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Android Is 'Fair Use' As Google Beats Oracle In $9 Billion Lawsuit (arstechnica.com)
infernalC writes: Ars Technica is reporting that the verdict is in, and that the jury decided that Google's duplication of several Java interfaces is fair use. Ars Technica writes that Google's Android OS does not infringe upon Oracle-owned copyrights because its re-implementation of 37 Java APIs is protected by "fair use." The jury unanimously answered "yes" in response to whether or not Google's use of Java APIs was a "fair use" under copyright law. The trial is now over, since Google won. "Google's win somewhat softens the blow to software developers who previously thought programming language APIs were free to use," Ars Technica writes. "It's still the case that APIs can be protected by copyright under the law of at least one appeals court. However, the first high-profile attempt to control APIs with copyright law has now been stymied by a "fair use" defense." The amount Oracle may have asked for in damages could have been as much as $9 billion.
Sometimes, juries do the right/sane thing.
Now PLEASE, supreme court, et al, don't let this warm feeling go away by overturning this.
The Universe has equilibrium again ! Geeks of the world...rejoice !
I'm glad Google won, because if they had lost you can bet your ass SCO would rise from the dead with a vengeance suing everyone from Google to Cisco/Linksys and anyone else who dared use embedded Linux.
The Universe has found equilibrium again! Geeks of the world...rejoice !
I think Oracle needs to change to a new company motto, like "Don't Be Evil!".
Not that long ago, there was a story saying that the judge and jury in this case were clueless. The summary ripped them pretty hard. Here's the story. It would appear that the judge and jury are owed an apology. It sure looks like they got it right in ruling that an API is fair use.
They want us all unemployed and living with n the dole so they'll have even more control of our lives.
The trial is now over,
Oracle has threatened to appeal (because of the way the instructions to the jury were phrased), and in fact has filed a motion for JOML, which would overturn the jury's decision (basically they asked the judge to evaluate the evidence and determine whether a non-descript 'reasonable' jury would find it fair use).
So expect this to last for the rest of the year at least.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Check H3H3 Productions vs Bald Guy / Matt Hoss / Parkour guy if you're interested in fair use..
Thank goodness the court and the jury did the right thing.
The single appeals court ruling that API is copyrightable is annoying and does not completely go away, but at least there is still sanity.
Copyrights aren't patents and this could have been a very, very bad day for computer programming. From your SCO example ---- imagine the problems an operating system like Linux would have had --- to almost everything menu interfaces, shortcut keys, 2 + 2 is an equation interface.
Nice to get some good news for a change.
Google won the battle but lost the war.
This is not over in terms of the industry as a whole. A jury decision does not create precedent. Instead, the decision is merely that this specific use, by these specific parties, *with this specific jury*, constitutes fair use. A different jury in a different case may and will find differently. Google was the biggest target, but it's not the only target.
Larry Ellison won't be getting a new super-mega yacht.
Oracle V. Google Being Decided By Clueless Judge and Jury
From last week:
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/05/14/2350237/oracle-v-google-being-decided-by-clueless-judge-and-jury
You suck. I'm glad your attempt to poop in the pool failed.
It is possible to have a thriving business without attempting to screw over everyone else. I hope you try it some time.
"piss of Republicans?" We should drug test that piss.
In court it's not over until all the appeals are exhausted. Oracle will appeal this.
I bet Google made a secret deal with the judge to expunge his entire search history.
Trolling is a art,
Oracle's Lawyer stated: "They copied 11,500 lines of code," Oracle attorney Peter Bicks said during closing arguments. "It's undisputed. They took the code, they copied it, and put it right into Android." My understanding is that google used the api's but wrote their own implementation, what does he base that accusation on?
I'm sure there will be appeals and Oracle will keep pushing the issue, but for now, it's a good thing. Frankly, it'll keep people using Java for longer, which helps Oracle a bit. Of course, Oracle and IBM are just fine locking people into insanely expensive middleware platforms too.
Personally. I'd more than like to see Java fade into maturity. It's clunky, verbose and many of the frameworks they use are showing their age. Of course, I'm biased having done recent work in C#. I've just gotten very used to it's asynchronous programming features and frameworks that embrace that and higher order programming. And .Net core is removing a major annoyance by finally going more OS neutral.
I do hope this will prompt Google to make Go a first class option for Android. Swift worked out well for Apple. I know Java has it's fan, but the ones I talk still act like Sun is in charge of the platform. They aren't and it really shows. Oracle has been a terrible steward of Java and the Java platform. Even IBM was better, but not by much. I'm surprised that more Java programmers aren't frustrated by how things have been managed, but imagine most of them aren't aware of how competing languages are changing.
Do you know why you're downvoted? If you don't, I'll tell you.
You're a hater. You're a troll. You're an "imaginary property cop".
You wrote:
> I don't think they're covered under fair use.
Thank you for your expert opinion. You are, of course, an expert in Copyright law? No?
A lawyer versed in Copyright law? No?
A judge who has presided over Copyright law cases? No?
Oh. You're an Internet commentator. Well then:
https://xkcd.com/386/
Ehud
The Judge generally weighs the jury's ruling pretty strongly. I honestly thought the jury would rule against google. Juries tend to be very conservative and they tend to side first with property rights. Oracle had some fairly compelling arguments too. Ars has the slides they showed the jury and their slick as all hell get out. The fact that it was ruled you could copyright declarations kinda sucked too. Oracle now has an uphill fight on their hands.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I copied 1 line of subjects. It's undisputed. I took your subject, I copied it, and put it right into my post.
After this, if I still had my company, I wouldn't touch Java with a ten foot pole. I'd be at the whim of whatever Oracle executive failed to meet last quarter figures. Find a true unencumbered language and use that instead.
That's awesome.
Now they just have to deal with Oracle spending out the ass on followup lawsuits on this to increase everyone's financial burden on this.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Fair use permits limited use of copyrighted material without licensing for creative and educational purposes. This will be appealed.
The real damage has been done: a court ruling that APIs can be copyrighted.
The only hope at this point is that Oracle gets sued for every single API is has ever used without explicit legal permission and they get in enough pain to regret their own asked for (i.e. bought) ruling and then teams up with other (non-insane) megacorps to fix the problem.
They want us all unemployed and living with n the dole so they'll have even more control of our lives.
Actually, it's the democrats that want single employer (govt) and single payer (govt), so they (govt) have even more control over our lives...
Most republicans couldn't care less about people's lives (unless they are getting an abortion)...
Halla fuckin' lullah! We can again dance in the streets. It's almost too much to believe that a Jury actually came back with the 'proper verdict'...apparently people in general are smarter than we give them credit for on slashdot....
It's great Google won and all, but fair use doesn't really protect the average developer. Fair use is an affirmative defense. In order to assert fair use, you have to get sued, refuse to settle, and then prove that your use is a fair use in a court of law. That will almost always get prohibitively expensive very quickly as this case has shown.
The real solutions is to make APIs not covered by copyright at all, like a directory listing or mathematical formula. I think Oracle should be able to copyright the implementation of Java, and obviously they have the right to restrict the use of the Java trademark, but the APIs should just be public domain.
HAHAHAH!! Beautiful! I'd nothing against Oracle until this, but what they did was despicable. So Ellison, for all the uncertainty and fear you caused the software industry, go fuck yourself using as a dildo nothing less than a redwood (with branches intact), you miserable robber baron bastard! FUCK YOU!
And most democrats only care about minorities when a white person is behind the gun (BLM, the darker shade of KKK) and only care about perpetuating slavery - aka you vote for me and I'll keep giving you money... or food-stamps/welfare checks... Don't throw stones in glass houses - the Democrats have just as many skeletons in their bigoted closets... but those skeletons only remain there because calling them out gets one labeled racist or bigoted.
Larry Ellison you fucking cunt, suck it long and suck it hard, you fucking bitch.
Google wins! All developers rejoice!!!
This. They hate Washington and California for our large software industry.
According to Bloomberg,
Oracle Co-Chief Executive Officer Safra Catz invoked the Ten Commandments to characterize Google as acting above the law. Catz told jurors that, at a bat mitzvah in 2012, Google General Counsel Kent Walker told her, “You know, Safra, Google is this really special company, and the old rules don’t apply to us.”
“I immediately said, ‘Thou shalt not steal,’” Catz testified. “It’s an oldie but goodie.”
Wow. If that's true, then Kent Walker should learn to not say things like that - even in a non-business setting.
There are four factors to consider when determining if the copying is "fair use":
... a work of the United States Government not subject to copyright protection.
1. Purpose and character of the use, including whether the use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes.
Google's use of the Java interfaces is to educate other pieces of code about what the implementation does. Interfaces are essentially documentative in nature, not creative...
2. Nature of the copyrighted work
Interfaces are not very creative. All they really do is document the input and output of an implementation. The implementation is where the creativity of the work is expressed.
3. Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
I bet the interfaces are less than 3% of the code base. If not, we have an over-architected language on our hands here..
4. Effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work
Oracle didn't lose a dime over this until they started paying lawyers to sue Google. If anything, Google's use of the Java interfaces made Java more valuable, because it brought more developers into the Java fold.
This comment shamelessly copies content from http://www.copyright.gov/fair-...
Microsoft's move to open source,and set free some very powerful programming tools, carries well into this story. Developers choose Java because it was believed to be free/open But as far as Oracle is concerned, it's not. I really do think .net core can fill this role now.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I'd love to see IBM take a swing at this one, seeing as the original decision that allowed non-IBM PC-compatible machines to be created turned on the question of whether creating a BIOS that exposed the exact same interface as IBM's BIOS infringed on IBM's copyright if all other code could be proven to be entirely original. Under this decision the answer would be "Yes.", and IBM would be owed damages for every single PC created using a non-IBM BIOS that had any trace of the legacy BIOS API in it (at a minimum every BIOS that wasn't completely UEFI-only).
It might also be entertaining to analyze the effects of this ruling on Oracle's use of GPL- and LGPL-licensed glibc and kernel header files in their products that run on Linux. Neither license quite directly addresses the question of copying copyrighted API declarations into object files and executables. They address linking of various sorts, and copying into source code, but this particular aspect's deemed outside the scope of the license and thus not addressed.
I love these stories. It's like opening a box of Cracker Jack and finding a free random number in the bottom. It's never prime, however. It's always of the form p * q * r * s.
and yay
Under which of the categories of fair use specified in the statute do you believe this use falls? Which of the statutory four criteria for how it is used apply, in opinion?
Let me guess, you had no idea that the statute lays out categories of use which are fair, and the conditions under which use within those categories may be fair. You couldn't guess what two of the categories are, much less articulate any cogent thoughts about how any of them applies to this case.
Rather, you're under the delusion that the law is whatever you wish it to be at the moment. This is not surprising, for two reasons. First, given that people with social deficiencies such as you have displayed tend also be be ignorant, to lack knowledge of the world around them. Second, the same ultra-selfcenteredness which allows you to think as though your desire for the law to be a certain way actually does make it so; this also makes it extremely difficult for such a person to converse in a civilized and respectful manner.
* The best arguments for fair use are under 107(3) and (4) - Java is more than just the APIs; and by being Java compatible, Android may increase, rather than decrease, the market for Java.
...in-house, hiring a mock jury of people from the street to sit and listen, with a good defense lawyer to mock-represent the Google side.
Then repeating over and over until juries are more often than not swayed in Oracle's favor, then with such sharpened arguments going for the real thing.
Kind of like how NASA went to the moon, except without any nobility in the endeavor.
I know larry he's a punk.
his company, while still churning out what some think is a great product, also follow his lead..
he got stuffed and deservedly so..
Oracle, got stuffed and deservedly so..
im not perfect, i have my flaws, we all have our flaws.
But all in all we are not larry.
I could say more, but whats to stop larry from being larry.
I dont have his access to his resources, that being said,
Exit stage Right
I'd only use Java for Android and would stick with native Objective C for iOS, and keep as much of the logic in JSON RESTful webservices as I could get away with.
You won't be able to "get away with" much if an app needs to run offline, such as if it's for tablets that drift out of Wi-Fi often, phones whose data plan has been used up for the month, and devices carried on airplanes. You'll have to replicate most of the logic in an app that accesses a cached view of the data retrieved from your "JSON RESTful webservices".
..are you criticising the previous poster. He has two Oracle v Google judgements backing up his opinion that it's fair use. Getting into the details is irrelevant.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
and only care about perpetuating slavery
Also don't forget that it was the democrats who argued for slavery back in the day. Abraham Lincoln was a republican.
Larry Ellison is a selfish hypocritical right wing fuck who was willing to wreck the entire software industry for his own personal gain.
Dude, chill. I think you're going overboard with this.
Oracle has to defend its business and it would be stupid for them not to go after the ginormous megacorp Google if they didn't see a chance of making a PR splash with the public and the shareholders. Everyone knows this was not about some silly and absurd 9 billion in damages Oracle was asking of Google.
Now Ellison can point to the lost Google case when business goes south for Oracle and Google wins out - even though this all had nothing to to with the case. The lawsuit is little more than a machiavellian smoke & mirror stunt to give Oracle some extra arguments vis-a-vis their inverstors. The case does have a lot of SCO smell to it and it was Sun who FOSSed Java, for the better or the worse - I doubt the Oracle experts or their legal dept. saw much of a chance of winning.
That's my impression anyway.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
What I wonder is, where does OpenJDK fall in all of this? I mean, seriously, the issue of API reimplementation is one thing, but OpenJDK pretty much does the same thing as Oracle's in most cases (but is free). From my understanding, Oracle isn't involved in OpenJDK itself.
Basically, OpenJDK is a lot more like Oracle's Java (but it isn't tied to a massive revenue stream like Android/Dalvik), so where's the lawsuit for that?
Was he the only republican? Was he typical in his (eventual) anti-slavery opinion? You really have to try to put that spin on it? Pathetic.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Did someone just use begging the question correctly?
This is not the way that I would have liked this case to be won. But at least it allows Android to continue to exist in its current form.
What I really want is a legal principle: "APIs are not legally protectable." But then I also want the same principle for user interface. By "not legally protectable", I mean that any attempt to patent, copyright, or trademark things that fall into the categories of API or UI would be automatically rejected, and any that have already been granted would be considered invalid.
I'm willing to grant one exception. Each application should be allowed to have ONE (and exactly one) icon that it could trademark and copyright as a visual representation of that application. That would, for example, mean that no other application could use the Facebook icon to represent itself, or to represent any function in the application other than some form of interaction with Facebook.
It's true, the Democrats were the haven for racists, and were the slave owners before the civil war. They still consider the former slaves to be their property, and want them under their control. And they still have a horror of armed citizens, of any race. I know, I grew up in South Carolina in the 1960's.
I think we are safe the Supreme Court decided to punt last time this law suit came to them. So now that Google "won" where will Oracle be appealing this to next?
A 21st century hack perhaps on the "justice sys... contemporary preference"? ILLUMINATE!!?!?! O.o ... or just another case of biting the hand that feeds? Like the tootsie roll... the world may never know... ... ... BUT ILLUMINATE!!!!!!