Slashdot Mirror
Ubuntu 16.04 Available in Latest Insider Update To Windows 10 (omgubuntu.co.uk)
The latest Windows 10 Insider preview -- build 14936 -- features Ubuntu 16.04 LTS. When a user enables the 'Bash on Ubuntu on Windows' feature for the first time, OMGUbuntu reports, Windows 10 now installs an Ubuntu 16.04 (Xenial Xerus) image instead of Ubuntu 14.04 (Trusty Tahr). From the report: The updated version of Ubuntu in the WSL only affects new instances, i.e., those created by running lxrun.exe /install or on the very first run of the bash.exe setup. It is possible to upgrade WSL instances from Ubuntu 14.04 to Ubuntu 16.04 manually by running the do-release-upgrade command. Other changes in the WSL in Build 14936 include support for chroot system call, epoll support for /dev/null and the ability for bash -c to redirect to a file.
The horse can ride man ! .
Ubuntu in Windows 10.... ugh
Don't want.
I think this is the "embrace" stage...
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
This now makes me wonder what reason there could be to run Ubuntu on Windows instead of Windows on Linux. For the few pieces of software like CAD (or games) I can understand, but then I can't think of a use for those professionals to use Linux in a virtual machine.
So, what scenario would fit best to use Linux on Windows instead of Windows on Linux for the professional? (I myself use Proxmox as a desktop with severeal machines for testing on it)
home
*several
Proofread too quick. Need edit option.
home
Because I want to use grep. Because I want to run scripts and write them in Bash. Because I like the find command. Because...
You get the idea. I run OS X^H^H^HmacOS as my main operating system and use the shell frequently. I used Red Hat as my desk top in the late 90s and early 2000s. I like the idea that my knowledge and familiarity is portable across all the environments I may come across.
Don't worry, that build is not available anyway. Since 14915, all Windows 10 Insider Preview does is downloading updates over and over, rebooting for several hours long installation that requires you to log in in the middle then rolls back the update for another several hours. Judging by the Feedback Hub, same happens to many or possibly most people on insider builds. And working versions are expired since Oct 1st.
I for one don't let Windows anywhere outside a VM but those who made the mistake of using Win10 Preview for some real use are pretty fucked.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
I also use Git for storing documents. If ransomware comes a-knocking and trashes my files, a reinstall, reload of apps, and a git clone gets all my data back. Having a native command line for that, as well as for using a deduplicating backup program like borg backup, attic, or others, is quite nice to have.
It's not cygwin-like. Cygwin tries to translate Unix calls to Windows calls, and provides a DLL to link your source code against. WSL actually provides an ELF loader and handles Linux system calls; it runs Linux programs the way a Linux kernel would, albeit the kernel is more of an academic project written from scratch (e.g. FreeBSD or Minix implementing Linux-compatible system calls so as to straight run a Linux userland).
WSL is excellent for those of us in an actual Windows enterprise environment doing Linux system development or administration. It gives a real Unix-like environment with real tools, rather than Cygwin. In general, it's kind of clunky and unpolished; but it's better than Cygwin.
I'd like to see Microsoft release a Winbind-type service that connects (via TCP) to localhost and mediates between the Winbind socket and the local authentication daemon. Otherwise you have to join your computer *and* the Bash shell on your computer to the domain. Would also like to see them implement Docker under WSL tbh.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
I also use Git for storing documents.
And yet git is poor for binaries.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
As an engineer, many places I have worked have IT departments which are run for the benefit of non-techies and completely out-of-touch with engineering. These companies simply do not understand the engineers' desires whatsoever. Windows is forced upon the engineers (80% of the white collar workforce) because it's simpler to maintain a single OS, and the remaining 20% wants windows. I am not saying that every engineer agrees with me. However, only one side of the debate is heard at most companies: those who want Windows.
Seems to me you would just be better off running Linux in a virtual machine. I've tried this Linux on Windows stuff, and there was quite a bit of basic stuff that didn't work. It's definitely not production ready yet. Even if it was production ready, what would this provide that running a virtual machine would not provide?
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
They're making all of this GPL code available on a commercial basis. I believe that this makes them responsible for making a source repository available. (been a while since I (re) read the pertinent sections of the GPL.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Does this mean we now have Windows 10 w/ systemd?
Because I want to use grep. Because I want to run scripts and write them in Bash. Because I like the find command. Because... You get the idea. I run OS X^H^H^HmacOS as my main operating system and use the shell frequently. I used Red Hat as my desk top in the late 90s and early 2000s. I like the idea that my knowledge and familiarity is portable across all the environments I may come across.
Most of those individual commands have been available in Windoze for a long time. Try installing UnxUtils or GnuWin32 to get grep and other *Nix commands in Windows.
Not really. Git doesn't treat binaries any different from text. In fact, in an uncompressed repo, both are stored entirely as a whole - unlike RCS/CVS/SVN, each version is not stored as a diff of another version (either store the latest and maintain diffs of previous versions, or store the initial and maintain diffs going forward. The data model of Git stores everything as-is.
Later versions of git stored the repository as a giant tarball which means text docs have a compressability advantage
"...WSL actually provides an ELF loader and handles Linux system calls; it runs Linux programs the way a Linux kernel would..."
Lots of people seem to miss this point. And a huge benefit of this is that performance is excellent. Running my ffmpeg bash scripts for x264 encoding/conversion I get identical speed in Ubuntu on Windows as I get on Debian Stretch on the same hardware. And it's great to be able to run screen or tmux locally, not just on a remote machine I ssh'd into. This is much better than using putty or running a VM.
I boot Windows 10 most days because my Steam games mostly don't run on Steam for Linux and gaming under Wine is just too unreliable in many cases. If I don't have to reboot to accomplish some regular tasks than that's a bonus for me.
Gee, doesn't it make MORE sense to run Windows in Linux (VirtualBox, Proxmox, KVM). Safer, easier to audit network activity. It's amazing how people don't seem to see the light, even when the potion is on the table in front of them saying "drink me" AND they know people who have already tasted the potion and haven't died, or gotten sick.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
Better performance, lower overheads, better integration between Windows and Ubuntu etc.
Anyone else in this position? What are you trying?
I'm running Ubuntu under Windows 10, using the 'Bash on Ubuntu on Windows' feature. That way I can have Windows monitor the Linux environment and intervene in case of problems. It gives me the best of both worlds, Windows robustness and stability and access to the myriad of applications that are only available for Linux.
Which is why it is poor for storing binaries, especially binaries that change often. You get a whole binary for a 1-bit change.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
I thought since Debian included systemd, so would LMDE? Thanks for the ideas, will definitely check it out!
Twinstiq, game news
That's cool, I'm glad it works for you. I don't have a Windows license or use any Windows specific apps, but I'm not even sure if some of the apps I use are available in that environment, such as Rosegarden.
Also I'm not too familiar with Windows past 2000, I probably wouldn't know where to begin on what to enable/disable to have a usable desktop without nags, and I'm not a fan of updating each driver/app separately (or even installing drivers, which I don't have to do in Linux). I mentioned that I love apt because I like being able to update everything all at once, knowing that no update will conflict with another and knowing everything has been tested in that configuration together.
I also really don't like how certain updates reset certain settings to default, I don't want my settings to be randomy changed.
I don't think Windows is an option for me, it would be hard for me to abandon the conveniences of my current desktop.
Twinstiq, game news
Curious about one thing - what is rms and FSF's official position on systemd?
Windows robustness and stability
Fuck me, you ARE new here.
The question is especially interesting in the long term.
Will this be just a limited trick to please the developers that like usual console tools on Ubuntu. ?
Or will this be someday included by default on Windows with enough support to allow to run Linux applications ?
Hmm. LMDE is not frequently updated, and as it is based on Debian and not Devuan would probably eventually migrate to systemd automatically by default, I'd probably be better sticking with Mint 17.3 LTS until 2019...
Twinstiq, game news
My belief is that the 99% use case of this is for running docker images.
Before this you could run docker on windows, but you had to create a "bizarre" tiny linux distro VM (100mb or so storage), and the docker on windows launcher would leverage that to provision and run the docker images. You had to dedicate ram to that VM to run your docker pool.
With this you can run docker images "natively", without a separate VM memory space, and due to the elf loader support they actually are running on windows itself.
I do not see this as a good alternative to traditional VMs.
A re-paste of a comment I posted as a reply:
My belief is that the 99% use case of this is for running docker images.
Before this you could run docker on windows, but you had to create a "bizarre" tiny linux distro VM (100mb or so storage), and the docker on windows launcher would leverage that to provision and run the docker images. You had to dedicate ram to that VM to run your docker pool.
With this you can run docker images "natively", without a separate VM memory space, and due to the elf loader support they actually are running on windows itself.
I do not see this as a good alternative to traditional VMs.
It gives me the best of both worlds, Windows robustness and stability and access to the myriad of applications that are only available for Linux.
Whoosh?
... Systemd Edition?
It gives me the best of both worlds, Windows robustness and stability and access to the myriad of applications that are only available for Linux.
Whoosh?
Actually a double Whoosh. One statement poking fun at Windows and another statement poking fun at Linux.
Can anyone tell me if this will allow NFS mounts? I really hate samba + windows and Unix services is only available for enterprise versions.
Where is Microsoft's source repository? They're making all of this GPL code available on a commercial basis. I believe that this makes them responsible for making a source repository available. (been a while since I (re) read the pertinent sections of the GPL.
They don't need one. They are not modifying these tools so you can go to Ubuntu's repository. If you asked MS for the source they could fulfill their GPL obligation by referring you to Ubuntu's.
Note that they do not use the Linux kernel. They have alternative code for providing the necessary Linux APIs for the tools.
I'd figure everyone would be jumping for joy because there's no systemd in this.
And Bill Gates?
Me? No, I focus on what I'm doing, not what others are trying to do, unless they specifically ask for my help/input
Twinstiq, game news
I was excited about this at first but then after spending a day or two getting my environment the way I like it, the Windows part crashes and I have to re-install everything. So now I'm back to Cygwin and VMs, neither of which ever give me any trouble. Maybe I'll try it again in a few years when they work out the bugs.
Could something like ReactOS be ported on a Linux kernel in userland to run win32 software?
http://saveie6.com/
"And that's whose fault again?"
It's the fault of condescending pricks. Like you for instance.
ttfn.
On a 2GB RAM / 32 GB storage cheap Windows laptop, I have found that Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL) works fine and I would prefer it to full emulation given the limited amount of RAM available. For 150GBP, I have got a 1kg "disposable" notebook with a small form factor, decent keyboard and 10hrs battery life. I used to have a chromebook for that purpose, but I had to flash its firmware and hardware support wasn't perfect.
As a C++ development environment, you get the usual console tools (vim, git, cmake, gdb, ecc...), but g++ is quite old (4.8) which basically means C++11. Installing clang-3.8 from the repository worked, but I personally had dependency problems when I tried to install libc++. Good C++14 language support with poor C++11 standard library support works fine for me, so I didn't bother to try to solve the issue.
A problem I did not expect is the inability to access removable MicroSD from WSL, so you should be aware of that.
I am looking forward for when Ubuntu 16.04 will be available outside the insider program, so I can get an hassle-free, modern C++14 environment out of the box.
So does ping even work now? This is why I went back to Windows 7 after a drive failure.
liberare massarum ex ignorantia, clausa descendit molestie.
That sounds weird - a crash shouldn't do that?
Yeah, it was this weird thing where the console wouldn't launch anymore and I couldn't find any recommendation other than to remove the app and reinstall it - which worked by the way, but all my customization went bye-bye. It had something to do with me trying to get the scrollback buffer working proper. Anyway, like I said, too much effort for me to go through again. Maybe in a couple years.
Debian includes systemd if you want it to. If you don't want to use systemd install some other init system.
Strangely, Devuan, that was supposed to give people "init freedom" doesn't support systemd.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
"Whatever floats your boat"?
Why would you expect them to have an "official position". It's free software. Use it if you want, don't use it if you don't want to.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Running my ffmpeg bash scripts for x264 encoding/conversion I get identical speed in Ubuntu on Windows as I get on Debian Stretch on the same hardware.
Duh. Running a task that only uses CPU gets the same speed. Frankly, if you don't get the same speed from a VM your VM software is broken. Only I/O bound tasks should show any reduction in speed from running in a VM.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Thanks, that's very informative... Makes me wonder why all the hubris over forking Debian then if you can just install some other init... I guess because some packages are starting to depend on it? Anyway, I'll try this, thanks for the idea.
Twinstiq, game news
Wrong. IO-bound tasks are slow in VM because IO requires a kernel call. So does task switching, memory mapping (mmap(), brk()), getting the time, getting process information, changing memory protections, advising on memory use (madvise()), sleeping, interprocess communication (pipes), creating shared memory, and several other things. Modern VMs are faster because they eliminate the large amount of work required to make a kernel call.
CPU-bound tasks can lose clock cycles to task switching and context switches. Task switching destroys CPU cache, causing major performance hits on certain types of applications, notably media-encoding applications; additional task switching by the host OS exacerbates this.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
Waste of memory, CPU, and system stability. Cygwin suffices; WSL suffices better.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
Makes me wonder why all the hubris over forking Debian then if you can just install some other init... I guess because some packages are starting to depend on it?
As far as I know no packages in Debian that are not part of systemd depend on systemd being the init system. Some packages do depend on systemd being installed for various complicated reasons.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Wrong. IO-bound tasks are slow in VM because IO requires a kernel call. So does task switching, memory mapping (mmap(), brk()), getting the time, getting process information, changing memory protections, advising on memory use (madvise()), sleeping, interprocess communication (pipes), creating shared memory, and several other things.
So, like I said, a mostly cpu bound task like ffmpeg isn't going to see much difference.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
CPU-bound tasks can lose clock cycles to task switching and context switches. Task switching destroys CPU cache, causing major performance hits on certain types of applications, notably media-encoding applications; additional task switching by the host OS exacerbates this.
So a CPU-bound task like ffmpeg--that's going through a large span of memory and thus is sensitive to excessive cache flushes--is going to see a huge difference, depending on how much the hypervisor cooperates with the guest OS for task scheduling.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
Curious about one thing - what is rms and FSF's official position on systemd?
It's free software, it meets their definition and offers users what they define as the essential freedoms so they're just fine with it. Is there something about systemd that would make you think they would have a different position?