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Senate Bill Draft Would Prohibit Unbreakable Encryption (ap.org)

buck-yar quotes a report from the Associated Press: "A draft version of a Senate bill would effectively prohibit unbreakable encryption and require companies to help the government access data on a computer or mobile device with a warrant."
The two Senators finalizing the bill announced "No individual or company is above the law," saying their goal is to ensure compliance with court orders to help law enforcement or to provide decrypted information. The ACLU's legislative counsel argued the drafted legislation represents a "clear threat to everyone's privacy and security," and the bill is opposed by another member of the Senate committee, Ron Wyden, who says it would require "American companies to build a backdoor... They would be required by federal law per this statute to decide how to weaken their products to make Americans less safe."

267 comments

  1. Write your senator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is a good time to drop them a letter AND an email AND a phone call AND a fax while at it. Go on, do what's expected of you but too few of you actually do.

    1. Re:Write your senator by Z00L00K · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have no Senator, not even an Opel Senator.

      But if unbreakable encryption is forbidden then only criminals will use it.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:Write your senator by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is a good time to drop them a letter AND an email AND a phone call AND a fax while at it. Go on, do what's expected of you but too few of you actually do.

      I don't give them money, so they don't care.

      https://youtu.be/Ylomy1Aw9Hk

      Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Congressional Fundraising (HBO)

      Well worth 21 min of your time.

    3. Re:Write your senator by WarJolt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sounds similar to arguments the NRA has been using for years. Congress is not persuaded by logic. Let's add pieces to this. If all legal encryption is breakable then criminals would use unbreakable encryption, criminals would decrypt all law abiding internet traffic and Congress will be faced with the same reality China faces with the great firewall of China; Some tech just can't be regulated.

      I love it when nerds can emasculate politicians.

    4. Re:Write your senator by bigfinger76 · · Score: 1

      I love the exposure his show gives to big topics, but having to sit through his repeated attempts to be funny is grating. He desperately needs new writers (assuming the problem isn't Oliver himself).

    5. Re:Write your senator by Mister+Transistor · · Score: 1

      Coming later this week; Other impossible things that are to be criminalized!

      1) Perfect Vacuums

      2) Absolute Zero

      3) Black Holes

      4) Parallel Lines

      5) A wide variety of Perpetual Motion Machines

      We don't want them terrists to be violatin' the laws of Thermodynamics, Information Theory, etc. by using any of these things, um, improperly.

      --
      -- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
    6. Re:Write your senator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sounds similar to arguments the NRA has been using for years. Congress is not persuaded by logic. Let's add pieces to this. If all legal encryption is breakable then criminals would use unbreakable encryption

      So basically the satellite tv providers, cable, game systems and all the rest would have to use breakable encryption. Yah, that is going to work.

    7. Re:Write your senator by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      King Canute had an interesting way of demonstating the idiocy of assuming you can pass laws that pretend to change nature.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    8. Re:Write your senator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, as long they write the bill to stop "unbreakable" encryption, that's fine. No encryption around is unbreakable. Let them tilt at windmills, those idiots.

    9. Re:Write your senator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds similar to arguments the NRA has been using for years. Congress is not persuaded by logic. Let's add pieces to this. If all legal encryption is breakable then criminals would use unbreakable encryption, criminals would decrypt all law abiding internet traffic and Congress will be faced with the same reality China faces with the great firewall of China; Some tech just can't be regulated.

      I love it when nerds can emasculate politicians.

      It gets worse than that, due to the haphazard language they don't even realize they are using and if they want to outlaw something they need criteria for knowing that law was even ACTUALLY violated. The burden of proof is on them. The question is this, is this limited to encryption thy cannot break or does it extend to clever uses of steganography? If a terrorist sends an email saying "Allah be praised! I left that thing in that place I told that one mullah that time!"

      It comes down to political expedience more than it does being a protection of the safety of anyone in the free world. They will use this law to prosecute people they want to make an example of, in such a way that they cannot fight back. If I communicate something others cannot decode, I have broken the law? Really?

    10. Re:Write your senator by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      This is a good time to drop them a letter AND an email AND a phone call AND a fax while at it. Go on, do what's expected of you but too few of you actually do.

      I don't give them money, so they don't care.

      Well, they won't care AS MUCH. But if enough actual voters contact them about something, so that it appears to be an issue which could affect election, they might care.

      Campaign financing money has a huge influence, as Oliver notes. But short of outright election fraud, representatives still do actually need enough real people (not just rich donors) voting to get elected.

      Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Congressional Fundraising (HBO)

      Well worth 21 min of your time.

      I don't mean to be too critical, since I've watched this myself and agree with the problem -- but you know what would be a BETTER use of 21 minutes of your time? Write a letter AND an email AND a phone call AND a fax on an issue you actually care about.

      Oliver's piece is only informative for people who don't know any better -- short version: in case you didn't already realize this, Congress people spend a huge chunk of time soliciting donations. And obviously those people who make big donations will probably get the ear of representatives more.

      While Oliver can be entertaining at times, I'm not sure this message is really worth the 21 minutes -- better to actually get off your butt and do something. That's one of the problems I feel like happens with Oliver's program: he's drawing attention to big issues, but how many people end up just complaining about it on social media, but never go the extra step to try to fix anything? Or at least put forth a minimum effort to contact someone and complain about it?

      Yeah, you're not going to get as much attention from your representative as a rich donor. But if hundreds or thousands of constituents contact a representative about the same issue, it will be noted.

    11. Re:Write your senator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please DON't!!!

      Getting rid of unbreakable encryption will give us a great time. That encryption was spoiling everything.
      No longer an unbreakable encryption? It's absolutely a great dream come true.... Really!!!

      Your Russian Mafia "friends"....

    12. Re:Write your senator by delt0r · · Score: 1
      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    13. Re:Write your senator by Bitmanhome · · Score: 1

      To the contrary, if it gets more people to watch, then I'm happy to tolerate the cheesy jokes. The show is really an educational show, but if that was all it was, how many people would watch? With the jokes it becomes pop culture, and more people watch and learn.

      --
      Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
    14. Re:Write your senator by dryeo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sounds similar to arguments the NRA has been using for years. Congress is not persuaded by logic. Let's add pieces to this. If all legal encryption is breakable then criminals would use unbreakable encryption

      So basically the satellite tv providers, cable, game systems and all the rest would have to use breakable encryption. Yah, that is going to work.

      I'm sure they'll be exceptions for certain types of large businesses

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    15. Re:Write your senator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, I've written "my senator" on a piece of paper. What do I do next?

    16. Re:Write your senator by Tom · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Stop doing that.

      You are creating the false impression in people that talking to politicians has an effect. It doesn't. The few ones that listen come out and talk to us. The ones who hide see us as bothersome, because they understand the political process to be about money, money and also money. From the crazy election system and fundraising to the outright bribery and lobbyism, nothing matters if it doesn't come with a cheque.

      Writing won't fix this problem. The system is broken, so stop pretending the system works and there are only a few issues that don't quite work but with some mild gestures we can correct it.

      There's a point where being moderate is being evil, because it sustains the system.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    17. Re:Write your senator by TheReaperD · · Score: 1

      My Senator is Feinstein, one of the two authors. She is the enemy of security and privacy and has been for a long time. On top of that, she doesn't give a damn what her constituents think so trying to convince her something is a bad idea is futile. Her reply to people, such as myself, who spoke to her about SOPA was downright condescending and rude. I keep trying to vote the *ahem* out but, I keep getting outvoted.

      --
      "Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
    18. Re: Write your senator by Thor+Ablestar · · Score: 1

      Nerds can sometimes (one nerd for million) create something that generates so severe [beep]hurt for politicians that they are glad to tear all the hair from their heads, [beep] and [beep]. The PGP is the specimen.

    19. Re: Write your senator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be silly. You are correct that most of what we use on a daily basis is breakable, but they are going to write this thing for backdoors. That's been the goal for the past two years from the current powers that be. They've been pushing it hard and the Apple case was their wedge to push this in the media. There is a HUGE difference between very impractical to break and backdoors.

    20. Re: Write your senator by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Just like copyright is still considered limited even if it's enforced for a hundred years, all encryption is breakable - you just need to find some top of the line computers and brute force it for a few million years. See? Totally breakable!

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    21. Re:Write your senator by niftymitch · · Score: 1

      My Senator is Feinstein, one of the two authors. She is the enemy of security and privacy and has been for a long time. On top of that, she doesn't give a damn what her constituents think so trying to convince her something is a bad idea is futile. Her reply to people, such as myself, who spoke to her about SOPA was downright condescending and rude. I keep trying to vote the *ahem* out but, I keep getting outvoted.

      She is suffering from PTSD.
      Too close to the murder of Harvey Milk.

      This discussion note (it is not a bill) ignores the reality that congress mandates
      encryption in all manner of activities. The top two are banking
      and healthcare.

      Her note would mandate that the maker of the device be able to
      decypher ... this would outlaw most modern disk drives that commerce
      lives on. This would outlaw encryption in media players that protects
      content. This would outlaw WPA on all routers. This would outlaw the
      hardware that is currently used to secure NATO communications.

      Consider that it also outlaws paper. Paper can be used to encrypt messages
      (see Playfair) thus all makers of paper products must submit and
      decrypt messages sent via paper. And we may not be teaching cursive
      writing ... that may count as encryption too.

      She (Feinstein) has no clue....
      A kind person would call it PTSD and allow her to retire to a federal funded
      mental health facility and eat green jello.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    22. Re: Write your senator by DariusMacSean · · Score: 1

      Lol

    23. Re: Write your senator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kinda stupid, really. The encrypted text could take the total computing power of all the world a yeah to break, yet still qualify as not unbreakable.
      The One Time Pad is unbreakable, so it would be outlawed. But just about everything else is not unbreakable.

    24. Re:Write your senator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the government then

  2. OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    If this bill became law, it would be great for "black market" open-source encryption software.

    1. Re:OSS by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      If this bill became law, it would be great for "black market" open-source encryption software.

      Or, you know, to obtain encryption software from one of the other 200 countries on the planet.

      Or does the US Congress think that they pass laws for the whole planet?

    2. Re:OSS by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Or does the US Congress think that they pass laws for the whole planet?

      Was that a serious question? ;-)

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    3. Re: OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TPP and TTIP will take care of that.

    4. Re:OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, Liberals think that USA law applies to the entire world!

      Don't you follow the news?
      It's on all the Main Stream Media sites.

      Please try to keep up.

    5. Re: OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly! Only does a cretin everyone's privacy and security, threatens American business because they are hampered with a stupid law

      If this becomes the law in this country, I will just make sure to buy all of my software from outside of this country and I bet there will be a burgeoning business going and developing nations that have less control over their business

    6. Re:OSS by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Or just to implement your own from several encryption algorithms that are well known.

      There should be a "too stupid to govern" clause in the Constitution, whereby if anyone tries to pass a law to ban thermodynamics or make Pi 3, they are immediately stripped of all offices and powers, and banned for life from ever even entering a government or taxpayer-funded building again.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:OSS by fendragon · · Score: 1

      Oh, the irony! Remember when it was illegal to *export* strong encryption?

    8. Re:OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well it will be interesting to see how quickly the 96% of the worlds population who are NOT US citizens move away from US technology because it is deemed "unsafe".

      Or, it may see large tech companies split in 2, US based, non US based, or even shift out of the US all together.

      This law could be such a massive financial blow to the US economy that these companies are better served by looking after the 96% and abandoning the US market. The EU is the worlds biggest economy, China is still growing faster than the US will will overtake it in the next 10 or so years. Chinese debt is small compared to the US (hell China owns a lot of US debt). US wages in real terms peaked in the 1970's.

  3. Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Was this bill introduced with the intention of passing it, or was it done for election time?

    Many bills get introduced that have zero chance of passing, rather they do it so the Congresscritters can go back to their home state and say "I'm fighting for you, to stop those evil terrorists from threatening your family, vote for me!"

    1. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by sjames · · Score: 1

      So the call is between being simultaneoiusly draconian dictators and idiots or abusing their office for personal gain?

    2. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by click2005 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No this bill was introduced so when it fails and they introduce a slightly les offensive bill it will pass.

      Its like how people will vote for someone based on them being "not as bad as some previous guy"

      --
      I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
    3. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you geeks quite understand this about the FBI/Apple thing: Apple fucking lost, as far as the public is concerned. In pop culture, what happened was the FBI asked Apple to help them Fight Terrorists, Apple refused, and then the FBI beat Apple by breaking into the phone anyway. Pop culture considers Apple the losers: they tried to obstruct the FBI in their Noble and Just Crusade Against Terrorism, and the plucky l'il FBI found a way past Big Evil Apple.

      This law is a thing that the majority of Americans WANT.

      That needs to be repeated: the majority of Americans WANT BREAKABLE ENCRYPTION. The majority of people think Apple was in the wrong - something like 60/40 according to polls. So not an absolute majority, but not an insignificant one. Especially when it comes to politicians measuring which way the wind is blowing.

      Geeks are losing this battle. The simple problem is that people want encryption to be like a safe: a thing you use to keep The Bad Guys out, but which The Good Guys can still bust open if necessary. People flat-out don't want unbreakable encryption or perfectly secure phones. See that earlier story about the dad trying to get Apple to unlock his late son's iPhone. People side with the father. They want it to be possible to break into encrypted things.

      So, to answer your question, the answer is "yes:" they both intend to pass it, and (of course) it being an election season, to try and curry favor with voters. Of the two senators proposing this bill, only one is up for reelection this year. The other, Senator Dianne Feinstein (D), won't be up for reelection until 2018.

      But if you think they're currying favor solely by using the keyword Terrorism, you're sorely mistaken. Encryption is under attack from far more angles than just "the terrorists use it."

    4. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That needs to be repeated: the majority of Americans WANT BREAKABLE ENCRYPTION. The majority of people think Apple was in the wrong - something like 60/40 according to polls. So not an absolute majority, but not an insignificant one. Especially when it comes to politicians measuring which way the wind is blowing.

      What I don't think you understand here is that the opinion of the majority of Americans is completely irrelevant to what government actually does. Completely. Most politicians couldn't give two s**ts about what the public thinks. And although that is usually counterproductive, in situations like this, it is actually the right policy. The average American doesn't have any idea what encryption is or does; they just know that it magically keeps them safe. As such, their opinion on how crypto algorithms should be designed isn't important, because their opinion is not an informed opinion.

      To use an analogy here, the majority of Americans want flying cars. The fact that they won't know how to drive flying cars doesn't matter to them. The fact that it isn't currently technologically feasible to build flying cars doesn't matter to them, either. If government listened to those demands, they would pass a law saying that 25% of cars next year must fly. Doing so won't give us flying cars; it will just cause all American automakers to shut down because of their inability to comply with that law. Politicians know this, because they have listened to people whose opinions actually are informed, and as a result, they won't pass such a law no matter how many Americans might jump up and whine, "But I want my flying car NOW!"

      There are exactly two groups of people whose opinions matter in this case: law enforcement and the technology industry. Law enforcement's opinions matter because they're in the trenches, and they think they know what tools they need to get their jobs done. The opinions of people in the tech industry matter because they're the ones who can say whether or not what they are asking for A. is feasible, and B. can be done in a way that doesn't completely destroy the security of the system as a whole. Nobody else's opinion matters in this debate, because nobody else has sufficient knowledge of the ramifications of such a law (including, apparently, much of Congress).

      It would be laughable to allow government positions to be decided by a bunch of uninformed people merely because they scream their ignorance at a louder volume than the rest of us. That's the surest way to governmental collapse, and is the reason that most politicians quickly erect an intern-powered bozo filter around their inbox....

      Geeks are losing this battle. The simple problem is that people want encryption to be like a safe: a thing you use to keep The Bad Guys out, but which The Good Guys can still bust open if necessary. People flat-out don't want unbreakable encryption or perfectly secure phones. See that earlier story about the dad trying to get Apple to unlock his late son's iPhone. People side with the father. They want it to be possible to break into encrypted things.

      No, people want to be in control of their lives. Some of them wrongly believe that banning encryption will give them more control. We merely must educate them about the fact that doing so will actually give them far less control.

      In some cases, governments go too far in trying to create the illusion of control, such as many of the things our government did after 9/11. However, the people grasping for power after 9/11 were mostly unopposed. The airline industry has always been on the verge of bankruptcy, and they weren't about to try to fight the government to keep them from forcing all of those changes, because they wouldn't have survived. In contrast, the government is now going up against the three largest companies on the planet Earth (Apple, Google, and Microsoft)—companies that make essentially 100% of the world's smart

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    5. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... slightly less offensive bill it will pass.

      I don't know how they can make the phrase 'guilty until proven innocent' seem less offensive. Several countries have introduced such laws and it was only a matter of time until encryption received the wrath of fear-mongering politicians. The only difference being the USA calls it 'tough on crime'.

    6. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by Tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While I agree with you in general, you are too strict and don't understand the concept of democracy. Look:

      There are exactly two groups of people whose opinions matter in this case: law enforcement and the technology industry.

      That is a technocracy, not a democracy. Rulership by the people means exactly that. If people are uninformed, make them informed. That is the actual reason why we have representative democracy (i.e. parliaments and such), because a small group of people whose sole job it is actually has the opportunity to become informed and then decide.

      Of course, the current political system doesn't work that way because they don't (any of that), but at least that is the idea.

      People should decide, otherwise we end up in what we have in Brussels: A technocratic government completely detached from the people it governs making decisions purely on administrative merit.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    7. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      In principle, you're right. In practice, that won't work for subjects like this. You can spend your whole life studying crypto and still not fully understand everything. Even if we assume that the public is receptive to new facts about crypto (which isn't a given in a world of giant media echo chambers), making the general public informed about something as complex as crypto is just plain infeasible. For the public to make truly informed decisions on this subject, they would need to understand myriad concepts, including (but not limited to):

      • public-key cryptography
      • man-in-the-middle attacks
      • key escrow
      • forward secrecy
      • the history of security exploits against servers (e.g. Heartbleed)
      • the history of organized (and possibly government-sponsored) cyber attacks from various foreign countries
      • the fact that a hardware vendor has no more ability to crack into third-party software running on their hardware than the government does
      • the mathematical infeasibility of cracking crypto keys of various lengths using various algorithms
      • the use of cryptography as a tool for political dissidents, Christians living in anti-Christian states
      • the importance of cryptography in preventing corporate espionage (particularly by state-sponsored hackers)
      • ...

      If I spent an entire semester in an upper-division CS class teaching those subjects, I'd barely scratch the surface of what you need to understand before you can truly make an informed decision on the subject. And that's a semester when speaking to an audience of people who already understand how to write software, who understand how computers work, and who have a decent higher-level math background. If you truly want everybody to understand it well enough to form an informed opinion, you'd also have to teach the subject to people whose math background stopped before Algebra I and who think of Internet Explorer as "the Internet". This would be roughly like teaching a house cat to drive a car; it might be possible, but you'd spend so many decades getting there that you'd hopelessly piss off the cat.

      And if the public as a whole doesn't understand all of the things I just listed above (plus hundreds of others), then they are simply not qualified to understand the ramifications of decisions that the government might make about crypto. The best they can possibly hope to do is to vote based on which subset of experts they trust more, which basically boils down to a popularity contest, and brings us right back around to my original assertion—that the only people whose opinions should matter to politicians on such a highly technical subject are people with a solid understanding of the issue (on at least one, if not both sides). Everybody else's opinion is almost guaranteed to not contribute usefully to the discussion.

      And just to be clear, this isn't an "I'm smarter than the public" thing. Nobody knows everything about everything. If I go complaining to a politician about bridge construction standards, that politician should almost entirely ignore my opinion (unless I study it enough to bring facts to the table that they hadn't seen previously and which can be verified by experts in the field). They should also largely ignore my opinions on military tactics, automotive safety standards, economics (in general), and countless other topics for precisely the same reason. It simply isn't reasonable to expect the public to be experts in the field. That's why politicians are supposed to talk to experts and to get their opinions on the subject, and why we need politicians who are smart enough to at least halfway understand those explanations.

      What we seem to have in Congress right now are a bunch of technophobes who likely think that "The Internet is down" whenever IE crashes, and they're making technology policy. They not only don't understand it, but also don't want to understand it. They don't care about facts. They don't care that what they're

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    8. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Slight correction to the demifinal paragraph: "It simply isn't reasonable to expect the public to be experts in every field."

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    9. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Err... semifinal.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    10. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      In contrast, the government is now going up against the three largest companies on the planet Earth (Apple, Google, and Microsoft)—companies that make essentially 100% of the world's smartphones among them.

      Don't forget the worldwide #1: Samsung. Alone good for more than 1 in 5 phones. Google and MS are not even in the top-5. Windows Mobile is rather irrelevant and as Samsung and many others (e.g. Cyanogenmod) have proven already Android can be forked and bastardised just fine.

      Samsung are big enough that if they want to stay in the US market, they may release a special US version, with back door, and an international version with real security for the other 95% of the world. That failing, there are plenty of other non-US makers of phones, many of whom will be happy to include real security.

      It'd probably end up being just another step on the road to irrelevance for US-based smart phone makers.

    11. Re: Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So basically geeks are right and everyone else is stupid. We've known that for a long time now. What else is new?

      The thing is, they can't win this one. You can't change the laws of physics and you can't change math. You also can't make encryption work like a safe because breaking a safe is physical work, and breaking one safe doesn't automatically break all the other safes.

      As much as you're trying to troll you do make an unintentional good point though. The public needs to be manipulated to the right conclusions, and at least this time we have a lot of corporate money on our side, except maybe Microsoft and screw them and their H1B CEO with his spyware of an OS. Also, and this is important: it It used to be that geeks were separated from society. We didn't get reported on. We disallowed cameras and reporters at conventions. We did things people don't understand and we did them for ourselves because we wanted to. The only way to learn about them was to actually be curious and learn. The act of learning about how encryption works tells you why these people are stupid, political indoctrination not required, because you learn how things are and why. I think we really need to tell the rest of the world to go to hell and we need to keep our best stuff far away from them like we used to. We need to stop trying to be popular and start trying to be left alone.

    12. Re: Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bingo! Bait and switch. But honestly, did anyone really not think It would come to this. I'm just surprised the IoT hasn't been legally mandated on us yet. "For your safety, citizen, all devices must be connected to the internet and unencrypted."

    13. Re: Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      America isn't a democracy. I know a lot of people worked hard to make it seem that way.

    14. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're of the opinion that the USA is a democracy. It's not, it's a federated republic. The people don't rule, never have, never will.
      You're also conflating this case with ALL cases. This case needs to be decided on technical and law enforcement merits, and the uninformed masses shouldn't count. That doesn't mean all cases are decided the same way, which would be a technocracy.
      Besides, in what world can you simply educate the masses on an issue? People don't want to learn about anything that threatens their close-guarded feelings.

    15. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by Tom · · Score: 1

      This case needs to be decided on technical and law enforcement merits, and the uninformed masses shouldn't count.

      Bullshit.

      The uninformed masses should count. But they need to understand what they decide about. The role of the expert is that of advisor, not of decider.

      Besides, in what world can you simply educate the masses on an issue? People don't want to learn about anything that threatens their close-guarded feelings.

      Yes, but that is true not just of the unwashed masses, but also of the freshly washed subject matter experts.

      Can you educate the masses? Of course you can. They do not need to understand the mathematics of AES, and the relevant crypto concepts can be explained in one or two pages of text. What symmetric encryption is, what a cryptographic key is, what it means to have a backdoor to a crypto algorithm and what the difference to an escrow key is, etc.

      We managed to educate the masses about global warming, more or less.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    16. Re:Before everyone gets up in arms about this... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Of course the public can understand this issue. It's not like the one of Rijndael vs. Twofish and others I can't remember to be chosen as AES. They need to understand who can read their stuff under what circumstances, and then they can make an informed decision (probably not one I'd agree with, judging by polls, but that's another issue - if everybody does what I think best, it isn't a democracy, but I think democracy is the best available form of government, so nobody can consistently want everybody to follow me).

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  4. "No individual or company is above the law" by ark1 · · Score: 2

    Only government is.

    1. Re: "No individual or company is above the law" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Governments make and enforce the law. Therefore government IS the law. Nothing can exist above it. In a sense, government is God.

    2. Re: "No individual or company is above the law" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fictional and lets it's followers fuck with children?

    3. Re: "No individual or company is above the law" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The universe disagrees. And I think what these ass hats fail to realize is that their egos have grown to a point where they believe the universe is below them, but the universe doesn't care, it'll just do what it will do.

    4. Re: "No individual or company is above the law" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And that is the problem. No governmental person should be above the laws they pass, but its gotten so the boilerplate that sets up the law, has been specifically implemented so that any restrictive law they might pass, does NOT apply to the A-holes who will vote yea on it and the immunity probably extends to the end of their life plus 50 years. The end result is that we have about 540 people we voted into office, or which bought enough voting machines to get there, and about 100,000 (in round figures) working for the government agencies who cannot be held accountable for their actions no matter how vile the voting public thinks they are.

      IMO, whats sauce for the goose should be equally at home on the gander.

    5. Re: "No individual or company is above the law" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately for you, there's only one planet in the universe where you will ever live, and on this planet you can only live under the heel of the government.

    6. Re: "No individual or company is above the law" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone should ask those assholes why Hillary Clinton and Jon Corzine aren't behind bars if "no individual is above the law".

    7. Re: "No individual or company is above the law" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and all the others who lied us into wars that got many more people killed than anything you could possibly be talking about.

      Of course when right wing fascists break the law they're hailed as heroes by the Fox News crows. Hell, Oliver North ought to be rotting in jail and he was rewarded with sweet media deals.

  5. Oh yeah? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    GCv5c3FA9xfa7&aigJ

    1. Re: Oh yeah? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that was easy:

      f*ck yourself

      first rule of encryption: the cryptext must never reveal the length if the cleartext

      you're welcome :-)

    2. Re:Oh yeah? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I don't think they will be fooled by you speaking Klingon.

    3. Re: Oh yeah? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      touché

    4. Re:Oh yeah? by Mr.+Shotgun · · Score: 1

      HWLVTYRVYIAWHFYGPVFZCWH
      Also of note: "Go fuck yourself Feinstein!" and "Big Brother is watching you" are two strings of equal length, funny how that works out.

      --
      Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the (supposed) good of its victims may be the most oppressive
  6. Poor poor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    quantum cryptography industry.

  7. This bill would outlaw black holes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because black holes slurp information, but won't disgorge it.

    1. Re:This bill would outlaw black holes. by mrbester · · Score: 1

      Hawking radiation

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    2. Re: This bill would outlaw black holes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Information !!! Hawking radiation carries no information.

  8. Privacy, penumbras, and emanations by John+Jorsett · · Score: 2

    Didn't the Supreme Court discover a general right to privacy in the penumbra from the emanations of the Constitution? Whatever happened to that?

  9. Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We seem to have a bunch of politicians that are convinced the citizenry are fucking stupid.

    Don't live up their expectations.

    1. Re:Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by PsychoSlashDot · · Score: 1

      We seem to have a bunch of politicians that are convinced the citizenry are fucking stupid.

      Don't live up their expectations.

      Wish you weren't an AC, but still, people keep making that argument like it's somehow insightful or meaningful. It's not.

      You can make a parallel argument that making it illegal for companies to manufacture and sell personal nuclear weapons is "outlawing physics". Or that making it illegal to sell sarin gas is "outlawing chemistry". Or that making it illegal to distribute anthrax is "outlawing biology".

      Such a parallel argument would be equally missing-the-point. Just because a thing is possible to do doesn't preclude laws making that thing illegal to do, or to own. And while those laws may not make owning or doing that thing impossible, they can make it rare or difficult for Joe Average to do or own.

      --
      "Oh no... he found the .sig setting."
    2. Re:Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Such a parallel argument would be equally missing-the-point. Just because a thing is possible to do doesn't preclude laws making that thing illegal to do, or to own. And while those laws may not make owning or doing that thing impossible, they can make it rare or difficult for Joe Average to do or own.

      Except that in this case, the thing being made illegal is a piece of software whose source code has already been declared protected free speech.

      Even if Joe Average doesn't touch it, Joe McTerrorist sure will---thus defeating the entire purpose of this bill.

    3. Re:Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Math is different because it's way too accessible. Unbreakable encryption can be done with paper and pencil and taught to most fools.

    4. Re:Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Even if Joe Average doesn't touch it, Joe McTerrorist sure will---thus defeating the entire purpose of this bill.

      Not necessarily. The terrorists behind the recent Paris attacked sent plain text messages. Also, doing encryption right is hard. Joe McTerrorist might easily make a mistake, or he may run the software on a compromised device that intercepts plain text traffic.

    5. Re: Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ballistics can not be regulated but you can't buy a gun in the UK. Satisfied now? No matter what you geeks think, it takes only one signature on a piece of paper to break your back. Don't challenge authority if you would like to keep that general-purpose programmable computer you're so fond of...

    6. Re:Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      No, because a person can not at home create a nuclear weapon or gasoline with no ingredients whatsoever. They can however create encryption software with exactly 0 input from anyone else.

    7. Re:Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, your relating that argument to other fields makes me think more about the other fields. Outlawing math IS stupid. Maybe outlawing physics is ALSO stupid. So you are being insightful here, but not about outlawing math. We outlaw part of physics out of a fear of world annihilation, not to create a police state or a wedge issue during the political season. So there is an actual argument to outlawing part of physics that gives us pause, and isn't tied up in the personal freedoms that are used every day. To outlaw nuclear weapons, you only need to affect the freedom of a few people. To outlaw encryption, you need to jeopardize the security of everyone using a computer, and their freedom to speak privately.

    8. Re: Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you're just lying. What would be outlawed is Apple advertising this software as a defeat device and then refusing to help the FBI decrypt, with a warrant, specific cases. Apple made their bed when they advertised the iPhone as defeating law enforcement.

    9. Re:Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Even if Joe Average doesn't touch it, Joe McTerrorist sure will---thus defeating the entire purpose of this bill.

      Wait, you think terrorist suppression is the purpose of this bill?

      Oh, my. Good thing you weren't at Jonestown.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    10. Re:Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by PsychoSlashDot · · Score: 1

      No, because a person can not at home create a nuclear weapon or gasoline with no ingredients whatsoever. They can however create encryption software with exactly 0 input from anyone else.

      I hear you, but that's not meaningful. An insignificant number of people will bother. What is concerning to the government isn't that you, or I, or anyone else fluent in programming could write an encryption routine. What concerns them is companies like Google and Apple doing it by default, so that even incapable or incompetent enemies of the state benefit.

      That I could, theoretically, obtain and use fissile materials if I simply knew enough (and yes, that bar is high) isn't at all the same as the idea that every person is issued the parts to assemble a nuclear weapon at birth. Just add water.

      --
      "Oh no... he found the .sig setting."
    11. Re:Outlaw Math. That'll Work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Encryption is absolutely essential to the economy. If it gets outlawed, EVERYONE will figure it out, or face *total* fraud. The economy would be RUINED by the level of crime.

  10. Geo-blocking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Wikipedia's article on one-time pad will soon say "Unfortunately, this content is not available in the USA. Sorry about that".

    1. Re: Geo-blocking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why we have VPNs my dear Watson ;)

  11. Feinstein ain't no Einsten by Space+cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    She's just a paranoid old woman who's so scared about "the terrorists" that she's willing to give up ... what's the line ? Oh yeah, "essential liberty" ... sounds familiar somehow.

    I happen to work on De Anza Blvd, and I was looking out the window when the proverbial was hitting the fan with Apple and the FBI, there was suddenly a cavalcade of blacked-out sedans overriding the lights sequence, with police blowing their horn as someone (my assumption here is that it was the senator, no-one else really gets that level of police co-operation) halted the normal traffic lights sequence so this entire entourage could turn into Infinite Loop.

    So, Diane was going to yell at Tim. I have some reasonable hope that Tim told her to stick it where the sun don't shine, but I think he's more polite (not to mention politically astute) than I, so I'm sure he came up with a gentlemanly way to say it.

    The good news is that she won't be re-elected because she's not going to run any more. She's too old (thank $deity) so we have a chance of getting someone in who isn't a complete fucking moron when it comes to national security. There's no way this state will elect a republican, so we're stuck with her until then. She gets a lot of votes, and I really hope that's just people voting along party lines because if people actually *want* her policies, well... shit, time to leave.

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:Feinstein ain't no Einsten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Feinstein is not up for election until 2018. Burr up for election this year though, but polling looks like he will win easily. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_in_North_Carolina,_2016#Polling

    2. Re:Feinstein ain't no Einsten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, she is from California. They will elect another big government Senator that doesn't care about the little people at all and will take more rights away. Anyone running against the new liberal will be called a racist and terrorist supporter for allowing them to have encryption. You will see the story on John Oliver or Daily Show and wonder why such a horrible racist would be running and then you will actively campaign for the new liberal calling everyone who doesn't support your new similar candidate a racist.

      Don't believe me? Look at any article on /. about Trump and his attempting to enforce EXISTING REASONABLE LAWS. Federal government in the US is a failure and there is no way to fix it.

    3. Re:Feinstein ain't no Einsten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Israel > America

      Shes a zionist cunt that's for sure.

    4. Re:Feinstein ain't no Einsten by lhowaf · · Score: 0

      As much as I think Feinstein is a twat, I think this is part of a clever ploy by the Democrats to establish a precedent for gun control.

      This is about making the manufacturer responsible for damage done with their products. If they can get this law passed (with Republican help - because terrorists), they will have the footing to say gun manufacturers should be held accountable for crimes committed with their products.

  12. Deal by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 1

    No encryption is unbreakable, it just takes a rather long time with current knowledge and technology.

    1. Re:Deal by qeveren · · Score: 4, Informative

      A one-time pad is pretty close, in that you can never really tell when you've actually decoded it.

      --
      Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
    2. Re:Deal by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      Actually one time pads are unbreakable if you do it right, but they're rarely used in practice because they're inconvenient. But there still were some practical cryptographic systems using them.

    3. Re:Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One-time pads are theoretically unbreakable, if the pad is generated with a truely random generator and each pad is used only once (hence the name). Just about anyone can make and use them fairly easily*. Of course, they would be suitable only for shorter, infrequent communications and each end would have to have a copy of the pad, which somewhat limits their usefulness. But sometimes, a short, critical unbreakable message is all that's needed (like "attack the building at midnight").

      * For random numbers, it might be enough just to flip through a phone book and use the last digits of coin-toss-selected listed phone numbers, as an example.

    4. Re:Deal by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      It's not pretty close, a genuine OTP is unencryptable. The phrase is "information theoretic security".

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  13. How do you prove "unbreakable" encryption? by klubar · · Score: 1

    I think this is a sibling to the halting problem". I think that there have been any number of "almost" unbreakable encryption, but as long as you want your encryption to be un-encryptable there's a problem here.

    Perhaps we should just ban encryption that can be unencrypted.

    1. Re:How do you prove "unbreakable" encryption? by C3ntaur · · Score: 1

      Good point. Any prosecutor or law enforcement official with an axe to grind could point at any random string of characters they found on anyone's device, and say, "Look! Unbreakable encryption!"

      --
      Loading...
  14. feck off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I run my data center in Ireland.

  15. Breakable for one, breakable for all. by headkase · · Score: 2

    They don't get the inherent flaw with "breakable" encryption: if the government can break it then so can third-parties. Which may be other governments. Like China looking for industrial secrets. Hell, even right now you know that encrypted channels of every kind are being recorded for the inevitable day quantum computing becomes a reality and they can then be decrypted after the fact.

    --
    Shh.
  16. Oh good, only one time pads banned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everything else is trivially breakable with a finite number of operations.

  17. Ban by Wowsers · · Score: 2

    Ban unbreakable encryption. Politicians proving once again they are dangerously uneducated. About time you stopped electing people with socially useless law and politics degrees.

    --
    Take Nobody's Word For It.
    1. Re:Ban by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ban unbreakable encryption. Politicians proving once again they are dangerously uneducated. About time you stopped electing people with socially useless law and politics degrees.

      This is actually good news.. if unbreakable encryption is illegal, then that means that breaking onto bank accounts and stealing money is doable.. so Profit for all of us that are not in the 1%! See the economy is suddenly going to get better for us! /BlisteringSarcasm

  18. Good by shawn2772 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is good. Not the bill, but this is the correct place for this debate, in the legislature, not the courts. Now we just need to make sure it loses, and for the right reasons.

    1. Re:Good by ftobin · · Score: 1

      Losing in the courts provides precedence. Losing in the legislature means the same proposal gets re-introduced 10 or 20 years later.

    2. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know if the precedence is considered in the US the way it is considered in some other countries, but precedence of the previous law should be annulled after a new law is passed to replace the old one. Is it so in the US as well?

    3. Re:Good by shawn2772 · · Score: 1

      Losing in the courts provides precedence. Losing in the legislature means the same proposal gets re-introduced 10 or 20 years later.

      Not true, not unless the courts decide it's actually unconstitutional, not just unlawful. And if they're going to decide that, it can happen any time, and in fact the quickest way to provoke a constitutional challenge is with a law that directs the government to do something unconstitutional.

    4. Re:Good by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      This needs more upmods. As an extension to ftobin: Losing in the legislature twice in 10 years means the legislation will be introduced at the state and local levels, leading to "You can't bring your fooPhone into New Jersey because it has encryption."

    5. Re:Good by ftobin · · Score: 1

      Precedence, as generally used in this context, is not given by law, but by judicial review of law (the judicial branch is separate from the legislative branch, which passes laws). So an assumption in your statement, "precedence of the previous law" doesn't quite fit in the US.

  19. Next up: ban on exceeding the speed of light by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All encryption can be broken with enough time and compute power.

    1. Re: Next up: ban on exceeding the speed of light by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can do it with just two digits. After you break/cut one off, you only have to take hold of another for the passwords to magically appear.

  20. Cameron vs Panama Papers by flyingfsck · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Congressmen should speak to PM Cameron of the UK about the need for privacy and encryption. He seems to have gotten a change of heart following the Panama Papers leak. Anyhoo, all encryption is breakable. It may just take a while...

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  21. The Best Argument Against by kackle · · Score: 1

    One point I never see made is that, yeah, we may trust this government with our lives/security/privacy, but the issue I think the founding fathers saw was that if you "let such cats out of the bag", the horribly evil government that's in place 25 years from now will have total, unretractable control - "we the people" would, then, have no recourse.

    1. Re:The Best Argument Against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that we should move past the childish trust in an institution that has repeatedly violated that trust (this bill is but the latest attempt to erode our rights). The federal government has already become 'horribly evil'.

    2. Re:The Best Argument Against by quintessencesluglord · · Score: 1

      I think any government demanding something like this is inherently untrustworthy.

      They are arguing that you shouldn't be allowed to express your thoughts by virtue of not being selective with your speech. I mean the Big Brother tropes have played out in a frightening parody, making it illegal to escape the tv screen. No one is above the law.

      Except who does the law really serve? Forbidding people to keep secrets is just kicking in the doors to people's mind. And for what? There is someone even worse who would like to do the same?

      Ask the people affected by the OPM hack if they would have liked unbreakable encryption. And I'm going to trust these fools to safeguard my privacy?

  22. Second Amendment Issue? by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Follow along with me:
    Cryptograghy is subject to ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations)
    This means the Federal Government treats Cryptography as an Armament
    What does the second amendment say: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"
    Hey NRA time to step up and defend the Second Amendment against the heinous assault. Slippery slope and all. You don't want these guys coming after your guns do you.

    1. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG... brilliant!

    2. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Maybe you can use this line of reasoning to finally getting the ACLU to defend the second amendment. Or is this just a lame attempt to shit on the NRA?

    3. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 1

      The ACLU does defend the Second Amendment. The ACLU interprets the Second Amendment's reference to "a well-regulated Militia" to mean a collective right, rather than an individual right. Which means the ACLU would probably not agree with my line of reasoning whereas the NRA interprets the Second Amendment as promoting an individual right and would be the more appropriate civilian advocate to defend our right to use encryption on an individual basis.

      So NO, not an excuse to shit on the NRA but an appeal to the advocacy group that professes to care about my individual rights when it come to the Second Amendment.

    4. Re: Second Amendment Issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NRA member / lifetime gun and computer nerd here. I'm sure you were aiming for the funny button, but I for one think you hit squarely on insightful. This actually sounds like a reasonable justification as to why the government can't ban encryption. If the common soldier uses military grade encrypted comms, so should the militias, that is to say, The People.

    5. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by Feral+Nerd · · Score: 2

      Follow along with me: Cryptograghy is subject to ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) This means the Federal Government treats Cryptography as an Armament What does the second amendment say: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" Hey NRA time to step up and defend the Second Amendment against the heinous assault. Slippery slope and all. You don't want these guys coming after your guns do you.

      OMG... brilliant!

      Prior art: https://xkcd.com/504/

    6. Re: Second Amendment Issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The level of cognitive dissonance required of the ACLU to stand on that position is truly staggering. It's clear they can't be counted on to understand plain English, let alone be successful defenders of our civil liberties.

      If they don't agree with us having this enumerated right, my respect meter would be bouncing off the peg if they just came out and said so. At least I could disagree. Supporting a collective right, when the language itself doesn't advocate for that? The height of idiocy.

    7. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by BitterOak · · Score: 1

      The problem is the 2nd Amendment doesn't guarantee the right of the people to possess any and all armaments. Try storing nuclear weapons in your basement, for example. I think the 1st Amendment provides much greater protection from laws such as this. Software, and specifically source code, has been classified as protected speech by some courts, so encryption software might receive some protection on those grounds.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    8. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      So... $200 tax stamp required, along with finger prints (another $75) passport photo ($10) and a 3 month to 2 year wait for your request to be processed. For each algorithm you want to use.

      Of course, they could always close the registry to new additions, like they did with machine guns in 1986 and create an artificial limit... "Hey, I have a domain and a SSL certificate. Before the closure you really couldn't sell 'em since they had no real value, but after the closure it is gonna cost you $20k".

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    9. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Cryptography as an Armament.

      P Zimmerman got it converted to protected speech. I doubt the USA would have been able to keep strong cryptography hidden for much longer in any case. Now, it's too late to wind-back the clock and pretend the USA can own encryption technology.

      ... NRA, time to step up and defend the Second Amendment ...

      Nobody can sell cryptography, so the NRA will do fucking nothing. The NRA stopped being a voice for gun-owners, twenty-five years ago. Even Fox news is demanding that mentally ill people don't have guns but nothing changes. It's a simple enough policy: Identify the mentally ill and take guns off people. But the US government won't do the first step and the citizenry won't do the second step.

    10. Re: Second Amendment Issue? by anegg · · Score: 1

      Isn't the NRA being a voice for members of the NRA specifically, and not necessarily a voice for all hi owners? Senator Feinstein is reputed to be a gun owner, for example, yet the NRA is unlikely to be thinking that they are HER voice. If the NRA publicly takes positions that too many members disagree with, wouldn't those people either quit their memberships or act within the bylaws of the organization and elect officers who would change the NRAs public positions? From what I have seen, the NRA takes positions that are sometimes very nuanced and which require a deep understanding of the issues and fundamental rights of Americans to debate the stands that they take. You appear to be assigning a purely commercial motive to the NRA's public positions, yet offer no rationale as to why the NRA members continue to pay their dues (now being raised even) if the organization is not representing their interests. Your thoughts?

    11. Re: Second Amendment Issue? by Agripa · · Score: 0

      The ACLU's position is a practical one even though it undermines at least every other right which uses the term "people". When the ACLU was formed, one of the requirements from a major donor was that they *not* defend the 2nd amendment as an individual right.

      That's right. The ACLU's position on the 2nd amendment was bought with money. How virtuous they are.

    12. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by buck-yar · · Score: 1

      Heller vs DC said the 2nd is not unlimited and subject to regulation.

    13. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's amazing is actually how many amendments apply to this one thing, and how they all protect it: 1st, 2nd, 3rd(there are arguments to be made about this), 5th.

    14. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      The ACLU does defend the Second Amendment. The ACLU interprets the Second Amendment's reference to "a well-regulated Militia" to mean a collective right, rather than an individual right.

      Which is why they don't defend the 2nd Amendment. Nobody believes that it's a "collective right" (whatever that would mean, anyway). The people who wrote it made clear it was an individual right, and recent Supreme Court interpretations have upheld it as such. I know the anti-gun-nut hate that, but, well, welcome to reality.

      A liberal friend of mine who understands the 2nd Amendment likes to use this analogy, which is fitting:

      "A well-educated electorate being necessary to the preservation of a free society, the right of the people to own and read books shall not be infringed."

      Does that statement sound like something that could be used to prevent ownership of books by individuals?

    15. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 1

      Until 2008 and the appearance of an activist conservative court the Supreme Court had not found an individual right to own firearms in the Second Amendment. Until then the Supreme Court had interpreted the Second Amendment as only applying to the Federal Government and that States had the right to regulate firearms.

      Citation: https://www.loc.gov/law/help/s...

    16. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      Until 2008? LOL. When it was written 220 years ago it was definitely an individual right, and the guys who wrote it made that clear. Looney leftists hate that, but, well, reality isn't real friendly to them...

    17. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but the "looney leftists" on the Supreme Court didn't interpret it that way until 2008 after the NRA and their backers, Remington and Winchester threw millions of dollars at politicians. Prior to the '80s the NRA was small organization primarily composed of local hunters, the gun and ammunition manufacturers threw millions at the NRA and turned it into a lobby promoting all sorts of gun rights.

      So sorry if your world view doesn't coincide with reality.

      Now personally, even though I am in your book a "looney leftist", I believe that the founding fathers intended it to be a personal right/obligation to own firearms but only because they knew that when the Continental Army was formed they had no funds to equip the militia with firearms and believed that if the common man did not have the firearms the country would never be able to defend itself from foreign invaders.

    18. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SCOTUS occasionally gets it wrong, and sometimes that stands for a long time. Or perhaps you would prefer that the Dred Scott decision were still the law of the land?

      Sorry, but the "looney leftists" on the Supreme Court didn't interpret it that way until 2008 after the NRA and their backers, Remington and Winchester threw millions of dollars at politicians.

      If you have evidence showing that any of the SCOTUS Justices took money from Remington, Winchester, or any other entity in return for a favorable ruling, I'm sure the national media would be extremely interested. Otherwise, you have conflated the traditional vices of the legislative and judicial branches. US legislators certainly take in quite a bit of (questionable) monies from all sorts of (unseemly) interests. In contrast, SCOTUS Justices, not needing to concern themselves with campaigning and re-election, do not.

      Prior to the '80s the NRA was small organization primarily composed of local hunters, the gun and ammunition manufacturers threw millions at the NRA and turned it into a lobby promoting all sorts of gun rights.

      While you're generally correct about the historical demographics of the membership, the NRA supported the 2nd Amendment as an individual right for all, specifically including self defense, well before the 1980s. All you have to do is find some old issues of "American Rifleman" magazine to confirm this for yourself. Perhaps your local library has some available. There's a section titled Armed Citizen (usually one page) near the front with reprints of news articles where a citizen defended himself or others with a lawfully owned firearm, often without firing it.

      The NRA was founded in 1871 with a focus on marksmanship, not hunting - obviously one needs good marksmanship to be an effective hunter, but hunting was not the original intent of the organization. That said, the NRA did grow to focus more on hunting rights than on pure 2nd Amendment rights in the early 1900s, but given the composition of the membership at the time, that shouldn't be surprising. They even supported the 1934 and parts of the 1968 federal gun control legislation. That stance changed in 1975 with the establishment of the NRA-ILA, not as a result of monied interests from Remington, Winchester, etc., but due to growing concerns over gun control legislation, mostly at the federal level, but also increasingly at the state and local levels. The Second Amendment Foundation and Gun Owners of America were also founded in the mid-1970s, not at the behest of arms makers, but due to concerns over problematic (in their view) gun control legislation.

      It should be noted that one of the long-held euphemistic criticisms of the NRA by supporters of an originalist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is that "NRA" stands for "Negotiating Rights Away". That critique was rooted in the NRA's willingness to trust the US government to be reasonable, even as officials such as Janet Reno openly declared a need to eliminate civilian ownership of firearms which "have no sporting purposes". The 2nd Amendment isn't about the "right to track and take game". In recent years, the NRA has been more active in defending 2nd Amendment rights, and that euphemism seems to be fading.

      FWIW, I'm not an NRA, GOA, or 2AF member, but I've started to give it serious consideration in recent years.

      - T

    19. Re:Second Amendment Issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so now youre not even bothering to hide your racism behind dogwhistles anymore?

  23. bullshit abounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    so the Congresscritters can go back to their home state and say

    no, this is a trial balloon, they'll keep trying over and over again until they pass it at 4:59 pm before a holiday

  24. As a European, I'm all for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe we can use this gaffe to kickstart European replacements for American tech companies. Oh who am I kidding, we'll fall in line.

    1. Re:As a European, I'm all for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember the French (and others) GSM encryption limitations? Yes, "we the Europe" don't care about privacy, in an adult really way. Particularly after an external conflict causes a conspiracy aiming for a military cue.

  25. Hahaha by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    It's pretty rich when someone who has seen the stuff that the Senate Intelligence Committee gets glimpses of would actually claim that nobody is above the law.

    Of course, this is Feinstein, wicked witch of the west, so of course she would.

  26. So they'll be arresting Senator McCain then? by istartedi · · Score: 1

    I'm given to understand that he couldn't be broken. Plainly a threat. Lock him up.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  27. They brought this on themselves by sjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The NSA and FBI brought this on themselves. Before all the spying on everyone, parallel construction, and warrant less use of stingray plus secret courts, nobody was all that much interested in consumer products with unbreakable encryption.

    If they want to blame someone for this, they need to look in a mirror and understand that their operations are just plain creepy and incompatible with a free country. They are starting to smell like the Stasi and a significant portion of the citizens of this country don't care to give them any more of a foothold.

  28. Senator must go! Priced to move! by macsimcon · · Score: 1

    Republicans, are you looking for a senator who shares your values? A richer-than-fuck mucky-muck who will fit right in with the corrupt Wall Street crowd? Maybe you need a stooge who will rubber-stamp every authoritarian defense industry and law enforcement wet dream?

    Pick yourself up a Senator Feinstein today! We only have one left, and we sure as fuck don’t want her in California. I know, she’s a “democrat” but that’s really in name only. She shares your values more than Grassley or Graham, and her whole career is a massive conflict of interest. You’ll just love her.

    Ohall sales are final. No refunds, no returns.

    1. Re:Senator must go! Priced to move! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually she is a typical authoritarian "my way, or the highway" liberal. Aren't the Democrats the party of intolerance and obedience through lawmaking and police state enforcement tactics? Let's not forget that the Democrats were the party of the KKK during its founding. Doesn't history suck?

      I'm a Libertarian so I have absolutely no love for the Republicans. But, please don't try to denounce Feinstein as not being one of you.

      The truth is that Liberals and "Conservatives" are both anti-Constitution (free speech, gun rights, warrantless wiretaps, search & seizure protection, civil rights, etc.), anti-civil rights, anti-free commerce, and PRO big authoritarian government.

      If you truly want change, you need to vote for a non-establishment swine candidate. Right now your only true choices are Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders.

    2. Re:Senator must go! Priced to move! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, you "sure as fuck don't want her in California" so hard that you've been reelecting her for almost a quarter of a century.

  29. Is there a time limit? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    With the exception of one time pads(which are mostly too clunky for practical purposes: it's handy that there is a mathematically rigorous way to 'get a rain check' and use the fact that you were able to transmit n bits across a secure channel at some point in the past to secure up to n bits of communication over one or more occasions in the future; but actually having a known-secure channel even once is frequently a luxury you simply never get); they don't make encryption in 'unbreakable', just in 'far too tedious to be usefully breakable'. Did our glorious senators remember to specify that starting a brute force attack when ordered to provide customer data; and promising to deliver the data just as quickly as it becomes ready, does't count as compliance?

  30. Legal Politics Needs Encryption by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

    How would our political process function if one party knew what the other party would do next?

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
  31. Go Super Max by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pass the law that makes all encryption on personnel communication devices punishable by death, and fulfill the promise.

    No More Secrets

  32. careful what you wish for by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

    Who knew that this is what they meant with the most transparent administration ever ;-) Before people get spun up and rant that Romney would have been worse (as if two wrongs make a right) I'm not suggesting that the Republicans would be better. I am suggesting that both the D & R parties do not have the average citizen and especially not the middle class in mind and privacy is just one of the ways that they screw us over.

  33. nothing to hide nothing fear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    then any correspondence from any branch of the government should be out in the open for anyone to read

  34. Crypto-ransomware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Government's attack on cryptography is not meant to protect citizens. The ability to intercept all communication is a thinly disguised, power grab. If government wants to protect citizens, it should start by attacking crypto-ransomware.

    Crypto-ransomware is a real and growing threat to every person and organization on the internet. It is already being used to attack hospitals, businesses and individuals. There are already many more attacks via ransomware than conventional terrorist techniques.

    Crypto-ransomware is quickly becoming the weapon of a new breed of terrorist. Why isn't this threat foremost in the public discussion?

    Law enforcement needs to target real threats, and stop attacking public cryptography scapegoats.

    Of course, this wouldn't give them the same power rush as having access to your emails.

  35. Fuck that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck that!

  36. Ban it? by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    If you own hardware or software that is securely encrypted, then you will be committing an offence. That's how they get round that problem. Whether that's sustainable in court is up to debate - doesn't it constitute free speech? - but it will keep a few people cowed.

    1. Re:Ban it? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      If you own hardware or software that is securely encrypted, then you will be committing an offence.

      I won't be committing an offence regardless of how silly the US Congress is in this case, since I'm not in the US or subject to their jurisdiction. Isn't that the point here? The rest of the world is going to carry on trying to promote security and privacy with new technology. If the US government is more concerned about spying on its own citizens than about helping them to promote their security and privacy, the rest of the world will simply leave the US behind.

      (I don't really expect this to happen, BTW. It looks like electioneering propaganda from here, not a serious proposal that anyone really expects to become law. And sadly we've been seeing this sort of short-sighted politics in other countries as well lately, including in my own.)

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    2. Re:Ban it? by fyngyrz · · Score: 2

      It looks like electioneering propaganda from here, not a serious proposal that anyone really expects to become law.

      If you hadn't already said that you weren't in the US, I'd know it from this remark. The US, I am very sorry to tell you, has an incredible overabundance of absurdist, foolish, ridiculous, unconstitutional, and otherwise (cough) "serious" laws.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    3. Re:Ban it? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      It will keep many *businesses* cowed, which is more important. That's how strong encryption gets out into the general public... companies who built it into their apps. Without businesses and encryption for everyone by default, the "herd immunity" of general encryption adoption goes away and the remaining practitioners who might need or desire it are now in danger.

      The programmer or the savvy user who knows how to get encryption is never going to be reached by this. But we need to remember that most people don't have those skills, but may well need privacy.

      And we need them to have privacy because when everyone has privacy, then you can't put everyone on a list. If you only have a only few knowledgeable people who know how to do that, then anyone who simply *uses* encryption can be flagged for further follow up. And that follow up is usually more dangerous than anything they would have ever read on your internet communications.

      There is something much more dangerous than not having privacy, and that is attracting the active interest of someone whose job is to find people to investigate and prosecute. Cutting out widespread protections from the general public puts you in the elite and undesirable class of people that someone in the government actually looks at for more than a tenth of a second.

    4. Re:Ban it? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      US laws have a way of either finding ways to be enforced overseas or become "examples" for other countries to use. Do not take them lightly. The US Senate may not be the Supreme Senate of Earth, but some legislative bodies have more influence than others. If one government becomes infected with this nonsense, do not assume that your government is immune, even if they are resistant in some way.

    5. Re:Ban it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well in spite of US pressure, New Zealand became Nuclear free and no later governments have been brave enough to try and change that status.

      New Zealand got punished economically for their democratic decision, how dare a country of (back them) 3 million people say NO to the US. At the same time China got "Favoured Nation Status" for trade.

      Unfortunately since then our MPs have had less spine, the should have said NO to the TPPA too.

      The one thing the US is consistent about, its moral stance depends on how much money can be made. The US will forgive any crime by other countries if there is enough money in it for them.

  37. Senators get blacked out sedans? by Bruce66423 · · Score: 2

    Wow - no wonder the USA is messed up. In the UK our ministers get a chauffeured car - and that's it. Disrupting the traffic - especially because it's so bad anyway - is the way to lose elections over here. I remember seeing Obama go past in a 50 car cavalcade. WHY?

    Seems like this has potential as a campaign issue.

    1. Re:Senators get blacked out sedans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ! car for the person, 49 for the ego.

    2. Re:Senators get blacked out sedans? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      That way if someone (say, a terrorist, always sounds good these days) places a roadside bomb, they only have a 2% chance of hitting the correct car, and even less actually killing him (considering the cars are so heavily armed).

  38. I am a master criminal ... by Alain+Williams · · Score: 1

    I am really afraid that Feinstein & Burr's bill will become law. If it does the FBI will be able to read all my plans as I won't be allowed to encrypt them. That would be a shame since I have a nice business going here ... maybe I could move to Canada. Perhaps I could give them some campaign contributions to make this go away. This is really bad news, a lot of my friends would also need to stop doing dirty deeds, think of the unemployment that this would cause!

  39. Wherever we may find it. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    The Supreme Court needs to reiterate the right to speak encrypted in the First Amendment, and that "regulating business activity is not regulating speech" is itself unconstitutional sophistry.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  40. Full text and commentary at The Hill by Sara+Chan · · Score: 1

    The full text of the draft bill, and some commentary, is at The Hill: "Senate encryption bill draft mandates 'technical assistance'".

  41. Stupid senators asking for laws by knee jerk. by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    Dear Senate, all of you are drooling morons. uncrackable encryption has existed for decades, and will continue to exist after your stupid law. All the law does is makes honest people criminals.

    It's to the point that it's not worth it to be an honest citizen because the criminals have more freedom.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  42. Passing laws without OUR approval by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since when does our servant government get to pass laws without OUR approval? (rhetorical but self-illuminating)

    The government should be OUR advocate since it is delegated certain authority by WE, THE PEOPLE.

  43. Re:No Backdoor Required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    >>Not having auto-wipe is not the same as having a backdoor.

    Yes, it is. A security model is the totality of all measures. Removing one piece destroys the whole. So yes, a backdoor.

  44. Screw Your State And Everyone In It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can claim to dislike Feinstein, but the majority of the people in California like her and her bullshit ideas so much that they have elected her five times now.

    And, most recently, "in the 2012 election, she claimed the record for the most popular votes in any U.S. Senate election in history".

  45. This... by fyngyrz · · Score: 2

    Senate Bill Draft Would Prohibit Unbreakable Encryption

    That will work just about as well as laws that make suicide illegal. Or guns.

    Unenforceable; impractical; in the final analysis, stupid.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:This... by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It will work *very* well, just not at the ends that these Senators want.

      Do you know how painful it is to work with European companies thanks to how shitty Facebook and company were with cooperating?

      Now a law that ends all unbreakable encryption will make it impossible for me to convince anyone in Europe that they won't be owned the second they send some data over. Even though our app doesn't require any sort of private information, or take any credit cards.

      Yes, the Europeans in that case will be technically wrong, but who can really blame them for not being at least a little gunshy in that regard? They not going to want to have to closely inspect every single purchase they make of a product where they can't make an assumption that we are making a good faith attempt to protect them because our fucking government won't let us.

      These Senators are idiots and appear to want us to lose all our international business for some stupid terrorist fearmongering bullshit.

    2. Re:This... by fustakrakich · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unenforceable; impractical; in the final analysis, stupid.

      You folks still aren't getting it. The law provides probable cause against anyone using unbreakable encryption (like such a thing exists). If the cops can't decipher your communications, they can bust the door down, take everything and arrest you on mere suspicion.

      The sad thing is that these laws are such an easy sell to the panicky and actually very authoritarian public.

      And there's that name, Feinstein, again. Fascism in a dress.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    3. Re:This... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      If the cops can't decipher your communications, they can bust the door down, take everything and arrest you on mere suspicion.

      They can already do that. For any reason, or no reason. And shoot your pets and family while they're at it. The consequences? Someone may be required to say "oops." But probably not. Unless you're thinking of another country than the US, of course, can't speak for them. Here, though, totally a way of doing business for law enforcement.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    4. Re:This... by ATMAvatar · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    5. Re:This... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People love to democratically vote for security over liberty then quickly start crying when democracy is suddenly in short supply.

    6. Re:This... by delt0r · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is not like this is a new situation. For quite a while when there was "export" restrictions on encryption you couldn't really communicate to the US with decent security. Within the US was fine. Within the EU and the rest of the world was better. Even off shore US companies couldn't use strong encryption because it was still "exporting" it. I know at least several occasions were companies i worked for would not use US companies for this reason.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    7. Re: This... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm tired of your ridiculous alarmist hyperbole.

    8. Re:This... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, making guns illegal works very well in solving the problem of mass shootings, as you can see with the total failure of the US to fix this problem, as opposed to sensible countries like Australia, and most of Europe.

      But your point about suicide is correct. Suicide and encryption are not guns.

    9. Re:This... by shubus · · Score: 1

      Feinstein has been on the wrong side of almost every bill I've seen her on. She's 82 and needs to retire.

    10. Re:This... by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Being right doesn't win elections.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    11. Re:This... by Tom · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, the Europeans in that case will be technically wrong, but who can really blame them for not being at least a little gunshy in that regard?

      We would be technically wrong, but procedurally correct, because if you have laws like that, plus secret courts and gag orders, staying as far away as possible is the only way to keep data safe.

      The secret courts are the worst. You know when we over here had them the last time? It was in Nazi Germany.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    12. Re: This... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My side hurts from the laugh you just gave me.... Like Norway where they had one of the largest mass shootings I've ever seen in 2012. I actually had a Norwegian argue with me about the fact that "no one in Norway has guns, our police don't even carry." That was until I reminded him that the U.S. Doesn't have a monopoly on crazy people that break laws. But it would appear that the last mass slaying in Austrailia... Where eight people were killed was indeed done with a knife. Good thing that person didn't have a gun........

    13. Re: This... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or another European nation with strict gun control laws that was recently in the news.... Belgium.

    14. Re: This... by armanox · · Score: 1

      It's not hyperbole, it's reality. You don't read US news much, do you?

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    15. Re: This... by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Breivik had planned his attack for years, becoming a farmer for access to large amounts of fertilizer, model airplane group for fuel, hunting license for the rifle, joined a pistol club for the hand gun, picked a small island, assassinated the one police officer first... He's got way more in common with IS than your average school shooter, if the bomb had brought the building down as he planned he'd have killed hundreds in the capital instead of eight. The mass shooting was just his follow-up/plan b. No, it won't stop Unabomber class crazy but very little will, unfortunately...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    16. Re: This... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that in the US a concerned citizen with a gun does have a shot at ending violence once the mass killing starts. American understanding of what to do in life or death situations is fundamentally different than Europeans. We haven't had the decades of control that you have. Case in point the Americans on the French train last year. We deal with the situation head on while Europeans cower.

    17. Re:This... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or what has become increasingly popular: charge the person's possessions with a crime and take them to increase yearly revenue. In some years, the police have taken more from people than burglars.

      This sort of thing reminds me of slavery. It's something that everybody with a functioning brain knew was wrong. Morris of NY gave a great speech at the Constitutional Convention, Ben Franklin asked Congress to end it, Jefferson and Washington expected it to just go away on it's own, but ... it didn't. Every lawyer with a functioning brain understood that allowing the slavery laws to continue over the long term was unethical practice of law. Meanwhile, law enforcement kept going on enforcing the laws that -- at least by a few decades after the country was founded -- everybody that wasn't an idiot knew were wrong.

      We have a similar situation with law enforcement and the lawyers today. History isn't quite repeating itself, but human nature hasn't changed, and many people are choosing to do the wrong thing.

      Everybody with a functioning brain understands that the dual rights to ethical practice of law, and ethical government arise under the 9th Amendment (rights retained by the people) and the 10th Amendment (rights reserved to the people). Even the appearance of conflict of interest must be avoided when alternatives exist. This means that NO government within the USA (federal, state, or local) can legally use fines or income from seized possessions to increase yearly revenue: it's a violation of the highest law in the land (as well as common sense).

      But too many people in the US legal profession are terrified of the 9th Amendment. They see it as a threat to their livelihood, much as the early colonial lawyers saw the anti-slavery movement as a threat to their livelihood (either they owned slaves themselves, or expected the slave owners to be their primary future clients). Further, today, in all too many cases the law enforcement folks -- for whatever reason -- are refusing to do the right thing. Perhaps the lessons of Nuremberg need to be better taught in our schools?

      As a result, in most jurisdictions, both the police and the lawyers are effectively collaborating (without perhaps realizing it, and certainly without the need for midnight meetings or other forms of outright conspiracy) to ignore rights. In the process, they're breaking the law. Armed robbery by government officials is still armed robbery: uniforms and badges and court orders do not change things.

      The whole point of having a Bill of Rights -- and having it be the highest law in the land -- is to protect against situations where the President, the Congress, the Supreme Court, and/or the state governments would act in violation of fundamental rights!

      (Yes, we do know from James Madison's writing that the Bill of Rights was intended to apply to state and local government, not just the federal government.)

      There is some hope: some jurisdictions are at least an making an attempt to act ethically. In North Carolina, for example, the state constitution requires all money from civil penalties to go to education. This isn't ideal, from an ethics perspective, for several reasons. For example, it effectively frees up money (to pay the salaries of judges and police officers) that would otherwise have to be spent on education. The policy could even be thought of as a form of money laundering. Further, officers and judges with children in the schools, or family members working in education have a clear conflict of interest. But, despite these problems, the policy is a huge improvement over the practices in many jurisdictions, and at least ensures that the local governments aren't given the opportunity to act unethically with respect to traffic fines and other civil law issues (something that happens frequently in other states).

      Unfortunately, many in the federal government, like certain senators, are also refusing to acknowledge their responsibilities under the

    18. Re: This... by DariusMacSean · · Score: 1

      True!

    19. Re:This... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The secret courts are the worst. You know when we over here had them the last time? It was in Nazi Germany.

      ... as far as you know.

    20. Re:This... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It's a draft proposal, and TFA doesn't link to any text, so it's too soon to detail the effects. I think it would most likely be similar to CALEA, which says all telecommunications systems in the US have to be tappable, meaning that the authorities can record what any individual is sending and receiving provided they have a court order. It would provide that all vendors of encrypted storage would have to be able to decrypt the storage when given a court order.

      This would probably mean that individuals could use whatever encryption they wanted, including unbreakable encryption (which does exist, assuming nobody finds a very good crack for AES-256). They'd have to do their own key management, of course, but that's what anyone who knows security and wants it does already. There would be no probable cause problem, because the authorities would need a court order to get the encrypted stuff in the first place, and for that they'd need probable cause.

      It's still, in my opinion, a bad idea, but let's fight it on its lack of merits rather than making stuff up.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    21. Re:This... by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Yes, they would attack the low hanging fruit first, because the vendors are enabling the individuals, but if enough individuals start rolling their own, the same rules will be imposed on them. And yes, ultimately all indecipherable communications will give probable cause for arrest and seizure. That is already happening You are perfectly welcome to use the bank's government approved "encryption" in their back-doored app.

      And really, you can save your breath on the *court orders*. They are too easy to get to be of any significant impediment to a tap. Sure, you can win on appeal, after many dollars and many hours. Time and money you never get back. The state is no longer the protector, it is the adversary. I don't believe in allowing it any advantage.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    22. Re:This... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      A telecommunication provider has to provide facilities for law enforcement to listen in. That doesn't mean, and hasn't been construed to mean, that I can't put my own layer of encryption in.

      Your link is to a case where a Federal judge says that the defendant can be compelled to decrypt the contents of a computer. It points out that case law is unsettled on this, and that it's a Constitutional question. It says nothing I can see about encrypted data being probable cause for anything, only that the prosecution has reason to demand its decryption and hence has probable cause for suspicion already.

      How easy it is to get a court order isn't the point here, although I agree with you about them being too easy to get. A court order requires probable cause, however thin that may be in practice. It will take probable cause to find out that a data store is encrypted in the first place, which means that the encryption isn't probable cause unless there already is probable cause.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    23. Re:This... by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      It points out that case law is unsettled on this, and that it's a Constitutional question.

      Case law and your own layer of encryption are irrelevant if they can hold you and your equipment while they wait for you to cough up the password. There will be no compensation to the defendant for lost time and money trying to settle it. We should never allow the state this kind of power. It has no right to compel assistance of any kind, especially in one's own prosecution.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    24. Re:This... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In other words, you do not want an effective criminal justice system. For one to exist, the state has to have limited powers of coercion and investigation.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    25. Re:This... by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Effective is one thing. Abusive is quite another. Self defense against the state is perfectly legitimate, if just for the lack of oversight alone. While coercion is natural, it is also subhuman. Fallibility, corruption, etc precludes giving the state such power.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    26. Re:This... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Okay, two men have you cornered with handguns drawn and aimed at you, and are making threats. A police officer walks by and sees what is happening. Lacking coercive power, the officer does not draw a weapon and instead tries to negotiate with the gunmen. Look, I'm on the bleeding-heart, look-at-all-the-good-in-humanity side, and I'll say that this is almost certainly not going to help you out. Now, let's have a little coercion. The police officer draws and uses coercion on the gunmen, in the form of lethal threats, to break up the situation. I consider this a much better outcome. Suppose that one of the gunmen notices that the police officer lacks adequate immediate supervision and kills the officer in self-defense against the state. We are again in a situation I consider suboptimal.

      Given the situation, exactly what would you want the police officer to do?

      Since one gunman killed the police officer and the other killed you, they escaped from the scene. An astute detective notices that the scene of the crime was covered by a security camera operated by Fred's Bail Bonds. On inquiry, Fred refuses to let the police see the tape. Should it be possible to coerce Fred to turn the tape over in the murder investigation?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  46. Free Speech by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    doesn't it constitute free speech?

    Oh, "free speech" is no obstacle. We've already been informed -- by legal action -- that "free speech zones" are perfectly acceptable limitations on speech. As is content. As is FCC regulation. And so on. In this case, "free speech zones" will be within government purview, that's all. You don't such a law would apply to the US government, do you???

    Just as with "no right to shout fire in a crowded building", you aren't allowed to exercise the right of free speech that way, but a crowded school conducting a fire drill? No problem. They can shout fire in a crowded building without any legal worries at all. Because, you know, people are too stupid to behave properly in any situation unless they are led by the nose by an authority figure.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  47. Tape on my webcam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would describe the tape on FBI director Comey's laptop webcam as unbreakable encryption.
    He should be arrested with the key thrown away!

    These a_holes we elected want THEIR privacy because THEIR motives are unassailable.
    What about OUR privacy? That Feinstein nut has secret service with guns protecting her, yet she would do away with our 2nd amendment as well.

    STOP passing laws you are unable to live under yourselves, Government.

  48. Government is fetishizing reading your email. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is nice the President thinks we're fetishizing our phones.
    But why is government so interested in reading every American's data?
    Without a warrant. I would call that fetish beyond creepy.

    The answer is to hack their devices and expose all their unsavory dealings.
    Just like the Panama papers.Politicians voluntarily resigning left and right is the antidote to these power-hungry fools.
    Go through their back doors hackers till they beg for mercy (double-entendre intended)!!!

  49. Battle? You're speaking to the conquered. by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    The battle was lost long, long ago. But that does not reduce the satisfaction one gets from complaining about it.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  50. Think a step further by Elfich47 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Let's take this law to its logical conclusion. No one in power cares about individuals download pgp and encrypting their email. Everyone cares when money gets involved.

    All "trusted" internet commerce where you plug in your credit card number is dependent upon encryption strong enough to prevent credit card and identity theft. If this law were to pass no internet commerce company would be able to use encryption strong enough to prevent people from stealing credit card numbers by skimming traffic. It may take a little bit (hours or days) but someone skimming Amazon or bank traffic will start being to pull out credit card and account numbers and the trust of internet banking will be destroyed for years.

    This is what will prevent strong encryption from going away- the encryption has to be available to all users for it to be useful. People, credit card companies and insurance companies will not tolerate money being stolen whole sale that we have not seen yet. Yes I am aware that people get their card numbers stolen everyday. Removing encryption would guarantee that your card is stolen the first time you use your card on the internet.

    --
    Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
    1. Re:Think a step further by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All "trusted" internet commerce where you plug in your credit card number is dependent upon encryption strong enough to prevent credit card and identity theft. If this law were to pass no internet commerce company would be able to use encryption strong enough to prevent people from stealing credit card numbers by skimming traffic.

      You're not thinking this through. The bank or shop can provide all the unencrypted data to the FBI or whatever already because they are a party to the encryption. Or they can provide the relevant keys for the particular session to allow the FBI to eavesdrop in real time, all without using a weakened/crackable encryption algorithm. This law would effectively apply only to cases where a company provides the possibility of encryption that that company cannot crack to third parties.

  51. So in the long run... by Ramley · · Score: 2

    American companies can not provide unbreakable encryption? Another country will provide those products and people will want them. Our tech firms get hurt. Brilliant!

    ...Until all countries follow our laws and prohibit the same thing(s).

    Then the only people who have an immense, evil amount of power are governments... beyond what we (in the US) allow today.

    Not to get into the politics of it all, but doesn't limiting the size and scope of our government here in the US make the most sense in the long-run? Handing over power to our government might seem great when the right people are in office, but when the people change (and the power is still there), everyone is screwed. History repeating itself over and over.

  52. No individual or company is above the law by Threni · · Score: 1

    So the law must allow encryption then we don't have a problem.

  53. One time-anything will work by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    You don't even need a phone book. A pad - one time or otherwise - requires that both ends have the key. IOW, agreement ahead of time on encoding.

    If you're going to do that, you can just agree to nonsensical, 100% non-mapping encodings such as this:

    message: "The swan is in the jacuzzi"
    meaning: "set the timer for 10 minutes and run like hell"

    message: "seven burgers at midnight"
    meaning: "the VP is the target"

    message: "Transgender cotton candy"
    meaning: "we'll meet at the fenceline"

    ...and of course, the key to breaking such an encoding is, as always, a heavy wrench, liberally applied with great force to either the sender or the recipient. Obligatory

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:One time-anything will work by buck-yar · · Score: 1

      Nonsense will now be illegal because it may mean something

    2. Re:One time-anything will work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're confusing codes with cyphers.

    3. Re:One time-anything will work by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...

  54. End of online banking and ecommerce? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So no more online banking? No paypal? No stripe? (not that they're encryption is unbreakable, just extremely impractical outside a cosmic timescale).

    I suppose that's one way to force another .com bust.

    I could live with it, I grew up with in-person only transactions, we got by just fine. I don't expect the transition back to bank tellers will be easy though.

    I suppose I could go to Amazon.com (or wherever), place my order, they could generate a printable invoice, then I could go to the bank and pay it? Once the payment clears, they will ship my order?

    Is that the idea here?

  55. Doesn't go far enough by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    We just need to ban lawmakers. We have enough laws now anyway.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Doesn't go far enough by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      640k laws ought to be enough for anybody

  56. "No individual or company is above the JEW," by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There, fixed that for ya.

  57. "Ludicrous, Dangerous, Technically Illiterate" by mxyztplk · · Score: 1

    The Senate's Draft Bill is "Ludicrous, Dangerous, Technically Illiterate": http://www.wired.com/2016/04/s... This bill will certainly stop terrorists in their tracks. After all, terrorists know nothing about computers. And no one outside U.S. jurisdiction knows nothing about computer programming. And no such person or company can produce a program that encrypts data that is "communicated" or "stored." And computer programs cannot be transferred across U.S. borders without approval by the U.S. authorities. And know one knows how to install a computer program without outside assistance by the company or person who produced it. And U.S. Senators and their staffs are not idiots. And/or fascists. And/or certainly not both.

  58. Right. This is what I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't the Internet already filled with loads of unbreakable encryption options?

    Even if they make any of the freely available encryption options available today, illegal -- doesn't that mean that we end up with a situation where criminals continue to use encryption?

    Isn't this a case of trying to close the barn doors after the horses are already gone?

  59. No such thing by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unbreakable encryption -- outside of direct coercion of the sender or receiver -- is trivial. Here's an encrypted message from me:

    "The cockatrice is in the jacuzzi"

    Let me know when you can decrypt it without directly coercing me. You're allowed to use any intellectual or computing resources available to anyone on the planet. Or all of them. Until you can, there's no way, literally no way to make unbreakable encryption inaccessible to anyone with a vocabulary larger than a parrot's (on second thought, that might be enough anyway.) Making such a thing illegal to do, or use, is completely impractical.

    You can punish someone for using it, if you can catch them at it.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:No such thing by mrbester · · Score: 1

      The countersign being "My hovercraft is full of eels", presumably.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    2. Re:No such thing by wbr1 · · Score: 1

      Horse farts in the dirigible. Again.

      --
      Silence is a state of mime.
    3. Re:No such thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not encrypted... Yes, I do have a cockatrice problem.

    4. Re:No such thing by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Of course it's encrypted. The fact that in its present form it is human-readable in no way helps you decipher the actual message. But the information is there. The intended recipient, in possession of the key, will decode it easily. You will never do so.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    5. Re:No such thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vermin's going to kill my brother at the Savoy theater tonight? ... I know this grapevine.

    6. Re:No such thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically that's not "encryption". That's a code.

      Which is what smart people have been using for private communication for centuries. "Encryption" is the automated version for lazy people.

    7. Re:No such thing by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The problem here is that you and everyone you have to communicate with has to know what everything means. It's a code, not a cipher, which means that everybody needs the equivalent of a codebook, which is a security issue in that code books can fall into the wrong hands. Further, if you keep using a code, and the snoops are reading the messages and correlating it to things that happen, the snoops can start breaking the code. You might want to read up on codes used in WWII.

      If you're willing to distribute a code book, you can probably also distribute lots of random numbers, and use a one-time pad. That has the advantage that you can say anything, expected or not, and it's known to be unbreakable. Alternatively, use strong modern encryption.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  60. How can anyone that stupid be a senator by phroot · · Score: 1

    Intentional backdoors are a horrible idea. I wonder how these imbecile senators would like to have a hidden unlockable door to their home? You know who you give a copy of your keys to, but you could never be sure who knows where the hidden unlocked entrance is.

    1. Re:How can anyone that stupid be a senator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing is impossible with your Pinko Liberal Lord.

  61. What planet are they smoking? by Suffering+Bastard · · Score: 1

    Everyone here knows what's being proposed is technically infeasible. We would effectively end up with no encryption at all. So what would the corporate response be? What would Apple, Google, Cisco, et al, do if this bill were to pass? They can't possibly comply, not to mention their sales would plummet. Their only option, if they want to survive, is to extend their middle finger, pull out their millions in political funding and tax dollars (whatever relatively paltry taxes they actually pay) and setup shop across the pond. Americans lose, completely, every way you look at it.

    It would therefore seem there is no chance in hell this bill could ever get passed.

    --
    "Molest me not with this pocket calculator stuff."
    - Deep Thought
    1. Re:What planet are they smoking? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      'passed' and 'enforced' are not the same thing.

      cant be enforced. just cant be done. how could you detect it or stop it?

      (in fact this post means something entirely different, lol)

      what fun this could be.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    2. Re:What planet are they smoking? by Agripa · · Score: 1

      I agree that it is infeasible from a practical standpoint and a really bad idea but how it is technically infeasible? The Clipper design was flawed but key escrow via a law enforcement access field would work. They would have to outlaw the use of other than approved encryption of course.

  62. How come the banks aren't all over this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Okay, so they want to ban unbreakable encryption.

    Understandably, the tech industry is up in arms.

    What I want to know is how come the banking industry isn't up in arms over this too -- because you know, all modern banking transactions are totally dependent on secure encrypted communications. What happens when hackers find the legally-enforced back-door in a currency trading system's encryption?

    And what about the retail industry? Because all e-commerce, all credit card transactions, they all rely on secure encryption too.

    I get it; the law isn't aimed at disrupting the every financial transaction on the planet; it's aimed at the terrorists. But the banks should be smart enough to realize that it's the exact same encryption technology being used for their secure transactions as it is for people who want to communicate secretly, and that if there's a legally enforced back-door in it, it's going to make the banking networks into target number one for every black hat hacker on the planet. And it won't even be difficult -- I mean seriously, if the reward is being able to break into the banking networks and steal billions, it's not going to be hard to spare enough of that jackpot to bribe some corrupt FBI officers to help you get the access keys.

  63. Thanks by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 1

    Don't remember seeing that one before, but it is just possible that my sub-conscious remembered. Do I get to claim originality on the NRA part?

  64. For the n-th time by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    Think about it, dear politicians, what this would mean for your economy.

    Let's say I have a company. I have data that is important to me because it contains trade secrets. I'm in research and development, i.e. THE field you want to attract. No/little use of resources, employs lots of people from top eggheads to braindead menial workers and the output is patents that can be multiplied at will with zero cost and sold (not only domestic but also abroad) for insane amounts of money.

    In case you're too stupid to understand that, dear politican: YOU DO WANT THAT BUSINESS in your town, state and country. You do want that. It's the perfect cash cow, the industry that turns literally NOTHING into gold.

    I will steer clear of you if you disallow me to use unbreakable encryption and perfect safety from spying, though. For obvious reasons: There is none, never has been, never will be, a government-only backdoor. Or rather, there will not be an anything-only backdoor. Any backdoor you can use will eventually be available to my competitor.

    Oh, it's safe because only you have the key? Think again. That key is in the hands of some person working for you. And the entities interested in my research are not only corporations but also whole countries with funds that make that guy, or the guys (seriously, whether it's one or a handful, who gives a shit?), blind when I only suggest paying them. And I will pay them. I have no reason to kill them, I turn them into accomplices. And then I have that key. And that means I have that key to all the research happening in your country. Can you imagine just how much I can pay your underpaid public office workers before this becomes unfeasible for me?

    In other words, in simple words so even you politicians get it: Do that and NOBODY in their sane mind will place their R&D data into a place where your insanity rules. R&D is one of the things you can very easily move abroad. It's not like delivering takes lots of money. Relocating the people I need is peanuts compared to the risk of doing business where you invent insane laws like this.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  65. DMCA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What ever happened to it being illegal to break encryption? Weren't some lecturers arrested for speaking on the topic a few years ago? Why are the Feds and their sniveling little Gestapo Israeli buddies not indicted?

    1. Re:DMCA? by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Those laws explicitly do not apply to law enforcement.

  66. I jknew without even reading the article that .... by rnturn · · Score: 1

    ... Diane Feinstein was one of the Senators sponsoring this bill. I hope the pro-privacy groups are taking note of this and will be reminding the voters when she's up for re-election just how much she thinks of her constituents' privacy.

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  67. What about cross border software? by ukoda · · Score: 2

    Will there be a US and export versions of Windows and Mac OS? I guess the situation with Linux is a bit better e.g. Red Had builds a crippled version for the US market and CentOS do the secure version entirely outside the US. Even if Microsoft and Apple are allowed to make export versions, or do it via an end run around the law, to try and keep customers, would people trust them? Yea, I know, my country is one of many that would pass the same law in the interest of "free trade" so it probably doesn't matter.

    Hopefully this proposed law will fail...

  68. Everybody is kind of forgetting something by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There IS NO unbreakable encryption! Given infinite time, everything can eventually be brute-forced. Assuming they manage to somehow pass this into law, the instant one person with a decent lawyer gets charged, it's falling apart in court.

  69. Define "unbreakable" by jxander · · Score: 1

    Because encryption isn't unbreakable.

    It just takes a while.

    --
    This signature is false.
    1. Re:Define "unbreakable" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OTP of truly random numbers is completely unbreakable. Period.

    2. Re:Define "unbreakable" by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Just like the current copyright term is "limited" even though it will never end.

  70. NZ nuclear free by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    Cheap posturing by a country where it makes no difference. Now for West Germany to have chosen to nuclear free during the cold war - THAT would have been impressive, and stupid. But NZ? I can conceive of no scenario where nukes would have help protect NZ. But nukes for Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania? Great move...

  71. They're kidding, right? by bitbucketeer · · Score: 1

    All encryption is breakable. The recipient has to be able to read it, right? You just have to factor the product of two very big prime numbers to break public key encryption.

    1. Re:They're kidding, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First you state "All encryption is breakable."

      Then you state "... to break public key encryption."

      OTP of truly random numbers is completely unbreakable. Can't be broken by any computer (common or quantum) in any finite amount of time. Period. Do some research on random numbers.

  72. Such a law is not constitutional by anegg · · Score: 1

    The US Constitution does not give the federal government the power to restrict or even to control technology used to secure communications or "private papers" (my 17th century label for data), does it? The 4th amendment clearly states that the federal government can't even try to collect information without having a warrant that clearly identifies the information to be collected. Since this clearly defined restriction on what the federal government may do comes only in a statement otherwise confirming a complete right to privacy from the snooping eyes and ears of everyone including the federal government (how else can the right to be secure... be interpreted?), it surely can't be construed as giving the government the sweeping power to control the very means of protecting that right of the people, can it?

    I don't recall the Constitution handing the power to control the manner in which communications or papers (data) are secured so as to preserve the givernment's limited jurisdiction to "sneak a peak" when warranted (pun intended). Ciphers and other means to protect information from unauthorized disclosure were well-known to the framers of the Constitution, so this cannot be claimed to be an omission from ignorance.

  73. Offline banking if this passes by PeterM+from+Berkeley · · Score: 1

    If this bill passes, I'll open a bank that's not online. No Internet connection at all.

    It'd be the only US bank that's safe.

    --PeterM

  74. OpenBSD by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    Fine, I use OpenBSD. There is no way the project members would weaken encryption or build in backdoors. Fuck the US Government.

  75. What I don't get about this by FrozenGeek · · Score: 1

    It says that any person or company providing encryption software must cooperate with law enforcement to retrieve data on demand. What if I get encryption software from a foreign vendor with no US presence? Isn't this simply killing US encryption vendors? What am I missing here?

    --
    linquendum tondere
  76. " do magic" in legalese by illtud · · Score: 1

    As Julian Sanchez insightfully tweeted:
    "Burr-Feinstein may be the most insane thing I've ever seen seriously offered as a piece of legislation. It is "do magic" in legalese."

  77. By extension, truly random numbers also illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What stupid fucks. A big OTP of truly random numbers. Encrypts anything. Completely unbreakable. Period. Anybody that tells you it is breakable by breaking the people using it (they use it just once remember) don't want you to use encryption and won't admit that you can do that with the best encryption available (the kind with good constants, not NSA constants). Throw in a little steganography with a large lossy data set (e.g. video). Only outlaws will use it so their messages will get through. In the mean time, hackers destroy the American banking industry, not to mention the software industry since the world won't use our software any more.

    Then what becomes illegal? Math? College? Communication with other countries? Stupid fucks.

  78. Code-word encryption by hankwang · · Score: 1

    Your "encryption" is only unbreakable if it is an isolated ciphertext message. If your phone calls and whereabouts have been monitored for a while because of some suspicion, and you used any of those words before, your encryption method is broken, just like a one-time pad or ECB message block is compromised if it is used more than once. By compromised/broken I mean that the attacker has reduced the complexity from infinity to some finite (possibly still large) number.

    1. Re:Code-word encryption by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Yes, of course. So. Can you break it? No, you can't.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  79. It wouldn't ban encryption by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    It's a bad bill, for sure. But it is explicit in the text that it would not require or prohibit any technology.

    It does require the manufacturer to assist. It may not be possible for them to help but generally speaking, being impossible to follow the law is seen as a valid defence.

  80. Senators != Math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You already know who is right (hint).

  81. Re:Privacy, penumbras, and emanations by wvmarle · · Score: 1

    I think you use the same argument for this back door as there is to wire taps. Phone companies are required to allow law enforcement to listen in on phone calls. General right to privacy, but with a court order (well, that's how it's supposed to work at least, and how it used to be) law enforcement can gain access.

    Now they want this wire tap facility attached to encryption. Following that argument, I don't see how that could be a violation to your constitution.

    The technical implementation of such wire tap/back door facility, however, is a whole different discussion.

  82. The dour truth of the matter is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. I can trust evil people to do me harm.
    2. I cannot trust my government to not do me harm.
    3. I cannot trust the federal government to protect me.
    4. I cannot trust the state government to protect me by reason of the incorporation doctrine having stopped short of compelling the state government to recognize my personal right to effective self-defense. I life in a "justifiable need" state wherein the only document that would compel the police chief to issue would be death certificate.
    5. Political correctness, foreign debt and the Snivel Rights Movement have converted the US Constitution into a suicide pact. It has also converted state and local law enforcement into revenue agents targeting people like myself because I am a subclinically disabled, straight, white, Christian male.

    This message has been brought to you by Karl Martell. EDUCATE YOURSELF.

  83. So offer plugins by sacrilicious · · Score: 1

    So what's to stop a given company from offering a modularly architected product that allows the user to slot in encryption plugins from third parties? And if those third parties are somewhere overseas, well...

    --
    - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
  84. Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Both R and D are working together again to shaft us. But they are so different! We really do have a choice guys!

  85. Death of remains of the American comp. industry. by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

    who says it would require "American companies to build a backdoor...

    Next step, Americans stop buying American computers. Already, no-one in the rest of the world considers American computers to be safe for anything other than games.

    To survive, the remains of the American computer industry will need to get international, and get their security management out of the country, out of American citizenship, and out of control by American bodies. I don't see them doing that. So this is another in the death-of-a-thousand-cuts inflicted by the American government on the American computing industry.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  86. Drone bohemian grove 2016 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck drones.. We hacked Israeli satallites for the up coming cremation of care ritual to stream live on cnn / YouTube 2016

  87. What about that irrational pi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While the senate is trying to legislate impossible things (breaking encryption is exponentially hard, but not impossible) why not get rid of that pesky irrational number, pi, and make it easy, like 22/7 or just 3 so it's easier for senators to do arithmetic.

  88. Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good thing there's no such thing as unbreakable encryption.

  89. Good luck with that by Stubbyfingers · · Score: 1

    Preventing unbreakable encryption on the Internet is about like passing laws against cockroaches.

  90. The next step? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't throw away, shred, or burn any papers. You need to box up every letter you receive and every bill you get, plus any writings or diary entries. The government will come along monthly to scan all your documents and destroy them safely.

  91. Re:Death of remains of the American comp. industry by thejynxed · · Score: 1

    So, what you're really saying, is that nobody in the world considers Chinese, Taiwanese, and Japanese computers to be safe, as that is where they are all predominantly manufactured for the entire world.

    --
    @Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
  92. Re:Death of remains of the American comp. industry by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    What little computer industry America still has (people like Cisco network infrastructure, perhaps some Dells, high-end HP servers, that sort of thing) will suffer as people consider the security hazards of buying equipment from people controlled by American TLAs. Doubtless there will also remain concerns about Chinese, Taiwanese, Japanese etc sourcing, but at least their courts and governments haven't come out in public and publicly demanded that backdoors be installed.

    Plus, with vendors with multiple, non-overlapping commitments, you have a better chance of detecting nefarious activity. Viz : if you suspect your Chinese router of talking to Beijing, then you put the test example downstream of a Taiwanese router and use that to look for back-channel traffic. You don't expect the Chinese and Taiwanese TLAs to be cooperating with each other, do you?

    I never really trusted American equipment - going back to the 1980s when I first started to buy computing equipment. But since IBM sold their manufacturing business to Lenovo, I've been happy to buy them. I ordered a new laptop last night (an X-200 - flashed with Libreboot, of course).

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  93. unbreakable encryption outlawed - well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what about encryption requirements for the legal system ( criminal history data must be kept secure ) ?
    The lawful members of courts and law enforcement can have access, but if the encryption is dumbed-down, then the quackers can get to it too...
    And criminal organizations... And foreign govs...

  94. to do truly secure encryption ( not OTP ) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    learn some math. I suggest you add some dead people to your list of references:
    Whittaker and Watson, Titchmarsh, Rainville, Wilf, and Gantmacher for starters, then on to more specialty math,
    like fractals, chaos theory, turbulent flow simulators, and maybe even some MHD ....

    Then develop a program to do encryption/decryption, and write it in assembly, and make it dynamic ( it writes
    code and data over parts of its original code and data during execution....
    Then burn the notes do a secure delete and write over the source files a few times, and forget how it was done.
    Just figuring out the code will be a major hassle, and without a key, breaking it would be a long-career endeavor.

  95. Time to vote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I vote we exile Feinstein.