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Amazon Is Secretly Building an 'Uber For Trucking' App, Setting Its Sights On a Massive $800 Billion Market (businessinsider.com)

Posted by msmash on from the there's-an-Uber-for-that dept.

Amazon is building an app that matches truck drivers with shippers, a new service that would deepen its presence in the $800 billion trucking industry, a person with direct knowledge of the matter told Business Insider. From the report: The app, scheduled to launch next summer, is designed to make it easier for truck drivers to find shippers that need goods moved, much in the way Uber connects drivers with riders. It would also eliminate the need for a third-party broker, which typically charges a commission of about 15% for doing the middleman work. The app will offer real-time pricing and driving directions, as well as personalized features such as truck-stop recommendations and a suggested "tour" of loads to pick up and drop off. It could also have tracking and payment options to speed up the entire shipping process.

64 of 97 comments (clear)

  1. Savings by colinrichardday · · Score: 2

    How much of the savings would be passed on to consumers?

    1. Re:Savings by mlts · · Score: 2

      I wonder how much it will help owner/operators and the truck drivers. As it stands now, the truck driving industry is following textiles and meat packing into oblivion, where even a minimal living is tough to do.

    2. Re:Savings by dj245 · · Score: 2

      I wonder how much it will help owner/operators and the truck drivers. As it stands now, the truck driving industry is following textiles and meat packing into oblivion, where even a minimal living is tough to do.

      I wonder how this will affect immigration policies, both in the USA and elsewhere. My company ships heavy industrial equipment and parts regularly. It is quite rare to see a US-born driver for these loads (step deck or flatbed, other types of trucking may vary). The barrier to entry is low- low education or english ability is not a huge barrier, which makes these jobs viable for foreign immigrants. If the driver workforce starts shrinking, and this seems inevitable, foreign immigration of low-skill workers will become an even more important topic than it is now.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    3. Re:Savings by Higaran · · Score: 2

      What do you mean when the driver work force starts shrinking, it has been shrinking for at least 5 years now. It is one of the few industries where you'll get hired almost on the spot as long as you can pass a drug test. The problem, is that it is seen as a low class job, so few people go into it, even though it is better paying than alot of industries.

    4. Re:Savings by fbobraga · · Score: 1

      "and the jobs lost?" - and the jobs created!?

    5. Re:Savings by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Then why would a driver use Amazon instead of the existing third-party brokers? Drivers would be silly to pass on the savings.

    6. Re:Savings by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      operators

      Why are you assuming they're going to roll this out to old fashioned trucks that need a driver?

    7. Re:Savings by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Yes, silly me.

  2. Optimal Tours? by erikscott · · Score: 4, Funny

    It will be cool if they can produce (provably) optimal "tours" for arbitrarily complicated sets of stops. It will be even cooler if they can do it in polynomial time.

  3. So...free or less than 15%? by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >> It would also eliminate the need for a third-party broker, which typically charges a commission of about 15% for doing the middleman work

    So what's Amazon planning to charge to be the new third-party broker? Nothing? Less than 15% Or....

    1. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      More importantly, does Amazon know what brokers are expected to do for that 15%? You can try to "appify" everything but unlike a taxi, trucking actually has some significant legwork done by "dispatch/brokers". Do customers and drivers really want to directly communicate with each other about arrival times, dock bays, etc. and if they do, are customers going to ignore the cost of the extra staff they will have to hire to communicate with the drivers?

      Not to say there is not more streamlining to do in this space but FreightQuote and many other small startups are providing as "slimmed down" of a service as customers are really willing to bare. If the customer wants to use an app they are a) really tiny or b) will see if bringing what amounts to freight brokers in house makes sense vs. outsourcing, which has already been an option for them anyway.

    2. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by Migraineman · · Score: 2

      I was gonna ask the same question, followed by "Don't we already have this kind of infrastructure in-place with the LTL (Less Than Load) freight services?"

    3. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      The plan is to suck up all this data so that eventually their fleet of self-driving trucks can take over the profitable runs.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    4. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by Higaran · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Basically Amazon is going to put up a load board, similar to truckstop.com or many other similar sites. Trucking is pretty much as streamlined as it's going to get, in reality they want to get people to move their freight as cheap as possible, and if they can get some kind of a commission on other freight by being the broker then it's a win for them. Right now Amazon is pretty much going to expand into everything possible because they need to keep expanding, so they will be experimenting with various industries, I wouldn't be surprised if they started selling their own branded TV's, laptops, refrigerators, washers, dryers, or pretty much anything you have in the house soon.

    5. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Right now Amazon is pretty much going to expand into everything possible because they need to keep expanding, so they will be experimenting with various industries, I wouldn't be surprised if they started selling their own branded TV's, laptops, refrigerators, washers, dryers, or pretty much anything you have in the house soon.

      Yep, just like Apple has done with the Apple TV and their famous iPhone branded stoves.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    6. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by ranton · · Score: 5, Insightful

      More importantly, does Amazon know what brokers are expected to do for that 15%? You can try to "appify" everything but unlike a taxi, trucking actually has some significant legwork done by "dispatch/brokers". Do customers and drivers really want to directly communicate with each other about arrival times, dock bays, etc. and if they do, are customers going to ignore the cost of the extra staff they will have to hire to communicate with the drivers?

      I helped install and configure truck dispatching software in the late 90's / early 00's, and I am honestly surprised that profession still exists today. Lack of technology investment is the only answer I can come up with. There is nothing they did a decade ago that cannot be done by software.

      They recommend the best routes for the drivers -> A large truck optimized version of Google maps could do this much better than any human
      They keep track of fuel costs and other transportation costs to ensure each route is profitable -> Easily done by software
      They know their driver's habits -> So would tracking software which would be far more objective
      They look ahead for connecting loads -> Much better done by algorithms
      They basically work 60-80 hours a week -> Algorithms work 168 hours a week
      They negotiate load price -> As if Amazon couldn't do this in a more automated fashion. It's certainly in their core competency.

      They have a friendly relationship with their drivers -> The one thing software would have trouble with, but virtually all communication could easily be moved to call centers.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    7. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Do customers and drivers really want to directly communicate with each other about arrival times, dock bays, etc.

      Absolutely! I would much rather send this information directly to the driver through an app, than give it over the phone to the dispatcher where it is screwed up 80% of the time. I would also love to be able to see reviews of the drivers, and see a GPS plot of the driver's location. Trucking is definitely an industry that needs to be Uberified. It would be an improvement in every way.

    8. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by Desler · · Score: 1

      But then contrary to the claim that isn't eliminating a middleman. It's simply changing who the middleman is.

    9. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by Comboman · · Score: 1

      If they plan to be the Uber of trucking, they would start at something slightly less than 15% and then jack it up after they drive their competitors out of business and become the monopoly provider.

      --
      Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    10. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      If they plan to be the Uber of trucking, they would start at something slightly less than 15% and then jack it up after they drive their competitors out of business and become the monopoly provider.

      Yes, that's very likely what they will do. That is the magic of the "free market". Eventually, a bigger, badder competitor, with deeper pockets, will beat you up and take away your lunch money. Only a stinking socialist would find fault with that, right?

    11. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by Hortense+Yaya · · Score: 1

      They already have their own delivery vans in cities near one of their warehouses. You can order in the morning and it will be their in the afternoon/evening.

    12. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by Migraineman · · Score: 1

      I will be concerned if Amazon Consumer Products' Security Concepts Division starts to deploy law-enforcement services.

    13. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by Verdatum · · Score: 1

      Does Amazon know? I feel like Amazon's appropriate entities know a thing or two about what goes into shipping at this point. I tend to trust that they've done the research and crunched the numbers and concluded with a sufficient level of confidence that they could become a competitor in the broker game in a manner that is lucrative for them. And who says anything about customers and drivers communicating with each other directly any more than they did in the past? Alexa will take care of all of that. Amazon has the engineering power to make a service that does way more that merely match up client and driver.

    14. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by acoustix · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I helped install and configure truck dispatching software in the late 90's / early 00's, and I am honestly surprised that profession still exists today. Lack of technology investment is the only answer I can come up with. There is nothing they did a decade ago that cannot be done by software.

      They recommend the best routes for the drivers -> A large truck optimized version of Google maps could do this much better than any human
      They keep track of fuel costs and other transportation costs to ensure each route is profitable -> Easily done by software
      They know their driver's habits -> So would tracking software which would be far more objective
      They look ahead for connecting loads -> Much better done by algorithms
      They basically work 60-80 hours a week -> Algorithms work 168 hours a week
      They negotiate load price -> As if Amazon couldn't do this in a more automated fashion. It's certainly in their core competency.

      They have a friendly relationship with their drivers -> The one thing software would have trouble with, but virtually all communication could easily be moved to call centers.

      I happen to be the IT Director for a transportation company. I can assure you that while they have lagged behind in the past, the industry is rapidly catching up.

      Dynamic automated routing has been part of my company since 2005. Routes are selected by fuel contract price, tolls, hours of service, altitude, etc.
      Fuel and fuel tax tracking has been automated for over a decade
      Driver habits > Still tends to be manual due to drivers' needs that are constantly changing. Family home time, emergencies, vacations, etc.
      load planning is pretty much fully optimized except for instances listed above.
      Some loads can be automatically accepted or denied via EDI, but it depends on capacity and shipper requirements.
      Our lane prices are set. We rarely negotiate on a load by load basis.

      Driver relationships are crucial to keeping good drivers happy. Sure, there are lots of drivers (even in a driver shortage), but there is always a severe lack of *good* drivers. It's the most challenging part of the industry next to regulations. Call centers tend to piss off drivers. Some want to talk to the same dispatchers every day. Some only want to communicate via their mobilecomm device or smartphone app.

      Modern transportation software like McLeod LoadMaster or TMW Suite is very advanced.

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
    15. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by dandrews216 · · Score: 2

      Most of your assertions are spot on. I do take a bit of exception with "They recommend the best routes for the drivers -> A large truck optimized version of Google maps could do this much better than any human" - especially for hazardous materials (like gas and oil). Not every truck can drive on every road and Google maps has no way to handle this (yet). That's why software like PC*MILER is quite popular. Trucking is one of the few industries where there is a good ol' boy network. "I like Joe, he's a good guy, let's give him the load because he's idle."

    16. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by slew · · Score: 1

      If they plan to be the Uber of trucking, they would start at something slightly less than 15% and then jack it up after they drive their competitors out of business and become the monopoly provider.

      Yes, that's very likely what they will do. That is the magic of the "free market". Eventually, a bigger, badder competitor, with deeper pockets, will beat you up and take away your lunch money. Only a stinking socialist would find fault with that, right?

      The biggest, baddest competitor is basically the government. They don't need to make a profit because they have the deepest pockets because they can tax you.. Socialist will find no fault with it, because their dad can beat up your "free market" dad.

    17. Re:So...free or less than 15%? by xlsior · · Score: 1

      Basically Amazon is going to put up a load board, similar to truckstop.com or many other similar sites. Trucking is pretty much as streamlined as it's going to get

      For now -- I'm sure that in another 10-15 years, the vast majority of long-haul trucking will be fully driverless, running 24/7.

  4. Savings-transporters by Ostracus · · Score: 1

    Just wait till Amazon invents transporters. The transportation industry in it's entirety will be obliterated.

    --
    Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
    1. Re:Savings-transporters by SubtleGuest · · Score: 3, Funny

      Like Jason Statham?

  5. Middle-man by AlienSexist · · Score: 3, Funny

    "half the 'verse are middlemen and don't take kindly to being cut out" -- Capt. Malcolm Reynolds

    1. Re:Middle-man by vux984 · · Score: 1

      "It would also eliminate the need for a third-party broker, which typically charges a commission of about 15% for doing the middleman work."

      It's not eliminating anything. Amazon is simply entering the market as new competitor. They want to be that '3rd party broker'. And what commission do you think they'll take for doing the middleman work? Probably around 15%, maybe a bit less while they grab marketshare.

    2. Re:Middle-man by Desler · · Score: 1

      This isn't cutting out the middleman. It's just replacing the current middleman with Amazon as the middleman.

    3. Re:Middle-man by Verdatum · · Score: 1

      Certainly. But the current middlemen don't see much difference between being eliminated and being replaced. It's still "being cut-out" for them.

  6. liability, permits, hazmat, max hours on duty, etc by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    liability, permits, hazmat, max hours on duty, etc are all issues.

    And if they pull an uber where the drivers don't have that much control things can get very bad and will Amazon be able to get off? Maybe from a law suit due to the EULA but what about DOT fines?

  7. This is a great idea by caseih · · Score: 1

    This is a fantastic idea, and unlike the Uber thing, this doesn't involve running afoul of local regulations. In other words, professional truck drivers are, well, professional drivers who are already highly regulated and drive for a living anyway. Anyone can become a truck driver if they are willing to do what it takes to get their commercial license, and follow the existing regulations for drivers (log books, vehicle inspections every day, rest breaks, etc). It's not at all like Uber's attempt to be a taxi company without being a taxi company.

    There are several different kinds of hauling and some are more competitive than others. Freight hauling companies are always looking for new drivers. Bulk carriers (belly-dump grain trailers) are a bit more competitive in my area.

    In my area most truckers who haul bulk goods already own their own trucks and trailers. Many of them work for a trucking company because it's quite difficult to chase loads on their own. Having a company and dispatcher to arrange things makes it easier to arrange loads. It's hard to make a good living this way though. The trucking company charges flat per tonne rates to the customer, and then they pay the driver per km. If a driver has a bad day and is down quite a while, that's less money for him. This service from Amazon would put more dollars in the pockets of drivers while possibly driving down the cost/tonne for customers. I see it is a good thing.

    1. Re:This is a great idea by Higaran · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between owning a truck and trailer and running under someone else's authority, and running under your own. Getting a truck is easy, its all the licensing and other regulations that are too much, I own a small trucking firm with 25 trucks, there are 5 million things that I do that drivers and owner operators have no idea need to be done. Moving the freight is the easy part, it's making sure you are in line with all the regulations is the hard part.

    2. Re:This is a great idea by quintus_horatius · · Score: 1

      This is a fantastic idea, and unlike the Uber thing, this doesn't involve running afoul of local regulations.

      And it's coming in just time to be squashed by fully automated trucking.

    3. Re:This is a great idea by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Anyone can become a truck driver if they are willing to do what it takes to get their commercial license

      No commercial license is needed if you drive a two-axle bobtail, and don't cross state lines. You can do a lot of around-town deliveries and short-hauls that big-rig drivers don't want to bother with.

      ... and follow the existing regulations for drivers (log books, vehicle inspections every day, rest breaks, etc).

      You don't have to do any of that either.

    4. Re:This is a great idea by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      This is a fantastic idea, and unlike the Uber thing, this doesn't involve running afoul of local regulations.

      And it's coming in just time to be squashed by fully automated trucking.

      What? How do you figure?
       
      I have 0 interest in being a truck driver. But if I could own a truck and make money as it drove itself all around? I might very much be interested in that.
       
      And there's no reason I couldn't own a fleet of automated trucks and use this software as well. The truck owner is still making the money. The only difference is that the owner used to be the driver, and now they're not.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    5. Re:This is a great idea by quintus_horatius · · Score: 1

      And there's no reason I couldn't own a fleet of automated trucks and use this software as well. The truck owner is still making the money. The only difference is that the owner used to be the driver, and now they're not.

      Independent owners? I believe you're very much mistaken. I believe that the manufacturers themselves will probably own the fleet and lease it out to shipping companies.

      Prior to automated shipping, it's too much hassle to deal with humans. Paychecks, HR, unions, etc., it's all very messy and time-consuming. No manufacturer in the world wants to deal with that any more than they need to, not when you can sell a product and offload that hassle. (and don't forget maintenance contracts and spare parts!) Automation means that there is only the equipment to worry about, and the economics will change because they can sell a service with predictable maintenance costs built into the contract. Sell the trucks? Sell their livelihood to competitors? You've got to be kidding me.

      I have 0 interest in being a truck driver. But if I could own a truck and make money as it drove itself all around? I might very much be interested in that.

      You may not be interested in being a truck driver and that's cool, but I'm pretty sure you won't ever get to be a truck owner either.

    6. Re:This is a great idea by dandrews216 · · Score: 1

      This is exactly what panther expedited specializes with (no I don't work for them). The specialize in short-haul expedited local deliveries.

  8. In Soviet America by fubarrr · · Score: 1

    Amazon parrots Russian trucking cooperatives?

  9. Already Exists by Thelasko · · Score: 1

    Anyone who's stumbled across the TV show Shipping Wars knows this already exists. It's called uShip.

    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    1. Re:Already Exists by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      and that show showed a lot of laws being broken.

  10. Shhh... it's a secret! by geoscodin · · Score: 1

    Perhaps the headline should be tweaked... 'Amazon Is No-So-Secretly Building an 'Uber For Trucking" App...'

  11. This is Step 1 by drew_kime · · Score: 1

    What is Uber for regular Uber doing right now? That's right, self-driving cars.

    This "Uber for Trucks" is just Amazon getting all the shippers into their system so they'll be in the database with contracts already signed as soon as the self-driving trucks are ready.

    --
    Nope, no sig
    1. Re:This is Step 1 by Verdatum · · Score: 1

      I guess it depends on how far they're extending the metaphor, and I'm too lazy to read TFA, but to me, Uber for trucking sounds more like "Let's hire freelance non-union truckers and refuse to call them employees so that until the whole autonomous thing is hashed out we can undercut the crap out of UPS and FedEx."

    2. Re:This is Step 1 by drew_kime · · Score: 1

      Well that too, of course. :D

      --
      Nope, no sig
  12. Re:liability, permits, hazmat, max hours on duty, by caseih · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Those are things that are already regulated on a per-driver basis, irrespective of company they work for. None of that would change with Amazon helping drivers find loads. At any time a DOT agent can pull a truck over and inspect it, and examine the log book. This is something truck drivers already comply with. That won't change. I know lots of truck drivers who work for themselves. They already do these things. It's not at all like Uber's situation where private drivers who've never driven commercially are suddenly now driving taxis. Completely different scenario. Besides that, what Amazon might do is already being done by uShip.

  13. Re:Do you want Amazon to run everything by fbobraga · · Score: 1

    I hardly can wait! /SARCASM

  14. Uhhh.... by Desler · · Score: 1

    It would also eliminate the need for a third-party broker, which typically charges a commission of about 15% for doing the middleman work.

    So Amazon is doing all of this for free? If not, how are they not also just another third-party broker that charges a commission?

    1. Re:Uhhh.... by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      all of this for free

      Of course! That is, assuming you're shipping to or from an Amazon warehouse. If you're shipping to or from WalMart you can use the app for 15% though I'm sure they've already developed their own logistics system to stock their warehouses.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    2. Re:Uhhh.... by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      So Amazon is doing all of this for free? If not, how are they not also just another third-party broker that charges a commission?

      I think the difference would be that Amazon could leverage their existing software and hardware assets to provide this service at an extremely low cost relative to the costs incurred by the existing (and presumably less efficient) brokers.

      It might be so low-cost to Amazon that they actually could afford to offer the service without charging any commission (and perhaps justify it by the fact that it decreases the costs of the materials they ship as part of their main business). At the very least it would allow them to charge a significantly lower commission than 15%, without taking a loss.

      I suspect Amazon's primary motivation here is not to maximize profit from the lucrative trucker-industry (ha ha) but rather to streamline the movement of goods to/from their warehouses and distribution centers. If, as a side effect of that, they also streamline other trucking traffic, then so much the better.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  15. Re:My dad used to make $100k a year driving a truc by Verdatum · · Score: 1

    Hold up, NAFTA went into effect in 1994. Your dad was making $100k/yr in 1994 money? I'm aware that hazmat drivers get a bit extra, and they certainly should, but, was he doing 100-hour work weeks or something?

  16. Secret? by NEDHead · · Score: 1

    I don't think so...

  17. Re:liability, permits, hazmat, max hours on duty, by Sloppy · · Score: 2

    At many truck stops youll see a kiosk for OO's (owner-operators) to browse available jobs.

    And remember, if you don't like what you find in the mission computer, you can always go to the bar. At the bar, there's oftentimes someone hanging around waiting to offer a job to anyone who walks in. Maybe they'll hit you up to move some shadier cargo/contraband, or they'll offer pirate bounties, or they might even try to recruit you from freight missions to doing combat missions for the military!

    For the latter, make sure you have upgraded all your truck's weapons and gotten your combat rating and legal status up. Also, get expanded fuel tanks. Invariably there will be some deep strike mission far from any good place to refuel. So you'll either have to have big tanks, or you'll have to hunt enemy truckers to take their fuel to get you back home.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  18. Suggested Amazon Expansion Ideas by swb · · Score: 1

    Might as well keep using the "Amazon Basics" brand tied in with the "Amazon Now" functionality. With that in mind:

    Amazon Basics Prostitution: Clean, average-looking girls and boys for a minimum price.

    Amazon Basics Marijuana: Average, seedless marijuana with a predictable THC content

    Amazon Basics Firearms: Simple, high-capacity autoloading pistols and rifles

  19. FedEx lost there 1099 cases in court by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    FedEx lost there 1099 cases in court

    1. Re:FedEx lost there 1099 cases in court by tech10171968 · · Score: 1

      I'm sure Amazon's already thought of that. If not then they are skating on thin ice.

      Quite a few smaller companies (and even some larger ones) in this industry have been playing this game where they hire drivers on a 1099 basis but treating them as regular employees. The IRS takes a very dim view of employers who like to do that, as it's practically a form of tax evasion.

      --
      This space for rent!
  20. Re:How do they get paid? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    they take what falls off the truck and mark it down as bad packing.

  21. Re:My dad used to make $100k a year driving a truc by tech10171968 · · Score: 1

    Current trucker here. That $100K figure is probably not made-up.

    Not only is it possible, despite trucking's reputation of being "unskilled" labor for losers, but quite a few truckers have been pulling down incomes like that for *years* now. Of course, there are strings attached: a lot of those guys are owner/operators who practically LIVE in their trucks for something like 80% of the year; there are a shit-ton of non-driving duties for which you aren't making any extra money (eg pre-trip inspections, waiting for loading/unloading, maintenance, etc); and you should have had the parent clarify whether that $100K was *net* or *gross* (maintenance, repairs, tolls, fuel, tickets, permits, IFTA - a semi can generate a LOT of overhead, trust me on that). It's still good money (for now) but it's definitely not easy money.

    I'm not even an owner/operator (don't want to be one) and even I am pulling down short of six figures annually myself. I don't have much of a social life, but I'm not starving.

    --
    This space for rent!
  22. Re:liability, permits, hazmat, max hours on duty, by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    nice Escape Velocity ref.

  23. Re:My dad used to make $100k a year driving a truc by Verdatum · · Score: 1

    Thanks! Now that I think about it, how did health benefits work when in that situation (particulary, pre-obama-care)?

  24. AdBlock by hduff · · Score: 2

    The linked site won't display when you run AdBlock.

    Here's a free link: http://www.inc.com/business-in...

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    "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert