Panasonic To Stop Making LCD Panels For TVs (nhk.or.jp)

AmiMoJo quotes a report from NHK WORLD: Japanese electronics maker Panasonic says it will stop making LCD panels for televisions, giving way to fierce price competition. The pullout from TV LCD manufacturing follows the company's withdrawal from plasma TV production 3 years ago. They say they will continue to manufacture LCD panels at the plant for products other than televisions, such as medical equipment and cars. They say the company will keep making Panasonic-brand televisions, using panels supplied by other manufacturers. After Panasonic pulls out, Sharp and its Taiwanese parent firm Hon Hai will be the only producer in Japan.

Comments

Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Anonymous Coward]

"Pearl Harbour didn't work out, so we got you with tape decks."

In only 25 years, Japan's world leadership in electronics has cratered. Good work, LDP.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[cloud.pt]

I hate replying to 0-modded comments, but this one deserves a honourable mention: they really haven't really fallen, they just peaked. Actually Japan is the very first country in this world to experience the future. And by future, I mean the socioeconomic and cultural consequences of "civilizational endgame", for lack of a better expression. Japan was the first country to achieve what many will follow. The real problem here is that unlike other crysis, overflow population combined with ageing and the very fact that the human society values the preservation of individual life is the perfect storm for any given nation to just stop outputing anything. It is a scenario where both capitalism and comunism will try, like many a time before, to seize democratic power, but this time they won't be able to do any "final measure" against it because there is absolutely no pollitically correct way to influence the populace into extreme measures. I know I know, just planted a philosophical bomb in an LCD thread, but it's late at night and I felt inspired for nonsense. It does make sense though.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Dcnjoe60]

Of course it is easier to advance and experience the future when you don't have a military to support and the US gives large sums of money to Japan to keep bases there. Yes, I know that the reason they don't have a military is because of the terms of surrender post WWII with the US. But that doesn't change the reality that not spending billions per year on defense allows it to be reinvested elsewhere.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[c]

Of course it is easier to advance and experience the future when you don't have a military to support

You might want to catch up on current (i.e. within the last 60 years) events...

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Applehu Akbar]

"... this one deserves a honourable mention..."

In Japanese culture, that's what a comment is called.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Dcnjoe60]

If you read to the end of that wiki article you would find that Japan spends 1% of GDP on defense with most of it going to personnel costs. That is one of the lowest in the world. By comparison, the over the past 20 years has spent between 4.6% to currently 3.5%. For the US, that amounts to $829B which is greater than the federal deficit. If the US spent 1% of GDP on defense, then there would be no deficit and an additional $600B for US citizens to spend on goods and services. Think how that would spur the economy and create jobs.

So yes, technically, Japan does have a military. They just don't spend much on it as it's sole purpose is to defend against invasion and for internal security. In short, their military is the equivalent to the US's National Guard.

Note: data for the above obtained from linked wiki page, usgovernmentspending.com and data.worldbank.org

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[suupaabaka]

This topic is really interesting to me. I had a professor a few years ago when I was doing postgrad that thought exactly that; that the Japanese had reached the capitalist endgame. He went on to explain (at great length) that the Japanese were still clinging to the original model of capitalism, and the only way forward was high tech communism.

What he meant wasn’t the communism of the Soviet era, but a communism in which menial work is left to robotics and AI with humans having the freedom to engage in creative pursuits, invention and leisure. He believes (and his arguments were quite convincing) that the Japanese have a HUGE supply productive potential with very little demand, and that their current socio-economic model is the product of not seeing the forest for the trees.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[tsotha]

So yes, technically, Japan does have a military. They just don't spend much on it as it's sole purpose is to defend against invasion and for internal security. In short, their military is the equivalent to the US's National Guard.

Japan has a big advantage in that it's an island nation, so it doesn't need to spend much on ground forces. Even with China's growing strength, Japan still has the most powerful navy in the Far East and enough air power to defend the home islands. Japan lacks logistics capability, so it can't project power like the US or Russia. But that's okay; the Japanese people don't seem to have much interest in rebuilding the empire.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Anonymous Coward]

What he meant wasn’t the communism of the Soviet era, but a communism in which menial work is left to robotics and AI with humans having the freedom to engage in creative pursuits, invention and leisure.

Yep, the industrialization/machines replacing human labor is what got Marx thinking.
If wealth is created without humans working then capitalism is not a fair way to distribute that wealth.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[c]

If you read to the end of that wiki article you would find that Japan spends 1% of GDP on defense with most of it going to personnel costs. That is one of the lowest in the world.

... which still puts it in the top ten by total expenditures; I wouldn't say it's anything to scoff at. I'd argue that it's an absurdly high number for a country which doesn't do (much) peacekeeping or projecting power outside of it's borders.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[AmiMoJo]

The specific issue with LCDs has happened before in Japan with other tech. Japan pioneers and dominates it for a while, but then it becomes almost a commodity product and everyone else is making the same stuff but cheaper so Japanese companies stop and move on to the next thing.

In this case Panasonic seems to think that the LCD panels available from other manufacturers are good enough, and that when combined with Panasonic backlighting and image processing and TV UIs will create a compelling product.

As for the falling popular, they have been trying to make children a more attractive prospect. Free nurseries and support for new parents, better employment rights for paternity/maternity leave etc. It's a hard problem to solve, but at least there is less opposition from people who feel they shouldn't have to contribute to other people's kids. It's seen as a national problem (which it is), not just an individual lifestyle choice.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada and Mexico aren't going to be attacking the US anytime soon. Heck, based on pop fiction, it's likely going to be the other way around.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Ol Olsoc]

Japan has a big advantage in that it's an island nation, so it doesn't need to spend much on ground forces.

And the US needs to keep our wimminfolk safe from those gaddammed Canadians! A bunch of poutine eatin' yetis, I'll tell you what!

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Ol Olsoc]

As for the falling popular, they have been trying to make children a more attractive prospect. Free nurseries and support for new parents, better employment rights for paternity/maternity leave etc. It's a hard problem to solve, but at least there is less opposition from people who feel they shouldn't have to contribute to other people's kids. It's seen as a national problem (which it is), not just an individual lifestyle choice.

I suspect that one of the most difficult problems to solve is the issue of people not wanting to be around children. Here in the west, if you are male, and especially a white middle aged male you are pretty much considered a latent pedophile. This in turn has the effect of making a lot of people simply avoid children altogether, much less want to have any of their own. Dunno what the situation is in Japan, but free stuff won't overcome the societies assuming that the father of a child is a sexual predator.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[dave420]

Don't make such sweeping generalisations. Where you live that might be the case, but in much of the rest of the developed world this alleged persecution of white middle aged guys isn't happening. Oh won't someone please think of the poor middle aged white guys!?.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Ol Olsoc]

Oh won't someone please think of the poor middle aged white guys!?.

Sorta made a sweeping generalization there yourself, spunky.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[tlhIngan]

So yes, technically, Japan does have a military. They just don't spend much on it as it's sole purpose is to defend against invasion and for internal security. In short, their military is the equivalent to the US's National Guard.

Japan has a big advantage in that it's an island nation, so it doesn't need to spend much on ground forces. Even with China's growing strength, Japan still has the most powerful navy in the Far East and enough air power to defend the home islands. Japan lacks logistics capability, so it can't project power like the US or Russia. But that's okay; the Japanese people don't seem to have much interest in rebuilding the empire.

Japan for the longest time (I think it was only lifted in the 90s or so) since WWII was restricted in what their military could do. It was part of their surrender agreement - they could no longer wage wars and much of their military was decimated into purely a defensive role, by legal rule.

So it's less that they spend so little and it's easy to defend (Japan as a LOT of islands), it's that their military only exists in a defensive role and cannot be used to wage an offensive against anyone.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't really agree. Japan's problems are just the endgame for a particular set of cultural values.

That is xenephobia and isolationism linked with a strong cultural identity.

You effectively cannot emigrate to Japan. Even when you technically do, you're a permanent outsider and there is a very low ceiling to your socioeconomic upward mobility.

Without immigration, first world countries have a negative birth rate. With a negative birthrate your country can't grow. Without growth you stagnate. That is a hard and unchanging economic truth and this is Japan today

Yes immigration means change. And no, you can't do without it unless you convince your population to fuck like rabbits.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[cloud.pt]

Some good points there, especially on the isolationism and identity.

Fun fact: if you happen to be a fan of highly political and forward-thinking plot of the Ghost In the Shell shows (especially Stand Alone Complex), you get a solid vibe of what Japan is going to evolve into in what respects to the compulsive allowance their condition requires of immigration... And the cultural clash it causes in such a strong-willed nation.

I agree with suupaabaka's teacher opinion about a form of open communism, where no ideological suppression exists and the tendency is actually to foster it through free time instead of long work hours for human beings. Communism in essence has always been a great idea (but never EVER succeeded in practice) and allied with such goals make it one of the most mesmerizing utopias we could hope for. But I believe the human Wille zur Macht will forever lurk behind the scenes and widespread well-being is something we, as a "pack", are not genetically/biologically prepared for.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[cloud.pt]

I agree with your teacher's opinion about a form of open communism, where no ideological suppression exists and the tendency is actually to foster it through free time instead of long work hours for human beings. Communism in essence has always been a great idea (but never EVER succeeded in practice) and allied with such goals make it one of the most mesmerizing utopias we could hope for. But I believe the human Wille zur Macht will forever lurk behind the scenes and widespread well-being is something we, as a "pack", are not genetically/biologically prepared for.

Re: Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Anonymous Coward]

You dont see white guys in general being persecuted for things they have never and will never do?

How about the made up rape culture and how every male is a supposed racist, sexist bigot?

3rd wave feminism has been oppressing men for a long time. Men are guilty of domestic violence for defending themselves, they are shamed for telling people they aren't sexist etc.

There is a ton of bullshit being pushed by the extreme left about men, specifically white men. You have to be absurdly ignorant not to see it

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[TheSync]

He went on to explain (at great length) that the Japanese were still clinging to the original model of capitalism, and the only way forward was high tech communism.

Japan chooses to coddle and protect many industries that would be more productive if exposed to global competition. (Thus TPP is seen as a back-door way to achieve reform).

The Economic Freedom Index lists Japan as only "Mostly Free", notes:

"A web of close relationships among companies, politicians, government agencies, and other groups fosters an inwardly cooperative business climate conducive to corruption, most often seen in the rigging of bids on government public works projects."

"A propensity for lifetime-employment guarantees and seniority-based wages hurts productivity and impedes development of a more flexible labor market. A government effort to scale back institutionalized farm subsidies has encountered stiff political resistance."

"Imports of many agricultural products are restricted. The government screens investments in several sectors of the economy, including agriculture and telecommunications. The banking sector is competitive but lacks dynamic growth. Japan Post (the holding company for the post office, postal bank, and postal-insurance company) has distorted the financial sector."

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[tsotha]

Yes, the US is effectively in the same position, and historically it's been a huge advantage.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[tsotha]

Japan's military is constrained in that it can't have nuclear weapons and can't build "offensive" weapons, which has always been read to mean "no aircraft carriers". But it does have helicopter carrying destroyers, which in the US would be assault carriers. There were constitutional provisions against deploying Japanese forces abroad, but those were, quite recently, effectively removed by the Abe government.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[diamondmagic]

The sentiments that job automation is a good thing is correct for the reasons listed (near-free cost-of-living), but communism and socialism are economically impossible. It's not a matter of getting the implementation right, but outright mathematics: Without a price mechanism, you can't tell if your resource allocation decisions are productive or not.

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[cloud.pt]

I'm really no expert in politics, but I doubt the only way to calculate resource allocation is implying that weight/cost/speed/travel for any form of resource management, be it graphs, trees, schedules, budgets or whatever has to be called a price and directly associated with a monetary value just so that it can be excluded from the "practice" of communism. I think communism has great resource management when it wants to and when the main cost of that management is the impact on the community as a whole instead of the sole gratification of the individual. That is actually my definition of communism. And how can anybody say communists lack resource management when, for example, a communist state such as the USSR actually used a supremely lower space budget and then WON the space race against the US (of course the US changed the goal to "land on Moon" after that... ^_^). I mean... XD

Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[Anonymous Coward]

and History

sad

[ganjadude]

panasonic plasma displays were by far much better then LCD was pretty angry when they stopped that. now LCD???

Re:sad

[Dcnjoe60]

plasma production stopped because LCD screens were so much cheaper that it was no longer competitive. Likewise, they are stopping LCD screens for the same reason. They can't compete with the cheap screens being massed produced by others. They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price, but how long is anybody's guess.

More importantly, since there is now only one major producers of LCD screens, how long before prices start going up?

Re:sad

[fustakrakich]

They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price...

They are staying in the niche markets where the margins are much higher.

Re:sad

[Dcnjoe60]

They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price...

They are staying in the niche markets where the margins are much higher.

Isn't that what I said?

Re:sad

[fustakrakich]

No, niche markets have nothing to do with quality. It's all about the price.

Re:sad

[Dcnjoe60]

No, niche markets have nothing to do with quality. It's all about the price.

Except their niche is medical and military grade, so there probably are specs they need to live up to.

Re:sad

[AmiMoJo]

It wasn't the unit cost, consumers were willing to pay the extra for plasma. It was the development cost. Panasonic went to 4k for all it's mid and high end models that year, and developing 4k plasma screens was deemed too expensive. They felt that people wouldn't buy 1080p plasmas for similar prices to 4k LCDs, and 4k was the next big thing and reason to upgrade.

It's a real shame, I have yet to see a screen with colour as good as my Panasonic plasma, or motion. Plasma doesn't suffer from the ghosting that LCD does, it's more like a CRT in that respect.

Also, there is more than one major producer of LCDs. Japan has Sharp, now owned by a Chinese company, and Korea has LG. Still, it is interesting that 80% of TV, monitor, phone and tablet screens come from those two. The other 20% are Samsung AMOLED and a few other relatively small Chinese companies.

Re:sad

[Ol Olsoc]

plasma production stopped because LCD screens were so much cheaper that it was no longer competitive. Likewise, they are stopping LCD screens for the same reason. They can't compete with the cheap screens being massed produced by others. They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price, but how long is anybody's guess.

More importantly, since there is now only one major producers of LCD screens, how long before prices start going up?

As well, plasma screens tend to throw off broadband noise - imagine each little element as a tiny spark radio transmitter.

Re:sad

[Ol Olsoc]

They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price...

They are staying in the niche markets where the margins are much higher.

Isn't that what I said?

No no, you are both wrong. They are staying in markets where they make more profit........

Re:sad

[DarkOx]

I the happy owner of a Panasonic plasma. Its been a great TV, great picture, great black levels, no issues in all the years I have owned it.

I would not buy one today though. The fact is improvements in back lighting technology and LCDs in general have let them more or less catch up to what plasma can deliver. You can get a LCD today that is image spec for image spec as good or better than our plasma panels that consumes a lot less power, weighs less, and does not need fans (which are sometimes audible) to cool it.

Some branches on the consumer technology tree are just dead ends, plasma turns out to be one of them. Its not really a loss this time, as we still have very nice alternatives.

Re:sad

[cayenne8]

Yep.

I'd gladly pay extra for good Plasma Screen TV's....

My current one is still working just great...59" Samsung higher end one I got a few years ago.

I'll be sad when it goes down and I have to move to LCD or whatever is out by then...but for movie watching, the DEEP blacks alone make my Plasma the way to watch....

I'm surprised they haven't kept developing and come out with a "High End" Plasma with 4K, etc....and sell to a higher end market which IS out there I do believe.

Re:sad

[careysub]

They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price...

They are staying in the niche markets where the margins are much higher.

Isn't that what I said?

No no, you are both wrong. They are staying in markets where they make more profit........

You are all describing three sides of the same coin (yes, coins have three sides).

Re:sad

[Ol Olsoc]

They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price...

They are staying in the niche markets where the margins are much higher.

Isn't that what I said?

No no, you are both wrong. They are staying in markets where they make more profit........

You are all describing three sides of the same coin (yes, coins have three sides).

And at least mine was trying to find more ways to say the same thing they did.

Re:sad

[Dcnjoe60]

But the development cost was already incurred. As such, since they were going to eat that cost anyway, they didn't have to figure it into the cost of the set.

Re:sad

[Dcnjoe60]

No no, you are both wrong. They are staying in markets where they make more profit........

Actually, that's not true. It's not about the volume of profit, it's about the return on investment. Making $1M in profit from a $2M investment (cost) is a 50% ROI. Making $2M in profit from a $5M is a 40% ROI. Even though the latter makes more profit, it is a poorer ROI and thus a poorer decision. Most companies would choose the 50% ROI and take the extra $1M they didn't have to spend and invest it. In short, One shouldn't chase profits, but instead ROI.

Re:sad

[AmiMoJo]

How was the development cost of a 4k plasma screen incurred when they didn't develop a 4k plasma screen?

Re:sad

[Dcnjoe60]

How was the development cost of a 4k plasma screen incurred when they didn't develop a 4k plasma screen?

Sorry, I misread your post to mean that since they had already moved to 4K for their high end models, that had included the 4K plasma and that the cost to the consumer would be too high. My mistake.

Re:sad

[Ol Olsoc]

Oh, for crying out loud, it was a gadammend joke.

Re:sad

[Anonymous Coward]

Sharp is now owned by Hon Hai, which is a Taiwanese company, not Chinese.

Just make a dumb TV

[Faw]

I really just want a dumb TV. No android, no apps, no speakers just inputs.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[TeknoHog]

I really just want a dumb TV. No android, no apps, no speakers just inputs.

So... a monitor?

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[boarder8925]

I really just want a dumb TV. No android, no apps, no speakers just inputs.

So... a monitor?

Monitors lack TV tuners. So I myself would say No.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[boarder8925]

Never mind. "Just inputs" rules out a built-in TV tuner. Sorry, my reading comprehension seems to get worse when I'm multitasking...

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[Anonymous Coward]

I really just want a dumb TV. No android, no apps, no speakers just inputs.

So... a monitor?

Sure, a monitor... but with all the extra niceties that come with a TV. Built-in tuner, remote, ability to properly handle video refresh rates properly, lots of inputs/types of inputs, and even the increasingly unnecessary audio passthough can be helpful in some cases. Also, while speakers aren't necessary, a headphone jack would still be nice, because a cheap & easy way to set the correct audio delay on your receiver is to listen to the audio from your receiver and TV at the same time. Do it once and never use it again.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[quenda]

Monitors lack TV tuners. So I myself would say No.

What's a TV tuner? Oh, you mean that DVB box between the HTPC and the antenna on my roof that has not been used in years, but we keep around in case of an extended internet outage? 99% of free-to-air is advert-infested reality TV and reruns. Anything decent I can get from their websites on demand, or "other sources".

And even if you do want DVB, what sort of Nerd uses the built-in tuner on a dumb TV?

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[jezwel]

Exactly what I used to have (before I accidentally put an elbow through it) - the biggest, dumbest TV I could get. Turned out to be a 55" Samsung. Minimal post processing, no 3D, no USB inputs.

Re: Just make a dumb TV

[Bing Tsher E]

Nerds don't necessarily pay cable bills. There are lots of other priorities.

Lots of us would rather order stuff from Digi-Key or Element 14 with that money. Or upgrade the stepper motors in the mill.

You don't call out nerds for not watching enough teevee.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[Anonymous Coward]

ATSC tuner

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[jtownatpunk.net]

When's the last time you used the tuner in your TV?

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[ITRambo]

When cable went out for a day. The picture was sharper than cables' HD signal, until trucks drove by, then it froze.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[quenda]

ATSC tuner

[googles ...] OMG! Why do you folks have to do everything differently? I sometimes wonder why you have not already dropped English for your own home-invented language. (I suspect Trump is planning that.)

I know why NTSC - the US implemented colour TV first, and by the time other countries adopted it, the technology had improved but NTSC was entrenched in the US.
But why not DVB? Is it because it is specified in metric units?

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[antdude]

Which companies still sell those as new, good quality, and huge sizes today?

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[Anonymous Coward]

A good quality monitor lasts for years. Tuners need to be replaced all the time to keep manufacturers alive (well, officially it's to make room for more channels = more reruns of the same crap nobody watches).

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean a VCR/DVD/BR recorder without outputs to TV? You know, because the screen is an output.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[TeknoHog]

"Just inputs" rules out a built-in TV tuner.

This is basically how I understood it, though technically RF counts as an input. The combination with "no speakers" was relevant here, because the tuner will also output audio in some form. I've yet to see a TV with a tuner but without speakers; if you're already bundling a display with your tuner, then you'll probably have speakers for a similar reason. (Does "just inputs" mean no outputs? In that case, how are you going to get the sound out of the tuner without speakers? ;)

As others have pointed out, tuners will break and evolve, but a good display will last over generations of different content technologies. The only caveat can be with display input standards, but there aren't that many proper digital ones to choose from. My current workstation monitor is from 2004, and at the time there were lots of displays with analog only inputs, despite being digital flat panels. In fact, I didn't have any computers with digital display outputs at the time, but I made sure the monitor had at least DVI.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[msk]

Every day since the TV was new. I haven't had a cable box in years and I haven't had cable TV in over a year.

Box rental for channels that don't need to be scrambled is a scam.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[AmiMoJo]

The problem with using a dumb monitor as a TV is the lack of image processing. TVs heavily process images before displaying them, to account for differences between colour gamuts (especially with SD material), hide noise and compression artefacts, improve motion etc. PC video playback apps do some of that too, but generally speaking a video played back on a PC monitor will look inferior to the same video on a reasonably good TV.

Sources like DVB boxes and your HTPC don't do much or any processing, so will not look as good on a dumb monitor. What you really want is a dumb TV that has all the image enhancement but none of the smart features. Or, just buy a smart TV and don't connect it to your network.

Or do connect it and firewall everything except YouTube and Netflix. That's what I did.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[serviscope_minor]

Monitors lack TV tuners. So I myself would say No.

Then that would be an incredibly awful TV!

It has no speakers, and inputs only. So, OK, RF goes in, it displays pictures, but you're stuck watching silent films forever.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[cayenne8]

When's the last time you used the tuner in your TV?

Actually quite recently, I'm experimenting with HD OTA antennas for the local channels, in my quest to start cutting the cord....

I'm figuring if I can get (and record to DVR) local OTA channels, and streaming...I can get rid of UVerse once and for all......

So, the tuner is a part of the equation.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[LWATCDR]

"And even if you do want DVB, what sort of Nerd uses the built-in tuner on a dumb TV?"
I do.
I use my antenna to watch the local network station morning news before I go to work. It is great for traffic, weather, and local news. You know things that are happening near me.

Re: Just make a dumb TV

[Anonymous Coward]

65UF675V 65" LG ULTRA HD 4K TV. I enjoy my TV with no build in generally purpose computer. http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-65UF675V

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[drinkypoo]

PC video playback apps do some of that too, but generally speaking a video played back on a PC monitor will look inferior to the same video on a reasonably good TV.

I have color-corrected my moderately fancy Samsung 25.5" IPS with ye olde el cheapo eBay-sourced i1 Display LT, and a SyncMaster something or other. I also have a Viewsonic 25.5" IPS but it has atrocious persistence.

Anyway, what I notice about watching videos on my PC under Win7 and VLC is that if I let my GPU do the acceleration, the video looks snazzy AF. It's a 750 Ti, so it's both budget and old. I noticed that video cards that are actually fast are still over $200, and I'm cheap, but it seems to have very nice video output.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[drinkypoo]

I am currently sitting at a Samsung 25.5" IPS triple-input display (VGA, DVI-D, and HDMI) and not only does it have speakers, but it even decodes the HDMI audio from my PineA64. (My PC is connected to the DVI.) But it's got no tuner to mess things up. It does have dynamic brightness and contrast, but naturally I don't use them.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[TeknoHog]

Monitors lack TV tuners. So I myself would say No.

Then that would be an incredibly awful TV!

It has no speakers, and inputs only. So, OK, RF goes in, it displays pictures, but you're stuck watching silent films forever.

Displaying pictures is a kind of output. An input-only TV would not be terribly useful as a TV.

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[quenda]

I use my antenna to watch the local network station morning news before I go to work

But can't you get that over the internet as well?

Re:Just make a dumb TV

[LWATCDR]

Not during a hurricane and frankly not local news. I can go and read the news but I can listen to the newscast on TV while getting ready for work. They could offer streaming over the internet and I can do that but it is easier to just turn on the TV and get the same thing.
Broadcast tv is a good technology for real time broadcasts of data. It works well and frankly is free vs internet. I have a generator so I can watch TV when the power is down after a hurricane when I might not have internet for days.

Frankly with digital tv it is a real shame that more people do not put up antennas. Why pay for cable when you can get a lot of TV OTA for free? Add in that if you are watching OTA they can not track what you are watching.
That should be a big deal for a lot of tin foil hat crowd.

Great, the Sharp and Hon Hai ones are garbage

[Anonymous Coward]

We've had a nearly 50% failure rate with both. This hurts.

Re: Great, the Sharp and Hon Hai ones are garbage

[Anonymous Coward]

Sharp has always tried do be 3/4 of the price and 1/2 the quality of Sony. I used to hate having to sell Sharp when I worked retail. So often I'd lose a customer for good.

Re: Great, the Sharp and Hon Hai ones are garbage

[slew]

Sharp has always tried do be 3/4 of the price and 1/2 the quality of Sony. I used to hate having to sell Sharp when I worked retail. So often I'd lose a customer for good.

AFAIK, Sony didn't make LCDs for their TVs, most of the panels are made by Sharp or Samsung (depending on the models). For the smaller Sony branded TVs, sony went with even cheaper taiwanese panel makers (e.g, CPT, AUO, CMO). Sony did augment their TVs with their own digital signal processing logic and LED back-lighting scheme, but I'm pretty sure panel was pretty much the same one in Sharp...

Re: Great, the Sharp and Hon Hai ones are garbage

[drinkypoo]

Yep, mostly Samsung panels. Despite a power supply hum I enjoy our 52" Sharp AQUOS LCD, the picture is great from pretty much any angle and the brightness is great.

Well that made broadcast monitor buying easy

[sunderland56]

There were only two manufacturers of professional TV monitor panels: Sony and Panasonic. Now there's one. Guess I'll grab another Sony before they realize they're a monopoly.

The irony of a Panasonic TV set with a Sony display is going to be great, though.

Re:Well that made broadcast monitor buying easy

[adolf]

Pro displays sound exactly like the higher-margin, lower-volume, more-specialized stuff that TFS says they'll continue to be doing.

That the bottom has fallen out of the television market doesn't mean that there isn't any profit left in making other LCDs.

Re:Well that made broadcast monitor buying easy

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck Sony and their evil ways.

If only the medical market worked like electronics

[Applehu Akbar]

We would live to be 500 years old, all diseases would be cured, prescriptions would be $5 a fill, and surgery would be free if we handed over our personal preferences to advertisers.

Survivor Taiwan

[retroworks]

Japan has withdrawn from the display market before (CRTs) And has done so grudgingly, but smartly, each time. It is the chips and software where successful nations (Japan and USA among them) prioritize. Korea and Taiwan (which runs Shenzhen) are still in the game. I have been interviewing some of the display experts of the 1970s-90s. Panasonic's "arm-length" relationship with its display subcontractors in Indonesia deserves a book in itself.

Re:Survivor Taiwan

[cdrudge]

Taiwan (which runs Shenzhen)

How exactly does Taiwan run Shenzhen?

Re: Survivor Taiwan

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

Oh, how the mighty will fall

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also easy to advance when you constantly borrow money from other countries with no hope of ever paying it back. You could use all that free money on your own people, or choose as you do to kill brown people with it.

If you believe in Panasonic then clap your hands!

[Narcocide]

Come on Panasonic. Don't go into the light! You can survive this!

Re:If you believe in Panasonic then clap your hand

[HornWumpus]

Panasonic is a DBA of Matsushita IIRC. Like half the Japanese 'name brands'.

Re: If you believe in Panasonic then clap your han

[Bing Tsher E]

Panasonic makes decent cheap alkaline batteries. And great capacitors.

Videophiles got ruined by clever, evil marketing

[AbRASiON]

The LCD marketing folks with their "Plasma will use ALL the electricity, Plasma will DEFINITELY burn in, instantly!!! LCD picture is better anyhow!!! and Plasma will *EAT YOUR CHILDREN*" stuff, well they kinda won sadly...

RIP Plasma - I still have my Panasonic and even with the mild (very mild) image retention aside, I'll deal with it for the blacks and colours.

We still don't have OLED at reasonable sizes, with reasonable life expectancy and reasonable prices sadly. I'm just praying my 65" Plasma lasts me at least another 4 or 5 years. I'm hoping to see 85" or larger, OLED 4k displays under $2500 US by then.

I would hate to be in the market for a TV right now.

The Race to the Bottom

[jasnw]

I bought a Panasonic plasma TV five years ago and I love it. It lives in a room that requires a TV that has a good picture at high viewing angles, and plasma did that better than anything else I've seen. I recently started looking at a replacement (planning ahead) and have decided that TV tech is going backwards in terms of providing a good product. I was looking at a Panasonic LCD set, but now that's out. I refuse to buy Samsung for many reasons, not the least of which being their obvious desire to sell their customer's privacy to aid in their bottom line. A nice, stupid, well built, display only, TV would be perfect, but I doubt anyone is going to make those. Truly, your next TV will be a refrigerator/phone/fax/surveillance-camera/listening-device swiss-army-knife sort of beast that only does one thing well - compromise your privacy.

Re:Videophiles got ruined by clever, evil marketin

[Anonymous Coward]

No, "videophiles" are a bunch of early-adopting twits that cried when their favorite tech lost the war. It lost for good reasons.
1) LCD is cheaper. This is the main reason plasma lost.
2) LCD runs cooler. You don't need an extra A/C unit to cool the damned things. Doubly so for LED-backlit ones.
3) LCD has fewer problems with moving parts and/or spillable liquids. Kids drop shit and knock shit over, all the damned time. When it falls, does it break? When it breaks, does it make a mess and ruin the carpet? Plasma does instantly, LCD does slowly. Also, LCD's are plastic instead of glass and don't shatter as easily. See also: DLP's failure from a million tiny mirrors and the jostled, misaligned servos that control them.
4) Burn in...? I've seen plasmas that had this for a little while, but most of them recovered just fine. It was never as bad as old CRT's were. Nevertheless, LCD's don't have this at all, not even temporarily. While it's not a big issue, it's just one more bullet point in favor of LCD.

All of these reasons add up to one thing: People with real lives and all of the messes that go with that are the largest part of the market. Waving a few thousand dollars around is not adequate to make your tech obsession worth anyone's time or trouble. You aren't rich enough to be worth creating a niche market for. And let me be clear about this: nobody is. Thousands aren't enough to bother with. Millions aren't enough to bother with. Billions would be worth it, but anyone with billions to spend is smart enough not to spend it on a damned TV.

Re:If only the medical market worked like electron

[Anonymous Coward]

And the Sony liver replacement wouldn't be compatible with standard kidneys.

Re:If only the medical market worked like electron

[Anonymous Coward]

Which rock have you been living under?

If the medical market worked anything like modern electronics, we would on average be live to the age of three, and the first time we get sick, we would be euthanized because replacing the entire unit is cheaper than replacing a $0.10 capacitor.

Well that made broadcast monitor buying easy

[kangpaper]

There were only two manufacturers of professional TV monitor panels: Sony and Panasonic. Now there's one. Guess I'll grab another Sony before they realize they're a monopoly. The irony of a Panasonic TV set with a Sony display is going to be great, though. The best Magento 2 Affiliate - Magento 2 One Page Checkout - Magento 2 SEO and Magento 2 Blog Module - Magento 2 Vtiger - Magento 2 SugarCRM and Magento 2 Odoo - Magento 2 Tutorial - Magento 2 Order Manager - Magento 2 Product Feed developed Mageplaza.com

You missed Toshiba

[speedlaw]

Bought a "Toshiba" TV set at Best Buy. When I got it home, found it was a "Best Buy" set with a Toshiba name, and that Toshiba no longer sells TV sets in the US. Don't see how anyone can be making money in this market. A 50 inch used to be $4k, then dropped to 2.5k, then dropped to the current $700....

Re:You missed Toshiba

[TheSync]

"Toshiba" brand TVs in the US are manufactured by Taiwan-based Compal Electronics.

Re:Videophiles got ruined by clever, evil marketin

[TeknoHog]

We still don't have OLED at reasonable sizes, with reasonable life expectancy and reasonable prices sadly. I'm just praying my 65" Plasma lasts me at least another 4 or 5 years. I'm hoping to see 85" or larger, OLED 4k displays under $2500 US by then.

Also, who wants "OLED" when every screen on the market is now called "LED" for their backlight only...

Re:Videophiles got ruined by clever, evil marketin

[ShooterNeo]

Don't forget, reasonable frame latencies. I've been wanting to get a 55" 4k to use as a computer monitor for a while now. The prices have come down to about $1800 on sale, but the current models have embarrassingly bad 50 ms+ latencies.

The reason this is embarrassing is that the physical panel changes image in under 1 millisecond. The slow latencies are because the manufacturers are skimping on the chips used to drive them (or maybe the electronics for OLED don't have fast refresh chips available yet. I don't know for sure, the VR headset teardowns show custom FPGAs in them. )

And yeah, burn in is another problem. I may have to "limp along" on a mere 4k LCD monitor for a while still. (since no burn in, and available displays have faster refresh rates than OLED TVs)

Re:If only the medical market worked like electron

[serviscope_minor]

prescriptions would be $5 a fill, and surgery would be free if we handed over our personal preferences to advertisers.

True, but they might also abandon the heart transplant half way through, or possibly decide you wanted a new leg there instead. Also, the prescriptions would randomly stop working, and anyway they'd just change the formula and strength every week.

Or, to ressurect the old joke:

Bill Gates: If General Motors had kept up with the technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon."
Chairman of GM: Yes, but would you want to drive a car that crashed twice a day?

Re:Videophiles got ruined by clever, evil marketin

[matchhead650]

About #4, LCD's most certainly do have burn in. For whatever reason one day when I closed the lid to my laptop the monitor didn't shut off, 2 days later when I opened it again the image that was on the screen had been burned in. Granted it quickly (within a couple of hours) fixed itself with normal usage, it still happened. I believed as you did that LCD's don't burn in, but do some research on it and you will find that it does happen and is almost never permanent.

Re:Videophiles got ruined by clever, evil marketin

[dave420]

If it's not permanent it's not technically burn-in.

Re:Videophiles got ruined by clever, evil marketin

[matchhead650]

I was referring more to the fact that the AC said not even temporarily, it very much can. I agree that technically it is not burn in, but it looks like it and searching "LCD burn in" will give you the most results on how to get rid of it faster. Plus on the off chance it is permanent, not probable but not impossible, then it's burn in.

Re:Videophiles got ruined by clever, evil marketin

[AbRASiON]

LCD was cheaper due to mass production, any product produced in high quantity like LCD would be cheaper.
Cooler running? At one point yes, Plasma was getting better every year, more efficient, cooler
Spillable liquids and carpets? I not only have no idea what you're talking about, but I googled and can't find shit on this either, my understanding is there is possibly a gas inside the panel, no liquid. Also the % of them which get smashed and you need to worry about the carpet, what?
Burn in? Was getting better, plasma was still worse than LCD though

It still produces and inferior picture and at one point in time was getting very good sales. Good enough to be electronically viable until the marketers decided to make claims about LED that were simply untrue.