EFF Delivers 210,000 Signatures Opposing Trans-Pacific Partnership (eff.org)

An anonymous Slashdot reader writes: "The TPP is simply bad for tech users and innovators," writes the Electronic Frontier Foundation, arguing the proposed trade agreement for the Pacific Rim "exports the most onerous parts of U.S. copyright law and prevents the U.S. from improving them in the future, while failing to include the balancing provisions that work for users and innovators, such as fair use." At a press conference, the EFF delivered 210,000 signatures gathered in conjunction with other activist groups "to call on Democratic Party Leader Nancy Pelosi to stop the Trans-Pacific Partnership from going to a vote during the 'lame duck' session of Congress following the November election."

More signatures are still being collected online, to be delivered on July 21. In a statement, the EFF adds that the TPP also "does nothing to safeguard the free and open Internet, by including phony provisions on net neutrality and encryption, trade secrets provisions that carry no exceptions for journalism or whistleblowing, and a simplistic ban on data localization...to buy off big tech."

Comments

Wrong, evil and going to happen

[frovingslosh]

Sure the TPP is wrong and evil, but Disney and others in Hollywood want it and have bought our political leaders, so it is going to happen.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[The Real Dr John]

There is massive public opposition to the TTP and TTIP on both sides of the Atlantic. When people learn what is in it, they invariably don't like it (unless they run a large multinational corporation, like Disney). It still may pass, but I wouldn't bet on it at this point. Even Clinton, the most corporate owned presidential candidate in history, has been forced to say it is a bad deal for the people. Of course, her surrogates at the DNC platform convention have refused repeatedly to formally denounce the TTP, so that says something about what Clinton would do once back in the White House again. Still, it is going to be a big stain on any politician's record who votes for it. There has never been this level of organized opposition to a trade deal. This time, now that there has been 20 years to assess NAFTA and CAFTA, many of the offending politicians may be voted out of office in the next election.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[The Real Dr John]

I should add that there may be lots of opposition to the TPP on both sides of the Pacific, but I haven't heard as much about complaints from the Pacific member states as I have from Europe about TTIP.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[ShanghaiBill]

I should add that there may be lots of opposition to the TPP on both sides of the Pacific, but I haven't heard as much about complaints from the Pacific member states as I have from Europe about TTIP.

TTIP is seen in Europe as purely an economic issue. But TPP is seen by many Asians as also a security arrangement, binding them into an American led world order, as opposed to the alternative of a Chinese dominated system. It is really too bad that TPP has so many flaws, because in principle it could have been good for both America and Asia.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[Fire_Wraith]

Very much this. A number of the Asian signatories, such as Japan, appear quite worried about the TPP not passing, because they equate it to being left to the mercy of China. It makes me rather angry with the assholes that pushed for all the intellectual property crap - not that there shouldn't be IP rights, but not the way that the eternal copyright maximalist group wants.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[Anonymous Coward]

NZ has had large public protests but there is support for it here if we actually got to vote on support/not support I am sure it would be a clear not support winner our democracy doesn't go that far. (we did get to vote on a flag though)

The IP and parmac rules are the most troubling for NZ and the expected returns from TTPA is 1% gpd in 30 years (less than normal growth)

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[ShanghaiBill]

It makes me rather angry with the assholes that pushed for all the intellectual property crap

Indeed. Many people in Asia are frustrated because Americans are turning against TPP because it contains so much crap that was included at the insistence of ... America. So Asians caved in to America on nearly every issue, and then America turns its back on the agreement anyway. Maybe the next time we are negotiated one of these agreements, the politicians should listen to the American people rather than just the corporations.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[fustakrakich]

There is massive public opposition to the TTP and TTIP on both sides of the Atlantic.

There is noisy opposition from a minority. The vote count does not reflect any opposition. Look at who is winning elections all over the world.

Even Clinton, the most corporate owned presidential candidate in history, has been forced to say it is a bad deal for the people.

Clinton (and all the other top candidates) will say anything. Her past history on the matter speaks much louder than whatever she says on the campaign trail now. We already went through this with the health insurance bill. There is no reason to trust them on TPP. They will go where the money tells them to go.

The simple fact is that TPP will pass, unless we vote out the incumbent parties.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[frovingslosh]

What you mean to say is What they tell us the election results were. They sure don't match reality. You don't have to look any further than the California Primary to see the massive election fraud in the United States.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[fustakrakich]

On what are you basing that?

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[hairyfeet]

According to the US state dept's own guidelines? According to the state dept "any election in which the results are more than 2% off the polling results should be considered illegitimate"...well guess what? Most of the democratic primaries failed to meet this standard with CA going as high as 12% off.

So if we actually held our own country to the same standards we hold the banana republics? The entire primary would have to be held again. BTW isn't it awful funny that every single state where the polls and results didn't match went to Clinton? And that the ones where the results were the most off were ALL those that used electronic voting? Gee, one would think that someone out there wants to insure HRC is the next POTUS.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[youngone]

I live in one of the Pacific states affected by the TPP. There have been many, quite large protests against the TPP, but they get almost no press here, or anywhere else I assume.

For instance there was a march through the main street of our largest city last summer, which was held on a Saturday, as most of the protesters had jobs, and were not the usual rent-a-mob crowd.

I happened to be in town at the time, and witnessed at least 25,000 people marching. It hardly got any mention at all on the TV news that night, just a short clip, and a dismissive piece about "protesters", but it looked pretty big to me.

As others have said, the TPP is only good for big business but our Government is really keen on it, and the opposition can't seem to grasp the advantage they would have if they opposed it properly.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[rtb61]

Keep in mind the leaked response from the Australia government representatives who actually signed the accord, "It was worse than swallowing dead rats". As to why they were swallowing dead rats in the first place, perhaps it was part of the Toilet Paper Protocol (for what it does to countries constitutions) initiation. It looks like they have zero chance of getting it through, they are just making themselves look worse and worse. I think they keep pushing it, even though they know they have lost because they believe they will have gained ground on pushing it through next time.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[fustakrakich]

Those are weird guidelines if they're talking about media polls, and to me that's garbage. Your daily horoscope is more accurate than a damn media poll. The weather forecaster is more accurate. If there is a problem, then you recount the ballots. It's up to the voters to demand real paper ballots that can be counted. And no matter bad the fraud might be, if people don't contest the results, not a lot can be done. This the game they choose. They want to push the button and go home and complain for two years. But they won't lift a finger to oversee the process. Democracy is high maintenance. It's hard enough choosing between Dominos and Pizza Hut.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[frovingslosh]

Bernie had overwhelming support in California filling stadiums while Clinton was hard presses to even fill a schoolroom. Young voters complained of having their registration switched from Democrat to Republican in high numbers. Pool workers complained of being given bad instructions that claimed that Independent voters could not vote in the primary (it turn out in California they are legally entitled to vote in either primary). Exit polls can usually spot any obvious problem, so none of the major media players did any exit polling in California. As others have pointed out. Hillary "won" in states with electronic voting with no paper trail and did much worse in states with a paper trail and hard records of the voting.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[MrL0G1C]

"TTIP is seen in Europe as purely an economic issue"

Eh? By who, not by the people of the EU.

Home - Stop TTIP Stop TTIP
Over 3 million signatures against, US has got some catching up to do!

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[Archtech]

TTIP is seen in Europe as purely an economic issue.

Not by me it isn't - and not by many others who voted for UKIP and Brexit. Just like the EU, TTIP is mainly designed to take effective power away from national governments - which, however imperfectly, represent and are answerable to their citizens - and give it to faceless and utterly unanswerable individuals and corporations.

As far as I am concerned, TTIP is purely a political issue. And it's as important as Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus, trial by jury, or representative democracy - because it threatens to undermine or demolish all of them.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[iris-n]

TTIP is seen in Europe as purely an economic issue.

No it isn't. It is rather political, mainly because of the insistence of the US in demanding investor-state dispute settlement, i.e., that corporations should have the right to overturn laws that threaten their profits. Besides that, there is also the European aversion to GMOs, that would be sold here if TTIP were approved.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[iris-n]

There is massive public opposition to the TTP and TTIP on both sides of the Atlantic.

To be honest Europeans don't really care about the TTP, they just really dislike the TTIP.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[The Real Dr John]

Also, Clinton only won when independents were kept out of the voting. Clinton's political machine and the DNC had control over the primaries all the way down to the precinct level. They could pull strings everywhere. Like Bernie said, it is going to take a political revolution in this country to take it back from our criminal corporate overlords.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[mrchaotica]

Surely somebody has posted video of that 25,000 person march to Youtube?

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[laughing_badger]

You do realise that you've taken the matter as regards the UK out of the control of the EU, where TTIP will never pass due to strong opposition by the French, and placed it in the hands of a Conservative UK government that is strongly in favour of passing it?

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[Archtech]

We have to tackle one problem at a time. The EU was the greater threat, and had to be dealt with first. If the British people cannot see to it that their government rejects TTIP, they don't deserve to retain their independence. But I have confidence that they will.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[Grishnakh]

Well that should be a lesson to them then. Don't cave in to America! They should have pushed back, especially on the IP crap. We regular American voters don't want all that corporate crap, that's why we're all screaming about it being a bad deal. It's only a good deal if you're one of a few giant American corporations; for everyone else it sucks.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[mschwanke97402]

Where is this MASSIVE opposition? 210,000 signatures isn't much. There were way more than that at WhiteHouse.GOV to have Justin Bieber deported following his string of arrests. Note that he is still here.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[mschwanke97402]

Bernie already said the Clinton won the nomination fairly by the rules in place.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[mschwanke97402]

Actually, if there were 20 or 30 million signatures that might be the only thing that would catch politicians' attention. They take corporate money and do the bidding of the corporations because they want to stay in office. If there were evidence of huge voter opposition, enough that corporate money would not overcome voter antipathy, the TPP would go down in flames. 210,000 signatures is statistically insignificant. So, yeah, the politicians will do whatever.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[The Real Dr John]

Yeah, right. That was as fair as it gets, right? The DNC was helping Bernie the whole way, right? Yeah right.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[youngone]

Probably, but the point I was making is that a protest that big ought to be news, but was largely ignored.

Re:Wrong, evil and going to happen

[davester666]

In yesterdays news, the promises a politician made prior to being elected turned out to be nothing but a complete lie.

EFFin' copyrights

[rmdingler]

There are not a great number of causes worth getting behind any more, but the free and open internet is decidedly one of them.

This is not only a Democratic pillar, as your conservative candidate may also oppose this rendition of the treaty.

Re:EFFin' copyrights

[Cajun Hell]

Ugh. Sobering link. What pieces of shit these people are!

Even when this thing tries to make them look "good" by putting them on the right side, it shows them to be deplorable people who should not ever hold any policy-making office in government.

Raise wages, increase jobs, yadda yadda. Where the fuck is the talk about civil rights? Basic fairness and justice? These are totally irrelevant issues for the leading Republicrat candidates, and it shows in every damn word they say about almost any issue. All they care about is bribing you, never ever protecting your rights.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[plopez]

Now that that pesky democracy thing has been nipped in the bud, the Democratic party is doing the right thing. Supporting their masters....
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/...

Trump is the Iron Fist. Clinton is the Iron Fist in the velvet glove. I'm voting Trump, at least he honest about who he is.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[ShanghaiBill]

Just go vote.

Both Donald and Hillary oppose TPP. Gary and Jill also oppose it. Nobody running is for it.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[schnell]

Now that that pesky democracy thing has been nipped in the bud

People keep saying this and I really, really don't understand it. Donald Trump's nomination - in the face of implacable opposition from nearly every major Republican officeholder, megabucks donor and deep pocketed SuperPAC - is proof that democracy is alive and well, in the sense that the guy who got the most votes won. Against all the entrenched elites and gigabucks influencers, the guy who got the majority of votes from our assembled Joe Sixpacks actually got the nomination.

Personally, I believe he's a buffoon and would be a catastrophe as President. (I think Hillary would be awful too but for different reasons.) But how can you say that democracy has been replaced with the politics of oligarchs and moneyed interests has replaced "one person, one vote?" Republican voters voted and got who they asked for. Not liking the results of democracy is one of its hazards.

Oh, and FWIW, both Trump and Clinton oppose the TPP despite the "establishment" of both of their parties supporting it. So there's another reason not to suggest that the Powers That Be will always get their way...

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[liquid_schwartz]

Both Donald and Hillary oppose TPP. Gary and Jill also oppose it. Nobody running is for it.

Hillary is on record as supporting it many times. When Sanders gave her more of a fight than she expected then suddenly she was against it. If elected, I fully expect her to go back to her previous position of supporting it. The Clintons are easily (and rather openly) bought. If money is behind it she will find a way to justify it. Much like Bill & NAFTA.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[plopez]

What about this? http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/...

If Hillary opposes it where is she?

Signatures mean nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

our politicians only listen to dollars.

Re:Signatures mean nothing

[Opportunist]

I still say we should start a Kickstarter campaign to buy one for the people, I mean, if everyone pitches in... How much can it be?

Re:Signatures mean nothing

[khandom08]

Evidently > $27

Reminder EFF is american

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people think EFF is for all people, I am Canadian, I was going to donate, but this just proves they are for American interests only, not for interests of Canadians, Europeans, Asians.

Re:Reminder EFF is american

[sumdumass]

So the tpp somehow helps you in Canada? Or is it that they did something without mentioning Canada?

What is it that makes a statement seemingly so moronic somehow justifiably insightful?

Hillary and TTP

[oldgraybeard]

Hillary as Sec of State worked to create TTP along with President Obama. And early in the election cycle fully supported it. It was only as Bernie started to cause her problems that she said she was against TTP. This opposition to TTP is only a smoke screen. Once safely in the Oval office she will return to fully supporting TTP. And will be pushing hard for it's passage.

Re:Hillary and TTP

[geezer nerd]

What is this TTP thing that you are mentioning? This thread is about TPP isn't it? As a resident of New Zealand, one of the countries heavily involved in the creation of the TPP, I have to say that I hope and pray that the TPP does not see the light of day. It imposes American corporate will on us little guys in a most ugly way. Unnecessarily heavy-handed IP laws combined with hideously expensive drugs combined with the right of multinational corporations to overturn our local regulations make it intolerable. I do not want to live with it in place.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[Tailhook]

Oh, and FWIW, both Trump and Clinton oppose the TPP

Trump's opposition to these trade deals goes back decades. Hillary's opposition to TPP goes back to when Trump started using it against her a couple months ago; before then she supported it, just like she supports NAFTA, MFN for China, etc., all of which her husband is responsible for. She'll enact TPP as well, after a suitable amount of time has passed and enough spin has been applied.

Hillary opposing TPP is as fake as a three dollar bill and the only people that believe it are her sycophants.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[plopez]

If Hillary opposes the TPP why isn't she supporting Sander's fight on the topic?

Sorry, but

[johnsmithperson123]

I already patented the idea of the "international trade treaty" and trademarked TransPacific Partnershipâ, as well as copyrighting the ©TPP text.

Disney likes there H1B's and with this bill they c

[Joe_Dragon]

Disney likes there H1B's and with this bill they can use it to wipe any bills that will change the law.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump opposing anything is as fake as a three dollar bill. You seriously think he'll do anything to block either TPP or TTP if he's elected? If so, I have an Internet to sell you.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[HiThere]

No, Hillary started waffling on the TPP during the Democratic debates. But I didn't find any clear statements against in for a long time after that, and she's one of the authors.

She hasn't be pushing the campaign to take a stand against it. I think she's still in favor of it. I'm likely to vote "Other".

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[reboot246]

The internet is not yours. I bought it last week.

Vote Trump! It's time to turn the bull loose in the china shop. (you have to say "china" the way Trump does)

Is This Just Another Worthless On-Line Poll?

[westlake]

It used to be you had to go out knocking on doors to get people to sign your petition. Running the risk of getting the door slammed in your face. Now you just post the thing the thing on a web site where the nay-sayers won't be around to spoil your fun.

Why Nancy Pelosi?

[phantomfive]

Why Nancy Pelosi? It's not her decision what gets a vote in the house, it's Paul Ryan.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[FlyHelicopters]

Trump is the Iron Fist. Clinton is the Iron Fist in the velvet glove. I'm voting Trump, at least he honest about who he is.

Allow me to quote the average Russian Red Army Soldier in Leningrad in 1941...

"On one side we face an evil, ruthless dictator who will stop at nothing to crush us and get what he wants...
On the other side, we face Hitler, who will stop at nothing and crush us to get what he wants...
I'll pick the one who speaks Russian..."

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[Applehu Akbar]

To get anything actually accomplished, an outsider president must be accompanied by an outsider Congress. Vote for whichever of your local candidates has the least corporate support.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[FlyHelicopters]

Oh, and FWIW, both Trump and Clinton oppose the TPP despite the "establishment" of both of their parties supporting it. So there's another reason not to suggest that the Powers That Be will always get their way...

Clinton is full of shit, she totally supports the TPP, don't let her lies tell you otherwise...

25 years of her history say it loud and clear, if you bother to listen. 3 months of being against it because of the election doesn't mean crap.

Petitions are meaningless

[chromaexcursion]

Petitions are meaningless in federal law.
Signatures on nothing mostly, since most are electronic.
Anyone who wants to make this a single issue vote in Nov. really needs to wake up. Most Republicans support it.

If congress doesn't pass it before January, it may never pass. Just because Clinton won't oppose it doesn't mean she'll support it on her watch.
Don't make assumptions.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[Opportunist]

Stalin spoke Russian? He didn't even lose his horrible Georgian accent when he was drunk, no Russian would consider what he spoke Russian!

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[the_Bionic_lemming]

My guess is you weren't alive in the 70's.

I was, and I call bullshit on that article.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[the_Bionic_lemming]

Forgot to mention, a few years after that Ted Danson declared that in 10 years the oceans would be DEAD. All life - gone, because people were whatever.

Oh, and the "Acid Rain" years, where we were destroying the planet - those too.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[skids]

Hillary's opposition to TPP goes back to when Trump started using it against her a couple months ago; before then she supported it

Actually, she announced this posture in October of last year.

The truth, of course, is actually quite more nuanced than that, and had little to do with Trump. During her tenure as secretary of state, though, she did her job and represented the view of the administration that was employing her. After leaving that job, in 2014, she started to say she'd reserve judgment until the final deal was announced.

Re: The vote is on November 8th

[skids]

is it so actually so terrible for democracy that both of them will waffle and follow the popular opinion of their constituents?

Depends on how insane or transient popular opinion is... it can swing suddenly to really dumb shit, and then back in a matter of months. Also it is important to have a good grasp of which popular opinions are abandoned once a holder is fully informed, which can be statistically ascertained through focus groups. You don't want a leader who will order lead put into all water supplies because the public got some crazy idea that lead was good for you, and you don't want a leader who lays uncertainty at the feet of the economy by changing policy too rapidly just because the public cannot make up its mind.

Then there's demagoguery, where a preexisting ill-informed popular opinion is pimped into a frenzy by the politician. Or in other words, Trump, who would not be where he is without standing on the shoulders of those who did it before him.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[sethstorm]

Hillary is *saying* she opposes it. Her history says that she supports it.

Here's the Scoop

[retroworks]

The "most onerous portions of USA copyright law" are tiddlywinks compared to the "most onerous portions" of Japanese copyright law (citation Fuji vs. Jazz Camera, Lexmark vs. Arizona Cartridge Manufacturers). Unfortunately, Japan's interpretation of protecting OEM rights internationally ("e-waste" takeback laws were invented in Japan for reasons having NOTHING to do with environmental destiny and EVERYTHING to do with re-manufacture and reverse-engineering) seems to have metastasized in Asia. EFF is on the right side of this, but pulling TPP's finger from the hole in the dike may result in "the perfect is the enemy of the good", ie if the USA was the strongest proponent to protect copyright - Disney lobbyists aside - then it's speculation whether TPP "could have done more".

I'm not an expert in TPP, or what concessions USA made or even brought to the table to protect USA lobbyists. But I'm above average as expert in the fact that trade is generally anti-protectionism, and protectionism is generally anti-trade, and TPP, NAFTA, TAP, etc. are generally trying to remove barriers. Glad EFF is there, but when I interviewed them about Chinese and Japanese law they said they didn't have enough bandwidth to be experts in that, and since the point of TPP is to leverage Japan vs. China (which despite certain idiot comments is NOT PART OF TPP), we had to find common ground, ie try to compromise with Japan.

Re: Here's the Scoop

[Khashishi]

Free trade means open borders, unrestricted immigration. That way corporations have to compete on labor as well as goods. If corporations are allowed to move products but people aren't allowed to move, then it really isn't free trade. The EU had the right idea. The TPP, not so much.

Re: The vote is on November 8th

[Grishnakh]

You have to look at their motivations.

Hillary's motivation is money and power: she'll do whatever makes her richer, with "donations" to the Clinton Foundation or "speaking fees". She's not going to make more money by vetoing the TPP, but she stands to make a lot of money by passing it.

Trump's motivation so far appears to be feeding his ego, not making money from "speaking fees". I don't see how pissing off all the people who voted for him, and reneging on all his anti-free-trade rhetoric, is going to help him pump up his ego.

Re: Trump is against the TPP

[Grishnakh]

Why are the "globalist republican scum" his? He pledged support for Trump. Trump is not a real Republican, that's why he has the GOP in fits. Trump is as much in agreement with the mainline GOP as Bernie is with the mainline DNC.

Re:The vote is on November 8th

[skids]

Chalk it up to different expectations, then. While I'd prefer more honesty from her, I'll take competency and an record that is good on balance.