Panasonic Wants Employees To Relax, Limits Work Days To 11 hours (cnet.com)

Japan is notorious for its long working hours, which have been blamed for a national health crisis known as "karoshi" -- death from overwork. From a report on CNET: Panasonic hopes to curb this, instructing its 100,000-ish employees to work no later than 8 p.m. each day, reports Asahi Shimbun. This hour reduction still enables a 55-hour working week, but the directive from Panasonic President Kazuhiro Tsuga also limited overtime to 80 hours a month.

Comments

Only?

[kuzb]

11 hours. What an improvement! This is like saying "we used to allow murder all week, but now we've limited it only to the weekends".

Re: Only?

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair that would be an significant improvement.

Re:Only?

[Calydor]

Have you ever heard the expression that Rome wasn't built in a day?

Change doesn't come in leaps and bounds, it comes a single step at a time.

Re:Only?

[SScorpio]

Bunch of slackers, not even working half days (12 hours).

Re:Only?

[ShanghaiBill]

The Japanese put in a lot of hours, but not much of that is "working". Japan's productivity is only 60% of America's. There is a social taboo to leave work before your boss, so people stay late and surf the web. The bosses are promoted based on seniority rather than ability, and are often incompetent with no incentive to take the initiative on more enlightened working conditions. It is better to just stick to prevailing social conventions and keep a low profile.

America: The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Japan: The nail that sticks up will be hammered back down.

Re:Only?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's still better than what a heck of a lot of companies do. Ever heard of "Seattle hundreds?" It's a common term in the Seattle area, and I've seen it in email a couple of times from friends that live in the Bay Area. It is 16 hours a day Monday through Thursday then 12 hours a day Friday through Sunday. Where I work now in Bellevue (between Seattle and Redmond and used to be the home of Microsoft), I've had at least one team on required hundreds since mid-March 2007. It really sucks for me because I have to attend every scrum for every team I have and the company policy is to have two scrums each workday if you're required to work twelve or more hours per day. At one point, I had six teams that were required to work hundreds so I had to attend 84 scrums per week (7 days per week * 2 scrums per day * 6 teams) for just those teams.

Re:Only?

[thegarbz]

The Japanese put in a lot of hours, but not much of that is "working". Japan's productivity is only 60% of America's.

Productivity is a measure of output for a given workforce, not working time. Japan's problem isn't one of people surfing the web at work, it's arcane hierarchical structures getting in the way of getting things done.

I remember working at one of our offices in Tokyo. Very simple task, we found a better way of doing something but to do that we needed another department to briefly do something for us:
USA Approach: Walk over, knock on the door, "Can you quickly do this for us?", "Yeah sure", "Thanks"
Japan Approach: Walk to your boss, sell the idea. He walks to his boss, sells the idea. His boss walks to his boss who oversees enough of the company that now the other department falls under him, he asks his way down the chain to see if it works. Eventually it gets to the bottom, person says "yeah sure". Up it goes again, over it goes again, yay we have approval. Walk over, knock on the door.

No time to surf the web when your productivity suffers due to the horrendous inefficiencies of the workplace.

Re:Only?

[Anonymous Coward]

“The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.”

Re:Only?

[Ogive17]

Americans (and other developed countries): Work to Live

Japanese: Live to Work

My wife is Japanese, she got home from a business trip to Japan last Sunday after traveling and working the previous weekend as well (14 days straight of working or traveling for work). When I asked her if she was going to take Monday off, she told me no.

I just rolled my eyes.

She did end up staying home but didn't make that decision until it was actually time to leave for work. I know some people love their jobs (she doesn't).. but even then you need time to live.

Re:Only?

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I worked for a Japanese-based company in the 80's.....oftentimes they made decisions by not doing anything. Eventually the issue "resolved itself" and that was that. If something required intervention from above it was seen as a bad thing or a personal failing, maybe even somewhat shameful.

They were soooooooooo non-confrontational that just deciding where to go for lunch would be a multi-day process. We (they) eventually settled on 2 or 3 "favorite" places and they (we) would go to them in rotation.

If I suggested a buffet or burger place they would act like I'd lost my mind or was trying to talk them into a sex change. Me and some of the other American guys used to do it just to see the shocked looks on their faces.

"Yeah, I know it's Thursday (the 'Wada's Sushi Bar' day) but how about we go to Mad Mike's Burgers instead?"

A frenzied, whispered conversation would take place between them in Japanese for a minute or two and then one would say, "Ah, perhaps. Yes maybe we could....but do you not like Wada's Sushi Bar? We think it is an excellent place." (you are going to disturb the harmonious fluidity of our well-established lunch routine)

If we persisted then they would accede, but it always felt like we were forcing them to alter their well-worn lunch cycle and throwing the balance of the Universe out of whack.

Re:Only?

[chihowa]

Even in America, the squeaky wheel may get the grease, but it's also the first to be replaced.

Re:Only?

[networkBoy]

If we persisted then they would accede, but it always felt like we were forcing them to alter their well-worn lunch cycle and throwing the balance of the Universe out of whack.

Because you were.
What we call routine, they call ritual.

Just hand someone from Japan your business card improperly*... if it's someone high enough then your boss and your boss's boss may have to bow in apology** for not teaching you correctly the protocol of etiquette. Of course then you get bitched at for it. (totally worth it, my boss was a dick and this was a beautifully PA opportunity to make him suffer).

* Two hands, both corners of card pinched in index finger and thumb, card facing recipient, face up. Bow (30-60 deg, depending on your back, rank, etc.), look approx at recipients feet, present card.

** hold a 90 degree bow for 30 seconds.

Re:Only?

[oh_my_080980980]

Productivity is calculated by dividing the units of output completed by hours of input. So yes Productivity is based on working time.

You're obviously not a Project Manager nor work for a corporation because your example is pure bullshit. The simple fact is if you knocked on someone's door they would tell you in a polite way to fuck off while they finish their work. Because if they stop work on their project in order to help you they would fall behind. So your example is pure bullshit.

Re:Only?

[dj245]

The Japanese put in a lot of hours, but not much of that is "working". Japan's productivity is only 60% of America's. There is a social taboo to leave work before your boss, so people stay late and surf the web. The bosses are promoted based on seniority rather than ability, and are often incompetent with no incentive to take the initiative on more enlightened working conditions. It is better to just stick to prevailing social conventions and keep a low profile.

America: The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Japan: The nail that sticks up will be hammered back down.

I have worked in Japanese companies for almost 8 years in total, 7 months of which was in Japan. Everything in your post is true except "so people stay late and surf the web". This is not my experience. In my experience, people stay late and do NOT surf the web. The open floor plan in most Japanese offices makes goofing off unnoticed nearly impossible.

Some people are doing productive work, but slowly. Others were doing unproductive work (again, slowly). Others take frequent visits to other people in different departments. Meetings which require 2-3 people but 8 people are invited also help run up the man hours. Surfing the web for non-work reasons was strictly during lunch hours and breaks, I never saw it.

Re:Only?

[david_thornley]

Depends on the corporation. In mine, the walk over and ask routine works pretty well.

Re:Only?

[thegarbz]

Productivity is calculated by dividing the units of output completed by hours of input. So yes Productivity is based on working time.

So please re-read my post to see why it is still completely consistent.

You're obviously not a Project Manager nor work for a corporation because your example is pure bullshit. The simple fact is if you knocked on someone's door they would tell you in a polite way to fuck off while they finish their work. Because if they stop work on their project in order to help you they would fall behind. So your example is pure bullshit.

Oh you sound like one of those special flowers who think they can work in isolation. Well that practice would get you very quickly let go from most of the places I work at, especially in multi-disciplinary groups that have to work together in my line of work. But it's good to know the past 15 years of my working life has been "bullshit". I didn't realise until you said so random internet citizen. Thank you for your insight into how other people are supposed to work.

Re:Only?

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Because you were.
What we call routine, they call ritual.

Yes, I know. After almost a dozen years with them I'm well versed in the ins and outs of Japanese business/social protocol.

Two hands, both corners of card pinched in index finger and thumb, card facing recipient, face up. Bow (30-60 deg, depending on your back, rank, etc.), look approx at recipients feet, present card. ** hold a 90 degree bow for 30 seconds.

We did a much shorter "business bow", nowhere near 30 seconds, maybe a few seconds just to show deference. And nowhere near 90 degrees, it was a much less formal thing with us and they actually started copying us when we were in an informal setting.

Because they were taught in English class that "too" and "very" are often interchangeable, many of them would shake your hand and say "Thank you too much!" lol

They were some of the best people I ever worked with, period. The company backed us 100% and took care of us like you wouldn't believe.

A client once complained *very* unfairly about me but my boss knew it was total bullshit. The client made noises about disciplining me and my boss told him not to worry, he would. He called me into his office and said, "I am disciplining you," and then he laughed and took me out to dinner at a great steak house in San Francisco.

That client really didn't like Japanese people and he would ask that I come to his lab instead of one of the Japanese guys. My boss would always tell him in fake broken English that, "No, no I discipline him like you ask, he never get to come to your place again, don't worry!" And then he'd send one of the Japanese guys cuz he knew it made the client cranky, lol.

Re:Only?

[networkBoy]

Good boss!

The 90 degree / 30 second thing was the "apology" bow for my cavalier attitude to the business card thing (which I knew damn well what I was doing lol).

Re: Only?

[ShanghaiBill]

Also it sounds like you were suggesting shitty places to eat lunch and they were doing their best to politely tell you better places to go.

If you leave lunch up the the Japanese, you will eat at Denny's everyday. For some reason, Denny's is considered a good restaurant in Japan, even though the food is just as terrible as what they serve in America.

Re:Only?

[rtb61]

So what happens if you stop carrying your business cards and say refuse theirs, requesting they call your phone to transfer their details into your contact database.

Re:Only?

[Alan R Light]

The studies done by the British during the First World War found that approximately 55 hours per week provided peak production, though presumably peak efficiency was at some lower number of hours.

But the British were looking at peak total production for their work effort, and they found that 6 day weeks were more productive than 7 day weeks, and that total production peaked at about 55 hours. When workers worked more than 55 hours, their total production was actually less than if they worked only 55 hours.

So it looks like this Japanese company got it right. With very rare exceptions, they should limit work hours at 55 hours per week if they want to maximize production. If they want to maximize productivity, which is slightly different, they may want to restrict work hours even further.

Now, are there rare individuals who can work longer hours and even enjoy working longer hours? Of course. There are exceptions to every rule. But most workers need to rest occasionally.

Re:Only?

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

So what happens if you stop carrying your business cards and say refuse theirs, requesting they call your phone to transfer their details into your contact database.

They would label you as a white barbarian and have nothing but contempt for you from that moment on. I'm not kidding.

The whole business card thing is a very formal dance and they take it pretty seriously. Sure, you may do the phone thing later but the business card exchange is not just about exchanging business cards, trust me.

Re: Only?

[dunkelfalke]

Incidentally, this is how Europeans see the Americans.

Re:Only?

[Tamerlin]

Productivity is a measure of output for a given workforce, not working time. Japan's problem isn't one of people surfing the web at work, it's arcane hierarchical structures getting in the way of getting things done.

That's a very optimistic view of american "productivity" based on anecdotal evidence. The reality is that while there are a few places where american workers are actually rewarded for getting things done, most of them are rewarded based on time worked.

Most software shops I've worked in have been spending the vast majority of their workers' time on servicing technical debt, while promoting the people whose primary contribution was that debt.

Re: Only?

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Also it sounds like you were suggesting shitty places to eat lunch and they were doing their best to politely tell you better places to go.

It sounds like you weren't there and are just blowing shit out of your ass.

Re:Only?

[Rande]

Peak efficiency for creative types (artists, authors, researchers, developers etc) is actually around 30 hours. You can pad out the working week with meetings etc, but you're only going to get that much actual work done.

After around 45 hours is the point where their work goes negative.

The lady who comes back part time from maternity leave who only does 2 days work a week? You're probably getting almost a full weeks work out of them and only paying them for 2 days.

Re:Only?

[Hognoxious]

X per person and X per hour are not the same thing, so why do you claim that's consistent?

Re:Only?

[thegarbz]

Because my premise was that the person is actually working their full shift, not slacking away. Hence they are repeatable, one being nothing more than a function of the other. You say 10 hours. I say 1 FTE.

Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

Just because overtime won't be paid beyond 80 hours a month doesn't mean that people won't work it for social standing.

The ban on work beyond 8pm might be somewhat more effective, and less self-serving at the corporate financial level.

Sadly, if these people have been working 60+ hours a week for years, work is their life - send them home and they'll get depressed, fight with their families, and otherwise have to find some meaning to their life outside the company.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[gnick]

Sadly, if these people have been working 60+ hours a week for years, work is their life - send them home and they'll get depressed, fight with their families, and otherwise have to find some meaning to their life outside the company.

I don't disagree BUT:
Depression is treatable and, if it's a result of a lifestyle change, temporary.
Fights with family are typically resolved and are part of forming family bonds.
As for finding meaning to life outside the company, I'm not sure any exists but the opportunity to quest for it should be available to everyone on the planet.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Maritz]

Yeah. You can change company regulations and even laws, but there is a cultural interia in Japan about working hours. It would take a concerted effort over more than one generation to change it.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

Sadly, if these people have been working 60+ hours a week for years, work is their life - send them home and they'll get depressed, fight with their families, and otherwise have to find some meaning to their life outside the company.

I don't disagree BUT:
Depression is treatable and, if it's a result of a lifestyle change, temporary.
Fights with family are typically resolved and are part of forming family bonds.
As for finding meaning to life outside the company, I'm not sure any exists but the opportunity to quest for it should be available to everyone on the planet.

I agree on all points, but simply point out that these kinds of transitions will bring their own tragedies, suicides, etc. All in all, people who are permitted opportunity to quest for meaning in their own ways do seem to form more attractive societies (I'm thinking of East vs West Germany in 1990 now, but the pattern repeats in many different places and times.)

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[TWX]

I've known a couple of people that worked inordinate hours as a reaction to their home life and not wanting to be there.

Unfortunately these people were themselves part of the problem. They tended to be unhappy at work too, and to spread this around the workplace generally.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[gnick]

Many people probably assume it starts after 40hs a week like in the US.

For white collar workers with a salary of more than $47,476, that's not necessarily true. I've had positions where it was explicitly explained to me that the 40 hour week was a minimum and less than expected.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here. Early in my career I felt intimidated, like I was so green that I had to compensate by working longer hours as they required.

Once I became important, was a key supporter of a mission-critical product, I was able to push back on that and insist on an only 40 hour work week. And still get raises and bonuses.

So, if you really want work-life balance, the trick is to be valuable enough that you can require it.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[spiritplumber]

This is the same God that wants to blow up the Earth in Revelation 20-21-22 right? And throw 90% of humanity in a torture camp? Sorry, not interested in negotiating with a terrorist.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

Wouldn't this encourage everyone to work as a contractor an be paid hourly? Or is that not a thing in Japan?

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[outlander]

Yeah, the same sicko soi-disant deity who says "Love me or I'll torture you forever."

Gaslight much? Sounds like a serial abuser to me....

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[ShanghaiBill]

Wouldn't this encourage everyone to work as a contractor an be paid hourly? Or is that not a thing in Japan?

In Japan, it is common for women to be paid hourly, while men are paid salary. The result is that early in their careers, women tend to make more than men, but as they age and gain seniority, the men make more. But older people have high mortgages and families to support. So the result is that about 80% of the disposable income in Japan is control by young women in their 20s and 30s. This distorts the economy in surprising ways. For instance, new technology is often packaged primarily for young women, because that is where the big market is. So you see yakuza with tattoos and shaved heads hanging out on the street corner in Harajuku making deals on their cellphones ... which are pink and shaped like "Hello Kitty".

When I was a Marine stationed on Okinawa, 90% of the tourists on the beaches in Nago and Henoko were young single women travelling together from the main islands. I have many fond memories of living on Okinawa.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Anonymous Coward]

It's illegal to have minimum hour requirements for FLSA-exempt positions. You can come in for one hour a day if you can finish your duties in that time.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[soc_cost_priv_gains]

How about locking the offices after working hours are over? Where I work the janitor gets pissed if I don't leave before 8:00pm since he needs to lock up the building.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

Employment at will: "you may be terminated at any time for any reason or no reason at all."

I was absolutely shocked the first time I accepted such a job (2003 - hadn't signed an employment contract since 1991 at the time), but I needed the job, so I took it. Seems like it's the norm now, that clause has been with me at every job since.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

I've worked with a couple of these office dwellers, post divorce, messy situation with the kids, works 70 hours a week and still can't seem to do what people need them to do.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Rande]

Unless it's because you're black or other protected class.

In which case any non-crazy person won't give a reason.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

Never made sense to me: fired because of your race? How did you get hired in the first place, then?

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[Rande]

Old manager moves on/gets promoted.
New manager doesn't like black people and fires all the blacks and hires white people to replace them.
Simple enough, but illegal.

Re:Overtime not paid beyond 80 hours a month

[JoeMerchant]

Old manager moves on/gets promoted.
New manager doesn't like black people and fires all the blacks and hires white people to replace them.
Simple enough, but illegal.

And black, asian, hispanic, female, and handicapped managers never do this to members not of their race/gender/status?

In 1972, when all the managers (of the high paying professions in the US) were white males, it was a problem that needed addressing - 45 years later, it seems like the pendulum has swung past center.

reactions were mixed

[nimbius]

japanese: 11 hours!? ill never get anything done and my wife wont let me come home after less than 16 hours you insensitive clods!!
Americans: 11 hours...so...thats an entire 11 hour shift at just one job? not 5 jobs?
French: ....
Americans: someone call an ambulance, the french guy just dropped dead after reading the title.
dead japanese man: how shameful. ive been dead for 5 months and still manage to get to work on time. stop making excuses for yourself.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

German here. The key is efficiency: Work done per hour worked. When you work too many hours, efficiency drops to the point where the total amount of work done is less than what you would get done in fewer hours. Japan has a very attendance-centric work ethic. I'm sure Panasonic isn't making these changes (just) to be nice.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo. The average person does 6 hours of work a day. I don't mean you are at your desk for 6 hours. I mean if you stay at work for 12 hours, you get 6 hours of work done. If you stay at work for 6 hours, you get 6 hours done.

A lot of companies focus on attendance over work completed. It's a stupid metric that needs to die.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Maritz]

A lot of assertions, fuck all to back them up... As you were.

Re:reactions were mixed

[GuB-42]

I've read a story somewhere about the manager of an engineering department dealing with critical systems at NASA during the space race.
He imposed 9 to 5 work days, as part of his plan to promote a healthy routine. He noticed that overwork leads to mistakes and that nullifies any productivity gain made during extra hours.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo. The average person does 6 hours of work a day. I don't mean you are at your desk for 6 hours. I mean if you stay at work for 12 hours, you get 6 hours of work done. If you stay at work for 6 hours, you get 6 hours done.

A lot of companies focus on attendance over work completed. It's a stupid metric that needs to die.

6 hours of productive work, 2 hours of non-productive work, 4 hours of fixing the damage due to non-productive work.

Re:reactions were mixed

[dj245]

I've read a story somewhere about the manager of an engineering department dealing with critical systems at NASA during the space race. He imposed 9 to 5 work days, as part of his plan to promote a healthy routine. He noticed that overwork leads to mistakes and that nullifies any productivity gain made during extra hours.

It is absolutely true. For work in the trades (machinists, welders, etc), we see the majority of accidents occurring in the final 2 hours of a 12 hour shift. It is naive to think that white collar people don't suffer from fatigue too. The CDC even hosts a study titled "Overtime and Extended Work Shifts: Recent (not so recent now) Findings on Illnesses, Injuries, and Health Behaviors" showing that there may be profound effects on the long-term health of workers as well.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Anonymous Coward]

I need you to talk to my boss.
His belief is that if you're getting overtime pay, you'd better be getting one and a half times as much work done.

My previous employer was of the mindset that the opportunity to work overtime is a gift, and is also a way to offset the lower than average wages they offered. They also wanted 50 hour weeks consistently.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Alan R Light]

Absolutely. The British did efficiency studies during the First World War and found that not only efficiency but total production declined after 55 hours per week.

Which is to say, employees who work more than 55 hours per week are actually hurting the company.

Now, I am sure there are exceptions - rare individuals who really love what they do and can work 100 hours per week at peak efficiency because their job is their passion. But you shouldn't build company policy on those rare individuals - you should just provide ways for them to get around the rules without destroying the productivity of the normal workers.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Alan R Light]

Well said. Overtime should be exactly that - overtime. Something extra when extra effort is needed for short term goals. If you are pushing overtime all the time, then your crew will always be at the edge, and when you really need them for those emergency situations they will burn out and need to be replaced. The company would do better just to hire more people.

As we move forward into an age of automation, number of working hours will need to decrease, in part to ensure that there is enough of a market for what we produce. We are already seeing more of an emphasis on consuming experiences rather than goods. This is a good thing in lots of ways.

So I would be less aggressive than you in increasing wages, but I would start earlier: say, time and a half after 30 hours, double at 40 hours, triple at 50 hours, quadruple at 60 hours. Or perhaps time and a quarter at 30 hours, time and a half at 40, double at 50, double and a half at 60, and anything over 65 at triple wages.

Re:reactions were mixed

[Hognoxious]

But - what do you do when your client has a problem that needs to be solved TODAY/with limited time?

A genuine emergency needs to be dealt with quickly.

The key questions are:
* How often are emergencies arising?
* Have people discovered that declaring one is an easy way to get their shit to the front of the queue?

Since the 1980's Work Rampage

[Neuronwelder]

Well. I guess enough people have died for them to take notice. and "taper back" on the whip cracking.

Re:Since the 1980's Work Rampage

[JoeMerchant]

Sick thing it, it's not so much whip cracking as it is peer pressure and coopetition - sure, we're all on the same team, but see how hard I'm pulling - no, I can pull harder I will get that next promotion instead of you, etc.

Re:Since the 1980's Work Rampage

[Neuronwelder]

I have been whipped as an electronic technician since 1980, In fact the late 1970's were not a walk in the park either. The field of electronics has always been cruel to workers. It took till 2004 for the perverted abuse to spread to the rest of the work fields. Now even office workers realize what we've been going though. I think around the late 1990's was when they started to crap on IT support.. Additionally, the 1960's and 70's was an extremely rough time on engineers.

Re:Since the 1980's Work Rampage

[JoeMerchant]

I think a lot of it has to do with company size. In big companies you can choose to work hard, but to an extent, you can take the Wally (from Dilbert) approach, too. In small companies, Wally just doesn't cut it because the small companies are literally fighting for their lives too much of the time.

Japan work place facetime rules force people

[Joe_Dragon]

Japan work place face time rules force people to work late.

But if the 2020 olympics get rid of the last train then that hard limit will be gone.

Re:Slashdot arithmetic?

[JoeMerchant]

I think it's more like Panasonic arithmetic... "Do not work beyond 8pm" if you comply with this directive, you will not be working more than 55 hours a week (unless you come in on Saturday or Sunday, ignore the directive, etc.) If you do manage to work more than 55 hours a week, you will not be paid overtime beyond 80 hours a month.

Quantity vs Quality

[Dorianny]

Humans can be alert and productive for only so many hours a day, differs by person but it is definitely even less then 8 for most everyone. After that something that would take 1 hours in the morning will instead take 4 hours of overtime. Of course you will not be able to get anything done in a hour in the morning either because all that overtime means that you will not get enough rest. If you are a security guard, simply being there is good enough but if your work involves higher thought processes then quality beats quantity when it come to overall productivity. Something which is unfortunately lost in today's Corporate culture where the most valued personal is often the people responding to emails at 1am, no matter what gibberish

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[JoeMerchant]

Depends not only on the person, but also the task. Implementing complex algorithms efficiently in code tends to require more attention and focus than sitting in hours long meetings listening for the occasional cue to speak for 30 seconds.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[Kjella]

Humans can be alert and productive for only so many hours a day, differs by person but it is definitely even less then 8 for most everyone. After that something that would take 1 hours in the morning will instead take 4 hours of overtime.

The question is what people could do and people would do. I've had six hour exams and they were killers, same if you watch top chess players after a typical match of ~5 hours so if you're giving it your everything then clearly you don't last eight hours. Do you think people would become super effective if they only worked six hours a day though? Do you think they'll just zone out and mentally recover for the rest of the day? Not just like one day, but every working day? I can't speak for everyone else but I get more done in eight hours than in six or ten hours than in eight. Maybe not quite as much per hour, but it's not like I'm drop dead exhausted when I come home from work. But that's only if I cut down on my leisure time accordingly, if I go from eight hours to six hours to four hours of sleep then yeah productivity goes down the toilet. But that's because I "force" the company to bear that cost, not because I couldn't do twelve hours a day of good work. I just wouldn't have any other life to speak of.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[Cederic]

I'm the opposite. Coding is easy and I can just keep cracking on for 12-14 hours before realising it's dark and cold.

Talking to people? That takes effort.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[Cro Magnon]

Same here. I don't have any problem with long coding sessions. But long meetings? That's a problem.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[arth1]

Depends not only on the person, but also the task. Implementing complex algorithms efficiently in code tends to require more attention and focus than sitting in hours long meetings listening for the occasional cue to speak for 30 seconds.

The latter is, without doubt, the most tiring.

When I've accomplished something at work, I come home far more alert than when it's spent on politics and communications.

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[ghoul]

Take a laptop to your meeting and keep coding

Re:Quantity vs Quality

[JoeMerchant]

I'm the opposite. Coding is easy and I can just keep cracking on for 12-14 hours before realising it's dark and cold.

Talking to people? That takes effort.

There are many kinds of meetings - one on one can be easy or hard, depending on how seriously you are taking it. The many people in the room meeting is an opportunity to focus on the speaker, get a sense of them, gauge other people in the room's reaction, and then when you've "got the picture" there's plenty of time to 70% zone out, contemplate and organize your own thoughts, mentally rehearse your 30 seconds for when it's your turn, and then... I generally make paperclip art. If you're going to do this, or doodle, or whatever is your meeting table pass time, do be sure not to become so engrossed in the distraction that you lose the thread of what's being said - that's terribly disrespectful.

If it's really hard to talk to people, you can usually improve that situation with non-threatening practice. The more you do it, and the more relaxed you are while doing it, the easier it gets. Kind of like coding.

Re:Slashdot arithmetic?

[Joe_Dragon]

but last week jay got canned for being the one to the bear min of 55 and jack is next unless he does at least 80.

Maybe I should work for Panasonic...

[__aaclcg7560]

My employment contracts for the last decade has prevented me from working more than 40 hours a week. None of the Fortune 500 companies I've worked for wanted to pay overtime for IT support.

Re:Maybe I should work for Panasonic...

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? That is interesting. I thought most of them just cheated the system and made you exempt (even though you supposedly have to have either management tasks, significant decision making authority about how to do your job, or be a recognized professional - which IT isn't).

Re:Maybe I should work for Panasonic...

[__aaclcg7560]

I thought most of them just cheated the system and made you exempt (even though you supposedly have to have either management tasks, significant decision making authority about how to do your job, or be a recognized professional - which IT isn't).

Not for contractors who work through a contracting agency.

Re:Maybe I should work for Panasonic...

[outlander]

...But they sure try to call you after hours for "just one thing."

The correct answer is "No, unless overtime is authorized in writing prior to my starting any work, and that includes answering questions on this phone call."

Re:Maybe I should work for Panasonic...

[__aaclcg7560]

...But they sure try to call you after hours for "just one thing."

No one has ever called me after hours in 20+ years of my technical career.

30 hour workweek experiment

[demon driver]

There was an experiment recently conducted in Sweden, with many workplaces in different sectors taking part, I think it was a whole city. They switched to a 30-hour week, retaining full pay. The bottom line, as far as I remember, was that productivity was, if anything, increased.

Given how decision makers think, I have no hopes for things to change because of that, though. It's already telling how little publicity the study got.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

The bottom line was they ended up cancelling/not rolling out the program because they had to hire more people but didn't have the budget to keep paying them. I.e. they did not improve productivity PER $ spent.In other words, the people may have been slightly more productive for each hour they actually worked but they were not more productive than when they worked 40 hours but they kept the same pay so total cost to do the same amount of work increased.

Your bias must have just made you "make up" the conclusion that it worked out.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[clodney]

I'm too lazy to look for the cite, but I have read in the past that in the short term virtually any change you make is good and results in a productivity improvement. Then the novelty wears off and you go back to the old baseline. So people may be motivated to work harder or try to get more done in a 30 hour week initially, but that effect tends to wear off once it becomes the new normal.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[GenP]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[outlander]

Honestly, shorter work hours offers the possibility to have more people working productively, which reduces poverty and overall improves the strength of the economy. But that costs more (or rather, costs employers more), so they don't do it, even though a larger pool of workers means better cross-training and coverage. The reduction in work-related stress from more users in the workplace with a lower expected per-worker productivity also helps with job and life satisfaction. Instead, we allow government to absorb and pay the cost of people who businesses won't hire (for reasons ranging from qualifications to outright bias), which the society as a whole bears, and which drags down both the economy and overall faith in the society.

We live in a society and an economy in which intelligence needs to matter. Doesn't matter whether you're a programmer or an attorney or a bricklayer or other tradesperson.....we need all the brains we can get, irrespective of the morphology surrounding them. To prosper in the coming economy, we need people who are smart, creative, functional, and who 'get' meritocracy. Any ideology that shuts out people as irretrievably other is wasting talent......

If we could leverage all of our people - and there are a lot of smart people who have to surmount really high odds to succeed - we'd do a lot better as a society. Part of helping them succeed is to create labor policies which incentivize having more people do fewer hours and developing greater expertise through training and time to relax and economic security.

But that won't happen until the people elect people committed to the good of the greater population, not corporate entities.

Re:30 hour workweek experiment

[outlander]

Yeah, the cost to employ more staff to distribute the load is higher. It's improved worker lives, but it's too expensive for the business owners, so it'll get scrapped.

It took a long time for the 8-hour baseline to become a norm. It'll take longer for it to get to 6 hours or less, and will only happen when people vote for politicians who put constituent well-being above corporate earnings reports.....

It's the over way around

[emanuele_fanton]

I work to live not live to work!!!

Take that you lazy SOB's that

[p51d007]

Only work 8 hours LOL. There are a lot of 12 hour shifts...some 24 hour like fire/ems, granted they aren't busy all the time, but 8-10 hours is usually enough for most people, without driving them insane.

as in lol

[KingBenny]

i see posters everywhere in the past weeks on the next vigil at the "Ijzer" ... battlefield where a lot of flemish died in the mud
twice
cos they're retarded , for some king or shit ... roughly translated, sayin "on own power to flemish power", a separatist slogan , now
try selling these people here LOOOOOOoooool , working days of only eleven hours
probably hard to follow my lol here since you're not from here in the middle of here not fitting in here
but thats hilarious , saying it like that

Re:as in lol

[KingBenny]

akshully, and pardon my impulsive doublepostness in repying to myself
the irony of that vigil is that all those suckers who bled out holding their bowels in the mud like twice, from the choking on mustard to whatever and theres like this huge tower built that says "nie wieder"
as in "never again"
died there fighting the germans and are like ALL inclined to the far right
that history as seen in school for y'all then, welcome to hellgium

Re:REDUCTION to 55 Hours?

[laie_techie]

And I was complaining about Brazil's 44h/w, thinking that I work too much.

If you could find work in Brazil, you would gladly work 44 hours per week.

Lol, I'm way ahead of them

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

"Panasonic Wants Employees To Relax, Limits Work Days To 11 hours"

Lol, I'm way ahead of them, my employer would be lucky if I put in 6 hours a day.

I reckon Panasonic will catch up to me sometime in 2052 or so.

Why are you at these meetings?

[nastyphil]

*participating* in meetings or chairing workshops etc, productively are just as exhausting a codemonkey work

Re:Why are you at these meetings?

[outlander]

more so, really.

Re: Why are you at these meetings?

[nastyphil]

Totally, I was just being nice to the monkeys. Catwrangling, done well, is hard.

Re: Why are you at these meetings?

[JoeMerchant]

If you've got reasonably good cats, the key to cat wrangling is to let the work be their own ideas, their own plans, implemented as they think best.

I'll believe it

[AutodidactLabrat]

I'll believe this "limit" the first time a corporate boss is demoted or removed for violating the rules

That's only true over long periods of time

[SuperKendall]

Humans can be alert and productive for only so many hours a day, differs by person but it is definitely even less then 8 for most everyone.

I would say from past experience that is not right, you can indeed be alert and productive for far longer than eight hours. I would say its more like 16 and some people can go beyond that.

You can even do a number of very long days in a row and stay alert and truly productive... past a week or so you start to hit a wall and lose overall productivity. But not to such a point that you do not still gain more from working extra hours than you lose to lower mental focus.

It is really amazing what very focused people can do when pressed really hard.

That's fine for office workers

[rsilvergun]

but a large part of any economy is going to be construction, maintenance/repair, cooking, cleaning, etc. Those folks are probably not surfing the web. And I'll remind you the fellow who touched all this off by dying from overwork was a cook in a steak house.

Re:That's fine for office workers

[stoatwblr]

Death by overwork is so common in Japan that they even have a name for it.

If Matshita Corporation _really_ wanted to make a positive change they'd put in a rule which held managers responsible for holding employees in if they work late.

Management _can_ tell people to go home at the end of the day and if that's what it takes to solve the issue, they should.

Having the corporate structure encourage it would go a long way to solving this problem - as many others have mentioned, the stupidly long hours and requirements to "socialise" out of work hours with binge drinking levels that would make most hardened scotsmen keel over actually _damage_ productivity as well as shortening people's lives.

Re:English coal mines

[demonlapin]

Coal workers had "shorter" days, but only because they were not paid for the time spent descending into the mine and walking to the coal face. They were paid only when actually mining. Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier has a lot about this.