Panasonic Wants Employees To Relax, Limits Work Days To 11 hours (cnet.com)

Japan is notorious for its long working hours, which have been blamed for a national health crisis known as "karoshi" -- death from overwork. From a report on CNET: Panasonic hopes to curb this, instructing its 100,000-ish employees to work no later than 8 p.m. each day, reports Asahi Shimbun. This hour reduction still enables a 55-hour working week, but the directive from Panasonic President Kazuhiro Tsuga also limited overtime to 80 hours a month.

Comments

Only?

[kuzb]

11 hours. What an improvement! This is like saying "we used to allow murder all week, but now we've limited it only to the weekends".

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[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair that would be an significant improvement.

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[Calydor]

Have you ever heard the expression that Rome wasn't built in a day?

Change doesn't come in leaps and bounds, it comes a single step at a time.

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[SScorpio]

Bunch of slackers, not even working half days (12 hours).

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[ShanghaiBill]

The Japanese put in a lot of hours, but not much of that is "working". Japan's productivity is only 60% of America's. There is a social taboo to leave work before your boss, so people stay late and surf the web. The bosses are promoted based on seniority rather than ability, and are often incompetent with no incentive to take the initiative on more enlightened working conditions. It is better to just stick to prevailing social conventions and keep a low profile.

America: The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Japan: The nail that sticks up will be hammered back down.

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[Anonymous Coward]

It's still better than what a heck of a lot of companies do. Ever heard of "Seattle hundreds?" It's a common term in the Seattle area, and I've seen it in email a couple of times from friends that live in the Bay Area. It is 16 hours a day Monday through Thursday then 12 hours a day Friday through Sunday. Where I work now in Bellevue (between Seattle and Redmond and used to be the home of Microsoft), I've had at least one team on required hundreds since mid-March 2007. It really sucks for me because I have to attend every scrum for every team I have and the company policy is to have two scrums each workday if you're required to work twelve or more hours per day. At one point, I had six teams that were required to work hundreds so I had to attend 84 scrums per week (7 days per week * 2 scrums per day * 6 teams) for just those teams.

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[ShanghaiBill]

Hogwash. There is no way that employees would put up with that crap in today's economy. I notice that you don't actually name the company, which is a good idea when you are making up BS. Unemployment in the Seattle area is below 4%, and tech unemployment is around 2%. Every company in the area is desperate for talent, so these workers could quit and walk across the street for a new job. I might tolerate 100 hour weeks for a few years if I was getting paid $300k, but no sane company would pay that when they could hire two workers at normal hours (50 or 60 hour weeks) for the same cost, and get far better productivity.

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[thegarbz]

The Japanese put in a lot of hours, but not much of that is "working". Japan's productivity is only 60% of America's.

Productivity is a measure of output for a given workforce, not working time. Japan's problem isn't one of people surfing the web at work, it's arcane hierarchical structures getting in the way of getting things done.

I remember working at one of our offices in Tokyo. Very simple task, we found a better way of doing something but to do that we needed another department to briefly do something for us:
USA Approach: Walk over, knock on the door, "Can you quickly do this for us?", "Yeah sure", "Thanks"
Japan Approach: Walk to your boss, sell the idea. He walks to his boss, sells the idea. His boss walks to his boss who oversees enough of the company that now the other department falls under him, he asks his way down the chain to see if it works. Eventually it gets to the bottom, person says "yeah sure". Up it goes again, over it goes again, yay we have approval. Walk over, knock on the door.

No time to surf the web when your productivity suffers due to the horrendous inefficiencies of the workplace.

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[Anonymous Coward]

“The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.”

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[Anonymous Coward]

H1-Bs?

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[Ogive17]

Americans (and other developed countries): Work to Live

Japanese: Live to Work

My wife is Japanese, she got home from a business trip to Japan last Sunday after traveling and working the previous weekend as well (14 days straight of working or traveling for work). When I asked her if she was going to take Monday off, she told me no.

I just rolled my eyes.

She did end up staying home but didn't make that decision until it was actually time to leave for work. I know some people love their jobs (she doesn't).. but even then you need time to live.

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[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I worked for a Japanese-based company in the 80's.....oftentimes they made decisions by not doing anything. Eventually the issue "resolved itself" and that was that. If something required intervention from above it was seen as a bad thing or a personal failing, maybe even somewhat shameful.

They were soooooooooo non-confrontational that just deciding where to go for lunch would be a multi-day process. We (they) eventually settled on 2 or 3 "favorite" places and they (we) would go to them in rotation.

If I suggested a buffet or burger place they would act like I'd lost my mind or was trying to talk them into a sex change. Me and some of the other American guys used to do it just to see the shocked looks on their faces.

"Yeah, I know it's Thursday (the 'Wada's Sushi Bar' day) but how about we go to Mad Mike's Burgers instead?"

A frenzied, whispered conversation would take place between them in Japanese for a minute or two and then one would say, "Ah, perhaps. Yes maybe we could....but do you not like Wada's Sushi Bar? We think it is an excellent place." (you are going to disturb the harmonious fluidity of our well-established lunch routine)

If we persisted then they would accede, but it always felt like we were forcing them to alter their well-worn lunch cycle and throwing the balance of the Universe out of whack.

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[chihowa]

Even in America, the squeaky wheel may get the grease, but it's also the first to be replaced.

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[networkBoy]

If we persisted then they would accede, but it always felt like we were forcing them to alter their well-worn lunch cycle and throwing the balance of the Universe out of whack.

Because you were.
What we call routine, they call ritual.

Just hand someone from Japan your business card improperly*... if it's someone high enough then your boss and your boss's boss may have to bow in apology** for not teaching you correctly the protocol of etiquette. Of course then you get bitched at for it. (totally worth it, my boss was a dick and this was a beautifully PA opportunity to make him suffer).

* Two hands, both corners of card pinched in index finger and thumb, card facing recipient, face up. Bow (30-60 deg, depending on your back, rank, etc.), look approx at recipients feet, present card.

** hold a 90 degree bow for 30 seconds.

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[Anonymous Coward]

No one can actually work 100 hour weeks. You may be present but you sure as hell aren't actually getting any useful work done. 50 or 60 is normal hours? Studies show anything over 40 and what you are doing is counter productive. Stop letting employers screw you over and brain washing you into ridiculous long hours at work actually being a good thing.

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[Anonymous Coward]

You're wrong. I moved to Seattle in 1986, and every employer I've worked for has required those sort of hours at time. At my last company, they required hundred hour work weeks for every employee. I'd quit, but I know I would just endup with the same.

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[oh_my_080980980]

Productivity is calculated by dividing the units of output completed by hours of input. So yes Productivity is based on working time.

You're obviously not a Project Manager nor work for a corporation because your example is pure bullshit. The simple fact is if you knocked on someone's door they would tell you in a polite way to fuck off while they finish their work. Because if they stop work on their project in order to help you they would fall behind. So your example is pure bullshit.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Also it sounds like you were suggesting shitty places to eat lunch and they were doing their best to politely tell you better places to go.

Yeah - their fault you're an idiot.

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[dj245]

The Japanese put in a lot of hours, but not much of that is "working". Japan's productivity is only 60% of America's. There is a social taboo to leave work before your boss, so people stay late and surf the web. The bosses are promoted based on seniority rather than ability, and are often incompetent with no incentive to take the initiative on more enlightened working conditions. It is better to just stick to prevailing social conventions and keep a low profile.

America: The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Japan: The nail that sticks up will be hammered back down.

I have worked in Japanese companies for almost 8 years in total, 7 months of which was in Japan. Everything in your post is true except "so people stay late and surf the web". This is not my experience. In my experience, people stay late and do NOT surf the web. The open floor plan in most Japanese offices makes goofing off unnoticed nearly impossible.

Some people are doing productive work, but slowly. Others were doing unproductive work (again, slowly). Others take frequent visits to other people in different departments. Meetings which require 2-3 people but 8 people are invited also help run up the man hours. Surfing the web for non-work reasons was strictly during lunch hours and breaks, I never saw it.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I've worked more than eighty hours a week since 1986 which was the last time I had a full week off. You're of crap that no one can work that much. At all of the companies I've worked for here in Seattle, we've all worked that much for years on end.

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[david_thornley]

Depends on the corporation. In mine, the walk over and ask routine works pretty well.

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[thegarbz]

Productivity is calculated by dividing the units of output completed by hours of input. So yes Productivity is based on working time.

So please re-read my post to see why it is still completely consistent.

You're obviously not a Project Manager nor work for a corporation because your example is pure bullshit. The simple fact is if you knocked on someone's door they would tell you in a polite way to fuck off while they finish their work. Because if they stop work on their project in order to help you they would fall behind. So your example is pure bullshit.

Oh you sound like one of those special flowers who think they can work in isolation. Well that practice would get you very quickly let go from most of the places I work at, especially in multi-disciplinary groups that have to work together in my line of work. But it's good to know the past 15 years of my working life has been "bullshit". I didn't realise until you said so random internet citizen. Thank you for your insight into how other people are supposed to work.

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[Anonymous Coward]

It happens. Large retailers starting with A with HQ in greater Emerald City do crap like this routinely, then fire people when they crack under the load.
They've tried to recruit me several times, but after watching friends buckle under Mr. B's insane working conditions, I've decided that it's not worth it.

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[Anonymous Coward]

1993 for me when I had more than one contiguous day off. Of course all of my Indian coworkers get two to three weeks off contiguous. I understand that flying home takes so much time and is so expensive that they need a lot of time off contiguous, but it sucks for the Americans that have to fight for even a long weekend. Microsoft sucks at vacation inequality.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Starts with an A? I work for Nordstrom in Seattle, and they require all developers to work seven days a week and more than twelve hours a day. As they keep reminding us, we're a company that has been around for 116 years so if it dies now, it is our fault.

The sad thing is that this company keeps hiring more project managers with PMP certifications rather than hiring developers.

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[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Because you were.
What we call routine, they call ritual.

Yes, I know. After almost a dozen years with them I'm well versed in the ins and outs of Japanese business/social protocol.

Two hands, both corners of card pinched in index finger and thumb, card facing recipient, face up. Bow (30-60 deg, depending on your back, rank, etc.), look approx at recipients feet, present card. ** hold a 90 degree bow for 30 seconds.

We did a much shorter "business bow", nowhere near 30 seconds, maybe a few seconds just to show deference. And nowhere near 90 degrees, it was a much less formal thing with us and they actually started copying us when we were in an informal setting.

Because they were taught in English class that "too" and "very" are often interchangeable, many of them would shake your hand and say "Thank you too much!" lol

They were some of the best people I ever worked with, period. The company backed us 100% and took care of us like you wouldn't believe.

A client once complained *very* unfairly about me but my boss knew it was total bullshit. The client made noises about disciplining me and my boss told him not to worry, he would. He called me into his office and said, "I am disciplining you," and then he laughed and took me out to dinner at a great steak house in San Francisco.

That client really didn't like Japanese people and he would ask that I come to his lab instead of one of the Japanese guys. My boss would always tell him in fake broken English that, "No, no I discipline him like you ask, he never get to come to your place again, don't worry!" And then he'd send one of the Japanese guys cuz he knew it made the client cranky, lol.

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[Anonymous Coward]

so i'm supposed to drop everything to get your work done before mine and make you look good instead of finishing the work my boss expects of me? you don't have the authority to assign me work.

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[networkBoy]

Good boss!

The 90 degree / 30 second thing was the "apology" bow for my cavalier attitude to the business card thing (which I knew damn well what I was doing lol).

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[roman_mir]

Japan's problem is their inability to let the failures go down in flames and fail for the good of the rest of the economy and of the society.

Japan is the place were you go to when you want to get funny money for trading/shorting, that's the place you go to borrow Yen to do all this insane trading. Japan is the place of the suicide economic policy, the kamikaze of policies (the one that USA is also following), the policy destroying the currency for the purpose of bailing out horrible failures just to keep them going due to political expediency and not due to any form of sound economics at all.

This in turn leads to economic stagnation, falling birth rates, depression, etc. All the good stuff that the central bankers together with the government love to give its people.

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[ShanghaiBill]

Also it sounds like you were suggesting shitty places to eat lunch and they were doing their best to politely tell you better places to go.

If you leave lunch up the the Japanese, you will eat at Denny's everyday. For some reason, Denny's is considered a good restaurant in Japan, even though the food is just as terrible as what they serve in America.

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[Anonymous Coward]

You misunderstand the way things really get done in Japan. If it's a one off thing, call up worker in other department and ask them to come out for a drink after work. Discuss over drinks. If it's a permanent change in process, do the same thing to get the guy on board before making the official request, then make the official request confident that it will go through smoothly, not get blocked at the other end and need lengthy negotiation.

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[rtb61]

So what happens if you stop carrying your business cards and say refuse theirs, requesting they call your phone to transfer their details into your contact database.

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[Alan R Light]

The studies done by the British during the First World War found that approximately 55 hours per week provided peak production, though presumably peak efficiency was at some lower number of hours.

But the British were looking at peak total production for their work effort, and they found that 6 day weeks were more productive than 7 day weeks, and that total production peaked at about 55 hours. When workers worked more than 55 hours, their total production was actually less than if they worked only 55 hours.

So it looks like this Japanese company got it right. With very rare exceptions, they should limit work hours at 55 hours per week if they want to maximize production. If they want to maximize productivity, which is slightly different, they may want to restrict work hours even further.

Now, are there rare individuals who can work longer hours and even enjoy working longer hours? Of course. There are exceptions to every rule. But most workers need to rest occasionally.

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[JustAnotherOldGuy]

So what happens if you stop carrying your business cards and say refuse theirs, requesting they call your phone to transfer their details into your contact database.

They would label you as a white barbarian and have nothing but contempt for you from that moment on. I'm not kidding.

The whole business card thing is a very formal dance and they take it pretty seriously. Sure, you may do the phone thing later but the business card exchange is not just about exchanging business cards, trust me.

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[Anonymous Coward]

It's not even legal to require you to work 7 days a week, and especially not 12 hours a day. Please fuck off with your bullshit.

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[Anonymous Coward]

How you described Japan's work culture is more or less exactyl how people in Europe tend to view work in the US...

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[Anonymous Coward]

Why?

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[dunkelfalke]

Incidentally, this is how Europeans see the Americans.

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[Tamerlin]

Productivity is a measure of output for a given workforce, not working time. Japan's problem isn't one of people surfing the web at work, it's arcane hierarchical structures getting in the way of getting things done.

That's a very optimistic view of american "productivity" based on anecdotal evidence. The reality is that while there are a few places where american workers are actually rewarded for getting things done, most of them are rewarded based on time worked.

Most software shops I've worked in have been spending the vast majority of their workers' time on servicing technical debt, while promoting the people whose primary contribution was that debt.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Not legal, true. But they get away with it bc anyone who protests gets blacklisted, and it's damned hard to get work then......

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[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Also it sounds like you were suggesting shitty places to eat lunch and they were doing their best to politely tell you better places to go.

It sounds like you weren't there and are just blowing shit out of your ass.

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[Rande]

Peak efficiency for creative types (artists, authors, researchers, developers etc) is actually around 30 hours. You can pad out the working week with meetings etc, but you're only going to get that much actual work done.

After around 45 hours is the point where their work goes negative.

The lady who comes back part time from maternity leave who only does 2 days work a week? You're probably getting almost a full weeks work out of them and only paying them for 2 days.

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[Anonymous Coward]

The US is much closer to Japan than to the rest of the developed world in this regard.

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[Hognoxious]

X per person and X per hour are not the same thing, so why do you claim that's consistent?

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[thegarbz]

Because my premise was that the person is actually working their full shift, not slacking away. Hence they are repeatable, one being nothing more than a function of the other. You say 10 hours. I say 1 FTE.

Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

Just because overtime won't be paid beyond 80 hours a month doesn't mean that people won't work it for social standing.

The ban on work beyond 8pm might be somewhat more effective, and less self-serving at the corporate financial level.

Sadly, if these people have been working 60+ hours a week for years, work is their life - send them home and they'll get depressed, fight with their families, and otherwise have to find some meaning to their life outside the company.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Anonymous Coward]

And no definition in the article as to when Overtime starts in Japan.

Many people probably assume it starts after 40hs a week like in the US.
That is not necessarily so. It could as easily be up to the company and regular time ends after 55 Hours in a week.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[gnick]

Sadly, if these people have been working 60+ hours a week for years, work is their life - send them home and they'll get depressed, fight with their families, and otherwise have to find some meaning to their life outside the company.

I don't disagree BUT:
Depression is treatable and, if it's a result of a lifestyle change, temporary.
Fights with family are typically resolved and are part of forming family bonds.
As for finding meaning to life outside the company, I'm not sure any exists but the opportunity to quest for it should be available to everyone on the planet.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because overtime won't be paid beyond 80 hours a month doesn't mean that people won't work it for social standing.

The ban on work beyond 8pm might be somewhat more effective, and less self-serving at the corporate financial level.

Sadly, if these people have been working 60+ hours a week for years, work is their life - send them home and they'll get depressed, fight with their families, and otherwise have to find some meaning to their life outside the company.

I wish I could mod you "Sad but true"

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Maritz]

Yeah. You can change company regulations and even laws, but there is a cultural interia in Japan about working hours. It would take a concerted effort over more than one generation to change it.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

Sadly, if these people have been working 60+ hours a week for years, work is their life - send them home and they'll get depressed, fight with their families, and otherwise have to find some meaning to their life outside the company.

I don't disagree BUT:
Depression is treatable and, if it's a result of a lifestyle change, temporary.
Fights with family are typically resolved and are part of forming family bonds.
As for finding meaning to life outside the company, I'm not sure any exists but the opportunity to quest for it should be available to everyone on the planet.

I agree on all points, but simply point out that these kinds of transitions will bring their own tragedies, suicides, etc. All in all, people who are permitted opportunity to quest for meaning in their own ways do seem to form more attractive societies (I'm thinking of East vs West Germany in 1990 now, but the pattern repeats in many different places and times.)

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[TWX]

I've known a couple of people that worked inordinate hours as a reaction to their home life and not wanting to be there.

Unfortunately these people were themselves part of the problem. They tended to be unhappy at work too, and to spread this around the workplace generally.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[gnick]

Many people probably assume it starts after 40hs a week like in the US.

For white collar workers with a salary of more than $47,476, that's not necessarily true. I've had positions where it was explicitly explained to me that the 40 hour week was a minimum and less than expected.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here. Early in my career I felt intimidated, like I was so green that I had to compensate by working longer hours as they required.

Once I became important, was a key supporter of a mission-critical product, I was able to push back on that and insist on an only 40 hour work week. And still get raises and bonuses.

So, if you really want work-life balance, the trick is to be valuable enough that you can require it.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Anonymous Coward]

As for finding meaning to life outside the company, I'm not sure any exists but the opportunity to quest for it should be available to everyone on the planet.

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Revelation 4:11)

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[spiritplumber]

This is the same God that wants to blow up the Earth in Revelation 20-21-22 right? And throw 90% of humanity in a torture camp? Sorry, not interested in negotiating with a terrorist.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

Wouldn't this encourage everyone to work as a contractor an be paid hourly? Or is that not a thing in Japan?

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[outlander]

Yeah, the same sicko soi-disant deity who says "Love me or I'll torture you forever."

Gaslight much? Sounds like a serial abuser to me....

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Anonymous Coward]

There are pluses and minuses to working as a contractor. And working hourly is not always an option. Right now, people are just taking the job they can find.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[ShanghaiBill]

Wouldn't this encourage everyone to work as a contractor an be paid hourly? Or is that not a thing in Japan?

In Japan, it is common for women to be paid hourly, while men are paid salary. The result is that early in their careers, women tend to make more than men, but as they age and gain seniority, the men make more. But older people have high mortgages and families to support. So the result is that about 80% of the disposable income in Japan is control by young women in their 20s and 30s. This distorts the economy in surprising ways. For instance, new technology is often packaged primarily for young women, because that is where the big market is. So you see yakuza with tattoos and shaved heads hanging out on the street corner in Harajuku making deals on their cellphones ... which are pink and shaped like "Hello Kitty".

When I was a Marine stationed on Okinawa, 90% of the tourists on the beaches in Nago and Henoko were young single women travelling together from the main islands. I have many fond memories of living on Okinawa.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Anonymous Coward]

It's illegal to have minimum hour requirements for FLSA-exempt positions. You can come in for one hour a day if you can finish your duties in that time.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Anonymous Coward]

HR with my former employer stated that my salary was based on a 50 hour work week.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[soc_cost_priv_gains]

How about locking the offices after working hours are over? Where I work the janitor gets pissed if I don't leave before 8:00pm since he needs to lock up the building.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Anonymous Coward]

A standard working week in Japan is legally limited to 40 hours (with a max of 8 hours a day, and minimum of 7 days off a month). So overtime starts at 40 hours for standard Mon-Fri full time jobs.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

Employment at will: "you may be terminated at any time for any reason or no reason at all."

I was absolutely shocked the first time I accepted such a job (2003 - hadn't signed an employment contract since 1991 at the time), but I needed the job, so I took it. Seems like it's the norm now, that clause has been with me at every job since.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

I've worked with a couple of these office dwellers, post divorce, messy situation with the kids, works 70 hours a week and still can't seem to do what people need them to do.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Rande]

Unless it's because you're black or other protected class.

In which case any non-crazy person won't give a reason.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

Never made sense to me: fired because of your race? How did you get hired in the first place, then?

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Rande]

Old manager moves on/gets promoted.
New manager doesn't like black people and fires all the blacks and hires white people to replace them.
Simple enough, but illegal.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

Old manager moves on/gets promoted.
New manager doesn't like black people and fires all the blacks and hires white people to replace them.
Simple enough, but illegal.

And black, asian, hispanic, female, and handicapped managers never do this to members not of their race/gender/status?

In 1972, when all the managers (of the high paying professions in the US) were white males, it was a problem that needed addressing - 45 years later, it seems like the pendulum has swung past center.

REDUCTION to 55 Hours?

[Anonymous Coward]

And I was complaining about Brazil's 44h/w, thinking that I work too much.

Re:REDUCTION to 55 Hours?

[laie_techie]

And I was complaining about Brazil's 44h/w, thinking that I work too much.

If you could find work in Brazil, you would gladly work 44 hours per week.

Are they paid appropriately?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or is Japan like America, where free labor is not just morally acceptable, it is considered a merit?

reactions were mixed

[nimbius]

japanese: 11 hours!? ill never get anything done and my wife wont let me come home after less than 16 hours you insensitive clods!!
Americans: 11 hours...so...thats an entire 11 hour shift at just one job? not 5 jobs?
French: ....
Americans: someone call an ambulance, the french guy just dropped dead after reading the title.
dead japanese man: how shameful. ive been dead for 5 months and still manage to get to work on time. stop making excuses for yourself.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it possible that the Japanese are using some fucked up method of calculating time that ends up equating to an 8 hour day in the US? You know, like calories vs Calories, or how some silly countries use the metric system to measure miles?

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

German here. The key is efficiency: Work done per hour worked. When you work too many hours, efficiency drops to the point where the total amount of work done is less than what you would get done in fewer hours. Japan has a very attendance-centric work ethic. I'm sure Panasonic isn't making these changes (just) to be nice.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo. The average person does 6 hours of work a day. I don't mean you are at your desk for 6 hours. I mean if you stay at work for 12 hours, you get 6 hours of work done. If you stay at work for 6 hours, you get 6 hours done.

A lot of companies focus on attendance over work completed. It's a stupid metric that needs to die.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Their hours are just as long as the ones counted in North America or Europe. Overworking because of peer pressure and social standing is a known problem in Japanese culture. Their economic depression in the late 20th century exacerbated this. Death as a result of overwork is not common, but is a recognized health problem in Japan.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Maritz]

A lot of assertions, fuck all to back them up... As you were.

Re:reactions were mixed

[GuB-42]

I've read a story somewhere about the manager of an engineering department dealing with critical systems at NASA during the space race.
He imposed 9 to 5 work days, as part of his plan to promote a healthy routine. He noticed that overwork leads to mistakes and that nullifies any productivity gain made during extra hours.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

They must be using metric hours in Japan...

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

In a government engineering job this is 100% true. Your client is... no one in the short term and the "American People" in the long run. Overwork does lead to mistakes - for sure.

But - what do you do when your client has a problem that needs to be solved TODAY/with limited time? You work your ass off, do the best you can, try to limit mistakes, and get something done. If you don't, then your client will hire someone who will. That is how the world works. If your client isn't moving fast and lets you take forever - they may not be competitive and will soon lose in the market. Right or wrong, the real world is a scrappy competitive mess and long hours often mean *everyone* feels better (your client, your client's customers, etc. until a big mistake is made). Then your client declares bankruptcy and tries again.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. You shouldn't let the secret out.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo. The average person does 6 hours of work a day. I don't mean you are at your desk for 6 hours. I mean if you stay at work for 12 hours, you get 6 hours of work done. If you stay at work for 6 hours, you get 6 hours done.

A lot of companies focus on attendance over work completed. It's a stupid metric that needs to die.

6 hours of productive work, 2 hours of non-productive work, 4 hours of fixing the damage due to non-productive work.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

But - what do you do when your client has a problem that needs to be solved TODAY/with limited time? You work your ass off, do the best you can, try to limit mistakes, and get something done.

The problem is that often those problems are of your own doing precisely because you run on such thin margins and little flexibility that you require your employees to be "flexible" with their "willingness" to work overtime. Now, that's not entirely fair. But often the problems of your own doing--failure to deliver on a promise by either over promising or, again, having such thin margins that when any issues arise, you can't deliver without overtime. Sometimes it can work out--people aren't all salaried, overtime pay lures people to work, and the work is generic enough that you can get a healthy mix of people to fulfill the job. Too often, though, the work is specialized, the people are salaried, and/or it's a recurring problem.

Of course then there's the issue of how this system of consistent overtime effectively drops wages. So, people are "lured" into overtime as the only effective way to have a decent effective wage. This only further encourages the system of pushing for overtime. It's one major reason I'd really like to see overtime laws to be more regressive--rates doubling at 45 hours, tripling at 50, etc. For places that really do need the consistent extra work, they'll just hire extra people because it'll end up being cheaper. For the rest, it ends up being a reasonable boon for the mandated overtime.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're a programmer or SA, it's possible to do very long days.
However, eventually, you burn out. I've done it a couple of times.
A good solid day of six or seven hours at a CLI I can do for a while.
But 12 on 12 or more for weeks or months or years is counterproductive - you burn out, start to get cynical, start getting angry about it and not necessarily getting angry at the right causes for your overwork. That's why EA basically does a fire-and-replace after each major release - they've blown their staff. My next-door neighbor is ex-EA, and he got burnt to the ground by 7-day weeks and then, as they do, summarily dismissed en masse with all but a few members of the team he was on.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

As a consultant, the secret is double billing ;-)

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

Has telling people how to do things right ever changed anything? The secret's safe.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, those '4 hours fixing damage' are productive work. So really you've only done 2 hours of net productive work in that day.

Re:reactions were mixed

[dj245]

I've read a story somewhere about the manager of an engineering department dealing with critical systems at NASA during the space race. He imposed 9 to 5 work days, as part of his plan to promote a healthy routine. He noticed that overwork leads to mistakes and that nullifies any productivity gain made during extra hours.

It is absolutely true. For work in the trades (machinists, welders, etc), we see the majority of accidents occurring in the final 2 hours of a 12 hour shift. It is naive to think that white collar people don't suffer from fatigue too. The CDC even hosts a study titled "Overtime and Extended Work Shifts: Recent (not so recent now) Findings on Illnesses, Injuries, and Health Behaviors" showing that there may be profound effects on the long-term health of workers as well.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

I need you to talk to my boss.
His belief is that if you're getting overtime pay, you'd better be getting one and a half times as much work done.

My previous employer was of the mindset that the opportunity to work overtime is a gift, and is also a way to offset the lower than average wages they offered. They also wanted 50 hour weeks consistently.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Alan R Light]

Absolutely. The British did efficiency studies during the First World War and found that not only efficiency but total production declined after 55 hours per week.

Which is to say, employees who work more than 55 hours per week are actually hurting the company.

Now, I am sure there are exceptions - rare individuals who really love what they do and can work 100 hours per week at peak efficiency because their job is their passion. But you shouldn't build company policy on those rare individuals - you should just provide ways for them to get around the rules without destroying the productivity of the normal workers.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Alan R Light]

Well said. Overtime should be exactly that - overtime. Something extra when extra effort is needed for short term goals. If you are pushing overtime all the time, then your crew will always be at the edge, and when you really need them for those emergency situations they will burn out and need to be replaced. The company would do better just to hire more people.

As we move forward into an age of automation, number of working hours will need to decrease, in part to ensure that there is enough of a market for what we produce. We are already seeing more of an emphasis on consuming experiences rather than goods. This is a good thing in lots of ways.

So I would be less aggressive than you in increasing wages, but I would start earlier: say, time and a half after 30 hours, double at 40 hours, triple at 50 hours, quadruple at 60 hours. Or perhaps time and a quarter at 30 hours, time and a half at 40, double at 50, double and a half at 60, and anything over 65 at triple wages.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Hognoxious]

But - what do you do when your client has a problem that needs to be solved TODAY/with limited time?

A genuine emergency needs to be dealt with quickly.

The key questions are:
* How often are emergencies arising?
* Have people discovered that declaring one is an easy way to get their shit to the front of the queue?

Slashdot arithmetic?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have your work week limited to 55hrs _and_ your monthly overtime limited to 80hrs, then if both limits are supposed to be non-redundant, you must be able to reach 80hrs of overtime by working 55hrs a week. With 4.3 weeks per month, this means 55hrs must be more than 18.5hrs overtime. So the regular work week must have less than 36.5hrs. And they regularly work 55hrs, namely 50% overtime and _more_ (or the 80hrs/month rule would not kick in) on a regular basis?

Why do they even make contracts for 36.5hrs if you are not supposed to stay even in the same ballpark?

Re:Slashdot arithmetic?

[JoeMerchant]

I think it's more like Panasonic arithmetic... "Do not work beyond 8pm" if you comply with this directive, you will not be working more than 55 hours a week (unless you come in on Saturday or Sunday, ignore the directive, etc.) If you do manage to work more than 55 hours a week, you will not be paid overtime beyond 80 hours a month.

Re:Slashdot arithmetic?

[Joe_Dragon]

but last week jay got canned for being the one to the bear min of 55 and jack is next unless he does at least 80.

Re:Slashdot arithmetic?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously just don't have a name that starts with J. Ooh, sorry, Joe_Dragon.

Since the 1980's Work Rampage

[Neuronwelder]

Well. I guess enough people have died for them to take notice. and "taper back" on the whip cracking.

Re:Since the 1980's Work Rampage

[JoeMerchant]

Sick thing it, it's not so much whip cracking as it is peer pressure and coopetition - sure, we're all on the same team, but see how hard I'm pulling - no, I can pull harder I will get that next promotion instead of you, etc.

Re:Since the 1980's Work Rampage

[Neuronwelder]

I have been whipped as an electronic technician since 1980, In fact the late 1970's were not a walk in the park either. The field of electronics has always been cruel to workers. It took till 2004 for the perverted abuse to spread to the rest of the work fields. Now even office workers realize what we've been going though. I think around the late 1990's was when they started to crap on IT support.. Additionally, the 1960's and 70's was an extremely rough time on engineers.

Re:Since the 1980's Work Rampage

[JoeMerchant]

I think a lot of it has to do with company size. In big companies you can choose to work hard, but to an extent, you can take the Wally (from Dilbert) approach, too. In small companies, Wally just doesn't cut it because the small companies are literally fighting for their lives too much of the time.

Japan work place facetime rules force people

[Joe_Dragon]

Japan work place face time rules force people to work late.

But if the 2020 olympics get rid of the last train then that hard limit will be gone.

Re: Japan work place facetime rules force people

[Anonymous Coward]

The working people in Japan also leave work and go straight to the bar. Again, a face time thing. Work long hours, then hang out at bar till 3:00 AM, go home and be back at work by 7:30. They are the most exhausted people you will ever meet.

Re: Japan work place facetime rules force people

[Anonymous Coward]

They won't even go home. If they miss the last train, then there are sleep pod hotels next to the train station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsule_hotel

Re: Japan work place facetime rules force people

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

English coal mines

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't the English coal mines have shorter work days back in the 19th century? I don't think even IG Farben required their concentration camp slaves to work 11 hours straight. What the fuck, Panasonic?

Re:English coal mines

[demonlapin]

Coal workers had "shorter" days, but only because they were not paid for the time spent descending into the mine and walking to the coal face. They were paid only when actually mining. Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier has a lot about this.

Quantity vs Quality

[Dorianny]

Humans can be alert and productive for only so many hours a day, differs by person but it is definitely even less then 8 for most everyone. After that something that would take 1 hours in the morning will instead take 4 hours of overtime. Of course you will not be able to get anything done in a hour in the morning either because all that overtime means that you will not get enough rest. If you are a security guard, simply being there is good enough but if your work involves higher thought processes then quality beats quantity when it come to overall productivity. Something which is unfortunately lost in today's Corporate culture where the most valued personal is often the people responding to emails at 1am, no matter what gibberish

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[JoeMerchant]

Depends not only on the person, but also the task. Implementing complex algorithms efficiently in code tends to require more attention and focus than sitting in hours long meetings listening for the occasional cue to speak for 30 seconds.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

This. I cant code productively more than 4 hours a day. The rest of my day is phoning it in or just churning pretty mediocre code. That's the truth of it. If I had to work 11 hour days on the regular the work product would be garbage and I'd be looking for a new job. It's a gig economy and I have a masters in CS so I can cobble together $100k a year just temping and working 9 months a year. The people working 12 hour day like this have to be doing some mindless spreadsheet work or data entry -- something where your brain is not really being put to much use.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[Kjella]

Humans can be alert and productive for only so many hours a day, differs by person but it is definitely even less then 8 for most everyone. After that something that would take 1 hours in the morning will instead take 4 hours of overtime.

The question is what people could do and people would do. I've had six hour exams and they were killers, same if you watch top chess players after a typical match of ~5 hours so if you're giving it your everything then clearly you don't last eight hours. Do you think people would become super effective if they only worked six hours a day though? Do you think they'll just zone out and mentally recover for the rest of the day? Not just like one day, but every working day? I can't speak for everyone else but I get more done in eight hours than in six or ten hours than in eight. Maybe not quite as much per hour, but it's not like I'm drop dead exhausted when I come home from work. But that's only if I cut down on my leisure time accordingly, if I go from eight hours to six hours to four hours of sleep then yeah productivity goes down the toilet. But that's because I "force" the company to bear that cost, not because I couldn't do twelve hours a day of good work. I just wouldn't have any other life to speak of.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

8 hours in a row maybe, but definitely not 8 productive hours out of 24. If you don't have the energy or clarity of thought to be productive for a 3rd of the day then you need to take a serious look at your health and diet, and perhaps engage in some mindfulness meditation to strengthen your focus (meditation is like push-ups for your brain. Every time you lose focus on whatever it was you were meditating on and redirect your focus back to the target, that is a mental push-up)

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[Cederic]

I'm the opposite. Coding is easy and I can just keep cracking on for 12-14 hours before realising it's dark and cold.

Talking to people? That takes effort.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[Cro Magnon]

Same here. I don't have any problem with long coding sessions. But long meetings? That's a problem.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[arth1]

Depends not only on the person, but also the task. Implementing complex algorithms efficiently in code tends to require more attention and focus than sitting in hours long meetings listening for the occasional cue to speak for 30 seconds.

The latter is, without doubt, the most tiring.

When I've accomplished something at work, I come home far more alert than when it's spent on politics and communications.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[ghoul]

Take a laptop to your meeting and keep coding

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[JoeMerchant]

I'm the opposite. Coding is easy and I can just keep cracking on for 12-14 hours before realising it's dark and cold.

Talking to people? That takes effort.

There are many kinds of meetings - one on one can be easy or hard, depending on how seriously you are taking it. The many people in the room meeting is an opportunity to focus on the speaker, get a sense of them, gauge other people in the room's reaction, and then when you've "got the picture" there's plenty of time to 70% zone out, contemplate and organize your own thoughts, mentally rehearse your 30 seconds for when it's your turn, and then... I generally make paperclip art. If you're going to do this, or doodle, or whatever is your meeting table pass time, do be sure not to become so engrossed in the distraction that you lose the thread of what's being said - that's terribly disrespectful.

If it's really hard to talk to people, you can usually improve that situation with non-threatening practice. The more you do it, and the more relaxed you are while doing it, the easier it gets. Kind of like coding.

Maybe I should work for Panasonic...

[__aaclcg7560]

My employment contracts for the last decade has prevented me from working more than 40 hours a week. None of the Fortune 500 companies I've worked for wanted to pay overtime for IT support.

Re:Maybe I should work for Panasonic...

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? That is interesting. I thought most of them just cheated the system and made you exempt (even though you supposedly have to have either management tasks, significant decision making authority about how to do your job, or be a recognized professional - which IT isn't).

Re:Maybe I should work for Panasonic...

[__aaclcg7560]

I thought most of them just cheated the system and made you exempt (even though you supposedly have to have either management tasks, significant decision making authority about how to do your job, or be a recognized professional - which IT isn't).

Not for contractors who work through a contracting agency.

Re:Maybe I should work for Panasonic...

[outlander]

...But they sure try to call you after hours for "just one thing."

The correct answer is "No, unless overtime is authorized in writing prior to my starting any work, and that includes answering questions on this phone call."

Re:Maybe I should work for Panasonic...

[__aaclcg7560]

...But they sure try to call you after hours for "just one thing."

No one has ever called me after hours in 20+ years of my technical career.

Japan will never figure it out

[Anonymous Coward]

Japanese social reforms always sound totally backwards.

They forgot to mention that they were limiting work contributions from other family members to 40 hours a week to avoid families compensating by sending boys or grandparents in to avoid a loss of face for the family.

Said Hitoshi Yamazuka, VP of Human Resources "It would be a tragedy to save a worker only to see his father and son die of overwork in his place. We must not repeat the mistakes of the past. We have lost too many retirees and future workers."

Re:Japan will never figure it out

[Anonymous Coward]

This was not in any of the news articles.
Not in English or Japanese.
You fabricated this.
Show the link or you are a liar.

30 hour workweek experiment

[demon driver]

There was an experiment recently conducted in Sweden, with many workplaces in different sectors taking part, I think it was a whole city. They switched to a 30-hour week, retaining full pay. The bottom line, as far as I remember, was that productivity was, if anything, increased.

Given how decision makers think, I have no hopes for things to change because of that, though. It's already telling how little publicity the study got.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

The bottom line was they ended up cancelling/not rolling out the program because they had to hire more people but didn't have the budget to keep paying them. I.e. they did not improve productivity PER $ spent.In other words, the people may have been slightly more productive for each hour they actually worked but they were not more productive than when they worked 40 hours but they kept the same pay so total cost to do the same amount of work increased.

Your bias must have just made you "make up" the conclusion that it worked out.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

Simply because of this: most humans will not, under any circumstances, believe any evidence that contradicts their personal ideology. Many current decision makers will have started their careers in the 80s and to this day will still carry a "lunch is for wimps" mentality.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

Or not libtard.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[clodney]

I'm too lazy to look for the cite, but I have read in the past that in the short term virtually any change you make is good and results in a productivity improvement. Then the novelty wears off and you go back to the old baseline. So people may be motivated to work harder or try to get more done in a 30 hour week initially, but that effect tends to wear off once it becomes the new normal.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

Your bias must have just made you "make up" the conclusion that it worked out.

You're right. The GP doesn't make a very solid argument for less hours precisely because of diminishing marginal returns and the issue of overwork leading to decreased productivity only really kicking in at about the 38 hour mark. Further, as you note, at the same pay the system is untenable as a little pilot program and such studies don't push for adoption by the masses.

Then again, the same arguments were made from the switch from the 90 hour work week to the 40 hour work week. In the end, it wasn't studies that made the switch nor was it the doom and gloom that manufacturers claimed it would be. It took a widespread social movement based on the overwork and otherwise terrible working conditions. Most of that has been placated--well, maybe not as much the overwork in factories. Without an impetuous for change, I don't see there being a real shift in how things are done in the US (or Japan) regardless of studies.

Of course the real lie is that studies are what's important. But that's just as stupid as the Laffar Curve. Employees should be there to do necessary work for reasonable pay, not to maximize their productivity per dollar spent; otherwise, we'd push harder for piecemeal work, abolish food stamps, and watch people starve in the street. Similarly, tax rates should be there to pay for necessary services and functioning of government, not to maximize revenue collection from residents. Studies are useful to know upper limits in theory on certain attributes, but of all people /. users should recognize that optimizing on big-O alone is not the end-all, be-all goal of things.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[GenP]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

fewer hours

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[outlander]

Honestly, shorter work hours offers the possibility to have more people working productively, which reduces poverty and overall improves the strength of the economy. But that costs more (or rather, costs employers more), so they don't do it, even though a larger pool of workers means better cross-training and coverage. The reduction in work-related stress from more users in the workplace with a lower expected per-worker productivity also helps with job and life satisfaction. Instead, we allow government to absorb and pay the cost of people who businesses won't hire (for reasons ranging from qualifications to outright bias), which the society as a whole bears, and which drags down both the economy and overall faith in the society.

We live in a society and an economy in which intelligence needs to matter. Doesn't matter whether you're a programmer or an attorney or a bricklayer or other tradesperson.....we need all the brains we can get, irrespective of the morphology surrounding them. To prosper in the coming economy, we need people who are smart, creative, functional, and who 'get' meritocracy. Any ideology that shuts out people as irretrievably other is wasting talent......

If we could leverage all of our people - and there are a lot of smart people who have to surmount really high odds to succeed - we'd do a lot better as a society. Part of helping them succeed is to create labor policies which incentivize having more people do fewer hours and developing greater expertise through training and time to relax and economic security.

But that won't happen until the people elect people committed to the good of the greater population, not corporate entities.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[outlander]

Yeah, the cost to employ more staff to distribute the load is higher. It's improved worker lives, but it's too expensive for the business owners, so it'll get scrapped.

It took a long time for the 8-hour baseline to become a norm. It'll take longer for it to get to 6 hours or less, and will only happen when people vote for politicians who put constituent well-being above corporate earnings reports.....

It's the over way around

[emanuele_fanton]

I work to live not live to work!!!

Super Karoshi!

[Anonymous Coward]

Super Karoshi

One of my favorite Flash (boo) games.

Take that you lazy SOB's that

[p51d007]

Only work 8 hours LOL. There are a lot of 12 hour shifts...some 24 hour like fire/ems, granted they aren't busy all the time, but 8-10 hours is usually enough for most people, without driving them insane.

as in lol

[KingBenny]

i see posters everywhere in the past weeks on the next vigil at the "Ijzer" ... battlefield where a lot of flemish died in the mud
twice
cos they're retarded , for some king or shit ... roughly translated, sayin "on own power to flemish power", a separatist slogan , now
try selling these people here LOOOOOOoooool , working days of only eleven hours
probably hard to follow my lol here since you're not from here in the middle of here not fitting in here
but thats hilarious , saying it like that

Re:as in lol

[KingBenny]

akshully, and pardon my impulsive doublepostness in repying to myself
the irony of that vigil is that all those suckers who bled out holding their bowels in the mud like twice, from the choking on mustard to whatever and theres like this huge tower built that says "nie wieder"
as in "never again"
died there fighting the germans and are like ALL inclined to the far right
that history as seen in school for y'all then, welcome to hellgium

Japan is notorious for its long working hours...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe, but we Americans work longer hours than Japanese do.

USA! USA! We're #1!

Their kind don't know no different...

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean it's fine for us, but it's all they know. They just won't be able to handle freedom I MEAN the vote I MEAN less horrendous working hours.

Lol, I'm way ahead of them

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

"Panasonic Wants Employees To Relax, Limits Work Days To 11 hours"

Lol, I'm way ahead of them, my employer would be lucky if I put in 6 hours a day.

I reckon Panasonic will catch up to me sometime in 2052 or so.

Why are you at these meetings?

[nastyphil]

*participating* in meetings or chairing workshops etc, productively are just as exhausting a codemonkey work

Re:Why are you at these meetings?

[outlander]

more so, really.

Re: Why are you at these meetings?

[nastyphil]

Totally, I was just being nice to the monkeys. Catwrangling, done well, is hard.

Re: Why are you at these meetings?

[JoeMerchant]

If you've got reasonably good cats, the key to cat wrangling is to let the work be their own ideas, their own plans, implemented as they think best.

I'll believe it

[AutodidactLabrat]

I'll believe this "limit" the first time a corporate boss is demoted or removed for violating the rules

That's only true over long periods of time

[SuperKendall]

Humans can be alert and productive for only so many hours a day, differs by person but it is definitely even less then 8 for most everyone.

I would say from past experience that is not right, you can indeed be alert and productive for far longer than eight hours. I would say its more like 16 and some people can go beyond that.

You can even do a number of very long days in a row and stay alert and truly productive... past a week or so you start to hit a wall and lose overall productivity. But not to such a point that you do not still gain more from working extra hours than you lose to lower mental focus.

It is really amazing what very focused people can do when pressed really hard.

That's fine for office workers

[rsilvergun]

but a large part of any economy is going to be construction, maintenance/repair, cooking, cleaning, etc. Those folks are probably not surfing the web. And I'll remind you the fellow who touched all this off by dying from overwork was a cook in a steak house.

Re:That's fine for office workers

[stoatwblr]

Death by overwork is so common in Japan that they even have a name for it.

If Matshita Corporation _really_ wanted to make a positive change they'd put in a rule which held managers responsible for holding employees in if they work late.

Management _can_ tell people to go home at the end of the day and if that's what it takes to solve the issue, they should.

Having the corporate structure encourage it would go a long way to solving this problem - as many others have mentioned, the stupidly long hours and requirements to "socialise" out of work hours with binge drinking levels that would make most hardened scotsmen keel over actually _damage_ productivity as well as shortening people's lives.

The classic standoff..

[Anonymous Coward]

They pretend to pay me, I pretend to work.