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Garmin Engineer Shot And Killed By Man Yelling 'Get Out Of My Country!' (theverge.com)
lxw56 writes:
Garmin engineer Srinivas Kuchibhotla was shot and killed at a local bar in Olathe, Kansas, the U.S. headquarters of Garmin. Co-worker Alok Madasani was also injured along with bystander Ian Grillot, who attempted to help the men. "The suspect in the shooting, Adam Purinton, was drinking at the bar in Olathe, Kansas, at about 7:15 p.m. that night," reports The Verge. "A witness said he yelled 'get out of my country' to two of the victims, reportedly saying the men, believed to originally be from India, were 'Middle Eastern.'" In 2015, Garmin employed 2,700 workers in Olathe and has plans to double this number, which the article notes has led to "increasing diversity" in the community.
Oh wait, no... he actually shot and killed someone. KellyAnne, get out there and do what you do...
Police found him there after putting out an APB (Applebees Point Bulletin), which is the tool they use to find all racists in the Midwest and South.
Something about making psycopathy great again, something like that?
Do you read the news at all? This has been well covered.
I blame booze.
http://abcnews.go.com/Internat...
That man opened the door for lunatics like this. His followers are gleefully jumping through the door and this is what we get as a nation. I also blame the GOP for this because of their desire for power in Washington. They let this happen unchecked.
Trump may be aggravating it, but this isn't new. Some idiot attacked Sikhs a few years ago because he thought their turbans meant they were Muslims.
Racism doesn't always attract the brightest bulbs.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Why not call this guy a terrorist ?
If he had been a Muslim shooting an American it would be classed as terrorism.
Or does it not suit the US narrative ?
"Get out of my country, immigrant"
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a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
So WoW players, cat fanciers and gun enthusiasts are races now? Not sure that will fly with the UNHRC...
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
the comments section, i mean. honest question.
why do you guys bother keeping this comment section running, when it has clearly devolved into one of the worst, most openly racist and least interesting communities on the internet? okay, sure, there are communities specifically geared towards right-wing fascism and racism that are probably worse, but this site is supposed to be about, you know, tech news and stuff. but you guys have let it erode into something gross that almost nobody other than despicable morons want to participate in. i remember years ago when articles would have hundreds of interesting and insightful comments, with actual experts weighing in with well thought out reactions. those people are all gone, and with very good reason. are you glad they're gone? do you miss them? do you miss relevancy?
i doubt you are proud of providing a forum dominated by some of the worst elements of humanity. so that's why i'm asking why you continue to do so.
i could live a little longer in this prison
We don't hire any Trump supporters
So you discriminate by political party in the hiring process. Interesting. Do you do it by color and religion, too?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
The difference is, Obama didn't spend years going on TV and convincing Muslims that Americans are bad hombres who are out to get them around every streetcorner. Trump has spent the last year and a half on TV espousing exactly that kind of FUD about people with brown skin. Trump's fearmongering rhetoric comes with a price, and innocent people are paying it.
Which is why they come here to steal your job
No, that is not why they come here. They are brought here, to suppress your wages, by wealthy Americans of every race, gender, religion and orientation that has the means to do so. They are given a temporary license to stay, provided they remain cheap, then they get cast back to where they came from (or get labelled enemy of the state, evidently).
This is what is being lost beneath the racism, the Indians, Mexicans, Chinese, etc. are not your enemies, they're just people trying to make a buck. Your enemies are Americans.
a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
So WoW players, cat fanciers and gun enthusiasts are races now? Not sure that will fly with the UNHRC...
So now along with 5000 Genders, we got a million races based on beer preference.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
If your numbers are accurate, it means that a black person is twice as likely to be killed by a white person as a white person is to be killed by a black person.
Wow, 2 incidents over the course of 10 years in a population of 300 million people. What conclusion should we draw about the general population from these incidents?
About US military bases in their country.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Man has a point. If you only hire H1-Bs, you won't get many Trump supporters.
About TFA: is a sad commentary on the US education system that our rednecks can't tell the races they're supposed to hate apart. But then, I guess it's not the smart ones who do this sort of shit in the first place.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I work for Garmin at a different location and information I got from a co-worker, who used to be based in Olathe, was that the shooter drove to another bar where he told the staff he was in hiding from police. The staff there then called police who arrested him.
I have been to the USA often and have friends there. The one thing I know is you can not have a rational discussion with them about gun control. They genuinely believe that the right to bear arms is a good thing and the deaths that result, while tragic, are the price of freedom. I realise that any critique of US gun control or freedom means I will now be modded down.
I have 15 mod points now that I can't use since I am posting here. I could have used them to mod down the hateful posts but I want to post. I am genuinely saddened to hear of the death of a co-worker and such a needless death is so hard to understand. I have no idea how to fix the gun problem in the USA, if it was easy it would have been done already. Sorry America, you have a problem and the stats are pretty clear on that point.
My thoughts go our to Srinivas' family, I am sorry for your loss.
Unless you are a native american, you should be packing too.
#DeleteFacebook
Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another way is that black people do a lot more murder on a per capita basis. As it turns out, the chances of getting killed by a white guy are less for a black person than the reverse. Which is indicative of the overall murder rate in the black community being several times (something like 5+ times) what it is amongst whites.
Some source data
Anyway paying undue attention to a single person amongst the 6k or so that are going to die this year is politically motivated, as usual.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
They migrated here too. There are no humans native to North/South America.
I would guess that the same people concerned about this event are also largely the same people advocating for stricter gun controls. So it would seem that they are indeed concerned about those other shootings.
What is more interesting is that Trump is pushing his travel ban while far more people are killed by fellow Americans using guns than are killed by terrorists. Over 150,000 gun related homicides since 2001 vs 3,046 killed by terrorists. While 3,046 is indeed a large number, 2,996 of those happened on 9/11. None of those perpetrators were from the seven countries on Trump's list. The bulk of them were from Saudi Arabia, where Trump has significant business interests.
All that being said, I don't think gun control is THE answer to gun related homicides. There are deeper problems that need to be addressed. A travel ban is an order of magnitude worse solution to a much smaller problem. It serves to aggravate anti-US sentiment and makes recruiting people of any nationality an even easier task for terrorists. It makes enemies out of people who might otherwise be allies and promotes an environment where hatred and fear of "outsiders" is encouraged.
I work for Garmin in New Zealand and have been to Olathe a few times. Garmin has great inclusive culture to it and I am genuinely saddened to hear of Srinivas' death.
I am disappointed to read posts that somehow infer that Srinivas' employment in the Olathe office was at the expense of a US resident getting a job. That is simply not true. There is a world wide shortage of skilled workers. We have two US employees in our Auckland office and no one here complains about them taking our jobs. We employee every skilled Kiwi we can find but the shortage means over half my team are from China and Taiwan. We welcome them as we need more skilled people to get keep our business competitive. None of the locals, such as myself, see these people as stealing our jobs.
It is the same in Olathe, they will employ any US citizen with suitable skills ahead of a foreign worker as it is less hassle but they can not get enough staff with right skills, in part because Garmin set the bar quite high when it comes to skill levels. I have meet people with a wide range of backgrounds in the US Garmin offices and have never seen even a hint of racism or sexism.
My mind can not comprehend how the shooter could feel justified in taking a life even if he really thought immigrant were taking local jobs. These kind of people need to stop blaming immigrants for stealing jobs and take a good hard look at themselves.
Man has a point. If you only hire H1-Bs, you won't get many Trump supporters.
About TFA: is a sad commentary on the US education system that our rednecks can't tell the races they're supposed to hate apart. But then, I guess it's not the smart ones who do this sort of shit in the first place.
White guy in Kansas shoots foreigners because he's a racist and/or ethnocentric. ....
Black guys beat and torture white guy in Chicago because they're racist and/or ethnocentric.
White cops beat black guy in California because they're racist and/or ethnocentric.
Black guy kills a bunch of white cops because he's racist and/or ethnocentric.
Middle Eastern guys rape a bunch of white women in Sweden because
There are dicks everywhere. People of all religions, ethnicities, colors, and even financial backgrounds don't like and/or trust other people who are not like them.
Actually there is a "correct" side, the side that says my coworker would not be dead if he meet the same type mentally deranged guy in New Zealand, Australia, Britain, China and most of Europe. If that had happened here my coworker would be in the office the next day with a broken nose and the other guy would be in court on an assault charge.
Innocent gun owners didn't shoot these guys. Scapegoating and sending the police after innocent people isn't the answer.
Just about every other developed country in the world disagrees. The few that have a similar (well, within a 2-3x factor, the US is just that much of an outlier) level of gun ownership (like Switzerland) do it in a way so incredibly different it may as well be another concept entirely.
It just so happens that the rest of world is also doing fine without all those guns.
In the 1900s (and earlier) people came here to work hard and succeed.
The murdered man was an engineer working for Garmin. It seems pretty obvious he came to the U.S. "to work hard and succeed".
#DeleteChrome
No your coworker is dead because a racist bigot decided to kill him.
Nuts don't grow in a vacuum. I have no idea how much (if any) impact Trump had on this guy. I would guess though that he had plenty of contact with like minded people who at least talked about wanting to do this kind of thing. Trump's policies and penchant for "alternative" facts helps fuel the misguided hatred that feeds this stuff.
Entire societies have been complicit in unspeakable crimes including genocide. Where they nuts? No. They were surrounded by people and institutions that legitimized that kind of thinking. I don't believe Trump even knows how dangerous he his. It was never so important before to know the facts. It was never so important to be careful about what one says. He's not qualified either in experience or temperament for this job.
No he isn't.
Your co-worker is dead because some fucking asshole shot him.
Taking away guns does nothing to fix the underlying issues in a situation like this. That fucking asshole who shot your co-worker is going to hate your co-worker and do violence to him, guns or not.
There is no silver bullet. These are complex times with complex social issues that take insightful determination to solve. Knee-jerk reactions like "take away guns", "kick out the Muslims", "build a wall", "get a gun" and the like do not go very far in terms of a solution. Bigotry, hatred, sexism aren't going to be fixed like that.
"Doing something" for the sake of reacting may not be the best choice.
Beware of the Leopard.
They genuinely believe that the right to bear arms is a good thing and the deaths that result, while tragic, are the price of freedom.
Here is the thing foreigners don't understand about guns in America. The reason we have an amendment to the Constitution which permits citizens to own guns is twofold:
1) The Founding Fathers, almost all of whom were British subjects, saw firsthand what happens when only the government has firearms. They can use those weapons to quell public outcry over anything, claiming the people were "rioting" or were "a threat to peace and order" because the people can't effectively fight back. If you read The Federalist Papers, Hamilton, Madison and Jay all say the same basic thing: citizens who have weapons are more fully able to defend themselves from the government.
That may sound odd to Europeans, but if you look at your history you should be able to see the logic behind this amendment. The Founding Fathers used their own experiences to craft a document which (was supposed to) enshrined rights to people while limiting that of the government. However, as James Madison pointed out, there has been more abridgement of freedoms of the people by the silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations (paraphrased).
The second reason for the amendment, and one the NRA absolutely refuses to recognize, is those who had weapons were during that time required to register with the government so they could be called up as part of the militia. Unlike today, the Founding Fathers envisioned a small standing army, if at all, with the militia doing the brunt of the work to slow or repel foreign invaders or put down rebellion, as George Washington did during the Whiskey Rebellion.
Men who had firearms would register with their local government and if the need arose, they would be called up. The government maintained that list so they knew who they could call on.
The original amendment, as proposed by James Madison, the guy who wrote the Constitution, was:
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
You can see how cutting out and rearranging a few words has people imaging the amendment to be something it is not.
This is why gun control is such a contentious issue. The Constitution, the supreme law of the land, says citizens are allowed to own firearms. Where the argument comes in is where to draw the line on a) who can own a gun (as a rule, anyone convicted of a criminal offense cannot) and b) what restrictions on gun ownership (type of weapon, amount of bullets, etc). As you have seen, some believe there should be no restrictions and others say there should be plenty of restrictions or even no ownership at all.
I'd mod you down if I had points,
Don't mod down someone if you disagree with what they wrote. That is abuse of the moderation system. Write a reply instead.
but instead I'll just say the right to bear arms is a good thing.
You might want to provide some arguments for that.
I am not really here right now.
You push hate, bigotry, violence, and xenophobia, so of course this kind of stuff escalates. :(
Stay tuned, more acts of horrific inhumanity to come
We all come from the same stock, sport.
Unfortunately, 'terrorism' is now a code word for Jihad, and the term has elbowed out all other terror acts committed by non-Muslims. If everybody would use the j word to describe terrorism done by the allahu-akbar screaming crowd, and the t word for its doing by anyone else, that would clear things up a lot
Never mind that this unskilled redneck would never get a job at Garmin anyway if all the immigrants left, not even to clean the toilets.
in a particular culture
Highlighted a key part for you. Australia even before the gun ban didn't have a culture of openly carrying guns in the street. We didn't have a trigger happy culture. We didn't get into an argument and shoot people. The gun buyback and ban was never intended to have anything remotely to do with the murder rate. It solved one problem and one problem only: Mass killings.
America on the other hand, ... well two of my colleagues from our Texas office got into a heated discussion on an engineering problem and ended up pulling guns on each other. The situation was de-escalated though. In the kind of culture where you reach for your piece instead of just punching a man in the face like they deserve, a gun ban may have a very different outcome.
We don't know because as you so rightly pointed out we only have data from particular cultures, very different ones to the "omg the mentally unstable need a right to bear arms too" culture.
The man that was murdered migrated here legally too.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
your odds of surviving a knife attack are orders of magnitude better than surviving a shooting.
You might think that folks getting shot is a price to pay for the freedom to own fire arms. I'm not gonna bother arguing that point yay or nay (and I wish the left would drop it, it's a losing issue). But the phrase "Guns don't kill people" is verifiable bullshit. It bothers me that a sentiment so obviously wrong can get so much traction with the American people.
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Thank you for your reasoned response. Rifles are common here and not to hard to get but you never see then in the city, only on farms, at the homes of hunters and out the bush. I would image it possible to get a hand gun but I'm 54 and in my entire life I have never seen one here outside of a gun shop or on the police at Auckland International Airport (rare even there).
Yes, knives etc are an issue in bar fights etc but are a magnitude less dangerous and I think your average bouncer would consider take on such a person.
There's no amount of massaging of the statistics that will change the fact the US gets waaaaay more gun deaths per capita than any other Western country. You're up there with Uruguay and Panama. That, alone, is proof enough that the bandwagon fallacy doesn't apply.
Silly excuses for killing other humans. For the record, contrary to what you may have heard from Fox News, Obama did not touch the H1B visas. Under section 214(g)(1)(A)(vii) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) of 1989, only 65,000 H1B visas may be allocated each fiscal year, and that has remained so. The only thing Obama did and his powers were very limited as the President, is that he allowed spouses of H1Bs called H4 visa holders to work legally, and he allowed H1Bs who were already waiting for green cards to change jobs without losing their position in the green card queue, which makes H1Bs less like bonded labor and makes the employment market fair for all.
Pardon me, but I wasn't born yesterday. When an entire motive is determined by the statement of one unnamed witness, and it just so happens to be a rare validation of a major unsubstantiated trend narrative, I am suspicious. I'll be waiting a few weeks to let this story play out before I believe it.
"Hands up, don't shoot" anyone?
"This notion that guns have some kind of magic killing power that doesn't readily exist elsewhere is pure nonsense"
Well, no. You can't just spur-of-the-moment pull a machete or a car out of your pocket, point it at someone, pull a little lever, and they die. Guns literally DO have some kind of magic killing power that doesn't readily exist elsewhere. They make killing far, far, far, far easier and more accessible than other means, and that's the problem.
Sure, a firearm wasn't the only factor here, and yes it's possible the guy would have ended up dead otherwise. But let's not pretend that firearms aren't actually anything other than highly efficient killing devices.
They genuinely believe that the right to bear arms is a good thing and the deaths that result, while tragic, are the price of freedom.
Here is the thing foreigners don't understand about guns in America. The reason we have an amendment to the Constitution which permits citizens to own guns is twofold:
1) The Founding Fathers, almost all of whom were British subjects, saw firsthand what happens when only the government has firearms. They can use those weapons to quell public outcry over anything, claiming the people were "rioting" or were "a threat to peace and order" because the people can't effectively fight back. If you read The Federalist Papers, Hamilton, Madison and Jay all say the same basic thing: citizens who have weapons are more fully able to defend themselves from the government.
That may sound odd to Europeans, but if you look at your history you should be able to see the logic behind this amendment.
Non-Americans understand you believe that, but we also understand that you're wrong.
Guns might have been useful before the 20th century, but they are not a good defence against a modern government, if anything they actually enable authoritarians by giving them a reason to crack down on the civil liberties that actually do keep governments in check.
I stole this Sig
Guns kill easiest. Guns kill efficiently. A car and machete are tools that have many uses. A gun is a weapon, and has a single purpose. It kills. It kills well.
Cool. Then let's blame Obama for Orlando, San Bernardino, etc.
See how fucking stupid you are?
No, because Obama was always condemned the extremism that led to those attacks, and condemned the acts themselves after they happened.
Trump, on the other hand, was completely silent the last time a right wing terrorist killed people, and has done basically nothing to speak up against the extremists in his base. Even getting him to disavow the KKK or condemn anti-Semitism is like getting a toddler to eat vegetables.
There is absolutely no double standard in holding Trump accountable for this.
I stole this Sig
the dangerous ones in the US to worry about are a certain kind of gun owner.
they wear blue uniforms when they go to work each day.
you know what I'm talking about.
those gun owners are scary and can end your life. try to avoid them, even talking to them.
then, chances are, you'll generally be safe in the US.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Pretty much all Trump supporters are not racists
Everybody is racist. At least to some degree, if you think you're colour-blind or your biases are grounded in dispassionate statistics then you're delusional.
Now, do Trump supporters show more racial biases than other people? Yes. Whether you call them "racist" is just a question of where you draw the line on using that particular label.
that is yet more Fake News
You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.
In the face of a shooting why are you trying to make people hate others more, not less?
We're trying to wake people up to the danger posed by the rhetoric that Trump is pumping out, and he's not just creating threats on the right, if I were an Al-Queda or ISIS recruiter right now I'd be over the moon.
What triggers this shooting was a vet who couldn't get assistance from the VA.
Are you always so understanding when seeking the root cause when a Muslim does something terroristy?
After eight years, that is on Obama - as is Obama and supporters stirring racial tension
Yeah! What was Obama thinking Presidenting while black??
and giving focus to a violent angry drunk man.
I don't think Trump drinks.
Mathews apologized to the family's in her statement, calling Purinton's actions "senseless." She said he had a drinking problem that became worse since his father passed away in October 2015, and he'd been trying to get assistance from the VA.
The families of home-grown Muslim terrorists tend to be very apologetic and horrified by the actions of their relatives, do you also bold their family's response when trying to humanize the perpetrator?
I stole this Sig
There's an even more correct side -- the side that goes along with the overwhelming amount of research (not to mention common sense) that suggests more guns = more gun accidents (and of course, more gun violence.)
The pro-shooter types will always love to drag out an anecdote of some woman about to be raped and her only solution apparently is to shoot the guy dead (and of course its usually a hypothetical story since few people actually know of any such cases, though I'm sure you could find one or two if you try hard enough. Even then, proving that there were no other options is not always straightforward.
Unfortunately we now live in a world where feelings matter more than facts not only in people's minds but in the office of the leader of the "free" world, so trying to convince anyone that their rare case anecdote is less useful on a large scale than actual scientific research requires a level of patience and eloquence few people can master.
But whatever.. I put up a post on /. once in a while hoping to convince someone somewhere that guns are actually dangerous but in the grand scheme of things I'm just a scrub behind a screen I don't expect that I'll be the one to change the world.
Let's be honest: guns are an inexpensive handheld point-and-click device designed to kill things.
Although the math doesn't require an absolute population value, it's a bit easier to reason about it if one is used, so I'll round the population of the country to 300 million.
If whites are 70% of this population and 500 whites per year are murdered by blacks, then the white population is 210 million, and the rate of whites murdered by blacks is 500 per 210 million -- about 2.4 whites per million are murdered each year by blacks.
If blacks are 13% of this population, and 200 blacks per year are murdered by whites, then the black population is 39 million, and the rate of blacks murdered by whites is 200 per 39 million -- about 5.1 blacks per million are murdered each year by whites.
Ergo, as I said, these numbers, if believed, show that a black person is twice as likely to be killed by a white person as a white person is to be killed by a black person.
Well, only approximately, since 5.1 is not exactly twice 2.4, but that wasn't your quibble now, was it?
As other commenters have pointed out, that statement is fairly meaningless without further context, but I'm not the one who posted the context-free numbers. All I did is point out one conclusion from them. Another conclusion, of course, is the one probably intended by the original poster, e.g. that on average, black people commit more interracial murders than white people, but that conclusion likewise requires additional context before you could consider it to be actionable data.
Here's one piece of context for you -- "on average" has its own problems. As Dylan Roof illustrates, a single white guy easily supplied 4.5% of the carnage in that white-on-black number.
Should that make blacks feel safer or less secure?
The buyback scheme was 2003, and 1996, there is certainly a drop there. You conveniently mention 1996, where there were still a lot of gun, but not 2003 the second buyback. I wonder why. Maybe because that woulds not support your contention I guess. Murder rate 2001- 2003 :310 , 318, 302. 2004 and following years : 263,259, 280, 255 ,263. What other stuff happened in 2003 beside the buyback ? Nothing.
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It was. You could get new land without having to pay for it. Instead of welfare money. the U.S. handed out welfare property.
I wasn't presenting an opinion, I was presenting a fact. ... don't act like I'm just presenting some unsubstantiated opinion.
So you're presenting an ... unsubstantiated fact? I'm not sure that's a thing. For most of us a 'fact' based on your gut feelings is a type of opinion.
More more guns you have the more murders you have, and the more society-wide anxiety...
I see no evidence of either. I have yet to see a study that shows that (legal) gun ownership is a significant factor in homicide rates, some have even found a modest negative correlation. And you and I might be anxious around guns, because we aren't used to them, but people that grew up with them don't seem to be.
...since you realize that aggressive obnoxious guy at the bar might be packing
Right, 'cause if he only might be packing a knife, or have a bunch of buddies back at a table, or just be bigger than me, he's totally non-threatening.
I don't think it's coincidence that gun-rights activists are generally in favour of harsher laws and more aggressive police. When you think you're in a dangerous society you want a strong government to keep control.
Most gun-rights activists are for a smaller, more constrained government, so they must not think that they're in a dangerous society. When they advocate for "harsher laws and more aggressive police", they're only talking about the narrow group of things that they believe are the government's business - that's more libertarian than authoritarian.
They genuinely believe that the right to bear arms is a good thing and the deaths that result, while tragic, are the price of freedom.
Here is the thing foreigners don't understand about guns in America. The reason we have an amendment to the Constitution which permits citizens to own guns is twofold:
1) The Founding Fathers, almost all of whom were British subjects, saw firsthand what happens when only the government has firearms. They can use those weapons to quell public outcry over anything, claiming the people were "rioting" or were "a threat to peace and order" because the people can't effectively fight back. If you read The Federalist Papers, Hamilton, Madison and Jay all say the same basic thing: citizens who have weapons are more fully able to defend themselves from the government.
That may sound odd to Europeans, but if you look at your history you should be able to see the logic behind this amendment.
Non-Americans understand you believe that, but we also understand that you're wrong.
Guns might have been useful before the 20th century, but they are not a good defence against a modern government, if anything they actually enable authoritarians by giving them a reason to crack down on the civil liberties that actually do keep governments in check.
This is just plain wrong. You should read/watch the news. Land wars, the kind fought with rifles like the ones you say are useless, still make up and decide 99% of armed conflicts. You think because drones entered the scene everything is magic hollywood effects? We blast and just send in soldiers to hand out food?
Don't be so daft. You are the one that is wrong, and the numbers show it.
How about you go tell ISIS how futile a rifle is, meanwhile they're about to seize a landmass a quarter the size of Europe.