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IT Workers Facing Layoffs Jolted By CEO's Message (computerworld.com)
HCSC recently announced layoffs for more than 500 IT workers, and expects them to train their replacements from an India-based contractor. But a few days earlier, CEO Paula Steiner said, "As full-time retiring baby boomers move on to their next chapter, the makeup of our organization will consist more of young and non-traditional workers, such as part-time workers or contractors." dcblogs quotes ComputerWorld:
What Steiner didn't say in the employee broadcast is that some of the baby boomers moving "on to the next chapter" are being pushed out the door. "Obviously not all of us are 'retiring' -- a bunch of us are being thrown under the bus," said one older employee.
The insurance provider argues that its members want easier technology solutions that "help keep rising costs in check. Our IT teams are being transformed...focusing on those and other member needs." But Slashdot reader ErichTheRed writes: Having a CEO actually say in public that their company wants to engage in age discrimination and eliminate full-time employment, rather than just carry out the work in secret, is new to me... for those mid- to late-career technical folks, how have you managed to adjust to new realities like this?
The insurance provider argues that its members want easier technology solutions that "help keep rising costs in check. Our IT teams are being transformed...focusing on those and other member needs." But Slashdot reader ErichTheRed writes: Having a CEO actually say in public that their company wants to engage in age discrimination and eliminate full-time employment, rather than just carry out the work in secret, is new to me... for those mid- to late-career technical folks, how have you managed to adjust to new realities like this?
Those H1B's are just there to "temporarily" fill a lack of skilled workers.
Om, nomnomnom...
This is not the first time we've read about laid-off employees being expected to train H-1B replacements. But I've also seen numerous statements that it's illegal to do that. I realize many companies like to play fast and loose with laws, but - why aren't we seeing lawsuits from people in that position? I know some people will be scared they might lose their retirement or severance... but I can't imagine every single person affected would be too scared to sue.
#DeleteChrome
I saw 50 year olds being laid off when in 1980 when I was entering the field. And that's when we had stronger age discrimination protection (pre 2009 gutting by SCOTUS) and no H1B's.
If you are lucky or a genius (top 1% in your field), you'll be fine. otherwise, count on being dumped on the street without warning at about 45 to 54 years old. If we can get the ACA correctly in place, it would reduce some of the incentive ( "self" insuring corporations realize that older people cost a lot more for insurance starting about age 45 and want to dump them unless they have critical skills).
The next 20 years are going to be bad. A glut of older workers with no savings willing to work at anything to keep from starving. Meanwhile fields like Trucking with 3 million employees may practically vanish over 5 years and the new jobs will only be open to 20 year olds trained in the new technologies (and they may not find enough jobs either- the 30 year olds I know are all about 8 years behind my generation to reach their first cars, first homes, etc.) and I was about 8 years behind my parents generation.
When your skills are hot, save half what you make until you have enough to live until age 80 if you lose your job. If your job is stable, buy a house because that will fix your monthly payments. The house payment stays about $1200 a month while the apartment rent goes from $1200 to $1800 over a decade. Sure there are repairs but get home owners insurance and learn to change a washer and patch sheetrock (EASY for IT types).
Management is good money for 4-8 years but a dead end (layoffs). Getting some critical, complex skill that can't easily be outsources is good. And as long as indian language skills suck, business analysts are going to be safe for a while.
Over time- packages are going to become more common. You purchase them and configure them but you don't code them. Problem is they can be replaced with a new hot package you don't get trained in without warning.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
This is how you get out of this situation. When you get out of school, pay down your debt, budget, save, invest, and decide what it means to "need" something versus "want" something. By the time you're 40, you should be glad someone is going to show you the door.
The American worker is not safe without organized protection, which only doctors and lawyers have managed to maintain. If you're going to refuse to organize because you're "too smart and unions are bad," then at least work to protect yourself. Because when it comes time to be laid off, it's a bit too late to say "that'll never be me."
Quote from her biography on the HCSC web site (last paragraph):
That quote says she is involved with the management of 5 other organizations.
"... MBA from the Wharton School." Not a background of someone who understands computer technology.
I'm guessing that people who work there will call to have a computer problem fixed and will talk to someone who doesn't speak English well and who has very little knowledge of computer technology. That has happened to me numerous times involving several companies.
Walk out together without training any replacements. This is what labor unions are for.
Force your employer into a situation it cannot handle by itself. It needs its workers and will stop functioning if enough workers walk out.
"What difference – at this point, what difference does it make?"
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Yes, competition sucks. Welcome to the global economy.
That cushy job you call "yours" actually belongs to your employer. You are paid at the owners' discretion.
OK, having said all that, I can tell you that, in all probability, the idiots in charge will be furiously back-pedaling in a few years, once they realize that you get what you pay for. I've been through this. Upper management has strictly no clue what IT even does, but they understand the bottom line. If some Indian IT consulting company offers services at bargain basement prices, they don't ask too many questions. To them, IT services are fungible.
If you were good at your job, you might be able to get it back at that point. Of course, if you were good, you probably found something better in the meantime. In that case, you will be thanking your current employer for giving you the kick in the ass you needed to get on with your life.
Might makes right irrelevant.
Trump still outsources as much as possible, and also avoids paying decent wages to his business workers.
more and more data thefts are occurring. These out-sourced outfits taking over entire IT departments are largely maintainers, not designers. They have no chance of keeping up with today's hackers.
I don't really oppose or support higher levels of immigration; from my own selfish perspective it isn't clear which is better. Legal immigration basically just increases the US population, which I'm not sure has a positive or a negative effect. (I work at a company started by a guy who came here from Jordan, and before that I made pretty good money working in SV for two guys from Russia and Pakistan, so that affects my opinion a bit.)
Illegal immigration- the kind that really obsesses people- affects me by letting me buy cheaper strawberries. They're picked in the hot sun by people making $1.50 an hour. I'm not worried about not getting a job picking strawberries- nobody is when McDonalds is still hiring. I'm more worried about expensive strawberries. It may be immoral to exploit people like this, but this is a good racket we've got going and if we were smart, we wouldn't let our xenophobia blind us to the artificially low cost of groceries- at least not until strawberries can be picked by robots.
Outsourcing is a different beast altogether. The economic impact is much worse when the job moves overseas, or (same thing) is filled by an H1-B who earns little money here and then takes it back home instead of spending it here. Companies save fistfuls of money this way and they tend to stuff it into their mattresses.
Labour unions providing unemployment insurance (short-time pay coverage) allows for this sort of thing - but no idea if they have this structure in the US, and my understanding is that in the US IT workers are very union-adverse.
Newer have understanded how replacing people that all ready know the system helps reduce costs? It cant be good to bring in tons of people that dont even properly speak the language, newer the less know how systems works...
The conservatives shat on the Unions time and time again to where they barely even exist now. This is what you get. You asked for this bed. Lay in it. I already got mine.
Yes, IT people could become longshoremen except that for the most part we are no good at beating people up. But would we be able to whistle at women again?
Labor Unions are the perfect solution to the IT problem Slashdot has.
IT needs to realize it's skilled labor at this point. High school students are graduating with basics in IT.
Instead of whining about how new CS graduates 'can't do anything' realize that they're being trained to do something different. Pick up the high school student, give them an apprenticeship and let them work their way up.
I would like to walk through the house of everyone getting laid off to tally the "Made in ________" labels.
Blue Collar workers racing to the bottom brought us Walmart and then wondered where their blue collar jobs went.
Why dont you fuckers form Unions? This shit is exactly why other trades formed unions. Follow the Electrician Union model and all of it will be fixed almost overnight.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Look - companies can and should be able to outsource their IT depts - particularly if the C level execs have no experience in IT.
quote:
It's been eight months since I left, no significant features committed to source control. We were doing major releases every month previously. They are thinking of bringing us back now but it is too late we've all moved on to better work. Company is losing millions a year by not having all of their refineries using this custom system that's been eight years in development. Tens of millions to re write from scratch. I've heard they are considering bringing us back but we have all moved on to better things now.
Solution:
Obviously don't go back. Particularly don't go back to your old jobs. That would be stupid.
Instead - a team of you fellow co-workers needs to get together. You all know the current system by heart; the backlog and the future of the product. Offer company to replace current outsourced company - with performance targets, bonuses, etc. (No you won't met the current price outsourced company X is offering - they wouldn't be interested if X wasn't doing the job correctly. Your target is higher and you expect (and demand) to get paid more.)
Well, I've seen H-1Bs across the spectrum, from utter incompetents to people I'd hire in a heartbeat. Just like anyone else.
The real problem is that the people behind this don't see IT as a profession, like a being a lawyer or a doctor; they see IT expertise as a commodity, like pig iron. You go with the lowest price supplier, and tough luck to the higher priced ones.
But even pig iron comes in different grades, and if all you do is go with the lowest price thing called "pig iron" chances are you won't be getting a bargain if your requirements are high -- which they should be in the case of something like IT, given how deeply IT is entwined with every aspect of how a modern enterprise runs. And given that level of involvement it makes sense to cultivate a long term workforce rather than a transient one.
If you go for the lowest price you can get you're going to create a problem, whether that is with domestic or immigrant labor. In reality you want to go for the best people you can get, and retain them for as long as you can because they only perform better with experience.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Wrong. Those tasks are done *well* by people in the USA today, and very poorly by outsourced ignorant people reading from a script in a foreign land. Customers are getting sick and tired of that nonsense.
Virtualization doesn't automate most problem resolution which are application centric, you are spewing some kind of marketing nonsense. For example, an app runs off the rails, eating up storage with logging, and your kind is rejoicing the automation keeps growing the disk.
DevOps based in the USA with proper skills and experience are on the rise, not some peasant turned cert-monkey. And those people in poor lands that are the prime recipients of outsourcing sell proprietary information and personal info, because of the lack of venue for prosecution (e.g. India)
That depends on which country you live in. Here in the US, quitting your job most likely means that you are ineligible for unemployment benefits. Now, if you can successfully argue that training your replacement is a form of constructive dismissal, then you may be able to receive benefits. In my opinion, both severance and unemployment benefits are so short term, they aren't worth worrying about. What really matters is having MONEY IN THE BANK. A nice cash cushion allows you to be choosy in accepting a new job, and you are negotiating from a position of strength. Employers prey on the faults of human nature, If more people had cash cushions, employers would not be able to get away with what they do today.
It's not that it's constructive dismissal as much as it is a "significant alteration of work responsibilities and duties" which unless it was specifically stated in the hiring contract before starting the job, would be a violation of said contract and thus considered "just cause" for quitting without affecting EI qualification.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I honestly think, having talked to so many IT folks about this, that everyone thinks their job is safe and will always be safe. Not trying to get political, but lots of people in IT lean Libertarian and are basically out for themselves and favor almost no regulation on businesses, This is why a traditional union would never work. Lots of people think their skills are far and away better than the average worker, so why would they ever accept concessions to make things better for others? They don't see the labor/management divide as adversarial, because most companies have been very careful to craft a "collaborative culture" that makes people think management cares about labor's needs.
The truth is that IT really does have a range of skill sets. Some people are amazing, and smart companies do everything to hang onto these. Others need training but don't feel they need training, for example. I think a trade group, and guild/apprenticeship system would work wonders for this mainly because I directly benefited from informal mentoring by senior folks in my previous jobs to get where I am now.
A union would mean people standing up for members of their group when they face an issue, and I honestly don't think that is how most IT people are wired. Organized labor is different -- a timely example is a construction project down the road from us. The company erecting the beams for the building isn't using union ironworkers -- and let's just say trucks delivering equipment are being delayed by both the menacing ironworkers out front and the Teamsters driving them. Could you imagine telling an IT person they need to go help their union brothers on a picket line across town?