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Microsoft Hopes To Hire More Coders With Autism (fastcompany.com)

Autistic people are methodical and detail-oriented, and a new Microsoft program is trying to hire more of them, according to Fast Company. Slashdot reader tedlistens writes: Vauhini Vara takes a look at the at the (difficult) efforts of Microsoft to recruit more autistic engineers and make a more neurodiverse workplace, through the lens of one of those coders. "The program, which began in May 2015, does away with the typical interview approach, instead inviting candidates to hang out on campus for two weeks and work on projects while being observed and casually meeting managers who might be interested in hiring them. Only at the end of this stage do more formal interviews take place.

"The goal is to create a situation that is better suited to autistic people's styles of communicating and thinking. Microsoft isn't the first to attempt something like this: The German software firm SAP, among a handful of others, have similar programs -- but Microsoft is the highest-profile company to have gone public with its efforts, and autistic adults are hoping it will spark a broader movement."

One autistic coder says they make better employees because "You don't have to tell someone not to go home early. They'll just stay." But there's also a push to bring different analytical and creative approaches into Microsoft's company culture. The article ultimately asks the question, "Could the third-largest corporation in the world make the case that hiring and employing autistic people, with all their social and intellectual quirks, was good, not bad, for business?"

27 of 226 comments (clear)

  1. So, employees they can abuse via overwork by HBI · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And, people who will worry about the "how" instead of the "why". Perfect for Microsoft, based on their past history.

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    1. Re:So, employees they can abuse via overwork by Kobun · · Score: 2

      I feel like this is a good thing overall. But it's especially good compared to letting the abusive H1B Indentured Servant program continue.

    2. Re:So, employees they can abuse via overwork by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      but this really seems over the top to me.

      Seems perfectly normal to me. Lots of companies use an approach that's very similar including hiring on temporary contracts before getting a permanent one. This doesn't seem much of a stretch from that. I got my current job by working as a temp with 4 other people for 60 days with a very crappy up front interview. At the end of the 60 days I got a formal full-time offer, the other's were shown the door.

  2. Spectrum... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I suspect that most coders fall somewhere on the spectrum anyway. Are they specifically looking for the rocking back and forth level of autism? The "awkward, can't look you in the eye, bad grooming"? Or the "I'm always right and get insanely defensive" (also includes defense extremists who have OVERLY strong political views)?

    1. Re:Spectrum... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Are they specifically looking for the rocking back and forth level of autism?

      The "rocking" is often an indicator of neglect, often as a result of late diagnosis. An autistic child needs treatment, stimulation, and education. They should not be left in the corner to rock back and forth.

      The "awkward, can't look you in the eye, bad grooming"? Or the "I'm always right and get insanely defensive"s?

      Training and education can help here too. "Normals" learn social skills indirectly by observing those around them. Autistic people often need explicit rules and checklists: Greet people in the hallway. Smile and look people in the eye. No political discussions at work. Etc.

    2. Re:Spectrum... by MatiasKiviniemi · · Score: 2

      Yes and further they are in the spectrum, the more problems they usually have with being able to communicate at sufficient level. For an inhouse western coder the ability to clearly communicate why something matters is as important as pure coding ability. You need to be in meetings with business owners, marketing, designers and deliver your expertise in way that is understandable to people with no coding experience. If it's OK that someone drops you a spec and you start hammering away, they can ship it to India.

    3. Re:Spectrum... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And if you can't look people in the eye, look at the bridge of their nose. They will likely never know.

      Learned off the telly from an Asperger's kid who wrote a book on his experiences.

      Works well, to the point that it ultimately trains you to be much more comfortable looking them in the eye. At least it helped me; I'm probably a 'normal', though at times in my youth, had diagnosis been more common, some of my repetitive behaviours and lack of non-verbal communication ability might have been put down to Asperger's rather than what I now think are the causes -- wildly varying tenency to shyness and very definite OCD.

    4. Re: Spectrum... by undefinedreference · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That was my first thought as well. All the best developers I've ever worked with were quite socially awkward, most probably somewhere on the spectrum. The best I ever hired was absolutely awful in the interview and nobody else could see what I saw in him.

      High-functioning autistics succeeding in tech careers have resulted in what some have described as an "epidemic" of ASDs among children in Silicon Valley. One of the problems is that high-functioning autistics still seldom move up into management (even if they want to), which keeps companies from hiring lower-functioning people with strong skills.

      At the very least, it's good to see some companies looking at working on diversity on this front. Too bad it will probably take decades to catch on in smaller companies where they'd likely be far more comfortable.

    5. Re:Spectrum... by morethanapapercert · · Score: 5, Informative
      You have no idea what you're talking about. Worse yet, you aren't even aware of just how poor your knowledge of the subject really is.

      Let me establish my credentials before I attempt to educate you.*

      I am on the autistic spectrum myself (Asperger's), I worked for several years as a Big Brother, Personal support Worker and in-class Educational Assistant specializing in autistic and behavioural modification programs. I have two sons both on the spectrum and one foster son with a learning disability that isn't autistic, but shares many symptoms of spectrum disorders. As a result, I have literally decades of experience working with autism, as well as the medical and educational systems doing what can be done for children and youths on the spectrum.

      1) ALL kids pick their nose at some point and virtually all adults do as well. All we really teach kids is to a) do it privately if possible and b) not to eat what they extract. Parents of autistic kids face the challenge that the child won't stop doing it whenever they feel the need unless you can give them a sensible reason why. Telling them it's rude, disgusting or whatever won't work. Nor will "because I said so" But explanations about how mucus contains a lot of bacteria and that nose picking spreads germs, risking making other people sick does work. (with one exception: If nose picking happens to be one of their "stimming" behaviours then you can't teach them to stop doing it. Instead you have to focus on managing the stress, boredom or external sensory input that is causing them to stim in reaction.)

      2) Autistic kids often love video games even more than the neurotypical kids because it allows them to focus on one thing. The rules are very clear and consistent. It also provides a constantly varying but still predictable level of stimulation. Forcing them to just go outside and seek out playmates the same way the other kids do is like tossing a non-swimmer into a pool and telling them to swim the way everyone else is doing. Autistic children just don't have the skill-set to do that. Most people have an inherent or latent ability to socialize. Autistic people don't. They have to learn social skills on a conscious level. Many autistic kids can learn to play with the other children, but it takes an adult to properly frame and explain the rules to the child and much practice before they are comfortable with it. There is usually a lengthy period of adult supervision and coaching required. In the same way, attending school or holding a job presents enormous challenges to the autistic. School can be a source of huge stress to an autistic child. The structure of set class times and seeing the same teacher(s) every day at the same times is good for the autistic. But being proactive at answering questions, working on joint projects, even simply navigating the more chaotic environment of the hallways and playground can be difficult, even overwhelming. Let's not forget that children are very very good at picking up on who is different in some way and can be very insensitive, even cruel when it comes to dealing with kids outside the norm. Autistic kids get picked on a LOT because they are different. Forcing them to go play unsupervised in the playground is setting them up to be the victim. And since autistic kids are not good at expressing themselves, they often bottle up their frustrations and anger at being bullied until they explode and go postal on a kid. And all too often, teachers don't see the bullying, but they DO see the inappropriate explosion of violence, so autistic kids get into trouble more often and tend to get more severe punishments if the staff are not properly trained on the challenges of teaching autistic kids. 3) You are correct that if one can play minecraft, one can work a cash register. But that is a very simplistic statement. It totally ignores all of the other soft skills a person needs in order to be a cashier. Soft skills which go far beyond making eye contact and saying "have a nice day" I might add. If o

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    6. Re:Spectrum... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      That's what I do. Either look at their nose or a spot just behind their head (but close enough to their head that my eyes appear directed at them). Looking someone directly in the eyes, though, results in ever increasing anxiety until I need to look away.

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    7. Re:Spectrum... by microTodd · · Score: 2

      An honest question, maybe you'll actually see my reply. My son is 8 and I've always suspected he might be on the spectrum, but all his teachers always assured me everything was fine so he didn't need any help. But everything you describe seems to fit him to a T.

      Do you have any web links to any resources or anything that go in to more detail on this, and what maybe I can do to help?

      Thanks in advance.

      --
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    8. Re:Spectrum... by morethanapapercert · · Score: 3, Informative
      There is a wealth of information out there to be had. It doesn't take much in the way of Google-fu to come up with the Autism Society of America or the National Autism Association Both of those are good places to start.

      For your specific situation; I have a few things to consider, bits of advice:

      1) It's called a spectrum for a reason. A child with autism may be only mildly affected or severely affected. Also; it's quite common for a child to have some traits or measured levels that qualify as autistic, while they may be normal or even above normal in other ways. Each kid is different. Thus, they may be considered severely affected on one axis, moderately so on another and totally fine on one or more others. This may explain why your sons teachers think he is fine. The attributes they see are within the normal range, whereas you see the bigger picture.

      2) Proper testing and diagnosis starts with your family physician or pediatrician. You need to set up a 1/2 hr appt with him or her and explain why you think your child has an issue. Your doctor will then hopefully refer you and your child to a specialist in developmental disorders

      2) Ultimately, autism is a diagnosis of exclusion. An average child goes through a year or two of testing before a diagnosis of autism is reached, because there are a large number of other learning disabilities or developmental disorders that share similar symptoms with autism. You need to prepare yourself to be patient during this phase.

      3) There is no medication, no regime of diet or therapy is that is a "cure" for autism. (indeed, a large segment of the autistic community argues there is no *need* for a cure, they are fine the way they are...) What exists are teaching and coaching programs to help the child consciously master the soft skills the neurotypical majority take for granted. There are medications which can help buffer the secondary symptoms (anxiety, depression, co-morbid sleep disorders etc) but for the most part it is the patient teaching that creates the change, not the meds.

      4) The teaching and coaching isn't just for the kids. Where I live, there is an excellent program (under the auspices of local community mental health groups) to teach the parents, and in some cases, the siblings how to understand and interact with the affected child. If such a program exists in your area, I highly recommend looking into it for your whole family.

      5) You will constantly encounter people who have formed opinions about autistic kids based on incomplete or outdated information. The withdrawn rocking child is the archetypical face of autism, but one that only describes the most severely affected. (and, as described elsewhere in this thread, a symptom of an autistic kid who is overwhelmed, hasn't been given the mental tools to cope with excessive stimuli.) It is possible that your child's teacher has the assumption that all autistic kids are that withdrawn and unsocial archetype. And let us not forget what the other gentleman (ourlovecanlastforeve 795111) above blasted. There are many many people who think the misbehaviours, weird obsessions and compulsions are the product of bad parenting and they are quick to judge you accordingly.

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  3. Exploited? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One autistic coder says they make better employees because "You don't have to tell someone not to go home early. They'll just stay."

    Ah, it makes it easier to exploit employees.

    And now, businesses are going to start putting in their requirements "diagnosed autism" in their job descriptions. It's like when MS started asking those brain teasers and every business started doing it.

    I'm glad that business is starting to see non-normal behavior as being a reason for instant disqualification, but I see this going to extremes.

  4. That Explaines A Lot. by zenlessyank · · Score: 2, Funny

    You have to be autistic to like Windows 10. Mystery Explained.

    1. Re:That Explaines A Lot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      You have to be autistic to like Windows 10. Mystery Explained.

      More like retarded.

  5. Good by penguinoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A flawed hiring strategy was passing over better candidates in favor of people with more social skills, because bigoted and incompetent hiring managers were failing at their jobs by favoring people they like over better-qualified candidates. "Being liked by the sort of people put in charge of hiring" shouldn't be a job qualification.

    (although I'm rather suspicious of this "hang out on campus for two weeks and work on projects" approach, at least if it is not paid)

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  6. Re:There's a good idea with bad consequences by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    You seem to be describing sociopaths, not autistic people.

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  7. Devil is in the details by ErichTheRed · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For whatever reasons they're doing this, it seems like a good idea. I'm in the systems integration world, so I don't write software per se. However, I do a lot of "glue scripting" and automation work, and work with lots of developers getting their creations to function in the real world. Our chosen field of work is _definitely_ suited for autism spectrum folks...doing it right requires intense focus and literal thinking. For Microsoft, it seems like they would win on a couple fronts...they get kudos for hiring the disabled [1] and they get a workforce who is happy to work untold hours that "normals" wouldn't be able to.

    It does sound like a plan hatched by some evil HR VP though. A bunch of normal execs tour the back buildings at Microsoft, see the more autistic of the bunch basically living in their offices, and conclude that hiring more of these will keep productivity high. It could definitely devolve into a sweatshop quickly. I wouldn't classify myself as ASD, but I'm definitely introverted. i can deal with normal people, but don't like to, as in it doesn't give me pleasure but I'll avoid it if given the choice. Fortunately I've found workplaces that let me have a healthy mix of socialization and independent work. I wouldn't thrive in a startup "brogrammer" environment as an example. If Microsoft encourages an adaptive workplace, that's a good thing in my mind. All companies need a healthy mix of cocaine-fueled salesmen and caffeine-fueled worker bees. Giving those worker bees what they need to be productive (offices, privacy, etc) is key.

    [1] Yes, I'm aware that ASD being classified as a disability is very controversial. But as the number of technical jobs dry up in the First World, I can see it becoming a fully protected disability. When the entire employed world is extroverted project managers and executives, us introverts are going to be in for a world of pain.

  8. It's still discrimination by mark-t · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Favoring a particular demographic because they have a particular disability is still discrimination. If it's against the law to discriminate against someone because of a disability, it should not matter whether they actually have that disability or not.... one should not be using said disability as a basis for discrimination, period.

    1. Re:It's still discrimination by raftpeople · · Score: 3, Funny

      The worst is the NBA, they target all of those tall people. Discrimination at it's worst.

  9. Fine with me... by freeze128 · · Score: 2

    It's fine that Microsoft wants to start hiring more autistic programmers.... Just as long as they hire them from INSIDE the U.S.

    1. Re:Fine with me... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      It's fine that Microsoft wants to start hiring more autistic programmers.... Just as long as they hire them from INSIDE the U.S.

      55% of Microsoft's sales are international. Global companies grow globally. Get over it.

  10. A wise change of strategy by Stormwatch · · Score: 4, Funny

    Judging by Windows 10, it seems the idea of hiring coders with Down syndrome didn't work too well.

  11. No prima donna programmers allowed... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As someone who looked liked the poster child for mongolism (large head and slow learner), misdiagnosed as mentally retarded due to an undiagnosed hearing lost in kindergarten, and spent eight years in Special Ed classes, I can tell you exactly what quality Microsoft is looking for. It's the same quality that my Special Ed teachers prized the most when I was in class: a well-behaved idiot.

  12. I would like this for "neuro-typical" people too by davidwr · · Score: 2

    I would love to "try out" new employers for a couple of weeks before committing, without having to through a more formal temp-to-hire or contract-to-hire arrangement.

    Granted, this probably won't work for most people who already have jobs, but it would be very good for new-college hires, independent contractors looking to get back into W2 work, and people who are unemployed or who have been told they will be laid off and whose employers are willing to let them take vacation or go on unpaid leave. It might work for some professionals who are looking for a career change and who have vacation to burn.

    Now for the nitty gritty:

    I would expect to be paid and a weekly cash stipend of at least minimum wage plus enough to cover taxes for that period of time. If I was hired on permanently, I would expect to be paid my full salary retroactively. If I was out of the area, I would expect to be given per-diem to cover hotel, transportation, and food expenses during that time. If the work I did during that two weeks was something that would have cost the company more than it was paying me (including the per-diem costs) if it were done by an employee or outside contractor, I would expect to be paid accordingly. In other words, if they were using the time to get to know me and for me to get to know them, then minimum wage + expenses and taxes is fine, but if they were using it as a source of real labor, then I would expect to be paid real-labor wages.

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  13. Re:Wait! Don't tell them... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

    As someone who has high functioning Autism, let me just say that social cues are hard for us. People on the autism spectrum do very well in absolutes. Black and white. Social rules aren't black and white. They're a confusing mass of grey. The same action that is perfectly valid in one situation is horribly wrong in another, very similar situation. Over the years, I've gotten good at faking neurotypical (not on the autism spectrum), but it can be tiring and I can miss cues. Think of it as if everyone runs Social Rules natively but those of us on the spectrum need to emulate it. Our emulators are much slower and don't handle every instance. So they can drain our system resources (leaving us needing to decompress) or crash entirely (letting us say/do something that is inappropriate).

    As far as your co-worker goes, I'd be direct with him. Not rude, mind you, but honest. Don't go for subtle (he won't pick up on that at all) but try to also not act like he's a small child (people with high functioning Autism can be very intelligent). Say something like: "Hey, this isn't a good time right now. I've got a ton of work to do. Let's talk about this later when we're both free."

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  14. Re:OH fucking whaaaaa by morethanapapercert · · Score: 3, Informative
    Once again I am seeing a prejudicial and negative opinion in a member of the public based on incomplete and/or outdated information. It is true that Asperger Syndrome as a separate diagnosis was removed from the DSM-V in 2013. However, what happened wasn't removing the condition completely as being invalid. Rather; it got lumped in with the autistic spectrum. Current thinking is that Asperger's is a form of high functioning autism distinguished from other forms by the child having normal or above average language skills. At one time, the condition wasn't even heard of. It was only after many years of study by mental health professionals around the world that Dr Hans Asperger's observations and classification was accepted and added to the DSM. Merging it with autism just represents the current level of refinement in classification and understanding of the disorder. Since we know nothing of the root causes of autistic spectrum symptoms, it is quite possible that the category will get split up into new labels as we learn more. (maybe, as an example, one type of autism is found to be caused by a neurochemical imbalance while another is caused by functional changes in the neuron structures in the cognitive centres and yet another caused by changes in structure of the hindbrain.)

    Your post also reflects a common misunderstanding of the importance and proper use of the DSM. The DSM is first a method of classifying mental disorders. In this it resembles taxonomy. And as with taxonomy, having a species move from one genus or family to another doesn't mean that species doesn't exist, having a described animal move from being a distinct species to being considered a sub-species of another, better understood species doesn't invalidate the observations of the people who first described that sub-species. From there; it then acts kind of like a field guide for mental disorders for the mental health professional working in the field. The DSM is not meant to be exhaustive and it can only be as definitive as current understanding allows. This common misunderstanding tends to create a lot of hardship for people dealing with mental disorders or learning disabilities because it is often assumed by teachers, insurance companies, friends and family that if it isn't in the DSM, it isn't real.

    Finally; for what it's worth, the DSM isn't the only guide for professionals in defining a patients mental health issues. There is also the International Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems. (the ICD) And Asperger Syndrome is still listed separately there.

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