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Australia's Retailers Join the Local Giant Banks in Their Battle With Apple Pay (nfcworld.com)

Posted by msmash on from the down-under dept.

More trouble for Apple in Down Under. The $300 billion retail sector has hit back at Apple, saying the global tech giant is trying to freeload on the payments infrastructure built by banks and retailers and restricting iPhone access to payments terminals will hinder loyalty schemes. From a report: The Australian Retailers Association (ARA) has come out in support of the group of four Australian banks seeking stronger negotiation powers with Apple over the introduction of Apple Pay in the country, saying they believe access to the NFC functionality in the iPhone would allow retailers to provide "a richer and more convenient customer experience." The ARA, which represents 5,000 independent and national retailers, says access to the NFC functionality will allow retailers to "develop or participate in mobile wallets that provided a consistent and fully integrated experience to all users regardless of their choice of smartphones" while also allowing loyalty programs, coupons and rewards to be "more effectively integrated into these mobile wallets." "In our view -- for as long as Apple Pay remains the only app that can use the iPhone's NFC functionality -- the potential for innovation in mobile wallets and mobile payments will be limited," the ARA says in a submission to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.

68 comments

  1. New name by geek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Change Apple Pay to "Pay Apple". It's more truthful.

    1. Re:New name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Crap, coughed while modding, and my mouse slipped from "Informative" to "Funny". Need at least two different upmods to undo this.

  2. Turnabouts fair play by ghoul · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If Apple wants Banks to cooperate by opening their payment network to iPhones , Apple must open up the iPhone NFC to mobile wallets from Banks. A competition commission cannot say its anti-competitive for incumbents to block Apple Pay but its not anti-competitive for Apple to not allow access to the NFC chip in an iPhone.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
    1. Re:Turnabouts fair play by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Apple must open up the iPhone NFC to mobile wallets from Banks.

      The retailers are saying they want access to the NFC to offer a "richer and more convenient customer experience", which means they want to collect customer data without explicit consent, and coerce more people into their "loyalty" programs. I am all for faster and more secure transactions, but increased privacy should also be an explicit goal of any future payment standard.

    2. Re:Turnabouts fair play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      >>A competition commission cannot say its anti-competitive for incumbents to block Apple Pay but its not anti-competitive for
      >> Apple to not allow access to the NFC chip in an iPhone.

      I usually find it's a mistake to give analysis in situations when I have NFI what I'm talking about :).

      It isn't "anti-competative for the incumbents to block AP." Nobody is blocking AP. Australia is not like the US. a) There is a reasonably strong consumer protection agency (ACCC). b) There aren't billions of banks... there are really five big ones. The banks asked for an exception to cartel laws so they could gang together and negotiate as one. They were told no. For banks that don't have a strong history of protecting consumers, that doesn't seem terrible. Some banks have already signed on to AP. Some haven't. That's how these things are supposed to work.

      They don't have to sign on to Apple Pay. Apple doesn't have to give them access to their hardware. Where is the problem?

      (As an aside, Australia isn't as pre-historic as the US when it comes to credit cards. Mag stripe is *not* a thing. *Everybody* has already rolled out contactless payments. So as a customer, AP has much less of a benefit. If you put your credit card in your phone case, the only difference is you don't get the fingerprint authentication.)

    3. Re:Turnabouts fair play by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      This is why I'm happy with cash and credit cards. Credit cards may be tracking me as well but every iteration of higher technology just becomes more and more invasive. It really saps my desire for other payment methods.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    4. Re:Turnabouts fair play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So pay cash.

    5. Re:Turnabouts fair play by martinX · · Score: 1

      Which one is the fifth. CommBank, ANZ, Westpac, National and ...

      --
      When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
    6. Re:Turnabouts fair play by thegarbz · · Score: 0

      If you put your credit card in your phone case, the only difference is you don't get the fingerprint authentication.)

      Credit card? How quaint. Some of the banks in Australia will sell you a tiny NFC sticker which you can stick on the back of your phone or inside the case (or inside the battery compartment if you have one of those). No need for a big bulky credit card.

      This is unlikely to be anti-competitive but it is the pain in the arse that we have come to love from Apple. Arbitrarily locked down hardware which prevents third parties from doing things with the phone. I'm half surprised they don't just open up the hardware and then just kick all the banks out of the app store saying "duplicates functionality of Apple Pay and we don't like that we don't get paid for it so there!"

    7. Re:Turnabouts fair play by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      None. They are called "The Big Four" for a reason.

    8. Re:Turnabouts fair play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once upon a time, St George. Now it's just a Westpac subsidiary, of course.

    9. Re:Turnabouts fair play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a big bulky credit card.

      Finally, a point-of-sale transaction solution that properly addresses the needs of late-stage ALS sufferers.

    10. Re:Turnabouts fair play by kevmeister · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If Apple wants Banks to cooperate by opening their payment network to iPhones , Apple must open up the iPhone NFC to mobile wallets from Banks. A competition commission cannot say its anti-competitive for incumbents to block Apple Pay but its not anti-competitive for Apple to not allow access to the NFC chip in an iPhone.

      Apple's system explicitly collects NO extraneous information on transactions. Banks hate this as they had seen mobile device transactions as a chance to collect a lot of valuable data. Sellers also hoped to build added piles of marketing data that Apple Pay won't provide because its design simply does not have access to it..

      --
      Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired
    11. Re:Turnabouts fair play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      St George was never a major player outside NSW, there have only ever been 4 in the Big 4

    12. Re:Turnabouts fair play by martinX · · Score: 1

      I know. The AC above said "b) There aren't billions of banks... there are really five big ones. " I was curious who the new player was. Maybe he just got excited and counted someone twice.

      --
      When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
    13. Re:Turnabouts fair play by mjwx · · Score: 0

      If Apple wants Banks to cooperate by opening their payment network to iPhones , Apple must open up the iPhone NFC to mobile wallets from Banks. A competition commission cannot say its anti-competitive for incumbents to block Apple Pay but its not anti-competitive for Apple to not allow access to the NFC chip in an iPhone.

      Actually, if Apple wants the restrictions lifted, they need to become their own bank. This means complying with PCI (Payment Card Industry) regulations as well as local regulations in each market they operate as a bank in. This is why smaller banks tend to stay in only a few markets whilst giants like Citi or HSBC have global reach.

      Right now, Apple Pay (and Google's equivalent) is just a wrapper for a credit card. That means another issuer that is ensuring compliance with PCI and local regulations, this also gives them all the power they need to impose their own restrictions. Until you pay money into an Apple account like you would any other current or credit account then Apple doesn't get a say in any restrictions they have imposed on them.

      The problem is, Apple doesn't want to have the bother of complying with regulations. So they'll complain loudly but end up crawling back with their tail between their legs because they wont become a bank.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    14. Re:Turnabouts fair play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Apple wants Banks to cooperate by opening their payment network to iPhones , Apple must open up the iPhone NFC to mobile wallets from Banks.

      No, they don't. That's why they're all whining.

    15. Re:Turnabouts fair play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Credit card? How quaint. Some of the banks in Australia will sell you a tiny NFC sticker which you can stick on the back of your phone or inside the case (or inside the battery compartment if you have one of those). No need for a big bulky credit card.

      Ooo, a sticker - how secure.

  3. It does work though by bobm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even though I'm giving up on the Apple Watch and computers I do find the Apple Pay to be pretty convenient.

    Considering the time delay on the new chip cards its much faster and I don't have to fake a signature anymore.

    1. Re:It does work though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yup - bank cards work, loyalty cards work and coupons work. The retailers are creating a smoke screen for "we want the ability to invade the user's privacy, and ApplePay doesn't let us get at that data".

    2. Re:It does work though by tlambert · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Compared to what? I personally find it much more convenient that my non-Apple mobile phone works absolutely everywhere which has an NFC reader without a specific negotiation between a bank or merchant benefiting only Apple.

      I find it convenient that your NFC phone works that way, too.

      I'm the person sitting in the car across the parking lot, staging a pre-play attack against your NFC device while you are doing your transaction, because there's not a one time cryptographic nonce, like in the Apple Pay system, which would prevent the attack.

      That's me waving at you now.

      Yes, your latest purchase is going to show up twice on your statement, and the amount deducted twice. Thanks for your contribution! You can take it up with your merchant when the bill comes; your money is already in a bank halfway across the planet.

      By the way: I also plan on an attack on the chip-and-pin system at the same store, if you switch back to using cards, but I'm going to have to actually sit down and case the joint a bit, before I decide which of the 9 identified (so far) ways to hack a chip-and-pin transaction.

      Don't you wish you could go back to the days of the old fashioned skimmers, where instead of you eating the losses (because "the new system is so much more secure"), the banks and credit card companies had to eat them?

      Cheers!

    3. Re:It does work though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You realise that Apple Pay is an implementation of bog standard NFC payments, right?

      The retailers aren't fighting against having to support something new (they already support ApplePay through standard NFC terminals), they're fighting against the fact that bog standard NFC payments offer them no way to collect user data, and they want a different thing from the standard.

      The only "artificial restriction" with ApplePay is that the bank must 1) provide artwork to Apple to display a picture of the card in the wallet, and 2) provide a method of initially authenticating a user as owning that card, so that you can't just scan anyone's card and register it with ApplePay.

      These are basically the same restrictions as any other phone NFC payments implementation.

    4. Re:It does work though by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Go your hardest. The banks are liable for this kind of fraud in most sane countries. But thanks for your concern.

      In the mean time the rates of transaction fraud have plummeted all over the world year on year, even after the introduction of contactless, and even after the introduction of systems like Google Pay which worked just fine with NFC terminals in Australia before Google closed the loophole that allowed people to use it in countries where it hadn't been released yet.

      All countries except America that is. Quick draw a line here to prove you are you, that's HIGHLY SECURE. Thanks.

    5. Re:It does work though by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Even though I'm giving up on the Apple Watch and computers I do find the Apple Pay to be pretty convenient.

      When you say 'Apple Pay' do you really mean contactless payments? Because we've had contactless payments for years before Apple Pay played 'me too' with the same tech. There is simply no reason to use the Apple version of contactless payments when all the others do a better job, already exist, and don't rely on the Apple ecosystem to function.

  4. Not an Aussie but... by b0bby · · Score: 2

    I don't know who in this fight I dislike more. Sure, Apple is going to be gouging the retailers and banks. On the other hand, the only reason that the retailers and banks want to access the NFC chip is so they can try to lock people into their own systems, which may well be more painful to use and certainly will involve tracking of purchasing habits etc. Now, it might be useful to just wave your phone when doing a return rather than keeping track of a receipt, but I wouldn't trust either side further than I could throw them.

    1. Re:Not an Aussie but... by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      On the other hand, the only reason that the retailers and banks want to access the NFC chip is so they can try to lock people into their own systems

      Yeah god forbid the bank I do business with provides an app that allows me to pay via that bank using my phone. I mean it's much better having yet another party in the process skimming money off the top. It's an absolute win for consumers that Apple arbitrarily gets to decide exactly which bank's customers can and can't use NFC at which retailer's terminals. Imagine if *anyone* could do that. It would be utter anarchy.

      Side note: I wonder what any of your comment has to do with this case given that retailers can quite as easily access your credit card details before and after, and the banks know either way. This is really only a case of in Australia, where any idiot merchant can provide you with a credit card being upset that the iPhone is a locked in market based on who gives Apple extra money.

      In the mean time I'm quite happy swiping my non-Apple phone on a non-Apple approved NFC terminal at a non-Apple approved merchant who deducts money from my non-Apple approved bank, and have it just work.

    2. Re:Not an Aussie but... by jonwil · · Score: 1

      I AM an Aussie and as much as I hate the greedy big banks, I still support them over Apple in this fight.

      I can tell you that the banks are putting a lot of effort into making their stuff (including their online apps) easier and faster to use. They already support NFC payment on Android and at least one bank supports using an NFC enabled phone along with the app to withdraw money from any of their NFC-enabled ATMs.

      Unlike the backwards thinking US banks (where paper checks are still commonly used as a method of payment) the Australian banks have been very innovative in the online and tech space, introducing the worlds first online bill payment service (which lets customers of nearly any bank in the country pay bills and invoices of all sorts directly from their online banking) and being an early adopter of EFTPOS technology (which lets customers of any bank pay directly out of their bank account at any merchant that accepts EFTPOS)

    3. Re:Not an Aussie but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah god forbid the bank I do business with provides an app that allows me to pay via that bank using my phone. I mean it's much better having yet another party in the process skimming money off the top.

      Yes, absolutely god forbid that, please!

      I don't want 10000 different bank IT departments all writing an app, each of which has to be perfectly secure. I'd much rather one single standard (as NFC payments is) implemented well by my phone manufacturer. That way bugs get fixed properly and promptly, and retailers don't get all my private info.

      Merchants don't need to be "Apple Approved" as you make out - any NFC terminal will work fine.

      Banks need "approval", where by "approval" they mean "you need to give us artwork for your credit and debit cards so that the payment screen looks like the card you're actually paying with".

    4. Re:Not an Aussie but... by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      The only winning move is not to play.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    5. Re:Not an Aussie but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      APPLE PAY DOES NOT COST THE RETAILER. Repeat that after me again. If they can support NFC with their current payment gateway, they can take the less than 15 minutes to get apple pay approved. Authorize.net does it, and it's pretty easy. There is no gouging, except with the banks, and given their large size (yes, even your local bank), I have no problem with this.

  5. So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Old97 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Apple Pay does not cost the merchants a thing. It also does not keep them from using loyalty cards and such. I have such a loyalty card from Walgreens. It's in my Apple Phone with my credit cards. When I'm checking out it pops up and I scan it and then swipe to a credit card and scan it to pay. Walgreen's gets their data, I get points/ discounts and Apple Pay securely handles the transaction. I only need my watch to pay. So why can't these merchants just copy what Walgreen's does? If they they don't know how then I also don't trust them to secure my credit card information so I'm glad I use Apple Pay. The merchants and these banks don't want customer freedom or choice. They want more control over the customer. I don't trust them to secure my information or credit card information so I don't want them to be able to bypass Apple's security. Target? TJ Maxx? Kohls? Home Depot? All kinds of stores have had major breaches.

    --
    Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
    1. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by berj · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. Apple pay is ridiculously easy and convenient. Works every time and it couldn't be easier. What's more nobody can surf over my shoulder for my pin and the retailer never sees my cc number or even my name.

      The retailers have shown time and time again that they are incapable (or unwilling) to secure CC data. Why give them yet another opportunity to cock things up?

    2. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I have such a loyalty card from Walgreens.

      Yeah I wonder how it got there. I wonder if it just magically works why the banks and consumer associations are throwing money at this.

      So why can't these merchants just copy what Walgreen's does?

      I wonder if it's something to do with Walgreens having a major first mover advantage and a really strong bargaining position being the first company to get their card on the Apple Pay platform. Can your mom and pop store do that? They can with Android.

      If they they don't know how

      Oh they know, they just don't like the terms and conditions.

      The merchants and these banks don't want customer freedom or choice. They want more control over the customer.

      Nope, they just don't want to share their loyalty details with 3rd parties, and I for one would like to do business between myself, a company, and involve only my bank with as few 3rd parties who gain a lot by strongarming their way into the middle of the process. My bank's app works really well on my phone and it works in terminals all over the world without needing some magical approval from the device manufacturer.

    3. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      way to completely NOT understand how apple pay works. Apple takes an interchange fee from the card issuer, this means by using apple pay you have added an additional layer of fees and in the long run there is only ONE group that will be paying for that and that is the consumer with higher bank fees.

    4. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you do realise Apple has also had multiple breaches yet you trust them?

    5. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by sl3xd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So it wouldn't surprise me at all that the banks want to negotiate a lower service fee (much like the UK and Russia have done).

      I have zero sympathy for the stores, however, whose motivation is clearly to track their consumers, and sell the invormation. You know, little things like tracking what we spend, what we buy, how much we spend, where, what time, and so on. Very much like how in the days before EMV, the magstripe on a credit/debit card was (and still is) used to track consumers in the US.

      It's shockingly invasive (and creepy) to start getting advertisements for baby needs the same week I bought my first Baby bottles in anticipation of my firstborn. My transaction information was clearly bought and sold. Who needs Big Brother to watch when every major store and payment provider is just as invasive.

      --
      -- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
    6. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stores have no issue with tracking what you buy and spend, that is what the loyalty cards are for and just about any store/chain of significance has one.

    7. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by tlambert · · Score: 1

      you do realise Apple has also had multiple breaches yet you trust them?

      So why don't the people doing all the bitching utilize one of those breach methods to insert their data into the Apple Pay wallet? Problem solved, right?

    8. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The merchants want competition because having just Apple means they are at their mercy regarding fees and other costs.

    9. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I trust Apple in this regard because Apple's implementation of NFC payments does not involve the data ever being sent to Apple, so no amount of breaching Apple is going to reveal my transactions.

    10. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The merchants don't pay fees to Apple, and have no agreements with Apple. They implement bog standard NFC payments, and it "just works", because that's all ApplePay is - an implementation of NFC payments.

    11. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Apple pay is ridiculously easy and convenient. Works every time and it couldn't be easier. What's more nobody can surf over my shoulder for my pin and the retailer never sees my cc number or even my name.

      The retailers have shown time and time again that they are incapable (or unwilling) to secure CC data. Why give them yet another opportunity to cock things up?

      Ok I'm gathering from comments here that the banks in the US don't have a similar contactless payments system already?
      Here in Australia our banks had contactless, swipe and go cards for years before Apple. So when Apple released Apple Pay it was like WTF, we've had this for years.
      So it's not that Apple pay is good, it's that your banks are shit and are stuck in the 80's?

    12. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by berj · · Score: 1

      Actually. I'm in Canada so we were in much the same boat as you. though I travel extensively and often in the US and I am constantly dumbfounded at how... primitive.. the system is.

      That said.. Apple pay is just another level of security. Contactless cards can be used by anyone who has the card (up to a per-transaction limit of $100 at most places, if I'm not mistaken). With Apple pay I still need to use my fingerprint to authorize which is nice. I also find it easier than rifling through my wallet to find the card I want whereas I always have my phone closer to hand than my wallet and I can very easily choose the proper card right on the phone. Certainly it's not as huge a difference for those of us in the 21st century of payment systems but for me, in daily use, it's a non-zero improvement.

      It's been a while since I looked at the specifications but I'm pretty sure that with Apple Pay the actual card number is replaced with a device-unique token so that the merchant never sees or transmits your actual card number. I don't think that's the case with contactless cards (but I'm not certain about that last bit).

    13. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Gussington · · Score: 1

      That said.. Apple pay is just another level of security. Contactless cards can be used by anyone who has the card (up to a per-transaction limit of $100 at most places, if I'm not mistaken).

      My bank had an NFC phone app before Apple Pay was released, so if you need that level of security it is already there. Also the bank covers the loss of contactless transaction, so even if someone takes your card you're covered. Also you have the choice of the free card, or the app, or both. Apple offers no such choice.

      With Apple pay I still need to use my fingerprint to authorize which is nice.

      From a Ux perspective it's an extra step which is considered worse.

      I also find it easier than rifling through my wallet to find the card I want whereas I always have my phone closer to hand than my wallet and I can very easily choose the proper card right on the phone.

      Most people here have their daily transaction card in their phone cover so same process, minus the fingerprint step which is more labour for no real benefit. I keep my wallet in my front pocket, with phone in the other. Contactless goes through leather so it's exactly the same effort to swipe (actually easier when you don't have to scan your fingerprint)

      t I'm pretty sure that with Apple Pay the actual card number is replaced with a device-unique token so that the merchant never sees or transmits your actual card number. I don't think that's the case with contactless cards (but I'm not certain about that last bit).

      Tokens are standard in the payments world. The card readers in the store are owned by the bank (or their agents) and do the same thing. The merchant never sees the number.
      I've had some experience in the payments world (not a lot), and nothing Apple is doing is new (unless you live somewhere with 1980's banking tech).

    14. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by berj · · Score: 1

      My bank had an NFC phone app before Apple Pay was released, so if you need that level of security it is already there. Also the bank covers the loss of contactless transaction, so even if someone takes your card you're covered. Also you have the choice of the free card, or the app, or both. Apple offers no such choice.

      How so? I have a card and I have my iPhone. I can use either.

      As for security.. someone can steal my card and I have to deal with everything that goes along with that. Someone could even still clone the mag stripe or write down the number and CVV code from the back. My phone gives out none of that. Sadly we are not in a world where I can leave my (ridiculously insecure) credit cards at home. But I hope we get there soon.

      From a Ux perspective it's an extra step which is considered worse

      How so? It's not an extra step. I hold my phone up to the reader with my thumb already in the right place and it authorizes. I don't even need to unlock the phone.. I just hold it to the reader, it shows my cards and if my thumb is in the right place.. presto.. payment authorized. no extra steps or apps needed.

      Contactless goes through leather so it's exactly the same effort to swipe (actually easier when you don't have to scan your fingerprint)

      I have four different contactless cards to choose from (Debit, Credit, Work Canadian dollars credit, Work US Dollars Credit). Mostly I use my debit but I use all of the others frequently (multiple times a week) so I can't just hold up my wallet and hope for the best (or assume my phone case.. which I dont even have.. will have the right card). Also the work cards are from different banks than my personal ones so having to use different apps from different banks would be a pain.

      And see above. The only reason the fingerprint would be extra labour is if the phone (either software or hardware) is badly designed. How exactly do your NFC payment app and/or fingerprint reader work that using your fingerprint is an extra step?

      nothing Apple is doing is new

      That is almost always the case. What is generally true, however, is that they find a way to do it *better*.

    15. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Gussington · · Score: 1

      How so? I have a card and I have my iPhone. I can use either.

      Apple issues you cards? Or you have to get that from the bank? If the bank does cards and phone apps, what value is Apple adding?

      As for security.. someone can steal my card and I have to deal with everything that goes along with that.

      True, so if you are that paranoid leave it at home in the safe and use your banking app (which works on phones from more than one vendor)

      Someone could even still clone the mag stripe or write down the number and CVV code from the back.

      How? The current system involves you tapping the card yourself, it never leaves your possession, how does anyone ever get to see the stripe or the CVV? And since all our card are smart cards, stripe cloning is useless on it's own.

      My phone gives out none of that. Sadly we are not in a world where I can leave my (ridiculously insecure) credit cards at home. But I hope we get there soon.

      We can in Australia, because our banks have had contactless payment apps for years. This is why Apple will not takeover here, because nothing they offer is new in this market

      The only reason the fingerprint would be extra labour is if the phone (either software or hardware) is badly designed.

      My daughter has an iPhone. The fingerprint reader works most of the time first go, but not always. To me that is less good design than not needing a fingerprint in the first place.

      That is almost always the case. What is generally true, however, is that they find a way to do it *better*.

      Maybe, but I'm still waiting to see what is better with Apple Pay than my bank's apps which do exactly the same thing, but on multiple types of devices.

  6. What's in your Apple Pay Wallet? by rexbinary · · Score: 1

    While not any app can access the NFC in an iPhone directly, any entity can leverage the NFC via Apple Pay. I have plenty of reward cards, even tickets, airline tickets, etc. in my Apple Pay Wallet. What Apple requires for an entity to be in the Apple Wallet I don't know, but I don't believe they are stifling innovation. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I just haven't heard of anyone being turned down to be part of Apple Pay.

  7. Loyalty Scheme by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A Loyalty scheme is where everyone gets charged 10% more, so they few who have a card can then get 10% back after they have bought are large number of items.

    Here's how the BEST loyalty scheme works: Shop around, you will ALWAYS be better off paying the lowest price and play one retailer off against another, you may get a cheaper price AND loyalty card points.

  8. an oozing sore in the privacy skin by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    They are basically asking apple to convert something that lets the consumer manage their own privacy and connectivity to an oozing sore exposed to any NFC bacteria the stores want to throw at it. Basically NFC versions of cookies and indelible cookies to track you and your purchases.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:an oozing sore in the privacy skin by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      I have to be honest, this story, is the very first time I felt like dropping Android for iPhone. I dislike NFC spying. Apple sure seems to be going, 'we sell you privacy, we don't sell your privacy route'. Keep it up and they will definitely have at least one first time Apple buyer, I am sure, I will not be alone.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  9. translation by markdavis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >" they believe access to the NFC functionality in the iPhone would allow retailers to provide "a richer and more convenient customer experience."

    Translation:

    "We are upset that Apple might not share customer identity and other information with us because we want it. We have a right to track our customers and what they buy and who they are and etc."

    Um yeah. I will still probably just use cash, thanks.

  10. Greed by SmaryJerry · · Score: 1

    Apple innovates/patents/buys out the functionality to get Apple Pay working so they can dominate it It makes sense. Does it mean other companies get to use it? No. Not unless a government says they have a license it at a reasonable price because it is a core functionality or whatever legal jargon they use to require you to license a feature.

  11. Deja vu by seoras · · Score: 2

    We saw this already in the US when Apple Pay was first launched.
    It looks like a last ditch effort by that Aussie banking cartel to prevent Apple from giving the consumer a fast, safe & convenient customer experience WITHOUT handing over personal data for tracking purposes.
    Not only did customers switch banks for Apple Pay they also stopped shopping at retailers who boycotted it.
    It took a year before those who opposed it crumbled. I predict the same in Australia.
    The consumer has all the real power here and voting with your wallet is still very effective.

    This isn't about Apple. This is about data collection on consumers.
    I only wish Apple would use their cash war chest to lobby more to get the necessary legislation to protect public privacy.

    1. Re:Deja vu by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It looks like a last ditch effort by that Aussie banking cartel to prevent Apple from giving the consumer a fast, safe & convenient customer experience WITHOUT handing over personal data for tracking purposes.

      Oh please.
      a) Australia is nothing like the USA. We've actually had this system here and working for the best part of 6 years.
      b) The banks end up with the same tracking data regardless. They are the ones handing over the money. There's nothing they don't see here.

      Not only did customers switch banks for Apple Pay they also stopped shopping at retailers who boycotted it.

      Banks will happily give you discrete NFC stickers to stick to your phone, no Apple support required. Any bank will let you pay at any NFC terminals on an Android device via their app, no Apple required. Also Chip+Pin+Contactless is prolific here so there is no additional convenience to using Apple Pay, unlike in the USA. When ApplePay was announced most of Australia collectively scratched their heads at the marketing. There's also only a few major banks and options for cards so the vast majority of people don't carry a massive fist full of credit cards with them.

      I predict your prediction will be wrong because you assume that every other country is like the US rather than the direct opposite. Remember if something happens in the payments sector in the USA it literally does not translate to any other country because you guys are unique, occasionally in a good way but often in the WTF are they STILL doing THAT!!!! kind of way.

    2. Re:Deja vu by Gussington · · Score: 1

      We saw this already in the US when Apple Pay was first launched.

      Nope, the Australian banking industry is vastly different.

      It looks like a last ditch effort by that Aussie banking cartel to prevent Apple from giving the consumer a fast, safe & convenient customer experience WITHOUT handing over personal data for tracking purposes.

      Cartel? Really? The banks here had contactless payments for years before Apple. It's already fast, and safe, and convenient, and free, (no $1000 phone required). What value are Apple adding by playing me too? Remember Australia is not like the US, our banks are robust, well regulated and tech savvy already. Our banking tech is generations ahead of the US.

      Not only did customers switch banks for Apple Pay they also stopped shopping at retailers who boycotted it.

      Because the US banking system is stuck in the 80's. That doesn't apply here. My banks all are more advanced than Apple in this space, why would I as a customer choose Apple over my existing bank?

      It took a year before those who opposed it crumbled. I predict the same in Australia.

      Because like most Americans you are unaware that things work differently in other places.

      The consumer has all the real power here and voting with your wallet is still very effective.

      This isn't about Apple. This is about data collection on consumers. I only wish Apple would use their cash war chest to lobby more to get the necessary legislation to protect public privacy.

      What? You're talking out of your hat. Card privacy is already strictly regulated here, Apple are bringing nothing new, merely trying to get in on the action.

    3. Re:Deja vu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But consumers HAVE a fast, safe & convenient customer experience WITHOUT handing over personal data for tracking purposes, have had for 2 years before Apple Pay was a thing, UNLESS you use an iPhone, in which case apple insists on their cut, and your data

  12. f' NFC and Apple Pay- go Bitcoin/Z.Cash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What we need is to regain control over the transfer of value and to stifle governments/banks/big corporations from dictating who can and can't interact in commerce. The Wikileaks ban was the perfect demonstration of the danger of Apple Pay, the banks, and centralized payment processing systems like Visa/Master Card/Discover/American Express/etc being in control is a bad idea. The US government intimidated payment processors like PayPal and Visa/Master Card/Discover/and Bank of America to not do business with Wikileaks. If it wasn't for Bitcoin Wikileaks would have had no almost no means of accepting donations.

    Fraud is another great example of why retailers and consumers should want financial independents from these centralized organizations. When government/the banks/and payment networks like PayPal/credit card companies fail us we have no good options. Bitcoins opens the market to competition and has resulted in the first world-wide means of transferring money without having to ask government for permission, or banks, or other systems where there is somebody who can dictate whether or not you can make a transaction-or even exist (posses an account).

    New Hampshire is leading the way in Bitcoin adoption with numerous Bitcoin vending machines spread throughout the state, growing acceptance in the brick and mortar world, and exchange between individuals (Keene, NH exceeds that of the big cities in Bitcoin accepts on a per capita basis). This is the result of what can happen when those who believe in liberty and freedom get together in one place. New Hampshire got voted on and 20,000 activist principled libertarians are migrating to the state as part of the Free State Project (and many more as part of the Shire Society and similar related movements) to impact political change. We're fighting off draconian laws hindering crypto currencies in New Hampshire and getting bad laws passed undone (http://freekeene.com/2016/10/07/nh-state-house-crypto-commission-member-to-file-bill-repealing-lone-regulation-of-cryptocurrency/). We've won multiple NH supreme court rulings, and every week there is lots of political activism going on from civil disobedience to people running (and getting elected) for office. Check out http://www.freekeene.com/ for news covering New Hampshire and http://www.freetalklive.com/ for the world's largest principled libertarian radio program (airs on hundreds of stations around the US/world).

  13. Google Pay by dohzer · · Score: 1

    Is this Apple Pay thing similar to that Google phone pay thing that came out and then vanished about six years ago?

  14. What is not being talked about - profit for banks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    One of the real reasons for the Aus banks take on this is that they do not like the payment conditions for transactions that Apple dictate. Reasons why they don't like them (there are many) are that:- 1) Apple get the fee 2) Banks cannot charge their customers for the fee (directly) 3) (and this is the big one) - the banks cannot set outrageous fees for the use of NFC payments charged direct to the merchant or customer. What the banks really want here is to be able to dictate the terms and specify their owns fees for use - they Aus banks have a well documented history of outrageous and excessive fees charged to both merchants and customers as well as huge interest rates on Credit cards etc.. Sometimes they are taken to task over these but nothing really changes. They are quite explicit in there statements regarding this that the want the ability to set/charge fees as they see fit (and you can guarantee that any fees they set will far outweigh their cost of processing etc. - this has been abundantly clear for many years with all their transaction fees and they refuse to change).

  15. Depends on Australia Anti-Trust law by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

    If the banks are not currently ALLOWED to collectively negotiate with Apple because of Australia anti-trust laws, I believe that this request for an exemption should be granted. On the other hand, if the banks are actually asking the government to force Apple to only collectively negotiate with the banks, I would say that the request should be denied.

    This looks like something very similar to Microsoft bundling Internet Explorer with Windows. The difference being that Microsoft put the competing browser out of business, while Apple is attempting to prevent a competing application from coming into existence.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  16. Android Pay works totally fine here, so....? by AbRASiON · · Score: 2

    I mean I don't like banks but I'd assume this is Apples doing? They must be pushing for something ridiculous in some way, because Android Pay appears to use the standard Pay-Wave technology of normal cards.
    I'm normally very much a luddite on this stuff but I thought I'd give it a shot and I hate to admit, it's genuinely better than cash, purely from a "wow, it's even quicker than cash" perspective.
    (I've *always* hated cards normally, because I'm stuck behind idiots taking forever with PIN# business or swiping a different card, etc)

    None the less it's literally faster than cash, it's a very very fast transaction and (to my knowledge) any place with Pay-Wave (very common) works fine.
    I believe Pay-Wave is just our contactless card thing, you guys might call it something else.

    https://www.google.com.au/sear...

    (NOTE: I hear you guys in the US have only just got the card tap and pay stuff? We have it in I would say at least 90% of places in the metro / city areas and maybe 60 or 70% out in the country regions)

    1. Re:Android Pay works totally fine here, so....? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Apple Pay uses the standard system too. It works just fine on any terminal that supports contactless EMV payments as it presents a one time generated card number and ID to the terminal.

      The trick is that Apple isn't a bank, so it needs to forward the withdrawal to a real account provided by a bank. ANZ has supported this for more than half a year in Australia, it works exactly as expect. You just tap your phone on the reader with your finger on the fingerprint scanner and the transaction completes.

      The think the banks and the retails don't like about this is that it blinds their ability to track the consumer. The retailer sees a random number not a trackable CreditCard#, and the bank can't see what retailer is being dealt with. Apple pay is all about keeping your purchase data private (except of course Apple knows what you've bought and when your bought it).

      This isn't a technology issue, this is simply the banks trying to force Apple to let their shitty built in Apps access the inbuilt contactless card 'emulator'. Which means they can get back to tracking the user's purchasing details. (Big) retailers probably don't like it because they can't track a non-loyalty card based user only their credit card data.

  17. No competition for Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > This isn't about Apple. This is about data collection on consumers.

    No, it is about competition.

    Apple pay is to Apple as Internet Explorer is to Microsoft (think 1990s)

  18. EMV Payment Tokenisation Specification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Compared to what? I personally find it much more convenient that my non-Apple mobile phone works absolutely everywhere which has an NFC reader without a specific negotiation between a bank or merchant benefiting only Apple.

    I find it convenient that your NFC phone works that way, too.

    I'm the person sitting in the car across the parking lot, staging a pre-play attack against your NFC device while you are doing your transaction, because there's not a one time cryptographic nonce, like in the Apple Pay system, which would prevent the attack.

    There's nothing special about Apple Pay when it comes to security: it uses the EMV Payment Tokenisation Specification. Anyone can implement it to get the same standard of security.

    Why (some) other payment operators don't use it, I do not know.

    Regards, I want any system to use an open, licenseable standard, either industry-accepted or ISO.

  19. I _am_ an Ausie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can say g'day real proper like mate. Struff.

    And much as I hate Apple, I hate the big four banks more. A more cosy little quad-opoly you couldn't hope to own.

    As a customer, I don't want to have to use this app in that store, or exclusive discounts here but not there. Just shut up, give me a (relatively) good deal and take my money (and commission) - it's not like you're offering me anything special for it.

    And that's before we get into you tracking me. For which reason I use more and more cash. Since I've no choice, I'd rather have the one tracker than multiple - at least I've got a better chance of white noise.