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Silicon Valley's Tech Employees Are Getting Nervous (vanityfair.com)

An anonymous reader quotes an article on Vanity Fair: Private tech companies are feeling a contraction in Silicon Valley. The funding that venture capitalists have thrown at start-ups is dwindling, in small seed rounds and mega-rounds alike. There's a new postmortem written weekly about a start-up that's run out of cash and shut its doors. Start-up executives are sobering up, realizing that their companies actually need a path to profitability. Now, not wanting to be stuck on a sinking ship, tech employees are thinking about the bubble, too, as they plan their career moves.

255 comments

  1. HIGH ANXIETY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Get Nervous!

  2. GOOD. by Thud457 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Give those special little snowflakes a taste of what everybody else has been living with for the last eight years.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:GOOD. by convolvatron · · Score: 4, Insightful

      sure, maybe the snowflakes deserve some blame. i mean who wouldn't want to bathe in money in
      exchange for working on something trivial like an instant messaging service that doesn't scale or an
      ad distribution network.

      its just that they were so smug and self important about it

      but really, the blame lies in the investment community. they get to bathe in alot more money, and
      ostensibly their job is to direct some fraction of the collective social resources towards efforts that
      will further enrich themselves, and indirectly society as a whole. at least that's my guess as to
      what this whole 'weath creation' narrative is.

      except that they dont seem to be very trustworthy, seems like we get dutch tulips all the time. loans,
      electricity, tech, loans, tech, tech.

    2. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give those special little snowflakes a taste of what everybody else has been living with for the last eight years.

      +100

    3. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This mostly applies to the new crop. The oldsters from the dot-bust era know full well there is no New Economy, but the ones who have come here since seem to have guzzled that Flavor Aid without realizing it. They have all invested heavily in lame stock options, blue-chip, 401(k), and huge mortgages; they are in for a world of hurt, especially since the oldsters are pre-spooked and ready to sell most assets to keep from losing everything as they did before.

    4. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As much as I completely agree with you, for the love of god put that tired meme to bed. All it does is make me think of old people with coffee-stained teeth having heart palpitations and whipping their "yougin's"

    5. Re:GOOD. by Aighearach · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it is funny people automatically assume that it takes a "bubble" to cause this.

      Venture Capital management strategy is to run each startup so that it has a less than 1 in 10 chance of surviving. They usually target 1/14th or so. They want to maximize the size of the ones that succeed, not the percentage that succeed.

      People go to work for a startup but don't know that, they should learn about who they work for before taking a job IMO. They just figure they're special and the world should be fair to them, even if fairness would call on them to understand their own part in it.

      There is no bubble, because there isn't extra money getting invested. Duh. And most startups are supposed to fail. It is the system. What a dumb story. Also true: if you work experience is just at failed startups, you get harder to hire because those companies are seen in the market as having different culture than the more traditional businesses that care about surviving. And most tech jobs are in other places, not just in one small part of California. For people with non-startup skills, there is even still usually a worker shortage.

    6. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give those special little snowflakes a taste of what everybody else has been living with for the last eight years.

      Fifteen, if you weren't an asshole banker, mortgage broker, or realtor during the real estate bubble.

    7. Re:GOOD. by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Only downside is, most of these kids will come breezing into our communities (outside of Silly Valley) and compete for the same jobs.

      While at my end it's no big deal? I can see a lot of developers in places like Seattle, Portland, Austin, et al getting nervous all the sudden as the recruiters stop soliciting the locals as much as they used to.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    8. Re:GOOD. by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Give those special little snowflakes a taste of what everybody else has been living with for the last eight years.

      Apparently you don't have facebook. My Democrat friends post another fake graphic every day showing how the economy is doing just *great*, better than ever! and everybody has a job and Obama has saved us. Except for Bernie Sanders supporters, who say Obama did a great job in recovering the economy but the rich people are making life bad for everybody.

      By the way, everybody now also has health insurance! Yes, because the IRS will fine you a couple thousand bucks if you don't - which somehow means everybody has it. Don't ask how to get from point A to B there.

    9. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I strongly suggest you do some research for yourself on how the Federal Reserve system works. It is not a coincidence that the investment by venture firms nearly perfectly correlates with the velocity of money.

      You may also consider refreshing your understanding of basic microeconomic principles. There is no such thing as a worker 'shortage'. This is a myth spread by the employers who prefer to hire at substantially below-market salaries. It is always the perspective from the demand side of the equation that prices are too high and shortages exist, but reality is that we live in a universe of scarce resources and cannot have everything we desire without paying the market rate.

    10. Re:GOOD. by buddyglass · · Score: 1

      I haven't felt it, aside from my IRA taking a big hit. Then again I'm in tech and located in another hub (not Northern California).

      Maybe you're in the wrong profession / geography?

    11. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Funny

      My Democrat friends post another fake graphic every day showing how the economy is doing just *great*, better than ever! and everybody has a job and Obama has saved us.

      My Tea Party relatives in Idaho send me emails about how terrible the economy is with 92 million people out of work, how black women will cut off the heads of white men with guillotines and black men will rape white men at FEMA camps, and Donald Trump will save us from our sins. Another day in the right-wing echo chamber.

    12. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you don't have facebook.

      Apparently facebook does not have you.

      There, fixed it for you. Cheers.

    13. Re:GOOD. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Most people don't know anything about economics. Even economists don't really know that much about economics--something I realized when I started looking at actual modern economic theory and found only naive observations and general rules with no understanding of mechanism.

      Take a look at the job creation narrative. We've seen all kinds of talk about things like trickle-down economics (which actual economists know is bullshit--let's be fair: it's pundits and politicians who believe that crap), leading to this ideal where you give businesses income tax cuts and they create jobs. ... How? Even a cursory examination of market economics in a macroeconomic context says that's nonsense--enough nonsense that you can check for the fallacy of common sense and verify that, yes, the sensible conclusion *is* sensible and the one about trickle-down is ludicrous.

      Businesses aren't charities and don't create jobs out of excess profits just so some bloke can get by. Common sense; but this is not sufficient because common sense is often wrong and stupid.

      Businesses don't pay wages.

      Every product has a cost, which ultimately comes down to wage-labor: in aggregate, the shelf price of a product is its wage-labor cost plus some profit margin. You pay your employees's wages, plus payroll tax, plus benefits; if you charge less than the fraction of these wage-labor costs involved in making a product, you run at a net loss, and go insolvent. That means the minimum sustainable price--the price the consumer must pay--is wages. When GM negotiates for 100 million tonnes of steel per year for 10 years to make cars, the steelmaker goes back to multiple coal and ore suppliers and does the same, and everyone starts competing by lowering big profit margins closer to *and* *never* *less* *than* their costs--which, down the whole supply chain, comes down to squeezing out the aggregate profit margins and bringing the price of steel closer to the cost to a vertical monopoly owning the mines, fuel supplies, and all production mills. It can't go any lower.

      You can't supply a product consumers can't afford, which means the consumer base making up the product's market has to be able to pay all of the wages involved in making, moving, and selling the product. The manufacturing wages have to be paid; the transportation wages have to be paid; the logistics wages have to be paid; the retail wages have to be paid. All kinds of taxes are involved. After that, you slap on some mark-up that a sufficiently-sized consumer market will tolerate (and can afford) and you make a profit. If the consumer can't afford it, none of those jobs come into existence.

      So we have senators talking out one side of their mouths about "Job Creation", and out the other side they're talking about levying sales taxes (a particularly destructive way to artificially raise the cost-basis of a product to the consumer). We have Social Security OASDI applied to the broad consumer base as a 12.4% income tax--6.2% levied on your paycheck and 6.2% levied on PAYROLL (holy shit that's daft)--rather than as a dedicated flat or progressive income tax. They find every way to destroy jobs while talking about the need to create new jobs.

      These same people start talking about how they'll get us all free college so we have the ability to go find or *make* jobs for ourselves. They talk about small businesses and the American Dream, and draw up a narrative about how jobs come from hard work and dedication, and not from capturing the limited supply of consumer money.

      It's not that they're all evil conspirators trying to distort and manipulate our economy; it's that they don't know, they don't understand. They think they have it right; they're just wrong.

      When someone tells you small businesses are failing like crazy, think about where jobs come from.

    14. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3

      There is no such thing as a worker 'shortage'.

      After the dot com bust, I saw a study that the IT industry will have a critical shortage of skilled workers from baby boomers retiring and Southeast Asian countries stop exporting their workers by 2035. I went back to school to learn computer programming and get my technical certifications. I got out of a dead end job in the video game industry and got into the IT industry. I'm looking forward to making more money over the next 20 years as the shortage becomes a reality.

    15. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Give those special little snowflakes a taste of what everybody else has been living with for the last eight years.

      +100

      I see your +100 and raise you another +10^2...;)

    16. Re:GOOD. by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This, right the hell here.

      As an aside, I've found that during the interview with a startup, you *always* begin discussing the business' long-term plans, discuss their financials, discuss their profit strategy, and learn enough to understand the answers... doubly so if you're not getting any stock (I go for cash/salary anyway - worthless stock is worthless if the company goes tits-up). If they get all nervous or their answers start getting all buzzwordy, end the interview there and go look somewhere else, unless circumstance says you have no other choice.

      I've lost count of the times when I interviewed at some startup that tried to sound like The Next Big Thing(tm), and everyone runs for cover at the very mention of even the minor question of "How much revenue do you project over the next five years, and what is your strategy to improve it?"

      ( The funniest was when one "IT Director" replied to that very question with "Why should you care? You're just orchestrating the servers?" Why was it funny? Because the look on his face was priceless when I told him that "Well, I won't blindly slave away for some random VC chump, good luck finding someone stupid enough to work for you, and the interview is now over. Good day, gents.")

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    17. Re:GOOD. by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      Small businesses always have a high failure rate, even in a boom. Often it is the same evaluation; they take loans that mean if they fall below some profit projection, they go out of business. But if they grow as well as they imagine, then they grow faster, quicker. If you don't "leverage" (read: borrow) then you're seen as some sort of bumpkin. And it is true, you'll only grow slowly without taking on debt. But you also aren't at inflated risk of going out of business. If you're in the black you can just shrink and survive in most situations where your projections or growth attempts don't work out.

    18. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to the capitalist system and all the lies of the "free world".

      If you vote Hillary, there will be more of the same fun. The 1%ers already run a boatload of scare stories about Trump, because their nice corrupt franchises might be threatened a bit. They need Hillary to win.

      And they are way too stupid to read+understand history books, otherwise they would accept Trump.

    19. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are still not understanding the terms you are using. Technically, shortages exist for everything.

    20. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This mostly applies to the new crop. The oldsters from the dot-bust era know full well there is no New Economy, but the ones who have come here since seem to have guzzled that Flavor Aid without realizing it. They have all invested heavily in lame stock options, blue-chip, 401(k), and huge mortgages; they are in for a world of hurt, especially since the oldsters are pre-spooked and ready to sell most assets to keep from losing everything as they did before.

      Pretty much everyone but the people inside it have known that this has been DotCom 2.0 the entire time. For a while now I've had to double-check the date on news articles to be sure that I wasn't somehow looking at an old one from 1999-2000.

    21. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3

      You are still not understanding the terms you are using.

      I based my technical career around an expected shortage based on well-defined demographics in the long-term future. Not a perceived shortage to suppress wages by hiring managers in the short-term future.

    22. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the area I'm in, there is a worker shortage in software development. There is no option to hire people below, at, or above market rate. There simply aren't enough workers with the necessary skills in this area.

      Shortages exist, and it doesn't always have anything to do with the willingness to pay for something. Sometimes what you need is just not available at any price.

    23. Re:GOOD. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Funny

      its just that they were so smug and self important about it

      I am sorry to disappoint you, but I live and work in the valley, and I have seen no signs of the contraction described in TFA. My smugness has not diminished.

    24. Re:GOOD. by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      I have the opposite attitude: I would not work for a startup if they do not offer stock or options as part of the deal (and not the kind that needs to vest and are void if you leave, i.e. the kind that they can screw you out of if they want to, like they did to many people at FaceBook). If I think the company has little future, I would not want to work for them anyway. But if they hit it big, it'll be partly due of my hard work (and believe me, you *will* work hard in a startup that's taking off). And in that case I'll want my payday as well.

      But in general I agree: you should treat a job application as an "employer application" as well; it's a two way deal. Unless you don't have the luxury to turn down an offer, do look carefully at whom you're going to work for and be prepared to say No even if the money's ok. And don't believe you're going to learn all about the company, their culture and their way of working from the website that they expect you to scrutinize beforehand; often it comes down to asking the right questions at the interview. I've once turned down a prospective employer who made a very decent offer. I told them I thought their company wasn't a very good fit for the way I prefer to work, and I got the same incredulous look in return.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    25. Re:GOOD. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 3

      You are still not understanding the terms you are using.

      I based my technical career around an expected shortage based on well-defined demographics in the long-term future. Not a perceived shortage to suppress wages by hiring managers in the short-term future.

      Bingo. It is refreshing to see someone who gets it. Look for shortages and capitalize on them. That's the way to thrive in software/IT. This field is not for the inflexible.

    26. Re:GOOD. by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The majority are neither smug nor self-important. Yes, there some a-holes who write blog posts about how disgusting it is to have to occasionally see a homeless person or how ugly girls thing they're hot (4/9-ers.). But they are very much the minority. Most tech workers are fairly ordinary people, working to make a living, have a little fun, and hopefully own a home eventually... normal, everyday, "get on with your life and go about in peace" stuff. If everyone were as bad as those bloggers, you'd see stories about mid-Market Twitter and Uber employees making the homeless do demeaning tricks for food; which is obviously not happening.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    27. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2

      The funniest was when one "IT Director" replied to that very question with "Why should you care? You're just orchestrating the servers?" Why was it funny? Because the look on his face was priceless when I told him that "Well, I won't blindly slave away for some random VC chump, good luck finding someone stupid enough to work for you, and the interview is now over. Good day, gents."

      I had a interview with 3DFX in 1997. The interview with the QA manager went as expected, but fell apart when I got interviewed by the PR manager. If you ever read the Dilbert comics, a hardware company run by the marketing department was doomed to fail. I declined the job. A few years later, they decided to compete with their own customers by manufacturing their own video cards. Not surprisingly, they filed for bankruptcy in the dot com bust.

      I also had an interview with Nvidia in 1997. That lasted four hours as a dozen engineers interviewed me. I didn't get the job. Not surprisingly, they're still around.

    28. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think what you mean is that you based your career on your belief that there will exist a higher scarcity of IT labor than other labor (such as dish-washing) because a higher price would be paid due to the higher scarcity.

    29. Re:GOOD. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      That's true, and it's basic entrepreneurship; I was more commenting on the more basic premise that you can't sell any sort of new product in a market where consumers can't pay the wages of everybody involved in getting that product made, shipped, and sold. If the consumer base can't pay for the new jobs, then you can't create new jobs, and thus *somebody* has to lose.

      If all small businesses succeeded, established businesses would shrink and die constantly.

    30. Re:GOOD. by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure the stat is that 90% of ALL new businesses... not just tech startups... fail within the first two years.

      The fact that the same rule (or your 1/14) applies to tech is no reason to go running around like chicken little. Personally, I'd not be too surprised if there is a bit of a contraction... if for no other reason than the fact that, until San Francisco and the rest of the Bay Area starts building significantly more housing, we're running out of room for workers to fit. But a big difference I'm seeing vs. the dotcom days is a lack of "lose money on every transaction and make it up in volume" business plans. Most everyone seems to understand that you do have to turn a profit these days and are working (granted, not always successfully) towards that goal.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    31. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Look for shortages and capitalize on them. That's the way to thrive in software/IT.

      I had several friends who abandoned computer programming in college because health care became the new money major for everyone to enroll in after the dot com bust. In fact, I was told repeatedly that I was crazy to pursue a technical career. My friends make more money in health care than I do in IT, but they hate their jobs because they don't like being around sick people. Ironically, some of my best paying IT assignments were from working at hospitals.

    32. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      I think what you mean is that you based your career on a study that there will exist a higher scarcity of IT labor than other labor (such as dish-washing) because a higher price would be paid due to the higher scarcity.

      FTFY

    33. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to the most fundamental concept of economics: scarce resources (normally discussed in the first sentence of the first paragraph of the first chapter of all beginner microeconomics texts).

    34. Re:GOOD. by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      They also should be scared witless of Bernie. They have screwed over the working class enough and caused enough chaos that people are starting to listen to commies and not run away screaming into the night. This is a not unexpected result of a financial meltdown of epic proportions.

      The 1% have primed the situation for their own downfall due to their greed and lack of foresight.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    35. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is this area?
      I'm willing to learn new skills for a nearly 100% chance of a good paying job.

    36. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, that happened, all of it.

    37. Re:GOOD. by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      Well, Obamacare was all about making sure everyone has health insurance. Obama even wiped his butt with the Constitution in the process. So if ANY one has a sob story now, it's all on Obama.

      He's the white knight that was supposed to have solved this problem with a purely partisan effort.

      Of course any Democrats will try to shout you down if you have one bad thing to say about the ACA or what's happened with insurance afterwards. They don't want to hear about any unintended consequences or gaps in Obama's solution.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    38. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, tech types rarely understand economics because they do not understand, among many things, human activities. You likely read other studies that you chose not to believe, thus the uncorrected statement is technically correct. The study you chose to believe is what influenced your decision, but it did not (and could not) dictate the action you took. That is completely on you.

    39. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being one of the "oldsters" I'd have to agree (~30yrs in the valley). Job security is a fallacy. Don't count on stock options as they are likely to be worthless in due time. Keep your resume current. Maintain a network. Try to stay away from the fad jobs. And if you're older, like me, do your best to prepare for a short-notice retirement.

    40. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, tech types rarely understand economics because they do not understand, among many things, human activities.

      Baby boomers are retiring and the workforce (tax base) is shrinking over the next 20 years. Social Security and Medicare will consume two-thirds of the federal budget. Taxes will go way up to pay for everything else. These are undeniable economic trends. You can plan for this or you can pretend it won't happen. I'm planning for it.

    41. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love when people talk about worker shortages. In their next breath will come a hand-wringing plea for H-1B workers or offshoring, just as surely as radio stations play "We Are the Champions" after "We Will Rock You".

      Lets be real here. With colleges churning out CS majors, high schools with extremely bright students, and just people interesting in tinkering, it is trivial to find people. When assembling a team for a project based contract, all I did was just go to a nearby liberal arts college, place an ad looking for devs, and I got the people I needed with a minimum of aggrivation... yes, they were rough around the edges, but I did get the project in, on time, and on target for the contract.

      The people are there. It is just that people assume people will write code "for exposure", like musicians, and get unhappy when they can't do that.

    42. Re:GOOD. by castionsosa · · Score: 1

      Ironic thing, when I did that for a recent job, the interviewer said, "This is about you hiring with us, not the other way round." Needless to say, I found employment elsewhere.

    43. Re:GOOD. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Small business failure rate is 50% at 4 years. So, no.

    44. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, if they're so insistent that the developers be physically located in the "area you're in", then I doubt that they're really that hard up.

      Plenty of us would appreciate a good opportunity if we didn't have to be migrant workers.

    45. Re:GOOD. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I guarantee you you can find a worker to fill your slot. However, you may have to pay more, or hire someone that works remotely, if your skill set requirements are extremely specific. In software development, you do not have to have a person sitting at that special "development" desk in the closet behind the bathroom next to the boiler.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    46. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The majority are neither smug nor self-important. Yes, there some a-holes who write blog posts about how disgusting it is to have to occasionally see a homeless person or how ugly girls thing they're hot (4/9-ers.). But they are very much the minority. Most tech workers are fairly ordinary people, working to make a living, have a little fun, and hopefully own a home eventually... normal, everyday, "get on with your life and go about in peace" stuff. If everyone were as bad as those bloggers, you'd see stories about mid-Market Twitter and Uber employees making the homeless do demeaning tricks for food; which is obviously not happening.

      Normal is a six figure salary? Let's face it, white collar, upper middle class and upper class people do not live an "ordinary" lifestyle by definition, no matter what they claim or think ... just sayin.

    47. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both sides are stupid and wrong. the truth likely lays in the middle...

    48. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What exactly do you mean by "shortage"? There is a talent shortage in the sense that no matter how much money you throw at the issue, you could never get enough talent to get everything done that the market needs to do to maintain itself.

    49. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3, Funny

      the truth likely lays in the middle

      The middle of the road has dead armadillos and yellow lines.

    50. Re:GOOD. by invid · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Capitalism does not guarantee a large middle class. The invisible hand of capitalism allocates resources to areas of growth, and that is not in 90% of the population, but only in the top 10% where the growth has been happening for the past 30 years. Perhaps the invisible hand of capitalism will leave 90% of the population in poverty, especially with new robotics and automation. What's going to happen to all the truck drivers when trucks are automated? What then? How do you think a populist like Trump is going to create high paying jobs for his followers if capitalism can't do it alone? Bread and circuses? No, he's going to do what Caesar did, take the money from the oligarchs and give it to his loyalists. That's why the Republican establishment is afraid of him.

      --
      The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
    51. Re:GOOD. by castionsosa · · Score: 1

      What happens in California will just ripple over to Seattle, Portland, and Austin. VCs are VCs, and if people are worried about their jobs in SV, they better be worried in Austin, especially because if companies start laying off, they will be keeping their core offices in California, and axing the satellite offices elsewhere. Austin has a lot of companies, but not enough to stand alone if the economy tanked in California. You can't sell your new ads your new dot.com is making, if most potential buyers are in survival mode or at the courthouse filing bankruptcy paperwork.

      In some ways, Austin is just a relatively cheap suburb of SF, or Santa Cruz... except located about 1750 miles away.

    52. Re:GOOD. by mbkennel · · Score: 1

      | There is no option to hire people below, at, or above market rate. There simply aren't enough workers with the necessary skills in this area

      And, what does that mean?

      | Sometimes what you need is just not available at any price.

      Have you tried paying a million and all relocation costs?

    53. Re:GOOD. by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      No, thats not how truth works. If I get 10+10 = 18, and you get 10+10 = 32, the answer is not 27... Obvious right winger...

    54. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All based on your beliefs and perceptions and not as a result of words in a document.

    55. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      All based on your beliefs and perceptions and not as a result of words in a document.

      I suggest you get your head out of your ass and get a subscription to The Wall Street Journal.

    56. Re:GOOD. by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      especially since the oldsters are pre-spooked and ready to sell most assets to keep from losing everything as they did before.

      Pain doesn't begin to describe the loss. Everything I have done since has been with the expectation that it's all going to come crashing down again.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    57. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention the actual evil commies, after converting to a more nominally capitalist system, now officially endorse Donald Trump as president, and run their own version of Fox News.

    58. Re:GOOD. by Howitzer86 · · Score: 1

      I'm a liberal, but even I'm tired of the job creation talk. "I work not because of you, but in spite of you." Is my internal narrative towards these people. They want so much credit for not screwing up as bad as the last clown. F-that, this was my own doing. I made this.

    59. Re: GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a douche response you gave. He could have simply wanted to gauge your interest, to see what/how you think before answering.

    60. Re: GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Velocity of money?!? Unless you define your terms, this comes off as arrogant bull.

      And you say employers want to maintain a fallacy of worker shortage to keep wages down. Supply and demand means they would want to indicate a surplus of skilled workers to reduce wages, not a short fall.

    61. Re: GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      20 is in fact somewhere in the middle of 18 and 32, whereas saying 27 instead of 25 (the middle) to make your point makes you stupid.

    62. Re:GOOD. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      We have unemployment because unemployment is unavoidable. You having a job means somewhere, someone else doesn't have that job; the tube holds 30 balls and, eventually, putting one in one side pops another out the other side.

      The length of the tube is determined by the consumer market's ability to buy. Whether or not you get in the tube is determined by luck first, and then your own actions; you can wind up jobless despite your heroic effort.

    63. Re: GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes..get the paper version. Do it. Then you can wipe your ass with that bullllllshit.

    64. Re:GOOD. by CaptSlaq · · Score: 1

      The majority are neither smug nor self-important. Yes, there some a-holes who write blog posts about how disgusting it is to have to occasionally see a homeless person or how ugly girls thing they're hot (4/9-ers.). But they are very much the minority. Most tech workers are fairly ordinary people, working to make a living, have a little fun, and hopefully own a home eventually... normal, everyday, "get on with your life and go about in peace" stuff. If everyone were as bad as those bloggers, you'd see stories about mid-Market Twitter and Uber employees making the homeless do demeaning tricks for food; which is obviously not happening.

      Normal is a six figure salary? Let's face it, white collar, upper middle class and upper class people do not live an "ordinary" lifestyle by definition, no matter what they claim or think ... just sayin.

      Cost of living adjustments in the valley are, quite frankly, absurd.

    65. Re: GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      I don't read the WSJ editorial pages.

    66. Re:GOOD. by CaptSlaq · · Score: 2

      What happens in California will just ripple over to Seattle, Portland, and Austin. VCs are VCs, and if people are worried about their jobs in SV, they better be worried in Austin, especially because if companies start laying off, they will be keeping their core offices in California, and axing the satellite offices elsewhere. Austin has a lot of companies, but not enough to stand alone if the economy tanked in California. You can't sell your new ads your new dot.com is making, if most potential buyers are in survival mode or at the courthouse filing bankruptcy paperwork.

      In some ways, Austin is just a relatively cheap suburb of SF, or Santa Cruz... except located about 1750 miles away.

      That "cheap" part is why I expect Austin to wind up doing better than the valley in the long run.

    67. Re: GOOD. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      They want to create the illusion of a shortage so that they can import enough needful-doers to create a surplus.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    68. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >My smugness has not diminished.

      Verily, your smugness may have increased!

    69. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I had a interview with 3DFX in 1997. The interview with the QA manager went as expected, but fell apart when I got interviewed by the PR manager. If you ever read the Dilbert comics, a hardware company run by the marketing department was doomed to fail. I declined the job. A few years later, they decided to compete with their own customers by manufacturing their own video cards. Not surprisingly, they filed for bankruptcy in the dot com bust.

      I also had an interview with Nvidia in 1997. That lasted four hours as a dozen engineers interviewed me. I didn't get the job. Not surprisingly, they're still around.

      And of course Nvidia ended up hiring about 100 of the engineers from 3DFX after the company went bust...

      http://fudzilla.com/news/graph...

      That included Gary Tarolli (one of the 3dfx founders), Emmett Kilgariff (head of Rampage), and Brian Kelleher (Vp Engineering) ...

    70. Re:GOOD. by pnutjam · · Score: 2

      A "socialist" is not a "commie". Your spouting pure hogwash. There is plenty of room for higher incomes to absorb higher taxes.

    71. Re:GOOD. by snizzitch · · Score: 1

      Yes. If life sucks for you, it should suck for everyone else! Drag everyone down to the level of the person who has it the worst.

    72. Re:GOOD. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Funny

      Let's face it, white collar, upper middle class and upper class people do not live an "ordinary" lifestyle by definition

      We have to deal with a lot of problems that "ordinary" people do not. For instance, we can't just hop in the car and go on a trip, without first doing a web search for Tesla charging stations. For some destinations, there are no chargers enroute, and we have to take the spouse's BMW instead.

    73. Re:GOOD. by HiThere · · Score: 2

      If you go for stock options, determine to what extent they can be diluted through the issuance of additional stock, and who gets the money when that additional stock is sold. You may be surprised.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    74. Re:GOOD. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      No, the truth isn't somewhere in between those to extremes, it's off in a different direction. And nobody knows what it is.

      I find it quite ominous that Trump has been taking so much from Hitler's playbook, but it's not at all certain how much he means it. My suspicion is that he isn't an actual racist, except in a very specialized meaning of the term in which all other people are of a different race than he is. But this doesn't mean I can say anything complimentary about Hillary. I'm going to need to vote Other, even if I don't know exactly which party yet. (Probably Green, but I haven't bothered to read their platform or look at their candidate yet this time.) I could have voted for Sanders, but I couldn't vote for Hillary unless she made a speech on national TV where she explicitly committed herself to veto the TPP or any similar legislation. Even then I'd have a hard time. And waffling doesn't count. Neither does having other people say she's opposed to the TPP. She was a partial author of that monstrosity.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    75. Re:GOOD. by flink · · Score: 1

      I had several friends who abandoned computer programming in college because health care became the new money major for everyone to enroll in after the dot com bust. In fact, I was told repeatedly that I was crazy to pursue a technical career. My friends make more money in health care than I do in IT, but they hate their jobs because they don't like being around sick people. Ironically, some of my best paying IT assignments were from working at hospitals.

      That's why I spent 10 years doing healthcare IT. First there was all the work on the business side getting everyone HIPAA-compliant, and now on the clinical side everyone wants to build an HIE.

    76. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My Democrat friends post another fake graphic every day showing how the economy is doing just *great*, better than ever! and everybody has a job and Obama has saved us.

      My Tea Party relatives in Idaho send me emails about how terrible the economy is with 92 million people out of work, how black women will cut off the heads of white men with guillotines and black men will rape white men at FEMA camps, and Donald Trump will save us from our sins. Another day in the right-wing echo chamber.

      Leave it to the Tea Party kooks to want everyone in the USA to work. Retirement? bah humbug. School? Pfft. Child labor? Well, they don't complain as much as adults...

    77. Re: GOOD. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      It's OK, he's a liberal, he's not supposed to be good at math...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    78. Re:GOOD. by khallow · · Score: 1

      In the area I'm in, there is a worker shortage in software development. There is no option to hire people below, at, or above market rate.

      Let me help here. You're nowhere near market rate.

    79. Re:GOOD. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Baby boomers are retiring and the workforce (tax base) is shrinking over the next 20 years. Social Security and Medicare will consume two-thirds of the federal budget. Taxes will go way up to pay for everything else. These are undeniable economic trends. You can plan for this or you can pretend it won't happen. I'm planning for it.

      I find it interesting when people make relatively long term predictions (which at least are plausible) and then personally act on those predictions. From elsewhere in this thread, it sounds like you decided on an IT career that you think will fit well with this trend. So if you don't me asking, what sort of trends are you prepared for, and what are you doing to prepare?

    80. Re:GOOD. by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      Both sides are stupid and wrong. the truth likely lays in the middle...

      I would say "both sides are stupid and wrong sometimes, and both sides are intelligent and correct sometimes". It just depends on the issue.

      I've found that folks on the left and right agree on quite a number of things individually but can't say it out loud for fear of angering the rest of their respective herd. I rarely go on facebook anymore because of the nuttery being pushed by both sides.

    81. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Check Craigslist. Used to be tons of contracting job posts. Now - just a trickle. Just because you aren't looking, doesn't mean it isn't there fagballs.

    82. Re:GOOD. by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      Yes. Six figures is normal... in the Bay Area. As of the 2010 census (Which, remember, took place around the tail-end of the 2008 recession.), salary of $100,000 would put you in approximately the top 40% of earners in either the San Francisco or San Jose metro areas:

      http://statisticalatlas.com/Un...

      And that was six years ago. The economy has been improving, and salaries rising with it, ever since.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    83. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      working to make a living, have a little fun, and hopefully own a home eventually

      Sounds like one should live in Florida.

    84. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 0

      Uh, the large corporations of the IT industry have already found a way around that bubble. It's called H1-B.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    85. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Yes, by all means capitalize it for a month or two, and also learn the skill of teaching foreigners to do your job. In fact, I'm not sure why most employers don't just make 'transitioning to a foreigner' a job requirement in the first place.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    86. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Yes, what a mistake it is to think 'fair market' means being able to ask more money for a skill that is high in demand with no one to do it.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    87. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're just orchestrating the servers?"

      That's when you end the interview and say you'll contract for top doallar, let them pay on schedule and do as little as possible knowing they'll go belly up to not pay out the last few months. Free money is to be made in startups.

    88. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      so, wait, NVidia are still around because you didn't get the job?

    89. Re:GOOD. by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      The media completely misunderstands Silicon Valley. Even the media within the Bay Area gets it all wrong. They think it's a society full of entrepreneurs when those people are a very small minority. Most jobs here are not at startups, and most people seem to prefer that. Salary is better than stock options. We don't hang out at parties and discuss business ventures as some media stories seem to to imply. Silicon Valley also isn't as high tech as it once was. I mean everyone treats Google as their darling but it's a freaking advertising delivery service. Smugness is up in San Francisco, though again the media gets confused and seems to think it is a part of Silicon Valley (at the same time that they think Twitter and Uber are high tech).

    90. Re:GOOD. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Doesn't mean we'll be able to retire easily on that salary though. If you invested well you can (but I suck at it), but quite a lot of people plan to move away after retirement. In Montana you'd be quite wealthy with that salary, but in Silicon Valley you're in a small condo, and in San Francisco you're renting with roommates, which is why we have some people who commute 2 hours or more each way so that they can have a nice house for the spouse and kids.

    91. Re:GOOD. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      IT workers are interchangeable commodities though. They all want you to accept their MS Certifications in lieu of actual experience and they hop between jobs faster than engineers do. All the IT jobs can be outsourced pretty easily. Whereas engineering jobs are much more difficult to outsource than service jobs; all those top Indian and Chinese engineers are already in the US. Learn to be a great programmer, learn to design hardware, learn to design networking protocols, learn how to make the tools that people want to buy, then you'll get more job security.

    92. Re:GOOD. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      IT (which is a nebulous term I know) has a very large percentage of workers that are easily interchanged. And the IT workers seem to want it this way. Standardize around using only Microsoft products, base hiring and job hunting decisions upon MS certificates, and so forth, then they act surprised that they're easily outsourced.

    93. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Well to be fair, people thought that kind of counted on corporations not getting a free pass on immigration laws. Or at the very least the spirit of H1-B would be enforced; that is, a company could not import employees unless there were none available domestically. The 'free market' means something very much different when corps have such easy ways into a market that is based in an entirely different economy.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    94. Re:GOOD. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Overall software has dumbed down for many jobs. Thus there is a shortgage for people who remember how to program for real and not just link two APIs together with some glue code. I'm finding that EE graduates are much more able to program halfway decently compared to CS graduates; their eyes don't glaze over when asked to work with hardware or a low level language.

    95. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you a self-sacrificing saint or a mercenary?

      I cannot get far enough away from health IT because I don't like being around sick organizations and that's all there seems to be in health. The most absurdly inefficient mixture of regulations, cover-your-ass non-solutions, and quackery where managers and marketers check off long lists of required features that don't add up to a useful system. Doctors spending all their time learning how to "code" their patient encounters to optimize billing while corrupting the value of the data for actual medical purposes. An economic system run by rent-seekers abusing their position under the color of humanism.

    96. Re:GOOD. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I don't work for stock options, I want a salary instead of promises. I have never worked for any company that wasn't incredibly stupid in some area or other. That's just the nature of things. If the job is good and my coworkers are decent I'll stick with it even if the upper management keep walking into walls. I've had a few times where it was difficult to find jobs so I'm still in that mode where I'm not going to take it all for granted.

      The things I care about more would be what is the actual team I'm going to work with be like, am I going to end up being the smartest person in the room or will I actually have people with good ideas about how to do things, is the code base an incomprehensible ball of accretions or will doing the work actually be interesting, am I maintaining old orphaned products or helping to design new products, things like that. A lot of companies don't understand that, they seem to think that they need to mention who all their original founders and investors were.

    97. Re:GOOD. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I'm just glad I'm not on Facebook. Don't be jealous.

    98. Re:GOOD. by russotto · · Score: 1

      Yes, absolute shortages exist. Unless the area you are in is somehow inaccessible to most people (e.g. you're in ISIS-controlled territory), you don't have one. There is a price you can pay to get workers; that you're not willing to pay it doesn't mean there are no workers at any price.

    99. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      It's called H1-B.

      As Southeast Asian countries develop a middle class over the next 20+ years, fewer people will want to travel abroad to work in the US. With baby boomers retiring at the same time, IT will have a shortage of skilled workers.

    100. Re:GOOD. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      If you invested well you can (but I suck at it)

      I don't want to be held accountable if you mess up but I have learned a few things which may, or may not, be of value to you...

      Do *not* check the business/investment news sections.
      Do not attempt to trade on the whims of the market - I might login and check once a week, as a general rule. I might move something twice a month.
      Long-term but not greedy.

      I don't check the investment news, I don't watch the ticker price, I don't even know what the current values are. I don't care. The market fluctuates - hold long-term. Watching all those things and reading all those things seems to make me think I know too much and I start making trades all day long - this is a money loosing adventure.

      An example, I bought a bunch of shares in Tesla back when they were $24 each. I've not actually checked their particular price in quite a while now. I'll start paying attention as their next announcement draws near. I expect them to peak over $250 each. I'll be unloading sometime around that time - I'd rather not be too specific. Suffice to say, it will all be automated. I'm a patient person and I don't need the money today - if I needed the money today then it would not be tied up in investments.

      Index funds, bonds, those are slow but generally good. Municipal bonds are pretty good if you're just looking for near-certain growth. It's not a bad rate but you can easily beat it.

      I said I didn't want to be specific and I don't want to be. So, this is just an example...

      Right now, I'm watching VW. Yup, still... I'm waiting for the other foot to drop and them to get nailed in the media and in the courts. That's going to tank their value. I will buy then - I will invest a whole bunch. Why? I'm *really* certain that within five years that they'll have recovered to previous levels and I'll have probably made at least 300%. When it does that - I'll sell it, rather than stay in and be greedy. I'll then do it again with something else.

      I don't plan on buying and selling. I buy and hold. I never buy with the intent of selling in less than a year. In my case, short-term investing means higher tax rates (income vs. capital gains) and I've not had any luck with it. I've yet to make any money doing the short-term stuff. It's mostly fairly automated. After a while, I say that I want to sell when it hits X price. I then forget about it for a while and let 'em do their thing.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    101. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      All the IT jobs can be outsourced pretty easily.

      Not all of them. I've been doing computer security with a security clearance in government IT for nearly two years. The prime contract is fully funded for the next three years. We're still hiring more American citizens with 10 to 20 years of IT experience to meet the increasing workload. I'm making 40% less than a private sector job, but paid federal holidays, 20 Paid Time Off (PTO) days, and a full benefit package makes up for the difference.

    102. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      So if you don't me asking, what sort of trends are you prepared for, and what are you doing to prepare?

      Computer security is probably less likely to be outsourced to foreign workers in the future. Especially in government IT that requires a security clearance (my current job). So I'm studying for the security certifications to jump from $50,000 per year to $100,000 per year when I change jobs in the next few years.

      With the poor and the rich being exempt from paying taxes, the tax burden will fall heavily on the middle class in the coming years. I'm planning to open a personal investment corporation (a.k.a., family office or hedge fund), build up a profolio of dividend-paying stocks, and put $53,000 per year into a qualified retirement account (an IRA account only allows $6,500 per year and the tax deductions phases out at higher income levels). Existing tax laws is quite favorable for corporations. I don't see that changing in the next 20+ years.

    103. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Ok well I hope so, but I'll believe it when I see it.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    104. Re:GOOD. by dev-in-seattle · · Score: 0

      We have to deal with a lot of problems that "ordinary" people do not. For instance, we can't just hop in the car and go on a trip, without first doing a web search for Tesla charging stations. For some destinations, there are no chargers enroute, and we have to take the spouse's BMW instead.

      ha ha, you don't have a Tesla! If you did, you could use the onboard navigation system to find a route that includes going through enough chargers to make your destination. I meant to be funny, but I guess I should make a serious point, they really do have a nav system that knows about superchargers. You can also check plugshare for many other public chargers. I guess Tesla owners will soon be (are we already?), the new smug asshole bmw driver replacements. My wife would say yes :-)

    105. Re: GOOD. by dev-in-seattle · · Score: 0

      Good choice about not reading the editorials. The other way to get a lot of basic education on the economy and economic concepts is to listen to the daily marketplace podcast. Contango! It's still affecting the price of oil.

    106. Re:GOOD. by dev-in-seattle · · Score: 0

      Not all of them. I've been doing computer security with a security clearance in government IT for nearly two years. The prime contract is fully funded for the next three years. We're still hiring more American citizens with 10 to 20 years of IT experience to meet the increasing workload. I'm making 40% less than a private sector job, but paid federal holidays, 20 Paid Time Off (PTO) days, and a full benefit package makes up for the difference.

      That's a pretty decent set of benefits, but most software engineering jobs start with full medical insurance and 3 weeks vacation, plus a few holidays (xmas, new years, memorial day, july 4, labor day). The one thing some full time federal jobs come with is a pension - that's the one thing that really makes them appeal.

    107. Re:GOOD. by dev-in-seattle · · Score: 0

      EE grads should be more than basically capable with hardware of course! But in regular programming jobs, CS people are at least as good. Dev jobs are full of EE people that have to slum it as programmers because there aren't enough great jobs for EE.

    108. Re: GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Velocity of money

      It's a standard term in economics, you dumb fuck.

    109. Re:GOOD. by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      The one thing some full time federal jobs come with is a pension - that's the one thing that really makes them appeal.

      I'm just a contractor, so no pension. The contracting agency doesn't even offer a match on the 401K plan.

    110. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 'high income' does not sit around and allow people like you to take their money.
      In California, just 150K people, out of the 36M, pay 50% of the state income tax. They are getting really good at moving assets away from the state. Check out the very high end communities in Nevada, Texas, etc. where Californians 'live' to avoid paying California taxes.
      The state continues to play wack-a-mole when they should be spending within their income.
      But, hey, California NEEDS a 20B+++ high speed rail between Modesto and Bakersfield....

    111. Re:GOOD. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      Yes, by all means capitalize it for a month or two, and also learn the skill of teaching foreigners to do your job. In fact, I'm not sure why most employers don't just make 'transitioning to a foreigner' a job requirement in the first place.

      You are doing it wrong if you feel that way. I've been in this shit for 22 years. You are always at risk of being replaced, so the solution is to simply keep moving. This is reality. It has been a reality for almost two decades. It is a reality that you can still navigate and make an above average salary.

      It beats the alternatives.You can either use it to your advantage or feel sorry for yourself. Your choice.

    112. Re:GOOD. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The way I see it, there's two approaches to investing: go for average returns (which aren't bad if you're patient), or go for better than that. If you're going for the gold, have a clear idea how you're going to beat the average and that it will likely work. You're asserting that you can do something better than the next guy, and that will make you money in some specific way.

      KGIII, above, is saying he's more patient than the average investor, and that long-run opportunities will, in the long run, generally beat short-term opportunities. He's also saying he can pick long-term winners and losers better than most, perhaps by observing the short-term effects of various events. My mother invested in companies that she considered good corporate citizens that treated their customers well, with quite a bit of success. I appear to have a higher tolerance to risk than average (not that I'm holding up my investments as an example).

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    113. Re:GOOD. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Unemployment is unavoidable. This doesn't mean there's a fixed number of jobs or even that there's somebody who can't get a job. In such economies, unemployment exists because the job market really isn't very efficient, so it takes some time to match people up with the jobs they'll do best in.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    114. Re:GOOD. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      And, of course, Republicans will shout you down if you have one good thing to say about the ACA, like the fact that more people have health insurance now and aren't as vulnerable to being bankrupted by one medical emergency.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    115. Re:GOOD. by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      The job of the investment community is to make money for their investors. They have one job, and they'd better do it. If this means frantic trading of tulip bulbs, that's what they'll do. If we want resources to go into more productive things, we need to figure out how to make that more profitable than teaching people how to flip real estate.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    116. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I've been doing it for around that long myself. I didn't see what the big deal was, but in the last few months everything around me started to get outsourced. I have basically been told that I can only continue on for anther year or two. I've been looking for something else, but so far the salaries I have been offered will set me back 10 years in my career. I'm sure that there are some that are lucky to work for companies or at least live in areas with companies that resist this movement, but it is a real thing.

      Being realistic about how the game is changing in a way that will make things more difficult for me is way different than feeling sorry for myself; that was actually a bit of a dickish thing to say. I've fortunately seen this coming and I have been able to prepare myself with a few alternative plans to fall back on, but they are nothing like the traditional job that most people have and they involve quite a bit more risk.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    117. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I guess it comes down to this.. I'm not going to feel sorry for myself in the way I won't do what I can to mitigate it.. for I am entirely capable. It doesn't mean I have to like the fact that the world is changing and making me less valuable than I would be if there weren't people capable of changing the rules in their favor. If someone steals my car, I'm going to do what I need to do to get a new car but I don't have to like the fact that I have been placed in that position.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    118. Re:GOOD. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      The guy who manages my real portfolio, not the one that I was referring to above, actually adds this - I've asked him before if he had any advice that I could give people. I'll try to get it to be close to verbatim.

      "Go to the grocery store. Look at the shelves and see which products are running out AND which products are in people's carts. Match the two. People are always going to buy food. Find their parent companies, invest in those." (I've done a little of that, they're slow but steady. Cereal, skin care, pasta, even bread - some of them pay decent dividends too but I turn those back over.)

      In the case of VW, that's what you describe - you've described it better than I could myself. I look for short-term (to me) trends. Stock dropping 1/2 its value does not scare me away WHEN I've every reason to believe it will return to its original value. In fact, it tells me to buy more. VW isn't going anywhere. Not in my lifetime. It's already lost half its value. If it loses it again and then returns to where it was (maybe five years from now) then I'll increase my investment by 400%. I've every reason to believe that's true.

      I pay attention to the comments section at sites with smart people. ;-) No, I'm not even remotely joking about that. I've described it in much longer terms before.

      However, the above David, is much more articulate than I.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    119. Re:GOOD. by Howitzer86 · · Score: 1

      I tend to think of opportunity as the result of being in the right place with the right skills and the right background. The job I ended up with is not what I had in mind, though at least it opened the door to a middle-class income and let me stay somewhat in line with my interest in computer graphics. At the same time though, the work I did want to do is flooded with way too many people thanks to game/film school diploma mills. I went to a local university, majored in computer science, and worked in a VR lab on campus. There I did some work for a local building contractor, which directly lead to my current doing building information modeling. I know what could have happened had I followed my dreams, but I'm not without regret either. I'm split on how I feel about it.

      I can say though that what people will do best in may not be known to them until they experience it. The thing they wanted may turn out to be something they'll hate, and the thing they ended up with that they initially regretted may actually turn out to be a good deal.

      I'm really safe in this job. I provide what's expected of my job title and quite a bit more due to my interests. I can be replaced, but they'll have a hard time doing it. The people out there like me but living their dreams often wouldn't settle for my job, even if their job is objectively awful, pays less, and they're abused by companies that don't consider them valuable.

    120. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but to use the navigation system, you've actually got to go out and get in the car. I mean, it's a big house and the garage seems like it is so far away...

    121. Re:GOOD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Punctuation, not even once...

    122. Re:GOOD. by omtinez · · Score: 1

      I think this is a very interesting prediction. I'm sure that there's more to it than what you wrote here, and that you oversimplified some things for the sake of brevity; I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on the long-term trends in the tech field labor supply/demand.

    123. Re:GOOD. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Thank you for your comments. Looks like a good plan. I think eventually job loss to the rest of the world will stabilize, but not during our career lifespans. And your investment strategy should be fairly resistant to inflation (and maybe the ongoing peculiarities of the US tax system) which I think will be a thing for the US over the next few decades.

    124. Re:GOOD. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      You're thinking in terms of individual maximizing strategy; what about the whole market? Consumers have $1,000 to spend and need $200 to eat, but there are 6 people. To hire 1 person, you must pay him at least $200. To sell that product, you must charge at least $200. How many jobs can you create, and how many people are unemployed?

      No amount of being in the right place at the right time will get that last person or two a job.

    125. Re:GOOD. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      I've been doing it for around that long myself. I didn't see what the big deal was, but in the last few months everything around me started to get outsourced. I have basically been told that I can only continue on for anther year or two.

      I have been told that since 2001 as far as I can remember. And before that, I've been told full-time jobs would be completely replaced by contracting gigs at least since 1995 (this has been mostly true depending of the metro area one lives.) To stave off such predictions, one has to be ruthlessly pro-active and plan/expect to shift gigs (or survive a layoff) every 3-4 years. I'm sorry if I came up as a dick, but truly, you should have seen how much of a big deal this was.

      In my experience, the only people that are very insulated from these things are engineers working with the DOE or DOD contracts with some type of required clearance, or working in critical systems, like medical devices or avionics. That's the type of shit with contractual red tapes that one cannot throw bodies at (specially offshore bodies.)

      I've been looking for something else, but so far the salaries I have been offered will set me back 10 years in my career.

      Don't consider that option unless you really have to. It can go really sideways. I have a friend of mine that quit engineering, and that shit didn't work out at all. And it is hard to come back, almost impossible.

      Be willing to work contracts, be willing to travel. Be willing to have an additional source of income. Be willing to sacrifice a benefit (say, paid vacation or a 401k) from time to time. It is not pretty, but it beats the alternatives (like changing a career and being set back a decade in salary.)

      The only way to really switch careers without sacrificing compensation is by going into your own business, in a business that you (or people close to you) are 1) familiar and 2) successful. Differently from my friend who switched and tanked, I have another friend that went from engineering into a landscaping business (for rich neighborhoods) with a brother that had already a established company. He works somewhat longer hours, but he kept comparable compensations, with potential for more, and a more flexible schedule.

      That is, you cannot quit engineering to become an flat-salary employee somewhere else. If you quit, it is because you are going into a business with significantly good chances of doing well (landscaping or commercial real estate, for instance.)

      I'm sure that there are some that are lucky to work for companies or at least live in areas with companies that resist this movement, but it is a real thing. Being realistic about how the game is changing in a way that will make things more difficult for me is way different than feeling sorry for myself; that was actually a bit of a dickish thing to say. I've fortunately seen this coming and I have been able to prepare myself with a few alternative plans to fall back on, but they are nothing like the traditional job that most people have and they involve quite a bit more risk.

      Forget traditional jobs. They have been gone for 2 decades now. I'm sorry if I came up as a dick, but truly dude, I have a hard time understanding how people are just realizing something that has been a status quo for quite some time. That's the kind of shit that can blindside you really bad.

    126. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Well, it used to be that if you wanted guaranteed income you worked a traditional job. I wouldn't consider raising a family on a nontraditional job. Don't blame me for seeing my dad go through the same company, being promoted, and thinking I could get that for myself. Now all there is very little traditional and I'd adapted, but not with the same assurances for myself and my family than I had before.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    127. Re:GOOD. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      Well, it used to be that if you wanted guaranteed income you worked a traditional job. I wouldn't consider raising a family on a nontraditional job. Don't blame me for seeing my dad go through the same company, being promoted, and thinking I could get that for myself. Now all there is very little traditional and I'd adapted, but not with the same assurances for myself and my family than I had before.

      I'm not blaming you. I'm just telling you that the writing was on the wall for a long time. Hell it was there even before people in our age bracket entered the professional job market. The Japanese were en route to take over, and it was just their catastrophic real estate bubble that stopped them on their tracks. But by that time we had already lost a lot of jobs already to them and to the Taiwanese. We are talking early 80's.

      That is, the job disruption reckoning was postponed by 10 years. Which is why it was only till the late 90's and early 2000's (and not a decade before) that we started feeling the brunt of it. It is demographics. It is unstoppable. And it was visible in its current form two decades ago, and we were getting solid hints of it a full decade before that.

      I would actually say it is more feasible to have an middle/upper-middle class family income with non-traditional job opportunities. Versatility is king now.

    128. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Sure, if non-traditional jobs actually replaced traditional jobs in terms of compensation, but they don't. At the very least, they require longer hours doing non-payed activities such as networking and in my experience they don't offer enough compensation to purchase health coverage like a traditional job would offer.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    129. Re:GOOD. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      Sure, if non-traditional jobs actually replaced traditional jobs in terms of compensation, but they don't.

      Depends. Like, when I work as a contractor, I do not get the same type of 401k matching (through the contracting agency) I would get with a company as a perm. And certainly I do not get paid vacation (which could be about 6% of your total annual income.) But I do negotiate for a larger base salary to somewhat compensate for loss benefits (not to mention that I typically get the added/invisible benefit of working with newer technologies far more often with contracts than with perm jobs.)

      At the very least, they require longer hours doing non-payed activities such as networking

      But networking has been a given in any professional career, like, forever. Whether you were an engineer or a lawyer or a doctor, you had to network.

      and in my experience they don't offer enough compensation to purchase health coverage like a traditional job would offer.

      My experience has been that health coverage in traditional jobs have gone down the crapper for the last 10 years. There is almost no difference in coverage between a traditional job and a reputable contracting agency.

      As a consultant, I typically get a comparable health care plan, but I have to plan for COBRA between gigs (but that might change as ACA and other things change the health insurance landscape.) The key here is to accept that your health plans are nothing but insurance against catastrophic events. You accept this, and you budget for this. Then there are no sour surprises.

      In other words, it is a balance. You gain some, you lose some. In addition to that, I accept the fact I will work 50 hours at least no matter what type of job I have (perm or contract) and that I have to squeeze here and there to do odd jobs on the side for additional money.

      So, that's the non-traditional path I follow. I'm overworked just trying to keep a certain level of compensation. So, it sucks.

      But, on the other hand, just being in anything related to software puts the like of you and me way ahead of everybody else. And just being in this country puts us (and our children) ahead of 5 billion people (and their children.)

      The important thing here is to get perspective. As the marines say, "embrace the suck". Otherwise, it will eat you alive. At the very least, they require longer hours doing non-payed activities such as networking and in my experience they don't offer enough compensation to purchase health coverage like a traditional job would offer.

    130. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      The problem with "embrace the suck" is that, unless people put their foot down at some point, it will only be worse next year. You are a contributor to the wage gap as much as anyone else.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    131. Re:GOOD. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      The problem with "embrace the suck" is that, unless people put their foot down at some point, it will only be worse next year.

      You put the foot down by negotiating better terms. I've increase my salary 4-fold in 25 years. Granted, I have to work long hours, but there is no alternative. And since I know what poverty truly looks like (I was born in a poor country), I'd say that anyone born in this country should consider himself blessed.

      You are a contributor to the wage gap as much as anyone else.

      I disagree with that notion. You want to put your foot down, no one stops you. I have a family to feed, a family to provide a middle/upper-middle class life. So I work where work is available, do what I need to do, and work as many hours as needed.

      Obviously, if I do the math and divide my total income by the number of hours I put in, my hourly rate has decreased. But guess what? I'm still at a better place that many people in this country (and many more people outside of this country.)

      I try to lift people when I can, I talk and coach kids about what they need to do to prepare themselves. I've helped people make the transition from one career into another. I think that is more helpful to ameliorate the wage gap than spouting notions of putting our feet down. In a world where we could negotiate and demand compensation from employers as equals we wouldn't have to do this.

      But that's not reality. It has never been a reality in this world. I was born in a poor country, I know what a really shitty short end of the stick looks like. Here, we are blessed, no matter how hard you think you have it. We are given an opportunity to work our asses and have some acceptable income. It is harder than the deal boomers had, but I can tell you, it is a far more better deal than the one 5 billion people on this Earth live and die with.

      It is not beneficial for me or my family to pretend I can turn the clock back and hop into that gravy train. Right now I'm working 50+ hours a week, and I'm looking at getting another gig. My wife does things on the side, even Amazon Turk for pennies. My accountant (he is from Iran) who I saw this saturday, that guy was in his office, on saturday, from 10AM to 11PM.

      Of course we want to have more free time, I would love to spend more time with my children. But guess what, people like me, people like my accountant, we know how the gig is.

      Think about about all the blue collar American workers who leave their families behind for 3-6 months at a time to work oil rigs in Texas or North Dakota. They also know how the gig is. We have obligations to fill, and we are thankful to have a chance to fulfill them even if it means making sacrifices. There is no time to dream for good times that are forever gone.

      The way to close the income gap is not by putting the foot down and pretend we can turn the clock back. Is by giving back, is by having empathy, is by helping others... and by working our asses off to ensure we and our children don't fall through the cracks.

    132. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      What makes you think we can't turn the clock back? It is just a matter of changing federal legislation. How could you resign so willingly to something that affects you so much.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    133. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      The blue collar workers I know that leave their families behind 3-6 months of the year are making four times as much money as they could with their skills otherwise. That's totally fine, if they want to do that. I just don't want to be starved out of my choice to make 1/4 of that money and have time to spend with my family.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    134. Re:GOOD. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      What makes you think we can't turn the clock back? It is just a matter of changing federal legislation.

      Because federal legislation means squat to 3-4 billion people all of the sudden entering the workforce with enough education to compete against us. Because protectionism would wreak havoc to our supply chains. Because the countries we compete against us are also our biggest customers in heavy machinery, agriculture and pharma; a disruption in our supply chains would also cause disruption in their supply chains (which would tremendously impact our exports.)

      And so on, and so on, and so on. You are still operating in the 1950's-1960's premise that half of the world was either in the pre-industrial age or in ashes, when the US industrial capacity emerged not only unscathed but supreme. A time when you could nothing but a HS degree and limited skills and yet work a 9-5 job pulling a lever in a conveyor belt for 20-30 years and retire with a home fully paid.

      That gravy train is gone dude. Protectionism via legislation won't do squat because the rest of the world, though still behind us, they can adapt their supply chains and create new markets. A global economy was inevitable (unless you were willing to bomb countries back to the stone age to maintain economic supremacy).

      And as such, a global economy is like the internet. As John Gilmore said "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it", a connected economy will see protectionist barriers as damage and route around it.

      Do you know that US car manufacturers cannot compete with German and Asian car manufactures in Latin America and Africa because the former have trade agreement and we do not? Mexico is our 3rd largest buyer of agricultural exports. Tiny Central America is our 4th largest buyer. What do you think will happen if we decided build a wall and start protectionist shenanigans?

      Do you want to see what happens to a powerful country that goes the road of protectionism? Take a look at Brazil. That's what happens.

      The economy is not a zero-sum game.

      How could you resign so willingly to something that affects you so much.

      It's called adaptation. It's called evolution. I have an obligation to work in whatever I can to provide for my family needs. If and when there is a working alternative to this state of affairs, I will take it. But in the meantime, I will embrace the suck and make it work to my advantage. I'm not going to close my eyes and wish reality to go away.

    135. Re:GOOD. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      The blue collar workers I know that leave their families behind 3-6 months of the year are making four times as much money as they could with their skills otherwise. That's totally fine, if they want to do that. I just don't want to be starved out of my choice to make 1/4 of that money and have time to spend with my family.

      That's good and dandy, and I respect that. We all have choices to make.

    136. Re:GOOD. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Your family needs your presence, not just money. If America is really that far gone and unable to negotiate in favor of its population, then society is done anyway so there really isn't any point throwing your hands up and just trying to do your best. If you are not rich, then the winning play is definitely to go on welfare. Teach your kids to do the same, because there will be no jobs for them to support themselves. That will work for another generation until social services run out of money, then I don't know what people do. Starvation on the streets, I guess.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  3. oh, not the encryption ban? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

    Their own Senator plans to leave a smoking crater where the Valley was. Maybe they can plant orchards again.

    http://thehill.com/policy/cybe...

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:oh, not the encryption ban? by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      Which of the senile idiots are you referring to?

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    2. Re:oh, not the encryption ban? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sen. Feinstein

      see TFA [thehill.com]
      http://thehill.com/policy/cybe...

    3. Re:oh, not the encryption ban? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Neither Feinstein nor Boxer represents the Silicon Valley tech folks at all. Boxer is Hollywood's senator, and Feinstein is the senator for the valley's military industrial complex. All the Republicans would have to do is run moderates who don't have a history of bankrupting major tech companies and who aren't running on an anti-gay platform, and both of our senators would be gone.

      This reaction by Feinstein isn't even surprising. It is quite typical. This Feinstein quote says everything:

      “It’s obviously controversial, so I can’t tell you. It’s just that I have a basic fundamental belief this is very important and that no American company should be above the law.”

      How does that even make sense? If what they're doing is legal, then they aren't being above the law, and if it isn't, then you don't need this law. ???

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  4. Start the chant: CRASH! CRASH! CRASH! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    This bubble needs to pop. Venture capital needs to go out of business.

    1. Re:Start the chant: CRASH! CRASH! CRASH! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      needs to

      [citation needed]

    2. Re:Start the chant: CRASH! CRASH! CRASH! by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Time to invent a new gizmo to generate a new bubble. Smart-phones are too mainstream, and the iWatch hasn't quite caught on. iNoseRing, or something. I'm partial to the "Get Smart" shoe-phone idea. iSocks?

    3. Re:Start the chant: CRASH! CRASH! CRASH! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      iPatch, of course!

    4. Re:Start the chant: CRASH! CRASH! CRASH! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      iPlug, you can probably figure out where it goes...

    5. Re:Start the chant: CRASH! CRASH! CRASH! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It will be iChains. Reporting your location, your stress levels and everything to the 1%ers and their helpers.

    6. Re:Start the chant: CRASH! CRASH! CRASH! by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      no, that's iWife.

  5. Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Never again. I value my personal time with my wife and children too much to devote it to a mere job, no matter how "good" that job may be. I'm interested in working with interesting tech, primarily things relating to command line tools, regexp, pattern matching, you get the picture. I left the startup culture for good and went to non-profits. Why? Because I have more latitude with how I work and what I work with than I ever did following some young, inexperienced founder(s) hellbent on getting rich. I work 40 hours a week, 8-5, Monday-Friday. These are normal, healthy hours. Anything else is for monkeys and those foolish enough to believe working 70 hours makes a difference.

    You have one life. The time you have is precious. There is no rewind button. Do what you love, but do it largely for yourself or your family if you are married and have children.

    1. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The 40-hour week is a socialist conspiracy. Those who believe in it are Unamerican. Get your facts right.

    2. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      The 40-hour week is a socialist conspiracy. Those who believe in it are Unamerican. Get your facts right.

      I haven't worked overtime in the last 10+ years. My employment contracts with Fortune 500 companies and the government forbids me from working over 40 hours a week. No one wants to pay overtime.

    3. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      On the flip side I love the startup culture because of the work. I love going in to work every day, enjoying the passionate people and having a huge scope and impact. I've been working in the bay area startup scene for a decade, and I've gotten quite rich working for some young, inexperienced founder(s). I work 50+ hours a week, but when you love what you do it doesn't feel like work. As soon as the culture tanks and I don't love what I do I always move on because "You have one life. The time you have is precious." Why spend it in some soulless 9-5 cubicle job?

      Also the VC money evaporating is overblown. VCs are becoming more realistic, valuations becoming sane. Does SF really need 10 VC backed employee-lunch delivery companies? Fuck no. If you aren't doing something worthwhile you deserve a down round or to close up. The bubble isn't bursting, its just sorta reducing swelling...

    4. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Notorious+G · · Score: 2

      This is why Silicon Valley companies blatantly discriminate against older workers - older meaning anyone over 35. They want only those young, stupid, kids who still idolize the death march coding sessions, mistakenly think meals being catered in is a perk for their benefit, and nerf gun wars between cubes are so cool. I'm so done with any company on the West Coast. Whatever it is they're doing out there, I don't want to be a part of it.

    5. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Command line tools, regexp, pattern matching? That's an unusual perspective on what makes for 'interesting tech'. Can you elaborate?

      The rest of your comments I agree with 100%.

    6. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's BS. My contracts with Fortune 500s and the government do not forbid me from working more than forty hours, in fact they practically encourage me to seek out new opportunities and strike when I can.

    7. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plenty of people aren't married, have no children, and are so much in debt that they will never have either unless they work 70 hours a week.

    8. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see you suffer from the disease that tells you your personal choices are the best for everyone else as well.

      Yeah, wife & kids means you can't work in (some) startups any more. That's an opportunity gone in return for other opportunities taken. It's called a tradeoff. Married men pretty much have to get 40-hour jobs. Startups are for younger people than yourself, yes. That doesn't mean everyone who works at them is a monkey or a fool. Some sage advice from people our age who've been there and done that might help those people. An admonition to never bother just makes you look like a bitter old man. Often this actually indicates dissatisfaction with your own choices, symptomized by a post-hoc rationalization that no other choices would have been possible when in fact of course other choices are possible. You're the one talking about wanting a rewind button.

      You have one life and your time is indeed precious, from which point of view "My choice of employment mostly revolves around the hours I can do given my family commitments" is actually quite a sad statement to make if this really is what you love.

    9. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I've been prohibited from working OT for around five years now. Large company.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    10. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Command line tools, regexp, pattern matching? That's an unusual perspective on what makes for 'interesting tech'. Can you elaborate?

      He likes to use sed and awk.

    11. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Except having family commitments is an integral part of humanity, and is an important part of our primal needs. Working for a startup is.... working for a starup. Sorry, maybe I am putting my needs ahead of others here but raising kids properly is a far greater calling than working for anyone, anywhere.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    12. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      That's BS.

      I do IT support contract work. No one wants to pay overtime. NO ONE.

    13. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      "Interesting tech" is relative. It's whatever the individual is interested in using/learning.

    14. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The stark contrast between typical American tech jobs and what the startup netslaves put themselves through is hilarious. And when their gamble doesn't turn them into a millionaire, they're ready to blame the whole country.

      A new business that isn't a startup is the same as a traditional business; they don't want to pay overtime, and they don't want to get sued for back overtime later if they abuse an employee by not paying overtime just because they're on a salary. By law that salary is only for regular time, and an office worker isn't like a doctor or lawyer where it just might take more hours to finish the work; the company could let them go how after 8 hours, they're fully in charge of the schedule. Unlike a doctor's office, which might simply still have unseen patients.

      My advice, if they try to work over 40 hours without extra pay, fire them for it. They are clearly poor at analysis, you can't trust them to do the right thing, their performance is guaranteed to be lower than it would be on a healthy schedule, and they might even sue you for it.

    15. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by buddyglass · · Score: 1

      This may be a unique facet of Valley / Bay Area. I've worked at multiple startups outside that geography and there hasn't been an expectation that I work more than 40-45 hours/week.

    16. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      You have one life and your time is indeed precious, from which point of view "My choice of employment mostly revolves around the hours I can do given my family commitments" is actually quite a sad statement to make if this really is what you love.

      I find it more sad that you rate work, even doing something you love over time with family. Work to live, don't live to work.

    17. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who worked for one of those companies last year, they don't even have cubes anymore. The latest thing is just an open floor space, so if someone is flipping through a web page, another cow-orker can go and run to the boss to complain that they are not pulling their load. It also causes lovely distractions when someone wants to play with their latest nerf shooter right before a deadline, and focusing is impossible.

      As someone who has been in the business a while, I'm not surprised that the VCs are turning off the taps and moving their cash overseas:

      1: Ads are as intrusive as they can get, especially ones which require messing with them for 120 seconds before you can see content.
      2: The implicit condoning of malvertising has created pushback where the annoying ads from #1 have not.
      3: What more info can companies get? Apps like Waze and Uber have 24/7 real times of all comers. Add the ability to slurp contacts and other data, and what else is there? The /etc/passwd file?
      4: Less money for websites, and people are wanting website owners to be financially held accountable if one of the ad agencies uses their web page for malvertising.
      5: Everyone is advertising, nobody is buying.
      6: Outside of Internet ads, the economy, as a whole, can be summed up in one word: Flaccid. China's economy is stalled due to people not buying their stuff. European economies are in a stall due to the civil unrest caused by their new "guests" from the Middle East. Oil prices have gone up, but with Iran and the US exporting, it means countries have to produce more to earn more cash... thus driving down the price. The US's economy is insanely unstable due to the craziness of the election year [1], and the TPP has killed 100,000 jobs already, further worsening the situation. Gold and silver are spiking. VCs are better off investing elsewhere.
      7: There is a hard limit to people viewing ads. Even the web pages that have half a screen-full of content, and 150 screen-fulls of moving ads, there are only so many people who will go to that site.

      Want to know how to make money? Push OpenStack forward, because even though it is an extremely smelly pile of turds as of Liberty and Mitaka, it is getting better, and once this gets to a point where it can be used from a cast-off PC to an array of compute nodes, it has the power to change computing just like virtualization did.

      Other ways to make money... Embedded programming. You can't throw a bunch of H-1Bs with the latest programming language and expect them to be able to deal with hardware platforms where RAM and disk measured in nibbles and bytes, not GB and TB.

      Don't forget security. Eventually, after enough kicks in the noggin, companies and governments will start to realize they should actually bother to shut their barn doors. Real security stuff takes skill. Yes, real security... not what the suit wearing chatter-monkeys with the CISSPs are trying to sell you which makes a great security theater experience.

      All and all, it is good that SV is seeing this. Maybe it might spread to the video game industry, as it desperately needs another 1983.

      [1]: Local gun shops have to close their doors until the distributor trucks come by, because people buy -everything- in the store, and there just isn't anything to sell except a few pieces of tactical underwear.

    18. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And when their gamble doesn't turn them into a millionaire, they're ready to blame the whole country.

      I had a friend who got a receptionist job and became one of the early millionaires at Yahoo. She quit Yahoo, took her million dollars to buy a house in Silicon Valley and put herself through college to become a school teacher (her dream job). Friends from failed startups were extremely bitter at her for being one of the lucky ones. More so because she was in the right place at the right time and wasn't even a techie.

    19. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OP here. Sure. I realized back in the late 90s during college I loved UNIX and CLI tools. Over the years I have held a variety of jobs, all of them requiring heavy CLI time. I thought to myself why not get really good at regexp -- Perl, sed, awk, the built-in CLI tools that make short work of text-intense job requirements. I help people crunch through, sort, collate, paginate, pattern match, whatever. It's fun, rewarding, and keeps my love of the CLI refreshing and interesting. I use a GUI for browsing. Everything else is CLI for me. It's a love affair that some don't get, but for me, it's great.

      Other than the above, I try and script anything that requires doing regularly or semi-regularly. Some scripts are automatic, some are user-input driven, some are easy and fun scripts like photo manipulation scripts to rename all JPEG, JPG, to jpg, create a base name for the photos, and iterate them numerically. As someone who takes a ton of photos, this script as saved my hide many times.

    20. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dont be so reasonable. You really threaten the nice scheme of some really rich folks and millions of lazies who also benefit from the subjects of your criticism.

    21. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I work 40 hours a week, 8-5, Monday-Friday./quote. that's not 40 hours, just an FYI. No wonder you find regular expressions interesting technology, they're more difficult than multiplication.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    22. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Yeah, my favorite is the 24-hour hackathon (with free pizza) being a "benefit".

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    23. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have to be children. It can be ANY thing that is not work. Want to get out and actually DO something? Want to be something more than a slave to your boss?

      You will need a corporate culture that acknowledges that employees do something besides work for the corporation.

      Even game programmers like to get out of the office some time.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    24. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An hour of unpaid, not actually working time for breaks/lunch perhaps.
      Seems pretty standard.

    25. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      A new business that isn't a startup is the same as a traditional business; they don't want to pay overtime, and they don't want to get sued for back overtime later if they abuse an employee by not paying overtime just because they're on a salary. By law that salary is only for regular time, and an office worker isn't like a doctor or lawyer where it just might take more hours to finish the work; the company could let them go how after 8 hours, they're fully in charge of the schedule.

      That's nice, but Silicon Valley is still in California, and California has rather forward-thinking views on which employees qualify as exempt from overtime.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    26. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but you're not a lawyer and also didn't look it up and read about it in depth so you didn't realize that there are a bunch of caveats and that being "exempt" doesn't mean you're not owed overtime if you work overtime. It means there is a different legal principle, and it requires different evidence than just a time card. Being exempt doesn't stop your salary from being based on full time, or the requirement to pay overtime; it does mean that if you work 80 hours one week, and take the following week off (paid), then you're not owed overtime. And if the legitimate work requires more time for real reasons relating to the job, then you don't get overtime. If you make a mistake and it gets you behind, yeah you might have to stay late to fix it. But if your boss simply schedules you for 80 hours, or pushes you to work more than full time, then you're owed extra pay for that.

    27. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's BS. My contracts with Fortune 500s and the government do not forbid me from working more than forty hours, in fact they practically encourage me to seek out new opportunities and strike when I can.

      Then you get paid by the hour. Or at least somewhere someone's being billed by your hours.

      Because those of us who are salaried haven't been so fortunate.

    28. Re: Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free lunch is a big time saver. Free dinner is obviously a trap though. Midnight pizza had better come stuffed with mozzarella and wads of cash.

    29. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      That's BS. My contracts with Fortune 500s and the government do not forbid me from working more than forty hours, in fact they practically encourage me to seek out new opportunities and strike when I can.

      The contract may not explicitly forbid it, but it's essentially forbidden as the project manager won't approve the OT.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    30. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Your post is like somebody saying they got into construction because they like playing with hammers, when what they really like is building stuff.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    31. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      True, My salary pays for me to work up to 40 hours a week. If I get things done faster, then I come out ahead.

    32. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but you're not a lawyer and also didn't look it up and read about it in depth so you didn't realize that there are a bunch of caveats and that being "exempt" doesn't mean you're not owed overtime if you work overtime.

      It's true I'm not a lawyer, but I also don't know where you got this idea from. Every source I've seen, every HR department, and every lawyer I've spoken to on the subject has told me that "exempt" means exempt – you are not owed overtime pay under the law.

      The only issue is that the burden is on your employer to prove that your occupation makes you legitimately exempt.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    33. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You're not supposed to try to figure out "where [I] got [an] idea from," you're supposed to try to understand the idea.

      If you think that talking to the HR department is the way to understand worker rights, that is hopeless. Your user id is too low to hope for progress, or to try to explain it.

      If you even just read the business section for a decade, and read the articles about worker lawsuits, you'd know that "exempt" doesn't mean "free unlimited hours." The rate is by definition for full-time work. Claiming that you thought it meant 80 hours would make it a fraudulent contract. Full time salary only covers full time work. If the company schedules more work than that, they still have to pay overtime.

      Most States have a labor department of some sort that does outreach work like explaining these rules.

      What they're exempt from is being paid hourly. And they're exempt from overtime pay that would exist because of the math formulas written into those laws. Because they're exempt from a particular system of measurement does not mean they are exempt from other systems of measurement, which vary by industry and the actual professional requirements of different jobs. That is why it is different for a doctor, whose work load is at least partly beyond an employers control and is time-sensitive, and an office worker whose boss sets the standards and culture for what work is expected and could schedule it any arbitrary way. The more control the boss has, the more likely they are to owe overtime if they are putting pressure on the worker to work more than full time.

    34. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I enjoy what I'm working on, I can only get about a good 2-3 hours in per day. The mental effort that I put into what I enjoy wears me out. In those 2-3 hours, I'll make as much progress as most people would make in a week or ever. By the time I reach 30 hours of work, I'm useless. Stretching out a 40 hour week means I take a lot of walks during work and hang out at the water cooler. At first management didn't like this, but I reliably complete my work much quicker and get almost no bug reports for my code. I've been asked just not to be too distracting to others.

    35. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More than 40 hours just means negative value is being produced. Bring on the technical debt!

    36. Re:Tried the startup culture, hated it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good for you..... assuming you can provide food and shelter for your family. And, your income can fund a decent retirement.
      If so, you are fine. I know a LOT of people who bailed out of the Valley and gave me the 'lecture' about lifestyles, time with their kids, etc.
      After they work 12 hours days somewhere else, oh, and just above minimum wage, their kids schools are awful, and their wife complains she is surrounded by uneducated trash, they move back.
      By that time, they are priced out of the housing market and their IT/Programming skills are outdated... after all, Windows XP is still all the rage in Vermont.

      If you do check out, remember you are leaving Hotel California....

  6. What is old is new again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They're all too young to remember the dot-com bubble bursting 15 years ago. We're living in the same times.

    1. Re:What is old is new again by Desler · · Score: 2

      But but but all those VCs were telling us there was no bubble! And everyone knows that VCs are honest-to-a-fault people!

    2. Re:What is old is new again by Virtucon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I worked at a start up that was actually *close* to profitability. One Friday the board had a meeting to raise what was assumed to be the last round of funding before going public. The funds would be just to support operations until the IPO. Anyway, the company was already carved up so the board agreed to dillute the class A holders, the ones who started the whole thing. They forgot that one of those holders still had more interest in the company, he owned all the office furniture. So over the weekend he came in with movers and took all of the desks, chairs and filing cabinets. Of course they left all the contents, computers, books etc on the floor. It was a surreal Monday. I had 10 developers quit on me that day..

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    3. Re:What is old is new again by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      They're all too young to remember the dot-com bubble bursting 15 years ago. We're living in the same times.

      Agreed. Good news is, at least this time you don't end up having to compete against paper tigers who throw the right buzzwords at clueless HR PHBs, right? Okay, but not as much this time. Umm, okay... we're screwed.

      In all seriousness though, things have changed a bit since then.

      Back then, I remember in California (Milpitas to be exact) in 2001, and driving by a building that had a huge banner saying "Now hiring at least 500 MCSEs!" Mind, I was only in town for a bit of vendor training, but that sign scared the crap out of me. Knowing full well that the dot-boom was stumbling at the time, the sign said that said that in six months those 500 card-carrying certificate-holders would be out of a job, and a lot of them would get frustrated enough to move out of California.

      Worse still, that sign said that the company was only looking for paper, and not experience, skill, creativity...

      Fast forward to 2016. Nowadays, most hiring is handled through recruiters, and most of the interviews (at least all of the ones I've been to) demand skills-testing, and at least one sit-down/grilling with the people who would end up being your peers. I think that most of these kids in Silly Valley are going to be far short on the experience department, and probably knowledge (seriously - a kid fresh out of college is going to know some basics, know one language fairly well, and maybe dabble in some gee-whiz-super-fad language on the side). These folks have one big advantage over the rest of us (call it time-clock masochism), but consider: the companies that seek out employees who willingly churn for 80+ hours a week? Those are the employers that anyone with a brain would avoid like hell anyway.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    4. Re:What is old is new again by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      As somebody who was there, I have to say no to that. Everybody knew there was a bubble, and the VC argument wasn't that there was no bubble; it was that some people were going to keep getting very rich before it burst, and since nobody knew when it would burst and how many companies would survive, it didn't actually matter until it happened. And they were right on all those points.

      Like the recruiter on the radio, back in `99 said: there is a big worker shortage because of the bubble, and that doesn't mean that if you have a murder conviction you can find office work. That would still be hard. But if it was only manslaughter, lets talk.

    5. Re:What is old is new again by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      I wonder if his face misses his nose worse than he does at this point.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    6. Re:What is old is new again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I remember during that era, when I was in between jobs, being asked by a startup CEO to go and RIF half their employees. The CEO got all the employees out at a park for a lunch gathering, and while that was going on, I was to pull half the people out of AD, kill their badges, and report their license plates to a tow company (since their vehicles were considered unauthorized as they were terminated without notice, they would be towed off... a real nice surprise.)

      The CEO was expecting that when people returned from the picnic to have security guards drive off the laid-off people to the street.

      Well, I walked out and didn't take the job. Since nobody was removed from AD/security or on the tow lists, the CEO had to actually hand pink slips out, as opposed to just surprising people with their cars impounded. That week, a good number of people quit as soon as they got their cars out of the building's garage, and virtually everyone was gone a week later.

    7. Re:What is old is new again by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      Since he was diluted out of the company he actually had no pants..

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    8. Re:What is old is new again by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Ahh, he got cut down to owning literally nothing but the furniture? Yeah, in that case I'd have done the same.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    9. Re:What is old is new again by NetNed · · Score: 1

      That's the stupidity of people now a days. To them they think history started 2 years ago and don't want to listen to the lessons learned from past shortcomings. They deserve to go bankrupt on shear stupidity alone.

    10. Re:What is old is new again by Desler · · Score: 1

      VCs weren't claiming there was no bubble? O rly? I can find other links if you want.

    11. Re:What is old is new again by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I didn't say "no VC said."

      When people make general statements, they're talking about generally. You're arguing against the absolute statement "no VC said," which isn't what I said at all.

      I can also find people who say, "murder is OK if you kill the right person." And yet it is still true that there is general consensus that murder is bad.

    12. Re:What is old is new again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You had 10 developers quit a close-to-IPO company because they came in Monday and didn't have a chair? Y'all don't have Staples in the Valley? These developers would sacrifice quality of life for years, but not $500-1000 for a chair and desk? Methinks your company didn't stand much of a chance chairs or not.

      Come to Detroit. When I worked at Ford, I was inches away from buying my own fucking chair because the one they gave me was so terrible, and that place never even tried to promise I would get rich working there.

    13. Re:What is old is new again by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You have developers who think the company is a going concern, and everything's OK. They come in Monday morning and all their stuff is on the floor, and the word is going on that the board screwed the founders bad. Suddenly, things are not going smoothly, and there's a perception that top management has just screwed people over. Maybe some of those developers had stock or options, and suddenly found they'd been screwed too. Then they hear that the resignations have started, everything is looking doubtful, and it may be time to call that guy you talked to last week over lunch.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  7. woot by grub · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's like the late 90's again except we have cooler mobile phones.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:woot by Mattcelt · · Score: 2

      Bollocks to that. I would give anything to have my tap-to-text, 12-key keypad phone back again. I would much rather have a phone that does phone things - and only phone things - well, and a separate device that does all the other business.

      So stuff the 'cooler' mobile phones. Give me something that doesn't have to guess what I'm trying to type because it isn't designed for anyone with fingers bigger than a six-year-old's.

    2. Re:woot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      errm. Samsung sells them for 15 euros here. You cannot find one at your location ?

    3. Re:woot by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Bollocks to that. I would give anything to have my tap-to-text, 12-key keypad phone back again. I would much rather have a phone that does phone things - and only phone things - well, and a separate device that does all the other business.

      Then go and buy one. If you get something like a Nokia 203 or 515 you can even use it as 3G modem and tether to it. Otherwise it has a stand by tiome of about 8 decades.

      Give me something that doesn't have to guess what I'm trying to type because it isn't designed for anyone with fingers bigger than a six-year-old's.

      Well, no, I ain't going to give one to you. You'll have to part with cash and buy some of the very fine "just a phone" phones which Nokia has been producing continuously since the 90s without a break.

      Seriously you're the second person I've tolds about this recently. If you care so much about them why didn't you just use google and buy one?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    4. Re:woot by mrchaotica · · Score: 2

      I miss the Internet of the late '90s, before every company started trying to track, analyze and monetize everything I do.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:woot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nokia 203 or 515

      The first search results for those are M$ links, do not want.

    6. Re:woot by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      You clearly don't remember the Internet of the late '90s. Nobody actually misses it.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    7. Re:woot by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      On the contrary: I remember the default-gray backgrounds. I remember the "under construction" animated .gifs. I remember the Motif-esque beveled table borders. I remember the crappy Geocities webpages about people's pets.

      And if I could wish Facebook, Doubleclick, etc. away at the cost of accepting all that back, I'd make that trade in a heartbeat.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    8. Re:woot by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? That's when I got good at HTML 3.2 and that was all I needed. Good times. There wasn't as much stuff out there, but proportionately far more was stuff I was interested in.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  8. "Start-up executives are sobering up" by Nutria · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is why, once upon a time, executives were middle-aged men who'd had enough time to learn why profits are required for business to function.

    --
    "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    1. Re:"Start-up executives are sobering up" by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      They still are. Most companies, including most newly formed corporations, are not venture-funded "startups."

    2. Re:"Start-up executives are sobering up" by mongothesecond · · Score: 1

      Sure. Except startups arent quite businesses. They are investment "vehicles" that might one day become businesses.

    3. Re:"Start-up executives are sobering up" by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      Most of the execs at these companies are 40 something gen-x douchebags with rich friends.

  9. S curves and Economic Cycles Collide by Virtucon · · Score: 1

    It's funny that these start-ups don't understand that eventually the money dries up from VCs. You can only carve up a company so many times and dilute previous investors so much until you become worthless. It amazes me that the concept of a path to profitability completely misses some of these start-ups and usually the VCs are the ones pushing that from the beginning or are we talking Angel investors here?

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    1. Re:S curves and Economic Cycles Collide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's funny that these start-ups don't understand that eventually the money dries up from VCs. You can only carve up a company so many times and dilute previous investors so much until you become worthless. It amazes me that the concept of a path to profitability completely misses some of these start-ups and usually the VCs are the ones pushing that from the beginning or are we talking Angel investors here?

      The point of these start ups is not to produce something useful and make profits. The goal is to survive on VC funds until one of the standard profit making companies (ie Google, Microsoft, Oracle, Facebook, etc...) buys them up for whatever reason for a couple of billion dollars. The founders make out like barron robbers, everyone else gets shafted. Hey it's the new economy.

  10. Some advice by jgotts · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unless you are an executive, favor cash compensation, not equity. Make the decision for yourself how you want to invest your cash, if at all.

    Work for a company that is making something legitimate today.

    Work for a company that is making a profit, not wasting naive investors' money.

    Factor in cost of living increases for the amount of time that you expect to work at the job. Let's say for example that you're moving to a city in the Silicon Valley region. If rents are going up 10% per year in that city then what they're paying you is going down 5-10% per year in real terms. (As rents increase, the cost of everything else increases, too. As rents climb even higher, the cost of living is completely dominated by what you spend on rent.)

    F*ck Silicon Valley. It seems like no matter how high you get paid, you're screwed. Work somewhere where making $60,000 will allow you to live comfortably, in other words, virtually anywhere else in the United States.

    If you can't save any money, you're not living comfortably. You're just getting by.

    1. Re:Some advice by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Work for a company that is making a profit, not wasting naive investors' money.

      Why? If you're taking cash not stock, then the worst that happens when it tanks is you have to find a new job.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:Some advice by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing that the whole 'finding a new job', and networking like hell to make that easier, tends to be a bit of a timesuck.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    3. Re:Some advice by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing that the whole 'finding a new job', and networking like hell to make that easier, tends to be a bit of a timesuck.

      Yesbut most jobs aren't for life, so plenty of non startup jobs will require moving on if you want to go up the career (or pay) ladder, and etc.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    4. Re:Some advice by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      I don't even understand how equity compensation is legal. Insider trading is supposed to be illegal. And even if it were not, if I owned a company, I would sure as hell make sure that I did not bias any CEO I hired towards the operation of my company.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    5. Re:Some advice by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Yesbut most jobs aren't for life, so plenty of non startup jobs will require moving on if you want to go up the career (or pay) ladder, and etc.

      You're technically correct, but the issue lies within the frequency of job changes: do you want to jump to a new job every 3 months, every 6 months, every couple of years, every 5 years, or...? Startups tend towards the higher frequency, so...

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    6. Re:Some advice by larryjoe · · Score: 1

      Unless you are an executive, favor cash compensation, not equity. Make the decision for yourself how you want to invest your cash, if at all.

      Does it matter? Assuming we're talking RSUs vs cash, I can always sell the stock immediately.

      Work for a company that is making a profit, not wasting naive investors' money.

      I've worked for companies that have done really well and companies that haven't. If my job stability is at stake, that's a genuine concern. However, that often wasn't the issue. Rather, for me, the problem was often a matter of perception, snide comments, personal pride, and maybe stock price. But aside from those mostly inconsequential things, many of those less profitable companies were great places to work. For example, I worked at Sun for a few years. Everyone got an office (small, but always with a door and often with a window). I liked my coworkers, boss, and work. Hours were totally flexible (i.e., breakfast and dinner with my family everyday). Those things are much more important than the amount of money earned by rich people I don't know.

      If you can't save any money, you're not living comfortably. You're just getting by.

      I agree. However, each individual has to do the math. They key is how much money one can save without sacrificing expected quality of living. But this depends on one's level of compensation and arrival date in the area. There are a lot of people doing quite well in Silicon Valley.

    7. Re:Some advice by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Not to mention, you're required to act like you enjoy the company of a lot of dickheads.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    8. Re:Some advice by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The SEC considers me an insider at my company, so it is illegal for me to make deals to buy or sell company stock outside periods that last a little more than a month each quarter. This doesn't mean I can't participate in the Employee Stock Purchase Program, but that I have to set that up for six months at a time. As an insider, the real restriction is that I can't make decisions when I might want to. If I were toknow of some disaster that's going to happen tomorrow, IIRC I'd be able to dump my stock in about a month from now.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    9. Re:Some advice by ld+a,b · · Score: 1

      Post IPO, the timing to sell your stock based compensation is as soon as you can.

      There is no point in being a bag holder who can only sell four times a year.

      If you feel the urge to invest, buy some other stock with the money you get. While your employer may be great, it isn't the only snowflake in the NYSE.

      If you are Tim Cock, don't let your fruit holders know you are selling your AAPL to buy GOOGL, though.

      --
      10 little-endian boys went out to dine, a big-endian carp ate one, and then there were -246.
    10. Re:Some advice by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      As a general rule, it is a good idea not to invest too heavily in the company you're working at, because if things go seriously wrong you can wind up out of a job and minus your retirement savings simultaneously. Since I've got about 90% of my investments in other things, that shouldn't be a big problem. If you have a lot of faith in your company's future, the fact that you can't trade about two-thirds of the time is not all that important.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  11. Move out of Silicon Valley by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If these companies weren't hemorrhaging millions of dollars a month to lease office space, and attempting (if they even are) to pay their employees enough to live in $5000 a month apartments, maybe that capital would have a little more staying power, no? I'd be very afraid of investing in any startup who claims they have to be located in the most expensive real estate in America. "Silicon Valley" is a deprecated concept. The smart companies are setting up shop in flyover states, hiring employees who work remotely.

  12. Spoonrocket not a great example... by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

    I read about Spoonrocket. It is nothing but a restaurant that delivers food in San Francisco. In at least one review it was just not that good.
    I doubt that it's tanking is an example of downturn. It may just be that the margins where way too small for it to ever expand past a small number of cities.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    1. Re:Spoonrocket not a great example... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      I read about Spoonrocket. It is nothing but a restaurant that delivers food in San Francisco.

      The owner of FarmGirl Flowers, a flower delivery service with an ecommerce website in San Francisco, declined to do a on The Profit TV series because she thought it was worth a lot more as a tech startup.

      http://tycoonplaybook.com/2016/02/04/the-profit-marcus-and-farmgirl-flowers/

    2. Re:Spoonrocket not a great example... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read about Spoonrocket. It is nothing but a restaurant that delivers food in San Francisco.

      The owner of FarmGirl Flowers, a flower delivery service with an ecommerce website in San Francisco, declined to do a on The Profit TV series because she thought it was worth a lot more as a tech startup.

      http://tycoonplaybook.com/2016/02/04/the-profit-marcus-and-farmgirl-flowers/

      The FarmGirl owner is one paranoid chick. It's no wonder Marcus finally asked her if she's a man-hater.

  13. Slowdown? Wha Slowdown?! by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those of you who don't read The Wall Street Journal in the morning, companies are hiring in San Francisco.

    More companies in San Francisco plan to add new jobs in the next six months than in the last half year, according to a new report, bucking concerns about a tech slowdown and its impact on the region's economy.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2016/03/17/what-slowdown-san-francisco-execs-plan-more-new-hiring/

  14. Anxiety as a Service (AaaS) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Are you still being nervous? You don't have to! We rock stars and Einsteins at iSchizr are a startup focusing on the new cloud post-paradigm AaaS, or Anxiety as a Service that bends the neural hyperlandscape of all Bay Area startuppers! Why do you have to get nervous, while we get it for you but with 100x the enablement of our Anxiety Cloud? With our AaaS meta-platform, dispersonalization growth hacking is no longer hacking but happening, a crowd-to-crowd anxiety delivery phenomenon that nobody understands but everybody is anxious to get on board!

    Stop worrying that your are not worrying enough! iSchizr, the planet's new planet-sized empanickifier!

    1. Re:Anxiety as a Service (AaaS) by Verdatum · · Score: 2

      I don't fully understand how selling Anxiety as a service could turn a profit, but I do hear a lot about anxiety, so it must be pretty important! How do I invest!?

  15. Depends what you're working on by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Silicon Valley's recent host of me-too social media apps promoted by startups that end in 'ly' are due for immolation, but if you're working on one of the large scale development efforts that have a good chance of transforming society in as basic a way as the smartphone has, you don't have to worry about your job. An example: autonomous cars.

  16. Crabs in a bucket by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You realize that when their bubble bursts, it will get worse for everybody else to a lesser extent too, right?

  17. What's old is new again by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure why all the surprise. This is exactly what happened in the last tech bubble, people suddenly realizing they had to produce something which earned them money. They couldn't keep leeching off someone else to get their paycheck.

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" couldn't be any more clear.

    Looks like those smug, hipster millennials are suddenly having to face reality and they don't like it. Too bad.

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
  18. Reported incorrectly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think that considering just California and then labeling this a "tech bubble" that's bursting is myopic at best. The tech industry everywhere else in the country, nay, the world, is booming. The analysis is off--this isn't VC being less willing to risk, this is VC finding enough promising ventures outside of CA that they have to broaden their horizons to stay competitive.

  19. App appers by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Too many people think taking an old tired idea and adding an app to the mix will somehow make it fabulous.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:App appers by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      *cough* A Stanford School of Business graduate. *cough*

  20. dupe from 1999? by bjdevil66 · · Score: 1

    Haven't we seen this before? Tech bubble, "we need to actually turn a profit," etc.?

    1. Re:dupe from 1999? by Moof123 · · Score: 2

      No, the key was collecting underpants. Have you learned nothing?

  21. What Me Worry? by Bob_Who · · Score: 1

    Fickle venture capital dollars avoid human payroll and other operational costs at all times. Its about buying a golden goose, but only needing the golden eggs. If that makes you nervous then you're lucky to be working until they can lay some eggs. Once apon a time, people were valued assets, but now they've become a liability that increases with time.

    The market is fickle and income is increasingly unreliable. A 30 year mortgage will out live most any job or marriage 5 times over. Its absurd to not be nervous when you are part of a system that values money more than people - whether you are earning or spending. If you efforts can be owned in a patent or trade mark or a market brand or copyright or intellectual property, then all the better for faceless shareholders.

    Conversely, the people who continue to live beyond their employment should be nervous about the fact that when the music stops playing anyone left standing loses their seat in the game. I hate musical chairs. It's a cruel way to make kids nervous about attrition: certain death is inevitable. Winner take take all...of none....all by themselves...

    This is no way to run a society or a kindergarten unless you like the beautiful California weather on a nervous dystopia, of a highly skilled, transient population of dispensable indentured servants with big student loans and little spare time or strength to invest in their community. Grads slavishly rake in the cash for as long as it suits a bottom line in an anorexic economy predicated on perpetual growth in a very finite world. If this is scenario is the best incentive or conceptual model we can offer those participants in prosperity, then we should be very nervous. Silicon Valley careers are just like musical chairs, but the rest of life is like Monopoly: do not pass go, do not collect $200, but rent is due, just the same. We can't all be on top.

    Land lords have lived well since feudal times when life was grounded in the land of the lord of the manor. Serfs occupy land while they work for its bounty, and living was job your security. The fruits of labor were never used to eliminate jobs or people because there was little money involved in the equasion. When Capital is the fruit that we seek, then suddenly people are much more expendable. We need to value the rest of our reality or we will loose perspective and prosperity, overall. Its better if we can keep the music going and not all grab chairs all at once.

    Life has existed and evolved for billions of years before money grew on trees

    1. Re:What Me Worry? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      And that beautiful California weather you talk about isn't even in the Bay area, but down in Southern California!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  22. Wait... by argStyopa · · Score: 2

    ...so you're telling me that Twitter isn't actually worth $15 billion dollars?

    Phht.

    Next, you're going to tell me Uber's not worth $62 billion.

    --
    -Styopa
  23. OH NO! by NetNed · · Score: 2

    Oh my gosh, we feel so bad for them....


    Signed,

    No one in Detroit.

  24. Maybe start delivering products? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Maybe instead of begging for VC capital, these hot shot developers should focus on delivering actual products and turning a profit.

    It's you know, just a thought though.

  25. Is FuckedCompany.com back? by bigdady92 · · Score: 1

    Please bring this back. I miss this site and all it's wonderful gory detail about the crap that went on during the glory and dying days of the dot com bubble.

    --
    Wheel of Time: Book by Book and Sumview (summary review) Bigdady92 style: http://bigdady92.blogspot.com/
    1. Re:Is FuckedCompany.com back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please bring this back. I miss this site and all it's wonderful gory detail about the crap that went on during the glory and dying days of the dot com bubble.

      Can't bring it back; there isn't an app for that.

      What's wrong with you? Frickin' non-hipster.

    2. Re:Is FuckedCompany.com back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aw man that site was hilarious back in the day.

  26. Aw Jeez, not this shiat again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So in other words, it's 2001 all over again?

    Tech is a cyclical bubble; fueled by VCs who post huge gains on paper. The trick is to spot the "unwinding" when investors slowly cash out. Once they're out, they pull the plug and actual market forces take over and the tech sector tanks.

    This round is over folks, come back in 6-8 years when it starts up again.

  27. An actual startup autopsy site by BlackSupra · · Score: 1
  28. 1999? by unencode200x · · Score: 1

    The picture in the TFA looks like it's from the 90's, giant CRT and all. I think that's a freaking Gateway computer one of the guys is on. Weird.

    --

    Chance favors the prepared mind.
    Perfect is the enemy of good.
  29. Re: Speaking about 15 yrs ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The new techies on the block didn't know before postmortems on tech crunch, we had an entire freaking website that posted/explained the flame outs in silicon valley as well as the dot bust in general.

    Good times they were. And here we are again!

  30. poor spelling on web by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    clicking the postmortem link, one sees the headline
    SpoonRocket shuts down amongst on-demand apocalypse

    should one bother to read a webpage where the writers are so inept or careless as ? (I think they mean't amidst)

  31. Profit or Perish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Profit or Perish needs to be the standard for raising capital.
    Currently there are few consequences for executives that have a long history or failure. There seems to be too much emotion in the funding process and pie-in-the-sky thinking, and not enough rational analysis. When analysis does occur, the wrong weights are put on the projections, weights that help satisfy the wants and desires of the founders and investors and don't necessarily line up with history or economic models.