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EPA Increases Amount of Renewable Fuel To Be Blended Into Gasoline (arstechnica.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Last week the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) announced its final renewable fuel standards for 2017, requiring that fuel suppliers blend an additional 1.2 billion gallons of renewable fuel into U.S. gas and diesel from 2016 levels. The rule breaks down the requirements to include quotas for cellulosic biofuels, biomass-based diesel, advanced biofuel, and traditional renewable fuel. Reuters points out that the aggressive new biofuel standards will create a dilemma for an incoming Trump administration, given that his campaign courted both the gas and corn industries. While the EPA under the Obama administration has continually increased so-called renewable fuel standards (RFS), the standards were first adopted by a majority-Republican Congress in 2005 and then bolstered in 2007 with a requirement to incorporate 36 billion gallons of renewable fuel into the fuel supply by 2022, barring "a determination that implementation of the program is causing severe economic or environmental harm," as the EPA writes. Some biofuels are controversial not just for oil and gas suppliers but for some wildlife advocates as well. Collin O'Mara, CEO of the National Wildlife Federation, said in a statement that the corn ethanol industry that most stands to benefit from the EPA's expansion of the renewable fuel standards "is responsible for the destruction of millions of acres of wildlife habitat and degradation of water quality." Still, the EPA contends that biofuels made from corn and other regenerating plants offer reductions in overall fuel emissions, if the processes used to make and transport the fuels are included. "Advanced biofuels" will offer "50 percent lifecycle carbon emissions reductions," and their share of the new standards will grow by 700 million gallons in 2017 from 2016 requirements, the EPA says. Cellulosic biofuel will be increased by 81 million gallons and biomass-based diesel will be increased by 100 million gallons. "Non-advanced or 'conventional' renewable fuel" will be increased to 19.28 billion gallons from 18.11 billion gallons in 2016. Conventional renewable fuel "typically refers to ethanol derived from corn starch and must meet a 20 percent lifecycle GHG [greenhouse gas] reduction threshold," according to EPA guidelines. Other kinds of renewable fuels include sugarcane-based ethanol, cellulosic ethanol derived from the stalks, leaves, and cobs leftover from a corn harvest, and compressed natural gas gleaned from wastewater facilities.

56 of 351 comments (clear)

  1. And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by MachineShedFred · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A bigger percentage of less energy-dense material per unit volume means more volume gets burned to create the same amount of energy. Add to that the amount of energy needed to create the ethanol, and does this actually make any difference whatsoever? Could it possibly actually make more total overall emissions?

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    1. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by queazocotal · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The total amount of fossil fuels needed to produce one gallon of ethanol is (counting everything, like fertiliser, cultivation, water provision, ...) is quite close indeed to one gallon. Increasing the amount of renewables without specifying total efficiency is simply and purely a subsidy giveaway to farmers and with only negative consequences to the environment.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... - chinese paper.

    2. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by zugmeister · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ethanol made from corn is good. It's what engines crave.
      Stop looking at the big picture, it messes with the black and white that makes up the world.

    3. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by cryptizard · · Score: 5, Informative

      They did specify total efficiency, did you not read the summary? It says 20-50% reduction in lifecycle emissions, which include production and transportation of the fuel as well as burning it.

    4. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by umghhh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It gets really funny when you take into account the impact has been made by clearing forest to make up for lost production capacity of food stuffs now when we produce all this bio gasoline. It may just be that indeed the Chinese were right all along - the only way to limit damage is contraception. The other population control measures are all human but usually in conflict with valid laws.

    5. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ethanol The Engine Mutilator!
      It's What Cars Crave!

    6. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      The bored bureaucrats at the EPA need to feel useful.

      Ethanol subsides are not something dreamed up by the EPA.
      They are mandated by Congress.

    7. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To understand the politics of ethanol, you only need to answer two questions.
      1. Which state benefits the most from corn subsidies?
      2. Which state holds the first presidential caucuses?
      This explains everything.

    8. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by radarskiy · · Score: 2

      "The total amount of fossil fuels needed to produce one gallon of ethanol is (counting everything, like fertiliser, cultivation, water provision, ...) is quite close indeed to one gallon"

      Energy balance is 1.3 for corn ethanol specifically. Sugarcane ethanol, OTOH, is at 8 which is comparable to new oil discoveries.

    9. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can we stop saying "farmers". Yes these are crops, grown on land, but these industries have as much in common with farmers as Apple has in common with George's BBQ in that both are businesses. Jim Bob growing 40 acres of cranberries is a far cry from Megaconglomerate Inc growing 40,000 acres of them. And just like with Apple and George, Jim Bob ain't getting shit for a subsidy while M Inc is getting billions.

      Its just another corporate subsidy aka businesses that don't need more money being given money while those that do need it get jack shit.

    10. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by mikeiver1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fear not intrepid fellow abuser of the environment, president elect Fuckwit will repeal the EPA and all the rules they have passed over the last few years, if not decades! I remember the smog of the 70's in Los Angeles and it was fucking horrible. I suspect that with the throttles being opened to the big oil companies and the repeal of rules holding the car makers at bay that we will see a significant up tick in smog in urban areas that have large car populations and limited public transportation. But that will take a decade to start to be felt and of course it will be all the fault of the democrats after 8 years of the Fuckwit and the cool aid drinking nut job screwing your children's future into oblivion and getting orders of magnitude richer along the way.

    11. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by BronsCon · · Score: 2

      Actually, the EPA. Corn growers lobby the EPA, the EPA lobbies Congress, Congress enacts subsidies.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    12. Re:And everyone's fuel mileage goes down. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ... in response to lobbying by...

      Corn subsidies are not a result of lobbying, they are a result of electoral politics. They primarily benefit sparsely populated red states which have disproportionate power in the Senate. No red state senator can possibly get elected by supporting a free market for farm products. Blue state senators are happy to cave in, because it doesn't really cost all that much, and they can horse-trade the subsidies by tacking them on as an amendment to other bills. Also, corn subsidies benefit some blue states too, such as Illinois.

  2. You can thank the agriculture lobby for this. by thomn8r · · Score: 5, Interesting
  3. and when their ethanol by FudRucker · · Score: 2

    starts messing up fuel systems in cars & trucks, then what? they already did that once and had to cut back on the percentage of ethanol put in gasoline,

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  4. Do you still call something a dilemma.... by mark-t · · Score: 3, Insightful

    .... when it's perfectly obvious how the choice will be made?

    Given the choice between any two options, Trump will invariably choose the one that generates more revenue. Like *absolutely* invariantly.... he might as well be a computer program with a single if statement and a loop.

  5. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by skids · · Score: 2

    Bond interest is already somewhat up this year

    While for personal reasons I am all for higher bond rates, higher bond rates due to concerns over the country's credit rating are not a good thing. It's better if the rates are high because private bond interest rates are also high and providing competition.

    Anyway, any work done to reduce the country's carbon footprint will be undone by Trump simply because he sets so many pairs of his own pants on fire.

  6. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by cryptizard · · Score: 3, Informative

    His proposed tax plan pretty much only reduces taxes for the super rich. The high end of the brackets will have up to 7% decreased marginal rate, while low and middle income families will see somewhere between .5-1% decreased rate unless you are a single parent or have more than two children as a couple, then you could actually pay more taxes. Also if you are a single person with no children making between about $120k-190k you will pay more taxes.

  7. Clearly we have too much land and too few starving by bwanagary · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So let me see if I understand the sheer genius of this move: we're going to be legislated into reducing millions of acres of food crops while millions the world over are starving, reduce those millions of food acres to fuel additives and then burn them to increase greenhouse gasses. Brilliant!

  8. Re: It helps the economy too by Jesus+H+Rolle · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Increasing corn subsidies to red state farmers is a progressive cause? I mean, it could well be. I'm no expert. Still, it sounds like yet another transfer of wealth from the middle class to the rich.

  9. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You strike me as the kind of person who probably believes the Articles of Confederation where a better constitution than the US Constitution.

    But yes, completely destroying the Federal Government and allowing polluters and emitters free reign will just be such a boon to America. Yeah, lots of people will die from environmental poisoning, and climate change will increase its pace, costing everyone huge amounts of money in everything from higher food costs to much higher insurance premiums, but all that really counts is that your ideology wins some sort of weird hypothetical political war.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  10. Bzzzt! Wrong direction! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Ethanol costs more gasoline to make than energy it produces. It decays small engines and breaks things like weedwhackers. It lowers your gas milage. There is no positives at all in ethanol in our gasoline. It should have been banned a long time ago.

    1. Re:Bzzzt! Wrong direction! by LaLLi · · Score: 2

      No positives in ethanol, performance car owners could not disagree more. E85 has much higher octane than gasoline and it has a cooling effect on the engine allowing much higher turbo boost with out risk of premature ignition (knock). So more power with less risk of engine failure. Life is too short to drive a boring car.

  11. Dear EPA.... by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Force gas station to post in HUGE LETTERS the percentage and warnings against using it in cars older than 2003. 15% and higher will cause hell in older cars with shitty ECM's

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  12. Re: At least Trump may actually do some good by Jesus+H+Rolle · · Score: 5, Insightful
    killing the EPA

    American pollution was bad enough that rivers were catching fire. That's why the EPA was created.

    Want to depoliticize the EPA? More power to you. Want to destroy it? That just makes you a shitty human being.

  13. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by boristdog · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are either young, stupid or a troll. Possibly all three.

    I lived before the EPA and the clean air and water acts. I lived near many refineries and factories back in the 60's and 70's. The toxic crap that poured from the smokestacks and drain pipes of these places was horrible. Have you ever seen bright yellow toxic sludge draining directly into a bay? It is not pretty, especially with all the dead sea life floating in it. Cancer rates were astounding, respiratory illnesses were through the roof back in those days.

    So you want to kill the EPA. Go ahead. I no longer live near those places, but you should move there and enjoy what you want. Raise your kids there! It's what your heroes want.

    Idiot.

  14. Re:It helps the economy too by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually, it won't ruin many engines. Certainly none built after the late 90's.

    Most people don't know that the only difference between an eco-fuel ford car and its non eco-fuel badged - is a software setting.

    I used to be one of the people that thought the increased alcohol content would ruin gaskets, hoses, and cylinder walls, but the auto industry has already addressed it years ago.

    Also, for around 150 bucks - most cars can be converted to run on ethanol, e-85, or methanol.

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  15. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by losfromla · · Score: 2

    I agree, roman_mir is a moron.

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  16. Re:It helps the economy too by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 2

    Forgot to link this, if I remember the documentary, i'll post the name .

    https://www.bellperformance.co...

    --
    _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
  17. Re:It helps the economy too by bobbied · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Didn't we try that already? Didn't it just make it harder for the poor to keep a car because it took millions of cars off the road that otherwise would have been useable on the cheap for another couple of years?

    --
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  18. Re: It helps the economy too by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Most big progressive programs transfer money from the poor to the rich. Social Security and Medicare are funded with regressive payroll taxes, and most of the benefits go to old people who tend to be richer than average. A poor black man has a life expectancy of about 69 years, so will typically benefit from SS and Medicare for 4 years. A rich white woman will live to be 82, collecting benefits for 17 years. So she gets more than four times the benefits, despite paying in a far smaller portion of her income.

    ... and the Democrats can't figure out why working class people don't vote for them anymore.

  19. Re:It helps the economy too by Woldscum · · Score: 3, Informative

    Outboard boat motors, Chainsaws, String trimmers, Lawn Mowers, ATVs, Jet Skis, Snowmobiles, Motorcycles, etc.... None of them were designed to run on ethanol.

  20. Re:It helps the economy too by rgbatduke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Damn skippy. If they are going to do this, they need to start -- start -- 3 to 5 years ahead by requiring ALL small motors to be built so that they can run on ethanol. And bear in mind that there are other problems with ethanol-laced fuel, the biggest one to my own experience being that it sucks water right out of the air and into your fuel tank. Alcohol is hydrophilic. Gasoline is hydrophobic. Put them together and you get the worst of both worlds -- a gas tank that builds up water in the bottom just sitting there in normally humid air.

    Then there are the various parts in small motors that dissolve in ethanol.

    Could this all be fixed? Sure, I imagine so. Not so sure about how the water issue can be fixed, but at least the engines can be designed not to break if you use ethanol either for timing reasons or because your fuel system turns into sludge while it operates. But they're not. So I'm left having to pay for no-E gasoline at a premium price from one of the few stations that carry it just to mow the lawn, run my chainsaw, run my boat, etc. This isn't just about cars.

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    Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
  21. Re:It helps the economy too by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wait, a 30% reduction in MPG is what we get when going to E85? So everyone's fuel bills increase 30% and we burn 30% more fuel... And this is good why?

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  22. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    Many of these people have been happily voting in Republicans for years, if not decades, thus being party to their incomes being redirected to the wealthiest, so how could they meaningfully object now?

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    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  23. Re:It helps the economy too by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 2

    For that stuff, its now worth it to go down to the hardware store, and in the lawn section, they have ethanol-free fuel in cans. they also have pre-blended fuel for trimmers and chainsaws, the stuff that needs the oil mixed fuel. I've used them, and they run much, much better on it than E85.

    --
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  24. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by roman_mir · · Score: 2

    I disagree with your reading of my comment, I would prefer if the government could actually stick to the Constitution and only do the very little bit that it allows the government to do. AFAIC there shouldn't be a Federal reserve bank, which is a political ploy to monetise Treasury debt. There shouldn't be any form of business regulations, any form of government involvement in labour, business, health care, insurance, education, energy, transportation, communications.

    What I see as a *legitimate* role of government defined in the Constitution is protection of the borders from invasion, however given how the government behaved over the last 100+ years at this point I think it cannot even be trusted with that simple enough role.

  25. Re:It helps the economy too by Mashiki · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Actually, it won't ruin many engines. Certainly none built after the late 90's.

    Well you can get additives to add to cars for lead-only engines, and cars that can't use ethanol or methanol. There's a few cars that require methanol blends for fuel during the 90's "we're insane, let's screw around with shit" period. But this is great, my Saturn built in the late 90's still gets around 42-50mpg best I ever got was 62.7mpg, and that was when the car was only a few years old. Real world mileage with the SL and SW series was generally nothing short of amazing. Which wasn't uncommon with those cars, but now we get to spend 30% more and get less fuel, which is of course brilliant.

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  26. Re: At least Trump may actually do some good by Jesus+H+Rolle · · Score: 2

    You're right about ethanol. The EPA is getting it wrong here, thanks to the farm lobby. Still, the EPA exists for a reason. We need to improve it, not abolish it.

  27. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why would they complain about money being redirected to the wealthy? They're going to be among them when the man stops holding them down.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  28. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by rtb61 · · Score: 2

    To be fair there definitely was one good point, getting rid of the privatised Federal Reserve where those who fund government get government to borrow make believe money from them, literally completely imaginary make believe money and the government has to pay it back with actual real tax payer debt money. Now that should be fraud, not legalised theft by the 1% from the 99%, really is stupendously disgusting stuff and those ass hats have been killing people to keep it the corruption going.

    Getting rid of the EPA, meh, most likely nor more that between 10 and 20 million Americans would die as a result in the next say 10 to 20 years, beyond that, likely the entire US society would collapse in a mire of extremely toxic pollution that would take centuries to clean up. As for paying income tax, there is a sound reasonable way to significantly reduce income taxes, make the government the only legal bank and the gap between interest on deposits and interest on loans would pay a huge percentage of income tax (something of course the corrupt banksters would 'violently' oppose, keep in mind they have demonstrated ties to organised crime, drug dealers, arms dealers et al).

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  29. Re:It helps the economy too by Ranbot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Outboard boat motors, Chainsaws, String trimmers, Lawn Mowers, ATVs, Jet Skis, Snowmobiles, Motorcycles, etc.... None of them were designed to run on ethanol.

    You can also add storage tanks the list.... like those big underground tanks at your local gas station that can leak gas into soils and groundwater when a seal corrodes from the high ethanol content. To be fair, today's tank systems have leak detection systems that usually identify a leak quickly, so they get fixed/remediated quickly, but since new ethanol [and low-sulfur diesel] requirements the number of incidents with tanks has gone up dramatically nation-wide. Tank owners have been too slow to adapt to the new maintenance requirements, seals, filters, etc. needed to safely hold ethanol blended gas in tanks.

  30. Cheaper solution: all electric by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

    A far cheaper solution which helps the economy transition from 17th Century fuels like gasoline, ethanol, and benzene is to just buy a plug-in electric car.

    Ranges tend to go up to 300 miles.

    They work everywhere.

    Maintenance is half that of fossil fuel old grandpa cars.

    Energy cost for an all electric car is either zero (if you put some solar panels or wind turbines on your roof and have any 2000 or more recent building, which in most cities has to be wired and built to handle these by zoning codes) or 1/10th to 1/20th the cost of fossil fuels.

    Adapt.

    The world doesn't owe you whale oil and kerosene users anything. Capitalism is heavily subsidizing your buggy whip industries and it's killing life on this planet.

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    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Cheaper solution: all electric by LaLLi · · Score: 2

      How are you going to recharge all the new electric cars? Do you have any idea how much energy would be needed to recharge electric cars is their numbers would increase dramatically...lucky for US Trump is for cheap fossil fuels so recharge that eco car with coal electricity. Liquid fuels are easy to transport and fast way to recharge lots of energy to vehicles.

  31. How about offering a choice? by Snotnose · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let us buy blended fuel, or pure fuel for more $$$. I'm gonna guess 90% of the consumers will go with the unblended fuel because it doesn't harm their engines (gearheads), gets better gas mileage (coupon clippers), and realize that ethanol is a major waste of money (anyone with half a brain).

    The only reason burning food for fuel is a thing is because Iowa and other farm states ensure they vote early and often in primaries, so those for sale pander as hard as their pandering asses can pander to these 2-3 states. The rest of the country gets the shaft.

    Hopefully Trump will break this. I'm hoping the bull in the china shop will break more bad stuff than good stuff.

  32. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    Except that wasn't the intent of the Framers, not at all. While certainly they didn't likely conceive of the enlargement of the Federal government on the scale even seen by Lincoln's time, they hardly intended the Constitution to be a dead document that reflected only their views. You can see they had even from the beginning at least some intent for a proactive federal government, as the Interstate Commerce Clause makes pretty clear. And since all the things you don't believe the Federal government should have any role in all can, and very often do, become activity between states, the very document you seem to believe should be interpreted Sola Scriptura gives the Federal government the authority to put regulations in place.

    So what you really have here is your own inauthentic view of the Constitution and the proper role of the Federal government, one that, if it really existed at all, was rejected when the Confederacy lost the Battle of Appomattox Court House. But honestly, I doubt even many of the former Confederate politicians would have shared your interpretation of the Constitution, and it is my view that your interpretation is rootless, having no basis in either constitutional jurisprudence or even in the Framer's intentions. They had already had a Federal government of the kind you refer to, the aforementioned Articles of Confederation, and it was a miserable failure.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  33. Re:It helps the economy too by cryptizard · · Score: 2

    No because E85 is about 35% cheaper than gasoline. And, as it says in the article, can have 20-50% fewer emissions per mile over its lifecycle.

  34. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And yet the Constitution does afford the Federal government very wide powers. The IRS and the NSA aren't inherently unconstitutional agencies, even if they have been used in a fashion that many may interpret as unconstitutional. The Federal government has been doing things in ways seen as overreaching, if not outright unconstitutional since nearly the beginning (see the Alien and Sedition Acts). For chrissake, the Slave States seceded from the Union on the argument that Lincoln's election was going to lead to a massive violation of States Rights, and we all know who won that particularly argument, and, I'd argue, paved the way for the modern United States of America.

    The Framers never intended that the Federal government be an impotent wart on the testicles that were the States. Quite the opposite, they had seen how an impotent Federal government in the form of the Articles of Confederation was inherently unstable and could have lead to the US flying apart, so they created a constitution that, while recognizing that internally the States did have considerable rights to oversee their own affairs, did not enjoy the sort of absolutist rights "purists" (by which I mean modern revisionists with little interest in anything the Founding FAthers may have intended) seem to believe. The Interstate Commerce Clause grants the Federal government vast powers over everything that crosses state lines (as you will note things like pollution do).

    Further, if you read why the Articles of Confederation were such a failure, it was precisely because the Federal government had no power to tax, and relied upon the states, who became notorious rather quickly for not paying up, and it lead to serious currency issues. Then factor in that the idea of a central bank was first proposed by Alexander Hamilton, and the Bank Bill was passed in 1780 for the precise purposes of creating a Federally-controlled national bank to create stability.

    What I'm guessing here is you know very little of the history of the UNited States, but have bought into a revisionist view as to what the Framers of the constitution and the earliest iterations of the Federal Government did to actually build a nation capable of not only sustaining itself, but enlarging its territorial and economic powers many times over. The US wouldn't exist as you recognized it if the Federal government didn't possess rather significant powers, including the powers of taxation, of having a central bank, and of being able to monitor and deal with enemies foreign and domestic.

    None of that is to say that the Federal government always does right, or that citizens shouldn't demand it abide by the principles laid out in the Constitution. But the Framers were wise enough to create a series of checks and balances. They may not always work, or at least not work perfectly, but the US has endured civil and global wars with its system of government, to become the wealthiest and most powerful polity that has ever existed.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  35. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by Namarrgon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So your solution to corporate pollution is rescind all the regulations that currently prevent them, disband the organisation that enforces those regulations, wait until after the newly-unrestrained corporations have inevitably polluted everything nearby - then hope some nearby affected citizen is willing & and able to fight them in the civil courts (hopefully with sufficient legal resources to match the corporate legal team), then winning convincingly enough to a) stop them polluting, b) force them to clean everything all up & fully compensate any affected parties (possibly for decades to come - assuming they don't go bankrupt beforehand), and c) recover all legal costs on top of all that. Then go through the whole process again the next time some random company decides it's cheaper to pollute.

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  36. Re: It helps the economy too by ClickOnThis · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You do have a point. (I found your numbers here.)

    However, I would like to see whether the rich recoup their contributions to the program in time-adjusted dollars, even allowing for their longer lifespan. I would guess the answer is no, and I'm fine with that BTW.

    Also, the tax is progressive not regressive, because those with larger incomes pay more. And while Social Security benefits are based on contribution amounts, Medicare is not.

    But the most important thing to address is why poor black males have such a shorter life expectancy than other groups. I suspect it's because of a disproportionate exposure to societal risks (violence, etc.) and that's disturbing.

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    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  37. Re: It helps the economy too by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

    Also, the tax is progressive not regressive

    No. It is regressive. Progressive tax does not mean the rich pay more, it means the rich pay more as a percentage of their income.

    But the most important thing to address is why poor black males have such a shorter life expectancy than other groups. I suspect it's because of a disproportionate exposure to societal risks (violence, etc.) and that's disturbing.

    Counterproductive social programs make all these problems worse. Poor communities not only have shorter lifespans, but also higher birthrates. That means they are, on average, much younger, which means a much smaller proportion of a poor black community will be receiving government checks compared to a rich white community, while more of their income is drained away to pay for those programs.

  38. Re:It helps the economy too by Woldscum · · Score: 2

    Think about Outboard Motors and Snowmobiles. You are literally in a life or death situation. I spent a LONG night in a boat tied up to a offshore oil platform 45 miles offshore in the Gulf of Mexico. The engine fuel line deteriorated and tiny pieces of rubber clogged the carburetor jets.

  39. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    You're so out to lunch, you're not even wrong.

    A couple of observations:

    1. The slave states did not secede because them thar evil Yankees wanted to end slavery within their borders, they seceded because they were losing the argument that the Western Territory, when it was carved into new states, should have an equal measure of slave states. They did this because within a few decades there would have been enough free states to push through an amendment abolishing slavery. Lincoln himself said that he would have retained slavery to end the Civil War, but would he would not do was allow slavery to be propagated beyond the states that already allowed it.

    2. FDR didn't take office until 1933, by which time the depression was nearly four years on.

    3. The Depression was caused by a lot of things, including a shitty gold-based currency, which the US wisely walked away. To blame the Federal Reserve alone is absurd.

    It's hard to tell why you think you know so much when you don't even know the fundamentals of US history.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  40. Re:It helps the economy too by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 2
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    _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
  41. Wealth had nothing to do with constituton by aepervius · · Score: 2

    The wealth of the USA came to be because 1) mostly they got free land for no cost with load and load of resources which were unexploited 2) they were isolated, so some stuff like world war, impacted the US far less than other country on which invasion and bombing was done (and thus needed reconstruction).

    Both those factors are what led to the US enormous wealth. Other countries, neither had those opportunities of resource, nor were spared by the war of 1870Ies, 1910ies, 1930ies.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  42. Re:At least Trump may actually do some good by roman_mir · · Score: 2

    OMG, I don't have to make anybody do absolutely anything! Free market is literally one single property: absence of government regulations, nothing else.

    There is nothing else in the entire concept of free market, all that it is - it's absence of government regulations. WTF do you think it is?

    I don't need anybody to do X or Y or Z, the only thing that is required is that people do whatever the fuck they want and there is no government to regulate them, whether in their personal or in their business lives.

    Under those conditions the businesses that cater best to the public desires win and that's what 'free market regulations' are - the winnings go to those, who can satisfy the people's desires the best.

    As to private police force, I am 100% 100,000,000,000,000% on the side of the private property owner protecting his private property with any form of private force from the attack by a mob. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    I am not imagining myself as anything that I am not, I know exactly where I stand and my position never changed on this matter over a number of decades regardless of my personal situation in life.