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Microsoft Releases Its Deep Learning Toolkit On GitHub (microsoft.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Microsoft is moving its machine learning Computational Network Toolkit (CNTK) from its own hosting site, CodePlex, to GitHub. They're also putting it under the MIT open source license. The move marks an effort to make it easier for developers to collaborate on building their own deep learning applications using the CNTK. Under the CodePlex license, access was restricted to academics only, and it was wholly targeted to that audience. Now that it's opening the project to everyone, Microsoft hopes to attract a greater number of developers, and a wider variety as well. This follows similar releases from Google and Baidu.

53 comments

  1. Did anyone by Billly+Gates · · Score: 0

    Read this as Microsoft releases big learning rootkit?

    1. Re:Did anyone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No

    2. Re:Did anyone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They released that last year. They called it Windows 10.

    3. Re:Did anyone by HiThere · · Score: 1

      One always needs to beware of that, especially from MS. I'd need to check, does the MIT license protect you against patent infringement suits based around the released code? If not, then I'd suspect a trap, even if not a rootkit.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  2. This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Machines doing people's jobs, without pay or vacation or sleep. Millions shuffled to the unemployment line and poverty.

    1. Re:This could cost jobs. by bondsbw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is inevitable. Our society needs to figure out how to deal with it, instead of inciting fear that the world is doomed because of it.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    2. Re:This could cost jobs. by lorinc · · Score: 1

      This is inevitable. Our society needs to figure out how to deal with it, instead of inciting fear that the world is doomed because of it.

      This is why the universal basic income is inevitable at some point. It either that or massive riots to protest the organised poverty.

    3. Re:This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Culling. That's an option too.

    4. Re:This could cost jobs. by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      Call me when software can dig ditches and build roads all on it's own.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if we let the ignorant, propagandized, terribly destructive Conservatives get their way. Automation can mean we have to do less work to have a good quality of life, or it can mean that the rich get richer, and workers starve to death. It's our choice.

    6. Re:This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And use apostrophe's properly.

      Oh, bugger!

    7. Re:This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We won't need to cull anything.

      By the time super AI comes about, it will already know that humanity is on the brink of becoming a post-scarcity society.
      Any AI, even a power-hungry one, would want that because it means survival.

      We are already on our way to a space mining society now.
      We have a few companies and governments getting behind efforts to mine them precious space rocks.
      One company (Planetary Resources) already has a test module up there. In fact, I am sure it has already went through its 90 day test run.

      In 50 years time, we will probably be at the beginnings of seeing some returns.
      By 100, we wil be well on our way to seeing reasonable returns.
      By 200, we will be living in space and well on our way to an actual space age.
      By 30, I will be dust and never get to experience space piracy.

    8. Re:This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you work for the milkman's union? Would rather travel across an ocean in a wooden boat or a Boeing 787? Previous generations toiled away for the efficiencies we enjoy today. We do the same thing for the generations to come.

    9. Re:This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's start with Anonymous Cowar

    10. Re:This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eventually there would only be one person and their robots.

    11. Re:This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then there would be zero people and some robots.

    12. Re:This could cost jobs. by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      Maybe never "all on its own" but with a massively reduced number of people required.

      It used to require a lot of people with shovels.

      Then it required fewer people with bull dozers.

      The big earth movers are already moving to semi-autonomous. Next step is a single 'drone' operator in AC working on the stuff that needs a human to do while a few other dozen in the fleet manage themselves automatically.

      http://www.cat.com/en_US/artic...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    13. Re:This could cost jobs. by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      Newsflash: there's not enough need of that to occupy that much of the population, and with a missing middle class current capitalism doesn't work anyway.

    14. Re:This could cost jobs. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      You are leaving out the millions that starved to death in the wake of automation. (It didn't happen in one year, but try thousands over a hundred years.) Some times were worse than others, and it occasionally hit a peak. Check out the history of the Enclosure Acts. Or the Luddites. The modern weavers (in US/Europe) do much better than the weavers of that time, but they aren't their descendants. Too many of them died.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    15. Re:This could cost jobs. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      P.S.: The Luddites are also significant to attend to if you want to observe the way history is managed by the wealthy to make them look good...or at least not totally evil. It is rightly said "History is written *for* the winners". And much of how it's managed isn't through acts of war as such, but through economic pillaging. (And if you don't think that's happening wherever you live today, you've got blinders on.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    16. Re:This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You miss the point.

      Every machine needs people to work on them, you need people to set them up, you need a large number of workers.

      but they need to be skilled, not zero skilled drooling types.

    17. Re:This could cost jobs. by lorinc · · Score: 1

      Every machine need less people working on it than the number of people needed to perform the task in the first place. That's automation: allowing fewer people to perform the same amount of work, including the guys needed to maintain the machines.

      If it were different, there would be no automation going on. But there is, and it's steadily moving massive amounts of people to unemployment.

    18. Re:This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is inevitable. Our society needs to figure out how to deal with it, instead of inciting fear that the world is doomed because of it.

      Stop breeding?

    19. Re: This could cost jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebodies gotta create and maintenance these machines. Ohhhh wait, I see. We are going to start building machines that build the machines that test the machines built by the machines that built them.

      It's machines all the way down. We are fucked. Where are you when we need you Minsky?. RIP.

    20. Re:This could cost jobs. by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      I just bumped into Soren Kierkegaard in the elevator. He told me machines will never be able to make choices or value judgments since both are predicated on agency/subjectivity.

      Call me when a bot wins a Turing competition without shenanigans.

  3. More developers? by darthsilun · · Score: 1, Interesting

    ..., Microsoft hopes to attract a greater number of developers, and a wider variety as well.

    Good luck. I've worked – professionally, both directly and indirectly – on a couple different open source projects. They all had (and still have) lots of users.
    But growing the list of active developers from outside the core cadre of devs? Next to impossible.
    If they're open sourcing it to get more active development, I expect they've got a tough row to hoe.
    I'm more inclined to think they're just not funding development and this is a desperation move.

    1. Re:More developers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't, I think this is purely a PR move. They gain nothing by keeping the toolkit to themselves but opening it up might attract a few developers to their toolchain vs Google's.

    2. Re: More developers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many devs have learned the hard way that contributing to open source projects can often be a waste of time and effort. Even if you coordinate with the project's leaders, and meet or even exceed their standards, often they'll just reject your work in the end. Sometimes they won't even explain why. Since it's impossible to judge the risk beforehand, many devs assume the worst and choose not to even attempt to contribute anything more than doc typo fixes.

    3. Re:More developers? by SethJohnson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they're open sourcing it to get more active development, I expect they've got a tough row to hoe.

      I don't think they're putting the source code out there so people will improve these libraries. They've got the payroll to hire armies of people to work on this. I suspect Microsoft wants to see greater adoption of this code by seeding an ecosystem of projects that are utilizing it. Kind of like how they've posted Windows 10 iOT for free. Different, though, because it's not open source, but they want people to use it so their platform stays relevant in a quickly evolving technological landscape.

    4. Re:More developers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But growing the list of active developers from outside the core cadre of devs? Next to impossible.

      Also, Microsoft has a long history of pissing and telling developers that it's raining.

    5. Re: More developers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. I've contributed a bit over the years. Nothing major, just fixes for minor bugs and such. Waste of time - might have well just coded and piped my code straight to /dev/null. And you know what? I get why. The lead developers probably get swamped with "helpful" amateurs of varying skill levels and sorting the wheat from the chaff requires significant effort for minimal benefit, so unless you're gods gift to programming and/or have something really, really significant to give it makes perfect sense that slight improvement number 1,328,339 would be ignored,

  4. Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is revolutionary. Microsoft is the #1 software company in the world and them using github and using it to release such important and ground breaking software is a shot across the bow of old school companies like Google who dont really do much for anyone but themselves. The balls in your court Google.

    1. Re:Wow. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      You know Google did the same thing four months ago, right?

    2. Re: Wow. by Redbehrend · · Score: 1

      He's a troll notice the AC lol

    3. Re: Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, anyone who doesn't blindly follow the "Google is good, Microsoft is bad" agenda on slashdot is a "troll"!

    4. Re:Wow. by the_povinator · · Score: 1
      I have personal knowledge of this, as I know the guys who developed this toolkit, and I used to work in their group at Microsoft Research. I have also released open source software from MSR.

      To some extent this relates to the regime change that happened after Ballmer left. Microsoft previously shunned open source and the Linux ecosystem. Now they are much more open to it, and are shifting to Linux for (e.g.) their GPU computing. Apparently they are also rewriting a lot of the CNTK code to work better with Linux. (Technically, C++ should work well with both Windows and Linux, but with things like threads there can be differences in the way you do things).

      They likely shifted this from the standard MSR license (which only permits research use) to the MIT license mostly in order to increase adoption. Even many academic users do not like research-only licenses because if you become dependent on that type of software it closes the door to later commercialization and some types of collaboration with industry. I myself am an example of this-- previously I did not consider using CNTK because of the license. (In the meantime I have built my own toolkit with similar capabilities, and will likely stick with it now because I understand it).

      The group wanted to convert to a more open license for a while but were probably waiting on management and lawyers. They are probably upset that it didn't happen sooner, because in the meantime Google released TensorFlow, which will have taken away a lot of the potential market.

      --
      The .sig is dead, and I believe I had a hand in killing it.
    5. Re:Wow. by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      "n the meantime Google released TensorFlow, which will have taken away a lot of the potential market

      Did it? While one on the main researchers on NN keeps working on Theano, not to mention everything else that exists, I have my doubts.

    6. Re:Wow. by the_povinator · · Score: 1

      The point is that TensorFlow addresses basically the same problems that CNTK does well-- e.g. recurrent architectures like LSTMs, and good GPU support.

      --
      The .sig is dead, and I believe I had a hand in killing it.
    7. Re:Wow. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the <sarcasm> tag.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  5. Otherwise Known As by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    I though their Deep Learning Toolkit was named Windows 10 - wait, who's learning what?

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Otherwise Known As by bn-7bc · · Score: 0

      No win 10 is rhe Deep Tracking Toolkit (DTT) :)

  6. Meta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Given the recent deluge of source codes for deep learning toolkits, it seems like someone should train a deep learning toolkit to create deep learning toolkits.

  7. Re:I'll save the haters some time by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

    Skynet?

  8. I'm Clueless, But... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm pretty clueless about AI, the reality of which does not come close to my Hollywood-like perception of what it might be.
    Hwoever, when I see companies that historically have gone out of their way to keep their proprietary secret sauce private and still do, all make concerted efforts to give away their magical AI technology, I am more than a little suspicious that their AI tech is crap and has no value.

    1. Re:I'm Clueless, But... by njnnja · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily, for 2 reasons. First, math is math, and most of the building blocks of machine learning are pretty well known. What is valuable is how the building blocks are assembled and set up for a given problem. Second, without large amounts of collected data, even knowing the exact setup of somebody's model isn't particularly valuable. So a company can open source a lot of good general optimizers and other functions without giving away any "secret sauce."

    2. Re:I'm Clueless, But... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      AI isn't going to be close the Hollywood AI for a long time. Say 20-30 years. It requires too much computer power.

      OTOH, there are specializations that can totally upset society that will probably be showing up a lot sooner. People can dis self-driving cars all they want, but they are going to cause social upheaval. Probably as much as did the switch from horses to cars, and over a shorter time-frame. And that's just *one* of the applications on a near future track. And while mobile AI is heavy, interconnected AI isn't. So Siri, etc., will be getting a lot better, and showing up in a lot more places. And there will be other *specialized* applications that we just don't see yet.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  9. MS's Deep Learning toolkit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is pretty obvious that they have yet to use it themselves.

  10. Re: Meta - Caveat Emptor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would a giant software house release their most secretive and most talked about intellectual property source code, risking to undermine billions of their future revenues from AI? Perhaps the reason is trivial, there are no billions in revenue. AI modeled with neural networks deliver results resembling the human brain reasoning, yet it suffers from several major problems. One problem is ghosts, when images of cats are misclassified as dogs, if someone changes just a few pixels per image. Another problem is the sheer size of the training set. It needs to be huge, millions of images, manually curated by humans, correctly classifying all images into dogs and cats. Imagine the effort and cost, thousands of times greater for humans involved into training, than for computers. The biggest problem with deep learning AI is energy efficiency cost. Human brain can tell a dog or cat image using just few wats of the brain energy. AI requires server farms using megawats for the same job. Seems that the Deep learning AI software might be the dead-end after all. So let's play a messia donating AI code back to open source and to academic research where Deep learning was born in the last century, and encourage science folks to sort out the mess. If they can't, there is at least someone to blame. Otherwise stock owners can start asking inconvenient questions about AI money spent by giant technology ventures hunting the AI ghosts. Chaps, are you telling me that you have built a cat detector for a million of dollars?

  11. SO MANY FUCKING ASIANS AS MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    https://github.com/orgs/Microsoft/people

  12. Codeplex full of Microsoft pretend open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Part of the reason Microsoft is moving this project to github and the MIT license is because people have gotten wise to their old tricks.

    Take for example, the Singularity RDK. The license for Singularity RDK can be found here: https://singularity.codeplex.com/license. Microsoft played the game that if they posted it on a site that is titled "Project Hosting for Open Source Software" then it must be open source. However, even the second line of the license of "Non-Commercial Academic Use Only" is a violation of the Open Source Definition.

    Microsoft employees had told me that the license issue was still a work in progress and Singularity RDK would eventually be released under a real open source license. However, it has been nearly 8 years now so my guess is the Microsoft will never release Singularity RDK into the open source and is satisfied with using Codeplex to misconstrue their fake licenses as "open source." So, for any project they want to make clear to everyone that they really truly intend to open source, they have stopped using the tainted Codeplex and MS-PL family of licenses.

    Bottom line question is, why would we trust a company that hasn't lived up to it previous commitments?

  13. Complex by popstack · · Score: 1

    If MS wants to target a non-academic audience, this will live or die on the quality of the toolkit samples.