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How the H-1B Visa Program Impacts America's Tech Workers (computerworld.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the now-with-video dept.

Computerworld is running an emotional report by their national correspondent Patrick Thibodeau -- complete with a dramatic video -- arguing that America's H-1B Visa program "has also become a way for companies to outsource jobs." An anonymous Slashdot reader quotes the article accompanying the video: The vast majority of people who work in IT did everything right: They invested in their education, studied difficult subjects, kept their skills updated... But no job is safe, no future entirely secure -- something IT workers know more than most. Given their role, they are most often the change agents, the people who deploy technologies and bring in automation that can turn workplaces upside down. To survive, they count on being smart, self-reliant and one step ahead...

Over the years, Computerworld reporter Patrick Thibodeau has interviewed scores of IT workers who trained their visa-holding replacements. Though details each time may differ, they all tell the same basic story. There are many issues around high-skilled immigration, but to grasp the issue fully you need to understand how the H-1B program can affect American workers.

45 of 332 comments (clear)

  1. The skill they need to teach in IT school... by penguinoid · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... how to work long hours for next to nothing.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    1. Re:The skill they need to teach in IT school... by cahuenga · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In short - "It is entirely reasonable for American citizens to endure a drop in standard of living down to Third World levels in order to fluff corporate profits."

    2. Re:The skill they need to teach in IT school... by gwolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Fifteen years ago, I was offered a job at Yahoo, in California, making close to four times my then-current salary in Mexico City. About US$70K a year. That money, even today, is a shitload of money for me.
      Of course, I declined. I declined even being unaware of the ridiculously high costs of living in the San Francisco Bay area — I declined because I didn't want to stop living at a city I love, close to my family and life-long friends. But yes, digging a bit deeper into what US$70K a year would be for a living there... I never looked back.
      Currently, I have been employed for 11 years at the same place. The peso has slided against the dollar, so I still make slightly over US$20K a year. I live a very nice life in a house very well located. I don't have much savings, but then again, I did have something to fall on when my kids were born. Have never had a loan. My wife does not currently work, but we estimate she can go back to doing so in 2-3 years, and then we will get some savings again.
      What would there be in there for me going for a life at a country that will always see me as a foreigner? Not much, I guess.

  2. Impossible... by Mashiki · · Score: 2, Informative

    Fully impossible I say. The usual pro-H1B supporters on here say there's nothing wrong, and it's really good that all these people are being brought in to displace American works and push wages down. Just like how it's happening here in Canada with TFW's and employers are laying off employees because they don't want to pay the wage, then paying the 1/3 the wages that they were going for. And that ranges from welders and pipe fitters to skilled factory labor and IT.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
    1. Re:Impossible... by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They don't even teach welding in highschools anymore, you need to go to a specialty college to learn even the basics. Seems to me though, your "stuff being taught at highschool" isn't. Rather it can grant partial college credits towards an applicable program...in college, we had that 20 years ago too. But a college doesn't have to honor the full amount that is gained, and the board of education can drop the accredited amount when you least expect it.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:Impossible... by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The usual pro-H1B supporters on here say there's nothing wrong, and it's really good that all these people are being brought in to displace American works and push wages down.

      The sad truth is that not all H1Bs like the situation either. I met one who worked for an American international subsidiary in India and was now a H1B in the US. Four of them lived in a two room apartment, provided by their employer. They never went out to lunch with the other American folks on their project . . . because their wages were so low, that they could simply not afford it. Instead, they went home and cooked for themselves.

      The one I met lamented that he wanted to go back to India to get married and start a family. He also commented that they could sense the disdain for H1Bs among their American colleagues.

      So, American workers do not like H1Bs, the H1Bs don't like being H1Bs . . . who likes the H1B concept? Oh, yeah . . . top level management. Well, at least someone is happy here.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    3. Re: Impossible... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > They could likely afford it, but the typical H1-B is hoarding as much money as possible so they can take it back to their country.

      Of course they are. They're being thoughtful, responsible people planning for a future, and perhaps even planning for their family's needs. Americans spending s much as we do on "entertainment" as part of our work life, on expensive lunches and expensive hobbies is why so few of of my younger colleagues in the field have any savings, or fallback plans if their startup stock options turn out to be worthless.

      There are reasons to dislike the results of H1B immigration. Fiscal caution by the H1B holders is not a reasonable one.

    4. Re: Impossible... by corychristison · · Score: 4, Informative

      I completed highschool 10 years ago (2006).

      I took Welding (Gas, Arc, and MIG), Drafting and CAD, Computer Science, Carpentry, and Electronics. My high school also offered Machining, Autobody, Small Engines, etc.

      It was drilled into our heads that College/University was required to enter the real world, but many of my graduating class that took the "trade" courses went right out into the work field and learned more as they need it in the field.

      I started my own business in high school doing web design. Out of high school I worked full time "regular" jobs in advertising, direct sales, retail, low voltage wiring (ethernet, coax, 18-2, 18-4), security system installation, and then locksmithing.

      My business slowly grew as life progressed. While working for the locksmith I had an opportunity to focus on my business fall in my lap and I took it. Since then business has only picked up and grown year-over-year.

      I am Canadian, living in Canada. The majority of my clients are in the US. :-)

    5. Re:Impossible... by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, as a pro-H1B supporter, you're wrong.

      I fully acknowledge that there's something wrong. Companies like TaTa being able to bring over tech-workers for non-specific, non-highly-skilled generic coding jobs, and then contract them out is very very very wrong. What that does is generates immigration of people with mediocre skill sets, who will likely be net neutral on the economy, but a net negative on the wages of people working in the tech sector.

      That's really not good.

      On the other hand, what H1B should do (exclusively - it does this anyway, but it should *only* do this) is allow companies to hire people for very very specific jobs, with very very high wages, where it's not possible to find someone else to do it. There absolutely are legitimate H1B workers coming in and doing jobs for Google/Apple/FB/MS etc that no one else in America has the skills to do, and being paid multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. That's good both for tech employment (as it makes products possible that weren't before, and in doing so makes companies more profitable, and hire more people), and for the economy. An all round win.

      I can assure you, that if companies like Google/Apple/FB/MS could hire Americans for a role, they would not jump through the hoops of hiring a European for $200,000 a year, plus $150,000 worth of moving them to the US, plus tens of thousands of dollars in paying for visas and green cards. The key is to make sure that all H1Bs are for that kind of role, not the bullshit that TaTa does.

      [Disclaimer] I'm an H1B holder working for one of the above companies in a very specialist area.

    6. Re: Impossible... by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      I completed highschool roughly 10 years previous to that in the middle of the 90's. My group was the last to have welding, drafting/cad, carpentry and electronics, or even basic electrical work. We were also the last group to do machining, pipe fitting, or automotive. Every program relating to that was cut, gutted, and removed. Right up until this upcoming year those programs haven't existed, they were all replaced with arts, or just really anything else that they could think of that was no use. Even the 4H sponsored programs were removed. I lived in a very heavy farming area around 90% of the kids were all farm students, there were 4 highschools(now 3 where I used to live), multiple grade schools(around 7 then, 4 now). Roughly the same middle schools. Class sizes went up, number of schools went down. And number of classes disappeared too. The middle schools here don't have anything in their music classes that we did. When we were in grade 6, we were playing on the "big band" instruments, now? Nothing higher then a recorder until grade 9.

      Most of my friends though, went directly into the jobs they wanted as well. Several of them are mechanics to this day, own their own shops(some of them several), two own specialized shops that deal with only modern electronics in cars. All the dealerships contract through them to deal with any electronics issues. But it was a different time, people who were smart went into manufacturing and expanded their skills there. These days, the kids graduating from highschool have learned less then those of us from 20 years ago and were taught that those trade skills were unimportant because they'd all be working white collar jobs.

      I'm also a Canadian, living in Canada. I'll bet that you learned that outside of Ontario too. Since around 2001ish the provincial government implemented a "all schools will teach exactly the same thing" programs. Even in '97 when my sister graduated, those programs were gone and they were moving towards the "all schools teach the same stuff"

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    7. Re: Impossible... by LinuxLuver · · Score: 2

      It's also happening in Australia and New Zealand, though Australia's stronger union's are putting up a better fight. The recipe seems to be: kill the union's then bring in check, throw-away foreign workers. Americans should be matching in the streets. Turn the TV off and stop gaming for a few days and have a look at what's really going on around you.

      --
      Only boring people are ever bored.
  3. no job is safe, no future entirely secure by turkeydance · · Score: 2

    in other news....

  4. Up to date? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The only response 'modern' technologies seem to get from Slashdot is how the 'old way is better'' and "it'll never work". "Those kids are going to have to deploy apache servers BY HAND like I used to. None of that Docker Cloud Crap".

    For example "graphical programming languages", which by Slashdot standards are terrible, has a lot of job openings. There are plenty of jobs for hardware in the loop (HIL) testers. Same goes for people that know CAN/J1939 and the tools that go with it

    For those training their replacements, I don't see what the problem is. I hate doing parts of my job, I've already done it once. I would be able to train a high school graduate to do 90% of it and if they have questions I'll be around for the other 10%. But it means that I get to concentrate on doing something else. If you're doing the same thing for more than a year heads up, someone or something is trying to automate it and replace you. Unless you think companies should still be bootstrapping a new Laptop instal by hand instead of having an imaging server.

    I'm sure the older engineers that were replaced by kids straight out of college that knew CAD thought they were 'highly skilled' workers as well. Turns out an engineer that can draft is cheaper than an engineer AND a drafter. But don't let that get in the way of the narrative that your skills are 'up to date'.

    There are jobs out there. A lot of them.

    1. Re:Up to date? by fermion · · Score: 2
      The last point, about the college kids, is a good point. What engineers learn is that there is a new gradated class while employers pick the best of, and then replace their worst employees. From what I can tell employees get three years of training, and if they don't do well, they get replaced. It is not all milk and sugar for the graduates. There are years when less than 50% of graduates get hired because really only the bad employees are going to get fired.

      One wonders why employees choose to train their replacements instead of just quit. It seems to me that if a person is so qualified that they are being fired no for cause but just because they are too expensive, they could get another job. It is like complaining that there are no more jobs in the US, but never buying a product made in the US.

      Clearly if the visa program did not exist companies would be forced to hire the maybe less qualified US workers, or perhaps open office outside the US. OTOH, I tend to believe that the US is the greatest place in the world, with a great deal of cheap capital, and many people agree. The problem is that people in the US tend to be much more complacent about living up to that greatness than highly motivated people in other countries. It is the greatness of the US that encourages workers to come here, not the ability of employers to pay less. Yes it may lead to the same outcome, but if we look at the former we only complain, but the later gives us solutions.

      Here is what happened to me early in my career. At first if was easy because I was competing with the to 5% of the 18-30 year old living in the US, those who had access to technology but also to schools who were more interested in teaching novel skills than the three R's as we used to call them. As the years went on, and more people became computer literate, in the broad sense, not MS Office, then I had to compete with more people. Finally, I was competing with the world, and at that point, since I was not in the top 1%, it all fell apart, so to speak.

      Again, when I was a kid the entire engineering class would be hired straight out college. Now one can be in the top 50% and not be hired. It is not just visas, it is not just that technology has made things more efficient, it is also that so many of us are simply complacent about our futures.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    2. Re:Up to date? by RichPowers · · Score: 3, Informative

      Lots of people are incapable of thinking like the owner of a business, and are therefore surprised when things happen, despite it being obvious or inevitable from the perspective of a shrewd businessman. As a corollary, employees of public companies should get in the habit of reading financial disclosures and earnings call transcripts -- management often telegraphs what they're going to do, including outsourcing or layoffs. This puts you in the position of being one of the first passengers to learn that the Titanic has struck an iceberg, so make your way to the lifeboats before the rush.

      A few months ago, there was an article about how the IT department at a car rental company was outsourced. Not that I'm glad or anything, but someone paying attention should *never* make a career out of working in the back office of a business like that. The car rental business is tough enough as it is, but Uber/Lyft have added additional pressure.

      I work in a compliance function, so "infrastructure as code," Docker, and the rest of that shit make my life so much easier since we can automate large chunks of our security controls and audit work. That's progress. As an owner, having fewer admin grunts means more money to reinvest in higher-return activities (which as an employee you can help drive, if you're so inclined) and/or return to shareholders, who, after all, own the damn business and expect something from it.

      But this hard-nosed perspective, for some reason, strikes people as cruel, or you're viewed as the villain or whatever. It's just how the world works and you have to adapt accordingly, even if it's annoying and extra work at times.

    3. Re:Up to date? by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2

      Lots of people are incapable of thinking like the owner of a business,

      If we did that the most ethically sound decision would be to kill ourselves. The sort of thinking those people engage in, while it makes sense from a very narrow perspective, either leads to sociopathy or depression. That humanity still exists is due largely to the fact that most people refuse to think like their leaders.

      It's better to live in delusion.

  5. The H1B program could easily be fixed by hey! · · Score: 3, Insightful

    to work the way that it is sold as working.

    (1) Keep the number of H1B workers about the same.
    (2) Bring fewer new H1B workers into the country by offering permanent residency to ones already here.
    (3) Require participating companies to meet minimum goals for H1Bs converting to permanent residency in order to continue participating.
    (4) Since fewer new H1Bs will be coming in, raise the standard so they really do bring in hard-to-find skills.

    Good people don't just take jobs. They create jobs. That's why employers like to locate in tech centers -- concentration of talent. So if someone's good, bring them in and keep them. It's beyond folly to have a program which kicks good people out of the country, along with skills and know-how that they've accumulated. It's disloyal to the country.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:The H1B program could easily be fixed by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

      It's disloyal to the country to prioritize economic migrants over citizens. One is invested in the future of the nation. The other is not.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  6. Here's a simple thought by MikeRT · · Score: 2

    Maybe all of that social justice stuff is really just a ruse to get people to think they're not a bunch of greedy monsters who have more in common in their attitude toward paying workers with John Calhoun than Bernie Sanders. One reason I'm voting Trump is Trump is precisely the sort of asshole who might call up the AG, ask if the statute of limitations under the criminal component of the antitrust laws has expired on the anti-poaching settlement and if the answer is "no," might say "bring indictments." Will he? Who knows, but it's a possibility and would be hilarious to watch some of these self-righteous fuckers face the full wrath of the federal government in criminal court.

    1. Re:Here's a simple thought by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So let me get this right..

      You are voting for a guy who regularly stiffed laborers of their pay (hundreds of cases on record), who stiffed subcontractors and other businesses on their pay, and who said he was using u.s. labor when he was found to be using foreign labor.

      P.T. Barnum put it best. There's a sucker born every minute.

      Fortunately, Trump has basically lost the race.

      Just for funsy's go to Youtube and search for "trump praise clinton". You'll see only 7 years ago he was saying she was terrific and would make a good president or vice president.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  7. Re: Dey tek er jebs! by netwiz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not really a function of price so much as a function of skill level. Most of the H1-B folks I've had the displeasure of working with had very little experience, skill, or talent. Were there actually a glut of workers in IT, I'd say it made sense, but there aren't, and it's getting worse every day as more are imported annually, displacing folks that make better business sense to hire in every aspect save for price. There's a saying, "you get what you pay for." It may look good on paper to replace that $150k/yr rock star programmer with five $30k/yr H1-Bs (supposedly illegal, but it happens, and more often than you think), but one high quality developer will consistently produce more and better code than an army of mediocre ones. The biggest issue with this is, even though IT business process automation represents a major part of a given company's competitive advantage, if all the companies in a market play the same game and begin to all suck equally, any lack of advantage due to poor systems becomes moot. As a result, what used to be smart work done by smart workers becomes the domain of the MyComputerCareer lowest-common-denominator. And real fast, we're all out of a job.

  8. Amazingly facile by Uberbah · · Score: 2

    It's amazing how much tech folk can sound like auto workers in the 80's bitching about Americans buying foreign cars.

    Were those workers being replaced in a government-run program to import foreign workers to labor in Ford and GM plants to lower wages? No. Are those objecting to H1B basing their complaints on having to compete with software companies located in other countries? No.

    Does that mean you have the lamest analogy in the story thus far? Yes.

  9. Direct from the No Shit Sherlock Institute. by BenJeremy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Corporations laugh at the regulations that are never enforced unless there is some sort of massive publicity. Even then... Our congress is bought and paid for.

    I'm amazed at all the idiots who think a billionaire who has gone bankrupt (yet somehow still has billions) many times with failed businesses is going to change that.

  10. Re:Dey tek er jebs! by Mashiki · · Score: 2

    Every other complaint is just a variation on "I shouldn't have to be price competitive because I was born in America".

    You meant to say: "I'm fine with a company importing in people where there is a demand for jobs that Americans could do, then displacing me from my job with someone from another country, making me train my replacement who will work for 1/4 of the wages I worked for."

    Yep brilliant. Millions of people out of work in the US and not in the labor force, and you're pro "let's bring in more people, and make sure they drive the wages down" while there are people who could do the job, but the companies don't want to hire because they can find someone from a 3rd world shithole at a cheaper price and can legally import them.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  11. Be a Licensed Profession, folks... by rbrander · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm wearying of it, but so far I just post the same thing over and over when I read about this topic. You don't see this with comparable white-collar high-knowledge professions like accounting, teaching, law, medicine and engineering. ...because they are all licensed.

    This is not about unionism or protectionism. It's not holding onto the job for nationalism's sake or racism. Any race can get a license, indeed foreigners can be licensed - if they can pass the tests. Most of this outsourcing is not about putting in equivalent people; it's about being able to afford more of them and make up for the lower productivity and accuracy.

    Information technology should be a licensed profession for multiple reasons; there are a lot of crappy local programmers that shouldn't have such jobs, too. This isn't about handy helpers or kid's games any more: our civilization depends on code that works right and we lose money, privacy and opportunity every day from IT failures. Medicine was not a licensed profession just a few generations back; it was licensed when it was time. For IT, it's now time.

  12. Increasing size of labor pool to save corps money by Uberbah · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People should stop beating around the bush and call this what it is: a government run program to subsidize labor costs for businesses and shareholders, to the detriment of American workers and taxpayers. "Fair market rates" only apply when they are to shareholder's benefit. When they actually give the worker a leg up for a change - fuck you, we're going to bring in some grads from India to do your job. Grads who can compete without five figures of student loan debt hanging over their heads.

  13. O RLY? by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 3, Insightful

    no job is safe, no future entirely secure

    When was the last time you heard of an H-1B worker taking a politician's job?

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    1. Re:O RLY? by OrangeTide · · Score: 2

      Politician's job? That's a real stretch of the word job, isn't it?

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    2. Re:O RLY? by meta-monkey · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I do get kind of sick of both the Republicans and the Democrats trotting out immigrants or children of immigrants as if that's some kind of badge of honor. The Republicans parade around Rubio and Cruz and Nikki Haley. Half of the speakers at the DNC were speaking spanish. Where's the speaker who says "My family has been here for 10 generations!" Isn't that kind of impressive? Maybe they've got some generational wisdom passed down? A strong stake in the future of the nation? There's nothing wrong with being from a recent immigrant family, but you'd think there'd be some kind of balance.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  14. Re: Dey tek er jebs! by jopsen · · Score: 2

    There aren't many 30k/yr H1Bs see the distribution: https://www.graphiq.com/vlp/YQ...
    And this is a strict lower bound, I make a lot more than what is reported in my LCA. Sure there is some abuse IMO 60-80k is problematic.
    Most likely it seems like you just need the laws to be enforced... Like so many other broken things in America.

  15. Re:Gotta love the hypocrisy by sims+2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I personally don't care if they allow people to immigrate.
    However what I don't like is that we aren't doing an adequate job of enforcing the current laws.

    Come on if you're going to live here illegally and drive without insurance you should not be given special haha can't touch me i'm an illegal privilege.
    Fine and or jail them like you would an american.
    Or if you're not going to punish them like you would an american why not ship them back out of the country?

    --
    Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
  16. Re: Dey tek er jebs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How about instead of a lottery, distribute the visas starting from the top paid applications?
    That would take care of the low end pretty fast.

  17. Re:Gotta love the hypocrisy by OrangeTide · · Score: 2

    The upper middle class doesn't give a shit what happens to the lower middle class, at least not until it happens to them. No big surprise there.

    But H1B's are not illegal. They name itself is from the legal code they use to work in this country.
    There is an argument to be made that importing skilled labor, which is what the H1B program is about, is preferable to allowing unregulated unskilled labor.
    Eventually the "hipsters" will make robots and self-driving cars to replace the "redneck" jobs. Self driving trucks will replace truck driver, robotic lawn mowers will replace the bulk of landscaping jobs, automated kiosks will replace wal-mart cashiers, delivery drones will replace big box stores, robots will move and find packages in warehouses, etc.

    (PS - I used to work in an iron foundry making car parts. The factory is gone now, even the building doesn't exist. It's cheaper to order the part from China than to pay me to make it)

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  18. Re:Dey tek er jebs! by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

    It all depends on what way of life the American government wants for its people. If you want an 'American' way of life that is somewhat better for Americans than everywhere else then you need to isolate to an American only market. I thought America prided itself on having a generally wealthy and peaceful population but apparently that part was for sale. Even worse, the way they opened up the global market it's not bad for everyone, just the poor and middle class.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  19. Re: Dey tek er jebs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    The problem is that good IT workers have no incentive to stay in the field. They go to management or they just say "to hell with this", and become a /r/sysadmin goat farmer.

    I have had the dubious pleasure of working with the H-1B folks as well. A few are truly competent. However, most tend to be clueless, and at best, willing to follow a sheet or spec you give them, but can't really do more than that. For example, if you ask a H-1B DBA who knows how to work their way around a RDBMS fairly decently, and who has worked with Linux on a user level, how to make a query that can run at certain times automatically, they will immediately say it is impossible or try to find a way to shirk that task onto you. They are also quite passive-aggressive and fond of the "CC" game, where they are unable to have a conversation with you unless it is via E-mail, and they carbon-copy as many PHBs as they can cut/paste from the Exchange GAL they can find into the conversation. If you ask them a question, they will reply (with managers included), questioning your abilities. If you ask them to do something, they will immediately throw any tasks back at you, adding stuff to the helpdesk ticket such as "as we discussed offline" (when no such discourse happened.) Of course, when you make a fool of them by replying and countering every insulting assertion, management sides with them regardless.

    The passive-aggressiveness and willing to fuck someone over at a second's notice is the worst part. I've had to deal with configuration changes which hosed a production box, and the way I proved that it wasn't me (oddly enough utmp was zeroed out, but the logs shipped to the SIEM box showed who was actually on at the time...) is the fact that I use etckeeper, and the change was not anything that was put into the git repo. Of course, the only other person with full sudo access to the box was the H-1B.

  20. Re:Gotta love the hypocrisy by meta-monkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The upper middle class doesn't give a shit what happens to the lower middle class, at least not until it happens to them. No big surprise there.

    Sure we do. We just get accused of racism/nativism/protectionism instead of lauded for our noblesse oblige.

    I remember this same discussion 20 years ago when I was in grad school for electrical engineering. I was a Pat Buchanan voter arguing with a neocon-ish professor at my lab about how important it is to keep manufacturing jobs in the United States. He said "but we don't want those jobs here, we want tech jobs." Okay, that's great in theory, but the vast, vast majority of our fellow citizens are not as intelligent as we Masters/Ph.D. electrical engineers. I cannot take a 100 IQ auto worker and run him through engineering school and have him come out with a 150 IQ. It doesn't work that way.

    I'm opposed to illegal immigration because it drives down wages and decreases the safety of my poor countrymen. I'm opposed to unfair "free" trade agreements because they eliminate the jobs and drive down the wages of my working class countrymen. The purpose of "the economy" and national trade and immigration policy is to serve the interests of the citizens. It is not the purpose of the citizens to serve the interests of "the economy."

    --
    We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  21. HB-1 delayed the inevitable by davidwr · · Score: 2

    If your job was going to go to India or some other country, it was probably going to go anyway, HB-1 visa program or no HB-1 visa program.

    With HB-1 visa-holders coming her to "learn the trade" at least there are a few man-years of work being done here, with those people buying lunch and paying rent and the associated taxes in this country for those man-years.

    I know my skills are "portable" and that if I plan on having a halfway-decently-paying job until retirement I need to either:
    * be someone who can't be cheaply replaced, anywhere in the world, OR
    * do work that can only be done locally (in-person sales, on-premise hardware-installation, etc.)
    * do work that can't be outsourced for legal reasons (government contracts, certain national infrastructure work)
    * work for a company or industry which can't easily outsource abroad due to financial, regulatory, or other reasons
    * change careers

    There is another alternative, but one that has a very high emotional cost as well as other costs (learning a new language, etc.): Emigrate to a low-cost-of-living country and live off of my accumulated life savings plus whatever meager earnings I can get there. Not every country would want me but many would be happy to have me.

    Yes, I'm being pessimistic, but I'm also being realistic. Most of my technical skill set - programming, troubleshooting, remote-tech-support skills, technical writing, etc. can be found in many other countries where the labor costs for people with similar skills are much lower than they are in countries with "highly developed economies."

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  22. Society is a sham ... by Qbertino · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... the poor proles masses pay for the few rich whilst fighting each other rather than revolutionising society. Especially the "American Dream" has gone down the drain. ... All this is nothing new.

    However(!!),
    there is a new force in the mix, and wether it's HB1 or whatever pushing your sob-story right now, we should prepare for what's coming, because HB1 and the likes will be a joke compared to those overturnings ahead of us.

    You have been warned.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  23. Re:Gotta love the hypocrisy by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

    Well, if you trace the origin of the neocon ideology it's ex-Trotskyites who wanted a more aggressive foreign policy (see Bill Kristol's dad).

    The problem we have now is "what happens when social experiments fail?"

    Neocons want interventionist war in the middle east. Fails. Solution: more war in the middle east.

    Progressives want welfare state. Destroys black families, traps them in generational poverty. Solution: more social programs.

    It's really, really hard for anybody to say "ya know, if we're in a hole, maybe we should stop digging?"

    --
    We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  24. There are plenty of job ADS. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are plenty of jobs for [this, that, and the other thing]

    There are plenty of job ADS.

    This is because, in order to hire an H1-B, the employer must first advertise the job to US persons.

    But there are whole classes given on how to gimmick the hiring process so that anyone who applies, other than the desired H1-B, can be plausibly turned down as unqualified. The US applicants waste their time, and the H1-Bs get the positions.

    Give us a call when there are plenty of HIRES of US citizens for these, or any, positions.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  25. This is why we need unions.... by iCEBaLM · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A lot of people deride unions, but unless we have them, corporations pull this type of shit again and again. The government is either apathetic or complicit, which means the only protection for this type of shit is unions.

  26. Re:Dey tek er jebs! by fluffernutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually I think it's more accurate to say "I can't be price competitive because I must live in the American economy". My generation didn't make things expensive here, that was done before me. We're just the unlucky bastards that are alive post-globalization and have to live with first world prices and third world wages.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  27. Re: Dey tek er jebs! by lrichardson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Absolutely!

    In part, it's all about how things look on the budget sheet. Replacing one North American worker for two Indian workers - and paying less - looks good. And the numbers can be shown to management. The downside - inferior code, taking longer to produce - isn't captured as neatly. And the numbers can't be shown to management anywhere near as easily.

    And one other fun fun fun detail ... managers get promoted based on the number of people they manage, not the total salary of their underlings. So replacing your home-grown, competent North American worker with multiple lesser-skilled, lesser-paid foreigners means the managers get bumped up a pay-grade.

    So ... while the outsourcing (or, in the case of H1-Bs, in-country outsourcing) means that companies pay much, much more for the same software, the people making the decisions don't care about that - they care about promoting themselves.

    And one final candle on the cake: the stock market punishes companies that deviate from the pack. If one company were to stand up and say "Hey, this outsourcing is costing us more! Let's stop doing it!" then their stock would take a hit. And corporations are run by the board, for the board: the largest part of their remuneration is stock options.

  28. H1b is a symptom of a bigger problem by zerofoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A country without borders is no longer a country.

    In an ideal world, the flow of labor, capital and ideas should be free and borderless - but we do not live in an ideal world.

    Countries have differing laws, social programs and structures. To protect a country's citizens and its social programs and infrastructure, there needs to be sensible immigration control.

    Flooding any nation with immigrants until social structures break benefits no one. Immigration is a noble thing (both of my grandparents were immigrants), but there are practical limitations that need to be enforced.

  29. Re:Or Maybe by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you want to see the bills you will. I recently had a CT scan, the average global price for this variety anywhere not in the USA (without dye, which is evidently much more expensive) is something like $500. The place billed by insurance for $15,000. My insurance paid the (evidently badly) negotiated price of $7500. I paid $1,500 out of pocket.

    I just can't even.