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Overwatch Director Speaks Out Against Console Mouse/keyboard Adapters (arstechnica.com)

Posted by BeauHD on from the precision-gaming dept.

Striek quotes a report from Ars Technica: Regardless of where you fall in the long-running debate between keyboard/mouse and analog stick controls, you could historically be relatively sure that everyone on a single platform would be playing with the same control scheme. Recently, though, third-party adapters have started allowing console players to use a mouse and keyboard effectively on dedicated consoles, throwing off the competitive balance in a way that Overwatch director Jeff Kaplan doesn't appreciate. "The Overwatch team objects to the use of mouse and keyboard on console," Kaplan wrote on the Battle.net forums. "We have contacted both first-party console manufacturers and expressed our concern about the use of mouse and keyboard and input conversion devices. We have lobbied and will continue to lobby for first-party console manufacturers to either disallow mouse and keyboard and input conversion devices or openly and easily support mouse and keyboard for all players," he continued. "I encourage you to reach out to the hardware manufacturers and express your concerns (but please do so in a productive and respectful way)." Kaplan is talking about products like the XIM4, a $125 hub that lets certain USB keyboards and mice work natively with some Xbox One and PS4 games (as well as PS3 and Xbox 360 titles). IoGear's $100 Keymander does much the same thing, claiming to be "compatible with all console games." These devices essentially emulate a standard controller through a combination of hardware and software settings, disguising the keyboard and mouse inputs in a way that makes them hard for a developer to detect. This is a problem in competitive online games like Overwatch, where the quickness and precision of mouse aiming can give a decisive advantage over players using a slower and clunkier analog stick.

28 of 262 comments (clear)

  1. No complaints by Altus · · Score: 2

    No complaints about PCs using controllers though?

    --

    "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    1. Re:No complaints by bistromath007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why complain about people handicapping themselves?

    2. Re:No complaints by boondaburrah · · Score: 2

      That actually falls under his second condition: "... openly and easily support [all controller types] for all players." On PC all controller types are supported, including gamepad and mouse+keyboard. Everyone knows this, and everyone has that choice. Thus, it's fair.

      On console the assumption is that you're playing with a controller. Until Playstation/Xbone openly support plugging in mouse/keyboard, he wants them either banned, or support added.

      The joke's on him though, the PS4 openly supports keyboards. Mouse? I don't know. I haven't tried.

    3. Re:No complaints by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, because a keyboard & mouse is a far superior for playing an FPS than a controller. I'm not sure how anyone can consider that a topic of debate as the summery implies. A keyboard and mouse allows you to independently move and aim with greater ease and higher precision than a controller. The issue here would be that people using a keyboard & mouse against console gamer using a controller puts the controller users at a severe disadvantage.

    4. Re:No complaints by bistromath007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're the same as a friend of mine who'd get pissed at you if you suggested he use a controller for a third person brawler. "If I wanted to use a gamepad, I'd buy an Xbox!"

      Your unwillingness to use different tools for different jobs is no reason to water down the experience for others, which this would do. If you make the PC version of the game easier to play with a controller, it'd be about a week before the scene is dominated by mouse and keyboard players using scripts or some other nonsense that makes their input look like a controller.

    5. Re:No complaints by Ramze · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Perhaps for Overwatch that'd be a bad plan, but there are games designed for controllers that don't map well to mouse and keyboard.

      Try playing the Metroid Prime Trilogy made for the Wii controller on a PC through an emulator w/ just a keyboard and mouse. Heck, even with a pretty standard controller it's clunky... you really need the Wiimote and IR Bar to play it properly.

      3D motion can be handled much faster with controllers or cameras to map to your own 3D motion.

      I propose Overwatch make their own damned controller for PC and console and make a ton of money selling it by billing it as "the best way to play"

    6. Re:No complaints by OrangeTide · · Score: 2

      Good luck inventing one.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    7. Re:No complaints by Immerman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Indeed.

      You could have a stick with a good 6 to 12 inches of play in every direction, allowing for a similarly wide range of speed and precision, though you'd still be losing the ability to transition almost instantly from high speed to nearly stationary, which is extremely important when rapid turning and precision aiming are implemented through the same controller.

      So you'd need to also transition from a relative to absolute position tracking on the stick. Of course that rapidly runs into the physical limitations of the joystick's range of motion.

      Of course, with such a huge range of motion you won't be able to mount this thing on a handheld controller anyway, so perhaps some method could be devised to operate it in both "active" and "repositioning" mode - perhaps a "reposition stick button". Or maybe instead we could do away with the dual-axis mechanical stick altogether, and instead put an optical scanner on the underside of the grip - then it could detect motion across a surface, and by picking it up you could easily reposition it without sending any movement signals to the game.

      You know, I'm amazed no one has thought of creating such a precise and convenient input controller before...

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    8. Re:No complaints by Immerman · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think because it doesn't really matter.

      Basically, the reason you can't have both PC and console gamers playing together on the same server is because the games are all intentionally borked to prevent it. Numerous companies have done play testing, and despite the console players getting all the aim assistance, etc. available on the console, even mediocre PC players will still mop the floor with them. The difference in controller speed and precision really is just that dramatic.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    9. Re: No complaints by Immerman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, it isn't.

      It's a matter of using small muscle groups on the controller versus large *and* small muscle groups with the mouse. Pay attention to someone using a mouse sometime - you typically see large-muscle motion from the shoulder and wrist for fast movement (turning) as well as small muscle motion from the wrist and fingers for precision aiming. And the transition between them is seamless and intuitive, as it's a combination you use every time you pick up or manipulate anything in the real world.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    10. Re: No complaints by chihowa · · Score: 2

      It's more than just that, though. A mouse allows you to represent a huge space of possible pointing positions as a 2D plane, which we're very good at dealing with. For FPS games, you can make any aiming movement from twirling around 180 to shifting your aim slightly in an extremely short amount of time by moving the mouse to a distance on the plane that represents that angular shift.

      With a controller stick, your control over aiming is a matter of holding the stick at a certain angle for a certain amount of time. The angle of the sick is much less easily controlled and the time you have to hold it has a direct impact on the player's ability to make twitch movements. Adding aids for controller users like smoothing the input (to make the stick angle more forgiving) or adding acceleration (to cut down on the time it takes to make a large movement) only makes the controller less fit for rapid precise aiming.

      Of course, a keyboard having more buttons is nice, even if they aren't in really the best layout for gaming. Being able to directly switch equipped items or activate certain items helps. Avoiding the overuse of "action buttons" makes it easier to control what your character is actually doing instead of accidentally doing something you didn't want to do (although these are usually carried over in console ports).

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    11. Re:No complaints by leathered · · Score: 2, Informative

      It has been done at least once before with some success, PC and Dreamcast players could play Quake III together. Of course users of the Dreamcast controller were at a serious disadvantage but there was a mouse and keyboard available for the console and its use was encouraged.

      The main disadvantage of playing Q3 on the Dreamcast (and most other consoles) was the lack of support for mods, it was DM or CTF and that was it. Mods are what turned the great FPS games into classics.

      --
      For all intensive porpoises your a bunch of rediculous loosers
    12. Re:No complaints by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah. I played Quake, Quake 2, Descent, and the like with keyboard and mouse. I remember when the much-promised Spaceball Avenger finally came out and even with the buildup the collective response was, "meh," when early-adopters were disappointed with their purchases. A buddy of mine that played Descent with a fairly fancy joystick tried one at a consumer electronics event and didn't feel there was any improvement over his Logitech joystick.

      My wife's MIT alumni club brought in for a presentation one of the principal engineers behind Canadarm2, and he brought a pretty high-end simulator with him that uses the same control interface that the arm itself on the ISS uses. We all got to have a go with it, and its control surfaces were essentially modified aeronautics controls. There was about as much commonality with a console video game controller as a keyboard and mouse has with a console video game controller.

      Keyboard/mouse isn't the only game in town for great interfaces, but there are few that work as well (like the flight-control type of joystick) and few that work in as vast a number of situations. I remember when games like Doom and Quake came out for consoles and they just felt terrible compared to the keyboard interface on the computer, and it sounds like in twenty years the situation has not improved.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    13. Re:No complaints by TWX · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...and most Slashdotters have no experience with them.

      *rimshot*

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    14. Re:No complaints by stealth_finger · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Handicapped" is an interesting word. I use an adaptive keyboard to overcome some physical disabilities. Fuck you, Overwatch director snob-shit.

      Handicap is a perfectly fine word to use. Just because you might be disabled in some way doesn't give you automatic ownership of a bunch of words. It doesn't even mean disabled people, a handicap is something that acts as an impediment or makes progress more difficult, as a disability does but it's far from exclusive to that. Get over yourself.

      --
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    15. Re:No complaints by Ash-Fox · · Score: 2

      He's probably talking about the obvious cheat of using the better keyboard and mouse, but still getting the controller aim advantage, by tricking the system into thinking you were using a controller.

      As someone that has a XIM4 for my PS3 & PS4, I can tell you that I have to disable aim assist on all games because it interfers with my ability to aim and end up missing shots because autoaim tries to drag my aim away from one target to another close by. Autoaim just isn't that usable with mouse and keyboard.

      I feel like I need to just add this tidbit here, that I wouldn't go into competitive multiplayer with autoaim to get an unfair advantage anyway, but certainly been interesting to play around with settings to see how they practically work. The main reason why I play with keyboard and mouse is because my giant hands cramp on controllers very easily and I find them most often very awkward to control anything but driving games.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    16. Re:No complaints by CronoCloud · · Score: 2

      I've mentioned in other threads about mouse and keyboard the ideas you bring up. Why do all FPS's have to be twitchy headshoty bunny hoppy mouse centric one with railgun duels across an entire map. Why can't an FPS be more tactical, realistic and movement centric

  2. I understand the concern but... by boondaburrah · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Controller adapters should absolutely /not/ be banned, since they'll take assistive devices out with them. That, and I have friends who play xbox fighting games with mouse/keyboard because they're hardcore pc players, and I play all my xbox games with a Dualshock 2 -> xbox360 adapter.

    The best move here is to add keyboard and mouse support, and separate matchmaking by device type used.

  3. Read Summary Again by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Informative

    It must be "can't even be arsed to read teh fucking summary" day on Slashdot!

    They said the EITHER want to block those products working, OR have open development support paths so that EVERYONE can use keyboard/mice with support from developers.

    You know, exactly like it is on the PC????????

    Jesus.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Read Summary Again by lgw · · Score: 5, Funny

      Where's the outrage in that? Clearly he wanted to keep those filthy console peasants from touching the mouse and keyboard of their glorious PC ovlerlords! Help, help, I'm being oppressed!

      Bah, you and your rational interpretation.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    2. Re:Read Summary Again by sexconker · · Score: 2

      PS players already have official support for mouse and keyboard.

      Xbox players are the issue. Until Blizzard can convince MS to allow official mouse and keyboard support, Blizzard's stance will be that it fractures the player base, is unfair, etc. It's going to take a LOT of bitching / bribing to get MS to officially provide mouse and keyboard support on Xbox. Probably more than Blizzard thinks is worthwhile.

      The goal here is to allow official mouse and keyboard support that Blizzard can detect. This way controller players get auto aim and mouse and keyboard players don't. You'll still have the issue of unofficial accessories that let people use a mouse and keyboard but emulating a controller transparently to the game. It'll be a cat & mouse game to detect and disallow these devices, as they'll be considered cheating (mouse and keyboard with auto aim).

      The real issue is that Overwatch is a very arcadey FPS that's poorly balanced and runs at tick rate far too low to be considered competitive. Tournaments and custom games run at a higher rate, but console players and the majority of PC player don't get that experience. Instead they get awful matchmaking that Blizzard is now trying to blame on the "problem" of mouse and keyboard users on console.

  4. Re:There is no debate by Triklyn · · Score: 5, Funny

    well, you just invalidated your personhood. how's it feel to be not a person?

    the preferences of objects doesn't count.

    congratulations, you've turned back the clock on civil rights.

    PC master race.

  5. Re:Surprised ! by Pascoea · · Score: 2

    I see the claim keyboard has an unfair advantage and am shocked by it.

    So you haven't played a computer game since the mouse was invented?

    A joystick is probably a superior input device for navigating/player movement, but is infuriating to aim with compared with a mouse. I'm not saying anything about the superiority of consoles vs computer gaming, I enjoy both, but there is no argument that a mouse is better for aiming in a FPS.

  6. Fuck it... handicap everyone by GrumpySteen · · Score: 3, Funny

    Mandate QWOP style controls for all players on all platforms.

  7. Re:Surprised ! by LightningBolt! · · Score: 2

    Umm, you're not even a casual gamer. This is how FPSes have been played for over 20 years:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    --
    Old people fall. Young people spring. Rich people summer and winter.
  8. no shit really? by indy_Muad'Dib · · Score: 4, Informative

    the industry learned that back during the closed beta of BF3 when xbox and PC could play on the same servers and the PC players wrecked the absolute shit out of the console players in every match.

    1. Re:no shit really? by PPalmgren · · Score: 3, Informative

      I remember playing BF3 with my older brother on his XBox when I visited him, while I had BF3 on the PC. The game played completely different: In the metro station map, on PC, players could barely ever capture the first flag without precise coordination and vision occlusion like smokes because if they popped their head up they'd get wrecked. On XBox, everyone just sprinted for the flag and it was a close range melee fest with flag captures usually being quite easy regardless of how well the defensive positions were set up.

      In short, on the PC the defenders had a heavy advantage where on XBox the attackers had a heavy advantage, and it showed in the win rate from those sides. This was entirely due to control scheme.

  9. Delete The Leaderboards by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Easy Solution:

    Delete the Leaderboards.

    Then balance doesn't matter.

    People who have a problem with this can get a Special-Ed version of the game that only displays a leaderboard, with their name on top.