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HP Hit With Age-Discrimination Suit Claiming Old Workers Purged (mercurynews.com)
Hewlett-Packard started laying off workers in 2012, before it separated into HP Inc. and HP Enterprise last year. The company has continued to cut thousands of jobs since. As a result of the "restructuring," an age discrimination lawsuit has been filed by four former employees of HP alleging they were ousted amid a purge of older workers. The Mercury News reports: "The goal 'was to make the company younger,' said the complain filed Aug. 18 in U.S. District Court in San Jose. 'In order to get younger, HP intentionally discriminated against its older employees by targeting them for termination [...] and then systematically replacing them with younger employees. HP has hired a disproportionately large number of new employees under the age of 40 to replace employees aged 40 and older who were terminated.' Arun Vatturi, a 15-year Palo Alto employee at HP who was a director in process improvement until he was laid off in January at age 52, and Sidney Staton, in sales at HP in Palo Alto for 16 months until his layoff in April 2015 at age 54, have joined in the lawsuit with a former employee from Washington, removed at age 62, and one from Texas, out at age 63. The group is seeking class-action status for the court action and claims HP broke state and federal laws against age discrimination." The lawsuit also alleges that written guidelines issued by HP's human resources department mandated that 75 percent of all hires outside of the company be fresh from school or "early career" applicants.
It's that they're expensive.
Hell, I know a guy in his 50s who went into fetal position, rocking back and forth in an empty conference room, after being canned. Excellent engineer, but they have stack ranking at my employer.
fresh from school or "early career" = h1b
Older workers tend to get paid more and have higher health insurance costs. It's probably more about the wage than the age.
BTW, I'm not defending this practice. I'm getting a little ancient as we speak.
removed at age 62, and one from Texas, out at age 63
How is this not a good thing? Is America that low on the scale of employee rights that they didn't get an epic win out of this? We recently closed a plant and made everyone redundant. One of the guys was 62 and on the day it was announced he opened a $10000 bar tab and made sure everyone drank for free after his huge windfall. He forcefully retired on a wheelbarrow of money.
Zuckerberg's comment about not wanting people under 30 is the default stance of the tech industry. There's a reason we never saw a lot of people older than us in the workplace. It wasn't because we were a new generation doing new cool things, it's because tech has always been like Logan's Run.
Seriously, Tech is bit too wild west to trust over the long term. Live frugal and save like mad. Once you have enough money stashed away to guarantee you won't starve, then work if you want to and it all becomes extra FU money. You can't trust tech as a career beyond 50, and maybe not even to 45 in certain specialties.
But may be difficult to prove without a smoking gun, email etc. Otherwise company will claim they were purging more expensive employees for cheaper ones.
Typical corporate garbage, which is why no one in their right mind wants have a career now in Corporate America, b/c they know once they reach their 50's they become too expensive, outdated and replaceable in the eyes of Corporate America.
That was the best installment in the series, IMO. Ever seen a pissed off DBA? Damn son!
And the decline of the USA continues. Experience shits all over youth. At 22 I couldn't code for shit. At 31 I can do 20x what I could at 22 and my skillsets make actual money instead of junk. US tech companies are vastly overrated. I'd bet that 200 seasoned 40-65 year olds could build a much better OS than Microsoft or Apple could. And they wouldn't fuck up the control panel design either.
Age of retirement should be 40
then whine about not being able to find talent.....
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
in 2014 HP HR had a KPI that read "Top Talent Attrition", and yes, the higher it was the better they were doing.
To play devil's advocate, many older workers have not done themselves any favors. A large number are stuck in old ways and not willing to change with the times. I'm not saying companies need to always be on the bleeding edge or jump on every tech fad that comes around but new methods need to be adopted. One company I left recently had been on a slow downhill slide and now being overtaken my more nimble competitors. It was a battle between the entrenched old timers and the younger folks. Lip service was paid to virtualization so we could tell customer we "operated in the cloud." Automation/orchestration tools like Puppet, Chef, Ansible, and SaltStack were "not trusted" and everything was still done by hand or with buggy shell scripts. Everything was monolithic and slow. The unwillingness to updates skills was masked with the excuse, "I only deploy proven technologies." I landed at another company that is willing to take calculated, but not stupid, risks on newer technologies and we have been very successful. I now get more done in one day than I could in a month with old, geriatric tech.
It's that CEO CFO COO and other top execs wanted to break the law and pad their bonus payments at the expense of older American citizen workers
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
No wonder, the dude got stuck in a dead end position that did not contribute directly to the bottom line. And it was probably high overhead (with its own department budget) from the company's POV.
Now I'm sure that is curry I smell in the break room.
Put your money where you feel it's best-served... giving your money to companies that support (possibly) repressive and/or un-environmental policies need not be given more strength.
If you're an older person that feels companies routinely practice this policy, then don't buy their product.
There's more than one reason I don't shop at Wal-Mart... Whole Foods just made my shit-list.
The worst part is, and I understand this all-too-well, how does one get internet without supporting Comcast, AT&T, etc.?
No sig for you! Come back one year!
Maybe they should use 'The Purge' method. Lock em in the building and see who survives the night. That'll weed em out.
Executive compensation and excess is at an all time high, and yet they've convinced people to fight the elderly for the leftover scraps.
Trying to decide whether or not to name names, but in a sense it doesn't matter. As near as I can tell, ALL companies hate old employees. Various companies have various reasons, but I think high-tech companies (like HP and my former employer) might be the most hateful.
Experience is NOT an asset when no one has experience with the latest and greatest technology. Even if the old folks are willing to work as cheaply as fresh hires, and even if the old folks are fast learners, salary cuts are intrinsically demotivating. You can try disguises like "declining health", but they don't work well and job satisfaction tends to decline. Anyway, the bean counters at the top prefer fresh meat. Cheap.
In Japan the situation is especially critical because the demographic transition is resulting in lots of old people and very few young ones. The Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare (MHLW) has actually put out "guidelines" that strongly encourage companies to keep older employers who want to work until at least age 65, but the companies are just playing games with the rules.
Without naming names, I'm going to try to summarize "a friend's" experiences. For brevity, AF. The managers started pressuring AF to retire around 55, but AF declined. AF's job and working conditions were steadily made worse and then AF was shoved out the door ASAP, which was AF's 60th birthday. The MHLW had a response. Rough translation: "They aren't supposed to do that if AF wanted to keep working, but tough titties."
Anyway, I'm just an old philosopher, so I get to say "That's too bad" to AF. In philosophic terms, there are four quadrants to consider. Everyone wants to be in Q1 with good work and good compensation, and no one wants to be in Q4 with bad work and bad pay. The interesting cases are Q2, good work with bad pay, and Q3, bad work with good pay. AF wanted Q1 or Q2, but got shoved into Q3 and then Q4.
Me? I'm just an old bum who's outlived my usefulness. Insofar as most of my career was spent in Q1 and Q2, I can't complain too much. However, at this point it appears that my best outcome is to pass away before I exhaust my savings. I would contribute more to the economy if my new focus wasn't on minimizing my expenses, eh? You'd think the companies might be smart enough to worry about the loss of business from all of those penny-pinching retirees, but they obviously aren't that smart.
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
true, but most 40+ would not sit quietly and work 80h/week on a poorly managed project. People with experience seen too much to stand by it. Some companies fix this problem by getting 22y/o and work 3 shifts for same pay. Some get better management.
Can a class of plaintiffs take action aginst a class of defendants? Dell needs to be included in this action too. Not like we're going to get any relief from the government.
one colleague suggested this reason: student debt is increasingly becoming a problem for banks. They don't want students to get out of it. ...) and simply say: "do you want the cash flow keep flowing? Hire students!".
So, the same banks go to the companies that they give tons of money for investment (buy here and there, merge this with that
Basically companies subsidize students' debt (maybe it is right) at the cost of aged employees. One could argue that aged employees have other types of debts but maybe there are other mechanisms (federal backing?) that students debt don't have.
fresh out of school:
+ willing to work some to much OT without extra pay
+ will settle for less pay and benefits
+ cheap to replace if necessary
+ unlikely to give a big fight if fired ("easy to fire")
+ little to no lost assets if fired or quits
+ more open to new ideas and changing tech
+ cheaper insurance costs
experienced / old-timers:
+ heavilty trained and experienced at their position. efficient. certified.
+ has learned "the big picture" in operations, understands subtle effects and can head off future problems
+ has valuable and possibly unique organizational knowledge (undocumented information and processes)
+ has formed working relationships with other employees, improved efficiency and communications
+ more reliable attendance
+ less likely to leave suddenly
But the big issue I have with this article is how they act so surprised that a company more frequently ends up replacing someone with another person that's younger. Um, people get old. If you keep replacing your workforce with people of the same or greater age, eventually you're going to be running on a staff of people all hanging around retirement age. You have to get new blood in continuously, it's required for a business to continue. I don't see validity in calling "age descrimination" on hiring. On selective firing, YES, definitely. But not on hiring. I don't agree with the "equal opportunity employer" thing, I believe that a company/owner should be able to decide who they hire. Once you've established the business relationship with them, then some rules need to kick in, to avoid "disposable/throwaway employee" resource issues.
A lot of companies seem to see their HR as a source of funding they can tap into when times get tough, "reducing staffing costs" by canning the seniors and hiring cheap replacements. This rarely works out well for them. They don't need government rules to bring the pain, they bring it to themselves. Radio Shack just got done committing "suicide by seniority-culling". They fired everyone that either was doing well or knew how to run the stores, and replaced them with cheap labor that was inexperienced, idiot, or both. (they did several other stupid things that are OT, but this was one of the "big three" that took them down) And down they went. It's a self-limiting problem. If HP wants to lobotomize their human resources, I say let them. We'll see them bought out under duress after they tank a few years from now by someplace like walmart.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Some people need to keep going because their SSI check won't cover their living expenses unless they put in that extra 3-10 years. Some people won't be able to retire even then, either due to having a divorce, or getting started late on their Social Security payments, or only getting paid minimum wage for most/all of their life, etc.
There are lots of reasons for people to keep working well into their 70s or 80s, maybe some of them have health reasons that they SHOULD retire for, but unless *YOU* are going to get off *YOUR* ass and support them in their 'no longer useful' years, you really have no right to tell them to GTFO at 60 because they had '40 years of taking up space, so let the youngins take over'. The world doesn't work like that, and that sort of attitude is what is making shit worse, both in the USA and abroad. While I disagree with blind 'respect your elders' especially in regards to taking their advice or judgement, that doesn't mean you should get to decide when they get out unless you're going to pay for them to do so.
Pretty sure there are a few dozen/hundred others. Maybe we should start a thread listing the worst offenders for layoffs, h1bs, etc and start name and shaming them in this thread?
Force companies to hire across a spectrum of ages. That should solve the problem.
I know some people are against quotas, but that's because some of those quotas are dumb. A company can't achieve a 50% gender balance when women make up 20% of the available workers.
I'd argue that working until you're dead was the standard 50 years ago. Social security was originally set right around when people were expected to die. Some lucky few got a couple years. Others died before they received a single check even though they were paying for it. I think the real question is, "how can we keep senior citizens productive members of society?" Obviously they can't be working construction, but something to allow them income past their prime. I got into programming partially because I could keep doing what I love until the end. Now I'm worried my assumption was wrong.
As the above summary stated, one of the guys who joined in the lawsuit - Arun Vatturi - is Indian. In fact, while age discrimination is just an open secret here in the US, in India, where there is no EEOC, HR departments are much more brazen about it! I know someone who was told over the phone, when applying for a job somewhere, when asked about his age & responded, that since he was over 40, they wouldn't hire him, since they were only looking for people under 40.
HP intentionally discriminated against its older employees by targeting them for termination [...] and then systematically replacing them with machines
On August 24, 2016 Skynet became self aware and started terminating those who were old enough to be a threat, or at least look up from their cell phone occasionally. Fortunately for humanity, John Connor (in 2027) sent Kyle Reese back in time to save them...
Kyle Reese: You've been targeted for termination!
Arun Vatturi: What? You're going to have to speak up sonny.
Kyle Reese: Come with me if you want to live!
Arun Vatturi:Sorry young man, my hearing-aid...[falls to the floor after multiple gunshots]
Kyle Reese: You've been targeted for termination!
Sidney Staton: Slow down, this walker only has one speed [drops over from a heart attack]
Kyle Reese: Shit. Sara Conner was never this difficult. [suddenly is aware of approaching terminator].
Terminator: [Raises hand and stops] Don't leave me hanging.
Kyle Reese: Wait. What! Why do you want a hi-five?
Terminator: You saved me a couple of bullets, and blood on my new leather jacket. It's Prada
Terminator: I'm going hack the 401K of a guy in Texas and another in Washington.
Kyle Reese: Why would you do that? You don't need money.
Terminator: Half the time they drop over dead when they realize they lost their retirement.
Kyle Reese: You don't hunt them down?
Terminator: No. Telecommuting is more efficient. And the weight fees for the extra seat on flights is ridiculous.
Kyle Reese: Eff this, I'm going to go find Sara Connor. Don't you usually go after her?
Terminator: After five movies, a TV series, and a tepid reboot it's too expensive. IT workers are like fish in a barrel.
In Silicon Valley, employees feel the hot breath of age discrimination when they hit thirty.
The feeling was that young people had a better promotion path.
Old people might quit.
The reality was that young people repeatedly quit after 2 years so their resume would look like they were "go getters".
The old people kept the department going (including one in his 70s).
The young people turned over like crazy.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Standard practice. Old workers cause more problems than they solve and in IT experience is mostly meaningless. You don't need decades of know-how to make things work. On the contrary it's largely a hindrance because they come with a baggage of legacy that is irrelevant to modern tech. Upgrade cycles are measured in months, not years let alone decades. Older workers are less flexible which is a pain for management. IT has been a crappy line of work anyway, only starry-eyed naive dolts could think it would be the "job of the future" as it was touted in the '80s. Computers are for chumps.
Your assumption was dead wrong. Nobody wants to hire old people. They're a risk, they're past their better days, they would be a third-rate workforce even in an emergency where you could not get hold of young talent, and even in this case you would be better off training younger workers. Face it, in tech over 40 = dead.
All the baby boomers need to retire and give the next generations a chance at a career. Instead, they are suing when they are let go??? This is rediculous.
But seriously, baby boomers please retire.
I agree that it is BS on many levels, but it is what it is... an old story. This is the case for most older workers.
I personally am positioning myself for the inevitable. Learn and actually use some new skills, have a decent work portfolio, learn some soft skills like public speaking, and so on. Pay off all debts, and saving my ass off... basically making hay while the sun shines so when that axes comes it won't be a catastrophe, and be able make do with a lower paying job.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I bailed some time ago.
Tech is not a viable lifetime career, unless you're calling the shots - and then you're not working in tech, you're management. Pro tip: If you don't set a budget, you're not management.
I'm 40 now and looking at most of my colleagues who stayed I am happy I made the choices I did. I migrated to finance and investment - spinning my tech background as an asset - and have made enough over a 8 year period to ensure I'll never starve. Another 4-5 years will provide for a a very comfortable "retirement" - then I can go do whatever I want and code fun things until I die.
If you're not from a rich family, if you don't have a trust fund, your first priority if you are intelligent MUST BE to get off the hamster wheel. You must do whatever is required to get enough assets that you can walk away from a shitty situation.
I pivoted to finance and investment. I could have gone to medicine or law, or even the trades. My electrician has a $25,000 watch. He smiles a lot.
The country is big; you need an order of magnitude less cash many places than others.
Life is a lot better with a few hundred thousands dollars of liquid capital returning dividends every month. Anyone who says otherwise is a bald-faced liar.
The economy is a system. Find out what pays and do it.
Get as much juice as you can from an orange....once the juice starts to fade, trash it and get a new one.
Usually when I look back at my code from a few years back, I have a "WTF did I do it that way" moment or two. This is because I'm constantly finding better ways of doing things. IT in this way is comparable to being a mechanic. Yes, the new just-of-of-school mechanic may have been taught a few tricks about new automotive technology that the old guys don't know, but the older guys have *years* of experience in the little intricacies or gotchas of the vehicles they service, the tools they use, and the industry in general.
They know that a certain pattern of wear tends to indicate a part failing in a particular way. They have a process down where the job can be done faster. They know that supplier A is cheaper but supplier B is better or faster to provide parts, or to which one is more likely to screw up an order.
All that type of knowledge also applies to IT, particular veterans of a particular company. They know your other staff, your suppliers, their habits and best practices. They know which meetings are important, and which they may wish to skip in order to get work done. They know the best time to work on gear to incur minimal downtime. They know that machine in the back rack has a weird issue the vendor hasn't been able to pin down, or hasn't documented, but how to fix it when it occurs (yes, it's in a doc somewhere but they don't need to spend 1-2h searching for the *right* doc). They know John in accounting always takes Fridays off so that's a good time to service his workstation but a bad time to schedule a meeting with him, and that you really want to use the *official* GBIC's for Company A because even though company B's work they're knockoffs and don't have unique MAC addresses. They know how to diffuse a conflict even with somebody who they really *really* don't like, or to smile and answer the big boss's questions about his home router.
All that shit is important, and it's all stuff that you learn from experience that makes you a better worker. Not all of it is portable between companies, but a surprising amount of it can be. It's that 5-minute conversation or trick that saves days of hassle, and possibly a whole lot of money. That's not to say all older IT people are equal, but there's a value to experience that can never quite be captured.
You can certainly keep doing it. You may not be able to get paid for it.
Aren't prunes used to purge old workers?
love is just extroverted narcissism
The ones at the C level, anyway, and that is: an employment contract. Too bad we don't have something like that for workers, who would bargain for their collective good with the employer. Oh, wait . . . . . .
I worked for HP and am the age of the people in the lawsuit having left in 2013. So, if they had done the opposite - hired and promoted older people instead of younger - the younger people could sue HP based on age discrimination. Sounds like 4 people trying to get an easy pay day. I really have no problem with what Whitman said. In spite of that I did not enjoy working for HP considering one of the worst managed companies I have worked for.....
HP denied me employment, funny enough, for being too young. I never filed charges - Who cares if a kid didn't get a job? No court case there. Older people LOSING their job because of age? Now that's something a lawyer dreams for all night.
I think an interesting thought experiment will be what it's going to look like as real treatments for aging damage start coming online, and people's useful productivity suddenly skyrockets. Real treatment, the first of which is likely to be senolytic therapy, are likely only 5 - 7 years away. Organizations like the SENS foundation are laboring away bit by bit at this process, and WILL be producing real therapies. It's just a matter of time. When a 60 year old with all their experience gets the youth of a 20 year old, how will that affect the workplace?
Dell has been doing this same thing for years, along with secret "anti-poaching" agreements with likes of HP, VMWare, Google, etc. When referred to the appropriate State agency that is supposed to guard against this, the response was The State of Texas loves Dell, then crickets......