Overwatch Director Speaks Out Against Console Mouse/keyboard Adapters (arstechnica.com)

Striek quotes a report from Ars Technica: Regardless of where you fall in the long-running debate between keyboard/mouse and analog stick controls, you could historically be relatively sure that everyone on a single platform would be playing with the same control scheme. Recently, though, third-party adapters have started allowing console players to use a mouse and keyboard effectively on dedicated consoles, throwing off the competitive balance in a way that Overwatch director Jeff Kaplan doesn't appreciate. "The Overwatch team objects to the use of mouse and keyboard on console," Kaplan wrote on the Battle.net forums. "We have contacted both first-party console manufacturers and expressed our concern about the use of mouse and keyboard and input conversion devices. We have lobbied and will continue to lobby for first-party console manufacturers to either disallow mouse and keyboard and input conversion devices or openly and easily support mouse and keyboard for all players," he continued. "I encourage you to reach out to the hardware manufacturers and express your concerns (but please do so in a productive and respectful way)." Kaplan is talking about products like the XIM4, a $125 hub that lets certain USB keyboards and mice work natively with some Xbox One and PS4 games (as well as PS3 and Xbox 360 titles). IoGear's $100 Keymander does much the same thing, claiming to be "compatible with all console games." These devices essentially emulate a standard controller through a combination of hardware and software settings, disguising the keyboard and mouse inputs in a way that makes them hard for a developer to detect. This is a problem in competitive online games like Overwatch, where the quickness and precision of mouse aiming can give a decisive advantage over players using a slower and clunkier analog stick.

Comments

No complaints

[Altus]

No complaints about PCs using controllers though?

Re:No complaints

[bistromath007]

Why complain about people handicapping themselves?

Re:No complaints

[Njorthbiatr]

The console version of overwatch actually has built-in aim assist, because of the fast-paced nature of the game since it's balanced for use with controllers.

The PC version has no such assists, so if a PC user is playing on a console, they'll be even better.

Re:No complaints

[boondaburrah]

That actually falls under his second condition: "... openly and easily support [all controller types] for all players." On PC all controller types are supported, including gamepad and mouse+keyboard. Everyone knows this, and everyone has that choice. Thus, it's fair.

On console the assumption is that you're playing with a controller. Until Playstation/Xbone openly support plugging in mouse/keyboard, he wants them either banned, or support added.

The joke's on him though, the PS4 openly supports keyboards. Mouse? I don't know. I haven't tried.

Re:No complaints

[ChromeAeonium]

No, because a keyboard & mouse is a far superior for playing an FPS than a controller. I'm not sure how anyone can consider that a topic of debate as the summery implies. A keyboard and mouse allows you to independently move and aim with greater ease and higher precision than a controller. The issue here would be that people using a keyboard & mouse against console gamer using a controller puts the controller users at a severe disadvantage.

Re:No complaints

[Anonymous Coward]

The PS4 openly supports mouse and keyboard on any game that the developer chooses there to be support for, it's up to the game developer, not up to Sony.

The PS4 version of War Thunder has controller and keyboard+mouse support, but I'm not aware of anything else.

There's also an official "mouse controller" for PS4, although horribly overpriced, but is endorsed by Sony and can bring kb+m control to anything on the system without needing any third party adapters. (PS4 Tac Pro)

Re:No complaints

[bistromath007]

You're the same as a friend of mine who'd get pissed at you if you suggested he use a controller for a third person brawler. "If I wanted to use a gamepad, I'd buy an Xbox!"

Your unwillingness to use different tools for different jobs is no reason to water down the experience for others, which this would do. If you make the PC version of the game easier to play with a controller, it'd be about a week before the scene is dominated by mouse and keyboard players using scripts or some other nonsense that makes their input look like a controller.

Re:No complaints

[Anonymous Coward]

That actually falls under his second condition: "... he wants them either banned, or support added.

Yeah, well, he needs to STFU.

First, the so-capped "console" is really just a PC. It has a CPU and graphics card in it that are the same as your average PC. Not using a mouse/keyboard is just fucking retarded.

Second, he needs to STFU because its none of his business what I do with my computer. I'm not cheating, so just STFU.

Third, did I mention that its MY computer and not yours, Mr. Kaplan? Please STFU.

Re:No complaints

[VernonNemitz]

If the analog stick is "slower and clunkier" than a mouse, at least one obvious solution is a faster and more accurate analog stick.

Re:No complaints

[neoRUR]

That is why I never bought a Console, I could never get used to the controller. For fighting games it's great though. I guess it's just a matter of getting used to it.

  I started with DOOM and the arrow and WASD keys and we had a mouse vs Arrow keys and the mouse won, it was close though.

Re:No complaints

[Ramze]

Perhaps for Overwatch that'd be a bad plan, but there are games designed for controllers that don't map well to mouse and keyboard.

Try playing the Metroid Prime Trilogy made for the Wii controller on a PC through an emulator w/ just a keyboard and mouse. Heck, even with a pretty standard controller it's clunky... you really need the Wiimote and IR Bar to play it properly.

3D motion can be handled much faster with controllers or cameras to map to your own 3D motion.

I propose Overwatch make their own damned controller for PC and console and make a ton of money selling it by billing it as "the best way to play"

Re:No complaints

[OrangeTide]

Good luck inventing one.

Re:No complaints

[Immerman]

Indeed.

You could have a stick with a good 6 to 12 inches of play in every direction, allowing for a similarly wide range of speed and precision, though you'd still be losing the ability to transition almost instantly from high speed to nearly stationary, which is extremely important when rapid turning and precision aiming are implemented through the same controller.

So you'd need to also transition from a relative to absolute position tracking on the stick. Of course that rapidly runs into the physical limitations of the joystick's range of motion.

Of course, with such a huge range of motion you won't be able to mount this thing on a handheld controller anyway, so perhaps some method could be devised to operate it in both "active" and "repositioning" mode - perhaps a "reposition stick button". Or maybe instead we could do away with the dual-axis mechanical stick altogether, and instead put an optical scanner on the underside of the grip - then it could detect motion across a surface, and by picking it up you could easily reposition it without sending any movement signals to the game.

You know, I'm amazed no one has thought of creating such a precise and convenient input controller before...

Re:No complaints

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

I forget what game it was, but some company built their clients and servers so PC and console could play their FPS together. People with mice destroyed console players, so they abandoned that goal, and it has been ever thus since.

I had both the console and PC versions of Max Payne, and playing the console version felt like assembling a ship in a bottle: clumsily and with tongs.

It hasn't changed and there will be an elite class of destroyers who use something else.

Re:No complaints

[Immerman]

I think because it doesn't really matter.

Basically, the reason you can't have both PC and console gamers playing together on the same server is because the games are all intentionally borked to prevent it. Numerous companies have done play testing, and despite the console players getting all the aim assistance, etc. available on the console, even mediocre PC players will still mop the floor with them. The difference in controller speed and precision really is just that dramatic.

Re:No complaints

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of gimping the haves, wouldn't it be better if the console makers made better input devices for the have-nots?
Games which are hampered by clunkly controls are usually not that much fun.
But then again, this is Blizzard, so I'm not exactly surprised they are trying to spread misery as much as they can.

Re: No complaints

[Immerman]

No, it isn't.

It's a matter of using small muscle groups on the controller versus large *and* small muscle groups with the mouse. Pay attention to someone using a mouse sometime - you typically see large-muscle motion from the shoulder and wrist for fast movement (turning) as well as small muscle motion from the wrist and fingers for precision aiming. And the transition between them is seamless and intuitive, as it's a combination you use every time you pick up or manipulate anything in the real world.

Re:No complaints

[DontBeAMoran]

And FF XIV allows players from different systems to play together on the same server too. Even better, there's a built-in tool to auto-translate words (limited to a dictionary of words and pre-made sentences) into the language of the other players. Confused the hell out of a Japanese player when I told him, via the translator, that I did not speak Japanese. He saw that in Japanese via the translator and tried to send me sentences made in Japanese characters instead.

Re:No complaints

[Dashiva Dan]

My mate Engelbart thinks you might be onto something...

Re:No complaints

[guruevi]

It's called a trackball. The problem with the analog stick is similar to the problem with the little nub on IBM laptops or trackpads. The area of movement your fingers make have to have a much larger effect on the system than your muscle movements, it amplifies any movement much more due to its limited area of movement without being able to correct for speed. It's a virtual lever with a very tiny distance between fulcrum and effort because you only have ~1cm to work with, any effort is thus going to be crude.

A mouse can correct for acceleration, slower movements affect the system much less than faster movements, a correction which is completely artificial and can be customized as such.

Re:No complaints

[Dashiva Dan]

So you'd have him remove the benefits set for console players due to assumed controller use, and assume they all have a mouse and keyboard and tune play for this? ....Then all the regular console players - the vast majority - will have a degraded gameplay experience... which means many will play something else.
He's saying that consoles either need to make it possible to know what inputs are being used (fair enough) so that keyboard+mouse can be detected and handled properly, or removed, so it doesn't need to be worried about, or everyone needs access to the same.
The whole idea behind console gaming is that the hardware is fixed. You build a game for PS4 you know the exact hardware specs. You build a game for PC that's a different story, and thus there's no aim assist stuff on PC, as it's PC users all have access to keyboard+mouse.
Now I know you're ignore this post, or argue with it, but you are also clearly one of those console owners who are terrible at overwatch and want to buy an advantage (via better hardware controllers). I'd say if you want a rewarding game, get a PC if you prefer mouse+keyboard. If you can't play without your unfair advantage, stick to console with k+m.

Re: No complaints

[chihowa]

It's more than just that, though. A mouse allows you to represent a huge space of possible pointing positions as a 2D plane, which we're very good at dealing with. For FPS games, you can make any aiming movement from twirling around 180 to shifting your aim slightly in an extremely short amount of time by moving the mouse to a distance on the plane that represents that angular shift.

With a controller stick, your control over aiming is a matter of holding the stick at a certain angle for a certain amount of time. The angle of the sick is much less easily controlled and the time you have to hold it has a direct impact on the player's ability to make twitch movements. Adding aids for controller users like smoothing the input (to make the stick angle more forgiving) or adding acceleration (to cut down on the time it takes to make a large movement) only makes the controller less fit for rapid precise aiming.

Of course, a keyboard having more buttons is nice, even if they aren't in really the best layout for gaming. Being able to directly switch equipped items or activate certain items helps. Avoiding the overuse of "action buttons" makes it easier to control what your character is actually doing instead of accidentally doing something you didn't want to do (although these are usually carried over in console ports).

Re:No complaints

[Anonymous Coward]

A note about the pointing sticks (e.g. IBM TouchPoint):

It's a strain gauge, and should not move visibly. There is (virtually) no slop, aside from the rubber nib, your finger, and the interface between them. You set your finger upon it, and it detects the force being applied to it. It does reset its center position periodically, which can be somewhat annoying if you had it lightly held (cursor goes sliding to the side of the screen).

I have seen a number of people treat them like some sort of tiny track pad, repeatedly swiping their finger over them. For some reason, explaining that it works sort of like a tiny joystick is not as helpful as one might think.

Re:No complaints

[tepples]

In theory, a controller lets more than one team member play on the same machine, as opposed to having to buy a separate license for each player.

Re:No complaints

[Opportunist]

Now how the hell would that be in the interest of the maker?

Re:No complaints

[Opportunist]

So the usual console aimbot? Blah.

Re:No complaints

[leathered]

It has been done at least once before with some success, PC and Dreamcast players could play Quake III together. Of course users of the Dreamcast controller were at a serious disadvantage but there was a mouse and keyboard available for the console and its use was encouraged.

The main disadvantage of playing Q3 on the Dreamcast (and most other consoles) was the lack of support for mods, it was DM or CTF and that was it. Mods are what turned the great FPS games into classics.

Re:No complaints

[Highdude702]

I have 2, i dont use them often. At first i hated it but i forced myself to play and tinker with it. And with the double set triggers and supprisingly accurate haptic feed back in the pads plus the accelerometers i actually like it more than any other controller ive ever used. For most games i still play mouse and kb and that will never change. But console players could actually gain an advantage using a steam controller imo.

Re:No complaints

[HornWumpus]

The correct term is 'clitmouse'.

Like their namesake, they can be tricky to get the most of, but work great once you get the hang of them.

Re:No complaints

[TWX]

Yeah. I played Quake, Quake 2, Descent, and the like with keyboard and mouse. I remember when the much-promised Spaceball Avenger finally came out and even with the buildup the collective response was, "meh," when early-adopters were disappointed with their purchases. A buddy of mine that played Descent with a fairly fancy joystick tried one at a consumer electronics event and didn't feel there was any improvement over his Logitech joystick.

My wife's MIT alumni club brought in for a presentation one of the principal engineers behind Canadarm2, and he brought a pretty high-end simulator with him that uses the same control interface that the arm itself on the ISS uses. We all got to have a go with it, and its control surfaces were essentially modified aeronautics controls. There was about as much commonality with a console video game controller as a keyboard and mouse has with a console video game controller.

Keyboard/mouse isn't the only game in town for great interfaces, but there are few that work as well (like the flight-control type of joystick) and few that work in as vast a number of situations. I remember when games like Doom and Quake came out for consoles and they just felt terrible compared to the keyboard interface on the computer, and it sounds like in twenty years the situation has not improved.

Re:No complaints

[TWX]

...and most Slashdotters have no experience with them.

*rimshot*

Re:No complaints

[OrangeTide]

Just because someone invents something different doesn't mean it is better or that it even satisfies the requirements.

Re:No complaints

[flink]

Try playing the Metroid Prime Trilogy made for the Wii controller on a PC through an emulator w/ just a keyboard and mouse. Heck, even with a pretty standard controller it's clunky... you really need the Wiimote and IR Bar to play it properly.

Did they drastically alter the input scheme for the Wii re-release or something? The first two were native to the Gamecube and only the last one had a split release on both Wii and GC at launch, IIRC.

Re:No complaints

[Ash-Fox]

Your unwillingness to use different tools for different jobs is no reason to water down the experience for others, which this would do. If you make the PC version of the game easier to play with a controller, it'd be about a week before the scene is dominated by mouse and keyboard players using scripts or some other nonsense that makes their input look like a controller.

What are you talking about...? The PC version already has aim assist for controllers...

Re: No complaints

[drinkypoo]

I use a classic Logitech Trackman Wheel (T-BB18) with my thumb and still do quite well in FPSes...

Re: No complaints

[nullchar]

Not saying it's easy to create new human-computer interfaces, but has anyone here read the novel Ready Player One? (Or equivalent sci fi - Stephenson, Gibson, etc, even lawn mower man).

We need precise 3D haptic interfaces controlled with our hands. Combine with physical or virtual keyboards for complete control of everything.

I agree with the general sentiment of this thread - stop whining and create something!

Re: No complaints

[drinkypoo]

I'm just saying, it's not because it is or isn't thumb action. It's because of the springs, and muscle tension; and because of the difference between relative and absolute pointing. Most joysticks are 10-bit and don't have enough resolution to play a fancy game on a fancy monitor anyway, so we use them to emulate relative pointing, at which they are very bad.

Re:No complaints

[Cmdln Daco]

Anything that convinces the console players to give it up or at least get a keyboard and mouse for their, err, computing device is a good thing.

Re:No complaints

[Cmdln Daco]

We are nerds here. There is nothing wrong with being a nerd. In particular if it means we can tweak our hardware to stomp on the stupid jocks and the consoles they barely understand, then it's alright with us.

The stupid jocks can hire a nerd to set them up if it's a problem.

Re:No complaints

[Immerman]

Sure, but lets be honest - FPS games are a driving force in the current gaming landscape, and console controllers are a decisively second-rate controller for the genre.

Making that glaringly obvious for such a high-profile genre would likely create a powerful perceptual drift towards seeing the keyboard/mouse as a standard controller, diminishing a certain "experience" mystique currently enjoyed by consoles.

Personally I'd say go for it anyway, but I can see one major potential downside for console makers - give such a capable computer a standard computer interface, and people start asking why they can't do standard computer things with it. And mostly they don't like the answer: because the Console Makers say you can't, Because they've currently got a nice tight walled garden built up around a captive audience of gamers, and they can rent access to that market in the form of platform licensing fees charged to game developers. And they as yet have no interest in becoming a "real" computer platform, with all the pressure to openness that involves.

But hey, that could change. Smartphones are getting people acclimated to various degrees of walled-garden app stores, and even Microsoft is rumored to be moving in that direction. Absolutely no reason why you couldn't sell LibreOffice through the Playstation storefront - except maybe some DRM-vs-GPL issues.

Re:No complaints

[J-1000]

Numerous companies have done play testing, and despite the console players getting all the aim assistance, etc. available on the console, even mediocre PC players will still mop the floor with them. The difference in controller speed and precision really is just that dramatic.

I hate controllers, but the last two Call of Duty games on PCs have added the stupid aim assist for controller users, and it's actually competitive. Those people have gotten pretty good with their silly controllers now that there's pro leagues and whatnot. They still need the aim assist training wheels though. Some people say the assists are stronger on PC, but I wouldn't know.

Re:No complaints

[Travis Mansbridge]

You'd still be swinging around wildly compared to the precision of a mouse. The difference in discretion of control doesn't lie in the hardware but simply in the difference between the accuracy of your entire hand, wrist and arm vs. that of your stubby little thumb.

Re:No complaints

[GNious]

The joke's on him though, the PS4 openly supports keyboards. Mouse? I don't know. I haven't tried.

I hope it supports mice, as otherwise the official mouse+keyboard pack from Sony would likely result in complaints.

Re:No complaints

[stealth_finger]

"Handicapped" is an interesting word. I use an adaptive keyboard to overcome some physical disabilities. Fuck you, Overwatch director snob-shit.

Handicap is a perfectly fine word to use. Just because you might be disabled in some way doesn't give you automatic ownership of a bunch of words. It doesn't even mean disabled people, a handicap is something that acts as an impediment or makes progress more difficult, as a disability does but it's far from exclusive to that. Get over yourself.

Re:No complaints

[stealth_finger]

I think because it doesn't really matter.

Basically, the reason you can't have both PC and console gamers playing together on the same server is because the games are all intentionally borked to prevent it. Numerous companies have done play testing, and despite the console players getting all the aim assistance, etc. available on the console, even mediocre PC players will still mop the floor with them. The difference in controller speed and precision really is just that dramatic.

ahem, citation required.

Re:No complaints

[mjwx]

Why complain about people handicapping themselves?

This,

You dumb down, not up.

Re:No complaints

[CronoCloud]

Console version of an RTS game.

I don't know why PC gamers think RTS are such a mouse-only game when the first RTS was a console game, Herzog Zwei. That's right, the genre that the so-called Masterrace goes on about originated on consoles.

That said, the RTS's on the PSOne have PSone mouse support. I'm surprised Blizzard ported Starcraft to the N64 and not the PSone which already HAD a small niche market for RTS games.

Re:No complaints

[crimson tsunami]

He's probably talking about the obvious cheat of using the better keyboard and mouse, but still getting the controller aim advantage, by tricking the system into thinking you were using a controller.

Re:No complaints

[CronoCloud]

FPS games are a driving force in the current gaming landscape, and console controllers are a decisively second-rate controller for the genre.

Depends on the game design really, the PC meta for FPS's tends towards the bunny-hop headshot paradigm which makes accurate aiming important. Now take a game like Splatoon where movement is emphasized, that works better with an analog stick.

Personal anecdotes:

I found Alien Resurrection and Quake II worked better on the PSone with the PSone mouse. In fact I (and most reviewers) consider the PSone mouse a necessity for Alien Resurrection.

I didn't feel the need for the mouse in SOCOM on the PS2, which is a slower paced realism focused game, but Timesplitters (faster paced) I wanted a mouse. Deus Ex and Half-Life on the PS2 support whatever input you want so I used hybrid style, move with the stick aim with the mouse. I also didn't feel the need for a mouse in the PS2 Star Wars Battlefront games

The Orange Box on the PS3 does NOT support alternate controls so no hybrid controls in HL2, TF2 or Portal, boooo! Dust514 did, though since Dust also has vehicles one basically had to switch control schemes since vehicles worked better with the controller.

Absolutely no reason why you couldn't sell LibreOffice through the Playstation storefront - except maybe some DRM-vs-GPL issues.

I actually have ran OO on a PS3 with YDL, though I preferred AbiWord for my word processing needs. I have ran AbiWord on a PS2 as well.

Heck since the PS4 is a BSD system, they could probably do it tomorrow if they wanted to. I've always wondered why SCEA didn't release some kind of Bank Street Writer/Wordpad/GeoWrite/GeoPaint style applications for the PS3/PS4.

Re: No complaints

[CronoCloud]

Which is why the War Thunder users that didn't use the easy-mode mouse flying were VERY welcoming towards the PS4 players.

Though War Thunder supports ALL control schemes on ALL platforms (Windows, OSX, PS4, Linux) so anyone can use ANY control scheme. You've got PS4 users with HOTAS (you can also use the PS4 camera as a TrackIR style view control), Windows users using hybrid controller + mouse schemes for tanks, Linux users with mouse-flying, etc etc.

Re:No complaints

[Ash-Fox]

He's probably talking about the obvious cheat of using the better keyboard and mouse, but still getting the controller aim advantage, by tricking the system into thinking you were using a controller.

As someone that has a XIM4 for my PS3 & PS4, I can tell you that I have to disable aim assist on all games because it interfers with my ability to aim and end up missing shots because autoaim tries to drag my aim away from one target to another close by. Autoaim just isn't that usable with mouse and keyboard.

I feel like I need to just add this tidbit here, that I wouldn't go into competitive multiplayer with autoaim to get an unfair advantage anyway, but certainly been interesting to play around with settings to see how they practically work. The main reason why I play with keyboard and mouse is because my giant hands cramp on controllers very easily and I find them most often very awkward to control anything but driving games.

Re:No complaints

[CronoCloud]

The PS4 version of War Thunder has controller and keyboard+mouse support,

HOTAS support as well. Yes there are PS4 War Thunder Players with Warthogs. The PS4 version also supports using the PS4 camera for TrackIR style view control.

The War Thunder community is somewhat welcoming to the PS4 users...well except for the Europeans who tend more towards the PC partisan thing. Even the PC players admit the PS4 players adapted VERY quickly to ground combat and dive-bombing though not as quickly to dogfighting in furballs.

Re: No complaints

[bistromath007]

Rocket League isn't one of the genres that requires this type of precision. That isn't to say it requires none, but as I've said before, there are different tools for different jobs. I wouldn't bother trying to play Rocket League with a mouse, though it's not nearly as silly as trying to play, for example, a fighting game with one.

Re: No complaints

[bistromath007]

We think they're a mouse-only game because as soon as somebody made one with a mouse, everyone said "oh, why didn't we think of that?" And now playing RTS with a controller is thought of as clumsy as all hell, because it is.

Re:No complaints

[CronoCloud]

It was the pretty much the same in FFXI on the PS2/PC everyone played together and it had the same translate feature as well as mouse/keyboard support. Though very few people used the mouse, even PC players didn't use the mouse much.

Re: No complaints

[bistromath007]

"Handicap" is a common term in all games and sports dating back to God knows when which means to intentionally accept a disadvantage. Chill out.

Author of this comment has been on disability almost the entirety of his adult life, if you're the kind of retard that thinks privileged people have no right to say shit to the disadvantaged.

Re:No complaints

[CronoCloud]

I've mentioned in other threads about mouse and keyboard the ideas you bring up. Why do all FPS's have to be twitchy headshoty bunny hoppy mouse centric one with railgun duels across an entire map. Why can't an FPS be more tactical, realistic and movement centric

Re:No complaints

[Travelsonic]

As someone who was originally born with weak muscle tone, so severely so that being functional (walking, talking, eating solid foods, etc) was supposed to be doubtful at best, fuck YOU, and your hypersensitivity shit.

Re: No complaints

[CronoCloud]

Hey, I've played several of the PSone RTS's both with and without the PSone mouse. I wouldn't exactly call the controller clumsy. While some actions were easier/quicker with the mouse, there were some actions that were easier/quicker with the controller.

And of course PC RTS's have evolved into the "you have to micromanage every tiny unit clicky clicky fests on adderall" subgenre rather than the "lasso a bunch" genre they originally were.

Re: No complaints

[bistromath007]

The thing is that, even if an RTS weren't designed with that micro style, (God knows I wish a series other than Dawn of War would consider that) a mouse would still be better overall. The most important things in an RTS, much like with FPS, are where you're looking and what you're pointing at. The main bit a controller would have the upper hand on is menuing, for which a keyboard can present too many options in too disorganized a layout to manage without significant talent and experience.

Re:No complaints

[Qzukk]

I'm amazed no one has thought of creating such a precise and convenient input controller before...

It was beaten to the market by a controller you didn't have to pick up to reposition.

Re: No complaints

[drinkypoo]

*cough*bullshit*cough*

You should see someone about that, it appears you've got some shit stuck in your throat.

Re:No complaints

[Talderas]

Was he unaware that the green and red braces bounding the statement indicate auto-translate?

Re: No complaints

[TWX]

I think the best combination for an RTS (thinking back to my Warcraft II days) would be a touchscreen to interact with the on-screen elements, a bare trackball to move about the map, and a ten-key for extended controls. Unfortunately this is a rather unusual combination and wasn't readily achievable until just recently when touchscreens have become so common.

And how do you get cheeto dust off of the screen?

Re:No complaints

[Immerman]

Heck yeah, I used to have one of those Atari trackballs. Worked great for a few things.

Doesn't really gain you much over a mouse though (other than being way better suited for arcade cabinets), since instead of lifting and moving the controller you have to release it and re-grab it in a different position. And in practice the range of precise motion is severely limited by the small radius of the trackball - more than a few inches of motion and you have to reposition your hand. Of course the fact that the ball can continue spinning even when released helps considerably, but you largely lose the fast and precise distance mapping since you're inserting a "let it spin X seconds at speed Y" component, which severs the connection of that rapid precision with the person manipulating it.

Re:No complaints

[Cederic]

I like mine. I use it for Rocket League and for American Truck Simulator.

I have a nice wheel/pedals that I use for Assetto Corsa and Project Cars but the Steam Controller is still better for ATS - mainly because ATS is self-indulgent comfort gaming and the controller lets me play it in bed.

Re:No complaints

[Cederic]

I started computer gaming on a device with no mouse or keyboard. Each controller was a dial with a button; rotate clockwise or anticlockwise, press the button.

Although.. it did also have a light gun. There's something we need more of; light guns and games that use them well. They're fun damnit.

(I upgraded from that to a Commodore Vic-20, which came with a musical keyboard overlay for its qwerty keyboard. Had to wait another decade for a mouse though)

Re:No complaints

[Cederic]

Yeah, bunny hopping is the result of game design flaws. Of course it's harder to headshot someone that's bouncing around like a demented Zebedee but why the fuck has the game even given them that option.

Twitch mechanics are more interesting. That's a definable game style and very popular so I think it's going to stay around. I agree it shouldn't preclude non-twitch FPS though, but those are harder to design and make fun and enjoyable. Doesn't Arma do that?

I don't personally want realistic though. If I had the physique and reactions to play major league basketball I wouldn't play computer games; give me some escape from my physical limitations please!

Re:No complaints

[boondaburrah]

I only found out when I tried to play Paragon, and Epic's game is so PC - centric that logging in is broken until you plug in a keyboard and type in your password that way. (there's no way to trigger the on screen keyboard for that field somehow)

The whole UI is so keyboard and mouse based that you have to move a little cursor around with your analogue stick and "click" on things. I may need to jut plug a mouse in and go PC on this thing, but until I have a computer that can handle it, I'm stuck playing on consoles.

Re:No complaints

[GNious]

The mouse-pointer thing on consoles is becoming more common - Warthunder is a pain in the behind with a controller, and Warframe is going to a mouse-pointer-on-consoles design as well.

As for Paragon, didn't have too much issue with the UI - the constantly crying PC players on the other hand, are annoying.

Re:No complaints

[DontBeAMoran]

I guess he either never noticed or never wondered what it meant. Maybe he was the first player who was talking to him via the translator.

Re:No complaints

[DontBeAMoran]

That's because the PC version of FF XI was more or less a PS2 emulator to run the PS2 version. That's why mouse support felt tacked-on, because it was. I didn't use the mouse in FF XI either.

Re: No complaints

[Black LED]

And of course PC RTS's have evolved into the "you have to micromanage every tiny unit clicky clicky fests on adderall" subgenre rather than the "lasso a bunch" genre they originally were.

Uh, no. Your own example of Herzog Zwei did not have multiple select and neither did Dune II: The Building of a Dynasty. The lasso a bunch crap came with the mainstreaming of RTS games around the time Command & Conquer and other poser games came out.

Re:No complaints

[Triklyn]

you can push the movement down to realistic. but ultimately that will focus twitch aiming more i think. but lets take quake 3 for an example. a bit of it is going to be rail, and that's whoever twitches fastest and twitches most accurately wins. but that's only part of the story, the other, largely more important story is about map control, map knowledge and predictive ability.

rockets are a thing, lightning gun is a thing, armor and health are a thing. but even there, whoever shoots first, or is going fast enough or upredictably enough to be hit less will win.

my go-to game right now is Natural Selection 2. think AVP + savage. marines vs aliens. twitch + tracking on the marine side, with a little bit of movement, and + general awareness and map knowledge. and on the aliens, it's all about movement + a little bit of map awareness and twitch+ambush. but arguably, mouse and keyboard is still better for general movement when you're going top speed. I need to control it so I'll bounce/fly into a vent and not get dead-stopped by a wall when escaping. mouse control allows for that precision of movement where I do not believe that controllers do.

if i'm flying around as one of the aliens, i will and have done 6+ 180's in the span of a 3 seconds to get 3 or 4 bites into a character while flying off at a different angle each time. If i sneak up on an enemy, i can get a couple bites into him before he turns around and jumps away, but I need to twitch to get that last bite in... etc. etc.

the point being, even gameplay that largely focuses movement like NS2 aliens... requires precision that I don't think controllers offer. because we're competing against one another, and getting your damage in first is always going to be more advantageous than getting your damage in late.

Re:No complaints

[cwsumner]

Yes.
Using "better" words because the original has come to "sound bad" is useless. The new work just ends up "sounding bad" as well.
The word "handicapped" is the less objectional word from long ago, and many other words are the ones that were considered "better"

Changing to a different word, is just a "vicious circle" of using up words. What do we do when they are all used up?

Re:No complaints

[cwsumner]

Hint: Try putting the controller down on a desk or something, so you have a good "baseline".

I use a keyboard, mouse and joystick (yes all three, in some games). And a lot of the accuracy is helped by the solid desktop. ;-)

Re:No complaints

[Dashiva Dan]

Anything that convinces the console players to give it up or at least get a keyboard and mouse for their, err, computing device is a good thing.

Well of course, best would be to give all console users keyboard and mouse so they can play better, but that would require console manufacturers to all get coordinated, and make future development of all console games need to accommodate multiple input systems. More likely to get verification of controllers for consoles than full keyboard and mouse support, but we can hope :)
(Also, I am somewhat biased, always been a PC gamer, purely because consoles don't have mouse and keyboard)

performance-enhancing

[turkeydance]

tech. that's what we do, right?

There is no debate

[chispito]

Nobody prefers controlling an FPS with thumbsticks. It is the compromise you make because you want to play on a couch.

Re:There is no debate

[gweilo8888]

That's not necessarily true. I find it harder to make sudden but precise movements with a mouse than I do with a thumbstick. I'm aware in the minority, but that doesn't mean you get to pretend I don't exist at all.

Re:There is no debate

[zlives]

clean out your mouse...

Re:There is no debate

[Triklyn]

well, you just invalidated your personhood. how's it feel to be not a person?

the preferences of objects doesn't count.

congratulations, you've turned back the clock on civil rights.

PC master race.

Re:There is no debate

[Sumus Semper Una]

Though this story does beg the question... if you *can* control a FPS game (or any other console game, for that matter) with a mouse + keyboard, why not have native support for that control scheme on the console wherever possible? It would certainly help lessen (thought not eliminate) some of the "my PC game feels like a stupid console port!" complaints. Plus game development studios would win out because they would have less barriers to cross-platform multiplayer games.

It's not like there aren't games that exist on PC with perfectly working keyboard/mouse controls that actually play better with a controller than a keyboard/mouse simply by their nature. Rocket League is an example that comes to mind. Why can't we fit the controls to the game instead of being locked in to exactly one type of control schema on consoles?

Re:There is no debate

[tepples]

PlayStation 2, 3, and 4 all have at least one game that supports the standard USB mouse and keyboard HID classes.

Re:There is no debate

[Immerman]

Simple - because having keyboard and mouse players in the game will expose the fact that everyone else is horribly handicapped by crude input devices.

Once you make KB/M input relatively easy to use, then you have to assume that everyone who wants to play competitively will be using them, and that anyone who wants to use a controller is going to be frustrated by how badly they are losing.

Now, personally I'd be fine with that - but it really fragments the target market for an entertainment device sold as being used from the sofa with a controller.

Re:There is no debate

[Ash-Fox]

It is the compromise you make because you want to play on a couch.

I have a cheap lap-resting platform where I have my keyboard and mouse for playing FPSes on the couch using my console with my XIM4. No compromise needed.

Re:There is no debate

[Ash-Fox]

Once you make KB/M input relatively easy to use, then you have to assume that everyone who wants to play competitively will be using them, and that anyone who wants to use a controller is going to be frustrated by how badly they are losing.

But in games like Overwatch, it places you with people of similar skill level which is determined by how well you win against other people... So, if it's true that keyboard and mouse are vastly superior and turn people into super soldiers, then they wouldn't be playing with console players unless they were just as adept and could handle themselves, no?

Re:There is no debate

[Immerman]

It has nothing to do with the quality of the players or the thumbsticks. The input mechanism is fundamentally different - joysticks control rotation speed, while mice control absolute orientation.

That means there's always a fundamental element of lag and feedback with joystick control - turning 180 degrees means holding the stick "this far" for "that long" and then returning to neutral position at just the right moment to be pointing directly where you want to be.

Turning 180 degrees with a mouse by contrast simply require moving the mouse say 6 inches horizontally, and each fraction of an inch corresponds to a fixed amount of rotation. Doesn't matter how fast or slow you move, if you move 6 inches you're looking directly behind you, 3 inches, directly to one side. That allows you to make precise maneuvers almost instantly - just as fast as you can yank your mouse a specific distance across the mat.

Re:There is no debate

[MayeulC]

Just be aware that the keyword here is

I find it

Experience and what you are used to are very important. But, as someone who started on consoles, only to switch to PC years later, I find M+K a lot, lot more precise (even though I sometimes miss the analog stick for moving around in FPSes, which is a good use of an analog stick). And coming back to consoles, I find my accuracy considerably decreased (also due to the lack of practice, nowadays). Aim assist is also blatantly obvious. It jumps in my face every time I play halo/borderlands/left for dead/whatever FPS on a console.

Now, a mouse is *objectively* better for aiming. There are many different ways to approach the problem, but I just thought about this one: imagine an aimbot. What kind of interface would you want to plug it in, for it to be effective? The quantization (~10 bits) of an analog stick makes it hard to be both fast and precise. Increase sensitivity, and you will have a hard time aiming precisely. Decrease it, and you now have to wait for aiming.
Of course, this is somewhat mitigated with non-linear scales, but it makes it very hard to input the exact movement in less than one frame. And this is for an aimbot. Humans are notoriously bad with precise timings. And I didn't even start on the ergonomy side of the argument.

Re:There is no debate

[GNious]

Nobody prefers controlling an FPS with thumbsticks. It is the compromise you make because you want to play on a couch.

Thanks - I'm slowly losing motor-control, and very much prefer controllers over mice.

Surprised !

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I am not a serious gamer, so it comes as a surprise or even a shock to me.

30 years ago I used to play the console game "The Digger" by Windmill Software. Using the arrow keys on the keyboard was so painful, I wished for a joystick. After being a Rip van Winkle for this long, I see the claim keyboard has an unfair advantage and am shocked by it.

Re:Surprised !

[thegarbz]

No one is aiming using a keyboard. For that there is a mouse, and when the aim of the game is to move a point to a very specific position on the screen there is nothing to compare with a device that directly translates lateral movement with virtual movement, and certainly not a device that translates angle to acceleration.

Re:Surprised !

[The-Ixian]

Not *so* much the keyboard that is the advantage. Though, I think the access to 5x the number of keys could make it an advantage. I think the real advantage here is mouse control of the camera view.

Re:Surprised !

[Pascoea]

I see the claim keyboard has an unfair advantage and am shocked by it.

So you haven't played a computer game since the mouse was invented?

A joystick is probably a superior input device for navigating/player movement, but is infuriating to aim with compared with a mouse. I'm not saying anything about the superiority of consoles vs computer gaming, I enjoy both, but there is no argument that a mouse is better for aiming in a FPS.

Re:Surprised !

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

True, almost all the games I played were arcade games, and I have never played a first person shooter.

Re:Surprised !

[LightningBolt!]

Umm, you're not even a casual gamer. This is how FPSes have been played for over 20 years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:Surprised !

[Darinbob]

A zillion years ago, using a joystick was awful. They were digital devices, not analog, so they'd be move or stop. I only tried using them with flight simulators instead of games that needed aiming. But it was awful. I assume they got better but I always regretted the loss of $15 there. I just never got used to those sorts of controls. Meanwhile I've used a mouse since the eighties and I know how to use it. Gaming console controllers just are not very ergonomic (unless you have tiny hands). The buttons are not where fingers naturally go for instance, and there are a limited number of buttons so you have to learn all sorts of combinations, never mind the absurd circular menu system. It's bad enough that several FPS games I've seen on a console have an auto-aim feature.

Re:Surprised !

[HornWumpus]

Even at the dawn of PC time, some systems (Apple II) supported analog joysticks. Early consoles were lucky to have 8 position 'joy sticks'.

Re:Surprised !

[Darinbob]

And they were awful because they were basically just 8 switches, making them very difficult to use for fine control. The mouse is still digital but it's fine grained enough that it is very handy as an analog approximation, and cheaper than the better joysticks that eventually emerged.

Personally, I think tiny trackball on a controller would have worked well, better overall control while still being usable on the couch or sitting on the living room floor. Takes a few days to get used to perhaps, but controllers take a lot of getting used to also.

I don't understand the concern about mice and keyboards on controllers, except for the paranoids who worry that someone somewhere might be cheating. I thought a big early selling point of xbox was that you could add a mouse and keyboard to it, or extra storage, and move away from the dumbed down consolitus of nintendo and playstation.

I understand the concern but...

[boondaburrah]

Controller adapters should absolutely /not/ be banned, since they'll take assistive devices out with them. That, and I have friends who play xbox fighting games with mouse/keyboard because they're hardcore pc players, and I play all my xbox games with a Dualshock 2 -> xbox360 adapter.

The best move here is to add keyboard and mouse support, and separate matchmaking by device type used.

Re:I understand the concern but...

[Mitreya]

Controller adapters should absolutely /not/ be banned, since

Actually, you don't even need a reason!
Why is it that someone thinks they can have a say over my console? For what reason??

It's like a farmer decides to reach out and ban sporks because they do not combine fork and spoon functionality well and may cause us to incorrectly eat some of the produced food. (or substitute a car analogy...)

Re:I understand the concern but...

[impos]

Controller adapters should absolutely /not/ be banned, since

Actually, you don't even need a reason!

Why is it that someone thinks they can have a say over my console? For what reason??

It's like a farmer decides to reach out and ban sporks because they do not combine fork and spoon functionality well and may cause us to incorrectly eat some of the produced food. (or substitute a car analogy...)

This is a developer wanting to keep balance in their game, not trying to 'have a say' over your console. Hook up whatever you'd like to 'your' console, just don't let it un-balance 'my' game. If you want to play with a KB and mouse, why would you have a console anyway?

Read Summary Again

[SuperKendall]

It must be "can't even be arsed to read teh fucking summary" day on Slashdot!

They said the EITHER want to block those products working, OR have open development support paths so that EVERYONE can use keyboard/mice with support from developers.

You know, exactly like it is on the PC????????

Jesus.

Re:Read Summary Again

[lgw]

Where's the outrage in that? Clearly he wanted to keep those filthy console peasants from touching the mouse and keyboard of their glorious PC ovlerlords! Help, help, I'm being oppressed!

Bah, you and your rational interpretation.

Re:Read Summary Again

[Raenex]

It must be "can't even be arsed to read teh fucking summary" day on Slashdot!

Obligatory, "You must be new here."

Re:Read Summary Again

[sexconker]

PS players already have official support for mouse and keyboard.

Xbox players are the issue. Until Blizzard can convince MS to allow official mouse and keyboard support, Blizzard's stance will be that it fractures the player base, is unfair, etc. It's going to take a LOT of bitching / bribing to get MS to officially provide mouse and keyboard support on Xbox. Probably more than Blizzard thinks is worthwhile.

The goal here is to allow official mouse and keyboard support that Blizzard can detect. This way controller players get auto aim and mouse and keyboard players don't. You'll still have the issue of unofficial accessories that let people use a mouse and keyboard but emulating a controller transparently to the game. It'll be a cat & mouse game to detect and disallow these devices, as they'll be considered cheating (mouse and keyboard with auto aim).

The real issue is that Overwatch is a very arcadey FPS that's poorly balanced and runs at tick rate far too low to be considered competitive. Tournaments and custom games run at a higher rate, but console players and the majority of PC player don't get that experience. Instead they get awful matchmaking that Blizzard is now trying to blame on the "problem" of mouse and keyboard users on console.

Re:Homosexuality is a Filthy Sin!

[F34nor]

Jesus saved the life of a Roman sex slave!

Yeeeees!

[RyanFenton]

I'm ALL FOR mouse controls on consoles!

Why? I want the design for mouse to be something at the forefront for developers, alongside controller support.

For the past half-decade or so, UI developers for cross-platform projects really seemed to give mouse/keyboard users a raw deal over interfaces, acting as though everything was just emulating a joystick, with horrible positive/negative acceleration logic, capping allowed movement per second, etc. Really bad controls on their ports to mouse-based systems.

Both mouse and joystick controls have their virtues. But man, when you have a choice, mouse controls with a TINY bit of practice are just amazing for their rapid precision. Controllers are cool for their analog inputs, compactness and portability.

The nice thing is that when you support both of these styles, you make it much easier to future proof your product. Once you have those handled, controls like a Steam-controller trackpad, or a trackball, or a wiimote/virtual reality controller become much easier to pick up, however they appear on later control systems.

As for the guy in TFA, yeah - I can see how he doesn't want to have to ask his funders to support any additional costs in testing. I can empathise, but as a mouse user, I say, the more platforms that get them, the better!

Ryan Fenton

If the k+m is mapped onto the controller...

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the adapters need to map the K+M onto the controller, it means they are bound by the same limitations that the controller is. It's not like using a DPI mouse on a PC... with precise movements are picked up (move 700 dots left, 250 dots up, etc).

Instead, they have to map onto the analog stick... hold the analog stick 27% to the right so long as you are moving the mouse to the right, and as you slow down, move the analog stick in.

Put another way: k+m through a controller adapter isn't capable of doing anything that controller itself isn't capable of doing.

I DO NOT OWN ANY SUCH ADAPTER... but I play with people who do. Both with and against.

Re:If the k+m is mapped onto the controller...

[AvitarX]

Seems to me the speed at witch I could full left to full right on a mouse is far greater than the physics of a controller would allow.

Re:If the k+m is mapped onto the controller...

[Ash-Fox]

Seems to me the speed at witch I could full left to full right on a mouse is far greater than the physics of a controller would allow.

Testing on my xim4 has shown that it isn't.

Re:If the k+m is mapped onto the controller...

[AvitarX]

Fair enough, I was only going with what it seems like.

Doesn't a mouse in a game have acceleration applied too though?

Like the speed I move it turns inches into a vector. so effectively a mouse is the same as a joystick as far as game input goes.

The game takes every pair of dots and turns it into a vector I assume. My x dots left, y dots down is actually a lot of diagonal vectors that alter with my speed?

Is there truly something else going on with the mouse as far as the game is concerned?

Re:If the k+m is mapped onto the controller...

[Ash-Fox]

Doesn't a mouse in a game have acceleration applied too though?

XIM4 compensates for that, it's a very smart device but requires custom profiles for each game which are provided by the vendor.

Re:If the k+m is mapped onto the controller...

[AvitarX]

That's what I would expect.

The limitation of "sending joystick input" seems meaningless too me. The reason the mouse is so much better isn't that it sends presice dots, it's that it sends vectors far more presicely from the human than a joystick can do.

Unless a game has a nerfed max directional input, or the steps of it are too course, a good mouse movement to joystick position map should be indistinguishable from a mouse input for the user.

I'm curious though, of you can flip around a joystick as fast as a mouse, why use the adapter?

Re:If the k+m is mapped onto the controller...

[Ash-Fox]

Unless a game has a nerfed max directional input, or the steps of it are too course, a good mouse movement to joystick position map should be indistinguishable from a mouse input for the user.

From experience with both controls, I have found that mouse movement is more erratic than joypad movement, you could probably determine mouse usage through the constant variances in movement that way -- However console players in theory could reproduce this, but it wouldn't be a normal way of playing on a controller.

I'm curious though, of you can flip around a joystick as fast as a mouse, why use the adapter?

I use keyboard and mouse primarily because I get something I can only describe as "hand cramps" on controllers easily.

But, moving on, I find the mouse offers precision in movement that I can't reproduce in an analog stick. I find it easier to get a crosshair on to a target and stop moving, or lead than I would with a controller (even with aim assist).

These are just small things however in a game like Overwatch, where you should be maintaining awareness and one person alone can't carry a team unless their skill level is way beyond. In which case, they'll get matched up against and with people around their levels in the matchmaking system. There are also sufficient heroes that you can go around with next to no aim and can do a lot (Winston, Symmetra, Junkrat, Mei, Reinhardt, Mercy etc.)

Re:If the k+m is mapped onto the controller...

[AvitarX]

So, my point is addressing this paragraph:

Since the adapters need to map the K+M onto the controller, it means they are bound by the same limitations that the controller is. It's not like using a DPI mouse on a PC... with precise movements are picked up (move 700 dots left, 250 dots up, etc).

I don't believe the move 700 left 250 up is meaningfully different than a vector from a joystick by the time it hits game input.

The translation device can do the linear motion to vector of acceleration translation and have the same ultimate input go to the game.

I think the improvement from a mouse comes not from the dots being more precise but the ability to move more erratically as you say. I can cruise the mouse very fast right to very fast right quicker than I can swing around an analog stick.

I think the matching system should account for the major difference in player quality with mouse Vs non mouse though. Worst case scenario, someone needs a readily available adapter in the normal price range of console accessories to compete at the top tier, doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Play-Anywhere

[im_thatoneguy]

I really wish Battle.net would embrace cross play in general. It's so frustrating to not be able to play with my Xbox Friends or vice versa even if they want to play at a *disadvantage*. B.net claims they don't allow Xbox and PC cross play because it wouldn't be fair to the console players but that should be a choice the console players are willing to make.

I have an Xbox One Controller adapter for my PC and sometimes play Overwatch with it. It's not ideal but I still have fun. They should tune the game for the input device and then have signed drivers which recognize verified controllers and enable auto-aim just like the console controls if you use an official or licensed Xbox One controller on PC. And they should let you decide if you want to play. Considering that match making seems like 95% of the determination of whether I win or not, I'll still enjoy the game with a controller.

ports suck and paided emulation

[Joe_Dragon]

ports suck and paided emulation systems suck.

Porting an joystick or gamepad / touch UI to pc sucks.

Also when you do that on top of a pained emulation system that does less then the free emulation system that came years before it and is loaded with DLC is an train wreck.

I/O Nazis!

[jtara]

Always wanted and excuse to use that term. Finally found one.

Re: Homosexuality is a Filthy Sin!

[Anonymous Coward]

And it doesn't even have pictures!

RECENTLY???

[Fieryphoenix]

XIM has been around for years. I was rocking a XIM3 on my Xbox 360 seven years ago.

What about the xBox Elite Controller?

[chispito]

The xBox Elite controller costs approximately the same price as one of these adapters and a cheap keyboard and mouse, and offers an advantage to the player using it. To elaborate, it lets you activate some of the face buttons using paddles, so you don't have to take your thumbs off the sticks.

Re:What about the xBox Elite Controller?

[Immerman]

Having easier access to a few buttons is handy, but it's nothing compared to the radical increase in aiming speed and precision allowed by the mouse. Especially when the game input is designed under the assumption that those buttons will be harder to hit.

Re:What about the xBox Elite Controller?

[Cederic]

If you bought one, you just got ripped off by Microsoft.

I think that's a tad harsh. I could easily afford one and would buy it knowing it's bloody expensive but also acknowledging that it offers a value proposition unavailable from other controllers.

That's an informed choice, and that means I'm not being ripped off.

I haven't bought one because I like the Steam controller which includes additional buttons too and a touchpad rather than a second thumbstick. That's working nicely for me and I'd prefer not to mix and match my right thumb's activities between different controllers. Otherwise I'd probably buy the expensive Microsoft one based on the broad feedback saying it's actually jolly good.

User Paps to Play How They Want

[FrodoOfTheShire]

The company is forgetting the basic rule of business that "The customer is always right"

If a person pays good money to play the game, then they should be entitled to play the game the way they like. If the concern is how it unbalances competition in online play then restrict keyboard players to play against other keyboard players, or to play against players who are willing to use a controller against a keyboard.

It's ridiculous and arrogant for the company to assume they should be allowed to ban people from using different devices with their consoles.

Re:User Paps to Play How They Want

[vux984]

Did it feel good to make a post that was so indignantly self-rigteous it actually completely missed the point.

. If the concern is how it unbalances competition in online play then restrict keyboard players to play against other keyboard players, or to play against players who are willing to use a controller against a keyboard.

That would be great if you could tell which were which but this devices emulates a controller with a keyboard and mouse, giving the player that advantages of the keyboard/mouse, but exposing itself to the game as just a controller.

So even if the game adds keyboard/mouse support, separates them, and players can pick which league they play in ... you will still have players with keyboards and mouse in the controller only league destroying the competition, because THOSE particular keyboards and mice users identify themselves as controllers.

Well fuck him.

[iCEBaLM]

He doesn't get to decide how I play the game I bought, ESPECIALLY if the exact same functionality is available on another platform the same game is on.

They decided to make an FPS game for a sub-optimal controller configuration. Don't bitch when people try to fix the short comings.

Aren't people playing for fun anymore?

[ffkom]

Regardless of whether something is called a "game" or a "sport" - it's most fun when played against opponents with a not-too-far-off skill level. So if you play an "online"-game against some stranger a reasonable server will match you with an opponent of similar strength, and it totally doesn't matter whether that strength is achieved by quicker fingers or some more suitable input device. Why should you bother whether you are matched against some clumsy person using a great keyboard or against a grandmaster using some half-defect controller? If that opponent's strength is comparable to yours, whatever input devices used, the game should be an entertaining challenge.

Or is the problem that people do not play for fun anymore, but for some questionable "reward" to hold some position in a high score table? How sad that would be...

Re:Aren't people playing for fun anymore?

[Opportunist]

The best, most satisfying, games are the ones where your skill matches that of your opponent. They last for a while, they need you to shift your tactics a few times during the battle, just to stay that inch ahead and it's satisfying as all hell when you eventually beat him. And you don't even feel like trash talking because he did put up a good fight, hell, even losing can be satisfying if your opponent eventually tells you that it was a great fight and he appreciates your effort.

It's way different if you roll them or get rolled. Sure, it's over quickly and you get your "points", but inside, you feel empty and the whole shit reeks of a waste of time.

I play to have fun. And fun in games where you compete against other players is to get a good challenge and an even match. Sadly, the matchmaking services in nearly all such games suck donkey balls.

Make everybody use a low-fidelity controller?

[fizzup]

I don't play console games, so maybe I have the wrong perspective on this; however, I think this is a really wrong-headed approach. As far as I can tell, a developer is unhappy because it's possible to buy hardware that really improves a user's experience when they play the developer's game. The game developer, upset that some users have an advantage, wants everybody to get the poorest least-common-denominator user experience. Although the goal is laudable because everybody in a competitive game should have a level playing field, the cure is just as bad as the disease. If the controllers on consoles are worse than a keyboard and mouse, the developer should push for console manufacturers to make better controllers.

Re:Make everybody use a low-fidelity controller?

[Opportunist]

The cure is none because you cannot in any way determine whether the people actually play "by the rules" and use controllers, or whether they somehow managed to rig a KB/Mouse set to act as if they did use a controller.

The only sensible move is to simply allow them.

Fuck it... handicap everyone

[GrumpySteen]

Mandate QWOP style controls for all players on all platforms.

Re:Fuck it... handicap everyone

[Cederic]

Somewhere, someone has mastered this input system. We need Hypersports reimplementing with a QWOP HCI; that'd be a proper e-sport with a genuinely scary skill ceiling.

Competitive Play over the Internet...

[Marc_Hawke]

...is a joke. (For the record, I'm just fine with the 'allow all extra peripherals by default'.)

Your controller choice is just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many other factors and exploits that can happen over the 'untameable' Internet that controller choice is lost in the crowd.

If you're that worried about 'competitive gaming' then you should do it like all competitive sports. In person, supervised, with referees making sure you're following the rules.

Re:All I hear is...

[Hognoxious]

Deep Purple, 1974?

Calm down, Blizzard

[rewardian]

Most competitive games take the more liberal approach of allowing any input device and specify ad-hoc whether one is allowed. Very difficult to implement policy, no?

How's that even possible?

[scdeimos]

On Playstations, for example, most third party controllers disconnect every few minutes because they fail the encryption heartbeat challenges. Or is this only a problem on Xbox consoles?

Re:How's that even possible?

[Ash-Fox]

My xim4 requires the connection of a real Playstation controller in order to operate. Hence, no issue.

Re:FUCK THEM

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you refuse to RTFA, you just made yourself look like the fucking idiot that you are. There are ALREADY adapters that do exactly this. Fuck, just read the summary, dipshit.

OR

[Some_Llama]

instead of purposely hampering control of movement via a controller.. allow USB mice and keyboards to be used for all games regardless of console or PC.

I don't understand why the reluctance to provide an interface for gamers who want to use a keyboard and mouse. it is clearly the superior control scheme for shooters and modern consoles have built in USB support. it's like forcing ice skaters to use high heels and suing the manufacturers of skates.

Can anyone explain why they won't let people just use kb/mouse instead? it would veen cost as much as shown now by people having to purchase a 100$ hub in order to use kb/mouse.

as someone who doesn't have both thumbs, controllers just don't work for me.. i can only use a kb/mouse combo.

Re:OR

[Opportunist]

If you want to compete, I don't give a shit about your feelings. Shit or get off the pot.

When we play for fun, sure, turn on your aimbot so you can play on par with someone whose input isn't crippled. If you want to compete, bring what's necessary to the table or stay away.

Re:OR

[Anonymous Coward]

You are in violent agreement with me, apparently. Not sure why you sound so argumentative. I was merely answering the question of the poster above me about why companies are reluctant to let kb/m players play against controller players. It's because the controller players get roflstomped, and they don't like it, and that's bad for business.

I don't use a controller, I use a kb/m. Unclear why you seem to be taking the piss here.

Re:OR

[petermgreen]

In any game that requires precise pointing/aiming players using keyboards and mice destroy players using console pads.

But keyboard/mouse requires a very different setup from console pads. Console pads can be used to play in the lounge sitting on the sofa. Keyboard and mouse pretty much requires a desk. Generally people have their consoles set up in their lounge with their TV, not in their office with their monitor. Most console players aren't going to want to rearrange their furniture so they can play with a keyboard/mouse.

So if you put keyboard/mouse support into console gaming and let them play with everyone else a handful of hardcore players will set up their console on a desk as if it was a PC and destroy even the best pad users. Letting the minority who have thier console in a "desktop" setup dominate the game is not good for buisness. If you split the keyboard/mouse players into their own group you leave people wondering why they can't play with their friends or wondering why matchmaking never finds anything.

Re:OR

[CronoCloud]

Keyboard and mouse pretty much requires a desk.

Lappads or TV trays can help with using a keyboard and/or mouse in the living room with your console.

a handful of hardcore players will set up their console on a desk as if it was a PC and destroy even the best pad users. Letting the minority who have thier console in a "desktop" setup dominate the game is not good for buisness.

My console set up is desktop style, but that was because I played MMO's and used Linux. I had the PS2 Linux kit (and played EQOA and FFXI) and YDL on the PS3 (and DCUO and FreeRealms)

And since I have STO, Neverwinter, TESO, DCUO and War Thunder... I still use a desktop style setup for the PS4.

The right tool for the right job

[Opportunist]

Playing FPS games with a controller is about as bad as playing third person platformers with keyboard and mouse. Yes, either is possible, but don't expect to ever be as good as someone using the "right" input device.

And bluntly, if you want to play "competitively", stop whining about getting a leg up to cater to your inefficient input so you don't have to get used to using a sensible one. If you're just trying to play for fun, go ahead, play with whatever and however you please, but if you want to compete, I think the least to be expected from you is to try as hard as you can. Or would you appreciate it if a low budget racing team gets to whine that the more powerful teams have to put lead into their cars so they can play with the big boys?

Re:The right tool for the right job

[djinn6]

Playing FPS games with a controller is about as bad as playing third person platformers with keyboard and mouse.

What's wrong with playing platformers with a keyboard & mouse?

Re:The right tool for the right job

[Opportunist]

To me it just feels weird. Especially if you have like 5 different jumps/attacks/actions that you want to execute while whirling around that just BEG to have about as many conveniently positioned buttons to press. That most of these games are designed to be played with a controller sure doesn't help either to make playing them with KB/M easy.

It's way more sensibly doable than playing FPS games with a controller, though.

Re:Simulate ping

[Opportunist]

Also, limit the framerate to whatever the crappiest graphics card supported can offer. It cannot be that someone has an advantage just because he invest in a more powerful graphics card.

Maybe...

[argStyopa]

...you shouldn't gimp your games with shit controllers?

no shit really?

[indy_Muad'Dib]

the industry learned that back during the closed beta of BF3 when xbox and PC could play on the same servers and the PC players wrecked the absolute shit out of the console players in every match.

Re:no shit really?

[PPalmgren]

I remember playing BF3 with my older brother on his XBox when I visited him, while I had BF3 on the PC. The game played completely different: In the metro station map, on PC, players could barely ever capture the first flag without precise coordination and vision occlusion like smokes because if they popped their head up they'd get wrecked. On XBox, everyone just sprinted for the flag and it was a close range melee fest with flag captures usually being quite easy regardless of how well the defensive positions were set up.

In short, on the PC the defenders had a heavy advantage where on XBox the attackers had a heavy advantage, and it showed in the win rate from those sides. This was entirely due to control scheme.

Re:It's a Stupid debate

[Ash-Fox]

1) Enjoyment of all players is impacted

But, it isn't. Because Overwatch places capable players with just as capable players. Not unlike other titles like Titanfall etc.

The games are already match making people who are are capable to each other, which makes this argument completely ridiculous.

2) Profit of the game sellers is impacted by 1

Since 1 isn't true, this doesn't happen.

3) How long the game company will keep the servers running for the people who are enjoying the game is impacted by 2

Since 2 isn't true, this isn't relevant to the matter either.

Re:Simulate ping

[Ash-Fox]

Consoles have interchangeable graphics cards now?

Well, duh? For example, there are performance differences between the default hardware that comes with the PS3, PS3 Slim, PS3 Superslim, PS4, PS4 Pro and there are games that are crossplatform between all five.

Delete The Leaderboards

[Cmdln Daco]

Easy Solution:

Delete the Leaderboards.

Then balance doesn't matter.

People who have a problem with this can get a Special-Ed version of the game that only displays a leaderboard, with their name on top.

GLWT

[mwvdlee]

Overwatch director to hardware manufacturers; "Please stop making money so we can make more money".

Re:GLWT

[MayeulC]

As far as I know, Microsoft/Sony do not earn money from the sales of these adapters. It's more asking to prohibit them altogether or allow to plug in any mouse/keyboard.

Which would of course drive down the sales of the profitable controllers.

Steam boxes, where are you? (And I am surprised by the lack of mention of the steam controller in this thread, which is, IMO, quite a good compromise).

So..

[SuperDre]

Well, some players can't play a shooter with a joypad if their life depended on it. These are more likely the people who (also) buy such adaptors. I have a fragfx and a another 'mouse' for the PS3 to play shooters, as I just cannot get a handle on using the controller. And I do want to play such games on a console, so I have to resort to using controllers like that.
And to be honest, I've seen more than enough people playing with controllers who are much better than people with their KB/M combo.
But there is no reason why a console cannot support KB/M directly, and developers just have to activate the support. Most standard engines like UE4/Unity/CryEngine have it built in, even on consoles, but they (most of the time) don't let you define your own controls, even though the engine has all support for it. Would love to be able to just assign my own buttonscheme for my joypad as only being able to select from a few standard layouts..

Waaaaaah!

[wildstoo]

So people with these devices get an advantage. So what?

Players with TVs that have low processing latency have an advantage.

Players with a fast and stable Internet connection have an advantage.

Players living closer to the hosting servers probably have an advantage.

Players jacked up on caffeine probably have an advantage.

There are many factors that can influence your success in a multiplayer FPS. Let's not pretend that forcing console players to use a first-party controller makes everything fair.

Re:Waaaaaah!

[mjwx]

So people with these devices get an advantage. So what?

Players with TVs that have low processing latency have an advantage.

Which is so minute that it is easily overcome by a modicum of skill.

Players with a fast and stable Internet connection have an advantage.

Which is so minute that it is easily overcome by a modicum of skill.

Players living closer to the hosting servers probably have an advantage.

Which is so minute that it is easily overcome by a modicum of skill.

Players jacked up on caffeine probably have an advantage.

Actually, excessive caffeine tends to make people jittery and irrational, so this is patently false.

There are many factors that can influence your success in a multiplayer FPS. Let's not pretend that forcing console players to use a first-party controller makes everything fair.

The thing is, the difference between the KB and mouse compared to a controller is so great that no amount of skill makes it a fair competition. Take one of the leading players, give them a console controller then let a mediocre player use a KB and Mouse, there is no doubt who will win.

You need to stop pretending that a console controller is in any way comparable to the KB and mouse.

Re:Waaaaaah!

[Ash-Fox]

The thing is, the difference between the KB and mouse compared to a controller is so great that no amount of skill makes it a fair competition.

The Matchmaking system makes it a fair competition. People who are capable get matched up with people just as capable. While people who aren't so capable, get matched up with people who aren't so capable.

Take one of the leading players, give them a console controller then let a mediocre player use a KB and Mouse, there is no doubt who will win.

We know it would be the leading PC player, as it can be seen by the world's top Overwatch console player who happens to be a PC player that plays on controller on console (and streams it).

You need to stop pretending that a console controller is in any way comparable to the KB and mouse.

It's comparable enough that the multi-platform community is aware that bronze K/B players on PC is bronze on console despite using tools like the XIM4. Same with Platnium, Diamond and Master (silver and gold doesn't quite work that way due to what people believe to be 'elohell' based on the ranking system Overwatch uses for competitive). How would you explain these results?

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[account_deleted]

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[account_deleted]

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Re:Simulate ping

[CronoCloud]

there are games that are crossplatform between all five.

Which ones, I can only think of 3: DCUO, FFXIV and Destiny?

Re:Simulate ping

[Ash-Fox]

Which ones, I can only think of 3

I'm not really interested in digging up more titles especially when it doesn't invalidate my point of:

there are games that are crossplatform between all five.

Re:Simulate ping

[CronoCloud]

Ah, sorry I guess I could have been more clear, I wasn't trying to invalidate your point, I was just trying to remember which games. So just curiosity.

Re:Directness of movement

[skids]

Actually on the driver side, sticks are absolute and mice are relative. The difference is fungible and you can translate between the two as you please except for the fact that you can pick the mouse up to ratchet it.

There's no need for game developers to handicap controllers even further but not doing the sensible thing: if they are going to include a dead zone, overlay some absolute positioning inside the dead zone for fine aiming, and don't make the edge of the dead zone lurchy. I think KM would still have the advantage, but there'd be less reason to complain if controllers weren't programmed with the intent to simulate how you would play the game when drunk.

BFD

[oh_my_080980980]

You're telling me someone's internet connection isn't a bigger limiting factor than their input device. Get an F'ing life.

Original controller, hardware hacking, arduinos...

[John Allsup]

If you take an original controller, open it up, and solder in a few wires, and connect the other end to an arduino contraption, you can pretty much send whatever information to the console you like via an 'original controller'. Now people learning how to make stuff, modify stuff, and so on, is _way_ more important than console gaming. One has the capacity to allow people to solve interesting problems, the other is a recreation.