      So, no, I will never pay for liability insurance for the autonomous aspects of a car. And of there is no 100% clear line of demarcation of liability, it's a losing game in which the people who bought it will get fucked by billion dollar companies.

      Sorry, no. It all works, or it's all crap. That middle ground is just asking for legal and financial bullshit beyond imagining.

      If we're playing "what if games", the technology is simple too damned immature to be used.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    19. Re:Is it really a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalism is based on growth and shareholder return. Less need will drive down shareholder value.

      You'd think less people being maimed in auto accidents and less property damage would be a good thing, but for auto insurance companies and auto repair shops and car dealers, it's very bad.

      And since insurance companies and repair shops/auto dealers spend lavishly on lobbyists, expect to see some of the worst legislation ever regarding electric cars and at some point, the Uber's of the world.

    20. Re:Is it really a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the GP post said their region has no fault insurance, so each driver's insurance pays regardless of the cause.

    21. Re:Is it really a big issue? by Toshito · · Score: 1

      You don't know what you're talking about.

      Have you even done some research on no fault?

      Where I live we have this, and you can't flee from the scene of the accident. If you do that and they find you, you'll have a huge fine and they revoke your driver's permit for 30 days.

      What it means is that if I'm in an accident, I don't have anything to do with the other driver beside exchanging info. If he's not insured, that's not my problem. That's my insurance company's problem, they'll deal with him.

      I can still be found at fault and will have to pay a deductible if that's the case, but I will only deal with MY insurance company. They'll deal with the other insurance company or the individual themselves if there's a problem.

      All this is only for material damages mind you, because for injuries we have a collective insurance which is paid by cars registrations and driver's permits. This insurance automatically covers EVERYONE on the road, including pedestrians, cyclists, event tourists (so if you come here and get hit by a car while crossing the road, you're covered!).

      No fucking lawsuits, no millions $$$ of damage, no ambulance chasers, just peace of mind.

      --
      Try it! Library of Babel
    22. Re:Is it really a big issue? by citylivin · · Score: 1

      "So, we have driverless cars. You still buy insurance to protect yourself and liability."

      I think you are missing the point that driverless cars would in theory have zero accidents, as long as everyone else had driverless cars. So the argument is that there is no need for insurance anymore because there will be no accidents.

      In BC where there is one insurer and that is the government, i could very well see them dropping rates to zero for driverless people. They would still pay out for acts of god such as a meteor falling on you, or maybe the automakers themselves would pay out seeing as it would be so rare. It could be built into the purchase price of the car. That would work as long as you couldn't override the controls and "go manual". In which case that would be maybe taken into account when insuring or being in an accident. Im sure these new driverless cars could track that and report it to the insurance company, maybe only then do you get a bill.

      Regardless, im sure we are AT LEAST 20 years away from driverless cars being mass adopted. We've had electric cars for years and they still haven't reached more than a small percentage of the driving populace. So its kind of pointless to talk about this, like most other futurist topics. Reality has ways of working itself out over time, with solutions and new problems that we can't even imagine now.

      --
      As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
    23. Re:Is it really a big issue? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      So, we have driverless cars. You still buy insurance to protect yourself and liability.

      The disruption is that insurance companies will have to dramatically shrink, instead of growing. If there's only 1/10th as many accidents, they can only charge 1/10th as much in premiums. That means they have to reduce their employees, office-space, and more by a factor of 10, and only have 1/10th as much profit to play with.

      It's actually worse than that, as they'll try to maintain a higher percentage of the premium as profits, much like oil companies do when oil prices fall, which means your 10X less valuable insurance might still only save you 50% the premium... The slide in their valuation will hit them and the stock market, and they're open to disruption by leaner start-ups who don't have the huge existing liabilities the big insurance companies can't shake-off so easily.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  11. Buh bye! by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

    While those posting that insurance companies aren't useful are COMPLETELY wrong, this is really just a case of sometimes an industry isn't needed anymore. If and when we no longer need drivers, we aren't going to need insurance for those drivers. Really not a problem for anyone who isn't an insurance company, and for those who are, it's natural that they'd try to find something else to do. If they can't find anything useful for us, the consumer, then they're welcome to follow the buggy whip manufacturers of old.

    1. Re:Buh bye! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You aren't needed anymore either. Seriously. After you die, there might be 4-5 people who bitch and moan for a week, then they will go back to the Bud Light and Seinfeld reruns.

    2. Re:Buh bye! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What will be *very* interesting is Berkshire Hathaway. They play with the float of a couple of car insurance companies... It will be interesting if they can keep up with the way they have been doing with that sort of business model. They are fairly well diversified. But is the diversification because of the float or because it is a good business model. Time will tell.

      I could see insurance companies transforming themselves into travel agency's. Sort of like Triple A. Part of the insurance 'perk' is travel guide stuff (which of course you pay a small amount for). I could see that. Say I want to go from NY to SD and by car. If they could make a nice curated guide to go with that. That could be good for me. There are travel agencies to do that. But few also offer insurance...

    3. Re:Buh bye! by SecurityGuy · · Score: 4, Funny

      What a terrible thing to say. My family would never drink Bud Light.

    4. Re:Buh bye! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      AAA tried to do that, and it's not exactly a big draw to sign up with them. That's something the rental company is more likely to offer as a freebee when you book your car.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  12. Forget driverless cars by swb · · Score: 1

    ...how much of this data collection is designed around coming up with "risk correlates" that allow them to increase your insurance costs beyond what they could charge based on your accident and claims history?

    It reminds me of the credit reporting agencies that want to include your driving history as a factor in your credit risk instead of determining your credit risk based solely on your use of credit.

    1. Re:Forget driverless cars by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

      It reminds me of the credit reporting agencies that want to include your driving history as a factor in your credit risk instead of determining your credit risk based solely on your use of credit.

      The insurance companies are just looking for ways to charge you more than what a typical driver would pay.

  13. Take your buggy whips and go home. by pla · · Score: 1

    No. I don't want any alternative services from you fucking parasites. I have auto insurance because my state requires me to, simple as that. The second I can kick you leeches to the curb, we no longer have a "relationship".

    Don't offer me coupons, don't offer me maps, don't offer me roadside assistance, don't offer me advice - "Offer" me your absence. Just dry up and blow away like a good little obsolete industry should.

  14. "Risk zones", a.k.a. extortion? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...Customers would be able to see a map of 'risk zone' data for places they want to go...

    I wonder how much the insurance companies will charge business to assure their location does not show up in a "risk zone"?

    .
    "Pay us $1,000 insurance per month and we'll ensure your address doesn't appear in a risk zone...."

    That could be quite the revenue source.

    1. Re:"Risk zones", a.k.a. extortion? by del_diablo · · Score: 1

      Yes and no. Insurance earns money off accidents not happening, because they are huge. A 1/1000 decrease in accidents is what.... several millions to them? That still applies to 1/10000 and 1/100000 is still millions of millions of payments.

    2. Re:"Risk zones", a.k.a. extortion? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I love how people always fall back to the evil corporation scheme as if corporations don't have teams of lawyers that keep them in check.

      Shit ratings companies can't even run a website rating restaurants without an endless string of lawsuits about where the stars come from, you think someone will think they can make a business out of extortion in the most sue happy country in the world?

      Good luck.

    3. Re:"Risk zones", a.k.a. extortion? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 2

      I love how people always fall back to the evil corporation scheme as if corporations don't have teams of lawyers that keep them in check.

      I love how people always fall back to the evil corporation scheme as if corporations don't have teams of lawyers that keep them from getting in trouble for their bad deeds.

      .
      FTFY

    4. Re:"Risk zones", a.k.a. extortion? by geekmux · · Score: 1

      ...Customers would be able to see a map of 'risk zone' data for places they want to go...

      I wonder how much the insurance companies will charge business to assure their location does not show up in a "risk zone"?

      . "Pay us $1,000 insurance per month and we'll ensure your address doesn't appear in a risk zone...."

      That could be quite the revenue source.

      What the hell makes you think "risk zones" will be this static?

      In the future, I see insurance companies adjusting rates and risk zones by the day...or by the hour, or even by the activity, all based on their desire to define "risk" and charge appropriately, which I see that map and revenue stream remaining about as static as Uber price rates on New Years Eve.

      Oh, a bomb threat happened at your local mall? All insurance rates instantly increased 20% for all cars in the parking lot (all tracked by GPS of course). When will the rates decrease again? When law enforcement says it's safe.

      An actual terror attack in your city? Oh, that's a green light to increase insurance rates for a while in that area. How long? Until law enforcement says it's no longer a terrorist threat.

      I hope we all see a common theme as to how they will yet again use the generic threat of "terrorism" to justify this kind of (permanent) extortion.

    5. Re:"Risk zones", a.k.a. extortion? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Yeah because no corporation ever has been punished for something stupid like this. Get a grip.

  15. "a map of 'risk zone' data'" by Nutria · · Score: 1

    Whoever came up with that idea must live in a lily white neighborhood, because this is about as close to red zoning as is possible.

    Hell, it is red zoning...

    --
    "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    1. Re:"a map of 'risk zone' data'" by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      This is pretty much using risk analysis to raise rates where there is more risk with the data to back up that analysis. Redlining was prejudice masquerading as risk analysis. Mind you the two will overlap. But if you're using more than just that red line on a map also looking at the people as individuals etc etc. This will probably drive gentrification, which tends to be a good thing for the neighborhood overall.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    2. Re:"a map of 'risk zone' data'" by torkus · · Score: 1

      Yup.

      Insurance is also discriminatory, legally.

      What other industry can legally and directly charge more (i.e. discriminate) based on AGE, GENDER, marital status (which, until recently, was also linked to sexual orientation), education, neighborhood, non-felony convictions (i.e. tickets)?

      People flip their lid if a cop decides to search a black person driving an expensive car with tints and a loud stereo through a terrible neighborhood and repeatedly past a known crack house...but an insurance company blithely does their equivalent with every single customer.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    3. Re:"a map of 'risk zone' data'" by Nutria · · Score: 1

      This is pretty much using risk analysis to raise rates

      Not according to the article: "Customers would be able to see a map of 'risk zone' data for places they want to go, such as stores, restaurants and roads. They could then plan the day 'with an eye toward how risky such endeavors may be,' according to the patent application."

      Jesse Jackson and his ilk are going to have a field day with this...

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    4. Re:"a map of 'risk zone' data'" by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Oh no people might be given information like your more likely to be mugged in this neighborhood than that one. Still seems useful a clueless traveler for example.

      Sounds like the maps that overlayed crime stats awhile back. Or the ones that show people on the sex offender list etc etc.

      It's still actual facts being used to make a rational decision that they will try to call racial bias. Facts are facts more crime happens in many predominantly minority neighborhoods. You can try and claim it's due to differences in policing but at the end of the day if more violent crime happens in a given area it's not as safe as another. The cause of this may well be related to poverty drug use etc etc but that does not change the cold hard fact that one place is riskier than another. It's hard to dispute numbers like http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub... urban settings are simply more dangerous on average per person. On the good news urban crime had diminished a lot and crime overall has gone down in the last decade or so.

      Jesse Jackson has a field day with anything he can try and take advantage off regardless of reality to further his own political agenda.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    5. Re:"a map of 'risk zone' data'" by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      I hear what you're saying, and to some extent, I even agree, but at least the insurance companies can pull statistics out to justify their decisions.

      Cops pulling over a guy for DWB, not so much.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    6. Re:"a map of 'risk zone' data'" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blacks are 12% of the US population and commit 45% of the serious violent felonies.

    7. Re:"a map of 'risk zone' data'" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the UK, at least, they can't use gender as an indicator of risk any more, as that would be sexist.

  16. Umbrella policies by MikeRT · · Score: 1

    Because of two factors:

    1. Pedestrians won't modify their behavior in any meaningfully large numbers.
    2. Cars will still miscalculate and get into accidents. At least early on, a few of this will probably end up being W...T...F... sized accidents involving bad programming and human error in human-driven vehicles.

    WRT #1, people jaywalk all the time. I frequently see people just jump out and expect a car to instantly stop for them. Well, what happens if the self-driven car either doesn't detect them or doesn't do so in time? Can you imagine all of the faux populist outrage?

    1. Re:Umbrella policies by torkus · · Score: 1

      Self driving cars can and will react faster than any person ever could.

      Yes, there's definitely some intuition...you see that car and know it's going through the light or that pedestrian is about to sprint across 6 lanes of traffic. However you can program at least some of that in:

      Evaluation - clear intersection, green light, right of way
      Tracking - other vehicles approaching driving path; current speed and direction is towards this vehicle
      Evaluation - other vehicles are required to yield due to traffic signal; evaluate delta-V of other vehicle; evaluate probability of vehicle stopping to avoid collision

      Pretty sure this already exists in a more robust form or no driverless vehicle would go through an intersection while someone is approaching the perpendicular red light. There are some interesting things you can do with a driver that's constantly vigilant and has an unlimited attention span.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    2. Re:Umbrella policies by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      I don't think the problem for the insurers is that insurance will be unnecessary, it's that the nature of insurance will change. Right now, you have hundreds of millions of customers. With the self-driving-car, most likely models of how SDCs will be put into people's hands reduce the number of insurance customers considerably, either to owners of fleets (the SDC as Taxi model), or even the manufacturers (the leased-to-individuals model.)

      Suddenly, the need for tens of thousands of agents, of huge databases collecting driver demographics, and so on, disappears, in their place a small sales team and some per-model accident analytics and feature analysis. In very real terms, even if the insurance company remains in the same hands (and what's to say Ford wouldn't just fund its insurance with a giant escrow fund? Many large companies fund their health insurance that way...) the company, as we know it today, wouldn't exist. 99% of their staff would be eliminated or replaced.

      That's what they're worrying about.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    3. Re:Umbrella policies by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I'm taking a 'wait and see' approach to driverless cars on snow and ice. Often when I drive on ice the front wheels do not point in the direction that the car is going. It's just a fact. If you want to drive without the front wheels losing grip then you need spiked tires or to drive walking speed almost all the time.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  17. Abuse potential, race to bottom by Jezral · · Score: 1

    Customers would be able to see a map of 'risk zone' data for places they want to go, such as stores, restaurants and roads. They could then plan the day 'with an eye toward how risky such endeavors may be,' according to the patent application."

    Want to drive a competitor out of business? Stage some "risky" things in his area.

    And who gets to decide what's risky anyway? This could blow up tiny incidents to something that causes massive droves of people to avoid a store.

    And yes, while this is already somewhat possible with today's internet, we don't have a central authority who decides what's risky, and certainly not one with money invested in inventing riskiness.

    1. Re:Abuse potential, race to bottom by Imrik · · Score: 1

      Risky is anything that causes insurance to have to pay out.

  18. Red Barcetta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Before the motor laws"

  19. Criminal Liability for self driving cars by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Criminal Liability for self driving cars also needs to be worked out. Maybe it can be fun to have a hard-ass judge hold the deep-pockets in contempt of court if they try the EULA BS.

    1. Re:Criminal Liability for self driving cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The insurance companies already have a clear idea of how it should work:
      The driver was not driving, therefore negligent, and he must pay for it.
      The person struck could not possibly be the victim of a car that was not even being driven by someone, and therefore must have been at fault, and therefore must pay for it.

      Now we'll just collect the full amounts from each and... What do you mean "what about my medical bills"?
      All of that trauma existed BEFORE you made this claim. Pre-existing conditions are not covered. Neither are acts of god, and we've got plenty of people telling us that little bastard's in everywhere and everything.

    2. Re:Criminal Liability for self driving cars by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      and what about the Criminal parts that are not covered in a civil case?
      Like when auto drive car runs over a kid? Let's just say the senors / software messed and marked the kid as safe to run over?

      Or say a auto drive truck miss read a traffic light and hit a bus full of kids?

      Now lets have it happen in a....

      Big city

      A small rural area

      In a small rural area where the courts and cops are very local.

      The courts take on stuff very a lot and some places are not kind to the big city lawyers.

  20. More Agony Please by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    Anything that hurts the insurance industry is a blessing.

  21. I hope for the death of the insurance industry. by Lumpy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Insurance is the longest running legalized scam. And they have been getting steadily greedy. For example car insurance companies made RECORD PROFITS last year and they are raising rates because gas prices are too low.

    It's time either they get heavily controlled by the government again or go away.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  22. Driverless cars may not sell that well... by juniorkindergarten · · Score: 1

    Auto insurance will always be necessary because shit happens. No matter how smart the software becomes there is always something that can happen that the programmers didn't take into account. Example: an auto thief running a red light, pushing your car into pedestrians...who get sued?

    People buy cars because they love to drive.

    Driverless cars will appeal to people who want to play with gadgets instead of driving, or are terrible drivers, or the few who don't like to drive. Driverless cars will not take over the roads. Ever.

    --
    "Every security scheme that is based on secrets eventually fails." - Steve Jobs
    1. Re:Driverless cars may not sell that well... by ezelkow1 · · Score: 1

      I think you greatly over estimate the amount of people that 'love to drive'. IMHO the majority of people own a card solely for transportation, not to take it out on joy rides or cruise. Its just there to get them to/from work, the store, school, etc.

      For many being able to sit and relax instead of having to pay attention on their way to work may actually make the morning more tolerable. Even for those that like to joy ride having a driverless car would still be great. I.E. trips out in the mountains I would much prefer to have a driverless car so that I can enjoy the scenery as well instead of fleeting glances while I look out for the next curve or mountain biker

    2. Re:Driverless cars may not sell that well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      One thing that seems to get overlooked in all that discussion on driverless cars is, that drivers will actually have less skill at driving when they own a driverless car.

      the reason most People dont have accidents on a regular basis, is that they have a lot of experience. driving comes natural to most drivers, because they spend hundreds of hours a year behind the wheel.
      it will be interesting to see how non-autonomous accident rates will be affected as soon as drivers let the car take over for the most part.

    3. Re:Driverless cars may not sell that well... by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      People buy cars because they love to drive.

      $DIETY, no. I hate to drive. I buy cars because they're the most time efficient way to get to the places I need to go, carrying the set of people and stuff I need to take with me.

    4. Re:Driverless cars may not sell that well... by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      But if shit happens in an automated car then it isn't my fault, so why would I pay for insurance to protect myself. If someone else has a manual car and they hit me, then their insurance pays for it. That's how it works where I am, at least.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  23. Biggest problem by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    What to do with all the people who are now insurance agents - Ark B?

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Biggest problem by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      What happens to all the counties that pay their bills using traffic tickets? The automatic cars will surely have a map showing the bad spots, and adjust their driving to match risk.

  24. Let's get real for a second here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Liability will never shift away from the person who is responsible for operating the motor vehicle. The multi-billion dollar corporate lobbyists will see to that.

  25. ^ doesnt own a cell phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    apparently

    1. Re:^ doesnt own a cell phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can't drive your own car, you may as well take the bus. Driverless cars are stupid beyond belief. Which customers asked for this feature?

  26. It's not just insurance companies by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    I believe it was mentioned in the Economist that US localities issue something like $6 billion in moving violations every year.
    With driverless cars, this drops to nearly zero.

    Granted:
    a) with a fully-implemented driverless system, logically then you probably need fewer officers because you're not policing the roads so much. Less ground to cover; and
    b) we all despise the blink-and-you-miss-it towns squatting alongside the interstate, with their 70mph-to-35mph speed limits for 2 blocks, with one lazy-ass cop writing speeding tickets all day long to more or less fund the entire city budget.

    But that latter caricature glosses over an important point: that cop sitting there is, in fact, on duty and available for emergency roles. They're not going to (or bloody well better not) sit and write you a ticket when a store gets robbed or someone gets shot. Essentially, the traffic-ticket revenue is an opportunistic and pretty-straightfoward user tax, filling the hours and hours of "nothing happening" so that when something important does happen, that officer is available.

    Without that $6bn in revenue, police budgets will be distinctly pinched, and likely cause localities to raise taxes to pay for the level of police coverage to which they've become accustomed. Essentially that, or driverless cars will come with a HOST of user-based surcharges to prevent this (effective) tax from falling back on the locality.

    I doubt the new system will ultimately be cheaper than the old.

    --
    -Styopa
  27. Snapshot from progressive by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
    They already are trying it and finding less than 35% of people actually do it. This is up from 20% a few years ago, mainly due to massive advertising.

    Assuming that 50% of people would benefit and the other 50% would lose, that means a solid 15% of the population is intentionally refusing to do it. Note, that number is probably higher, as most people think they are better drivers than they actually are. Let's say that 70% of the population THINKS they would benefit from it, which means that approximately 50% of their target market says "NO thanks, I like my privacy."

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Snapshot from progressive by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      They already are trying it and finding less than 35% of people actually do it. This is up from 20% a few years ago, mainly due to massive advertising.

      Assuming that 50% of people would benefit and the other 50% would lose, that means a solid 15% of the population is intentionally refusing to do it. Note, that number is probably higher, as most people think they are better drivers than they actually are. Let's say that 70% of the population THINKS they would benefit from it, which means that approximately 50% of their target market says "NO thanks, I like my privacy."

      Well, that's encouraging at least. Maybe people will wake up and smell the surveillance.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
  28. slashdot I just don't know who you are anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone is talking about the business side of this story but didn't anyone see the word PATENT there? Why is this even a patentable idea, isn't this a rather obvious and trivial application of being able to track a customer's location? Can you patent putting a sign in the window of a 7-11 telling people they should come in and get a Slurpee?

    Also do insurance industry firms really think they can transform themselves into a marketing company? It isn't exactly their forte. Might as well merge with Verizon.

    1. Re:slashdot I just don't know who you are anymore by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Because the idea is a dud?

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  29. comprehensive by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2

    Coverage for non-collision damage ("comprehensive" on your policy) is the cheapest part.(like ~2% of the premium)

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
  30. Stated like someone living in parents basement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Insurance, by design, is a sham and a scam."

    Insurance replaces risk, i.e., the uncertainty of the magnitude of finanical loss, with certainty, i.e., predicatable periodic premiums. Anyone who has taken on the big responsibilities of life (i.e., rearing a family, buying house to provide a home for said family, etc.) and is not independently wealthy enough to pay cash for everything up front (i.e., paying for house in full, right now, setting aside enough money to feed, clothe, and otherwise care for your dependents for as long as they are going to need) needs insurance to protect against the fact that you don't know when you are going to die and therefore be unable to follow-through on your obligations by earning money to pay for it all over time.

  31. "Trying to figure out how to survive" ??? by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 1

    By leveraging our broken patent system???

    --
    Greed is the root of all evil.
  32. Much is unclear by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Self driving cars also still need insurance; just not as much.

    That is currently an unproven assumption. Possibly correct but also possibly quite wrong. It presumes that self driving cars will actually be safer than human driven cars which has yet to be established conclusively. It seems reasonable and probable but that isn't the same thing as evidence. If they do prove to be safer in real world usage then you are almost certainly right.

    And a large portion of the insurance burden will fall to manufacturers instead of just on drivers.

    The incidence of payment will still ultimately fall to the car owner. The manufacturers will pass on substantially all of the cost of the insurance in the purchase price of the car. Their margins are too thin to do otherwise for any length of time. Even the most profitable car companies (Toyota, Porsche) only make around 10% net margins and most make less.

    Insurance companies will not be able to make the same kind of profit overall on large multinational car companies that they can on the public.

    Whether or not that is true will depend on how the insurance products are ultimately structured. If they have to deal with just a few large car companies then you are probably mostly correct. But that isn't a certainty as much will depend on the legal framework that is developed around self driving cars.

    1. Re:Much is unclear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is currently an unproven assumption. Possibly correct but also possibly quite wrong. It presumes that self driving cars will actually be safer than human driven cars which has yet to be established conclusively. It seems reasonable and probable but that isn't the same thing as evidence.

      Actually, real world experience is already showing that driverless cars are far, far safer than humans. Google the accident rate for google cars to see for yourself.

    2. Re:Much is unclear by ranton · · Score: 1

      Self driving cars also still need insurance; just not as much.

      That is currently an unproven assumption. Possibly correct but also possibly quite wrong. It presumes that self driving cars will actually be safer than human driven cars which has yet to be established conclusively. It seems reasonable and probable but that isn't the same thing as evidence. If they do prove to be safer in real world usage then you are almost certainly right.

      I only stated that assumption as a given since it is the scenario car insurance companies need to be preparing for. Most likely we will not have self-driving cars until they are significantly safer than humans. So if self driving cars become a reality, it is very reasonable to assume they will be safer than human drivers today. If that never happens, this conversation is moot since there is no upheaval to worry about.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
  33. Wow, getting WAY WAY WAY ahead of ourselves here by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

    Truly driverless cars are at least a decade away, if they ever materialize at all (personally, I'm skeptical).

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  34. Pipe Dream by sycodon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The idea that "self driving cars" will

    A. occur anytime soon or
    B. drive down car ownership,

    is a pipe dream.

    Billions have been poured into flight control systems and they all still require someone to sit behind the yoke and monitor them. While they do have an extra dimension, they also don't have to deal with as many variables, crappy roads, detours, crappy drivers to avoid, nonsensical roads, etc.

    Before driverless cars are ubiquitous, nothing less than a complete overhaul of the roads to simplify routes, clearly mark boundaries, simplify interchanges, and reduce to a minimum possible conflicts, will be necessary. Billions and billions of infrastructure overhaul.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Pipe Dream by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      This is precisely why we should be working on developing and building SkyTran. It's much cheaper to build per-mile than regular roads or highways (since it's mostly made in a factory and just assembled on-site), it avoids many problems with cars (snow-covered roads, time-wasting intersections, pedestrians) because it uses suspended rails which can be built in 3D space instead of 2D, it can operate much faster than cars (75-100mph in the city, with no intersections, 150mph in less-dense areas), and does it all with a fraction of the energy usage of cars (maglev rails instead of high-friction rubber tires on asphalt, and small, lightweight pod cars instead of 3-5000lb chunks of steel).

    2. Re:Pipe Dream by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Billions have been poured into flight control systems and they all still require someone to sit behind the yoke and monitor them.

      Two things:

      1. The pilots barely need to do this.
      2. The pilots are still in place due to the standards of safety being set so high.
      3. Billions have been poured into control systems. Much of what we have learnt is applicable in other fields including cars.

      If you set the bar at the same height as flights for safety then you're right, we'll never have self driving cars. If you accept to have only a reduction in fatalities rather than an attempt to eliminate them then we're pretty much 90% of the way there already with the current research being done.

    3. Re:Pipe Dream by Shoten · · Score: 2

      The idea that "self driving cars" will

      A. occur anytime soon or
      B. drive down car ownership,

      is a pipe dream.

      Billions have been poured into flight control systems and they all still require someone to sit behind the yoke and monitor them. While they do have an extra dimension, they also don't have to deal with as many variables, crappy roads, detours, crappy drivers to avoid, nonsensical roads, etc.

      Before driverless cars are ubiquitous, nothing less than a complete overhaul of the roads to simplify routes, clearly mark boundaries, simplify interchanges, and reduce to a minimum possible conflicts, will be necessary. Billions and billions of infrastructure overhaul.

      Comparing commercial passenger airline operations to driving cars is ridiculous. Airplanes are treated very, very differently from cars in a great number of ways..let's look at a few.

      Okay, so let's start off with the regulations on maintenance of airliners. Logbooks are kept, specific forms of maintenance are required, people working on the planes MUST have specific training and credentials...and those are just the basics. Any material change to the aircraft, including updates to software or even flight mapping data, require re-testing. And failing to comply with any of these standards is actually considered a violation of law. Imagine if you'd get fined for being late for an oil change in your car, or for not getting the car re-certified when you got new tires?

      Now, on for the more relevant point...training of the pilots. These are people who work their way up to being able to fly large jets, including a substantial amount of time in simulators...very expensive, elaborate simulators...before they even get to put their hands on the yoke of a real passenger jet. Compare and contrast this to student drivers with less than 30 hours of classroom time before they are driving regular cars on regular roads as the next step in their training, after which they are able to get a full-privilege license and drive just like anyone else.

      Consider the accident rate of driving...32,675 deaths in 2015 in the United States (according to the Administrator of the NHTSA when he spoke last week at the Vehicle Cybersecurity Roundtable), of which "94%" (his number as well) were the result of "human error or human choice." Even if a car held as many passengers as a 737, that number of accidents (which actually represents fantastic progress, given that it's the lowest number of car-related deaths per 100,000 people since 1920) would cause people to go batshit insane if it happened in our airline industry. But in cars, it's just considered normal.

      People...both the public and those in government...are WAY more tolerant of risk in cars than with regard to airlines. The head of the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration himself stood up last week in front of an audience of hundreds and espoused the expected life-saving benefits of self-driving technology. It won't be perfect, it'll need to improve, it will evolve over time...but those who would be in charge of promoting or limiting the technology have spoken and stated clearly that they are fully on the "promoting" side.

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    4. Re:Pipe Dream by avandesande · · Score: 1

      You missed too that there is no simple 'failure mode' for airplanes. If the auto gets confused it just needs to pull to the side of the road and put emergency blinkers on. With planes, not so much.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    5. Re:Pipe Dream by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Officially? Probably. Unofficially? Already happening. Go look at YouTube for people taping shit to the wheel and whatnot to turn it into an autonomous vehicle. Google said that as well, on the very first test where they let non-project Google employee "drive" the cars you had a guy rummaging through a bag in the back seat to find a cell phone charger while speeding down the highway. Those systems are going to get better, people are going to get sloppier. Your navigation "assistant" that picks the right lanes and makes the right exits. Your speed limit "assistant" when the adaptive cruise control don't have anyone to follow. Your traffic sign "assistant" to make sure you don't run any yield or stop signs. Your pedestrian detection "assistant" to make sure crossings are clear. The list will go on.

      Of course I'm pretty much waiting for the first vehicular suicide or manslaughter charge because the autopilot totally misread the situation and the driver wasn't paying attention, but I don't think it's going to really stop anything. Maybe for a day or a week everybody pays attention but then it's back to not really paying attention. I mean my commute is already boring as hell, if the car actually drove it too my brain would wander off to preserve my sanity. Because apart from the difficulty of computer vision most days my commute is pretty much steps like this:

      1. exit garage
      2. turn right, speed 30 km/h
      3. while (pedestrian in crossing) {
              wait();
      }
      4. turn left
      5. while (red light) {
              wait();
      }
      6. turn right, new speed 50 km/h
      7. while (car from right) {
              wait();
      }
      (...more of same)
      50. turn left onto parking lot, find parking spot, stop

      Really if they can just get a proper model of the real world in the computer, you could almost replace me with a small shell script. And I totally wouldn't mind.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    6. Re:Pipe Dream by sycodon · · Score: 0

      It's a matter of Control.

      I'd take an X% chance of being in an accident when I drive than an X%-Y chance when the car drives. Because I am in control and can subtract my own Y by making appropriate decisions.

      If you want me to get into a car and let it drive itself, it would have to have accident rates comparable to airline accident rates.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    7. Re:Pipe Dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OTOH people are notoriously bad at estimating their own driving skill. For self-driving cars, after they've been on the road for a while, you can likely get a pretty accurate statistical history of how safely the car can drive, and it'll be nearly the same for every car of the same model (barring mechanical failure) and environment (weather, road conditions, proportion of human vs non-human drivers, etc).

      Humans have a lot more variation. How do you really know if you could react in an emergency situation better than a computer, especially if you rarely have to handle such situations?

      We don't need accident rates comparable to airlines to make self-driving cars an improvement; they just need to be better than most drivers. Right now, we don't have enough data to say what Y% is, so it's fair enough to be cautious, but eventually that will change.

    8. Re:Pipe Dream by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      I hate to say it, as it'll come across as more antagonistic than I want it to, but the reverse holds true: if you want me (or rather us) to let you drive a car on the same roads I'm on after we've reached a certain threshold of availability of reliable, safe, self-driving cars, then you're going to have to prove you have accident rates comparable to airline accident rates.

      The choice, ultimately, will (and rightly will) be taken out of your hands ultimately if the technology becomes good enough. I can see people being bothered by that, but it should be a good thing. It's certainly better than the mandated forced driving (zoning et al used to make walking and transit impractical) we see today.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    9. Re: Pipe Dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pilots can SLEEP on the plane unless taking off, landing, or it starts beeping. That said, the plane isn't gonna recover from an unexpected disaster situation. Neither is a driverless car. The point is to avoid a situation like this in the first place, and that day is getting closer.

      None of this changes the fact that I'll always want control of my vehicles, especially when towing a trailer.

    10. Re:Pipe Dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically the failure mode for an airplane is rather simple it is called "splat"

    11. Re:Pipe Dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The other 10 % being the part where it actually works. The comparison to flight is absurd. Flight control deals with entirely different factors. than congested traffic with pedestrians. The part where flight control even comes close to dealing with conditions like driving is upon landing. For this expensive single role planes have a beacon used to direct the plane onto the runway along with a very expensive system of air traffic control on the ground. All this for a number of planes that is truly miniscule compared to the number of cars on the road. Completely different. This is all just buzz surrounding systems that are only tested in very carefully controlled situations. There is nothing to suggest that driverless cars are ready for actual introduction other than the presumptuous claims of billionaires hoping to outdo one another. When you look for actual performance it becomes very clear that this is hugely expensive hardware that fails when challenged with real world conditions even when the vehicle is perfectly maintained. It isn't even ready for impractical application due to problems with adapting to challenging conditions even with all the oversight and babying. Release into the wild is simply not an option at this point and the problems are fundamental. Insurance companies aren't really trying to survive. They are using pretense to develop additional revenue. The intrusive insurance schemes will happen but the driverless cars that will justify the schemes will not materialize.

    12. Re:Pipe Dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Billions have been poured into flight control systems and they all still require someone to sit behind the yoke and monitor them. While they do have an extra dimension, they also don't have to deal with as many variables, crappy roads, detours, crappy drivers to avoid, nonsensical roads, etc.

      You do realise that the only reason why we still have pilots is for image. Planes have been able to automatically takeoff, cruise and land themselves for many years. Most aircraft crashes are due to pilot error (often overriding the autopilot in the process). Despite aircraft travel being significantly safer (statistically) then automobile travel, people still view flying as being dangerous and having the pilot in the cockpit is reassuring to them...

    13. Re:Pipe Dream by Greyfox · · Score: 1

      Airplanes aren't as bad as you think. I'm not sure about commercial jets, but prop planes don't really care if one or both engines are out, as long as the plane has the air speed it needs for maneuvers. I've had a couple of one-engine-out landings on twin-engine skydiving planes. We weren't able to complete our climb to altitude, but we were able to go around and land on the runway just fine. It's a little dicier on a single engine plane, but losing an engine very rarely kills the pilot and pretty frequently doesn't even break the plane. (Admittedly the guy flying the plane in that video is one of the most exceptional pilots aviation has ever seen.)

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    14. Re:Pipe Dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are way more tolerant, because they are driving. The amount of air crashes and death/serious injury for various for personal air vehicles (various form of gliders and very small cesna-like planes) is huge, but again it's the pilot that die. Sometimes passengers, but they are acquaintance of the pilot, like for personal cars.

      A good comparison would be amount of death in bus accidents v.s. commercial planes.

      One thing is absolutely 100% sure: people will be far far less tolerant of car accidents once cars are self driving. If the amount of accidents is not reduced by more than an order of magnitude, I see no future for self driving car (or trucks/taxi/buses, which should happen much before personal cars because of the economy of not having to pay a driver)

    15. Re:Pipe Dream by toddestan · · Score: 1

      If it's sufficiently confused, how will the car find the side of the road? Most likely the car will just tell the driver "you're in charge now", so I hope you're paying attention because you may only have a second or two (if that) to react. I can't imagine how well that would go with most drivers nowadays. Now imagine a generation of drivers who have very little (or no) experience actually driving their cars manually?

      Handing over control like that is pretty much what a lot of auto pilots do right now. However, a jet cruising at altitude can go quite a while before hitting something (that includes the ground). The pilot generally has minutes to react to any situation.

  35. It will impact the stock martket too by plopez · · Score: 1

    Insurance companies are cash rich. SO they invest much of it into the markets. If they start struggling for cash the impact may ripple through the entire economy.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    1. Re:It will impact the stock martket too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, nice fear mongering you've got going there...

  36. How to survive? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

    Why would insurance companies need to be figuring out how to survive? True, there may be less vehicles in the future, but they will still be insured. Yes, the vehicles may be safer and have fewer accidents, but they will still be insured. Insurance companies profit from managing the risk. Yes, they will have lower gross revenue, but they will also have lower expenses. The net effect should be unchanged.

    That is, of course, assuming that insurance companies aren't charging inflated rates in the current climate.

    1. Re:How to survive? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      If I have a self driving car that can't get in an accident, why do I need insurance? If it gets in an accident it isn't my fault.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:How to survive? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      If I have a self driving car that can't get in an accident, why do I need insurance? If it gets in an accident it isn't my fault.

      Because unless you simply store it in your garage, it is impossible to have a self driving car that can't get into an accident. The likelihood of an accident is greatly reduced, but it isn't eliminated.

    3. Re:How to survive? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      What is the point of paying a premium for a self driving car if there is still a possibility of it getting in an accident? Isn't that kind of the whole point of self driving cars?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    4. Re:How to survive? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      What is the point of paying a premium for a self driving car if there is still a possibility of it getting in an accident? Isn't that kind of the whole point of self driving cars?

      No. The point of self driving cars is to be safer than driving is today. They don't promise accident free.

    5. Re:How to survive? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Then I still shouldn't be liable... That's like marketing a toaster that might short out and electrocute people.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    6. Re:How to survive? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      If you mean someone else might hit my automated vehicle, yes of course that might be the case, but where I am from insurance is a requirement and the vehicle of the driver at fault will pay for it. If you're saying the automated vehicle is like Russian roulette and it might find a situation it can't handle... And if it does find that situation you will be liable.. I'm not sure how they would ever sell that.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    7. Re:How to survive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many locales are no-fault meaning the owner of the vehicle is liable for the damage to their vehicle, regardless of who hit whom. That's not up to the insurance company but the state of residence (in the US).

  37. 70mph-to-35mph is banded by some states by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    70mph-to-35mph is banded by some states on interstates or the rules are set that the funds go to the state and not the local town.

    also some places need to move cops off the BS tickets roll and back to real police work. Also auto-drive cars will cut down on DUI's

  38. Insurance is necessary and useful by sjbe · · Score: 4, Informative

    Insurance, by design, is a sham and a scam.

    If you think that then you would be wrong. Oh sure, there are insurance scams out there. But that is not the same things as insurance being a scam. Insurance is about mitigation of risk. Reducing the financial consequences of rare or severe events. Insurance is a very useful tool but if you don't use it properly then like most tools it might do more harm than good. People who are financially sophisticated typically have quite a lot of insurance and for good reason.

    So by design, premiums MUST exceed payouts.

    Not actually true. Premiums + Investment profits must exceed payouts over the long term. There are two parts to every insurance business. The premium payments you send in and then on the back end the insurance company invests those premiums. People don't typically see the investment side of the business but it's very important. Lots of insurance companies actually sell insurance at an underwriting loss but make a profit by investing the money. This isn't ideal from the insurance company's perspective but due to a competitive market it is sometimes necessary. There are more than a few insurance companies that have taken underwriting losses for many years in a row.

    All insurance companies will take losses periodically but so long as they have sufficient reserves this is expected and acceptable. For risks where they lack adequate reserves insurance companies can get re-insurance (basically insurance for the insurance) for those events.

    In reality, the only thing insurance protects you from that you couldn't do on your own are the extreme situations.

    Insurance is for extreme events but it also can be to mitigate damage for events that you can afford to deal with. For example I have dental insurance. I am perfectly capable of paying out of pocket for any dental procedure I am ever likely to have but my dental insurance helps me mitigate the cost so pay a little up front to come out ahead in the long run. It ensures that the insurance company works when negotiating rates with the dentist so I get better rates than I could negotiate on my own.

    1. Re:Insurance is necessary and useful by coolmoose25 · · Score: 2

      A well reasoned post, however, reinsurance is not as much "insurance for the insurance" but really looks more like financing so as to maintain working capital to grow your insurance business. By sloughing off your insured limits to another party, it frees you up to write even more insurance. The cost of doing that is akin to interest on a loan.

      --
      Brawndo: It's what plants crave!
    2. Re:Insurance is necessary and useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lots of insurance companies actually sell insurance at an underwriting loss but make a profit by investing the money.

      Sounds like gambling. When the "investments" go tits up because they put it all in high risk for maximum return and they underwrote in the first place is why you see a lot of these insurance corps not paying out. Its basically legal racketeering.

    3. Re:Insurance is necessary and useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like gambling.

      Only to people who don't understand the simple concepts of investing and risk management.

    4. Re:Insurance is necessary and useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Insurance, by design, is a sham and a scam.

      If you think that then you would be wrong. Oh sure, there are insurance scams out there.

      Insurance is largely a scam. They have made paying them premiums required by law in almost every state and they use every cheap shot in the book to try and weasel out of paying a claim. There is a reason that insurance companies are some of the biggest and most profitable companies in the world, and it is not because they are honest.

  39. Prediction: the owner will still pay "insurance" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shifting liability onto makers won't work. Accidents will still happen due to failures, tyre blowouts etc. If the maker is liable, they will still have to pass on those costs to the customer. The only practical way of doing so is by building in a lifetime's worth of insurance premiums into the up-front cost. That's a massive disincentive to buy driverless cars.
    So what I think will happen is that the laws will be written so that the owner of the vehicle will be required to pay the insurance costs. They will hopefully be lower, because unless autonomous cars are safer then what's the point, and they would presumably just be based on accident rates for the particular model you own, but they will still need to be paid.

  40. Re:^ and that a good thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A smart guy without a dumb phone.

  41. Dear Auto Insurance Companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We fully plan to bend you over and fuck you in the ass exactly the way you did us.
    I will have no use for you what so ever.
    Find a new fucking job now before it is to late.

  42. This needs to be regulated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most state require drivers to carry insurance. We need to change the state insurance regulations to require companies to offer a plain insurance product without any personal privacy compromises.

  43. It won't take driverless cars by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

    Already the roadways are getting safer. We have adaptive cruise control, lane departure systems and, most importantly, things like airbags that minimize human damage in the case of an accident. Sheet metal is cheap compared to organs. In the US (and I think most of the world), cars only have to meet the safety requirements in place at time of manufacture. There are still cars from the 1980s and 1990s on the road (mostly Corollas and Camrys that were great cars at the time) with no air bags or only two front air bags. As those eventually age out of the fleet, injury costs will keep dropping.

  44. Really? by LQ · · Score: 1

    Does anyone but the most optimistic of geeks really believe that autonomous road vehicles will make much of an impact on private transport in the next 50 years? Come back when it can fly and dodge the kids on hoverboards.

    1. Re:Really? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I look at the pictures of the snow storm in DC and I find it almost humorous that so many people think that driverless cars will be possible in that. I guess I'll believe it when I see it. What I am worried about is that the parts of the world with snow will simply be left behind. Driverless cars will never work in that and no one will care.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  45. F'ing State Farm. by oneiros27 · · Score: 1

    Insurance companies make money by trying to screw you as much as possible when it comes time for them to pay out.

    Someone w/ State Farm hit the house that I was fixing up 3 years ago. I had his insurance info from the police report -- so I called State Farm. They told me to get two quotes ...

    Of course, I was preparing for a trip ... and when I came back, it was Christmas. I don't know how many contractors I called, but some wouldn't work in my area (PG County, MD is known for having some problems w/ permitting). Others wouldn't deal with asbestos (the house had asbestos shingles ... which were now damaged).

    During all of this, State Farm's only response to me was to send me a letter 4 months later. (they claimed they also sent me something 2 months later, but I never saw it). Of course, by then, I'm trying to train the new employee at work.

    Then I get in trouble for getting pissed off at my new employee when they kept asking me how the construction was going, even though I kept repeating 'I don't want to talk about it'. Which made it up to company management on the same day as the Navy Yard shooting. So then I had to deal with all of that crap.

    Over the next couple of years, I get at least three contractors to come out ... yet no one wants to bid on the work.

    I called State Farm, and told them they needed to find me a contractor ... but was told they didn't do that. They *finally* sent out an adjustor (only a couple of months from hitting 3 years). I call, but the person I'm dealing w/ won't return my calls and I have to keep sending me to other people in his group (who of course, don't have access to all of the info, and can't help me). And of course, I'm dealing with someone from auto insurance, even though it's house damage.

    The process drags on, as they had simply mailed me the offer, rather than call me back ... which was incomplete, as it has a note that the hazardous waste removal needed to be bid out. I explained that there was no way in hell I'd accept their offer for ~$8k as it did me no good to have money if I can't get someone to actually fix the property ... and it was a joke. (they said only 60 sq.ft needed to be repaired on the side that got hit, and it could be replaced w/ concrete siding ... even though there was cracked asbestos siding all through that wall)

    I had to lawyer up ... and he found me a contractor ... and suggested we take their bid to State Farm. Luckily, I said no way in hell, as I didn't trust it. (it was $12k, but I had estimated that based on State Farm's breakdown, it should've been $15k).

    So I'm paying out of pocket to have the contractor do the work ... once he finally got some free time in his schedule, weeks later. And we found he had missed almost $3k in work, as he forgot about the concrete work. Of course, he started just this Thursday ... so now work's halted as everything's buried in 3+ feet of snow (would've been 2, but the plows came and packed it all in) ... and I've been told by my lawyer that I can't claim costs of therapy (as I wasn't at the place when the accident happened), the time off work to deal w/ all of this, or the delays (over $6k in property taxes alone, plus whatever rental profits had been lost).

    And when I hang a sign that stays 'FUCK STATE FARM' on the property, I have to deal w/ the president of the town calling me up to bitch, and I have to explain that if he takes it down, it's a first amendment violation. (mind you, the house is across the street from the town hall ... and the driveway to the school board, so I got a few complaints).

    So as I see it ... I can only hope that insurance companies like State Farm get screwed by the changes, as they're assholes.

    (USAA, on the other hand has been nothing but good to me ... unfortunately, they won't insure a rental property unless it's occupied)

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
    1. Re:F'ing State Farm. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      All insurance companies are the same. They all do whatever they can to avoid paying out.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  46. Insurance by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    If I have a driverless car that is supposed to be 100% infallible, there should be no reason for me to have insurance at all. If someone hits me with a vehicle that is manual, then their insurance covers my damages, and I can't get in an accident so why would I have insurance?

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't get in an accident so why would I have insurance?

      What about when a criminal breaks in? What about if a tree falls on it? What about when the area where it's parked floods?

      You should get a clue about what insurance covers.

  47. Re:Wow, getting WAY WAY WAY ahead of ourselves her by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    I think the companies pouring billions into this are going to be solely disappointed. It's reminding me of the 1970's when they thought they were a few years away from human like AI.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  48. The first child killed = first billion $ lawsuit by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    The net earnings of a toddler of American parents will be in the tens of millions of dollars.

    The first child killed by a driverless car will lead to an immediate lawsuit by the parents.

    Parents of children killed by "accident" never give up. Ever.

    And almost any jury will back the parents.

    No matter what "protections" the driverless car industry "creates" to avoid responsibility for murdering a child.

    No matter that killing the child saved twenty people from dying.

    That is how it works.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  49. bit of a hole with that idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you wreck my car and have no insurance, you might not have to pay me anything. The government should instead require repayment, even if you don't have the means right now, on a schedule. If you can't be compliant, then some of your income should be withheld until the debt is paid.

    And if the person deemed at fault is also hurt in the accident, to such an extent that they can't hold a job themselves? What then?

  50. Comics are under threat too. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

    The late night comics are also going to be affected by the driverless cars. As the accidents drop and insurance needs plummet, the auto insurance companies witll out do each other in creating great funny creative commercials. They will suck in all the creative talent. What the late night comics offer will pale in comparison.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  51. circle of life and reinventing the wheel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just like all living things, some industries must die in order to encourage new life in others.

    Insurance is one of those that should die, quite possibly go through a transformation.. from the sounds of it, the Insurance companies are going to become App or Cellphone makers:

    "For example, a recent patent application shows State Farm is betting on collecting massive amounts of data about you."

    "Traveler's Insurance is thinking along somewhat similar lines. They want to create "a device that offers specific suggestions for managing errands and other travel. Customers would be able to see a map of 'risk zone' data for places they want to go, such as stores, restaurants and roads. They could then plan the day 'with an eye toward how risky such endeavors may be,' according to the patent application.""

    sounds like a cellphone to me.. so what benifit would i gather to carrying another device around with me? also that would require me to explicitly give up that data, which then could be requested via NSL and i would never know..

    its like those OBD2 plugs that are supposed to get you cheaper rates... except they tell the insurance everything about where you are going and how you drive. they say its to help them lower your rates, but it can also raise your rates, and if the cops find out that you have one, im pretty sure they can find a way to coerce the insurance company to give up that data. this is also one of the many reasons i have stayed away from gm, or any auto manufacturer that offers an On Star type service.

    and yes i will build my next vehicle if i need to. 1.5" 120 wall chromoly saftey cell with an electric motor, a big bank of batteries and maybe some sporty styling.. so watch out :) i dont have to pass any crash ratings!

  52. Translation by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1

    Translation: State Farm plans to spam the fuck out of you, chasing every step you take with coupons and offers and helpful hints and discount offers on vitamins and shoes.

    You: walk to your mailbox to get the mail
    State Farm: Hey Billy, looks like you're going out today. Did you know we can offer you a discount on home owner's insurance for multiple car households, and did you fully understand and appreciate the paragraph in your policy that cancels coverage for anything we don't feel like paying, and hey here is a coupon for a hamburger and fries!
    State Farm: Dear Mr. Billy, careful analysis of your risk profile has revealed areas of concern which will cause us to raise your premium at the next renewal. Specifically, your consumption of a hamburger and fries puts you into a higher risk pool. And your desire to save money on insurance by pursuing multi-policy discounts indicate that you have or are seeking to have extra insurance policies which is a risk factor for loss and fraud. For these reasons your rates are doubling. You can appeal but we don't care. Suck it brother!
    State Farm: Hey Billy, have you heard about our multi-policy discounts? Online Agent Ashley, who is totally not the Ashley Comcast uses, is ready to talk to you NOW!

    --
    Sig for hire.
  53. Only way I can see insurance companies surviving.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    . . . is by moving into an extended-warranty kind of business model. Eventually we will get to the point that the only accidents that occur are due to hardware failures on vehicles, from tire blow-outs and highway breakdowns and the like. Insurance companies will likely mandate six month or annual inspections, and will adopt a kind of car-health-insurance model, because the only benefit consumers would get from this insurance is by having their repairs paid for.

    An interesting side effect of that will be that the insurance companies will do hardcore stat crunching to determine the most reliable vehicles in the long-term, which will cause some interesting dynamics in auto sales.

  54. There will always be a need for drivers by reboot246 · · Score: 1

    Just think of the thousands of commercial vehicles out there - plumbers, electricians, lawn care specialists, etc.. There's no way a driverless pickup truck could do my job. We're not renting a plain truck. There's thousands of dollars worth of stuff attached to my truck!

    Would driverless police cars work? Garbage trucks? School buses? Would you want a driverless ambulance to take you to the hospital?

    Maybe for you commuters and vacationers it could work. Driving the same route day in and day out could be handled by a driverless auto, but take a look at the real world sometime. It may just open your eyes.

  55. Settled law? Not yet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So somehow we've already had legislatures decide, and set law & policy around autonomous cars? That's what will determine where & how insurance is required. No doubt if fewer folks buy and drive cars the insurance companies need new lines of business, but to say that the liability is going to be on the manufacturer, I don't believe that ship has sailed quite yet.

  56. moot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone consider that self-driving cars might incur a wholesale rejection? I have no plans to ever buy one, ever. I already reject the ones that can park themselves.

  57. I hope they choke. by MrKrillls · · Score: 1

    The underlying theory behind insurance is to spread risk as broadly as possible to reduce the cost of being protected. Insurance companies discovered that they can select small low risk slices of the market and treat them preferentially. The result is a myriad of little groups all of whom pay too much, since small groups cannot effectively spread risk very far.

    The insurance companies have ruined the great benefit of insurance for the insureds, and have substituted great benefit for themselves.

    --
    Don't step on the baby.
  58. I call BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This sounds a lot like FUD from the insurance companies, they are not going out of business any time soon. If driver-less cars have less accidents then insurance company profits will skyrocket. Auto insurance is not an optional expense, most states REQUIRE insurance in order to register your vehicle. These laws are not going to go away just because the accident rate goes down, especially since it is legal to bribe politicians now (FYI insurance companies are mega rich).

    Auto insurance is like Obamacare, you will need all the owners of those accident-free autonomous vehicles paying premiums in order to bolster the profits against the remaining human drivers that now have the bulk of the accidents. The article says that the drop in the number of accidents could reduce the rates we pay. I laugh at that, insurance companies will only reduce rates when they are required to by law (which will never happen, see above talking about political bribery).

    The article also mentions that State Farm is looking to "... analyze data about a customer’s vehicles, home and personal health, find patterns and offer “personalized recommendations, insurance discounts ..." and "Your health, including weight, blood pressure, sleeping patterns and fitness activities as reported by “wearable, implantable, ingestible, or hand-held personal health sensors." This sounds to me like a new scam to weasel out of paying benefits rather than any service to the consumer. "I'm sorry Mr Jones, but our body sensors inform us you are not getting enough sleep according to the government sleep standards committee (which we sit on the board of) so the accident must have been your fault and we therefore must deny payment of your claim."

  59. Sell me parking spot insurance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, if there was a way to lock in a rate for an NYC parking spot I'd buy in.

  60. Step Toward The Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Let them die" - James Kirk '91

  61. In theory by sabbede · · Score: 1

    they should be fine. People will still own cars, and they'll still be so expensive that you'll need to insure them against loss. The risk involved will drop sharply, as will premiums, but the companies should remain profitable as payouts will likewise fall.

  62. Re:Prediction: the owner will still pay "insurance by sabbede · · Score: 1

    I don't think legal changes will be necessary. The owner of the car will still need to insure it, but against loss if not so much against liability.