Linux Mint 18.1 'Serena' BETA Ubuntu-based Operating System Now Available For Download (betanews.com)

BrianFagioli shares his story on Beta News: Feeling fatigued by Windows 10 and its constant updates and privacy concerns? Can't afford one of those beautiful new MacBook Pro laptops? Don't forget, Linux-based desktop operating systems are just a free download away, folks!

If you do decide to jump on the open source bandwagon, a good place to start is Linux Mint. Both the Mate and Cinnamon desktop environments should prove familiar to Windows converts, and since it is based on Ubuntu, there is a ton of compatible packages. Today, the first beta of Linux Mint 18.1 'Serena' becomes available for download.
Here's the release notes for both Cinammon and MATE.

Comments

Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Anonymous Coward]

I develop C++ applications mainly for Linux. I use Visual C++ and Xcode (I got accustomed to it after some time) to develop, then I log on Linux to "port" the code with vi, GCC, etc, and add Linux specific features.

Is there a decent GUI for developing on Linux now?

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[lgw]

I develop C++ applications mainly for Linux. I use Visual C++ and Xcode (I got accustomed to it after some time) to develop, then I log on Linux to "port" the code with vi, GCC, etc, and add Linux specific features.

Is there a decent GUI for developing on Linux now?

You can use VS on a Windows machine to build/debug on Linux now. You can also run a light version, "VS Code," natively on Linux - it's free and open source, but I don't know how full-featured it is.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Anonymous Coward]

I looked up the information about VS build/debug functionality for Linux. Thanks a lot!

Wow! How the world has changed..

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[ls671]

Nerdy devs say it sucks, but eclipse does the job for me.

http://www.eclipse.org/downloa...

https://eclipse.org/cdt/

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Dutch Gun]

I develop C++ applications mainly for Linux ... Is there a decent GUI for developing on Linux now?

I assume by "GUI" you mean IDE? I'd try NetBeans. It's mostly known for Java development, but has a decent C++ development module as well. It's perhaps five to ten years behind the state-of-the-art on Windows, but it's certainly quite usable. I'm using it to port my game engine at the moment, as well as an open-source cross-platform C++ library I maintain on GitHub.

Oh, and if you do check it out, make sure to grab it directly from netbeans.org, as the one in packages is often quite outdated. Current version should be 8.1, if I'm not mistaken.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there a decent GUI for developing on Linux now?

Oh I don't know, I think emacs is decent. I guess your question is rather subjective.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Humbubba]

Anonymous Coward wrote

... I log on Linux to "port" the code with vi, GCC, etc

Just Curious, Tried LLVM (Clang)? If so, what do you think?

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[fahrbot-bot]

Is there a decent GUI for developing on Linux now?

Sure: XEmacs

A co-worker has used Code Blocks (www.codeblocks.org and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...) and it seems okay.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[ls671]

Yeah! Nice one! emacs all the way like it was intended to be in the first place!

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use JetBrains new cross platform C# IDE "Rider"
It is on open EPA at this moment.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or CLion for C++, oops!

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[owlman17]

Try Code::Blocks. It runs on Windows, Linux and Mac.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Anonymous Coward]

> You can use VS on a Windows machine to build/debug [C++ applications] on Linux now...

From the VS Code web site:
"VS Code is a Free, Lightweight Tool for Editing and Debugging Web Apps."

So, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[enrique556]

+1 for Lazarus; (object) pascal is a dog of a language syntax-wise, but the quality of libraries available for lazarus, and the comprehensiveness of the IDE are exceptionally good.

For C++ programming in Linux, I believe the go-to is code:blocks (as already mentioned), but I use CodeLite which is a younger open-source IDE. It's a very feature rich and slick environment for c++1x/y development but has a bit of a learning curve and takes a bit of tweaking to get it to work the way you want. I've used it to port a visual studio c++14 game from windows to linux (yes, it can import VS2015 projects) and like it a lot. I found code:blocks, by comparison, to be clunky and a little outmoded, though I can't remember why. You will probably find a lot more support for Code:Blocks, however, since it's a much older and widely-used thingy.

VS Code for linux is a "lightweight" development environment, which some prefer, but if you're coming from windows, it will seem like a cut-down version of notepad++ by comparison.

TL;DR: I have used CodeLite for c++14 development in linux and prefer it over the given alternatives.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[lgw]

Read more carefully friend. The first option seems to work for him. VS Code is another option.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Yosho]

If you're willing to pay money for an IDE, CLion is fantastic.

If you're not willing to pay money, Qt Creator is also pretty good, and despite having "Qt" in the name it is perfectly good at working on non-Qt projects.

Anybody who tells you to use Eclipse can't be trusted.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[ls671]

and despite having "Qt" in the name it is perfectly good at working on non-Qt projects.

Duh! Then again, although eclipse has java in its name, it doesn't mean it has to be used only for java projects. Are you really up to an argument with one of the oldest company on this planet (e.g. HAL)?

Eclipse works fine...

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Yosho]

Then again, although eclipse has java in its name

... No it doesn't. If you're going to try to make a useless semantic argument, at least get your semantics right.

Eclipse works fine...

If you don't mind massive memory consumption, painfully slow auto-completion, random crashes, and awful CMake support, sure. Have you ever actually used CLion or Qt Creator?

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider Eclipse CDT (C Development Toolkit).

Yes, Eclipse is a behemoth and it works best with Java, but the C/C++ support in it has been improving over the years, and I now use it exclusively for my own C++ work. It is actually one of the more direct equivalents of MSVS on Linux (and other platforms).

You might also want to check out the comparison of IDEs page on Wikipedia.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[Anonymous Coward]

Qt Creator is a general IDE (not only for Qt) and I like it better than VS, both in Windows and Linux.

Re:Visual Studio C++ equivalent?

[yokljo]

I agree. Qt Creator starts really fast, and lets you navigate C++ code quickly with Ctrl+Click/F2 to go to the definition, F4 to switch between C/H files, Alt+Left/Right to go to previous cursor locations, inter-file refactoring of names, and when there is stuff on the screen you don't want, you mash Esc until it all goes away.

Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

I've noticed a trend, not only on Slashdot but elsewhere, that in trying to get people to use desktop Linux distros a lot of the advocacy is based on what Windows (specifically Windows 10) is doing in terms of telemetry, reduction of control over the operating system and what not, and basically elements of Windows, and NOT about how Linux is better in specific ways. In other words, the advocacy is less showing people what Linux can do for them, but rather to use fear of Windows and telemetry as a means of trying to convert them down the Linux path.

Now sure, people can use whatever reasoning they want to use Linux instead of Windows and if your primary motivation is increased privacy, then maybe that's enough to sway your opinion (regardless of the fact that your Internet access will be monitors all the same even when using Linux so the privacy advantages are all but neutered anyway, but no-one ever mentions that). The problem I have is that the advocacy is all about bashing the opposition, and saying how Linux doesn't have things that Windows does. It's rarely about what it does better, if anything that the average user would care about. It's negative marketing and it stinks.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[OrangeTide]

I think the best way for someone to start using Linux is to install PuTTY on a Windows machine and buy a virtual server (linode, chunkhost, whatever). Setting up a server to do something practical is way more rewarding than wrestling with a desktop system.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[smooth wombat]

Setting up a server to do something practical is way more rewarding than wrestling with a desktop system.

Because setting up a sever involves no wrestling whatsoever. It's just click, click, click and done.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[ls671]

3,2,1 systemd ;-)

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[chipschap]

I've noticed a trend, not only on Slashdot but elsewhere, that in trying to get people to use desktop Linux distros a lot of the advocacy is based on what Windows (specifically Windows 10) is doing in terms of telemetry, reduction of control over the operating system and what not, and basically elements of Windows, and NOT about how Linux is better in specific ways.

That's an interesting point, and much of the anti-Linux pro-Windows marketing targets that very point, by emphasizing what Windows can do which Linux cannot. (It will inevitably be vertical apps, high-end gaming, high-end features in things like PhotoShop, etc.)

Of course, the real draw (for many of us) with Linux is the concept free as in beer and especially free as in freedom. And with Windows 10 becoming the spyware of the millenium, there are people looking for alternatives. So a certain amount of what is, as you state, negative marketing, seems justified.

But you're right, it's not sufficient in and of itself. Users have to be able to do whatever it is they need to do. Linux has come a very long way in that regard, to the point at which in my own work I need Windows for ---- absolutely nothing at all. Those of us who are Linux fans need to promote that angle.

For instance, I always cite the use case of my wife, who uses the Linux installation I set up for her, and neither knows nor cares what OS she's using --- she can do email, Facebook, photos, documents, on-line games, etc. and that's all that matters to her. I suppose I should be more forward in promoting my own use case, namely writing and publishing and doing related analysis.

Linux has a strong case: a lot of functionality, end-user ease of use easily on a par with Windows, and the aforemention Very Big Deal: free as in freedom and beer.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. go to a web host, put in your credit card numbers and a few clicks and you ARE done.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

You are completely out of touch concerning the average users.

None of them are going to take the time and hassle to switch to Linux because it's "better".

Fear is about the only motivator available to get them to make the change.

You need to get out and hang with average users once in a while, but be prepared to cringe a lot.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I switched to Linux Mint for several reasons, not the least of which was the telemetry.

Mint has been an outstanding OS for me on my laptop, I never boot into Windows on it anymore. Not for close to a year I think.

I recently went to Cambodia for a few weeks and took my laptop. I was able to do everything I needed- mail, video, Skype, remote access, etc. No need to boot into Windows, which I thought I might have to do. One of my niche apps, a little Windows cardfile app called AZZCard, works fine under Wine. I've been looking at native Linux replacements for it but haven't settled on a single cardfile app yet.

But yeah, Mint works very, very well for me. Everything works perfectly- sound, video, wifi, USB devices, everything.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[OrangeTide]

Well theoretically you have to install the services you want. "apt-get install nginx" or whatever. Then edit the config files for a few minutes and poke around at the logs for a few hours to figure out why it's not working.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[stasike]

I switched to the Mint Linux at home in 2008 because my FreeBSD 4.xy and later PC-BSD was getting hard to keep up-to-date at that time. The main issue was flash plugins for browsers and suchlike. At that time I had problems running newer versions of FreeBSD on my computer built from quite a few salvaged parts, and I was too poor/frugal to purchase a new PC.
Just like with FreeBSD, Mint Linux was a love at first sight. Much more to my taste than other Linux distributions that I kept testing.

So, for some of us it wasn't the dislike of Windows, but love for Unix.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[butzwonker]

I'm using MacOS, Windows and Linux for a long time, though mostly Linux for work and programming nowadays, and I'd say the reason is that Linux is not particularly better than Windows in many respects. It's mostly different. I've had no weird update problems on Linux ever (maybe I was lucky), in contrast to many update problems and rollbacks in Windows. But there are many other problems on Linux and I've often had to twiddle around with configuration files in /etc to fix things. Overall, both operating systems are fairly stable.

Privacy, free (as in 4 freedoms), and controlled updates are indeed big selling points for Linux. Who wants to use a developer machine that connects to 100+ servers owned by another company without any control by the local administrator?

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[AthanasiusKircher]

I agree with what the parent says here, but two other basic issues I'd point out in terms of "how Linux is better" are:

(1) Choice. I'm not talking about distros necessarily, which sometimes seem to fragment the Linux community unnecessarily. I mean just choice in general about what to install, how to manage it, how to use it, etc. I've definitely noticed a trend in software over the past 15 years or so to HIDE or outright DISABLE more and more choices.

Linux is sometimes criticized for TOO much choice -- too many configuration options, etc. But there are, well, choices in Linux (distros, desktop choices) that hide a lot of that stuff if you want. But if you WANT to be a "power user" and configure exactly what's on your system and how it works, you can.

(2) Support for lesser hardware. To me, this is a HUGE deal, because there are loads of cheap computers (both desktops and laptops) today that you can get for a few hundred bucks, sometimes less. And they're perfectly functional for the basic stuff that most people do 95% of time -- email, web browsing, basic documents, etc. Compared to hardware specs computers of 10 or 15 years ago that did the same stuff, they are hugely advanced, and a large number of people who don't do significant processor-heavy tasks simply don't need more.

But often these cheap computers come with the latest Windows release and other bloated software that just serves to slow them down. Or, even if they work well for the first year or so, various "updates" and "patches" and just the accumulated crap on a Windows system slow the system to a crawl.

With Linux, I'm able to pull a 10+ year old laptop out of my closet, install a modern, up-to-date OS with up-to-date security patches and support, and it runs well. Yeah, I'm obviously not talking about people who need advanced gaming support or complex video editing or whatever -- but if you just need a basic cheap system, Linux has plenty of options for you.

That's actually where it has shined for friends and family I've recommended it to. They have a computer that's 2 or 3 years old and just seems to be "slow." They ask me for advice for buying a new one -- and I have to tell them. "Well yeah, you COULD get that cheap laptop for only $300, but it's probably going to run slow out of the box. So you might want to spend a bit more." Or, I can just say, "Here -- install Linux, then see what happens." And now their old computer will work for several more years.

To me, that's one of the little-discussed aspects of what makes Linux better for some people. Over the years, it has literally saved me thousands of dollars, just by not having to buy more expensive hardware or upgrade just to run the latest bloat put out by Microsoft. That cost savings alone (even setting aside the cost savings of using free application software, etc. too) is not insignificant.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[Grishnakh]

end-user ease of use easily on a par with Windows

Actually, I have to disagree vigorously with this one. Windows is much more of a pain in the ass than Linux to use, for many reasons. The biggest one that comes to mind is updates. On Linux Mint, they're ridiculously easy: just click on the little shield icon when it's red, then click "install updates" on that window. Minimize and go back to your work. I believe it's also possible to make it fully automatic though I haven't tried that. On Windows, updates will force themselves on you at terribly inconvenient times, and prevent you from using your computer, and will force a reboot, so you lose all your open windows.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[Grishnakh]

Who wants to use a developer machine that connects to 100+ servers owned by another company without any control by the local administrator?

Apparently, most users and developers, judging by how many use Windows and ardently defend it, including on this very site. Most people just don't care about those freedoms, or privacy.

Re: Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree and think its why Hillary lost

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[MrKrillls]

Agreed. My experience with Windows and Linux is that Linux is considerably easier to use, and with fewer "pain points". Updates and installing software are almost effortless with Linux. I get to do updates when I want, and because I do them often, they are small and quick, and my machines stay up to date. With Linux I don't have to deal with forced updates that are huge and slow and bring my machines to a near halt. I have more control.

Re:Unfortunate way to sell Linux on the desktop

[fisted]

The last server I rented was pretty much like that. Click click here, pay there, your root password is hunter2. It came with a preconfigured $distro (i forgot which(*)) all with httpd and some database running, literally turnkey.

(*) All I've used it for was bootstrapping the NetBSD installation

Rolled Back to 17.3

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as the lack of an ATI driver prevents me from running Steam, I will stick with 17.3.

Re: Rolled Back to 17.3

[Anonymous Coward]

the catalyst does not suport the newer versions of xorg-server so you have to back port. the open ati driver is really good though at this point not sure about steam though.

Re: Rolled Back to 17.3

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't even get it to work except in compatibility mode, it doesn't seem to recognize my AMD graphics card. Or if it does, it talks to it wrong or whatever.

Re: Rolled Back to 17.3

[Osgeld]

there's an ubuntu answer

open ati driver is really good though

no, no it's not

Re: Rolled Back to 17.3

[DivineKnight]

Eh, sort of. There's kind of this area (https://wiki.freedesktop.org/xorg/RadeonFeature/) between the oldest ATI and the newest AMD where Hybrid Graphics support still doesn't exist....and for those of us with a muxless discrete GPU (I don't know, every modern laptop with a discrete GPU?), this has been sucking royally for the past 9+ months. See, the discrete GPU needs more than its driver to be loaded: it needs modesetting compiled into it as well (to tell the muxless GPU about the various inputs / outputs that the integrated GPU has, so it can steal them...).

I have a [AMD/ATI] Venus PRO Radeon HD 8850M / R9 M265X that I haven't been able to use under Mint 18. I've heard that more and more support will be added into the AMDGPUPRO driver from AMD for older cards with each release, but nothing for this one as of yet. And no discrete GPU means no games or GPU intense applications.

AMD, it's a laptop. It needs that hybrid-power app. Just give us a working version already, we're miserable as it is.

Re:Rolled Back to 17.3

[unixisc]

That brings to mind something else. Not trolling, but is this a version where Mint has gone to systemd, or is it still based on previous init systems? Anyone?

Re:Rolled Back to 17.3

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. 17.3 is systemd. It seems to work a lot better on Mint that my Fedora install. I believe 17.1 or .2 was the last Upstart version outside of LMDE.

Think of the target audience

[OrangeTide]

If you are on Slashdot and haven't switched to Linux by now, then it seems extremely unlikely that you ever will.

I hope you all enjoy whatever OS you happen to be using today.

Re:Think of the target audience

[h33t l4x0r]

My mouse doesn't feel right on Linux, I would switch if it weren't for that.

Re:Think of the target audience

[Anonymous Coward]

The mouse settings are adjustable. If the GUI way doesn't make it work the way you want, there are plenty of help sites to tweak it.

Re: Think of the target audience

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoooooooosh

Re:Think of the target audience

[bheerssen]

My mouse doesn't feel right on Linux, I would switch if it weren't for that.

Maybe your mouse is just shy. Have you tried introducing it slowly?

Re:Think of the target audience

[caseih]

I have to say I have complained a lot about the mouse on all Macintosh systems I've ever used. Compared to Linux and Windows I find it quite mushy feeling and slow. So I understand how frustrating that is.

I suspect the mouse is not your only reason for not switching, though. If the mouse is really your only reason, it's worth looking fairly deeply into how to correct the mouse tracking to suit your needs. If switching to Linux is important to you, and would provide utility, which I kind of doubt.

And I suspect strongly that most Windows users on Slashdot would never switch to Linux (or to Mac OS X) no matter what MS does. Handily there's a whole litany of Linux shortcomings to use as excuses.

Re:Think of the target audience

[Ol Olsoc]

My mouse doesn't feel right on Linux, I would switch if it weren't for that.

Maybe your mouse is just shy. Have you tried introducing it slowly?

Just make certain you wrap duct tape around it first - you don't want it exploding.

At least that's what I hear you have to to with Hamsters.

Re:Think of the target audience

[Anonymous Coward]

My mouse doesn't feel right on Linux, I would switch if it weren't for that.

Just maybe you can blame the program cat at the core of gnu in all linux distros for bashing away at your mouse! Or maybe you just need to find a less bashful mouse and switch to a distro that uses a c shell? I have not met a cat that does not prefer c food over bashing away at mice for their diner.

Re:Think of the target audience

[Anonymous Coward]

Since their main user base appears to be graphic designers (Apart form those who buy because shiny) it would not be surprising if the default mouse settings were optimized for it.
If that is the case then mouse acceleration is probably turned off.

Re:Think of the target audience

[snookiex]

Wait until you have to recompile your kernel to get your modem working!

Re:Think of the target audience

[nine-times]

If you are on Slashdot and haven't switched to Linux by now, then it seems extremely unlikely that you ever will.

Not necessarily. For some of us, we use Linux in some contexts and would prefer to use it, but there's at least one thing keeping us stuck on another platform. I'll stop using Windows as soon as I'm able, but it just hasn't hit that point yet.

Re:Think of the target audience

[Anonymous Coward]

What's a modem?

Re: Think of the target audience

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir, owe me a keyboard

Re:Think of the target audience

[OrangeTide]

I use Windows at work because of Outlook/Exchange calendar. If my work switched to an iOS only calendar app, then I'd have to get an iPhone/iPad instead of an Android device. If we switched to an X11-only proprietary calendar app that only ran on Solaris, I'd be quite able to use that as well.

I doubt I can say the same about flexibility of my Windows loving co-workers.

Re:Think of the target audience

[Anonymous Coward]

lol, yeah sure

Re:Think of the target audience

[Anonymous Coward]

WHAT SOMEONE IS NOT USING WINDOWS?
Microsoft has locked in HP to provide only Windows. Would you say this is fair? /o\
Dell sells their windows laptop for $699 and their Linux laptop for $999. Why the BIG price difference?

Re:Think of the target audience

[Anonymous Coward]

I know what you mean.
My $56 3-button mouse only has 1-button click like OSx. What gives?

Spec:
cpu: FX-6300 4Ghz [6 cores]
Video Card: RX 460
Display: ASUS 28"
OS: Linux Mint

Re:Think of the target audience

[fisted]

I switched to Linux, but then I switched away from it.

I am posting from a fresh install.

[Anonymous Coward]

I had to make a ext4 partition from windows to get it to use my ssd drive.
Now duel boots windows 10 oem fine.
It seen all my hardware wifi asus x501a I3 USB TP-LINK WDN3200 out of the box.
I used the KDE spin awesome to sum it up.

Re:Warning

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing the point. A 5 year old laptop is a high end Linux laptop.

Re:Warning

[OrangeTide]

Linux is an ideal environment for me, but I'm a Linux kernel developer so I probably don't represent a typical user.

I almost exclusively boot to Linux on my MBP. I like having a laptop with decent 3D acceleration and good Linux support.

Why is BETA in caps?

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean seriously EditorDavid, do you think beta is an acronym?

Re:Why is BETA in caps?

[uvajed_ekil]

I mean seriously EditorDavid, do you think beta is an acronym?

Um, the Mint team called it BETA (in CAPS) on their site, as they usually do, so you could maybe lay off of EditorDavid this time. I've run Mint betas before without problems, but I'm glad they make it clear when a release on their main page is indeed a beta.

Re:Why is BETA in caps?

[fisted]

Why, BETA stands for Before ETA which in turn stands for Estimated Ttime of Arrival. A BETA comes before the release, which is what the ETA refers to. It makes perfect sense.
How do you even survive...?

I don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Every other day, there seems to be a new "operating system" released, always in "beta" (and never leaving that stage)... but it's just a Linux distribution! It's just a bunch of standard junkware slapped together! I don't understand this obsession with making new Linux distros when there already are a billion of them. I'm sitting here wishing there would finally appear a much-needed alternative to the nightmare that has become Windows, but all we have to pick from in practice is a bunch of shitty Linux distros that call themselves "operating systems".

I guess a lot of geeks always wanted to make their own OS, but didn't know how, and now they get to claim that they have done it, but really, it's just the standard FOSS repackaged in yet another incompatible way. Like public domain monster movies from the 1930s. It's sickening.

Please let me escape this computer Hell that is Windows and Linux, and give me a proper OS that actually had thought put into it and isn't a walking security and privacy nightmare. And which actually can run stuff.

Re: I don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac OS???

Re:I don't get it.

[uvajed_ekil]

Every other day, there seems to be a new "operating system" released, always in "beta" (and never leaving that stage)... but it's just a Linux distribution! It's just a bunch of standard junkware slapped together! I don't understand this obsession with making new Linux distros when there already are a billion of them.

If you want to sound crotchety and whiny, that's up to you. But you are completely wrong here, since Mint has been around for about ten years and is an excellent operating system with a great team and professional lead developer, not "junkware slapped together." I don't agree with one of the bigoted political stances Mint head Clem has taken in the past but I've been running it for 9 years and fully understand why it is one of the most popular and respected distros (and he's kept quiet about his hate for Israel in recent years). You can be lazy and let MS run your computer and data if you like, but that doesn't mean there aren't 10-20 really good Linux distros out there completely ready for prime time, beta or otherwise.

Re:I don't get it.

[rahvin112]

Except for the unpatched kernel vulnerabilities because they keep using an out of track non-LTS kernel. Maybe that's changed since the last big kernel exploit that went unpatched for 18months on Mint but the project has an atrocious record on security and no matter how much you like it you shouldn't ignore the warts it's got.

Re:I don't get it.

[uvajed_ekil]

Except for the unpatched kernel vulnerabilities because they keep using an out of track non-LTS kernel. Maybe that's changed since the last big kernel exploit that went unpatched for 18months on Mint but the project has an atrocious record on security and no matter how much you like it you shouldn't ignore the warts it's got.

I'll take the warts and security vulnerabilities that Mint has versus all of the problems Windows has, especially for a desktop system. Of course I wouldn't run Mint on mission-critical enterprise servers, but that isn't the target market, and no one with major infrastructural concerns needs the simplicity of Mint, either. It isn't perfect, but Mint is a viable alternative to M$ for the average (or slightly above) home user.

Re:I don't get it.

[fisted]

*BSD

Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[xonen]

After many years of Ubuntu use as primary desktop, the thing that drove me away was ending the support for the closed source AMD video drivers.

Someone decided that the open source drivers were 'good enough'. Well, they are not, at least for what i was doing. And the choice to use the drivers as released by AMD was removed, and doing so manually anything but trivial, as in, you'd have more luck on an arch based distro.

Imho, Ubuntu, and all derivatives like Mint, suddenly alienate half their user base with that decision. And if this wasn't an online forum i'd use stronger wordings for that.

Also, i just need to get work done. And most of the stuff i do is reasonable platform-agnostic but expects reasonable 3D performance. So, i'm back to windows 10 which serves my need, ironically has Ubuntu user land built in these days, and Linux will have to wait until i upgrade my graphics to nVidia, or when i can be bothered to try another distro, or when open source graphics drivers are really of comparable quality, whichever come first.

* Just 2 cents from a frustrated ex-Ubuntu&Mint user on the desktop. *

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[realmolo]

Don't feel bad. Windows is just a *better OS for the desktop* than Linux. And it's starting to look like that well NEVER change.

Linux is just so...unfinished. All kinds of things that are easy in Windows are difficult in Linux.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Stomper_Stoddard]

I agree, Windows is a better desktop OS than Linux and it always will be. Windows was built to be first and foremost a desktop OS and that is what it does best. Linux is not and never will be specifically a desktop OS, Linux is a development platform and one of the many things we happen to use it for is a desktop OS.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Ramze]

I'm not sure I follow. Ubuntu will let you install the proprietary drivers and will let you file bug reports for issues, but if the close-sourced driver is found to be the culprit, they'll refer you to AMD... because AMD is the only one with the source code, and thus the only ones able to help you fix the bug. That's about as much support as one could ask for.

The open source drivers are the default install, but you certainly can replace them with the proprietary closed source drivers.

Here's the How To from Ubuntu for the most recent 16.04 LTS:
https://help.ubuntu.com/commun...

As for the open vs closed source quality, recent benchmarks show that the MESA 13 drivers are pretty close to the closed source ones for most chipsets, but it's still a tiny bit high on the latency. I doubt you'll ever get parity until/unless AMD phased out the closed source drivers by fully opening the source code. There's probably some things in there they license and/or don't care to share with competitors, though.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[AthanasiusKircher]

After many years of Ubuntu use as primary desktop, the thing that drove me away was ending the support for the closed source AMD video drivers.

What does this have to do with Ubuntu? AMD ended their support.

Someone decided that the open source drivers were 'good enough'. Well, they are not, at least for what i was doing.

Yep, that "someone" was AMD. They apparently decided to focus more on a new Linux driver project, as noted in the posts from AMD folks quoted in the above link. Ubuntu isn't able to offer "support" for a closed-source driver that apparently breaks with the newer versions of Xorg. (I'd note that AMD had months to prepare before the new version of Ubuntu upgraded to the newer version of Xorg, and it's been a year or more and AMD hasn't updated their driver.)

And the choice to use the drivers as released by AMD was removed

Because it might break your system.

Imho, Ubuntu, and all derivatives like Mint, suddenly alienate half their user base with that decision.

How was it Ubuntu's fault (let alone Mint's, who didn't do anything here) that AMD stopped updating their drivers for Linux? Ubuntu and its derivatives aren't the only distros that this created problems with -- anyone who is using a version of Xorg released in the past year will have the same problem. And since Xorg is standard across most Linux distros, this truly has nothing to do with Ubuntu (or Mint) per se.

So, i'm back to windows 10 which serves my need

Yep -- AMD decided to update their drivers for the latest Windows version. Ubuntu can't do so, because they don't have the source code.

Why are you angry at Ubuntu when the people who stopped the support are AMD?

I don't mean to sound insulting, but you do understand what the implications of "closed-source driver" are, right? Ubuntu would likely be happy to provide support and updates if they had the source code... but they don't, and AMD won't release it.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that he says "until i upgrade my graphics to nVidia", which is also a closed source driver.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[xonen]

And why, as end-user, do i care this? I need something that works. A newer version of xorg was apparently more important to drivers compatibility for the package maintainers. For me as user it was the other way around. And it is not trivially possible with Ubuntu to use an older version of xorg.

To elaborate on that: somewhere along the road the xorg developers decided to break something. How hard is it to design something and keep it (forward) compatible? Apparently for xorg very hard. I totally am ready to believe they had their reasons to do so, but you simply cannot expect all other involved developers to run behind them, within months, if they make make a change breaking stuff, totally ignoring the significant amount of testing the AMD developers would have to do. And surely the AMD developers still get the blame simply because they are 'closed source'.

From an idealistic stance of view, you are totally right. In an ideal world those drivers would be open source. From a practical stance of view, developers all over the world, both open and closed source, are hands tied down on license or agreements. And users just want something that works, not necessarily the latest greatest shiniest.

In case of Ubuntu 16.04 the AMD user is left in the cold, no matter who to blame. And this is why people who say 'Linux will never be ready for the desktop' are proven right. I did, and do, use and love Linux but in all fairness it has been a constant struggle, swimming upstream, because design decisions like those are not made from a user stance of view, and because i do not want to dedicate my life to the OS running on my computer. I just want to use my computer.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why as an end user should you care? Well, would you go into McDonalds complaining about the quality of the Whopper you bought? Because that's what you're doing. Ubuntu doesn't supply it, and as such doesn't provide support. The comparison is apt. Your complaint is with AMD, not with Conical. You may choose to avoid Ubuntu because of AMDs lack of support, but at least bitch to/about the correct entity.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[AthanasiusKircher]

And why, as end-user, do i care this? I need something that works.

I completely understand your frustration. I was only pointing out that it may be misdirected.

A newer version of xorg was apparently more important to drivers compatibility for the package maintainers.

Probably because this was an LTS release. Ubuntu was forced to make a call about whether to include a newer, better-featured version of Xorg or support an older one for the next 5 years.

To elaborate on that: somewhere along the road the xorg developers decided to break something. How hard is it to design something and keep it (forward) compatible? Apparently for xorg very hard. I totally am ready to believe they had their reasons to do so, but you simply cannot expect all other involved developers to run behind them, within months, if they make make a change breaking stuff, totally ignoring the significant amount of testing the AMD developers would have to do.

Do you think other hardware companies make such excuses when Microsoft releases the next Windows version and stuff breaks? No, they are happy to provide support for their own devices. Also, the "months" thing is disingenuous -- the prospective changes to Xorg were likely known before this: that's just the date after the final version of Xorg was RELEASED.

But just take a second and consider what the implications of your proposal are. You complain that the developers for hardware should not be required to support their own products for some OSes because it's excessive work, but you have no problem asking the Canonical developers to spend the next 5 years supporting a deprecated version of Xorg on an LTS release, just over a video driver that will likely be obsolete in a year or two?

I'm absolutely sure that the Canonical developers didn't want this stuff to break, but they had to make a call on providing the best service for their product overall for the next 5 years.

In case of Ubuntu 16.04 the AMD user is left in the cold, no matter who to blame.

Okay, I might agree, but you clearly have strong feelings about who to blame.

And this is why people who say 'Linux will never be ready for the desktop' are proven right.

What you have proven is that developers for closed-source drivers are unwilling to provide the same resources for supporting Linux as they are for Windows. This fact was and is well-known. Linux does the best it can at spending HUGE amounts of trying to reverse engineer software to provide support for this kind of hardware, because the closed-source folks don't share their info.

If Linux could spend all the time they put into developing and maintaining reverse engineered drivers into actually MAINTAINING decent drivers based on specs direct from the manufacturers, Linux would likely have significantly better hardware support than Windows.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

And the solution was to wait on 14.04 until the new driver become available from AMD, being closed source it is up to them to do it...

cough, ohh wait, what's this?

http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/AMD-Radeon-GPU-PRO-Linux-Beta-Driver%E2%80%93Release-Notes.aspx

Also fully supported in 16.10

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[xonen]

Well, you are right on most things, just this purist view brings the user nowhere. It's the old 'in an ideal world all lawyers would be jobless'...

And the example of windows is very wrong. A tonload of drivers for windows 7, hell, even drivers for vista and XP, just work on the latest windows 10. Simply because they have a well defined driver model. A thousand reasons to dislike Microsoft, but their driver model is not one of them.

It is not only a matter of developer resources. It is also that Linux is still a 'wild west' where anything that works might change in any newer version. And while the kernel maintainers have recognized this issue and proven a more stable ABI since kernel 2.6, some arbitrary projects still have a very egocentric view of the world.. Not to mention the zillion different distro's out there. Even the most well-willing hardware providers (and don't say that AMD and Intel and others aren't as they all showed tremendous effort) run against this wall of chaos...

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

As I understand it AMD dropped the old set of drivers to work on a new driver stack, The plan being to include the new drivers as soon as they are ready.
This leaves you with a few options.

1) Temporarily live with a loss of functionality.

2) Don't upgrade *buntu till the new drivers arrive.

3) If you really nead all the 3d features and stability sell your AMD Hardware and replace with nVidia. Brand loyalty is good and all that, but if you need the features want performance and graphics card stability comparable to what you get with Windows and you want to use Linux, nVidia has by far the best offer on the table. I am hoping that with new driver architecture that AMD closes that gap somewhat as it would be nice to have real choice.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[uvajed_ekil]

Right, having no control over updates or what your OS is doing behind your back sure makes Windows great. I don't know what you're trying to do, but just about everything I can do in Windows works great in Mint, too. Or were your comments made in jest?
Gaming is the one exception, though Linux has caught up a tiny bit. PC games are still superior to consoles, but the fact that so many titles are console-only, as well as the overall simplicity factor, makes choosing an Xbox One or PS4 over an expensive PC an easy choice for most people.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[AthanasiusKircher]

Note that I didn't claim drivers do break on Windows upgrades, only that hardware developers would happily fix things if they did... Because otherwise no one would continue to buy their hardware. I completely understand the pragmatism. And yeah, the bewildering array of distros is a pain, but this is support for Xorg for video stuff... So I'm not sure that's relevant to the present case.

Look: I'm not an idealist by any means. I get exactly why it's a pain to support Linux. But I started replying in this thread to someone who was blaming Ubuntu and Linux Mint for AMD not supporting a new version of Xorg. To me, that's a completely BS argument. Get mad at AMD. Even get mad at the Xorg Devs. But this is nominally a thread on Linux Mint -- why the heck are we even having this discussion??

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu users are the newbies of the Linux world. They might even have a couple of years under their belt, but they don't understand the Linux world because they haven't been exposed to it yet. Ubuntu's awesome marketing arm makes all Linux appear to be Ubuntu.

I feel for this guy, because he lost the driver he used; but, the target of his ire is wrong. Even so, he wouldn't be the first person to lash out at the wrong target after losing something.

Re: Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Type44Q]

Windows is just a *better OS for the desktop* than Linux

Of course it is; that's why this MCSE's been running Mint exclusively for nearly a decade...

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Greyfox]

Oh God, I remember years of frustration with AMD drivers, on both Windows, Linux and OSX systems. On the OSX box (2005 or 2006 Mac Pro Desktop,) the card wouldn't spin its fans up when it was overheating, causing it to literally self-destruct with Apple's stock configuration. Their graphics cards have been on my do-not-purchase list for a solid decade! If I blamed every OS because of the experience provided by AMD's shitty drivers, I'd still be running CP/M! Nvidia may be a bunch of cocks, but at least they seem to be able to build some frustration-free drivers!

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

oh shut the fuck up already.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[nine-times]

What does this have to do with Ubuntu? AMD ended their support.

In fairness, I don't read him as saying that it's Ubuntu's fault. He's saying that the drivers for his graphics card became insufficient. Even if it's AMD's fault, it's still a problem that may impact some users.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry for the drive-by commenting, but Windows Driver model is absolute garbage. WDDM 1.1 and 1.0 literally broke previous support from XP forward. Trying to use unsigned drivers requires putting Windows into safe mode and disabling registry options before Windows would even let you install the drivers, not that they would work. If you have driver support on Windows 8 or 10 you're lucky, as it was the most common problem people had when people were bamboozled into updating.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. My main computer at home (a desktop) is on Mint 17 and I can't upgrade to 18 because of the AMD graphics issue. Fortunately support continues for a while but when it ends I'll have to decide where to go:
-MX linux is Debian-based and doesn't include systemd. It's worked pretty well on a laptop for me so far.
-CentOS and its derivatives run on the servers I handle for work, so maybe going to "the Red Hat way" altogether is a practical choice. I'm playing with CentOS 7 as a desktop in a VM right now, to see how well it handles desktop-y stuff (you need to use third-party repositories, but it seems to be workable).

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[MrKrillls]

"All kinds of things that are easy in Windows are difficult in Linux."

I see it the other way around. All sorts of things are easy in Linux that are difficult in Windows at least for me - installs, adding software, updates. It's enough to keep me using Linux very happily, with zero desire to use Windows. That's not to say Windows is bad - just that Windows is not what I want to use.

Re:Ubuntu makes to much decisions for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought a Radeon 5450 shortly before the ugprade to 18 and in that case, the loss of proprietary drivers is permanent. Ditto for e.g. AMD A8-6400K, a semi-recent CPU with built-in Radeon 5000/6000 hardware. Ditto for E-350, another CPU with Radeon 6000 hardware. There just will never be newer proprietary drivers for Radeon 5000 and 6000 series, ever.

I wanted something low power/silent but with the ability to do dual VGA, at least just in case. Hadn't the money for a geforce GT630 with the Fermi GPU, nor for a GT710 (Kepler)... (the latter does single VGA, but hdmi-to-VGA adapter can be used)

At least the computer is working but it sucks a bit. I just want to play a few old or undemanding games, want to try PlayOnLinux but can't bother for now. For this purpose the graphics driver is more important than the raw hardware's performance or features.

AMD currently requires an advanced GPU architecture, "GCN 1.2" or higher, to get the new driver working out of the box on Ubuntu 16.04 and Mint 18. That means Radeon R9 380 (overpowered and expensive for me), Radeon RX460 (well above 100 euros and no VGA), or the upcoming APU on AM4 socket motherboard (great if you need the CPU upgrade, VGA converter built into the motherboard, but need to change almost everything except for the hard drives, costs a few hundreds)

Re:Warning

[iggymanz]

speak for yourself but no one else. My laptop runs Linux Mint 17.3, all devices work because it takes 5 minutes of research to find laptops that will work. I don't do games. OpenShot and gimp are good enough media apps for me, vlc for viewing. SageMath works well, it was made for Linux. Spreadsheets with LIbreOffice are fine.

Re:Warning

[Anonymous Coward]

my 5 year old laptop runs 10 just fine and runs the applications I want on top of that

Re:Warning

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, well I guess if you don't do games, are content using a really crappy version of Excel, and are content with a really crappy version of Photoshop, a Linux laptop might be a good idea for you.

Dual boot

[pigsycyberbully]

I now have a Windows 7 laptop, which I use for Adobe Photoshop Elements 14 and Xara Photo & Graphic Designer. I have been flashing my credit card to various companies on the Internet and I have noticed you can pay hundreds of pounds for a program that is absolute crap on Microsoft Windows. I own lots of computers so I don't need to dual boot and if anybody does need to they are on such a tight budget that they cannot afford to run Windows anyway.
I do not like Microsoft Windows but I use it lately just for graphics.

And now for the signature which seems to be doing the rounds on social media and e-mail signatures.

"This posting was monitored by British intelligence and various other government quangos under the new surveillance laws in the U.K., everything we say and do is monitored. We are now a police state a totalitarian state controlled by a political police force that supervises the citizens activities. Speak out do not be frightened."

Lazarus

[Anonymous Coward]

Lazarus - opensource build of Delphi.. full GUI IDE, though of course you have to switch to object pascal (free pascal)..

I get paid as a c# developer, but was a delphi developer (and am a linux user at home) and this is really good tool for easy cross platform development from an open source tool.

http://www.lazarus-ide.org/

But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I play ALL my games, perfectly and without issues, at the same or better framerate?

No? I thought so, do try and sell your free OS some more when at least 75% of every new games coming out, are also ported to Linux, and not just Indie games.

Re:But...

[uvajed_ekil]

Can I play ALL my games, perfectly and without issues, at the same or better framerate?

Nope, and I can't play most of my games on Windows at all, since half of them are only released for dedicated consoles, you silly person!

I've certainly loved some PC-only games over the years, but at this point in my life, spending $2000 every 2-3 years so I can play a handful of worthwhile PC-only games seems like a mistake. When I can buy a $300 console that plays way more good games, and quite a few that have no Windows versions, I can't justify being into PC gaming anymore. I used to be a PC game snob too, but I think I'm done with shelling out the dough for 120 FPS and using a keyboard for games.

Re:But...

[Blaskowicz]

I agree the upgrading gets tiring although $2000 is quite the exaggeration these days. Other way around though, if I can't game it sucks to upgrade the PC just because javascript / firefox runs slow and the video is unaccelerated, but not have any games to show it off.
Eventually, I hope we can get some full blown PC emulator where I can get some Windows 95, 98 or XP running (or even Windows ME) and get old games running 60fps at 800x600 at least. Emulator, not virtualization where nothing 3D accelerated ever works.

Re:Warning

[iggymanz]

and if you pry your head out of Bill Gate's ass the world smells much better. Back to your games, windblows boy

Too many Minty gotchas

[Anonymous Coward]

OTOH why switch from flawless Ubuntu 14.04.x : smoothly runs my Xeon workstation ! However my Ubuntu 16.04.1/MATE for all it's bitching compares well against MINT for "just works" function on my AMD 8350 byte-toy.

Re:Warning

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I use Mint on a 5 year old laptop and it's fine. It's fast, everything works, and I see no reason whatsoever to spend $800 on a Macbook or a new Windows laptop.

Re:Warning

[Ol Olsoc]

For the love of god, don't do this to yourself. Just get a Macbook Air. $800 might be a bit overpriced but Linux = wasted time plus limited programs.

I can't imagine wanting to get an expensive new laptop and putting Linux on it.

Oh meh, Mac is my main platform, Linux second. But There isn't a damn thing wrong with cruising on Linux on a fast laptop. Got my better half high end touchscreen laptop with W8, and after a month she refused to use it. Linux Mint was close enough to what she learned on, and now that it doesn't have the Windows smegma overhead, it flies on Mint. She likes it. She likes the speed of it.That's good enough for me.

It's something you do to an old laptop - you can't game on it, you won't use it for media applications. Linux is either going to be used for a server that needs something faster than the fastest laptop, or is just for dicking around on the web, in which case just get the cheapest thing you can.

Nobody in the world needs/wants a high-end Linux laptop.

Well I'll be damned I am in a conversation with the person who knows exactly what all people want, and what all people do not want. I'll bet the women find you irresistible. You have a newsletter?

So Bullshit - you don't know, you're only a know- it- all. Now buy a PC, you're giving us Mac users a worse name than we already have.

obligatory

[OrangeTide]

What's a mouse?

Re:Warning

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you bummed that you bought a "touch screen laptop," installed Linux, and suddently it worked for shit? Then again, you are the sort of person who makes Simpson references by the second word of a post.

Re:Warning

[kamapuaa]

Exactly! Linux laptops aren't going to be running anything intensive anyway, so just running Linux on a cheap old laptop is fine.

Re: Warning

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey settle down there angry little Linux user. No reason to start insulting people as way to convince them to try a Linux based distro.

Linux Mint, Anecdotal Evidence

[hughbar]

I've used Linux Mint as a desktop for about four years. I still have one Windows 7 system because of Pro Tools, waiting for the day when I can swap to Linux for 'music'. Recently I've introduced my ex (in another country, support more difficult) and a local friend to Mint. There was a little spike in support in the first couple of weeks and now nothing. I used to get several calls per week when they used Windows, so my 'upgrade' was somewhat self-interested.

At the start of this, I needed convincing, quite happy now, not missing Windows at all. I think my desktop 'tank' is about 7/8 years old too. My feeling is, just try, create an extra guest login on one of your machines to show people, show don't tell.

Re:Linux Mint, Anecdotal Evidence

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you describe the current feature gap between Pro Tools and Ardour? I admittedly don't have much experience with audio production, but I've been very happy learning how to use Ardour for music composition.

Re:Linux Mint, Anecdotal Evidence

[hughbar]

Can't help very much, I'm afraid. My main problem (and I haven't tried recently) has been a) drivers for Avid M-Box which have improved now b) specific plugins that I use with Pro-Tools c) Laziness, since I have a lot of hardware hooked up in one place.

I use Audacity on both now, but that's a lot simpler than Ardour.

Incidentally, off-topic, I always enjoy riffling through this: http://linux-sound.org/

Re:Linux Mint, Anecdotal Evidence

[Anonymous Coward]

Paul Davis (and others) have made significant improvements to Ardour over the years. I tried it about five years ago, and then picked it up again about 12 months ago, and it has gotten much better. I haven't used ProTools so I can't give a comparison, but I have heard favorable reports from other people. Also, you can fairly easily use Windows VST plugins via carla-bridge-win32 or carla-bridge-win64, as described here:

https://www.linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?t=13280

You can get the latest Ardour, along with Carla, et. al., from the KXStudio repos:

http://kxstudio.linuxaudio.org/Repositories

Re:Linux Mint, Anecdotal Evidence

[hughbar]

Hi, thanks, over Christmas when I have more time, I'll bite the bullet and move all the cables over. Some of them are even labelled. I have a guitar with a Roland Midi pickup, which makes my life a little more complex than a keyboardist.

Mint 18 Direction

[ytene]

I'm not [yet] sure that Mint 18 is taking us in the right direction...

I am a big fan of the Mint distribution, having switched from ubuntu 12.04 when I read that Mark Shuttleworth and ubuntu were adopting "monetization" of the dash. I have not had reason to look back - until I switched my most-used system to 18.0 earlier this year.

My system is based around an Asus z170 Pro Gaming mini-ITX motherboard, with an Intel 6700T Skylake processor, 16Gb RAM and a 1Tb Samsung SSD. However, after switching from Mint 17.3 to 18.0 [clean installation to a new SSD] I have experienced a range of issues for which I've been unable to get support or resolution. Examples include:-

1. A sound configuration that will reset itself during a session, within a couple of minutes of being set . I want my audio to exit the system via Digital Output (S/PDIF), but each time I boot the system, and usually after about 10-15 minutes of no active audio - the system unilaterally resets the audio channel to HDMI/DisplayPort Built-in Audio...

2. I have an infrequent, but major and annoying system stability issue, in which an attempt to cold-boot my system generates the following:-

[ 1.377121] [drm:i915_gem_init-stolen [i915_bpo]] *ERROR* conflict detected with stolen region:
[0xc6000000 - oxc8000000]
Welcome to emergency mode!

Having seen the drm portion of the message I wondered if this was related to any Intel drivers, so got in touch on the Intel forums. I've been trawling the net looking for help with this for a month now, without joy, although I am beginning to suspect that this specific issue might either be related to systemd, or possibly to the latest Asus firmware.

I've been exceptionally happy with every single edition of Mint that I have tried since 2012, have donated to the project and had generally positive experiences on the forums. Mint is a slick, clean, efficient and it-works-beautifully [as opposed to it-just-works] distribution. However, with the introduction of 18.0, things have started to look just a little flaky. Let's hope that 18.1 addresses these issues!

The interesting/frustrating thing about the issues I've seen is that I am 99.9999% certain that none of them are caused by software developed directly by the Mint project. Rather I am near-certain that they are brought to this release through selected packages, which unfortunately can make isolation and resolution of the more esoteric issues an exercise in patience, persistence and luck. I just hope that Mint continues to develop via evolution and not revolution...

Re:Mint 18 Direction

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of revolution, the worst part about newer Mint releases is the switch to KDE Plasma 5. That stuff is seriously not ready for prime time.
I'm staying on 17.3.

Re:Mint 18 Direction

[rahvin112]

That error is clearly referencing the i915 Intel drivers. I can find many similar calls in the Intel GFX Driver documentation.

My bet is you've got a hardware edge case where your monitor or something is coming up before it's expected and it's not responding to the subsequent request. As was suggested to you on the intel forums you need to make contact with the intel developers and see if they can troubleshoot it. Or if you don't want to waste a bunch of your time you can boot, then reboot after getting the error.

Re:Mint 18 Direction

[Blaskowicz]

18.1 uses the 4.4 kernel, same as 18.0 and Ubuntu 16.04.0 and 16.04.1, so I think you need to wait for 18.2 or mess around with Ubuntu kernel ppa etc.
Ubuntu "LTS enablement stack" is slated to bring Ubuntu 16.10 kernel and Xorg to Ubuntu 16.04, with February 2017 as a proposed release date :
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel...
So you can upgrade 18.1 like that in a semi-supported way, but not now.

In all, 16.04 is a bit of a sucky release. Needs a kernel/Xorg upgrade for Skylake or very recent Intel hardware, would need a downgrade available for AMD Radeon users, and about the only user visible benefit I could really see is GTK3 has improved (damning with a faint praise).
In Mate's file manager, you can middle-click to close a tab. That's a good thing, a tiny new feature that doesn't break anything. Also Mint removed the conflict between gedit 2.x and gedit 3.x, not that I care that much.

Re:Warning

[Zontar The Mindless]

Not half as bummed as I'd be if I failed at reading comprehension half as badly as you do.

Re:Warning

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, well I guess if you don't do games, are content using a really crappy version of Excel, and are content with a really crappy version of Photoshop, a Linux laptop might be a good idea for you.

I'm not the previous AC, but I also don't do games.

In the past I've used Excel, and when I needed features LibreOffice didn't have, I found Excel also lacking (Origin is much better at non-linear regressions, for instance, which I needed often since I was fitting parameters to a function that decayed exponentially). Right now, I use Excel-equivalents as glorified calculators, so LibreOffice is more than enough.

As for Gimp as a replacement for Photoshop, I'd like to know how many here at Slashdot do use Photoshop as a pro-tool. Gimp can as easily play with the curves to adjust brightness, or crop a photo. I use Gimp as a replacement for Microsoft Photo Editor, not Photoshop. Besides, Photoshop costs a ton of money and I don't work professionally with photography. For what I guess most of us do, Gimp is perfectly fine.

Except for games, where Windows undeniably wins, most of the population could move away from whatever they are using in Windows to free alternatives. The reason being they do it at such a shallow level that many free tools fit. Sure, I have graphical designer friends who need Adobe InDesign and Photoshop. But the average Joe these days, puts their photos on Facebook without even correcting the color, straight from the phone. Gimp's no worse, if you're not using anything...

Re:Warning

[Ol Olsoc]

Are you bummed that you bought a "touch screen laptop," installed Linux, and suddently it worked for shit?

Why do you think it "worked for shit"? Linux Mint works perfectly on a touchscreen.

Then again, you are the sort of person who makes Simpson references by the second word of a post.

Stupid sexy Flanders.

Linux Mint Debian Edition

[snookiex]

Sadly, LMDE is not being updated anymore (I mean the releases, not the repositories). Mint is a superb distro, but I really miss Debian on it. I guess I'll have to keep my Debian Stretch for some time.

Re:Warning

[Ol Olsoc]

Not half as bummed as I'd be if I failed at reading comprehension half as badly as you do.

There was a time, years ago, when installing Linux on a computer was a bit of a chore. The search for drivers could be frustrating. But the last time I had that problem was around 8 years ago, and even then, it was because I was installing on a fresh just released out of the gate laptop, and turns out, a driver was available the next day.

The last time I had a problem with a Windows driver? Last month.

The touch screen on my wife's laptop works perfectly. All the functions of the laptop work. And updates do not cause the computer or it's components to stop working. She's very happy with it, and hated W8.X to the point where she refused to use the computer, so AC needs to chillaxe and face the truth, not repeat ancient memes.

Next up for AC? A 15 minute rant on the Apple one button mouse!

Want to use it, but it doesn't work (for me)

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been trying out Mint 18 Cinnamon, but it keeps freezing (in one of two ways). One is with glitches all over the screen. The other looks perfectly normal, and I can move the cursor around but I can't click on anything. Well, I can, but nothing happens. Once it happened with music playing, and it did not interrupt the music, it played until the end.

Googled it. Saw it has been happening for a long time, in 17 too. Nothing I could find really helped me figure out how to fix it though. I want to use it, but I don't have the time to waste on it.

Depends how long you've been on slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

It took me over 5 years of reading slashdot before I switched. I experimented on and off with it until Windows finally bothered me enough to switch. And even then 7 years into Linux I had an affair with OS X on my laptop, it took a couple of OS updates switching around stuff to mess with my daily workflow before I went back for good. I still use mac hardware specifically for Linux when it comes to portables but it looks like now that will change too with their crap soldered-in stuff.

Warning: Contains systemd

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux Mint 17 was the last Mint without systemd.
Ubuntu 14 was the last Ubuntu LTS without systemd.
Debian 7 is the last Debian without systemd.

Beyond these versions, there are dragons.

Devuan 1.0 Jessie (Beta 2) was released last week.

Re: Warning

[iggymanz]

But I want them to continue wasting money on Microsoft and other closed source wares. If BSD and Linux become too common my salary will drop, so fuck 'em.

Re: Warning

[Anonymous Coward]

He was responding to name calling.

Re:Warning

[jon3k]

It's 2016, there's Google sheets is all 99% of people need. Most people aren't "gamers". Less than 1% of people actually use Photoshop. You're dismissing the average user, which makes up the VAST majority of users.

Re:Warning

[Anonymous Coward]

Google Docs is too basic for all but schoolchildren to my mind, but regardless - why get an expensive new laptop and install Linux on it? It's likely to have issues and require time to deal with, and you can't use it for that sort of things you'd want an expensive laptop for.

Jeff