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Nicholas Carr Says Tech 'Utopia Is Creepy' (cio.com)

itwbennett writes: It probably won't come as a big surprise that Mr. 'IT Doesn't Matter' isn't a big fan of Silicon Valley's vision for the future, a future defined by autonomous cars and the inevitable rise of robots. In his new book, 'Utopia is Creepy: And Other Provocations,' Carr takes aim at the irrational exuberance of Silicon Valley, where tech is the answer to every problem. One of the exuberances that Carr takes particular exception to is the notion that social media is a better, freer form of media than 'old' media, which maybe makes sense coming from a former executive editor of the Harvard Business Review, but he does have a point. "The old gatekeepers, to the extent they were gatekeepers, have been replaced by companies like Facebook and Google and companies that really now have become the new media companies and are very much controlling the flow of information," Carr told CIO.com's Clint Boulton.

38 of 213 comments (clear)

  1. I like technology by NotInHere · · Score: 4, Insightful

    but only technology of the kind that I can compile myself, or at least I know I could because the source is available.

    1. Re:I like technology by omnichad · · Score: 3, Informative

      don't really understand the enthusiasm to use it for everything

      Not all technology is electronics. Hammers, spoons, and matches are all technology.

    2. Re:I like technology by Crashmarik · · Score: 2

      Have an EE Degree , MSCS and Phd CS.

      For any arbitrary piece of code on random hardwar, it will take me sufficiently long to analyze the source and schematics, learn the build tools, and get proficient enough so it worked, that I could never expect to do that for more than 1 percent of what I use. If that.

      This whole you can build it deal is mostly feel good non sense.

    3. Re:I like technology by yuriklastalov · · Score: 5, Funny

      Not all technology is electronics. Hammers, spoons, and matches are all technology.

      Which is why we're putting microchips in them so you can monitor it all on your smartphone. "Oh man, my matchbook app is telling me I'm almost out of matches. I'd better buy more!" *slams Amazon Eazy-Button* *high-fives Mark Zuckerberg standee, knocking it over awkwardly*

    4. Re:I like technology by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 2

      But that's not how other people think. The ability to influence your purchasing, quantify your tolerance for debt, front run your stock picks. That's their utopia.

      People like Turing and Hopper and Babbage might have saved countless years of effort, but they pulled a trigger on human misery we won't fully wade into for 20 years at least. And it will still be warm and inviting long before most people feel the undertow.

      No ones utopia is the same, and convenience will doom all but the luddites. At some point, you will have to decide if you like your tech enough to take it off grid, and then its just you and the compiler you wrote and the processer you mined and soldered.

    5. Re:I like technology by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

      There's always the need to employ people. The thing is, today, people spend 40% of their income on toys; they've increased spending on medical services; and they've decreased spending on food and clothing. Why? Because WE DON'T NEED TO EMPLOY AS MANY PEOPLE TO MAKE FOOD OR CLOTHING; we buy more medical services, more Netflix, more XBox, more iPad, and more cowbell than ever, and somebody has to run the factories.

      How many people run those factories?

      A hell of a lot fewer per product made than would have 20 years ago--so we buy twice as much crap, and need the same amount of people to work to produce that crap.

      As for distributing needed goods, more modern welfare systems (e.g. Universal Social Security) produce superior economic results; they are, however, infeasible if your economy is poor--this shit would have collapsed the United States economy in 1950, and dramatically improves it in 2015. When 98% of your spending is "means to live" and the Government wants to take 10% to make sure everyone else has the means to live, you suddenly can't survive anymore; and when 40% of your spending is "games and stuff I don't really need" and the government is *already* taking almost 20% of of your income to try (with dismal success) to make sure everyone has the means to live, snagging 15%-20% of your income for a replacement welfare scheme that works is not only feasible, but superior.

      You're still thinking in terms of "we'll all lose our jobs and then starve". Problem is the world of the future isn't "there won't be any jobs"; not in the long-run, anyway. In the short term, we can easily mishandle things and cause an economic crisis; or we can take steps to prevent such a crisis and transition onto a new golden age of extreme wealth spread among the lower- and middle-classes (the rich will still get more of it, and everyone will complain they're somehow poorer, but I don't honestly care).

  2. Utopia .NE. a good place to live by Brett+Buck · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Utopia of any sort, Plato's or otherwise, is intrinsically wrong, and completely anathema to the concept of individual liberty. I don't want a bunch of supposedly enlightened, supposedly superior masterminds controlling what goes on in *my* life.

    1. Re:Utopia .NE. a good place to live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You already *have* a bunch of supposedly superior masterminds controlling what goes on in your life, for reference: University study demonstrates that America functions as an oligarchy.

      Granted, they don't micro-manage you. They control you "from a distance," as it were, allowing you just enough freedom that you don't notice the influence they have over you. But control you they do, and control them (with your puny votes) you do not.

      On a more related note....

      The rise of technology cannot be prevented. No level of political pressure will ever stop it. Each contributing step is in-and-of-itself innocuous, and the economic incentives to take said step are overpowering. We will have A.I. making most of our decisions for us, and we will love it that way. It is just a matter of time.

    2. Re:Utopia .NE. a good place to live by vux984 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We will have A.I. making most of our decisions for us, and we will love it that way. It is just a matter of time.

      Only if the AI is benevolent and enlightened and some how constrained to serve us. Or it might just decide we get in the way and tax resources it could use better elsewhere.

      Through the process of evolution we rose above the other animals; but really what would have been the difference if our intellectual ascension had been carefully orchestrated by a lesser species? Would we likely treat them any better today?

      What makes you think we would be served by a superior AI that we created in the long term?

    3. Re:Utopia .NE. a good place to live by knightghost · · Score: 2

      When was the last time an elected official went against the wishes of the people that elected them?

      Around here? 80%, maybe 90% of the time. Money wins votes.

    4. Re: Utopia .NE. a good place to live by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2
      No. Speed limits are a great way to save energy. I don't really drive much anyway (still on my second tank this year, last year was one tank).

      According to studies backed by the department of energy, the average car will be at its advertised MPG at 55 mph. But as the speed increases:

      - 3% less efficient at 60 mph

      - 8% less efficient at 65 mph

      - 17% less efficient at 70 mph

      - 23% less efficient at 75 mph

      - 28% less efficient at 80 mph

      http://www.mpgforspeed.com/

    5. Re:Utopia .NE. a good place to live by freeze128 · · Score: 2

      We will have A.I. making most of our decisions for us, and we will love it that way.

      Until the AI makes an Obviously wrong decision, or it makes a seemingly correct decision that causes hundreds of human deaths, or just makes a decision that the humans just don't agree with. Then the humans will take advantage of the "Manual Override".

      What? You say that you didn't build in a Manual Override capability in your AI? Well, then you shall be put on trial for "Crimes against Humanity".

    6. Re:Utopia .NE. a good place to live by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 3, Informative

      The most annoying part is that, when the humans are asked why these decisions are so horrific, they often have a difficult time answering

      Most likely, you're confused because you're presupposing the moral framework you consider appropriate: act-based utilitarianism. You then evaluate what people say by that framework

      But most people are not an act-based utilitarian. They may be a rule-based utilitarian, where firm moral rules ignore the details of the act. They could be a Rawlsian (if they care about outcomes), not trying to maximize total utility, but instead to maximize minimal utility (that is, maximize how well the worst off person is.) Or, they could be a Kantian, and believe that moral codes are based on respect for individuals right, regardless of consequence.

      But, in any of those cases, you're likely to have an issue because of, well, an axiomatic decision you disagree with at the onset of the reasoning process.

      --
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    7. Re:Utopia .NE. a good place to live by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      The most effective technique has been to get voters to vote against their best interests by confusing them. It's been going on for a long, long time. The American Dream (TM) is an example, where people are encouraged to support policies that favour the rich in the hope that they may one day get rich and benefit from it, or because it's presented as being "fair" in a "what's mine is mine" kind of way.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re:Utopia .NE. a good place to live by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      To me, this is the distinction between old and new media... old media had a handful of editors, many who collaborated, carefully crafting each day's message. Certainly new media places throttles and controls on the flow of information, but it's more of a general shaping of the flow rather than a 98% lock-down control of access. Any group you want to trade information with is now accessible, without physical travel or $20/hr domestic long-distance fees. Certainly the new "big media" companies still control the front page, but they don't limit the depth of the conversation, or the spread of its availability (great firewall and other exceptions notable, but much more rare today than in 1980.)

    9. Re: Utopia .NE. a good place to live by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      My 240SX got its best mileage at 75 and the 300SD gets it around the same spot, due to torque curve, gearing, and aerodynamics. (Or perhaps aerodynamisch) Both have super-low Cd, it was .26 for the 240SX and I had lowered it as well. Both cars had what you might call neutered styling, which is to say they didn't have much of it. Cars are becoming more aerodynamic these days though, even though they have styling, thanks in large part to virtual testing. They go into a real wind tunnel eventually, but those are expensive to operate. Being able to do more aerodynamic testing without the wind tunnel translates into being able to have styling and low drag; in fact, those odd-shaped plastic headlights often include vortex generators.

      Add to that the fact that most people will spend relatively little time at top speed, especially if you let them have more of it, and that it saves you from freeway construction, and it's a clear win.

      You know what would be useful? Mandating that on-board MPG estimates bear some semblance to reality.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Utopia .NE. a good place to live by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 2

      We will have A.I. making most of our decisions for us, and we will love it that way. It is just a matter of time.

      I agree completely, not because I enjoy the prospect or am some kind of Kurzweilian utopiast, but because it isn't that hard to see where things are going.
      People are now so beholden to their phones, that it isn't a stretch to see, perhaps 20-30 years from now, an AI "taking control", benevolent or not.

      A convergence of situations will give rise to AI as the only way for mankind to deal with the complexities of this modern world. once unemployment hits a certain threshold, say 25%, and the issues of how to deal with millions of formerly employed people hit us head on, the road to AI control gets closer. Self Driving cars? Self flying planes? Self steering ships? Automated stock trades? Robotic/autonomous security/police/military drones/robots/AIs? Automated/robotic food production/supply/distribution? IoT mesh awareness that feeds every word, thought and deed of every person alive into vast databases where small teams of humans assist the AI in making decisions that affect the entire planet.
      As you say, it is only a matter of time

      Will we love it that way?
      That is an entirely different subject.

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    11. Re:Utopia .NE. a good place to live by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      The same could be said of strict population management in China. They try to use economic incentives where possible, but they will resort to forced birth control if that's what it takes. The government ran models back in the seventies and realised that China was heading into a population explosion that would far outstrip infrastructure and lead to a poverty, starvation and civil unrest - a future so serious that it justified extreme measures to prevent. The whole world has now condemned the policy and the serious human rights violations needed to enforce it - and yet it did the job. China's population did shoot upwards, but in a controlled enough way that in one generation they have gone from an underdeveloped third-world country of peasant farmers to a global military, industrial and economic superpower with a poverty rate of under 5%, while the adjoining country of India is at 12%. Sometimes the ends really can justify the means.

      Many would argue that it is better to live a life of freedom in poverty than a life of material comfort beneath the boots of tyrants. These are people who have never had to worry about their child dying of malnutrition.

  3. The problem is the need for organizations by Casandro · · Score: 2

    I mean most of the ideas would be fine, if there wasn't some sort of large organization behind it. It doesn't really matter if that organization is non-profit or not, they all have to act in ways to keep themselves existing, even if that goes against he will of their users.

  4. Re:If your bread is buttered, you're stoked. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Funny

    let me ask you: could jesus microwave a burrito so hot that even he couldn't eat it?

    I could use some good news, now, jim. lay it on me, bro!

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  5. Utopia, American Style by Hasaf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Utopia, American Style, is turning out to be a hell for most people. Eventually we will need either some form of guaranteed income or guaranteed employment. The only alternative is mass despair, and the chaos that will come with it.

    1. Re:Utopia, American Style by fsagx · · Score: 2

      In Soviet Russia, Tech Utopia say "Nicholas Carr is 'creepy.'"

    2. Re:Utopia, American Style by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Utopia, American Style, is turning out to be a hell for most people. "

      Which is why nobody wants to come to the US. Not from Mexico, not from Europe, not from the poorer parts of the world.

    3. Re:Utopia, American Style by DarkOx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not really we just need to stop playing "Team America World Police" if we say closed most of our international military bases withdrew from the current conflicts we are engaged in and focused only on defense both of the home land and merchant ships at see it would be a fraction of the cost. We could take those savings and fund much of domestic spending. That would allow not only tax cuts but less borrowing which would curb the hidden inflation tax.

      We could probably go back to single income households for the most part. With that halving of the labor participation rate there would be plenty of jobs to go around automation or otherwise.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    4. Re:Utopia, American Style by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Which is why nobody wants to come to the US. Not from Mexico, not from Europe, not from the poorer parts of the world.

      Mexican emigration is net negative now. They figured out that brown people are "never" (for some globally-influenced value of never) going to get a fair shake in America, and they've gone home. The impoverished people still coming here are still coming here because there's an even higher risk of being executed by police in their country than there is here. The risk here is measurable, but in their home country it's substantial. People coming here from countries with money are coming here with money to take advantage of our depressed economy.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  6. but it doesn't have to be that way... by Narcocide · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's too much money in social media, just like there's too much money in politics.

  7. The old gatekeeper... by Zargg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, he does not have a point about old media vs new. "Trust us, we're good gatekeepers, while those other people are BAD!" is not a good argument...

    1. Re:The old gatekeeper... by swillden · · Score: 2

      The point here being that the new media are actually gatekeepers, something that doesn't occur to a fair few

      And the old media were also actually gatekeepers, something that didn't occur to a fair few.

      It's possible that the new ones are worse than the old ones, but merely pointing out that there's a change from old to new doesn't imply anything about which is better or worse.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  8. Who? by 110010001000 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Who is Nicholas Carr? Let me guess: he is a "thought leader".

  9. I don't think anything much is gonna change by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I could be mistaken, but I'm already seeing the ruling class clamping down on the free flow of information. Police shot a black woman and had her Facebook feed disabled. I half got my hopes up that everyone having cameras would change that sorta thing but the cops learned to take the phones. But it took 'em a while to learn that. They seem to have learned the Facebook video lesson much quicker...

    If I have a hope for technology it's that birth control (particularly for men) will force birth rates low enough that the rich will have to treat labor OK because there won't be enough to abuse. But then with automation they have no use for labor. So unless we're gonna drive the population to around 10,000 I think we still have a problem. After all, what good is being rich if nobody's poor to boss around?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  10. Re: If your bread is buttered, you're stoked. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, but God can. Understanding the reality of the contradiction is one of the keys to understanding the nature of God.

  11. Re:Blame Craigslist by RichPowers · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yep, the whippersnappers probably don't realize how profitable local newspapers used to be. Indeed, they were one of Buffett's favorite investments in the early days. From a 1977 WSJ article: "Warren likens owning a monopoly or market-dominant newspaper to owning an unregulated toll bridge. You have relative freedom to increase rates when and as much as you want." [1] When the economics are like that, you can afford prestige journalism and professional reporters.

    The WSJ article also notes how Buffett made a killing buying the Washington Post Co. at a significant discount to book value; the company's huge investment portfolio wasn't factored into the stock price at the time. Fast forward several decades, and now Bezos owns the actual newspaper and WaPo brand.

    While there are legitimate *technology* companies in Silicon Valley, the ad-delivery/social media "it's 1999 all over again!" outfits for some reason get all the attention. Looking at some of the large employers in the area, you realize a huge number of people earn a paycheck from firms that sell ads, make CRM software, and run social media services (in the red quarter after quarter). It's sort of like the West Coast Wall Street: too many overpaid assholes doing stuff of no useful value to human civilization. (And both groups are enabled by the torrent of easy money from the central banks, which makes all sorts of bullshit possible.)

    [1] http://www.rationalwalk.com/wp...

  12. Blame the tools! by JosephDoeden · · Score: 2

    Making better tools has always totally been a bad idea! Lets not make new tools because the old tools are less effective, but we are used to them and change is bad. Fuck Change. Trump 2016!

  13. Re: If your bread is buttered, you're stoked. by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

    I'd totally peg Jesus to be the burrito guy over God.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  14. Re:Old Media = HRC and Trump by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

    Meaningless correlation.

    (Democrats-wise) Based on my discussions (highly scientific!) people over 40 who voted for Hillary honestly admired her from the 90's, and while they may have voted for Obama in 2008, they weren't voting against her. People who are younger often skew more socialist, and Sanders would appeal more to them.

    (Republican-wise) I'd suspect that the cause is that people aged 45-65 are more likely to unemployed/underemployed, are looking at the world changing (and leaving them behind) and want to wind it back. They're easy to convince that if we can wind back immigration/free-trade, then their skills will be required, and they'll be able to continue their career/have a retirement like their parents.

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  15. Re:If your bread is buttered, you're stoked. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

    There is a problem with automation: The entire economic structure of society is built on the assumption that (almost) everyone has a job. If you don't have a job than you can't purchase the essentials like food, shelter and clothing. Automation has worked so far only because demand has always grown to match supply, but there is no guarantee that will continue to be the case.

    In the worst case scenario, auto-farms and -factories produce near-limitless supplies of goods, but the cities are flooded with people unemployed and living in poverty: They don't have five cents to buy even the super-low-cost food, and the people who own the farms have no economic incentive to give away their product. So food just rots in the silos, and the people starve.

  16. Re:If your bread is buttered, you're stoked. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

    That only happens if you automate the entire stack and eliminate all human labor entirely. Failing that, luxuries move downward from the rich to the poor. For example: the rich used to be able to taxi carriages, while the poor walked; then people could afford horses; now everyone owns cars.

    When the hot-blast furnace was invented, it made 86,400 tonnes of iron in the same amount of invested human labor as the prior process required to produce only 400 tonnes. This (and new steel rolling process) allowed us to create railroads, increasing trade, reducing the cost of goods to people (by producing them where the least labor was required), thus allowing people to buy more goods. That moved some luxuries down into the hands of the common man, as those luxuries cost less of a man's year's worth of labor--it took fewer labor-hours to make, thus the wages paid to a man in a year were divided smaller into that good--thus the common man can buy more. Cheap steel? Cheaper machines to mine oil and coal; cheaper rail car rides; cheaper transportation; eventually, cheaper automobiles.

    The cost to manufacture a cell phone and to operate a cellular network has decreased. The level of service possible in the same cost has increased as a result. Back in the day, a fiber optic line could carry about 1Mbit/s of data, and running thousands of them together could get you 1Gbit/s; now we can carry 2Gbit/s, 8Gbit/s, or 10Gbit/s over multiplexed fiber, and can run dozens of them to get hundreds of gigabits of connectivity. We don't need massive data centers sucking tons of power to process all that, either; each unit of network hardware today handles hundreds of times the data as a similar machine produced in 1985 would. That $4,000 cell phone with $0.42/minute voice back in 1984? It should be $9,000 today, with about $500/month of service cost for 2 hours of voice per week; instead, it's a high-end smartphone that only costs $350, stores 64GB of data, has 8 CPU cores, and gives unlimited voice and text/media messaging as well as a couple small gigabytes of high-speed data for $60/month.

    90% of American laborers were farm workers in 1870; it's under 2% today, and about 10% more support the farm with chemicals (fertilizer, pesticide), equipment (tractors), and energy (irrigation, fuel). The result is food costs a fraction of our budget--just in 1900 the median family spent 43% of their income on food, and today it's almost 11%--and we buy tons of other goods, including more healthcare, leading to a lot of retail jobs, IT jobs, and medical service jobs.

    Your worst-case scenario happens if we drop all of the new tech rapidly. Raise minimum wages, raise payroll taxes, increase the cost of a worker, delay regulation enabling the use of autonomous drivers and drone delivery, and then finally cut it loose all at once and tell businesses to go ahead and replace that $15/hr pizza driver and the expensive shipping infrastructure with machines sans operators; watch a third of the jobs in the country vanish overnight. If we stabilize it by supplying a non-wage income (e.g. a universal social security), reducing payroll taxes (your employer pays less to employ you, and you receive the same wage), and countering general unemployment by reducing or eliminating VAT and sales tax, then the changes come spanned across large timescales, and consumer buying power moves around, and we avoid a severe unemployment crisis.

    Not simple. Doable, and important to understand if you're going to keep an economy from collapsing during a period of sudden technical progress; but not a trivial task, in any case.

  17. Re:If your bread is buttered, you're stoked. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

    There is a factor you are overlooking - is there a limit on consumption regardless of cost?

    Compared to a hundred years ago, we live like kings. The only thing there's a shortage of where I am is affordable housing - other than that, life is pretty luxurious. Even those in menial jobs can afford clothes so cheap that no-one bothers to repair them any more, all the furniture we want, highly sophisticated appliances, and the 'essentials' like electricity, communications, water and a sewage system.

    But how much, really, can people possibly want? If you make clothes cheaper, will people buy more? They are already disposable. If you make food cheaper, will people buy more? There's a limit to how many luxury goods a person has time to enjoy. Not everyone wants to have their own private helicopter. There's still a lot of scope for consumption to increase in some areas, like transport, but others are at saturation already: It doesn't matter how cheaply you can manufacture, say, books. People aren't going to read more of them because they are cheaper.