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Hollywood Turning Against Digital Effects (newyorker.com)

An anonymous reader writes: One of the easiest complaints to lob at a modern film is that the special effects look bad. It's been over two decades since Jurassic Park; the novelty is finally wearing off. The New Yorker puts it this way: "It's as if directors—especially the reboot generation—have finally become self-conscious about CGI; 2015 was the year they got embarrassed by the digital miracles of the movies." Both the new Star Wars film and Mad Max: Fury Road were lauded for their use of "practical effects" — not abandoning CGI entirely, but using it to embellish scenes, rather than creating them from whole cloth. "Movies are a faddish, self-quoting business. At one time, the stark lighting effects of the German Expressionists were the visual rage. Later, it was the helicopter shot or the zoom. Any new tool, once used promiscuously, becomes a cliché. As time goes by, a director rediscovers the tool, and what was once cliché becomes an homage to a distant and more cultured time. This is what has happened to the last, pre-digital wave of effects. They are now happily vintage." It also counts as marketing, when you consider that audiences are turned off by too much CGI: "Touting your movie's wood, concrete, and steel is an implicit promise of restraint. I didn't go totally wild, the filmmaker is telling the audience, not like Peter Jackson did in the Hobbit trilogy."

232 comments

  1. News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Artists turn away from aesthetically unappealing techniques. News at 11.

    1. Re:News at 11 by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Aesthetics isn't simple as some technique being appealing or unappealing. The appeal of a technique depends on context. Chiaroscuro was the bee's knees in Baroque painting but it wouldn't work in a Cubist painting. Both kinds of painting have aesthetic appeal, but techniques that work in one don't necessarily work in the other.

      Part of the aesthetic context is the audience and it's familiarity with the techniques being used. When perspective drawing came in painters vied to do the most elaborate depictions of converging lines; later perspective in itself wasn't as exciting to people. Perspective itself didn't necessarily go out of style, just ostentatiously poking the audience in the eyes with it.

      I recently watched the Greedo-shot-first cut of Star Wars Ep IV, complete with Lucas's new effects grafted into the old movie. I concluded hate for this version isn't just about rewriting childhood memories. The new effects, while sophisticated in execution, were clumsily fit into the overall movie. Their look didn't go with the rest of it. The original movie was 100% film; the new cut switches jarringly between hyper-HD digital shots and grainy analog film shots. Thirty years ago the technology of the digital scenes would have enchanted us, but now we're used to the technology. The constant switching back and forth between digital and analog is almost like someone had grafted new color scenes onto an old black and white movie. When you watch an old B&W movie you forget there's no color because you're drawn into the story. Adding new color scenes would repeatedly draw your attention away from the story to the specific technology used for each scene.

      The problem is the new technology per se, it's the artistically clumsy way it's been bolted onto this particularly movie.

      I think we're at the point where we're no longer impressed by a scene just because of the computational resources it must have taken to render, and this makes many elaborate digital effects seem cheesy. I'm not entirely sure why; it may be an uncanny valley type effect, that the digital shots are so close to perfection that their subtle difference from real shots is more noticeable. Or it may be that the purely digital process for these effects encourages artistic sloppiness in a way that the older, more labor intensive techniques don't.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:News at 11 by Hognoxious · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It smacks more of hipster-retroism to me.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:News at 11 by Jason+Levine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For me, the problem with the added original trilogy CGI effects were that they seemed to be added purposefully to draw our attention to them. Luke and company arrive as Mos Eisley. As they slow up, a big creature walks right in front of them - between them and the "camera" - obscuring our view of them. There is no reason story-wise for this obstruction. It's only there because Lucas decided he wanted us to say "Hey, look at that big creature. Lucas must be a genius for coming up with such a CGI creation." Instead, we wind up saying "Down in front! Get that thing out of our way so we can see the rest of the movie!!!"

      This is the case in the prequels as well. In Episode 2, R2D2 and C3PO approach the droid factory and C3PO nears the edge. He's clearly Anthony Daniels wearing the suit. R2 bumps him over the edge and he manages to grab hold of a flying droid who plucks him up and shakes him loose. Now, he's clearly a fully CGI creation. There's a discontinuity between the two that jars you out of the story. (Not like there's much story to get jarred out of but that just means that keeping the audience immersed is much more important.) The scene could have been written to keep Anthony Daniels or a physical "stunt-C3PO" in it, but Lucas was so enamored with CGI that he just figured he'd use it for entire scenes to replace what the actors couldn't do. It came off looking like the movie was part-video game and not like the characters were actually still in the scenes.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    4. Re:News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Artists turn away from aesthetically unappealing techniques. News at 11.

      Great so the fucking film directors rediscovered how to a make a real film instead of a videogame.
      Now let's not waste the lesson and be sure they rediscover how to make color movies as well.
      Enough with orange and teal everywhere.

    5. Re:News at 11 by Rei · · Score: 2

      I think that's an oversimplification. Yes, trends, and the audience getting used to and tired of them, are a quite real phenomenon. But let's not simultaneously pretend that the concept of "realism" in movies is a purely objective phenomenon. Sometimes an effect can be purely and objectively bad. Should we go back to, for example, the special effects of 1960s Star Trek, would that be an improvement?

      Let's pick an example of bad use of CG. The scene of Anakin feeding Padme a slice of pear wasn't per se bad because it's CGI, it's bad because they did a lousy job with it. And it's bad of the CG director to think that it was sufficient. And it's bad of the film director for getting so obsessed with using a single technology for special effects that they'd rather put in a badly done CG effect than go buy a freaking pear.

      The original trilogy had tons of lousy special effects that would have looked much better if done using modern techniques. Not all scenes, there were plenty of good special effects in the trilogy - but there were some that were patently just bad. Abjectly, transparently fake - all issues of trends aside. The fact that CGI is often misused today doesn't change this. Good special effects mean using the correct tool for the process and not getting obsessed with using only whatever happens to be the current trend. A good director is one who can tell that a miniature is going to look fake in scene X, a puppet is going to look fake in scene Y, and a CG pear is going to look fake in scene Z, and adjust appropriately.

      --
      What the hells goin on in the engine room? Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?
    6. Re: News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe digital isn't the answer to every problem in the world.

    7. Re:News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Abjectly, transparently fake - all issues of trends aside. The fact that CGI is often misused today doesn't change this.

      So much this.

      Compare prequel Yoda with a light saber to Legolas in The Two Towers.

      One was entirely CG, and looked horrible.

      One was merely camera tricks - Orlando Bloom dismounting a horse in a fanciful way, with the recorded footage then reversed - and looked just as horrible.

    8. Re:News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes the hipsters realize that there were a lot of good things in the past. I just went to see the circus this weekend. They did it all in real life--no special effects at all! Elephants too! (I had to go see it one more time before the PETA-crazies got rid of the elephants.)

    9. Re:News at 11 by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The software people who make those cutting edge packages still seem to have no clue about physics. You can't get away with animation-style non-physics in a photorealistic world with real physics. Arms don't swing right, cognizant, so to speak, of motor acceleration vs. their mass, with gravity tugging on everything.

      And body flesh/fat rippling, again, they need better programmers instead of animators. If you look at it, and it looks fake, create a better virtal model with mass and stretch parameters to mathematically undergird the surface mesh distortions. Which themselves should have a skinlike physics.

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    10. Re:News at 11 by hey! · · Score: 1

      I'm not advocating realism. German Expressionism made a virtue of limited set budgets by making films look like this. If you believe in compulsory realism such a fantastical mise-en-scène would be bad, but this weirdness is precisely what makes those movies cool.

      What I'm saying is that as audiences get more used to digital effects, filmmakers have to become more subtle and thoughtful in using them. "Bad" isn't a property of the effect itself, but how it fits into the story. The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus has precisely the incongruity I found jarring in the Greedo-shot-first cut of Ep IV, but uses it intentionally to tell the story. There's the analog film of Dr. Parnassus's stage, then cardboard cutout trees on the far side of the looking glass, beyond which lies the impossibly sharp digital world of Dr. Parnassus's imagination. The cutout trees are there to signal a transition from a real/analog world to a fantasy/digital one. Lucas just clumsily mixes the two media in distracting ways.

      --
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    11. Re:News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It smacks of not wanting films to look like fake CGI shit. There has never been anything done in CGI that looks realistic.

    12. Re:News at 11 by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Not that you know of. But then if it looks realistic you wouldn't know, would you?

      Assuming you actually know what the inside of, say, a nuclear detonation looks like.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re: News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wasn't jarred out of the story in Phantom Menace. I was JarJar-ed out. (Bu dump, tshhhhh.)

    14. Re:News at 11 by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      If you mean from Hollywood's point of view, perhaps. I know most people feel most CGI looks "off" for whatever reason, but judging from Episode 7, that wasn't the primary concern of Abrams.

      I didn't think Episode 7 looked particularly right, they continued with the kind of dark, tinted, unreal, higher contrast camera palette that's become standard lately, becoming standard presumably because making reality look worse is easier than making CGI look better. So even if there was less CGI, it still ended up looking off.

      I'd be curious to know what were the effects and what was old fashioned puppetry. It (usually, with obvious exceptions such as Snoke) felt better there. But I'm wondering to what extent I'm just getting used to ugly CGI.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    15. Re:News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, you can get the feel about these things.
      Fancy, big waves in some ocean-going-bigger-than-life-movie? Look at some, lets say "Deadliest Catch" from discovery channel for "reference". See how the real people are moving inside and outside of a ocean going vessel in higs seas? How the real waves are acting on the deck and the vessel? What will real people do when they are hit with a big wave on deck?

      Or some stupid car chase flick? Go and take your car, and try some of that shit. Feel comfy?

      Movies need more realism, and not the protagonist-in-white-uniform-crawls-out-of-a-mudhole-and-is-compleatly-clean, or car flips over during 100 km/h and everybody is afterwards dusting some little dust off their arm, or bandaging their little finger.

    16. Re:News at 11 by infolation · · Score: 2

      The OP should have picked up on this, but the effects being discussed are VISUAL effects, not SPECIAL effects.

      The industry terms are "visual effects" for digital (or old-school optical) effects carried out in post, and "special effects" for physical effects made in front of the camera.

      It might sound pedantic, but most people have no problem with special effects, ie REAL effects carried out in-camera. It's the digitally created effects (greenscreen comps, CG monsters and environments etc) that people see as fake.

      Disclaimer - I work in the visual effects industry (and certainly not in the special effects industry). We were the people waving the green cards at the last Oscars, as opposed to the people who blow real stuff up on set.

    17. Re:News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not entirely sure. I was old enough to see Jedi and there was something bad about the stop-motion special effects used for the Rancor, (the stop motion used for the X-wings was fantastic but you might not even realise it was stop motion) but it evoked the older effects of Ray Harryhausen and the kinds of films Star Wars itself was referencing. They made a virtue of a necessity.

      For me the key thing CGI doesn't get right is natural lighting. I'm not sure how best to describe how they get it wrong but the colors and the textures aren't right, there's too much distracting digital shine. A matte painting might seem flat but a clever mix of the two can work well. As others have said the selective use works well.

      Like a magician you don't notice the best use of special effects or you know it's fake but don't mind. Forrest Gump is a good example.
      I think it was the Tobey Maguire Spider-man where they said the trick was making the actor look scrawny, not making it look super (same goes for Captain America).

      Heck I watched Team America and thought it was great. You could argue that some films should have used even more CGI and forced you to suspend your disbelief earlier and give in to the story, but that requires a decent story.

    18. Re:News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The *only* CGI that might go undetected without close scrutiny are static objects like buildings and only if the lighting is done perfectly. CGI of anything that's moving, organic, fire, water or has any kind of physics acting upon it is immediately noticeable and looks like crap.

    19. Re:News at 11 by jandersen · · Score: 2

      I think what often goes wrong is that the story no longer persuades you to take part. A good story should invite you in, in some way, by making you identify with the characters, or by being plausible or otherwise. When the effects become the main act and the actual story is sidelined, or if the acting or the instruction is poorly executed, it no longer engages people. I haven't seen all the Star Wars - far from it - but I did see the latest. I enjoyed much of the scenery, but the story was a bit weak - the Evil Guys come up with a pretty hare-brained scheme and the Good Ones come up with an equally hare-brained plan? It just doesn't engage my mental capacities, modest as they are. But what annoyed me - which always annoys me - is the overuse of "shock and awe effects": the rumbling, thunderous sub-bass for everything to make it seem convincing, for example, and the inappropriate use of sounds (like the famous Lancaster bomber sound in space in one early episode, or the sound of running water under water - how would that work?). If a story is good enough to make a movie that costs hundreds of millions, it ought to be good enough to stand on its own merits.

      And that is the thing with Star Wars in many ways: the first ones persuaded you to take part; you really wanted the good ones to win and all that, and you were willing to forgive the sometimes strange disconnects, like when the Emperor had this incredible, magical power, but on the other hand, Darth Vader could just grab him and throw him down a shaft and he could do nothing about it. This latest one - I really didn't care who won, whether it was the supersized Gollum or the hapless good ones.

    20. Re:News at 11 by jinchoung · · Score: 1

      "It's only there because Lucas decided he wanted us to say "Hey, look at that big creature"

      actually, i believe it's being used as a wipe to combine to two different shots. clumsily. but still... it had a purpose.

    21. Re:News at 11 by Rei · · Score: 1

      I think the renderer plays into it to some extent. I've noticed a lot more feeling of realism in Blender for example after switching to Cycles, even on the same scene with textures created to be effectively identical, and I think part of it stems from an inherent imperfection of Cycles: ISO noise. Most renderers are raytracers, while Cycles is a path tracer, so it has a sort of stochastic, physically-based approach to rendering, where each ray is allowed to scatter randomly as it would in the real world rather than trying to calculate the "perfect" value for each point (aka "light A is 5 meters from me and hitting at this angle so it contributes this much, light B is 10 meters away...", like everyone learns in a typical "Introduction to 3d Rendering" course). The net result is that - in addition to inherently at no extra cost providing things that have to be added in or faked in other raytracers like soft shadows, motion blur, depth of field, indirect lighting, internal scattering, etc - all images render quickly but with very high ISO, and each progressive pass reduces the ISO. It's as if the image was taken by a camera in a really dark room (with the resulting image brightened and contrast stretched), and each successive pass was taken in a slightly brighter room.

      When it comes to most old-fashioned techniques, "perfection is realism". When it comes to raytracing, "imperfection is realism". ISO noise is a good thing.

      --
      What the hells goin on in the engine room? Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?
    22. Re:News at 11 by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I happened to watch the Wolverine that had been leaked from a time prior to all the effects being added. One of the things that was so striking was how much green-screen-scene they'd used. There was so little there, so little for an actor to wrap themselves in and act about, that it actually seems to (and I might be biased, I guess) show. It's as if there's so few real things, in some of these movies, that the actors are giving lower quality productions and I think that might be because they have so few things to interact with.

      It's an actor, in a wiring harness, with a few blue things stuck to their body, in front of a green-screen, and swinging about a pink plastic stick. There's no way the actor's able to immerse themselves into that scene. Thus, you not only get effects that are "too good" you get acting that is too mechanical. Again, I might be biased, but I think the quality of acting has gone down dramatically and that one of the reasons for this might actually be the increased effects meaning that it's more difficult to get immersed and thus the acting is dry, mechanical, and distant.

      It's hard to blame the actors for this one. I don't, for a minute, believe the actual skill level has gone down by default. I just expect that the results have decreased in quality and probably for a variety of reasons but that's one reason that I think the resulting quality has gone downhill. I have every reason to believe that the skill levels will have naturally increased with time as things do with other human pursuits. I don't get to the theater enough, live theater, to confirm this but I'd not be surprised to find it true that the skills have increased - as we gain in knowledge, we gain in technique, and we gain in practice, collectively, so to do we gain as individuals.

      I'm sure there are a whole host of other reasons, such as needing to refine our skills with the vast new amounts of technology that are coming online and things of that nature. But, I really think that we've lost a bit in translation now that we've got our acting being done in front of green-screens and with funny colored props that resemble nothing like they'll look post-production.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    23. Re:News at 11 by lucien86 · · Score: 1

      Their still really years or decades away from being able to do a lot of that. Not being able to do the physics properly is one of the main reasons that VR isn't yet ready for prime time either.. In computer animation all objects are massless -worse mostly they can just pass through each other. 3D collision and true solid modelling are super processor and memory intensive..

      --
      Below the speed of light Special Relativity is one of the most accurate theories in physics - above the speed of light..
    24. Re:News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you've probably seen a lot of CGI that doesn't look like crap-- you just didn't realize it was CGI.

    25. Re:News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, background static objects like buildings that I didn't really pay much attention to.

  2. Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Digital effects aren't bad.

    Half-assed digital effects are bad

    1. Re:Well... by Frigga's+Ring · · Score: 5, Informative

      Agreed. I encourage folks to check out Rocket Jump's video Why CG Sucks (Except it Doesn't). If you don't, here's the short version: we don't notice the good digital effects because they're so good or so subtle. We usually only notice the bad stuff.

    2. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And, CGI is growing instead of decreasing like the article claims. I worked on Mad Max, and out of about 2,400 shots there's about 2,000 shots that include CGI. Also, do you really believe Disney made a lightsaber for Star Wars?

    3. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Half assed effects in general....

      I don't know if the tornados in the movie Twister were CGI or not, but I could have made better looking tornados by filming coffee beans swirling around in the toilet.

    4. Re:Well... by Tx · · Score: 2

      Exactly. I'm not sure why the summary mentioned Jurassic Park as if it started an era of gratuitous CGI. The CGI in Jurassic Park was *impressive* in 1993, and there are a lot of movies now with CGI that doesn't look as good. But more importantly, Jurassic Park used physical animatronics for the close up dinosaurs, the CGI was used for stuff that couldn't be done any other way, i.e. large flocks of dinosaurs etc, it didn't use CGI just for the sake of it.

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    5. Re:Well... by alvinrod · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A lot of the stuff done for Mad Max was just adding matting to enhance the look of the landscape to better suit the tone and feel of the movie or combining effects from multiple shots. They still had real vehicles and a lot of stunt work, which several videos showcase. Of course they're going to use the standard editing tricks, but other directors would have put even more CGI into the film in place of those practical effects. In Mad Max the CGI was there to enhance the film, not to make big chunks of it.

    6. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was a fantastic link to share. Thank you for that.

    7. Re:Well... by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      And thrown a plastic cow in.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    8. Re:Well... by azcoyote · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Good link. He makes a lot of good arguments, especially at the end where he points out that good movies are forgiven for bad effects, which means that what makes a movie good or bad is not really so much the effects but the storytelling. However, there is one important link between the effects and the storytelling today that can be overlooked in this argument. The problem today with effects is not the failure of the artists but often the failure of directors, writers, producers, etc., who specifically insert superfluous effects in order to rely on them in lieu of a decent story. Hence bad or superfluous effects can be an indicator of a bad film, but they themselves do not of themselves make a movie bad. They are mere symptoms of a deeper problem.

      (If the reader lost attention during this comment, I guess it was because no superfluous 3D CG objects flew at the camera or exploded in an over-the-top way that adds nothing to the meaning of what I'm saying...)

      --
      Incipiamus, fratres, servire Domino Deo, quia hucusque vix vel parum in nullo profecimus.
    9. Re:Well... by Altus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If Lucas had made Mad Max the only vehicle that might have actually been a physical object would have been the war rig, and even that probably would have just have been a static set in a green room.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    10. Re:Well... by mwvdlee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This all is completely predictable, happens in every area of art, craft, engineering, etc.

      1. A new hamer becomes available. Everything suddenly looks like a nail
      2. Turns out most things aren't nails. Everybody stops using the hamer, because it's so often the wrong tool.
      3. Some things turn out to actually be nails, and people start using the hamer for what it was made for.

      Digital effects are only now entering phase 2, because phase 1 just kept on going so long with ever more powerful technology.

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    11. Re:Well... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      It's more than just faddish CGI. I watched part of Man of Steel last night, and silently raged at two stupidities: the muted colors, and the shakey cam everywhere

      Roger Ebert maintained this was more about hiding the shitty reality of CGI than trying to add subconscious action feels. I completely agree here. Compare vs., say, Watchmen, where action was crystal clear, and often in slo mo for that matter.

      Then the movie ended, with Superman learning he must sometimes kill to save innocents. And the writers learning nothing about what Superman is.

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    12. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then the movie ended, with Superman learning he must sometimes kill to save innocents. And the writers learning nothing about what Superman is.

      That's not what Superman learned at all. You are bad at subtext.

    13. Re:Well... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Informative

      The realistic and scary tornado in Wizard of Oz was basically a rolled up carpet twisted around.

      --
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    14. Re:Well... by catchblue22 · · Score: 2

      Agreed. I encourage folks to check out Rocket Jump's video Why CG Sucks (Except it Doesn't). If you don't, here's the short version: we don't notice the good digital effects because they're so good or so subtle. We usually only notice the bad stuff.

      One of my favourite movies, Master and Commander, uses CG, but it is not obvious that it does. I think that is the best use of CG, when it is largely invisible and not flaunting itself in your face. Mad Max, Fury Road is another great example.

      --
      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    15. Re:Well... by Talderas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who knew the Jim Henson company was right. Well, practically anyone who paid even the slightest amount of attention. CGI is fine when it's used to touch up or create things you can't reasonable do with practical applications but when you have the actors interact with the creature in question you want something that is adequate for the actor to act with. Ian McKellen interacted with a ball hanging from a stick when dealing with the Balrog in Fellowship.

      I will say that Farscape was probably one of the best examples of why you want puppets or animatronics for your non-human entities rather than CGI. You can see so many more levels of interaction between the cast and Rygel and Pilot. The cast could not only touch pilot but could interact and emote with pilot in ways that would seem far less believable if it were CGI. This is what helped bring these two characters to life. The actors were able to react in believable ways so not only were we subjected to the persona of the puppets we were also subjected to how the non-puppet characters reacted to the puppet characters. Life was given.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    16. Re:Well... by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1

      I don't buy it. The public happily flings piles of cash at really bad movies which in turn causes other filmmaker to make the say kind of movies since, well, the public WILL go see it.

      Case in point, the James Bond film Skyfall. It made HUGE box office but when you actually look at what was in the film, it was just a generic action movie with the Bond name stuck on it, and there was nothing in the film that had anything to do with the Bond trademarks (gadgets, babes, really bad villain). Instead there were no gadgets worth mentioning, nor babes, the villain and in fact the entire cast were idiots, and the whole plot only happened the way it did because the writers made it so, not because it made any sense whatsoever.

      Nobody cared. A lot of stuff blew up and a lot of tickets got sold. For the most recent Bond film, Spectre, I believe I read that it had within it the biggest practical effects explosion ever filmed for a movie. They bragged heavily about this and for my part I know nothing else about the movie except they blew up a lot of pyro and gasoline bombs. Which makes my point that it's now all about how big you can make the boom and far less about story or acting or direction. Nah. Just toss in some pyro and gasoline bombs, film it in slo mo and rake in the dollars. And because you do rake in the money, you and 50 other people will make the same film only bigger next time.

      --
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    17. Re:Well... by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      I used to hit up all the BBS's to get the latest CGI demos. My friends and I would look at a great ray-trace of a chrome ball and remark "how realistic", "graphics are really getting cool", etc. That one movie about the kid and the video game and the spaceships was all about cgi, and we wondered at the time and effort it took to do it. Etc.

      Roll forward 20-30 years and it all looks pretty dated. Especially when it's done to a movie made today. I definitely support the trend. When I can't tell is when I think it's done best.

      Mad Max astounded me with the real-action stuntwork. I can still see some of the scenes in my mind's eye...live action, beautifully done.

      People can always tell (lookup "uncanny valley")(nvrmnd, preaching to the choir here). F'rinstance, I've yet to see *any* movie replicate a scene of a person walking on the moon realistically. I have seen excellent reproductions of free fall, though, through a combo of good editing and rides in the Vomit Comet.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    18. Re:Well... by xevioso · · Score: 1

      Superman killed many times in the comics. I'm sure you knew this, though.

    19. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is basically the premise behind "bad CGI"

      You have Film-tier, TV-tier, Videogame-tier, and then "we paid 1 chinese dood 20$ for this effect"

      So Avatar, Once Upon a Time, Fallout 4, and then FoodFight!.

      If a film meets or beats Avatar in CGI being good, that's fine, but most of the time we get bad CGI like Transformers where way too much effort put into CGI and blowing things up. CGI needs to not replace practical effects where practical effects are available and not cost-prohibitive (like you would never blow up a real town, but you could certainly blow up a miniature, but a CG "boom" effect is much easier to refine without building multiple sets.) But vehicles really do need to be real, or at least "real enough" otherwise they look like a video game. People should never be CGI, only non-humans, and humans-morphing-into-something-else.

      TV-tier is jokingly what I refer to as "better than a video game, but extremely ugly", usually TV is better suited to practical effects because CG will look out of place, and short of a few Disney shows, TV CG tends to be such low quality it takes the viewer out of the show instead of making it better. Hence why I mention Once Upon A time. Every macro CG effect in that show is terrible, the digital sets are incredibly obvious it's a chroma-key (green-screen.) Other shows, typically for children make such ugly use of CG (Wizards of Waverly Place) that if it wasn't targeted at kids, there would be a lot more reason to complain (like terribly paced plotlines.)

      Video Game tier is "whatever we could do with the video game engine without pre-rendering it to film quality", so games like Fallout, Halo, Mass Effect, and so forth are capable of generating reasonable cut scenes using the video game engine and a reasonable video card, but tend to only be "good" relative to the game they are in, and look butt-ugly compared to film. That said, it's possible to leverage the same hardware to render film-CG level (see some stuff made with blender), but it often comes off as kinda gross looking. Look up any "3D" 60fps porn and you'll find plenty of garbage level CG stuff and a few goldmines of typically Japanese content where the characters look reasonably realistic, but all the rest of the content looks rather slapped together. "Western" 3D CG stuff tends to be very ugly and gross looking that I'll save everyone the effort and just tell you that people in the US seem to care more about blood and gore than any other country.

      Then you have "made in china" CG stuff which is actually worse than what you'd find in a video game. Like... the content made by Next Media Animation (which is Taiwan) tends to be just a cut above acceptable for a news report, but is pretty awful if you were to try to make anything serious with it. This is the reference to FoodFight! which aside from the garbage-tier writing, somehow managed to create CG that you'd expect out of a 3DO or early Playstation game. In 2012.

    20. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, your pretentious and condescending writing style lost my attention.

    21. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that it's simply impossible to good digital effects many times. There has never been a representation of a living being done in CGI that looks real, no matter how much time and money they put into it.

    22. Re:Well... by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      We're already partway into phase 3. Look at a movie like Mad Max Fury Road. Awesome all-physical effects right? Nope, just about everything is stitched together from multiple takes and separate stunts. The explosions are real, but they're composited in using CGI.

      Good CGI is when you don't notice it.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    23. Re:Well... by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure Lucas didn't make a lightsaber for Episodes 4, 5, and 6 either. If I recall correctly they directly modified the negatives to create the beam effect.

      This article is not about special effects. It's about digital effects. Nobody here has anything against special effects, digital or otherwise, as long as they work, the issue with digital effects is that they're used these days even when they don't work, and look unreal (Star Wars Prequels Trilogy, pretty much every post-2000 superhero movie) or stupid (someone above gave an example of the car bomb Transporter 2 thing.)

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    24. Re:Well... by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      A lot of the subtle CGI is this: Removing supporting structures from final shots.

      A classic example is the senate hearing scene in Contact. The pillars in the hearing room were swathed in cables and lighting when filmed. CGI was used to take them all out, so that what was seen is what would normally be seen.

      Bad CGI (and bad practical effects) are generally noticeable when the laws of newtonian physics are so blatently ignored that we notice at least subconciously, but not so blatently ignored that we can conciously discount them as part of the willing suspension of disbelief that the movies require. They're jarring and THAT'S why we don't like them.

      Going to older movies and seeing CGI or matte which shows because we expect better detailing is a different matter. The first time around they were good enough and trying to remake them to satisfy a contemporary audience risks the film being jarring when future audiences watch and notice the detailing which shouldn't be there but doesn't match _their_ expectations of higher quality CGI.

    25. Re:Well... by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "the failure of directors, writers, producers, etc., who specifically insert superfluous effects"

      Effects, explosions and boobs have always been used to distract from a rotten plot.

    26. Re:Well... by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "When you actually look at what was in the film, it was just a generic action movie with the Bond name stuck on it"

      Which is what the audience wanted to see. Ditto the huge number of Jet LI or Chow Yun Fat movies. You know when you go in that it's all about the fight scenes, not the plot.

      In the case of Bond movies, its worth bearing in mind that there was no such thing as a James Bond novel. They're books of short stories of various "Bond" events and the "Bond" in the story isn't necessarily the same one all the way through that book (ie: James Bond is simply a generic name for "Random MI6 agent") - and in fact it's not necessary that he survived the story in question, which is why you see such improbable plot twists in the movies to explain how it all ties together.

    27. Re:Well... by azcoyote · · Score: 1

      Good point--when I spoke about bad movies, I assumed (from my own viewpoint) that what makes a good movie is something more than its commercial viability. But the truth is that many movies that many of us will call "bad" are good from the only viewpoint that typically matters: economics.

      Even the typical argument that a good movie is one that will be remembered years later is open to question, even though some common sense correlation can be seen that at face value would corroborate this argument. I'm sure that 100 years from now some movies that I call "bad" will still be remembered for this or that reason. Or, what may even be worse, these "bad" movies will have a lasting influence on the way in which other movies are designed for years to come, precisely because the criterion of judgment is usually not some higher art but simply the box office impact.

      While I still maintain that there has to be some better way to judge a movie, I have to admit that a universal criterion of judgment is elusive. This is especially the case because, once we shove all idealism aside, it becomes impossible to yearn nostalgically for some past golden era where films were "good" and filled with rich plots and deep meaning rather than over-the-top effects. Nostalgia in this sense always yearns for a past that never was present. In fact, I believe that even in the day of Greek dramas there were popular dramas that substituted the special effects of the day in lieu of good writing.

      --
      Incipiamus, fratres, servire Domino Deo, quia hucusque vix vel parum in nullo profecimus.
    28. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of the subtle CGI is this: Removing supporting structures from final shots.

      A classic example is the senate hearing scene in Contact. The pillars in the hearing room were swathed in cables and lighting when filmed. CGI was used to take them all out, so that what was seen is what would normally be seen.

      I don't really consider that CGI though, it's just digital compositing. CGI stands for "computer-generated imagery," and sometimes it can be a fine line, but I don't think that scene in Contact is anything that couldn't have been done with a matte painting.

      Having invested a lot of time in learning digital modeling, rendering, and animation, it kind of grates on me when people talk about the great "CGI" in Forrest Gump. Just because it's digital doesn't mean it's CGI.

    29. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There has never been a representation of a living being done in CGI that looks real, no matter how much time and money they put into it.

      Maybe not 100% yet, but we are getting really close !

    30. Re:Well... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      That movie has the actor in it that's pretty good. He's a method actor, I guess they call them. He does bizarre things to get into character - like spending a year living totally in character even prior to the production of the movie even beginning. Crowe, that's his name, even went so far as to learn to play a violin just for that movie. He'd no skills at the violin prior to the movie but learned just so he could play it, understand it, and act it out in the movie - to the best of his ability.

      I don't know who the others are but I guess there are a few others but most don't go to his insane levels. For another film, he spent like a year learning to be a swashbuckler or something like that? I don't really watch a lot of movies or anything. I don't know the actors names, usually, so I'm not a good source for this. At any rate, I kind of know who he is and I know the movie - it's pretty good, honestly. He's a very good actor. I've seen him in a couple of other films (though I don't recall a damned one of them at the moment) and I do recollect that I didn't actively dislike any of them.

      I should probably look into it more. I won't. I should, however. Method acting is what I think they call it and he's really pretty good at it. I understand he's managed to pick up a pretty wide array of skills through it all. I don't really know a lot about it, him, or even movies - I don't want many movies or any television really. Well, not typical movies. I watch loads and loads of movies but they're documentaries. That's really all I watch.

      At any rate, I've a house full of people so I should probably pay attention to them soon. Otherwise, I'd look for more information. If you're not familiar with him then that's all the information I have without the aid of Google. I'd probably like to see more of his movies. I know I've seen at least a couple of others but don't even remotely recall their names. He's one of the folks who does a good job. There's the guy in Meet Joe Black who does a good job too, both of those guys do pretty good.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    31. Re:Well... by BeamSaber · · Score: 1

      Is this including Charlize Theron's arm? What are some examples of CGI that the non-trained eye might have missed? I'm genuinely curious, since I thought the movie was very CGI-light.

    32. Re:Well... by CynthiaFulcanelli · · Score: 1

      I agree, personally I have nothing against CGI - it has just been overused in the last decade or so.

    33. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. It wasn't. You just do t know the difference. Do a search for vfx breakdowns. Check out the toxic storm sequence. Get a clue.

  3. A return to normalcy by scunc · · Score: 1

    Hopefully this means that the next Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie is going to bring back the 80s-style turtle suits instead of using CGI ...

    1. Re:A return to normalcy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hopefully this means that the next Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie is going to bring back the 80s-style turtle suits instead of using CGI ...

      A return to normalcy would mean that Hollywood would stop assuming that all anyone ever wants to see on the big screen is yet another fucking sequel.

      Fat fucking chance of that.

    2. Re:A return to normalcy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is, that *Is* what everyone wants... in aggregate.

      It's not spikes (individuals) that matter, it's streams

    3. Re:A return to normalcy by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      Or maybe create something new. That is, new genre or a new story, sorry don't ask me as I have no imagination. But there are brilliant people out there, just need to reimburse them for their efforts. Instead of usual budgeting $5000 for writers and $5000000000000 for special effects.

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    4. Re:A return to normalcy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A return to normalcy would mean that Hollywood would stop assuming that all anyone ever wants to see on the big screen is yet another fucking sequel.

      That would not be normalcy at all. Normalcy is what we have right now: lots of sequels, and lots of idiots like you claiming that sequel-itis is a new thing. It has been like this for decades.

    5. Re:A return to normalcy by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      Instead of usual budgeting $5000 for writers and $5000000000000 for the marketing hype-train.

      Fixed that for you.

    6. Re:A return to normalcy by lgw · · Score: 1

      A return to normalcy would mean that Hollywood would stop assuming that all anyone ever wants to see on the big screen is yet another fucking sequel.

      Fat fucking chance of that.

      When that eventually passes, and everyone looks down on sequels, then is the right time for a TMNT sequel., at least to be in the original satirical spirit of the comic.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    7. Re:A return to normalcy by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      thanks! this makes much more sense, explains everything (including why I rarely go to the theatre)

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    8. Re: A return to normalcy by Goonie · · Score: 2

      You're assuming that movie studios invest hundreds of millions of dollars because they're collectively dumb. They aren't. Studios fund sequels, franchises, and certain actors and directors because they more reliably attract audiences than films that don't have these properties.

      --

      Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
      --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    9. Re:A return to normalcy by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      I wish it was sequels.

      It's prequels and reboots, messing up each and every of your childhood memories.

      To add insult to injury: the new Star Wars worked because it was a remake. Disguised as sequel. *shrugs* Well it works sometimes. Austin Powers, Blues Brothers

      --
      bickerdyke
    10. Re:A return to normalcy by beanpoppa · · Score: 1

      I don't think your numbers are accurate. I've know a couple of Hollywood writers. They tend to get a lot of money for a script. Most of their scripts get locked up in hold options, and never even get made. This is in the order of 100's of thousands of dollars, and it's all to them (minus the cut to their agent, manager, taxes, etc). The special effects, while in the millions, is a lot more money, is spread over a very large team, hardware investments etc.

  4. Trend? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    I would call a movie made by someone who hasn't done action movies since the computer age started, and a movie that was promising fan service due to the hated use of special effects previously a trend. Don't get me wrong, I think Mad Max was one of the best action movies I've seen in a long long time, and I hope to see more of it. They seem like outliers to me.

    1. Re:Trend? by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      Actually, I watch a LOT of special features and commentaries on Blu Ray films. What a lot of directors have realized is 100% CGI looks unreal, and 100% practical isn't possible for some of the things they want to put in film.

      So what they've started doing is filming much of the sequences with actors in green screens, but otherwise actually acting the scene as much as possible .. then they combine the CGI and practical to produce a much more realistic looking thing.

      Mad Max took this to some crazy levels, and actually built the vehicles and raced them through the dessert. They did so much of it as real it's mind boggling .. it's not some guys on a sound stage.

      There was a while when CG was starting to look completely fake, because they'd gone with Digital Stuntman or whatever it was, and entire segments were purely effects ... but it has definitely been a trend for the last bunch of years to go back to more old-school film making, and combining it with the digital. So they'll motion capture the actors actually doing the scene, they'll build as much as they can in practical, and then they'll fill in the environment around them.

      It's definitely a trend, and it's definitely for the better ... movies like Dare Devil or some of the Spiderman stuff had started to get to the point of looking gimmicky and fake.

      Having the actors really do a scene and integrating that with digital produces a MUCH better film, and directors have been realizing it. Which is good, because the audience also realize it.

      I can definitely say (as a keen layman who watches the special features on movies), this has really been a trend by a lot of directors over the last bunch of years. And it really is contributing to better movies.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Trend? by PRMan · · Score: 1

      I assume you're not talking about Netflix Daredevil, as that was VERY realistic. Ben Affleck just makes everything look fake.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    3. Re:Trend? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      You want to make anything an actor interacts with as real as possible. I still think that Farscape really showcases just how much of a better performance you get out of actors when dealing with decidedly non-human creatures that cannot use makeup and costumes to create. There is an attachment that you can find between the crew of Moya and the Rygel / Pilot puppets that you simply could not replicate with a CGI creature.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  5. Practical vs Digital by Nidi62 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One nice thing about practical effects is, if done right, they age extremely well. The dinosaurs from Jurassic Park, the aliens from Aliens, even set pieces like the sinking Titanic built in a giant pool or a model White House blowing up in ID4 all look just as good now as they did when their respective movies first premiered. But look at movies even just 5-10 years old that relied heavily on green-screen and other similar technology: they look horrible. The difference in quality, clarity, and movement between live actors and digitally added characters or backgrounds can now be incredibly jarring, and as technology (both in terms of creating/processing digital effects and the technology to display it) improves, what was once cutting edge and extremely lifelike or realistic feels completely outdated only a few years later.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    1. Re:Practical vs Digital by chmod+a+x+mojo · · Score: 1

      For bad CG I would agree 100%

      CG done right though? Just look at Final Fantasy: Advent Children. It came out in 2005, is 100% CG, and still looks damn good even though it is 11 years old now. Guess that is what happens when you literally have to make advances in the fields you are using to make a movie though, you get something that holds up pretty well.

      --
      To err is human; effective mayhem requires the root password!
    2. Re:Practical vs Digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Conversely Final Fantasy: Spirits Within

      So... it has to be "done right" i.e. not dropping into the uncanny valley with the Polar Express and other equally cringe-inducing CG efforts

    3. Re:Practical vs Digital by PvtVoid · · Score: 2

      incredibly jarring

      Or incredible Jar-Jaring.

    4. Re:Practical vs Digital by Wycliffe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One nice thing about special effects is, if done right, they age extremely well.

      There, fixed that for you. It doesn't matter whether it's done with CGI or not, if it's done where it truly looks real then it will age well. Looking at Jaws or even the original star wars trilogy, there are scenes now that look terrible today. Guess what?, they looked terrible then too but it was the best they could do so people gave them a pass. If you are limited by technology then it will eventually age the movie but if it's done where it is indistinguishable from reality then it doesn't matter what technology you use whether practical effects or CGI. The only reason that practical effects have aged a little better in certain areas is because many times it's easier to make it look truly realistic with practical effects but we're now there with CGI if people are willing to put in the effort. CGI actually has surpassed many practical effects like animatronics.

    5. Re:Practical vs Digital by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      I actually never saw Advent Children. I did see The Spirit Within and never really experienced the uncanny valley with the animation there. It just needed work on the story.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    6. Re:Practical vs Digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Part of what you're seeing is due to bigger screens in the home and HD.

      It's like watching movies from the 80's, you hear that crappy synth soundtrack that sounded so cutting edge then, and suddenly your old favorite movie is suddenly unbearable.

      See BladeRunner for exhibit A. Great movie, nearly unwatchable (listenable) now.

    7. Re:Practical vs Digital by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Um...the dinosaurs from Jurassic Park /were/ CGI.

    8. Re:Practical vs Digital by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      CG done right though? Just look at Final Fantasy: Advent Children. It came out in 2005, is 100% CG, and still looks damn good even though it is 11 years old now. Guess that is what happens when you literally have to make advances in the fields you are using to make a movie though, you get something that holds up pretty well.

      Or Gravity where something like +80% of the 91 min running time is CG. Sure it's only 3 years old, but the CG will probably hold up well over time.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    9. Re:Practical vs Digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except FF:AC is just a cartoon with a bad story, where it doesn't matter how well the CG integrates with real footage. You never have the comparison to real people to notice that it looks bad or outdated, so it always just looks the same as it always did.

      The comment you replied to is referring to the integration of CG with real people, and how easy it is to tell the difference, especially as years go by and the technology gets better.

      Apples and Oranges and all that.

    10. Re:Practical vs Digital by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The only reason that practical effects have aged a little better in certain areas is because many times it's easier to make it look truly realistic with practical effects

      I don't think that's quite it, they fail in completely different ways - this is a rubber mask vs this looks grafted on with a computer - and once you've seen good CGI it's so much easier to spot the flaws in bad CGI. You just don't have that contrast with practical effects because they've mostly stood still. Modern CGI, well these days you mostly don't notice unless they want you to notice.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    11. Re:Practical vs Digital by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Um...the dinosaurs from Jurassic Park /were/ CGI.

      As someone mentioned, the Gallimimus herd and some of the other parts (such as the raptor leaping onto the T rex, as well as the running T rex) were CGI. But the sick triceratops, the full T Rex, and the raptors were practical effects.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    12. Re:Practical vs Digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like watching movies from the 80's, you hear that crappy synth soundtrack that sounded so cutting edge then, and suddenly your old favorite movie is suddenly unbearable.

      See BladeRunner for exhibit A. Great movie, nearly unwatchable (listenable) now.

      Speak for yourself sir. I, for one, adore the 80's synth soundtracks and wouldn't mind a return. Vangelis' Blade Runner soundtrack is absolutely fantastic and adds a great deal more to the film than a traditional orchestrated score would have in my opinion. This is a matter of taste, not fact.

    13. Re:Practical vs Digital by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      This. There is some very old CGI that still looks great. It's CGI that you did not even notice as CGI the first time you watched the film.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    14. Re:Practical vs Digital by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      For this I offer up the original Kink Kong (1933). Basically it was the original special effects movie for those who haven't seen it. Now over 80 years later it still holds up fairly well. Granted most of things were brand new and look a little rough but then watch Terminator 2 and the more advance effects there are also a little rough by today's standards. While King Kong may have rough edges today it wasn't really until T2 that we saw a substantial improvement in effects, yes stop motion got better as did rear projection, animatronics, etc. but it wasn't until CGI that there was another giant leap forward.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    15. Re:Practical vs Digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My friends and I used to play "spot the puppet" when JP first came out on video.

      The general rule is, if you see the entire animal in motion on the screen, it's CGI. If you see close-ups or only part of the dino, it's a puppet.

      The FX team said they originally didn't plan to make the T-Rex CGI at the end (when it fights the raptors in the visitor center) but by the end of production, they had done enough work with the digital model, they felt comfortable animating the entire sequence, including close-ups.

    16. Re:Practical vs Digital by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Actually I think that is a bad example. The music goes well with it. Vangelis FTW!

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    17. Re: Practical vs Digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +5

    18. Re:Practical vs Digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? I didn't think that it held up in the movie theather.

    19. Re:Practical vs Digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha, ha. "Kink" Kong.

    20. Re:Practical vs Digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The total combined length of scenes with on-screen CG dinosaurs in the original Jurassic Park is just 4 minutes.

      And guess which parts aged the worst?

  6. I think this ought to be worded a bit more subtly by muecksteiner · · Score: 2

    The authors have a point, but "Hollywood Turning Against Flashy Digital Effects You Can See From a Mile Off as Being Artificial" would be more accurate. The VFX industry will definitely not shrink, it will just shift focus a bit. There are some things we are only now getting the hang of, and which were simply not possible before. And these will be the shiny new toys of the next decade.

    Consider the necromancy that Weta Digital pulled off with the likeness of the late Paul Walker for "Fast and Furious 7". For some of the shots in that movie, even the chaps on the VFX team could no longer tell what was real, and what was not. That sort of thing is going to be a considerable part of the future: it's VFX alright, but of the more subtle sort.

    Think a new movie with Marilyn Monroe, or something like that. A totally normal, Woody-Allen-like movie, with zero visible special effects, and scenes that are implausible from a physics viewpoint. Not even any stunts. Ordinary human beings acting in some normal, run-of-the-mill story. Just with a totally convincing, resurrected Marilyn Monroe (or some other iconic star of the 1950ies) playing one of the roles, together with current stars.

    But I fully agree that Gigantic Explosions in Space With Lots of Tentacles, Vol. XXVII, is no longer the hottest thing in movies. That is indeed getting a bit long in the tooth.

  7. when will astronomy follow? by sittingnut · · Score: 1

    whenever there are new discoveries in astronomy they are shown in artists' renderings, even when there are real images(unexciting ones it is true compared to sci-fi movie derived fake versions)
    i for one find it annoying and find those who engaging in that intellectually dishonest.

    1. Re:when will astronomy follow? by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Well, then, you are going to be REALLY disappointed by origins science, then.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
  8. Peak CGI by RobinH · · Score: 1

    I though "peak CGI" had to be Transformers 4. That movie was sooo bad, but if you really like explosions, I guess that's who liked it.

    --
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    1. Re:Peak CGI by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Well, and what you have to remember is the "summer action blockbuster" exists independent of what critics say.

      Love it or hate it, there's always going to be that segment which will go see anything with enough giant robots, explosions, car chases, fight scenes ...

      That market segment isn't looking for insightful social commentary and sophisticated allegory about the human condition. And there's always going to be that market.

      Because that market is very profitable.

      So, I won't eve talk about Transformers 4 ... other than to point out that IMDB lists #5 for 2017, and has placeholders for 6, 7, and 8.

      If people go, that is what defined "good" and "successful".

      That weepy art-house film everybody raves about but didn't sell many tickets? Well, don't pretend like it made any money. Sure, it was 'relevant', or 'topical', or 'moving'. But the handful of people who saw it didn't make it a financial success.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Peak CGI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Semantics, but "good" is kind of broad, and can contradict. In a business context, sure, it was the "good" choice.

      If you say explode-happy was the "right" thing to do, that would be arguably true even in artistic contexts.

    3. Re: Peak CGI by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      The one that drove it home for me was Avengers - I was really enjoying the movie until the climax battle scene when they went from augmentive CGI to immersive CGI, and it was just another giant snake-ship destroys NYC romp for fifteen minutes. I checked out after five. Any competent outsider could have saved them twenty million and turned out a tighter film - I was really disappointed Joss went in that direction. The trailer for #2 was so full of frenetic junk I just skipped it - friends say that was the right move.

      I think I know why they do this, though. Really successful movies are usually both character-driven and spectacular. But bean-counters, who run Hollywood, only see the line-item for spectacle on their analyses. So they insist on spending it on the next movie because they see it brings in crowds - except when it doesn't.

      Ah, well, we'll always have the art-house, especially after it's been fumigated for post-modernists.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    4. Re:Peak CGI by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Semantics, but "good" is kind of broad, and can contradict. In a business context, sure, it was the "good" choice.

      Well, there are always going to be films made to make money, and others created for 'art'.

      If you want to make money ... well, plan for that.

      If you want to make art ... well, don't be surprised if you don't make money.

      It's up to the people making the films to decide which route they want to go. The people making Transformers? Well, they're pretty clear on that they're doing it for.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    5. Re:Peak CGI by RobinH · · Score: 1

      All you have to do is compare Transformers 1 to Transformers 4. The first one is actually an enjoyable movie. The fourth starts out OK, but 2/3 of the way through it doesn't even have any plot consistency left (why is that girl in that car again?) and it's simply big CGI with thing that I don't care about being blown up. Same with the newer Superman movie... invincible people fighting each other is boring, no matter how many buildings they throw each other through.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
  9. CGI jumped the shark a long time ago by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    When they replaced tracer rounds with 'laser' beams in world war 2 flicks, I knew the party was over. CGI is short for chintzy...

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:CGI jumped the shark a long time ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Laser beams in WW2 flicks? Can you name one so I have context?

    2. Re:CGI jumped the shark a long time ago by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Captain America?

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    3. Re:CGI jumped the shark a long time ago by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Top Gun (not a WW2 flick but they did the same thing), Red Tails, Fury... It really looks so cheap and fake..

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    4. Re:CGI jumped the shark a long time ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That shit simply does not act like a proper tracer round acts in real world.
      Probably the CGI people have never really fired hundreds of rounds of tracers for comparison in dark night in some open field.

  10. Automata by goombah99 · · Score: 2

    I just watched a recent Antonio Banderas flick called Automata. It is kind of a slow paced more realistic version of i-robot. What was striking about it was that they used robots. Not hollywood robots. I think they were actua lhuman shaped robots. That is to say extremely limited robots and not actually capable of their alleged uses. They shuffle a bit. Are very clunky. In a few places they are not clunky so I think some deft CGI or men-in-robot suits was spliced in.

    Anyhow what I'm getting to is this. it's well done. You aren't really bothered by the clunky robots because the actors and clever cinematogrpahy all make you believe they are the highly capable robots they represent. For example, their hands actually can't hold anything but the actors work around that in ways that you don't notice, for example holding their hands in a caring way while slyly holding the object so it doesn'f fall out.

    The story is slow paced and while there are moments of action and suspense it's mostly a space for the actors to work. The fact that in a very low budget movie they can bring alive these machines to you says a lot. It is cerebral sci fi, and probably more like what Asimov was writing about.

    Anyhow I was really shocked they would dare to make this in the age of CGI and hollywood animatronics. but they did and it's a good movie (if you have the patience for slow paced things.)

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Automata by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      reflecting on why it worked, I think it's partly because for the tone of this movie you sort of read like an enhance play. real world sets but you percieve it as an acted drama not as a hyper realistic. So your mind adapts to the format. And it's something of a relief. You appreciate the drama more without the glitz. the CGI is used so sparingly you can't tell where it exactly is (except for one particular robot with a short screen time).

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  11. No, it's just a marketing ploy... by paulzoop · · Score: 0

    JJ Abrams might have said that, but have a look at this Star Wars breakdown reel and then tell me how many 'practical' fx where used. https://vimeo.com/151719063 ..I know it's fashionable to say this - but it's just a gimmick.

    1. Re:No, it's just a marketing ploy... by PRMan · · Score: 2

      I don't care that Star Wars doesn't feel real. I'd be more impressed if JJ Abrams made a Star Wars that feels like Star Wars and not some shallow copy.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    2. Re:No, it's just a marketing ploy... by NotDrWho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That whole movie was just one giant gimmick., from the shameless degree of fan service to the breakneck-speed plot (no time for dialogue, MORE ACTION!!) to the politically-correct casting of Wonder Woman and Token Black Guy.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    3. Re:No, it's just a marketing ploy... by omnichad · · Score: 1

      This is why JJ Abrams said he wouldn't direct Episode VII back in 2012:

      Look, Star Wars is one of my favorite movies of all time. I frankly feel that – I almost feel that, in a weird way, the opportunity for whomever it is to direct that movie, it comes with the burden of being that kind of iconic movie and series. I was never a big Star Trek fan growing up, so for me, working on Star Trek didn’t have any of that, you know, almost fatal sacrilege, and so, I am looking forward more than anyone to the next iterations of Star Wars, but I believe I will be going as a paying moviegoer!

      Two months later, he was announced as director. He should have trusted himself enough to not direct it. It was almost like fanfiction rather than a real movie, and that's exactly what I thought would happen with him as director.

    4. Re:No, it's just a marketing ploy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just to be clear, from here out any movie with female and/or black leads is "politically correct"? It doesn't matter if the characters are any good or not, if they're awesome (and Rey and Finn are) it's still morally wrong to you because they're not white and male?

    5. Re:No, it's just a marketing ploy... by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      No, what makes them politically correct is the fact that the female is Wonder Woman (perfect in every way, and "empowered" in the only most brain-dead shallow manner) and because they work so hard to distance the black guy from any black stereotypes that he pretty much disappears as a real human being.

      Princess Leia was empowered in a much better way than Wonder Woman. She was incredibly strong, but not in some shallow "She's a man, but with tits" kind of way. Leia wasn't jumping around beating down 250-lb dudes, flying ships that she had no way of knowing how to fly, out-showing every male character in every way at every turn, etc. She had strength of character, kept a clear head in a crisis, and was a natural leader. But she wasn't Mary Sue Wonder Woman. And she wasn't presented as perfect, flawless, and invincible.

      And give me Lando any day over Token Black Guy. Lando actually was an interesting character--with his own agenda, guilt, and conflicted loyalties. Token Black Guy is so shallow that he could be CGI generated an no one would even notice.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    6. Re:No, it's just a marketing ploy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, what makes them politically correct is the fact that the female is Wonder Woman (perfect in every way, and "empowered" in the only most brain-dead shallow manner)

      I assume you were equally upset when Lucas made a white eight year old kid perfect in every way.

      and because they work so hard to distance the black guy from any black stereotypes that he pretty much disappears as a real human being.

      Uh, what? This makes no sense whatsoever. Finn was probably the most deeply explored and human character in the whole fucking movie.

      ...but because he wasn't a "black stereotype" of some sort (you realise this is set in space, right?) he wasn't a "real human being"?

      Mary Sue

      You have no idea what the term even means do you, you're just throwing out other people's criticisms and going "Yeah! I didn't like it either but this makes my argument sound intellectual".

      It's rather obvious that there's a reason Rey is a skilled pilot, like 8 year old Anakin, and has force skills, like 8 year old Anakin. Therefore, she isn't a Mary Sue. You have more right to call Finn, who somehow can pick up light sabre skills (fighting Kylo Ren and wounding him no less!) and who can apparently operate any cannon/blaster type weapon he lays his hands on a Mary Sue.

      You didn't understand the movie. But what's scary is it sounds like you actually didn't want to, and that's why.

      Or are you going to tell me, seriously, you thought Anakin Skywalker was a Mary Sue too and that you were just as angry about him being a skilled, force using, ace pilot badass, as Rey?

      'cos I'm not going to believe you if you say that. I think this is solely because she's a woman, which is why you just spent ages comparing her to Leia.

    7. Re:No, it's just a marketing ploy... by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      Or are you going to tell me, seriously, you thought Anakin Skywalker was a Mary Sue too

      8-year-old pod-racing hero Anakin was one of my biggest objections to TPM, second only to Mitoclorians. I found it even more laughable than Jar Jar. And, yes, 8-year-old Annie was very much a Mary Sue of pod-racing as well. And, absolutely, an 8-year-old kid being allowed to compete in pod-racing (and winning no less) was fucking ridiculous. It was fucking retarded to put an 8-year-old kid in a role that should have been meant for an older teenager (it also didn't help that Jake Lloyd couldn't act worth a fuck and that his scenes with Padme were just pedo-creepy). About the only thing I can say is that, at least Little Annie was only laughably perfect at ONE thing. Mary Sue Wonder Woman was perfect at EVERYTHING.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    8. Re:No, it's just a marketing ploy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I said, I don't believe you. You're claiming that NOW because you're realizing that after using the PC canard you're having to pretend you're not opposed to women per se, but the fact is using "political correctness" from the beginning did taint your argument.

      Also worth noting: Rey is not "perfect at EVERYTHING", she fucks up repeatedly throughout the movie, from thinking hitting any button on a control panel she doesn't know anything about is a good idea, to being defeated by Kylo Ren twice, and only kinda sorta beating him (we'll never know, the world split in two at that point) by surprising him when he was already wounded and obviously didn't want to fight her. Even her initial attempts to use a Jedi Force trick (on James Bond no less!) have to be repeated multiple times before they work.

      She has, ultimately, the minimum of skills needed to show she's following in Anakin (for whatever reason)'s footsteps. Whether you're pretending now not to have liked Anakin (there are legitimate reasons to like Rey and not like Anakin - the latter is a fucking eight year old for crying out loud and highly unlikely to be an ace fighter pilot no matter how many mitoclorians he has, but not really vice versa) or not, the fact is that's the character, and there's no other way to portray her.

      Exaggerating her perfection and screaming about her "perfection" without recognizing that her actual skillset is hardly unprecedented in the series suggests your problem isn't with her character, coupled with your explicit complaints about "political correctness", is telling. You know damned well a white male character would have had the same attributes. You wouldn't have called in him Superman, and I know this because your complaint was "political correctness."

    9. Re:No, it's just a marketing ploy... by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      You SJW's really need your enemies to fit into the evil misogynist/racist/homophobe narrative don't you? Because I think Rey is a shallow, poorly developed character made to fit some unrealistic and weird politically-correct Wonder Woman archetype then it must mean I HATE ALL WOMEN, right? Because I think Finn is a boring shallow non-character constructed to be as inoffensive as possible, THEN I MUST HATE ALL BLACK PEOPLE!

      Sorry, but Mary Sue Wonder Woman and Token Black Guy were shallow and boring as fuck. And I'm far from the first or only person to recognize it.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    10. Re:No, it's just a marketing ploy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aaaahnd the admission. The use of the pejorative "SJW". Pretty much the go-to for anyone who's realized their motivations for hating something are obnoxious and doesn't want to admit it.

      You. Already. Said. You. Hate. The. Characters. For. Being. Women. And. Black.

      You are the person who raised their genders and races, and used the term "politically correct". So actually it's legitimate for pretty much anyone on the planet right now to dismiss your claim that you felt the same way about Anakin. You didn't feel the same way about Anakin. You didn't because if you had you wouldn't have said "PC" with regards to Rey and Finn.

      Also your arguments are pathetic. Rey is perfect? No she isn't. I gave several examples. Does she have some amazing skills? Yes. Is there a blatantly obvious in-universe reason for her having those skills? Why, yes, there is! We don't know the precise reason but we do know the MOVIE IS TRYING TO TELL US SOMETHING BY GIVING HER THOSE SKILLS.

      How do you propose rewriting Rey while ensuring it's obvious she's connected to Anakin? You claim she should be like... Leia? Really? Why? Leia isn't a pilot and barely has any force skills, she obviously takes after her mother who like her was an accomplished politician.

      Finn is "boring shallow non-character"? The guy who rejects his brainwashing? The guy who lies repeatedly to get away from his Stormtrooper past? The audience surrogate through whom we experience being exposed to this universe?

      Boring huh?

      You admitted your problem when you said "politically correct". You'd have never used the same term when the same things you claim to really be opposed to in Rey were applied to an eight year old white boy. So we know that pretty much everything you say to justify your hatred of Rey doesn't actually apply.

      And your arguments about Finn make no sense.

      Looks like you have some growing up to do.

  12. As long as... by wbr1 · · Score: 1

    As long as it looks better than the semi crash seen in the 2nd Matrix. What a suspension of disbelief breaking pile of rubbish that was.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re: As long as... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How's that different from the bendy building scene in the first one? I thought the whole point it indicates that the Matrix is not real and visually breaks down in extreme circumstances.

    2. Re:As long as... by rhazz · · Score: 1

      The crash scene, the agent jumping between cars, the fight with multiple Agent Smiths, pretty much every scene that had a CGI'd Neo in it. The multiple Agent Smith fight was so awful - it was a huge mistake to do the first half of the battle with actors and the second half with CGI.

    3. Re:As long as... by PRMan · · Score: 2

      That was bad. But the summary is correct. The Hobbit river barrel scene is the worst CGI scene ever.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    4. Re:As long as... by GTRacer · · Score: 1

      ...pretty sure there are some sharks in that river.

      That entire setpiece was just awful. Overlong, overwrought, and just too much of everything. Move the sliders to 50 or 60 percent and we have a deal...

      --
      Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
    5. Re:As long as... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was my favorite scene, it had a great sense of action and was thrilling to watch in 3D.

  13. Thank you! by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As I happen to be someone who loves to tool around with CG artwork, you would think that I'd have no problems with it. If you think that, you would be wrong.

    Unless the entire movie is CG from opening to credits, CG should always be used sparingly, like one could use a spicy sauce or pepper; enough to get the job done and enhance the flavor, but no more. Seriously - a little here and there to show things that would otherwise be impossible or prohibitively expensive to show is great if it's done right. If you just go for an all-out CG-gasm (*cough*Transformers*cough*), then expect to have your movie panned, or at least forgotten within a couple of days by the viewer.

    I say this for two reasons:

    1) The Uncanny Valley awaits, eager to trap any producer that over-does the CG in a live film (or goes crazy for 'realism' in it). Most folks just don't want to be revolted by the stuff unless the CG itself is central to the story (you know, movies about androids and stuff).

    2) A good movie is not just the suspension of disbelief. Acting quality, Storyline, Plots, Chemistry, and more all factor into a great movie. Most of the best movies of all time contain no CG at all, and some even have no special effects... because the acting, story, and flow of the movie produce an inherent quantity of awesome. CG is not going to make up for any shortcomings in any of it.

    Sure, some movies are going to need more of it than others. SciFi, Fantasy, and even horror flicks will demand a lot of eye-candy to help the flow. That said, CG should be secondary to the story, not the brain-whoring centerpiece of it.

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    1. Re:Thank you! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And sometimes you want the Uncanny Valley, like Clu in Tron2.

    2. Re:Thank you! by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Actually, you can even have CGI in every single shot without it looking bad. The key is in using it discreetly. The Truman show is a good example: CGI was extensively used... to render the upper halves of buildings. They built the ground floors as a real set and then digitally added the upper floors, which nothing ever interacts with. Yes, it's just a glorified animated matte painting. But it works very well to turn an unimpressive set into a nicer one.

      CGI can be used well for three things: Unobtrusive background stuff like this, impossible (or prohibitively expensive) things or full-CGI movies. If you stray form that (like, say, making Yoda a full-CGI Gummi Bear with a lightsaber) your movie will probably age very poorly - to the point where it may look ugly before it's even out.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  14. People don't realise by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 3, Informative

    People just don't realise how many practical effects were in The Phantom Menace, for example.

    Shit-tons of practical effects. More practical effects than in the entire original trilogy combined.

    Then slapped a whole bunch of CG-"retouching" on top until everything looks like a 3dCg model.

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    1. Re:People don't realise by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 2

      On the flip side, many people don't realize how much CG they're actually seeing:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
         

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    2. Re:People don't realise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's true, I was an extra. The podrace wasn't CGI, they actually built those podracers and had them race and everything.

    3. Re:People don't realise by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      I had no idea that most of what you see on Monk wasn't filmed on the streets of San Francisco (which I only found out about because of a breakdown video like the you linked to). It just never occurred to me to even consider the idea, so I never noticed. If I went back now, I might spot something about it. Or I might not.

      Seems to me there's a world of difference between "What can we do with CGI?" and "Here's what we would do if we had an unlimited set/production budget - now how do we achieve it with CGI?"

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    4. Re:People don't realise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then they shot every moment of personal interaction on a green screen with shot setup so bad it would earn a film student a failing grade.

      Then saddled the actors with writing that was even worse.

      Seriously aside from the action sequences those movies are the artistic equivalent of a student movie shot in his apartment.

    5. Re:People don't realise by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Dude - it's astounding how much CG is used in period dramas as well (as a big ferinstance.) The PBS series Mr. Selfridge (based on the real-life, err, way-too-eccentric exploits of an American who plops a department store in London) was incredibly heavy on CG for the external shots.

      I've noticed it showing up on a lot of these shows, usually when they want to portray a city/landscape in some historical time, or to amp up battle scenes, etc.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    6. Re:People don't realise by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

      The whole 3D thing just doesn't work for me. I find it distracting, and generally doesn't add value to the movie.

      And most of the time, it looks like "hey, lets 3D this movie!" afterthought.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    7. Re:People don't realise by omnichad · · Score: 1

      A lot of the time, it is a "let's 3D this movie" afterthought, with most of these movies not even being filmed stereoscopically.

      Watch a movie like Hugo in 3D and you can see it used artistically without a gimmick.

    8. Re:People don't realise by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      3D is slightly different.

      For purely CG stuff (e.g. Pixar), I'll pay for the 3D. It definitely adds something intangible to my viewing experience. Can't speak for everyone else, of course. I enjoyed Avatar, which was filmed in 3D.

      But "post-processed 3D"? Not worth it.

      I ended up seeing "Guardians of the Galaxy" in 3D. The problem that I had was that all the human characters looked flat--like a picture painted on cardboard--whereas all the CG stuff was beautifully rendered. It was particularly bad in GotG because you had a couple of CG characters who looked great but then you put them next to the human characters and it just enhances the flatness.

    9. Re:People don't realise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People just don't realise how many practical effects were in The Phantom Menace, for example.

      That's because they don't believe in the Force.

    10. Re:People don't realise by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Avatar was pretty much groundbreaking. The visuals were, at the time, spectacular and brought you into the world. The story was a tad Pocahontas meets Fern Gully, but it worked at bringing that world to the screen.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    11. Re:People don't realise by MrKrillls · · Score: 1

      Give me the chance to see a movie in the regular 2d mode, and I'll go for that every time. 3d is lousy, and I just say no to it. Not about the surcharge, just that it detracts from the quality of movie watching every time.

      --
      Don't step on the baby.
    12. Re:People don't realise by Archimonde · · Score: 1

      What 3D is great for is giving you a sense of scale. Say character - building scale. There is a scene in Avatar when they are about to land first time on that planet and they are flying over some open space mine. There is a huge machinery doing the work and I was just blown away how you get a sense that the mine is huge and that machinery is enormous. Sometimes you get a feeling that you are kind of being there on that planet yourself.

      I've watched the movie in 2D again, but that didn't give me the same sense of scale. It was like, well watching a movie with cool CGI.

      --
      Trolls are like broken clocks. They show the truth two times a day. The rest of the day they talk nonsense.
  15. Re:Interesting post, thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're welcome! Have a nice day!

  16. It's the same reason you go to a concert... by fropenn · · Score: 1

    instead of just listening to your computer play music - the thrill of human achievement and accomplishment. When you're watching real people to real stunts, its exciting and fun. When you're watching someone's drawing of a stunt, it's boring.

  17. Morphing by Chmarr · · Score: 1

    Remember when image morphing was cool? (Like Animorphs or those cheesy effects from automan (I think)).

    And then remember when it was horrible?

    1. Re:Morphing by Thagg · · Score: 1

      The best morphing ever done was Michael Jackson's Black or White video. It was also one of the first pieces that was done, starting about four months after I wrote the morphing tool.

      The thing is, it took about a woman-year to do the work, it was really a tremendous amount of detailed effort. Once it was done, and was so close to perfect, nobody wanted to spend that kind of money again.

      --
      I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
  18. Movies == Video Games by ZipK · · Score: 1

    CGI technology and video game rendering have merged to the point that large sections of CGI-heavy films have the rhythm and look of a video game. This may be pleasing to those weaned on video games as their visual storytelling medium, but to those brought up on physical visual effects, it's distracting.

    1. Re:Movies == Video Games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Either you are complimenting video games for becoming more cinematic or you are dumping on movies for shitty plots -- which has been a problem since day 0.

    2. Re:Movies == Video Games by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Which one do you put the Hobbit movies into (specifically the HFR 3D version)?

    3. Re:Movies == Video Games by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      It's a rare medium that's done well.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    4. Re: Movies == Video Games by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Clearly you didn't see the high frame rate version. It did not turn out well at all.

  19. Related: The Return of Deep Focus? by Jonah+Hex · · Score: 2

    Best article I've read on an "everything old is new again" technique making a comeback and why, The Return of Deep Focus? (AKA Shallow Depth Of Field is not the only way...). Personally I love both Hitchcock and Kurosawa's use of Deep Focus (the article gives examples of the former) but of course once it became the "mark of cheap video recording" it fell out of vogue. Now it's making a comeback, much like practical effects are. - HEX

    1. Re:Related: The Return of Deep Focus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure, remember how successful Peter Jackson was with HFR? Yeah, me neither because nobody wants their big budget movie looking like a daytime soap opera.

    2. Re:Related: The Return of Deep Focus? by Jonah+Hex · · Score: 1

      Actually HFR is also making a comeback with James Cameron pushing it as a way to overcome some of 3D's issues with lower frame rates. He's looking at shooting Avatar 2 and 3 in 48 or 60 FPS http://www.hollywoodreporter.c... http://www.hollywoodreporter.c...

    3. Re:Related: The Return of Deep Focus? by jrumney · · Score: 1

      The narrow depth of field has gotten much worse of late, combined with excessively close up shots to make 3D scenes pop out of the screen. I find it quite distracting to have every dialog scene in a movie shot from about 2 feet away, with everything 3 feet or more back from the camera appearing completely out of focus.

  20. CGI is dead. by ledow · · Score: 1

    I am infinitely more impressed by someone performing a stunt, once, for real, after a thousand takes, by chance, with the help of cleverly-chosen camera angles, than anything that CGI can produce. Fuck, Jackie Chan movies and the like basically give you a broken-bone count in the outtakes over the credits.

    Why movies haven't lauded "No special effects or post-production - everything you see was captured on video in real-time" for the last 20 years, I can't fathom.

    When everything is fake, anything is possible, and it becomes boring and unreal.

    I'm still waiting for the Bond-like remake that features no weapons, no CGI, no stupendous car-stunts (unless someone really did them - with safety gear etc. is fair enough, but you have to have really done them).

    If I see one one "car goes up ramp and jumps something" piece of shit, I swear I'll just stop bothering to watch movies at all.

    1. Re:CGI is dead. by MrKrillls · · Score: 1

      "When everything is fake, anything is possible, and it becomes boring and unreal." Exactly. Yes.

      Not to mention frequently stupid, childish, annoying...

      --
      Don't step on the baby.
    2. Re:CGI is dead. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  21. The effects in automata by goombah99 · · Score: 2

    Here's a short youtube showing the effects in Automata. The robots were a combination of real robots and puppeteers. The puppeteers were in green suits and removed by standard green screen subtraction. In breif moments where their arms move in a complex way the arms were CGI added to the puppet robot chasis without arms.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:The effects in automata by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would they put tits on a robot?

    2. Re:The effects in automata by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Why would they put tits on a robot?

      We'll explain it when you're older.

      For me, the question is, why don't they put them on everything? :)

    3. Re:The effects in automata by Lotana · · Score: 1

      Use your imagination.

  22. Cost comparison? by Krishnoid · · Score: 2

    I thought that using CGI would be less expensive overall. Between material/storage costs, labor costs, available physical/practical vs. computer modeling/rendering skillsets, desired visual style and/or realism, time, and other considerations, are we at a sort of intermediate point before either practical or CGI becomes a clearly better choice?

    1. Re:Cost comparison? by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Depends...

      *Good* CGI can cost a mint. This is because it takes a metric buttload of time to render each frame on a rather high-powered render farm, especially at 4k resolution... enough that most studios usually just rent the time on a farm as opposed to buying the mega-CPU-intensive servers to grand it out.

      Even with top-end render engines optimized like crazy, you can expect a decent 6-core server CPU to swallow an entire day to grind out one frame (a still image) at 4k - one second of runtime will take 24 of those CPUs to get it done in a day. Oh, and if something goes wonky and a frame comes out corrupt? Time to re-render that blown frame and hope it doesn't interrupt the flow. Get the lighting wrong (say, the gamma or pixel sampling depth was off just a touch, and now it doesn't blend into the real-life scene), and you get to do it all over again.

      There is of course the artists' time - and their equipment (they usually get issued their fave multi-thousand-dollar software suite sitting on amped-up Mac Pros or similarly-expensive desktops).

      That said, thanks to AWS and such, it's probably on parity nowadays with the practical special effects guys' time.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  23. Actually, CGI doesn't really matter. by sehlat · · Score: 1

    What matters are story and character.

    The story must be engaging and the audience must empathize with the characters, or even "100% realistic" CGI is a dead waste of time and money. There are dozens of classic science-fiction movies all the way back to the 1930s whose special effects are, by today's standards, primitive, but the stories still grip the mind and heart.

    In fact, one of my personal all-time favorites had NO special effects, unless you count makeup. But the story and characters within "Creation of the Humanoids" will be with me to the end of my life. Now THAT is entertainment.

    IMO, Hollywood needs to spend more money on writers and less on CGI.

    1. Re:Actually, CGI doesn't really matter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > What matters are story and character.

      Blasphemy!

    2. Re:Actually, CGI doesn't really matter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  24. Ok, but... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    I'm all for this, really. It's easy to pick on the Star Wars prequels for egregious use of digital effects (and justified, in my opinion) but it wasn't just that. The technique was genuinely being overused in the industry, and I'm really glad to see a return to practical effects.

    That said, I have to wonder if at least part of the motivation for the return of practical effects is that the cost of digital tools and render time has gotten so low that pretty much anyone can do it. You've all seen web series and demo reels and short films and even fake newsreels that contain remarkable digital effects done for cheap. They're not wholly the domain of Hollywood and their big bucks anymore. A return to practical effects and their perhaps greater production costs may be yet another way to differentiate big budget productions from kitchen table projects.

    On the other hand, I'm so sick of the overuse of digital effects that I'll *take* that. As someone in this discussion wisely said, when everything is fake, anything is possible, and it becomes boring. That's exactly the thing.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Ok, but... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      That's true. I've seen some AMAZING homemade effects that look better than many live-action movies.

      My daughters LOVE watching Zack King on Vine and Instagram and he's putting out better digital effects than many studios these days, with almost zero budget.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
  25. Re:I think this ought to be worded a bit more subt by jason777 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yeah, did you see Ant-Man? They scanned Michael Douglas in and created a younger version. Completely CGI, but I didnt even know until I watched the special features behind the scenes. Great movie, BTW.

  26. Bad CGI is distracting, indeed by NEDHead · · Score: 1

    But it was not the main fault with the Hobbit movies

    1. Re:Bad CGI is distracting, indeed by omnichad · · Score: 1

      If you watch in in HFR 3D the CGI jumps to the forefront of problems. Live action is hard enough to get used to at 48fps, especially with closeup shots. But they really didn't get the motion right in some of the battle scenes and it just looks like a video game.

  27. CGI as make-up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I view CGI as make-up.
    It is supposed to enhance, rather than cover, a scene.

    You can make great use of special effects to enhance a scene in very subtle ways.
    Even simple edits like a basic gamma shift, or add some blue over dark areas to make them less bleak and boring, simple highlights go a long way.
    Getting RID of Lens Flare as well. Holy hell Lens Flare is the worst. The only way it makes sense is if the piece itself has someone recording from a camera and you see its point-of-view.

    Of course, just like make-up, people can abuse the hell out of it.
    You can easily take a males face, the manliest face you have seen, and make it look like a beautiful woman, just with pure make-up work alone.
    It might be neat, but it gets boring fast and over-use of it just ruins a movie.
    It's kinda like some animation that tries to splice 3D animation with 2D drawn animation. MOST people get that horribly wrong and it looks so out of place. Very few have managed to mix 2D and 3D animation well. (Futurama is what would be considered middle ground when it comes to the 3D effects in it, they look decent-ish, but still stick out as different from most scenes)

    CGI is also good for covering up some minor mistakes, or wires for holding stuff up, and other scene construction stuff like that.
    CGI just needs a good practical reality for it to be based on. (including rotoscoping or motion capture in films that use it)
    Without it, it just feels weird.
    I just remembered some awful cartoon animation. Scales off where characters had stupidly long legs, or done impossible rotations of body parts.
    VR and animation world just lack that limitation that the real world has: physics.

  28. World of Warcraft by belthize · · Score: 4, Funny

    This is why it's taken so long to make a World of Warcraft movie. They spent the last decade genetically altering babies to make them into very fast growing orcs so they wouldn't have to rely on CGI. Similar work was done with dogs, lizards and birds to create the fauna.

    1. Re:World of Warcraft by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      This is why it's taken so long to make a World of Warcraft movie. They spent the last decade genetically altering babies to make them into very fast growing orcs so they wouldn't have to rely on CGI.

      Well, what did you expect? I mean, Blizzard did promise that they would release the movie soon.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    2. Re:World of Warcraft by vuffi_raa · · Score: 1

      yeah -teenage mutant ninja turtles had the same delay.

  29. I like it, but...back off on the 3D effects by Kevin+by+the+Beach · · Score: 1

    My only issue is the excessive use of 3D specific scenes.. If a movie is being shot for multiple formats, it's a waste of time for us NON-3D viewers to watch something that was really cool in 3D on the flat screen. I bet a good 15 minutes of a multi format feature can be eliminated to the cutting room floor for us folk that watch in two dimensions..

    I'm a fan of special effects, but don't burden the story just because you can wow somebody with make believe cinematography.

    1. Re:I like it, but...back off on the 3D effects by omnichad · · Score: 1

      "3D specific" scenes are annoying to 3D watchers who like good storytelling, too. 3D is being used way too much as a gimmick instead of enhancing the story subtly.

    2. Re:I like it, but...back off on the 3D effects by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      I catch moments, especially on my kids' movies, where something visually odd happens. I'll turn to my wife and ask, "Oh, right, this was released for 3D, wasn't it?" When done poorly, it definitely detracts from the movie, just by pulling you out of it. I think she's got one or two grown-up action or horror movies that also jumped on the bandwagon in the past decade, and it's particularly egregious in those cases.

  30. Now they just need to hire writers by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

    And have the action scenes serve the script, not the other way around.

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  31. The secret truth...CGI cheaper by Yergle143 · · Score: 2

    There are many stories of film crews waiting around all day for that perfect sunset glow. Much easier to hire one guy to fix it in post.
    The parent might have mentioned that the Dogme 95 movement was way ahead of the game here and that although I would love to see an Avengers sequel directed by Lars van Trier it ain't never gonna happen.

  32. Its Dollars and Cents by avandesande · · Score: 1

    Shooting on location is very expensive and prone to unexpected costs while CGI effects are well understood- any overruns would be due to poor management.

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  33. if done right by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    That said, I happened to be watching Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade pretty recently (made before Jurassic Park, but after Aliens), and the scene where the tank falls over the cliff and explodes is pretty cringe worthy...

    1. Re:if done right by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      In Empire, they switch from stop motion to a filmed real trip/fall for a walker, and that is cringe worthy and out of place.

      I suppose it was more about getting realistic snow thrown up on impact than saving a few frames.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    2. Re:if done right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but it's only that one shot of the tank falling toward you, zooming in on the puppet's face. It looks as silly as the puppet Dick Jones falling out the window in the original "Robocop" :)

      Take that out, and the rest of the scene looks great!

  34. Biggest problem with CG isn't CG by Nemyst · · Score: 1

    I find that usually the biggest problem with CG isn't the CG itself, it's the fact that it removes actors from the scene. It's much more difficult to convincingly act when you're stuck in a green room talking to a character that doesn't exist yet, or sitting on a chair strapped to some kind of steampunk-esque machine that captures your every muscle twitch.

    We've been making significant progress in that area, giving actors more surrogates to act with, going back and reintroducing real scenery in the foreground, etc. I think that's key, because in the end if the acting is poor then the film will suffer greatly.

    1. Re:Biggest problem with CG isn't CG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find that usually the biggest problem with CG isn't the CG itself, it's the fact that it removes actors from the scene. It's much more difficult to convincingly act when you're stuck in a green room talking to a character that doesn't exist yet, or sitting on a chair strapped to some kind of steampunk-esque machine that captures your every muscle twitch.

      We've been making significant progress in that area, giving actors more surrogates to act with, going back and reintroducing real scenery in the foreground, etc. I think that's key, because in the end if the acting is poor then the film will suffer greatly.

      "Guardians of the Galaxy" had this issue especially as 2 of the main characters are totally CGI'd. The behind the scenes showed stand-ins in the green suits, the one for Groot even had a cardboard cutout of his face mounted to a pole on a body harness so that everyone else would be aware of how far up they needed to look when talking to such a tall character.

  35. problem is, using up the stock of stand-ins by swschrad · · Score: 2

    if you are shooting Die Hard 97, and you have to use real explosives and drive real cars out the back of cargo planes and onto parking ramps 5000 feet below, you run out of lookalike stand-ins for the stunts real fast.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
    1. Re:problem is, using up the stock of stand-ins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go watch some of the Fast and Furious movies. Most of the stunts that you might think are fake were actually really done.

    2. Re:problem is, using up the stock of stand-ins by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      One other issue is if you can do anything digitally, you end up with an unrealistic story because anything can be done.

      Years ago there was an action movie called "The Transporter." Great action movie with lots of great stunts. Did pretty well at the box office, I guess, because they did a not-so-great sequel, "Transporter 2."

      At one point, the bad guys have placed a bomb underneath our hero's car. So our hero drives along until he finds a convenient spot with an appropriate ramp and a crane, drives the car up the ramp and into the air, flipping the car upside down and catching the bomb with the crane. Of course, he continues the flip and lands on two wheels and continues driving while the bad guy ends up blowing up the crane but thinks he blew up the good guy.

      Pretty ridiculous, but quite easily done with CGI. So nobody asked, "should we do this pretty ridiculous thing?"

    3. Re:problem is, using up the stock of stand-ins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As has been done for the audio? Seems like every other movie these days has the Wilhelm scream

    4. Re: problem is, using up the stock of stand-ins by jsh1972 · · Score: 1

      Often multiple times per film. I take care of an invalid family member (95 yr old grandmother, pretty severe dementia) and the ONLY thing she'll watch is the LOTR trilogy... We got it for her thanksgiving '14, so she's seen all 3 hundreds of times a piece at this point. I'll be in the next room reading or messing with my rpi2 or something and out of nowhere- "EAAGGHHH!" Wilhelm scream. It's extremely jarring, always destroys my concentration on whatever I was doing. On the rare occasion I feel like watching the film (again), it always draws me completely out of the flow of the plot. We get it, audio engineers. It was funny for a time. It needs to die now, take it off life support and let it die with dignity. It's gotten so bad when I replay the scene in my mind off Fonzie jumping the shark, I now head the Wilhelm scream as he does his jump.

    5. Re: problem is, using up the stock of stand-ins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We get it. You hate your grandmother and taking care of her means you have to leave your baseme fe daysnt 'apartment.' Dude, it's a scream. Let the old lady enjoy her last days without having to listen to you bitch. You probably beat the woman and burn her with cigarettes when nobody is around. We get it. She's interrupting you playing with your toys.

      The allusions to taking it off life support and letting it die now are telling. Yes, it's time to kill grandma and let her die with dignity because she's a fan of a movie that has a sound effect that interrupts your playtime because you're mentally broken and can't concentrate while you're ignoring her instead of keeping her company. Hiding, like a coward, in another room while she sits around confused and you bitch about the sound effects that stop you from playing with your toys for a brief moment.

      Maybe if you were actually taking care of her, instead of playing with your toys, you'd not notice the sound effects. Instead, you let her sit, demented and unattended, while you play with your Pi. Good job, grandson. Do you beat grandmother often or just when the screams have finally interrupted the voices in your head enough so you can no longer concentrate on your playthings?

  36. They haven't really gotten better at it. by truck_soccer · · Score: 1

    You can see a stark difference in all movies that use CGI, and that ruins the movie because the difference is so jarring. A perfect recent example is the bear fight in The Revenant. It looks like a scene from a Far Cry game, the motion blur is so strong, the animation is obvious, and the edges are so well defined that you feel like you're watching someone play a videogame on the same screen.

  37. Cartoons by jetkust · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Overuse of CGI and unrealistic camera movements are turning live-action movies into live-action cartoons. There's a difference in your brain thinking you are seeing something real vs. seeing an impression of something real.

    1. Re:Cartoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Overuse of CGI and unrealistic camera movements are turning live-action movies into live-action cartoons.

      This. I wish directors would understand that just because you can zoom around a digital model at high speed, doesn't mean you should.

      I'm thinking in particular of shots like this one from Serenity at 2:24, which just screams "fake!"

  38. Back to basics by courcoul · · Score: 1

    I guess this further emphasizes the great merit in filming The Revenant, that cost greatly cause Gonzalez Iñarritu and Lubezki insisted in using no artificial lighting.

  39. Re:I think this ought to be worded a bit more subt by muecksteiner · · Score: 1

    Ant-Man was gorgeous. :)

  40. This is ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With CGI FX or traditional ones, one make superb, very good, good, passable, bad and hideous movies. With CGI FX one can achieve things impossible, or impossibly expensive, to achieve with traditional FX. CGI FX are here to stay, and to completely replace traditional approaches in most cases.

  41. CG leads to a loss of meaning by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

    I dabbled in a bit of acting at younger ages and have some close friends still heavily involved in theater. Movies that rely heavily on CG take away the emotion and reaction of not only the actors but also the environment. When filmed in front of a green screen, it becomes much more difficult to get lost in the character. For me, it is similar to running on a treadmill.. I lose motivation to continue going because no matter how hard I run, I still am not going anywhere.

    I'm glad movies have taken a step back from the ledge and become a bit more practical with the effects. You can never replace the impact of an actor well immersed in the character.

    --
    "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
  42. Hollywood scared by WhipITGoodER · · Score: 1

    Think about the underlying issue here. As the effects now have the ability to replace actors/actresses, it is no surprise Hollywood is freaking out about the technology. Making movies is hard. Making good movies is harder. But people on the screen contribute very little to the final image if the appropriate level of effort is applied. And that effort can be bought for way less than the 10's of millions top acting brings.

  43. Belated realization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... that anyone with a computer can do CGI.

    Hollywood's competitive advantage is in the concentration of skills, the reputations - and the sets, and the stars. Hollywood has thousands of acres of real estate devoted to "looking like somewhere else".

    The technology you can find anywhere, the skills and reputations increasingly so. For Hollywood to embrace technology that makes big-name stars and expensive scenery increasingly redundant - would be to invite their own extinction.

  44. Hollywood SPIN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hollywood loves to spin a story POSITIVE.

    Reason CGI is going away is because it has gotten TOO EXPENSIVE compared to physical SFX.

    If everyone knows it's physical, then physics takes over and errors are OK. if it's CGI, it has to be perfect--by the creators and audiences.

    This is just spin to justify lower production costs. Just look at every 200+mil pixar movie and the latest results....

  45. Re:I think this ought to be worded a bit more subt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ant-Man was gorgeous. :)

    Ant-Man is one of those few films that couldn't be done right without tons of high-quality CGI.

  46. What? The eye candy is all most movies have by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    If this trend away from using CGI also means Hollywood has more budget left for higher quality scriptwriting, then I'm all for it.

  47. Mad Max and Ep 7 were filled with CGI by DrXym · · Score: 2, Informative
    It's true that Mad Max in particular had lots of genuine stunts but it was also filled with CG - digital composition, green screening, added flame / explosion effects, matting, removal of of wires / safety equipment, CG sequences such as the sandstorm shots. Same too of Star Wars - lots of location shooting, but plenty of CG in there too, enormous amounts for all the battles, droids, creatures.

    It might be better to say that particular directors are better at striking a balance between traditional and modern filmmaking. They know what bits look best filmed for real and which bits should be done later in a computer. J J Abrams can afford to build an external millenium falcon set (used about 4 times in the movie) but he still digitally sticks in the surroundings every time they run up and down the ramp.

    1. Re:Mad Max and Ep 7 were filled with CGI by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I don't think you're quite understanding the CGI that is being complained about.

      Hint: Every action film contains CGI, every scifi film too. What people complain about however are scenes that are either 100% CGI (think end of the last matrix film), digital characters (think most of the early Starwars franchise), and scenes which are obviously just two guys dancing infront of a green screen, or worse yet, two guys in motion detection suits in front of the green screen.

      Mad Max had CGI. But it had next to nothing compared to most action scifi movies of similar budget.

    2. Re:Mad Max and Ep 7 were filled with CGI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The published break downs of Star Wars scenes reveal absolutely huge amount of CGI, starting with the scenery.

    3. Re:Mad Max and Ep 7 were filled with CGI by brewthatistrue · · Score: 1

      Agreed.

      Here's a pretty good youtube video on how much CGI there is in films we don't tend to think of as CGI.

      Why CG Sucks (Except It Doesn't) by RocketJump Film School

      People tend to get mad about CGI only when they notice it.

      Also, many of the CGI movies people dislike just weren't very good movies.

      When well used, CGI and practical effects are mixed and melded.

      Case in point: mad max fury road, lauded for its practical effects (as seen in linked video above).

    4. Re:Mad Max and Ep 7 were filled with CGI by DrXym · · Score: 1
      The point is Mad Max had LOTS of CGI. I provided one link but there's virtually not a single part of it which hasn't got CG in it. The rock city at the beginning - CG. Crowd replication - CG. Any time there are projectiles, ropes, chains or other things being thrown around - CG. Sandstorm scene - CG. Explosions and many of the collisions - CG. Canyon in latter part of movie - CG. Digital colour balancing - CG. Night / dusk effects - CG. Robot hand - CG. Many vehicle interior shots - greenscreen CG.

      It's true that many directors go totally overboard with CG but Mad Max and Star Wars Ep 7 aren't the counterpoint. They have enormous amounts in there too. They just have directors who are a bit more discerning about its use, knowing that live action and live actors are necessary to make the CG convincing. And they have the budget to hire the best digital effects companies when they need it. And something else...

      The problem with many movies that use CG is not the computer graphics but sense that something is impersonal, uncanny and weird. It's okay to use CG but the laws of physics should remain consistent, and what humans are physically capable of. And you can't get an actor to produce a decent performance when he's saying his lines to a tennis ball on a stick. That's why many CG movies fail. If Mad Max & Ep 7 succeed it's because they remembered this. They still have a lot of CG though.

    5. Re:Mad Max and Ep 7 were filled with CGI by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Quite. Lots of straight lace movies have CG in them and people didn't even notice it. Bad CG sticks out when it's done on the cheap and fails to impart the scene with characteristics that feel "real" - natural body movements, lighting, shadow, texture, inertia, gravity etc. Even the way that the camera moves and swoops around can make it feel wrong.

  48. Re:I think this ought to be worded a bit more subt by thoromyr · · Score: 1

    Heh. I noticed as soon it was on the screen. It wasn't *terrible*, but it wasn't that good, either. To be fair, I don't think anyone I was with noticed.

    Its possible the reason it jumped out at me is that I do rendering work. Once you start working with textures and seeing how they come out it really sensitizes you to what is fake. There are rendered images that when I first saw them years ago I couldn't tell the difference from a photograph. Now I can glance at them and -- while appreciating that they look very nice -- see that they are clearly rendered.

    CGI has come a long way, that's for sure. But I think we are still a long way off from rendering flawless images. Even physical based renders (which, on paper, sounds great because it is using accurate physics rather than a biased render engine) have fundamental flaws. To use a trivial example, edges are perfect -- it doesn't matter how perfect the engine is, you are still limited by your 3d mesh. Similarly, if your render engine can perfectly represent a substance indistinguishable from physical reality it will look too good, too clean.

    Its the same thing as working with physical models: its fairly easy to make something *perfect* but quite another to make it seem *real*. One of the biggest give aways in a movie with models is that things are too clean and too precise. It takes effort to dirty them up in believable ways.

  49. How about a story? Please? by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 1

    If you have a good story, everything else falls in to place.

    I remember talking to people about The Matrix. They went on at length about the special effects. The story (if any) was incidental. I concluded it had no story at all.

    The opposite extreme from my recent experience would be something like the old British spy show The Sandbaggers. Most of it is people talking on the phone and arguing in offices. And it's utterly spellbinding...

    ...laura

  50. Good CGI is good, bad CGI is bad... by Dusty101 · · Score: 1

    As noted by a lot of the other posters, it depends on whether the CGI is done well or not. There are two examples that particularly stand out for me:

    1. I saw a breakdown of the Tyrannosaurus Rex attack sequence from the original "Jurassic Park", which captioned which shots used CGI and which used animatronics, and I really wouldn't have been able to tell without the captions.

    2. In a recent documentary about ILM, there was part of an interview with the director of "Iron Man", Jon Favreau. He said that he'd been very emphatic about using physical effects wherever possible, but that there was one scene which was a close-up of the suit, and he wanted to be very specific about how the studio lights reflected off it as the camera &/or the suit moved. They iterated on the shot a whole bunch of times, and in the end, the shot was also rendered digitally, and even he really couldn't tell which was which any more. And this is someone who obviously lived & breathed the imagery of that film for months.

    On the other end of ILM's CGI scale, there's the end of "The Mummy Returns"...

  51. Re:I think this ought to be worded a bit more subt by muecksteiner · · Score: 1

    Nitpick: a physically based renderer would of course also be free to use physically correct lens models. Which remove any "perfect edges" you might have had with a pinhole camera.

    And at least in the movie industry, there are entire teams that take care of the "too perfect" look. With "Fast and Furious 7" being an obvious example: the Weta crew are pretty good at that sort of thing.

  52. One of my favourite applications of CGI... by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

    One of my favourite applications of CGI is in the Les Miserables movie. You'll struggle to spot it, but the actors sing with clip on microphones, so that the performance can be captured in one take, with long, medium and close cameras and microphones. Visible microphones were then airbrushed out. (This, at least, is what the Sound on Sound article on it said.) The trouble with CGi is that, what is the state of the art 10 years ago is within reach of a hobbyist today. But non-CGI special effects that take great effort still take great effort.

    --
    John_Chalisque
  53. Shakycam next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, how long until Hollywood turns away from Shakycam? I can't wait.

    1. Re:Shakycam next? by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      But what will all those poor camera operators with Parkinson's do when that happens?

      --
      Eat the rich.
  54. 14 years ago I answered questions on /. about VFX by Thagg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's fun re-reading the questions and my answers on Slashdot back in 2002.

    Back then somebody asked how to get into the field -- I said it was a bad idea (and it was at the time!) -- and perhaps that's true again. I left the biz a couple of years ago.

    That said, as people note about Mad Max: Fury Road just about every shot of complex films is a VFX shot. Mad Max had insanely complex, aggressive, and unique practical effects, but there were still 2,000 VFX shots -- and there had to be!

    When I started in VFX back on movies like Terminator 2 I told my friends that the one of the big points of VFX was safety. You can support stunt people with heavy cables, and remove them in post -- or replace the heads of stunt people with the lead actors so that they won't be in danger. This is still true, and will always be true.

    One of the most interesting films nominated for VFX this year (not mentioned in the article) was the spectacular Ex Machina. Hundreds of beautiful VFX shots, that were a vital part of the story. Among the things that makes that movie special is that the VFX team was integral to the design of the film -- the budget was so small, that they had to work together with the director, set designer, etc to come up with a way to tell the story beautifully and inexpensively. The VFX budget was only $1.5M, probably 2% of the VFX budget for Avengers: Age of Ultron (not nominated!) The VFX Oscar winner a couple of years ago, Gravity was similar in that respect, the VFX team helped plan, and then shoot, every shot -- and then shooting the movie was incredibly quick. Perhaps this will happen more in the future of VFX, I hope so -- as it allows the VFX team to participate more intimately in the filmmaking.

    Another thing that's not mentioned in the article is that a lot of filmmaking is about cost. VFX is these days often a heck of a lot cheaper than practical effects. Not just the cost of building things, but the time it takes to shoot them (a typical movie these days costs on the order of $300K/day)

    CG VFX are not dying, not by any means. They may get to be more seamless (I hope so!) and more about telling the story and less about flashy hoo-haw. Every significant budget movie has a huge VFX component, and that's just not going to change.

    Again, reading my questions and answers from my relative youth were interesting -- and foreshadow a lot of what happened in the last 14 years. One of the questions, though, was curiously wrong. I had thought that patents would rip through the industry, as it did to early effects work back in the 60's and 70's, but that didn't happen. What did happen was the studios have found ways to convince foreign (mostly) governments to finance VFX work in those countries, this has pretty much wiped out a huge portion of VFX in the US.

    A bit of sadness is that my old company Hammerhead Productions that I started (and discussed in the article) is closing down after 21 years...but most of the questions and answers bring a smile. Thanks Slashdot!

    --
    I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
  55. Both movies are full of digital effects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so your whole premise makes no sense.

    At best, you might have a point that digital effects are being used in a more sophisticated and realistic manner, since you apparently didn’t notice that both Mad Max Fury Road and Star Wars The Force Awakens have a ton of CGI.

    Also, both of those movies are sequels to movies that were released before CGI and the art direction is done in such a way as to provide continuity. And yet in both cases, they still used a ton of CGI. So that goes against your point as well. If Hollywood was turning away from digital effects, why are so many digital effects used in movies that are made to look like their 1980’s prequels?

  56. Marketing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Meh. Claiming that you do more practical effects over CGI in your new movie is just a marketing ploy to counter the "anti-CGI" voices.
    The blockbusters of today contain more CGI than ever - it is just that most of it is good enough that people can't see that it is.

    And by the way, Jurassic Park did not contain that much CGI. The proportion of CGI in that movie relative to practical effects was minuscule.

    1. Re:Marketing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > And by the way, Jurassic Park did not contain that much CGI. The proportion of CGI in that movie relative to practical effects was minuscule.

      Almost half the dinosaur shots were CGI - 6 minutes out of 14 total.

  57. It's all about suspension of disbelief by fluffynuts · · Score: 1

    The allure of the movies (extending to other formats like television and online media) is that they offer the consumer a temporary reprieve from the dullness of their own life. It's about bringing a story to life and convincingly so. The moment the media stops convincing the consumer, it's lost it's lustre.

    As many have noted, it's not about the CGI per se. It's about bad CGI breaking the immersion that the consumer is seeking in the media. Even when a practical effect is a little primitive, it's very obviously still real, so there's a little more leniency from the audience (but that too can only go so far).

    Age of Ultron is a classic example of bad CGI losing the audience before the story even had a chance to get out of the gate. That intro scene hurt my head.

  58. Best of both worlds... by BrianJohns · · Score: 1

    Personally I believe that digital effects are one of the most important tools to come into the hands of film-makers in decades if not since the development of color film. Chances are they are used in places you'd have never guessed. Not just in action blockbusters but in comedies, suspense thrillers and even court room dramas in ways that you'd never imagine. Want to add a set piece or prop in post? No problem. In the old days prior to digital effects and cg that would usually mean either reshooting or very creative editing with what footage you had. This question is a good one for discussion but really cg effects are not on their way out and most certainly not cg characters even those composited next to real life actors (until they're able to make robots that can pass themselves off as human beings during action sequences or as background extras. Then I suppose we'll see a question on slashdot like: Are Real Life Extras In Film Really Needed? Hopefully people at that time will come running to their defense). Digital effects are just another tool in the hands of the artist. They are indeed very powerful and it has been demonstrated that one can most certainly make a film entirely composed of cg and still draw tears from us (try the movie Up on for size in that department). They are another brush in the hands of the artist and would an artist discard a brush they use so often in ways most aren't even aware? That's kind of like saying we should replace human actors with cg ones because people are generally smelly, difficult to work with, have egos, take time off, have health issues and sometimes get themselves into a fix of some sort. People love seeing the human drama play out in front of them on a screen in every way imaginable with characters they like and characters that they don't like and all sorts of great devices for the story telling medium. Sometimes those devices are cg effects and they embellish the final frame in ways that we aren't even aware whether it's a set or prop addition, adjusting the lighting, changing a performance subtly or adding a splash of color foreground to a black and white background as in Pleasantville. Sometimes bold. Sometimes subtle. Most of the time undetectable because it isn't always about making the perfect explosion or a melting liquid metal robot from the future. In the end its about drawing people to see movies and giving them a great show. Its about the art form and the vision of making that movie and bringing it from the minds of the people who make it to the screen. One of the things people like to see on the screen is people. If we don't see people you can be darn sure that it will be something that by way of anthropomorphism we can be fooled into conceiving as one. A talking teddy bear. A talking robot that cries. Fish live life and talk like people. Cars that actually have a life of their own too. Heck if Tom Hanks can imbue an inert basketball (a basketball whose performance was entirely without cg) with life and fool us into believing it to be his best friend, then its not a far leap of faith to take with a talking fish bowl or any other household appliance. Leave that feat to cg artists and the most important element: the voice performers. The cg characters themselves are a masterful work but they need that spark of human life to give them just that. Cg just makes all of that more palpable and it is an art form all its own. But we're talking about cg being a replacement for traditional effects and even whole sets and locations. Certainly that is determines by the persistence of vision of the crew and cast and the budget. I'd say that the best of both worlds is the way that things will go and we'll likely see more and more of it. After all, they've been doing it for years on the set of shows like Star Trek Voyager, Deep Space Nine and Enterprise. The movie Tron was the first feature film to mix cg animation and live action footage. It reminds me of how everyone was in a huff that real musicians would be replaced by the advent of MIDI and drum machines. Here we are fo

  59. Wood by Type-R · · Score: 1

    Oh sure, I tout my wood and all *I* get is a restraining order...

  60. Re:I think this ought to be worded a bit more subt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you kidding? The CGI Paul Walker looked completely obvious and the only reason it even looked halfway OK is because Cody Walker already looks a lot like Paul, so they only needed to slightly modify his face.