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Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter To Back Apple With Legal Filing In FBI Case (recode.net)
An anonymous reader writes: Google plans to follow Microsoft in throwing its legal support behind Apple in its increasingly contentious dispute with the federal government around the iPhone connected with the San Bernardino terror attacks, according to sources.
At a congressional hearing on Thursday, Microsoft's legal chief, Brad Smith, said that the company plans to file an amicus brief next week in support of Apple's resistance to helping the FBI hack the phone. Google will deliver its own supporting brief 'soon,' according to sources familiar with the company.
At a congressional hearing on Thursday, Microsoft's legal chief, Brad Smith, said that the company plans to file an amicus brief next week in support of Apple's resistance to helping the FBI hack the phone. Google will deliver its own supporting brief 'soon,' according to sources familiar with the company.
Now departing
If it would only take a team of 5-10 Apple employees a couple weeks to break into that phone, it means the data on those phones is about as secure as some md5 strings stored in a database. In other words, not very secure.
Who's really got the power corporations or government.
I'm not sure that she's not a bigger threat than these terrorists.
Microsoft may be behind Apple, but Bill Gates isn't.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3559...
Can't say I'm a fan of his rationale, he of all people should know better.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Apple owns all this stuff, we're merely tenants of the computers and software we have been granted licenses to use.
If the FBI has a warrant to search my apartment, can they force the landlord to personally assist them in the search? If the landlord doesn't show up, will the feds kick in the door then arrest the landlord for not helping?
We fucking get it. Let's stop repeating this shit over and over, 5 articles a day, like a fucking parrot. It's getting old.
Having wetted and raised their fingers, guess who has now determined which way the wind of public opinion is blowing.
I suspect the direction of the wind is related to the realization that within a year, President Trump/Clinton may be relishing all the available phone access.
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
"Boycott Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and Twitter until Apple unlocks the phone."
thanks,
D. J. Trump.
Funny thing is, I already do boycott them along with Apple and Intel.
What if, the FBI already has the knowledge and talent to reverse the iPhone down and snag the UID?
Then this would all be a show right?
Maybe these companies publicly against this measure of forcing a company to build a system to break their own devices security are doing so to "prove" to the populous that their telemetry and other data they gather from us is "safe" from such intrusion in their hands?
-stares at Microsoft-
How's that for a run on sentence.
Fun with conspiracies!
I'm sorry, you're suggesting that the outcome of this case somehow hinges on Apple's tax-shelter strategies?
Protip, kid: The only "karma" that actually exists is the Slashdot score.
Call me anything you want, I ain't gonna buy this 'corporations standing up for the common people' crap
I've been in this field since the 1970's and the way I look at it is more like the following ---
Big Bad Corporations, being part and parcel of the big brother, already have backdoors built into devices they sell to the public
From time to time big brother will stage dog and pony shows designed to sway public mindset
This time they use the Islamic Terrorist attack on Christmas Party in California as the backdrop, claiming that they need to 'crack some encryption' of an iPhone belonged to one of the Islamic Terrorists, in order to find 'terrorist information'
And to maximize the impact, big brother stages it out in the open - pitting FBI/CIA/NSA on one side and the big corporations on the other side
This whole thing is nothing but a farce -
Big brother already got the backdoor handed to them prior to the release of iPhone to the public ( else why the POTUS is not allowed to use iPhone as a communication device?? )
Their main aim is to sway public's mindset into believing that the iPhone (and all the other communication devices) they use are 'safe' from big brother's prying eyes, plus the additional benefit of fooling countries such as Russia / China / Iran into letting their own top level people using the same devices, so that NSA/CIA could more easily eavesdropping on them
Stop being fooled !
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Normally, the US government is easily bribed but this dispute involves the judicial system and a department that can't be captured by regulatory oversight (since it doesn't ask private businesses how to uphold the law). The world has never seen the nation of corporations oppose a modern government before so it is interesting times. Can guns and jails really work against 'too big to jail' corporations that can collude to exclude the government from their services. Casting-out all government employees would break the prime directive of corporations (profit-seeking) but with the US government becoming more intrusive (to the corporations), those corporations may have to protect the social contract (independence and privacy) first.
Tim Cook should step down immediately.
That's like the lock company saying F.U. to the cops with a search warrant. F Apple.
I couldn't care less what happens tbh. Apple devices, incl. google's and ms's are so laden with spyware and backdoors it's pathetic. What is needed here, honest to god, is a nation wide campaign to encrypt all basic communications. Mostly voice calls, all email transactions, and all txt/im protocols both ways ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Until that happens everything will remain a "dog and pony show". No one trusts these tax dodging money grubbing corporations to begin with. If you think this pony show will change shit you are wrong.
All the corps whose services and devices you should never use.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
This is why the US needs to make sure everyone can program. We have too many techies with money thinking they know better than the good old boys.
Re 'a nation wide campaign to encrypt all basic communications"
Considering most UK and US political leaders did not have any issues with VPN use or more https, thats going to be interesting.
The 5 eye nation's security services seem very happy for people to keep feeling secure using https and VPN's.
Any code thats a standard seems to be of no challenge to the US and UK once its consumer ready. The only magic is in keeping people trusting their US branded technology. Keep talking, texting, having gps on that phone with a sealed in power supply. The brand is so secure, just like before, during and after PRISM.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
We already offer up our young to Planned Parenthood abortion centers. We don't value our young to start with, so why complain if some terrorists want to eat them?
It could flow that way. If the court system decides in the FBI's favor, I would then simply move the entire corporation out of the US. That seems to be the only sure fire method to avoid this sort of silly bullshit coming out of the US government these days.
Why skimp on some taxes when you can forgo them all ?
The court order asks apple to produce the compromised firmware, load it on the phone and then hand the phone to the fbi. From there the fbi will extract the firmware and use it on any other 5c or compatible they want to crack. And it will leak.
It Apple hacks up the passcode code they can also add code to limit the firmware to this one particular phone. Once digitally signed the FBI and black hats could no more make this work on a different phone than they could have hacked up the passcode code themselves. Apple's digital signature prevents any tampering at all. There need not be any threat to any other 5c.
The real problem is that if one judge in one case can compel Apple to provide such technical assistance then any judge in any case can also do so. The government's claim this is a one-time thing is bogus.
Oh oh looks like the industry is bushing back against the government. Looks like it's time to create another terrorist attack to make the industry look like they are the bad guys. I know what I'm suggesting here is purely conspiracy but I do believe there is more here than what meets the eye.
six to ten Apple engineers and employees dedicating a very substantial portion of their time for a minimum of two weeks, and likely as many as four weeks.
Given that that is a legal document for court it is likely to be full of exaggeration and misdirection in order to frame things in a manner that Apple wants. An actual engineering document would say something quite different.
For example there is no need to input the passcode electronically, through the lighting connector presumably. Assuming 5 second per try you only need 14 FBI intern hours to try all 10,000 possible passcodes.
As for the two weeks of that team's effort. Highly, highly, padded. Certainly includes design document drafts, code reviews, a complete round of QA testing, etc as if this were to be an iOS update for tens of millions of paying customers. Plus there is the unneeded functionality mentioned above that does not need to be designed, written, tested, etc. An experiment on a single device in a lab can skip much of the normal iOS update procedures. Having worked with attorneys on just this sort of thing, telling a hostile party how much effort something will take, they will be going with the former to maximize the perceived effort to frame their argument as they desire. This is how things work with respect to legal documents.
Moreover, Apple cannot simply remove a few lines of code from existing operating systems.
When attorneys write the above they literally mean removing three lines of code. If Apple had to remove 20 lines of existing code they would say their statement is true because 20 is not a few. And if Apple had to add 50 lines of new code to bypass existing code they would say their statement was true because they are adding not removing. Seriously, attorneys pull this kind of crap.
Frankly, his quotes are him backing the FBI. He disputes Apple, says that they can unlock just THIS phone. He's absolutely siding with the FBI on this.
There is a difference between saying that the FBI is technically correct that Apple could provide updated signed software/firmware to get past the passcode on this one specific phone, and saying that the FBI should have Apple do this. The former is likely a technical fact. On the 5C the passcode delay is likely implemented in patchable software/firmware, as is enabling the wipe on too many passcode failures. Apple could add code to the software/firmware delivered to the FBI to lock this update to this one particular phone. There would be no general purpose tool to unlock any 5C or similar phone. Apple's digital signature would prevent FBI tampering with this restriction, just as Apple's digital signature prevents the FBI from tampering with the passcode software/firmware in the first place.
Have you read what the court order to apple says? Actually says? I have read the actual court order.
It says:
1) It will bypass or disable the auto-erase function.
2) it will enable the FBI to submit passcodes to the subject device for testing electronically via the physical device port, bluetooth, wifi, or other protocol available.
3) it will not purposefully introduce any additional delay between passcodes attempts beyond what is incurred by hardware
4) they are to provide a signed iPhone software file that can be loaded onto the device and run from RAM without modifying the iOS installation on the actual phone, the user data, or system partitions on the device's flash memory
Source: http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/SB-Sho...
So yes...they are required to allow for electronic entry of the passcode. And they have to write the software in a way that hasn't been done before... without touching the flash memory on the iPhone. You can not run iOS on the phone "from RAM".
This is absolutely a new piece of software that they will likely have to start with. Much more complicated than just "removing a few lines of code".
I think this issue puts us at the crossroads for the U.S. How this issue shakes out is going to determine the course of many very important issues in the future with regards to civil rights. Personally, I think that if Apple is successfully strong-armed by the federal government into doing what they want, it'll have a very chilling effect on the future of civil rights, privacy rights, and maybe even human rights in general in this country, and perhaps all over the world. Personally, I don't want to have to live in a world where there is literally no privacy whatsoever. We're already too close to that state for my liking, and I'm afraid that if this goes the wrong way, we'll be headed down that road with no way back.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
My stock in Alcoa thanks you
Since Apple does not want to do the work for the government... how about the court order Apple turn over all source code to the Government and then the government recompile the firmware?
No. The FBI would not limit this modified version of the code to a single device. **If** this modified version is to be created it is Apple's duty to its customers to do so to ensure that his modification runs only on a single phone.
In two years after legal proceeding, Mr. Timothy Donald Cook, former CEO of Apple Inc., is executed for various crimes, misdemeanors and felonies and Crimes of Treason and Crimes Against Humanity.
Awesome...
Make no mistake, they are lining up behind Apple on this because if they don't the FBI will come after them next. It could just as easily been an Android phone or a Microsoft phone or a Facebook account that the FBI wants to get its mitts on. And once that door is open it will never close again.
The FBI could have chose to negotiate with Apple about this privately but they chose to take it public. Why? As Rahm Emanuel famously once said "never let a crisis go to waste". The government is once again using the excuse of "terrorism" to take away individual freedoms and rights. This is not just about getting into one iPhone. This is about getting into ALL phones. It always starts like this and little by little our freedoms erode.
Even if the FBI gets past the lock screen all of the data on the phone is encrypted separately. It will be useless to them, assuming there is anything useful on there in the first place. We don't know that. The FBI doesn't know that. Nobody knows that. For all we know there is nothing but Angry Birds on that phone.
But let's just suppose that we give the FBI the benefit of the doubt and let them crack the phone. How is that going to make us any safer against terrorists? It's the same deal with the NSA. Heck, the TSA for that matter. Gigantic waste of fucking time. Maybe if these idiots would spend less time bickering with the CIA I might cut them some slack. But they can't because they are Federal drones, programmed to engage in political infighting, waste, fraud, and general dick-headery.
I used to do consulting work for the Feds. Every place I went was more or less the same. The managers were almost uniformly stone cold morons. Whose bosses were politicians that wouldn't know efficient business practice if it kicked them square in the nuts. I went in hoping to change things for the better. I left vowing never to return no matter how much they offered to pay me. It was a shock something akin to someone that gets their first hospital bill. You know it's going to be bad but you have no idea until you experience it for yourself.
People also tend to forget that Apple does legally avoid taxes where possible, but they are the #1 or #2 tax payer in the US. No other organization or person pays more or much more since over the past few years occasionally XOM goes a bit higher.
However , they still have to do business in the US so they would be subject to US laws wherever they went and they would still have to pay US taxes on all of their US business...
I think its funny how Bill Gates is on the opposite side of the fence from his own companies.
Or, you know, maybe they're just going after low hanging fruit, and plan on going up the ladder as the opportunities present themselves. Governments play the long game. They don't have to worry about mortal issues.
"Oh, we finally broke into the phone and this guy had a secret VPN tunnel to the final boss of ISIS, who we also found out has a giant child porno stash, and also is responsible for several late term abortions, you citizens better hand over all your keys so we can get 'em"
Aluminium just ain't good enough
It's a question of understanding who your adversaries are and what your goal is.
For example, the UK is trying to bring in new laws requiring ISPs to spy on customers and keep logs of their activities, to be turned over the local government, Trading Standards, the police and various other bodies on demand. A VPN is highly effective at frustrating this kind of spying, because all the ISP can see is a VPN connection. It still leaks some metadata, such as times when the connection is active, but it's vastly better than having every site you visit and every service you use logged and handed over on request.
If you are worried about GCHQ then yes, you need to take further precautions. But as basic protection against the bulk of the abuse, a VPN from a reputable company is quite effective.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
..but how about paying your damn taxes?
It's getting boring with all these posts about this subject.
Further more, it shows that a big percent of the readers of this site has little connection with reality/public. It has been argued over and over again here which threat this action from FBI poses to the security to all iPhones. All is seen in black or white - either it is secure or not. It's a boolean thing for you.
I am sure this is technically right but you look at things from the wrong end and from a view disconnected from the public.
This isn't an technical question. It is a legal question and a political question. Hence, it isn't boolean. It isn't right or wrong. If you treat this as an question of right and wrong and secure or insecure, then you have already lost. It is a total lack of connection with reality to hold that position. This is in essence a political question and political question is almost never right or wrong.
The fact is that polls have shown that a majority of the US:ians side with FBI. So this is a losing battle. Either you will loose now in court or you will loose later in congress. Taking this fight will only make you lose greater. The public doesn't care if all iPhones becomes insecure if this one is hacked. They don't understand the issue. Condescending telling them that they are wrong and high pitching yelling about the threat to security if this iPhone is brooken wont change their mind. It will only level the way for further laws in the future that for sure will make ALL phones insecure.
The question here is not if Apple helping FBI makes their phones insecure. It is if you want laws that forces Apple et al to do what FBI want. Apples way is leading towards the later. The public doesn't care, they want the terrorists to loose. They still believe in FBI and NSA. Resisting here only make the loss bigger in the future.
Apple, Microsoft, Google and Facebook all want to protect your privacy, from everyone but themselves.
We don't need perfect security, just good enough to make the barrier to entry for government that they will only spy on us when they "NEED TO", instead of when they "FEEL LIKE IT".
Since 9/11, American deaths by terror have averaged about 12 per year worldwide. That puts terrorism right up there with lightning strikes.
Even if there were a 9/11 class attack in the US every year, it wouldn't hold a candle to drunk driving deaths. -- but drunk driving deaths don't make the news because they're so common. It's the fallacy of the news cycle -- to be national news it has to be rare. More common threats of tragic death don't make the news because they've become so blase.
If we're going to have our civil rights watered down, it should, at the very least, be because of a real threat. The courts should be asked to set aside the news reports and demand that the FBI quantify the reality of the threat compared to normal everyday issues. If apple is forced to create this app, the app and it's ilk are going to creep into everyday use by law enforcement and other entities -- here, Russia, China, Iran, Syria and pretty much every dictatorship you can think of.
Would you consider it justified to force Apple to create this app and set this precedent to investigate a drunk driver?? Even though a drunk driver is far more of a threat to you and your family? It's time to put this whole terrorism hysteria into proper perspective. We shouldn't continue to allow it to be used to nibble away at our freedoms until there is nothing left -- especially for a 'threat' that is more of a PR issue than a statistical reality.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Apple could add code to the software/firmware delivered to the FBI to lock this update to this one particular phone.
No they can't.
They could lock an update to "the set of phones having a certain piece of identifying data that can be read by the firmware". The question then is what piece of identifying data to use. There's a tamper-proof unique identifier burned into each chip that would be ideal for the purpose -- except that they don't know it, if they did they could construct the 10,000 possible decryption keys without using the phone itself.
There are other serial numbers (IMEI, etc) that are unique by convention, but are not tamper-proof. If you release a digitally signed update locked to one of those, and the FBI wants to read your phone next month, all they have to do is clone the terrorist's IMEI onto your phone and your anti-brute force protection is gone.
The apple brief is available here: https://cryptome.org/2016/02/u...
Ted Olson (solicitor general to the United States under Bush) is on-brief.
Why can't FBI just break open the iphone, yank out the SD card, duplicate it to a virtual disk, and attempt to decrypt and mount that?
What is a "fair" amount of tax? As far as I know, they are complying with the laws as written. Why would they voluntarily pay more than they need to? Most citizens don't intentionally do that, so why would a company?
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
I'll call you what you are. An idiot. There is no deliberate backdoor in iOS. If there was the FBI wouldn't be having this public hissy fit.
Sarah?