Samsung Could Face Second Recall As US Probes Burnt Phone (bloomberg.com)

The Federal Aviation Administration and the Consumer Product Safety Commission are investigating Wednesday's incident, when a passenger's phone emitted smoke on a Southwest Airlines plane readying for departure from Louisville, Kentucky. Bloomberg reports: "If it's the fixed phone and it started to smoke in his pocket, I'm going to guess there'll be another recall," said Pamela Gilbert, a former executive director of the consumer agency. "That just doesn't sound right." Samsung has been engulfed in crisis since the Note 7 smartphones began to burst into flames just days after hitting the market in August. The Suwon, South Korea-based company announced last month that it would replace all 2.5 million phones sold globally at that point. Samsung said it had uncovered the cause of the battery fires and that it was certain new phones wouldn't have the same flaws. The first indications of the existing recall's financial impact could be seen Friday with the company's release of earnings that rose at the slowest pace in five quarters. Operating income increased just 5.5 percent to 7.8 trillion won ($7 billion) in the three months ended Sept. 30.

Comments

Where are the shills now?

[HBI]

I seem to remember a whole bunch of sock puppets talking about how this was all overblown the first time around.

Re:Where are the shills now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi Apple fanboi!

Re:Where are the shills now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing Slashdot's color are green...

Re:Where are the shills now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shills? Do you think Samsung recruits shills or "internet trolls" and send them into battle in the discussion forums, when people use common sense and logic instead of inflating an issue of 40-50 bad batteries out of millions shipped? And yeah, this is just a case of -1- battery here, what possible conclusion could you draw from it? What fantasy world do you live in exactly?

Re:Where are the shills now?

[macs4all]

Hi Apple fanboi!

Hello back, Anonymous COWARD!

Re:Where are the shills now?

[HBI]

The world where consumer products carried onto public transport shouldn't burst into flames. If they have failure modes where this happens, it shouldn't be a consumer product, or shouldn't be carried onto public transport. Pick one.

What kind of world do you live in where this is ok?

Re:Where are the shills now?

[tripleevenfall]

Doesn't the fact that the phone which started smoking was a replacement phone raise any eyebrows on Slashdot? Like maybe they tried and failed, and the issue still hasn't been fixed?

Sure, most phones are safe, I'm typing this on a Note 7 now, it's just that a fe

Re: Where are the shills now?

[ArylAkamov]

Hello macs4all, if that is indeed your real name.

Re: Where are the shills now?

[macs4all]

Hello macs4all, if that is indeed your real name.

It's my real USERNAME. In fact, I have only posted as AC a few times (like less than 5) (and that because I was too lazy to login) since I have been a Slashdot User starting in 2003 or '04. I have NEVER used AC as a way to avoid Karmic "punishment", and I have the Karma scars to prove it!

Re: Where are the shills now?

[Anonymous Coward]

It will raise eyebrows if several more verified Note 7 replacements follow suit, that is to say, enough to be greater than the expected failure rate of any given li-ion batteries. This is one data point so it's not useful.

All li-ion batteries have this issue but the probability is so low that it's negligible for any one individual to worry about it. If a real issue occurs (such as with the initial Samsung SDI batteries) where a design/manufacturering flaw increases the failure rate considerably higher than expected, then it's an issue.

The fact a replacement Note 7 caught fire made news because the previous issue already had the media and public's attention so it was blasted everywhere. Had the previous recall incident not occurred, this instance would garner little attention.

Google search for other major phones catching fire, you'll find a lot of video evidence that didn't make to your local news troth.

Re: Where are the shills now?

[Anonymous Coward]

We see where the smug fucks are. Right at the top comment.

You're an Applephone fan, right?

Re: Where are the shills now?

[Anonymous Coward]

BFD. Wanna peanut?

A recall from just a single occurrence?

[JoeyRox]

I understand how sensitive authorities will be to any battery issue on the Note 7 post-recall, but nearly every Li-Ion phone model has had these kinds of thermal runaway events, including the iPhone. It's premature to start talking about a second recall before the investigation on the Southwest Airlines event has even started in earnest.

Re:A recall from just a single occurrence?

[Anubis IV]

While it's true that one-in-a-million thermal runaway events can happen to pretty much every phone, consider your choices:
1) Samsung fixed the issue and had the unfortunate luck of a one-in-a-million thermal runaway in the weeks immediately following the fix.

2) Samsung failed to (fully) fix the issue, allowing the FAR more likely issue they've been dealing with for months to immediately pick right back up where it left off before the recall/people stopped using the devices.

Smart money is on the latter, but you're quite correct that an investigation is absolutely necessary and that a single incident does not provide us with enough information to say anything with certainty. While I may bet on the latter, it wouldn't come as a shock if it ended up being an unfortunate, unlikely, ill-timed coincidence for Samsung. The world is a big place, and those sorts of coincidences do happen sometimes.

Re:A recall from just a single occurrence?

[macs4all]

I understand how sensitive authorities will be to any battery issue on the Note 7 post-recall, but nearly every Li-Ion phone model has had these kinds of thermal runaway events, including the iPhone. It's premature to start talking about a second recall before the investigation on the Southwest Airlines event has even started in earnest.

To be sure, nearly everything with a Li-ion/Li-Po battery has had one instance of catastrophic battery failure; but is the close-clustering of battery events in one make and model that, like the same thing with the cheap hoverboards, has the authoriTIES (Cartman voice) (understandably) all up in arms.

Re:A recall from just a single occurrence?

[Chris Mattern]

or
3) This is a phone with the original fault, unfixed. They haven't ruled that out yet. There are going to be thousands, if not millions of phones with the original fault unfixed out there for years. People don't always turn things in on a recall.

Re:A recall from just a single occurrence?

[Anubis IV]

3) This is a phone with the original fault, unfixed. They haven't ruled that out yet.

From The Verge article on the incident:

More worrisome is the fact that the phone in question was a replacement Galaxy Note 7, one that was deemed to be safe by Samsung. The Verge spoke to Brian Green, owner of the Note 7, on the phone earlier today and he confirmed that he had picked up the new phone at an AT&T store on September 21st. A photograph of the box shows the black square symbol that indicates a replacement Note 7 and Green said it had a green battery icon.

[...]

Running the phone's IMEI (blurred for privacy reasons) through Samsung's recall eligibility checker returns a "Great News!" message saying that Green's Galaxy Note 7 is not affected by the recall.

Unless some fraud took place (either someone swapping an original device into his new box or the guy trying to pass off an original device as a new one for some twisted reason), we can say that it's NOT an original device.

Re:A recall from just a single occurrence?

[ColdWetDog]

How many counterfeit 'safe' phones do you think are out there? Easy scam.

1. Get the bad phone
2. Slap on Green Dot
3. Resell / replace phone
4. Profit!

Re:A recall from just a single occurrence?

[MachineShedFred]

And somehow hack the firmware through an undisclosed vulnerability so it shows the green battery icon, denoting that it is a post-recall phone?

Yeah, 'easy scam' alright.

Re:A recall from just a single occurrence?

[Chris453]

Is there evidence that it ever showed a green battery icon? He could be lying to place the blame on someone else.

Re:A recall from just a single occurrence?

[Anubis IV]

There's admittedly no evidence he ever saw the green battery icon, but there is evidence that this is a newer phone. After all, he provided pictures of the box, which had the correct markings to indicate it was a newer model; he provided his phone's IMEI number, which Samsung's site verified was for a newer model; and he claimed to have purchased it brand new through an authorized AT&T store, which would cause his whole story to fall apart if it was untrue, since it's an easily verified claim.

We can't rule out the notion that he's engaging in some sort of fraud, but the likelihood of it is slim at best.

Re:A recall from just a single occurrence?

[Anonymous Coward]

The IMEI number on the box shows its a good one. Does the IMEI number actually match the phone's?
    Is it even possible to tell with it burnt to a crisp?

Even at best its the only example, soo without more issues I don't see the need for further recalls.

Re: A recall from just a single occurrence?

[Anonymous Coward]

Scammer owns an original Note 7 that catches fire. Gets access to a new Note 7 box, takes photos of box and claims the original Note 7 is this one.

Non removable battery FTW

[burtosis]

I know it helps with water resistance ease of manufacturing, but when will phone manufacturers reconsider the whole non removable battery issue? Apple was a leading "innovator" of this, now it's being adopted industry wide and we are seeing losses exceeding a billion dollars of valuation. A user removable battery would streamline much of a recall process while adding safety to boot.

Now if only a lack of a USB card and headphone jack would start fires we may see some actual positive changes.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Aaden42]

As a user, I'd much prefer the water proofing, smaller overall size / greater capacity, and other benefits that come from an integrated battery.

Sure, a removable battery might make this recall easier (assuming the flaw is solely in the battery & not in the phone). I'm really not interested in buying consumer devices that are designed with the idea of making it easier to replace the exploding battery though. Design & test the thing properly, and you won't have to do any recalls.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Joce640k]

As a user, I'd much prefer the water proofing, smaller overall size / greater capacity, and other benefits that come from an integrated battery.

Stop believing the Apple sales pitches. None of those things is incompatible with a removable battery.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[NatasRevol]

Says the guy not actually designing, making or selling phones.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Joce640k]

I own plenty of waterproof gadgets that have removable batteries.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

you understand that S5 was waterproof and still had removable battery, right?

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Aaden42]

It's common sense and physics. The additional plastic of the battery housing, the internal space in the phone to make a user-serviceable space inside, the exterior cover and latching mechanism to hold it on, etc. All of those things take up space and add weight. That space could be more lithium or a smaller, lighter phone.

You can convince me otherwise when you can demonstrate two designs (one with an integrated battery and one removable) that yield the same battery capacity and device size & weight using the same battery technology.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Jason Levine]

As a user, I'd prefer replaceable battery. It's not a phone, but my older son has a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 tablet. After a year and a half, it began having battery issues. It wouldn't charge at all - showing a charging screen but recycling as if we kept pulling the plug and plugging it back in. We tested other cords and it didn't work. I finally bought a battery online and paid someone to open the case (after I failed to be able to) and replace the battery. This fixed it for about 8 months, but his tablet started this up again. Still, replacing the battery should be as easy as buying a replacement online, popping the case open, putting the new battery in, and snapping the case back on.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[NatasRevol]

How does that qualify you to answer if that would make them smaller/greater capacity?

The answer is: Not at all. You are still wholly unqualified to make design decisions on waterproof vs battery size.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Thruen]

I see a lot of people saying they'd prefer a phone with a removable battery. Here's the thing: They exist, you have that option, everyone does and nobody takes it. Phones with removable batteries don't sell very well and that's why you don't see them advertised all over the place nor do you see manufacturers trying to pack in more features when it's not worth the effort for them. I know, everyone wants to believe the lack of removable batteries is so you'll be forced to replace your phone due to a dead battery instead of getting a new battery. I am going to tell you what my S/O who has sold this stuff for the last decade has told me repeatedly: They made a lot more selling extra batteries than they do selling replacement phones, there has been no notable increase in the rate at which people replace phones while we've made the move to non-removable batteries, and it's actually less common that people come in with complaints about their battery now than before as batteries now typically work well for as long as the average consumer uses their phone. It's also worth pointing out that, back when replaceable batteries were common, folks would often complain about the short lifespan of their batteries claiming they were being forced to buy replacements just to keep their phone on for a day at a time.

I know, I've been using the same phone for years, too. I could use a replaceable battery as mine is not holding a charge the way it used to. We are the minority, most folks don't suffer many ill effects from not being able to replace the battery in their phone. This situation is a fluke, and even after this you will only see a very small minority of folks talking about the need for replaceable batteries. The vast majority of consumers don't care about replaceable batteries and wouldn't really benefit from them.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Joce640k]

It's almost as if you believe that Apple just invented waterproofing.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[NatasRevol]

Nothing close to that.

But you believe that putting more stuff inside makes no impact at all to size/capacity.

So, you literally believe in physical impossibilities.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Joce640k]

Google "0.3mm O-ring" and get back to me, will you?

(0.3mm is what my 200m water-resistant watch uses to keep water out...)

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Joce640k]

My 200m water-resistant divers watch uses a 0.3mm gasket.

0.3mm.

0.3..

Get back to me when that number has sunk in.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Joce640k]

All you're really saying is that's not a selling point for most people.

ie. Ignorance is rife, film at 11.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a little problem with that... Your watch needs a new O-Ring every time you open it and replace the battery. Otherwise it's VERY likely that it will no longer be 200m water resistant.

Besides, in order to get away with such a thin O-ring, you need 2 flat surfaces that do not move against each other. Easy to do in a watch, a lot harder in a phone that is much bigger.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[macs4all]

As a user, I'd much prefer the water proofing, smaller overall size / greater capacity, and other benefits that come from an integrated battery.

Stop believing the Apple sales pitches. None of those things is incompatible with a removable battery.

Must be the Samsung sales pitches, too. But you are wrong either way.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[macs4all]

As a user, I'd prefer replaceable battery. It's not a phone, but my older son has a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 tablet. After a year and a half, it began having battery issues. It wouldn't charge at all - showing a charging screen but recycling as if we kept pulling the plug and plugging it back in. We tested other cords and it didn't work. I finally bought a battery online and paid someone to open the case (after I failed to be able to) and replace the battery. This fixed it for about 8 months, but his tablet started this up again. Still, replacing the battery should be as easy as buying a replacement online, popping the case open, putting the new battery in, and snapping the case back on.

If you had two battery failures that quickly, there is something wrong with the charging-circuit. My iPad 2. which is almost 5 years old, is still on its original battery, still gets about the same battery life as it did when new, and gets used HEAVILY each and every day.

Samsung needs to stop baking their batteries to death with each charge cycle.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Thruen]

Are you suggesting companies should develop and produce products that they expect only a small minority of the market will have any interest in over products with broader appeal? Ignorance is rife.

If it's not a selling point for most people, it's not as profitable a pursuit as that which is a selling point for most people. This isn't rocket science. As I said, you can still purchase a phone with a replaceable battery so for the few people that want it it's there, but you can't expect them to make an alternate version of every phone just for you and the six other people who care enough to not buy the phone with a built-in battery.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[jimbolauski]

Many automakers have moved to not having a gasket at all on their exhaust manifolds, those have to be air tight not just water proof. A car engine is a lot larger then a phone, has to handle thermal expansion, and constant vibration yet they are able to do it.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[ColdWetDog]

Hey, we're special snowflakes. Companies should listen to us on tech issues? Right.

Besides, this entire argument is silly. You can replace an iPhone battery when it gets weak. Takes about 20 minutes. If you don't have the technical chops to do it yourself, Apple will do it for $100 and Juanita at the mall will do it for $40 in two hours.

Back to explosions ....

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[fnj]

when will phone manufacturers reconsider the whole non removable battery issue

When the regulatory authorities get off their incompetent asses and REQUIRE it.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[fnj]

CHUMP.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Jason Levine]

Yes, at this point I think there's something else wrong with the tablet. Replacing the battery let me get my son's game data backed up. He's on the autism spectrum and playing video games is one of his coping mechanisms. When he first faced the prospect of losing all of his game data, he melted down badly. Now, I'm looking into the possibility of replacing his tablet with a Chromebook since I heard that some of them can run Android apps. This way, he can still have his Android-based games, but also use the Chromebook for schoolwork.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[MachineShedFred]

Your 200m water-resistant divers watch doesn't contain a 2500+ mAh lithium-ion battery that has lots of safety regulation around it, concerning shielding, casing, latches, connectors, etc. that are required with a removable battery.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it helps with water resistance ease of manufacturing, but when will phone manufacturers reconsider the whole non removable battery issue? Apple was a leading "innovator" of this, now it's being adopted industry wide and we are seeing losses exceeding a billion dollars of valuation.

Yes, everything is going according to Apple's plan.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course a removable battery has some drawbacks. A permanent battery has other drawbacks. It's all a matter of which you consider most important.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[rainer_d]

I know it helps with water resistance ease of manufacturing, but when will phone manufacturers reconsider the whole non removable battery issue?

Never.

Elvis has left the building on that one.

Even if my iPhone had a user-replaceable battery, I'd still buy it from Apple.

A computer-magazine I read once ordered twelve replacement-batteries (from twelve different ebay-sellers) for some Samsung-phone. They were all fakes. Some very good, but all fake in the end.

We'd probably have more fires with user-replaceable batteries these days. Not less.

And try suing that Chinese ebay-seller operating from the basement of his aunts flat.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

My watch is ancient, has had numerous strap and battery replacements, but not the o-ring. Still water proof. I have not tried to 100m, but works in a pool.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[NatasRevol]

So you know that they could have made the battery last longer or the size even smaller if they had not used replaceable batteries?

Throwing out random gadget details shows you know the specs. Nothing else.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

So if someone disagrees with how you value certain features, they are ignorant.

Who empowered you to be the emperor that can proclaim the value of things by fiat again? Go shove a removable battery up your ass sideways, you arrogant fuck.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

My GoPro has a nice reusable seal in the waterproof case that seems to work well. Why can't it be similar for a phone battery?

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[macs4all]

Yes, at this point I think there's something else wrong with the tablet. Replacing the battery let me get my son's game data backed up. He's on the autism spectrum and playing video games is one of his coping mechanisms. When he first faced the prospect of losing all of his game data, he melted down badly. Now, I'm looking into the possibility of replacing his tablet with a Chromebook since I heard that some of them can run Android apps. This way, he can still have his Android-based games, but also use the Chromebook for schoolwork.

I'm sorry, both about your Son's unfortunate condition, but moreso that I cannot help you with recommendations regarding using a Chromebook for your dual-purpose use.

But, considering how poorly, generally, many of those with ASD deal with "change" and "frustration-tolerance", I would do MUCH research before dropping cash on that. Android Apps on ChromeBooks is a VERY new thing, and I believe that the emphasis was on "Some" Apps. So, Caveat Emptor, and GOOD LUCK!

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right, except for non-removable batteries having shielding, casing, latches, and connectors. As well as the whole et cetera thing. Like, have you ever been inside a phone before? The additional components are practically negligible next to the sheer size of a battery.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Toshito]

The LG G5 has a removeable battery and it's only 0.2mm thicker than the iPhone 7.

We can't really compare them for overall size and weight since the screen on the G5 is way bigger than on the iPhone 7.

But it still proves that you can have a removeable battery in a phone and keep it thin.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[sexconker]

The only difference between an "integrated battery" and a removable one is that the removable battery is encased in plastic packaging (and is actually a battery).
"Integrated batteries" are really just daisy chained cells with one layer of packaging removed, possibly located in separate areas of the device if the designers are very bad at Tetris.

Removable batteries need a bit more volume for a given capacity than "integrated batteries" do, but it's more than worth it as it makes the thing more durable which helps to prevent thermal runaway.

The actual cells themselves are designed the same way. Removable batteries simply trade a bit of capacity per volume for safety and convenience.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're saying the rest of the industry is copying apple, only badly?

Is the sky blue? Is the pope catholic? Do bears shit in the woods?

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[MachineShedFred]

Yes, because clearly when you have a user replaceable battery, there is not more shielding and you pull the bare cells out because they didn't put the battery into any kind of casing itself to prevent accidental damage. And also, all non-replaceable batteries have latches holding the battery in place for some reason, even though it's not meant to be removed and couldn't be without taking the phone apart. Oh, and big fat easy to decouple connectors meant for not removing.

You're a fucking moron.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Joce640k]

The only difference between an "integrated battery" and a removable one is that the removable battery is encased in plastic packaging (and is actually a battery).

It's almost as if you believe that's an inviolable law of the universe: Batteries MUST have a rigid plastic case.

I wonder where I've been buying those batteries without a case all these years. Beats me.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Joce640k]

No, YOU'RE a fucking moron.

I know this because I can go on the Internet and type 'iPhone 7 teardown" and see it for myself.

I just did it and it came up with a picture of you with the words "fucking moron" written across them.

Here you go:

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardow...

Pay special attention to step 9 - a picture of somebody lifting out the iPhone battery with the following text:

While the improved battery life is great, we're more excited about the fact that this battery keeps its replacement-friendly pull tabs

Please let me know if you have difficulty with the words "replacement-friendly pull tabs".

Moron.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Joce640k]

WTF are you on about?

If you crack open an iPhone 7 the battery just lifts out (there's plenty of teardowns on the web for you to look at pictures)

All we're talking about is the waterproof seal. You're trying to prove it has to be massive and would add immense bulk to the device.

(which it clearly doesn't, it's just a very thin rubber gasket)

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[arth1]

when will phone manufacturers reconsider the whole non removable battery issue? Apple was a leading "innovator" of this

I believe this consumerism started with the Palm V PDA.
I have one, and would still have been using it[*] if it weren't for the battery.

[*]: Best e-book reader I ever had. Ambient lit single-color LCD is far less stressful on the eyes, and there's no e-ink reader that size.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

Linking to a phone without a user replaceable battery as an example of things found on user replaceable batteries.

Who's a fucking idiot again?

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Solandri]

There's more to it than a removable batteries simply being unpopular. Lithium-ion batteries have a shallower voltage curve than other rechargeable battery chemistries. That is, the voltage does not change that much as you discharge or charge the battery. This makes it trickier to detect how much remaining charge there is, and when the battery is at full charge. Doubly so when you add in voltage depression due to load, and elevation due to the device being charged. Add in Li-ion's tendency to experience thermal runaway when overcharged, or over-discharged then recharged, and getting the charging mechanism just right is critical but requires very precise knowledge of both the battery, and how much current the device draws.

Removable batteries throws a big monkey wrench into all this. Now suddenly the battery that's put into the device may not be the same as the charging mechanism was originally designed to work with. So you have to make the charging mechanism flexible enough to deal with all the different batteries which might end up being plugged into it.

I totally disagree with you that removable batteries are unpopular. If two devices with identical form and functionality, but one with a slightly smaller removable battery, were sold side-by-side, IMHO the removable battery model would far outsell the fixed battery model. But manufacturers are going with fixed batteries simply because they're easier to design, and because it helps reduce their exposure to liability (In the early days, cell phone makers were sued when their phones caught fire, but it turned out most of these people had replaced their original battery with a cheap Chinese knockoff).

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Joce640k]

Completely unlike the one in the iPhone 7, right?

https://weblizar.com/wp-conten...

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[blind biker]

It's common sense and physics. The additional plastic of the battery housing,

Wait a minute... are you unaware that non-removable batteries have the same kind of housing that removable batteries have?

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[david_thornley]

You know, disagreeing with you is not prima facie evidence of stupidity or ignorance. People legitimately have different priorities from each other. You're asking companies to produce phones that are inferior to what they've got except that they have removable batteries, and complicate their supply chains so they can sell you and a few others what they want.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[david_thornley]

It seems to me that, if phones with removable batteries would outsell their fixed-battery cousins, someone would try that. Then other manufacturers would want to cash in on the sales and copy them. This isn't happening, so you're probably wrong.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Aaden42]

Non removable batteries in an iPhone are just the battery's plastic wrap outer layer with no puncture protection at all. Every phone I've encountered with a removable battery had at least some kind of plastic or aluminum exoskeleton beyond the thin plastic from the battery manufacturing to give it some chance of not instantly folding or puncturing and catching fire when it wasn't installed. That plus the mechanism to open and latch the case and the extra bracing required internally add up to quite a bit of overhead for something so tiny.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

the difference will be marginal at most. are you really such a quibbler about a few grams or inches in a phone ? According to me the biggest issue with a non removable battery is planned obsolescence. Since lithium battery technology has a finite lifespan which is actually much shorter than the actual serviceable life of a phone the fact that you can't remove the battery compounded by the fact that phone makers actively discourage after market repair replacement means you are significantly contributing to ewaste. and as we hear time and again e-waste recycling is a sham. I have gone through about 4 to 5 failed /exhausted batteries on my lg g3 and recent did my own replacement of the so called non removeable nexus 5 battery , my phone battery life on the nexus 5 jumped from 3 hours (yes the battery was pretty badly off) to 25 hours. I could not have done that on the latest samsung or apple hardware while basically means those phones are landfill.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

but if it did change slowly over time would you really know ? lithium battery chemistry states that whiskers of metal will form in the battery no matter what so there will be degradation. there is no way that is not happening so it more likely that the changes happened over time so gradually you are just not aware of it. Remember no battery lasts forever.

Re:Non removable battery FTW

[TheFakeTimCook]

but if it did change slowly over time would you really know ? lithium battery chemistry states that whiskers of metal will form in the battery no matter what so there will be degradation. there is no way that is not happening so it more likely that the changes happened over time so gradually you are just not aware of it. Remember no battery lasts forever.

Oh, I agree. But I am pretty sure I would notice more than a 25% of so variation over time in either run-time or change-time, and so far, I am also pretty sure that I haven't.

Ruin it for the rest of us

[Dan East]

Let's hope this doesn't lead to the typical FAA overreaction and banning of the use of any electronics in flight until they can spend years deciding that it's safe. Like how WiFi devices were going to start causing planes to drop out of the sky. And somehow cellular communication is still suspect (or at least it's suspected that it will result in a reduction of Airline revenue if people can use their own data and make calls in-flight using the standard cellular network).

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's hope this doesn't lead to the typical FAA overreaction and banning of the use of any electronics in flight until they can spend years deciding that it's safe. Like how WiFi devices were going to start causing planes to drop out of the sky. And somehow cellular communication is still suspect (or at least it's suspected that it will result in a reduction of Airline revenue if people can use their own data and make calls in-flight using the standard cellular network).

I'd rather have them overreact than underreact.

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[burtosis]

You are far too high up for a cell phone to work on a typical flight. Only during takeoff and landing would you be close enough to towers. Also if you are moving too fast that may cause issues as well.

It can't be that dangerous because fully 1/4 of people never shut off their phone and at least one in twenty is texting, updating Facebook, or straight up placing a call on take offs and landings. I fly a lot and it's amusing how low the level of compliance is.

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[Joce640k]

If it was really dangerous the 'terrorists' would be using it as a weapon.

I'd be OK with it if they blocked voice calls and allowed texting/data. There's not many things worse than being sat 18 inches from some idiot yakking on a phone for a few hours.

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[NatasRevol]

Trust me, they're under reacting.

The *airlines* are saying you can't use exploding phones on planes.

The TSA is letting exploding phones right on through security (theater).

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[Jason Levine]

You don't need to be using your phone for online activities for it to heat up. I play some games on my phone and some of the more graphics intensive ones can warm my phone up a bit. Not nearly enough for my phone to explode, but replace my phone with one that has a defective battery and it just might.

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[Joce640k]

It wouldn't be difficult to get 100 cellphone batteries together on the other side of security and use them to start a major fire on an aircraft.

(ie. Send 100 people through with cellphones and gather the batteries together...)

Could you bring an aircraft down that way? I don't know.

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[NatasRevol]

And since there's millions of unreturned Note7s, its a very real threat. I wonder how many phones one person could get through TSA stops.

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[Anonymous Coward]

Why worry about phone batteries? Bring a laptop and some spare batteries through, thats a lot more potential energy than phones. Maybe enough to get 50-100 phone batteries worth of power through security with one person.

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[NatasRevol]

But the Note7s have more than potential...

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[mysidia]

But the Note7's have plausible deniability. Plus a lot more people carry cell phones around than laptops, so the impact of banning them would be higher, thus more pleasure for the bad guys (The TSA serve the bad guys with each added inconvenience and disruption).

Re:Ruin it for the rest of us

[mysidia]

Only during takeoff and landing would you be close enough to towers.

Depending which band and how much power that cell phone is operating on, they can reach out to 20+ miles.
Being in the air should be no problem, unless they're flying over wilderness.

On the other hand, the base station may refuse to allow, because operating them in the air
can disrupt cellular services on the ground......

Re: Ruin it for the rest of us

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't flown since 1986. I would jast as soon have them do whatever.

A concern but nothing to panic about

[foxalopex]

Just about all modern cellphones use a lithium polymer battery which will potentially explode or catch on fire if you damage / bend or drop the phone hard enough. If you've ever watched gizmoslip on youtube you'll notice that even iphones will get dangerously hot if you drop them hard enough. From what I heard the Note 7 had a failure rate of about 1/1000 which means even if you get something out of the bad batch the chance of it exploding is somewhat rare. Unfortunately this brings with it a lot of bad publicity and it probably won't be cheap for Samsung to replace all the bad phones.

Re:A concern but nothing to panic about

[Anonymous Coward]

Your comment would be relevant if people were bending or dropping these exploding Note 7's rather than just sitting around with them in their pockets.

Re:A concern but nothing to panic about

[ausekilis]

With thin enough phones, having them in your pocket *could* bend them. I know lots of people that keep their phones in their back pockets then sit down on them. With tight enough pants, even having the phone in your front pocket could bend it. It wouldn't even really take much to bend the exterior, after all they are typically aluminum and thinner than your average spoon.

Re:A concern but nothing to panic about

[fluffernutter]

But if that's the case, anything with a lithium polymer battery in it is a potential bomb in a plane.

Re:A concern but nothing to panic about

[macs4all]

From what I heard the Note 7 had a failure rate of about 1/1000...

That's statistically REALLY high, actually. Think of how many GN7s there are! Didn't they say something like 2 MEELION phones were being recalled???

Re:A concern but nothing to panic about

[macs4all]

With thin enough phones, having them in your pocket *could* bend them. I know lots of people that keep their phones in their back pockets then sit down on them. With tight enough pants, even having the phone in your front pocket could bend it. It wouldn't even really take much to bend the exterior, after all they are typically aluminum and thinner than your average spoon.

Yet, even during the "Bendgate" days of the iPhone 6; there weren't any reports of battery fires from "bent" phones.

Re:A concern but nothing to panic about

[MachineShedFred]

I guess I'm surprised that nobody has started using carbon fiber yet.

Re:A concern but nothing to panic about

[jon3k]

That was the 6 Plus and the whole thing was debunked by consumer reports. Turns out all phones bend, some easier than the iPhone, some harder. Shocking, I know.

Re:A concern but nothing to panic about

[TheFakeTimCook]

That was the 6 Plus and the whole thing was debunked by consumer reports. Turns out all phones bend, some easier than the iPhone, some harder. Shocking, I know.

I have a 6 plus; so I know. But it was an easy reference to grab...

Re:Stephen King, author, dead at 54

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this really true?

So it's Apple's fault that Samsung screwed up?

[Brannon]

Apple has had non-user replaceable batteries since the original iPhone (almost 10 years now) and they haven't lost a billion in valuation due to that.

Re:So it's Apple's fault that Samsung screwed up?

[burtosis]

Apple has had non-user replaceable batteries since the original iPhone (almost 10 years now) and they haven't lost a billion in valuation due to that.

iPhones have had battery recalls. Moreover many iPhones, pods and pads have suffered unusually short battery lifetimes. My kids had two iPod touch 5th generation both purchased at the same Apple Store on the same day and both used nearly identically and charged on the same charger the same amount of time yet one battery failed within 6 months and the other is fine after two years. Apple has been lucky with fires and they did lose stock value over the issues with iPhone 5, just not a billion dollars like Samsung.

Re:So it's Apple's fault that Samsung screwed up?

[jellomizer]

Is it luck or better engineering?

Perhaps the issue that caused that one phone to have a shorter life span was from a designed where if it used the battery as is, it would had exploded.

That's what happens.

[fluffernutter]

I like Samsung phones, but I'm glad I didn't end up with a Note 7. But every corporation is out there trying to cut every corner they can, and this is the chance they are taking.

Citation required

[Brannon]

Please point me to the waterproof phone with a replaceable battery which is as thin & light as the iPhone 7, with equivalent performance & battery life.

Re:Citation required

[Joce640k]

False argument. The fact that it doesn't exist yet doesn't mean it can't be built.

Many things like waterproof watches are sealed using 0.5mm O-rings. Google "0.5mm O-ring" if you don't believe me.

Would a 0.5mm O-ring add too much bulk to an iPhone? Don't be an idiot.

Plus: How exactly do you think the iPhone 7 is sealed? Unicorns and rainbows, or ... a rubber gasket and silicone gunk just like everything else?

Could people mess up the waterproof seal if they were allowed to take the back off? Sure, but that's their problem, not Apple's.

Re:Citation required

[Anonymous Coward]

>wants thinner
Found the cancer.

Re:Citation required

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't about Apple it's about Samsung and your posts do nothing to prove your "point."

If breaking the seal is all that is needed to void a warranty then what's the difference between that and what is currently being offered? Why do you think having some kind of exposed hatch is a better design than having to (Gasp!) take a screw driver to the device?

Until you can prove your own point you're just droning on like any other hater when they have nothing to back their OPINION on other than their unreasonable hate.

A Grade A Hater. That's all you are.

Re:Citation required

[Joce640k]

Huh? Somebody made a false claim about waterproofing.

I never once mentioned Apple vs. Samsung.

Re:Citation required

[Anonymous Coward]

How exactly do you think the iPhone 7 is sealed?
Sure, but that's their problem, not Apple's.
 
AGAIN, this is about Samsung, not Apple. And AGAIN, you haven't brought a single design element to the discussion to explain how offering a "hatch" on a phone over the contemporary sealed design is somehow better in the face of the problem being discussed.
 
Stop being a buffoon.

Re: Citation required

[topologicalanomaly47]

Galaxy s5. Close enogh, better screen to size ratio.

Re:Citation required

[sexconker]

Removable batteries can be removed from the device. This has many benefits.

As batteries age and lose capacity, they can be replaced by the user at minimal cost.
Users can carry a spare battery with them if they're going to be without access to a charger for whatever reason.
If a phone crashes you can always reboot it by pulling the battery.
In the event of a battery recall, new batteries can be distributed and bad batteries can be collected while users keep their phones at all times. This is faster and cheaper than recalling and servicing/replacing phones.
If you need to be sure your phone is off for security/privacy/whatever you can pull the battery.
If water gets into your phone you can pull the battery and rice bag it. (And yes, water can still get into phones rated to IP67 or IP68.)
If your phone is dropped the battery and whatever holds it in place act as impact absorbers. My phone has been dropped a few times and the worst that has happened is the back plate popping off and the battery flying out. The more tightly built your brick is the more likely it is that energy will transfer to your screen and shatter it.

Re:Citation required

[merky1]

Samsung S5 - Headphone Jack, USB, and replaceable back.

Once again Apple claims innovation that existed for several years. And sadly the rest of the industry has followed blindly into this corner, leaving me without any upgrade path for 3+ years now.

Re:Citation required

[arth1]

Users can carry a spare battery with them if they're going to be without access to a charger for whatever reason.

Not always a good idea, unless the battery has protection that prevents shorting, even if put in a pocket with keys, nail clippers and small change.

But yes, I like changeable batteries. My last phone, I had two battery chargers and two spare batteries - one at home, and one at work. I could easily switch out the battery in either place, without the inconvenience and personal risk of carrying an extra incendiary device.

Re:Citation required

[Kernel Kurtz]

If people could just replace the battery when it gets old, many people would choose not to buy new phones.

That is the primary reason why they are becoming less common. They interfere with planned obsolescence. Any other reason you may hear is just attempted rationalization.

Re:Citation required

[david_thornley]

Um, the fact that it doesn't exist doesn't mean it can be built, you know. You're talking about adding stuff to the phone without taking up volume or weight, and that's got some inherent problems.

If the battery isn't replaceable, it doesn't need its own shell, and since the connections with the phone are inside the case they don't need their own waterproofing. The phone case isn't arbitrarily broken up to fit a battery, and hence can be made inherently stronger. Make it replaceable and you're adding at least two layers of metal or plastic inside the phone. You need to have secure attachment points, and a connector that is waterproof in itself and will work with lots of plugging and unplugging. You're probably going to have to thicken the phone casing to keep strong. You're likely to be unable to make the battery a little smaller to conform to the battery casing you select rather than conforming to whatever space is available in the phone interior. The cumulative effects may be small, but they will exist.

Does your waterproof watch have an easily removable battery? If not, it's completely irrelevant.

Is this related to the battery size/charging speed

[wisebabo]

I read somewhere (sorry I forget where) that the problem may be that the Samsung phones have a 3500mWH (or something like that) battery which is significantly larger than the iPhones which (I think) are less than 2000. Are the batteries the same physical size? That, and I heard that they charge in roughly the same amount of time.

So does that mean that they are pumping in almost twice as much current? Is it possible to damage the battery that way? Can a battery store more energy by just overloading it?

Maybe Samsung can fix this problem by changing the software(?) in the phones so that they charge slower. Am I missing something? (Or a lot of things, I'm not a battery expert).

Re:Stephen King, author, dead at 54

[aicrules]

netcraft has not confirmed it. Neither has any media outlet.

Removable batteries

[emil]

All of this would have been avoidable with removable batteries.

Lithium-Ion batteries are required to implement five separate safety systems to prevent these combustion events.

Samsung is having quality-control issues. If the batteries were removable, the situation would not be trashing the company, but this does serve poetic justice.

Re:Removable batteries

[ColdWetDog]

All of this would have been avoidable with removable batteries.

Why? They can explode and fail like other batteries. Just because you pull it out of the rest of the circuit doesn't mean you've isolated the problem. Samsung would still have to recall the batteries. It's just as easy to recall a phone entirely. Might have saved Samsung some money but that doesn't really change much of anything.

Removable batteries are a whole other conversation, but bad QA is bad QA. Hell, the batteries on the 787 were removable. Didn't help Boeing much.

Re:Removable batteries

[mcisely]

Fixing Boeing's problem didn't require replacing the entire plane.

Re:Removable batteries

[MachineShedFred]

Yeah, because all those Sony laptop batteries that we saw blowing 3 foot flames out of notebook computers weren't all removable.

No wait, they were. As it turns out, badly designed energy-dense electronics can still be badly designed.

Re:Removable batteries

[apoc.famine]

Individual plane owners also couldn't decide to replace the battery with a $4 knock-off from China that was more dangerous.
 
If the battery was replaceable, there's no guarantee that it would get replaced with a non-dangerous battery. And even if it was replaced with a good one at Samsung's expense, it's entirely possible for some sizable subset of owners to pair THAT one with a dangerous spare. That leads to even greater problems, because then, even if the battery that's lighting on fire is a cheap knock-off, the perception is that the replacements were bad too. There's no easy way to recover from a failure like this.

Re:Removable batteries

[Anonymous Coward]

By "all of this" being avoided, I presume grandparent is referring to the cost that Samsung is bearing. If the batteries were removable, Samsung could have shipped replacement batteries to customers instead of requiring phones to be sent back in to the manufacturer.

Re:Removable batteries

[MachineShedFred]

It's possible they would still have to recall the whole phone, if the issue is in the charging circuit, and that circuit / controller is not on the battery which can be replaced.

Besides, if they didn't immediately have all the batteries needed for the recall, you're just as screwed with a battery recall on a replaceable unit, because you still don't have a working battery.

The odds of it being easier / cheaper do go up though. But it's far from certain.

Re:Removable batteries

[jellomizer]

The idea of replaceable batteries is a lost cause.
If you feel that strongly about this cause. I would suggest that you put effort into designing a replaceable battery design. That maximizes battery space, minimizes weight, makes the device waterproof, insures proper battery life. and doesn't make the device any bulker.

Then you are good to go.

Re:Removable batteries

[blind biker]

All of this would have been avoidable with removable batteries.

Why? They can explode and fail like other batteries. Just because you pull it out of the rest of the circuit doesn't mean you've isolated the problem. Samsung would still have to recall the batteries. It's just as easy to recall a phone entirely.

Samsung would have saved a lot of time: instead of paying for the shipping of the phone from user to Samsung + from Samsung to user, they could have just sent the batteries to the users. Basically, Samsung could have at least halved the shipping expenses, but actually more, because the phone would require more packaging for shipping. This is equally true whether the batteries/phones are shipped as single or as bulk.

Re: Removable batteries

[Lenny369]

lol thank you

Re:Removable batteries

[rtb61]

The idea of replaceable batteries is a legislative cause and while we are at it forcing a required battery shape and connection are also on the cards. Here's betting the replaceable battery crowd will win because the current design of forced resource wasting, unnecessary pollution generation, redundancy program is psychopathically insane and must be stopped.

Contrary to any bullshit out there due to size and shape of phones making them waterproof is very difficult and there are none in the consumer market what so ever (just temporarily sort of water resistant). To make a light weight water proof phone with a removable battery is easy. Make phone internals, cast internals in solid resin (so basically the phone is one solid lump, care needs to be taken with compressible eletronics, where they are position in relation to the vary thicknesses of the solid case. Incorporate the battery in the backing reinforcement case ie the back panel is the battery, you toss the entire panel when you replace the battery and that panel is fully supported by the cast resin body of the phone and is not only the power supply but the heat sink. You could also have the viewing panel removable, as it would be fully supported by the cast resin case in terms of compression loads. That resin must conduct heat but of course not electricity.

Re: Removable batteries

[Anonymous Coward]

The GS5 fits all those criteria

Re:Stephen King, author, dead at 54

[fluffernutter]

This site says it is a hoax. http://en.mediamass.net/people... That's all I could find.

Well one lesson from this..

[toonces33]

One lesson from this is that if the Note 7 had removable batteries, this all could have been a lot easier for Samsung to deal with.

I am not quite getting how/what it is that they managed to screw up so their batteries keep catching fire. How did this make it through Q/A the first time, and how is it that the so-called replacements are still having issues.

Re:Well one lesson from this..

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not quite getting how/what it is that they managed to screw up so their batteries keep catching fire. How did this make it through Q/A the first time, and how is it that the so-called replacements are still having issues.
 
Soooo.... you don't know what causes the problem but...
 
  if the Note 7 had removable batteries, this all could have been a lot easier for Samsung to deal with.
 
You know the solution?

How does that work, exactly? You sound like a clueless user when you say stuff like this.

Re:Well one lesson from this..

[macs4all]

I am not quite getting how/what it is that they managed to screw up so their batteries keep catching fire. How did this make it through Q/A the first time, and how is it that the so-called replacements are still having issues.

Marketing Department "Shorter Battery Charge Times!", trumping the QA Department "This is dangerous".

Re:Well one lesson from this..

[MachineShedFred]

Well, the thought goes something along the lines of "if the battery was user detachable, then they would only need to recall the battery instead of the whole phone."

It's still bunk, because you still can't use the phone without the battery, and using the battery before getting the replacement means risking a chemical fire. And, if the problem is in the charging circuit, then you're still recalling the whole phone.

But don't let that get in the way of mindless scapegoating.

Re:Well one lesson from this..

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus if the battery goes up your phone is hosed regardless of whether you can take the lid off or not.

We Love Samsung!

[TheFakeTimCook]

Thanks to you, the iPhone 7 is breaking all sales projections.

Keep up the good work!

Love,

-Tim

you made my day, sir :-)

[Herve5]

All is in the title.
And, my Fairphone does have removable batteries...

US probes.

[ledow]

Well, what are those US probes doing burning the phone in the first place?!

Re:Is this related to the battery size/charging sp

[macs4all]

I read somewhere (sorry I forget where) that the problem may be that the Samsung phones have a 3500mWH (or something like that) battery which is significantly larger than the iPhones which (I think) are less than 2000. Are the batteries the same physical size? That, and I heard that they charge in roughly the same amount of time.

So does that mean that they are pumping in almost twice as much current? Is it possible to damage the battery that way? Can a battery store more energy by just overloading it?

Maybe Samsung can fix this problem by changing the software(?) in the phones so that they charge slower. Am I missing something? (Or a lot of things, I'm not a battery expert).

Yes!

And I pointed this EXACT THING out a few days ago right here on Slashdot, when this story about the Southwest Airlines fire first broke.

By the way, Samsung HAS apparently already made it possible to defeat "Fast Charge mode"; so they KNOW what the problem is; they just don't want to admit that it takes TWICE as long to charge an S7 than it does an iPhone 6 or 7, for an advantage of only (maybe) 6% better battery-life, because the S7 is simply a POS battery-hog of a design.

Samsung attack?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe Samsung have become the new largest terrorists?

Louis Rossmann had a theory

[Stonent1]

His theory was cheapo amazon or chinese usb c cables.

The Note 2 is my last Samsung phone.

[emil]

Knox counters to track me loading a new ROM? Samsung, you can keep them - we're done.

It gets worse!

[Anonymous Coward]

My SamSung Galaxy GT Anal Probe burst into flames! I spent a week in the hospital with 3rd degree anal burns. If I had eaten at Taco Bell, I probably would be dead!

Alternate headline

[Anonymous Coward]

Samsung Gives New Meaning To Term 'Burner Phones'

bigger, heavier, slower than an iPhone 7

[Brannon]

Samsung Galaxy S5 dimensions: 145.3 x 73.4 x 8.9 mm, 170.1 g
iPhone 7 dimensions : 138.3 x 67.1 x 7.1 mm, 138 g

I won't even bother with the benchmarks, because we're comparing phones that are 2+ years apart--but obviously the iPhone kills the S5.

You ever think that maybe the reason Samsung has followed Apple on the integrated battery (etc.) is because they can't compete otherwise?

Re: bigger, heavier, slower than an iPhone 7

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it's probably more to do work the reviews of Samsung's phones that said the design looked cheap in comparison to Apple's phones.

Re:Is this related to the battery size/charging sp

[Anonymous Coward]

Other phones/batteries have fast-charging capability and IIRC that does shorten the life of the cells relative to slow charging.

Theoretically you should be able to double the amp hours of the battery and double the charging current and keep the charge time the same, without causing any problems, because you could simply put 2 of the smaller batteries in the system, if they were thermally isolated enough etc.

My theory

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is boycotting Samsung by provoking these incidents so Samsung image and reputation is highly affected