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US Asks VW For Electric Cars (news.com.au)

US authorities have asked the German carmaker Volkswagen to produce electric vehicles in the United States as a way of making up for its rigging of emission tests. German newspaper Welt am Sonntag claims the US Environmental Protection Agency is currently in talks with Volkswagen with the aim of agreeing on a fix for nearly 600,000 diesel vehicles that emit up to 40 times legal pollution limits. The paper, which gave no source for its report on Sunday, said the EPA was asking VW to produce electric vehicles at its plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and to help build a network of charging stations for electric vehicles in the United States.

33 of 250 comments (clear)

  1. This is good because of network nature by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is a very good solution. Rather than just try to slap VW with a fine that they'd shrug off, this would use the resources to help push the entire car market into a better environmental situation and one that is less dependent on fossil fuels as a whole. Electric cars are a technology which works better when there are more electric cars and more charging stations. This is essentially a networking effect. So the resulting push by having another major manufacturer make more electric cars will be substantially more positive than simply fining them.

    1. Re:This is good because of network nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Kinda have to agree.

      Who ever thought of this was pretty astute in gauging the environmental impact of the VW fiasco, and working towards ameliorating it in a way that not only gets buy in from VW and improves the air quality in a way better than the original regs.

      The only hiccup is if this turns into a gimme to VW as a way to ensure compliance.

    2. Re:This is good because of network nature by haruchai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When you break the law and get caught, the gov't gets to tell you a lot of things you can & can't do.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    3. Re:This is good because of network nature by frnic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I am not sure what planet you live on, governments tell companies what they can and can not do all the time, and should. DO you have seat belts, air bags, catalytic convectors? Does your refrigerator not have a locking dock, does your new house have lead based paint, do you kids toys have lead based paint, do you drink clean water? I could go on for hours, but you would simply say they should do any of that stuff, people should take care of painting their own homes and processing their own water...

      But, whatever works for you.

    4. Re: This is good because of network nature by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 2

      The laws that VW broke are not "arbitrary".

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    5. Re:This is good because of network nature by saigon_from_europe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The best solution would be to make VW to fix the mess and to put VW managment to jail. Hefty fine would probably hurt only VW employees anyway. Jail term would hopefully learn big fat cats that rules are to be obeyed.

      --
      No sig today.
    6. Re:This is good because of network nature by legoleg · · Score: 4, Informative

      Elon Musk had the same idea:
      http://news.slashdot.org/story...

    7. Re:This is good because of network nature by bugs2squash · · Score: 2

      That was my first thought too, except that it's probably a good thing for all concerned if the total market grows and pushes demand for charging stations etc.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    8. Re: This is good because of network nature by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm good with VW paying the fine, just as I had to do when I broke the speeding & stop light laws.

      I think the government should either have them pay the fine or build infrastructure in the USA. Anything else sounds like a double fine. Of course VW could turn this to their advantage and into a win - making me think of how the record companies instance on DRM helped make iTunes a dominant player in the downloadable music market (maybe this is not the right analogy, but this is the thought that pops into my mind).

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    9. Re: This is good because of network nature by Christian+Smith · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm good with VW paying the fine, just as I had to do when I broke the speeding & stop light laws.

      ... Of course VW could turn this to their advantage and into a win - making me think of how the record companies instance on DRM helped make iTunes a dominant player in the downloadable music market (maybe this is not the right analogy, but this is the thought that pops into my mind).

      You must be new here. We explain computer issues with car analogies, not the other way round.

    10. Re:This is good because of network nature by Christian+Smith · · Score: 2

      Right. A proper solution is that they take the 600,000 cars back and provide something that respects environmental norms, while providing at least the performance/quality/durability/confort/safety of the original product, and then also pay for the environmental impact.

      Seriously? Slightly hypocritical considering the average american car pollutes more than the average VW diesel car.

    11. Re: This is good because of network nature by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm good with VW paying the fine, just as I had to do when I broke the speeding & stop light laws.

      I think the government should either have them pay the fine or build infrastructure in the USA. Anything else sounds like a double fine. Of course VW could turn this to their advantage and into a win - making me think of how the record companies instance on DRM helped make iTunes a dominant player in the downloadable music market (maybe this is not the right analogy, but this is the thought that pops into my mind).

      A correct remedy for violating the emission standards would be a fine. But this is more than violating emissions. People purchased these vehicles because of the supposedly clean nature of the vehicle along with the high mpg. Of course bringing the cars in line with the emissions will kill the mpg. VW new this was the case and as such this is fraud. They should be required to refund the purchase price of the vehicles to those who purchased them for breach of contract and intent to defraud. That would be in addition to the fine charged by the government for violating emission standards.

      Put differently, VW intentionally misrepresented the product they were selling to the public. This, by definition, was a scam and they should be held accountable and make whole the people they scammed.

    12. Re:This is good because of network nature by Smidge204 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Except it wouldn't be a new product.

      VW has been teasing an all-electric Golf for a few years now, including auto show appearances, but has been dragging their feet bringing it to market. The 2016 e-Golf is only available at select dealers in a handful of states.

      They *have* the product, they just aren't selling it 'cause their bread-n-butter is internal combustion. So the choice is a few billion in fines, or a few billion in getting serious about selling electric cars. ...and the fine won't do anything to offset the environmental damage done, which is what the requirements were for in the first place. It's not only an equitable solution, it's a logical one that actually fulfills the purpose of the law that was broken.
      =Smidge=

    13. Re:This is good because of network nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You'd rather someone give the government money? That shit would be squirrled away in to some crony's pockets before you could count it.

      This is a clever solution that is befitting the crime.

      Fuck people the government actually figured something out one fucking time? And you're gonna bitch? Thats like smacking the dog on the nose when he finally does do it outside.

    14. Re: This is good because of network nature by Ichijo · · Score: 2

      This is true, but one could make the claim that those emissions standards aren't arbitrary because they were whatever was politically possible at the time.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    15. Re:This is good because of network nature by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Proud to not be a Real American(tm) then. Back when I put an exhaust system on my 240SX, I could have put a dump pipe on it. It was registered in one of the two California counties where there's no recurring registration requirement. I got a cat anyway. They make high-flow ones. Sadly, they are not legal for OBD-II vehicles...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re: This is good because of network nature by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think that's irrelevant. Whatever standards where in place by the Powers That Be here in the US, those are the standards. VW broke the rules in a calculated way. These cars, if not fixed, will have negligible resale value and if fixed, still a lesser resale value. They were sold to customers under dishonest false pretenses (redundant?) and these customers deserve compensation up to and including a full refund.

      VW must be punished for this dishonesty in a way that discourages them from ever doing this again (as well as discouraging other from doing this as well), and a fine does not cut it because a fine is simply "the cost of doing business". What the US is asking is something that will not be forgotten by VW.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    17. Re:This is good because of network nature by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      Back when I put an exhaust system on my 240SX,

      I had a '90 240SX and it was a blast to drive. Fortunately in Chicago, where I lived at the time, there is no requirement for cars manufactured in 1995 or previously to meet any emissions requirements or to even be tested.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    18. Re:This is good because of network nature by zieroh · · Score: 2

      A truly bad idea. If VW's heart is not in it they will only do the minimum to keep the government off their back.

      Don't be so sure. The largest auto makers are required to produce electric cars for the California market, and all of them are actually doing a pretty good job. Even Fiat, who bitches about it incessantly, managed to make the Fiat 500e, which is a hoot to drive. Not all of the electric cars in the California market are necessarily exciting, but none of them actually suck.

      --
      People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
    19. Re:This is good because of network nature by zieroh · · Score: 2

      They could develop a vehicle just for the US market, that was cheap to build and market. I am thinking maybe something like an affordable version of the Smart car?

      They already have. It's called the eGolf, and it's already for sale in California.

      --
      People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
    20. Re:This is good because of network nature by BasilBrush · · Score: 2

      "Everything" isn't illegal. But fraud is, that that's one of the crimes that VW committed. And in no small way.

    21. Re:This is good because of network nature by KGIII · · Score: 2

      *sighs* No, no we're not. They're arguing with an idiot who may (or may not be) self-identifying as a Libertarian. The important part is that they're quite probably retarded. Very few Libertarians are Anarchists. Some are minarchists. I'm actually damned near a Socialist - albeit for very different reasons, on the scale. Quite a few of us are similarly minded. Corporations have rights but they're somewhere below that of the individual and the commons. They are afforded certain protections and rights and have an obligation to uphold their end of the social contract.

      Ayn Rand was an idiot. Rand Paul is not a Libertarian. Most of the vocal people utilizing the moniker are actually ashamed Republicans. Oddly enough, when you look at their beliefs and the Libertarian ideology, it's hard to see where they could possibly even be wedged in there. I can assure you, I'm far more concerned with your liberty, your ability to make best use of your freedom, and ensuring we do what we can to maintain a functional society with reasonable protections, opportunity, and upward mobility. I really couldn't give two shits about the health of a single corporation, life finds a way.

      And no, no... I've been a member of the party for nearly 40 years. We used to be the "loony left." Somehow, everyone got confused, and now we're assumed to be the anarchists or the folks on the right. We might have been stoned but I'm pretty sure we gave you a brochure. You did get one, right? If not then I can probably find you one.

      In all seriousness... I'll get you a brochure - even if I gotta write the damned thing myself. Or, you can just read the first four or so paragraphs on Wikipedia and get a good idea of what a Libertarian might be. It's not a bad article, I am kind of surprised. Some Libertarians are, indeed, Anarchists. You can safely ignore them. They're just noisy but they're not allowed to use the fine china. It'd be antithetical if we told them that they didn't belong or took away their microphone so it is what it is.

      In all seriousness, not even the majority of Libertarians are retarded. Oh, we have our share of fruitcakes and retards, don't get me wrong. But they're actually just the noisy people and they get the most attention. Most of us aren't followers of Rand, Republicans ashamed to use the name in polite company, or even teens. We actually understand the ideology, the precepts, and have varied ways to reach those goals or work towards them - except for our vocal set of nimrods. Sorry for the confusion.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    22. Re:This is good because of network nature by davester666 · · Score: 2, Funny

      This is TOTALLY WRONG. The gov't must get out of the way of the free market, as it is ALWAYS self-correcting. VW would eventually come around and produce clean-burning diesel vehicles on their own, just through normal market forces, or they would go out of business. It's a fundamental law of nature. Like gravity.

      Everybody knows this.

      Once Trump get's elected, this will get fixed up real good.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    23. Re:This is good because of network nature by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      The best solution would be to make VW to fix the mess and to put VW managment to jail.

      Given that the people ultimately responsible for the decision are not Americans and not living in America, how do you propose to do this?

    24. Re:This is good because of network nature by pablo_max · · Score: 2

      Hefty fine would probably hurt only VW employees anyway.

      Are you joking? I can't tell.
      The "fine" and following lawsuits which are being proposed are actually enough to bankrupt the VAG. This does not ONLY impact VAG (VW Audi Group). There is a massive supply chain which goes into car production. There is a fare numbers of VWs made in the US, did you know that?
      Did you know that a great many companies in the US produce the electronics for VW and Audi?
      What about the dealers? Do they not employ people? VAG employees almost 600,000 people world wide. That is a LOT of lives which rely on VW for their well-being. Do all of those people deserve to suffer because the management cheated?

      Also, what is the US government going to do with the money VW gives them? Buy more bombs to drop on brown people? Will that somehow help you?
      Why not have them spend the money on something which actually make the situation better in the long term?

    25. Re:This is good because of network nature by Smidge204 · · Score: 2

      I wonder why that is?

      Because of corporate inertia, mostly. There's too much money to be made in the status quot and the risks to breaking out into a new market are not clear enough for some.

      For others, however, it's clearly the way forward. Nissan in particular has bet a lot on electric cars being a sizable market segment and have been making good progress despite being one of the first to really stick their necks out.

      Tell me, do you have an electric car?

      No, but then again I've owned my current car for about 10 years and it's still in great shape. I've never advocated junking a perfectly good car for new and shiny.

      However, my next car will absolutely be electric. It's a question of when, not if.

      Would you buy a Tesla without the ability to charge it anywhere?

      If I didn't have the ability to charge an electric car, I would think twice about buying *any* car - because that would mean I don't have access to electricity, which implies I don't even have a place to live. So I guess the answer to your question is "No" but not for the reasons you wanted it to be.

      I see electric cars constantly, and I do see e-Golfs around the place.

      This statement conflicts with things you've said earlier. So where you being a disingenuous dickhead previously, or are you lying now?

      On the other hand someone cheated on regulations. Are you saying your regulations and regulatory bodies have no teeth?

      The teeth are in forcing the manufacturers to act a certain way, like producing a product that meets specific requirements.

      You are now simultaneously complaining about a regulatory agency not having teeth AND that same regulatory agency using its teeth to force manufacturers into compliance with the law. Can't have it both ways, bub.
      =Smidge=

  2. Re:Nuclear Power by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

    Utterly impractical. Want to die from unshielded radiation?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  3. Only electric in test mode by dfn5 · · Score: 5, Funny

    As it turns out, the new VW electric cars will only be electric in test mode.

    --
    -- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
  4. EPA Settlements are corrupt by Kohath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The EPA of corrupt settlements in legal cases. If crimes were committed, why should VW (or anyone) get away with them by funding leftist feel-good projects?

    Here's hoping that the next administration starts "settling" these cases for an apology and a big donation to the NRA. Then maybe people will start paying attention to how corrupt this process is.

    1. Re:EPA Settlements are corrupt by Gojira+Shipi-Taro · · Score: 2

      That would require a Republican adminstration, which at this point woudl be Trump or Cruze. Fuck that shit. Either Hitler 2.0, or the living embodiment of Nehemiah Scudder.

      I wont' accept either of those results.

      --
      "Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
  5. Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining by Smidge204 · · Score: 3, Informative

    The typical electric vehicle battery pack - a lithium technology - uses no rare earth metals.

    Don't confuse it with NiMH cells which often do use rare earth metals.
    =Smidge=

  6. Re:US offer meant to ban VW form fuel-cell electri by WindBourne · · Score: 2

    Only an idiot would think that Fuel Cells have a chance.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  7. Re:VW asks US to resume rare earth mining by Firethorn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That may be true but I suspect the motor uses plenty of rare earth metals. While the GPP may have where those metals end up in the car wrong they do end up in the car somewhere.

    Your suspicions are most likely incorrect, unless you count copper as a rare earth metal. Most serious EV vehicles use AC motors. This is explicitly true for Tesla. No rare earths are required for it's motor.

    FTA: Unlike the DC brushless rotor, the induction rotor has no magnets – just stacked steel laminations with buried peripheral conductors that form a “shorted structure.”

    It's the hybrids that are using DC motors that need magnets, preferably rare earth ones.

    An electric motor can certainly be made without rare earth metals but it will be heavier and less efficient.

    Not when you want performance, or go over a certain performance level:

    Thus, the induction machine when operated with a smart inverter has an advantage over a DC brushless machine – magnetic and conduction losses can be traded such that efficiency is optimized. This advantage becomes increasingly important as performance is increased. With DC brushless, as machine size grows, the magnetic losses increase proportionately and part load efficiency drops. With induction, as machine size grows, losses do not necessarily grow. Thus, induction drives may be the favored approach where high-performance is desired; peak efficiency will be a little less than with DC brushless, but average efficiency may actually be better.

    Diesel engines rule the road, rail, and sea.

    Speaking of rails... Have you heard of the "Diesel-electric transmission"? They've been in nearly all locomotives for many decades. We've had diesel electric ships since 1903, and their use is becoming more popular.

    The concept is simple enough. Rather than having a mechanical gearbox, you hook your diesel engines up to a generator, then run power lines to electric motors that power the wheels. The diesel provides the energy, the motors provide the power for movement.

    Well, let me know when electric tractor/trailers are on the market.

    Consider yourself informed.

    Until we get batteries that can compete with fuel oil and diesel fuel on weight, volume, and cost we will continue to see electric vehicles as novelties and penis size compensators.

    Not really, the weight and energy density of diesel is not necessary for all applications, and batteries have (recently) become cheap enough that electric is finally cheaper than diesel - at least in the applications most suited for them. Tesla is looking to cut costs in half again for their batteries, allowing them to break into the market a step down from the luxury section.

    Saying that electric won't be suitable for semi-tractor trailers anytime soon is like saying that jet engines aren't suited for use because they can't reach the moon. Long haul tractor trailers are the most demanding common application I can think of, the most suited for diesel. Long before they go electric, it will be highly practical and economical for 99% of consumer automobiles to be electric. Including trucks such as UPS delivery vehicles.

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    I don't read AC A human right