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Most Scientists 'Can't Replicate Studies By Their Peers' (bbc.com)

Science is facing a "reproducibility crisis" where more than two-thirds of researchers have tried and failed to reproduce another scientist's experiments, research suggests. From a report: This is frustrating clinicians and drug developers who want solid foundations of pre-clinical research to build upon. From his lab at the University of Virginia's Centre for Open Science, immunologist Dr Tim Errington runs The Reproducibility Project, which attempted to repeat the findings reported in five landmark cancer studies. "The idea here is to take a bunch of experiments and to try and do the exact same thing to see if we can get the same results." You could be forgiven for thinking that should be easy. Experiments are supposed to be replicable. The authors should have done it themselves before publication, and all you have to do is read the methods section in the paper and follow the instructions. Sadly nothing, it seems, could be further from the truth.

32 of 331 comments (clear)

  1. Fake science/sloppy science by dave3548 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you can't reproduce it, it's either fake or you were just being sloppy. Either way, it's no wonder ordinary civilians have doubts.

    1. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you can't reproduce it, it's either fake or you were just being sloppy. Either way, it's no wonder ordinary civilians have doubts.

      Or it took years to perfect the experiment technique. It took me 2.5 years to get my injury model and staining protocol optimized for my PhD research. A fair amount of success comes down to technique, not the written protocol.

    2. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by borcharc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Then why not describe the novel techniques you developed to complete the research in the paper? Any process that is claimed to require special abilities is actually one the needs training.

    3. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by Baron_Yam · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have to disagree. To me, "a fair amount of success comes down to technique, not the written protocol" means you're not documenting your protocol adequately.

      It would certainly be fair to say that some manual actions could take a lot of practice before the experimenter would likely be skilled enough to perform them, but there shouldn't be anything missing from the protocol documentation that someone attempting to reproduce the results would have to learn from scratch.

      Excepting well-established standard practices of the field, of course. You don't have to teach from kindergarten up to post-grad.

      I'm no bio researcher, but I am an IT guy and we could fill a library with books on substandard documentation making it difficult for others to follow in our footsteps.

    4. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by Thud457 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This pretty sums up my experiences reproducing experiments in the lab : ob. Electron Band Structure In Germanium, My Ass

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    5. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by ranton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you can't reproduce it, it's either fake or you were just being sloppy. Either way, it's no wonder ordinary civilians have doubts.

      Or perhaps this is the reason why you need to build a consensus among many scientists with similar results before you put much validity in any cutting edge research. All research is going to include assumptions, specialized techniques, biases, random variability of data, and many other factors which can reduce the validity of its conclusions.

      Your comment reeks of a double standard where if scientists cannot come to a consensus they are being fake or sloppy, but if they point out an overwhelming consensus they are not being scientific because a consensus shouldn't matter.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    6. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by sjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If it's not a standard protocol, why isn't it documented?

    7. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by Dthief · · Score: 4, Interesting

      sometimes thats done purposefully so that you can get to the next paper before the other person. /p not a good system but I know plenty of researchers who put in enough to explain what they did, but not enough so you could reproduce it without a bit of effort/research yourself. /p definitely not the ideal, but people care about getting the next paper first so they can advance their career. publish or perish

      --
      www.RacquetUp.org - Helping Detroit Youth
    8. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by Salgak1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      . . . or that an unknown and unrecognized variable is at play.

      Mind you, this goes back 40 years, but in my undergrad days, we were required to do a needle powder mount of a ground mineral, and use it in an x-ray diffractometry device. in order to identify the mineral by diffraction patterns.

      The year my class did it, we were **all** off by about 5-6% from the reference shots, made years earlier (the sample sources remained the same). Turns out the manufacturer of the adhesive we used for the powder mounts (it was office-type rubber cement) had undergone a minor formula change, they had a new source of one ingredient, which had some metal dust contamination.

      We had students doing the same experiment for 20 years previously, used identical techniques, and we STILL got different results. And we wouldn't have figured it out, if one of the TAs recalled that she had to get a new jar of rubber cement, the old one had solidified. . . . and it still took comparative chemical analyses of two different needle mounts of the same sample, but different years, to identify the difference.

    9. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by Dissenter · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I suppose that's a key element to the issue this article is discussing. If only the standard methods are in the publication and some novel augmentation of a process is necessary to produce those results, there is missing data and it could not be reproduced. Too many people are anxious to publish simply because it is part of their job to do so, but if some novel component is being persued through patent or other non-disclosed intellectual property, the publication should probably be either post-poned or not submitted. It's an odd catch 22 for folks in this area of research. I tend to agree that publishing something incomplete, however, simply extends ignorance rather than contributing to the education of your peers.

      --

      Dissenter
      "There is no knowledge that is not power."

    10. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by Dread_ed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly right. If it is not reproducible, it is not "Science," period.

      If, as others have written, your experiment is so finely predicated on the experimental set-up (using certain equipment, preparing samples or data in a certain way, etc.) then you need to document that so specifically that anyone can repeat it. Why, you ask, with an dumbfounded and incredulous look on your face? Because you could be introducing very specific bias in the way you set up your experiment. If it only works when you do it *just like this,* maybe the reason is that the experimental result is a direct consequence of your set-up and not an actual measurement of naturally occurring phenomena. I like to call it "measuring your equipment."

      If you cannot, through your extensive documentation, re-create the experiment in another lab with completely different humans what you have published is essentially science fiction.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    11. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by Dread_ed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Woah, I am confused by what you just wrote.

      You seem to be saying that if a bunch of scientists agree that *this* (whatever *this* is) is the way it is, but none of the experiments that prove that *this* is the way it is are reproducible, then we should just go with the consensus?

      Soooo, Galileo had some experiments he could back up, but the other scientists at the time had a consensus view of the cosmos. Their results were not reproducible, his were. You seem to be arguing for heliocentrism based on consensus.

      Essentially, your introduction of the concept of consensus based on results with a total lack of any comments on how reproducible those results are leaves me wondering just what you think the scientific method is predicated on.

      I don't care how "cutting edge" the research is. If it can be successfully reproduced and is based on sound principles I would consider it first before any "consensus" based on what a bunch of people think but can't back up with reproducible results.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    12. Re:Fake science/sloppy science by elgatozorbas · · Score: 3, Funny

      we could fill a library with books on substandard documentation

      There is some irony in there somewhere...

  2. Re:s/drug trials/climate change/g by evilRhino · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Drug trials are limited in scope because there are restrictions on the patents of the studied compounds, which greatly limits the capacity to replicate the trial. Multiple studies have been done on climate, which is more open access.

  3. Reproducibility is hard. by FellowConspirator · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the experimental protocols listed in a paper, it is not unusual to have a method's section that is more or less an executive summary rather than a very detailed account of the underlying protocol. This is for two reasons: to great a level of detail leads to a methods section as big as the publication that the paper appears in, and second because many protocols more or less boil down to using a particular series kit or out-sourced lab service. Most journals require data supplements where an author must share their datasets in electronic form as an online addendum to the publication. I would support a similar requirement for a long-form protocol for reproduction of the study.

    That said, some protocols necessarily take a lot of money, special equipment, a carefully selected population of volunteers, and time. Reproducing some studies can be outright impractical.

    In computational biology and other computational extensions of the physical science, the reproducibility basically comes in the form of requirements to provide the software and raw data for a study. It's easy for the individual that compiles this information to verify that they get the same result as the one they report in the article. The concern there boils down to the provenance of the source data, which may be from registries, public data sets, or some combination of public and private data.

    1. Re:Reproducibility is hard. by RyanFenton · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why are we still using printed journals?

      Why is the amount of space a report takes up still an issue?

      Details are important. If you want a short version, then make a summary, but don't cut out the detail available to do that.

      In terms of ascii/unicode text, we're not going to run out of bytes to explain important scientific details.

      Heck - make videos of the processes, mention part numbers, and even show mistakes that you encountered along the way in your notes! Video hosting is free, and shouldn't be going away anytime soon. Making a process replication video should be a normal thing.

      If you're spending so much time anyway, so much of your life in these studies, what's the value in holding back important information?

      Ryan Fenton

    2. Re:Reproducibility is hard. by ooloorie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In computational biology and other computational extensions of the physical science, the reproducibility basically comes in the form of requirements to provide the software and raw data for a study. It's easy for the individual that compiles this information to verify that they get the same result as the one they report in the article. The concern there boils down to the provenance of the source data, which may be from registries, public data sets, or some combination of public and private data.

      The purpose of reproduction is to guard against statistical accidents, bad assumptions, and fraud, and running the same software over the same data doesn't do that. Reproduction in the scientific sense means that someone who collects their own data and writes their own software using just the assumptions stated in your paper gets the same scientific result.

      Reproducibility in computational and data intensive disciplines is actually a bigger problem than in experimental sciences, because it's so easy to share code and data; that means that lots of people run basically the same code over basically the same data and seem to be "reproducing" a result, when in fact, they are adding no new information.

  4. Re: s/drug trials/climate change/g by reanjr · · Score: 5, Informative

    Many studies have been done on anthropic climate change, but almost no experiments.

  5. Science discourages reproducing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Scientists are not rewarded for reproducing/debunking previous work. You can't easily get it published, because it is not regarded as new. Honestly, I think grad student projects should be almost entirely reproducing other results. It would insure that every important result is reproduced, and increase the emphasis of doing the science correctly rather than finding some novel result (which is usually a 2 sigma result which again can't be reproduced).

    1. Re:Science discourages reproducing by WrongMonkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are vastly underestimating grad students. All grad students already have a bachelor's degree, had high enough grades to get accepted to grad school and had previous undergraduate research experience. Most incoming grad students have already published research papers. Many of them have had industry experience between undergrad and grad school. The average age of grad students is 33 years old. We're talking about mid-career professionals, not wet-behind the ears newbies.

  6. Re:s/drug trials/climate change/g by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The purpose of peer review is to identify incorrect theories and throw them out. This article says an awful lot more about the state of research today than it does about peer review which is doing what it's supposed to be doing.

    --

    Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

  7. Not Science, Medicine by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is medical research, not science. Medicine uses science because often the best way to cure something is to understand it but, very importantly, it has a very different motivation to science. Finding a "magic" pill which cures disease X without side effects but whose mechanism is completely unknown is great medicine but appalling science. Science is all about understanding how things work, medicine is all about treating human ailments.

    This leads to a different approach using the tools of science. Medical researchers tend to focus far more on correlation over causation because that is what is most important to this. Unfortunately this approach leaves them open to random statistical effects which require a very good understanding of statistics to avoid and even then it can still be very easy to fool yourself e.g. the Monty Hall effect.

    So lets call this problem what it is: a problem with medical research.

  8. NB: most medical scientists by Artem+S.+Tashkinov · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The human body is the most complex organism in the known universe so there's nothing to be sneezed at or be surprised by. For instance recent studies have shown that for a lot of people placebo works even when people have a perfect knowledge that they are given placebo.

    As another confirmation, the brain has the ability to directly change/affect the chemical processes in the body as demonstrated by Wim Hof who can manage his body's temperature at will.

  9. Re: s/drug trials/climate change/g by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 5, Informative

    Many studies have been done on anthropic climate change, but almost no experiments.

    The infrared absorption of carbon dioxide is experimentally measured in the laboratory. And there is a vast amount of measured data on the earth's atmosphere and climate, from surface, atmospheric, and orbital probes, not to mention probes of other planets; and we acquire terabytes of additional data every year.
    The basics of Earth's energy balance are well understood, and they are understood, in part, because of this vast amount of experimental and observational data.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  10. Re:The rush to "publish or perish" by Dthief · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And who is going to waste their time reproducing results that get them no glory, no "real" publications, etc etc etc

    --
    www.RacquetUp.org - Helping Detroit Youth
  11. Questions require listening by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not heresy if the science is sound. Simply questioning isn't valid, though.

    Questioning, of course, is always valid. But "questioning" is useless when the questioner has no interest in listening to anybody answering the question.

    Far too much of the "questioning" about climate science is from people who have no interest in any of the science, the measurements, or the data, and won't bother to learn anything about it.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  12. The grand experiment by Layzej · · Score: 3, Informative

    Many studies have been done on anthropic climate change, but almost no experiments.

    There's one rather large experiment going on right now. Unfortunately we're all inside the test tube. So far it's turning out more or less how we expected.

  13. Re:Financial motives... by pipingguy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The part of Eisenhower's speech that is rarely quoted, for some reason: "Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

    The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.

    Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific technological elite.
    "

  14. Re:s/drug trials/climate change/g by Oligonicella · · Score: 3, Informative

    This of course presumes the experiment **can** be replicated.

    As for "peerless", there have been researchers at top labs (Bell, for one) that have fabricated their research.

  15. Re: s/drug trials/climate change/g by lgw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    he infrared absorption of carbon dioxide is experimentally measured in the laboratory

    No one rational doubts this. That has never been what the climate change debate was about. But the atmosphere is not a bottle of air, or even a bottle of air and water (any modern meteorological model treats modeling he ocean at least as importantly as modeling the air). The atmosphere+hydrosphere is a complex, evolving system with many feedback mechanisms, both positive and negative.

    I mean, really, do you think a climate model is simply modeling a static stack of air with some CO2 in it? Really?

    The question is: quantitatively, what rate of human CO2 emission with create what effects, in detail. This is not the sort of science that lends itself to reproducible experiments, but that's fine, neither does astronomy or cosmology. It is, like any science, required to make falsifiable quantitative predictions.

    And, frankly, the best models aren't doing so well, giving about 2 sigmas of accuracy. If you generated hundreds of models at random, you'd expect a couple dozen to have 2 sigmas of accuracy. That doesn't mean the models are flawed in any fundamental way, but there's a big gap between "not fundamentally flawed" and "great, proven science".

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  16. Re: s/drug trials/climate change/g by greythax · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "Sir, the ship is sinking!"

    "Yes, but how FAST is it sinking?"

    "We're not entirely sure, but we know it is because we keep drilling holes."

    "Well, we better keep drilling until we know how fast, just to be safe."

  17. Re: s/drug trials/climate change/g by tbannist · · Score: 3, Informative

    Record high temps, record low temps. record rain, record drought.

    That's actually what you'd expect with a chaotic system built of multiple random variables. It would be unnatural for weather to always be the same.

    Actually it's not. It's a simple fact that in a stable system, as time goes on, there are fewer and fewer "record" events because each new record needs to be more extreme than all previously recorded events. Over time, record-breaking events decline significantly. So, an increase in record events is, by itself, evidence that the system is undergoing change.

    --
    Fanatically anti-fanatical