Uber Loses Legal Test Case Over Language (bbc.com)

Ride-hailing service Uber lost a court battle on Friday to stop a London regulator from forcing private hire drivers to prove their reading and writing skills in English, the latest setback for the firm in London which could now lose some workers. From a report: The ride-hailing app went to court after Transport for London (TfL) said that drivers should have to prove their ability to communicate in English. Uber argued that the standard of reading and writing required by the test was too high. The US firm said the test was "unfair and disproportionate" and it would appeal against the court's decision. The ruling will also apply to all minicab firms in London. "TfL are entitled to require private hire drivers to demonstrate English language compliance," said Judge John Mitting as he rejected Uber's claim. Tom de la Mare QC, for Uber and the drivers, told the judge that the language requirement would result in 70,000 applicants failing to obtain a licence over three years. The proposals would have a disproportionate impact on drivers from countries where English was not generally spoken and give rise to "indirect discrimination on grounds of race and nationality."

Comments

Who cares about the drivers,

[Anonymous Coward]

How about we require call center employees to demonstrate english language compliance?

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[TWX]

We do. That's why so many are in India.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[ausekilis]

I agree with the sentiment, though it is a bit short-sighted. The U.S. does not have an official language to enable people to stay in touch with their heritage, let those from Mexico continue to speak Spanish. These people are trying to work *with* English speakers for their job, they took the initiative of learning our language to do so. I'm as annoyed as the next person by the list-readers that are not tech support, usually I'm more irritated with their lack of help than I am with their ability to speak. I am literate and can read the bundled directions for my gadget, I'm calling tech support for a question your booklet doesn't answer.

    It's common for Europeans to be able to speak 3 or more languages. The U.S. doesn't reciprocate that idea, we seem to think that English should be the standard world-wide. We even go so far as to visit a country like France, and if they don't speak English, we speak English slower and LOUDER until they get what we are saying.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[Anonymous Coward]

the reason that many people in Europe speak multiple languages is because they are in close proximity to other countries where these languages are spoken. Europe is kind of like a shattered pane of glass of little countries all mixed together. It makes sense to be able to communicate with people who live near you. When you're from Arkansas.... not so much utility in knowing all these other languages when anyone with a thousand miles of you is an English speaker. It would be a waste of time that you could have spent learning something more useful to you.

We even go so far as to visit a country like France, and if they don't speak English, we speak English slower and LOUDER until they get what we are saying.

I've found a sturdy smack on the temple helps as well.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[DickBreath]

I don't want to be connected to a f***ing call center!

I want to talk to a human being!

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[unixisc]

And that's where Ruby Receptionists come in!

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately no written test can assess the intelligibility of Indian call center/nightmare factory workers. Some have enough technical knowledge of the rudiments of English to pass, while nearly zero % can overcome the stereotypical Indian accent.

Re: Who cares about the drivers,

[Type44Q]

Perhaps because while Uber has plenty of the former, they don't seem to have any of the latter?? ;)

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[Anonymous Coward]

    It's common for Europeans to be able to speak 3 or more languages. The U.S. doesn't reciprocate that idea, we seem to think that English should be the standard world-wide. We even go so far as to visit a country like France, and if they don't speak English, we speak English slower and LOUDER until they get what we are saying.

When I was learning a second language but wasn't very good at it, I sometimes had trouble understanding native speakers. This was because they spoke quickly and not always clearly.

You know what helped me understand them? When they spoke SLOWER and LOUDER.

So maybe you can stop repeating this false idea that speaking English slower and louder is just Americans being stupid.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[alvinrod]

Also some European countries have large population groups that have different cultures and languages. Take a country like Belgium where there are several different groups all within the same country. The northern parts which are Dutch and Flemish culture largely speak Dutch and the southern part of the country in the Wallonian region speak French (or a dialect of it) and then there's a small region on the Eastern part of the country where German is spoken.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's useful to remember that in many cases, English is kind of the world's common language.

It's not so much that people from the US have some strange arrogance that the rest of the world doesn't exist. It's more so that first the British conquered a large amount of the world and then the US became the dominant country -- so English is a kind of standard.

That's why if you want to do international business and you're from France, you probably speak English as well. While it's not so necessary in reverse. It's more useful for those in other countries to learn English since it's so prolific.

Of course this can and most likely will change over the years. In a hundred years most of the world may speak Mandarin and it doesn't make sense for Chinese to spend their time learning some little country's language.

The point is, the water moves with the biggest boat. If you're on the biggest boat everything moves around you.

Re: Who cares about the drivers,

[prefec2]

Learning another language also provides you with cultural information on other countries and is an alternate way to think about anything. It provides you with a second view of the world. This is usually helpful, especially when you live in Arizona or North Dakota.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[AmiMoJo]

UK is the same. We speak English and the universal language of shouting.

This test isn't about speaking skills though. It's the written essay part that is contentious. The last one said "write a short essay about Mars." Not very relevant to diving a taxi.

Re: Who cares about the drivers,

[Anonymous Coward]

Across from N. Dakota, they speak English, more or less. Quebec is further east. Well, across from me.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[sjames]

Once here in the Deep South, I encountered a tourist from Germany who spoke no English. He spoke German slowly and loudly when I didn't appear to understand. Slowly and distinctly enough that I with my 1 year of German years before was able to get the gist of his question and direct him to the park he was looking for.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[painandgreed]

It's common for Europeans to be able to speak 3 or more languages.

And odds are one of them will be English. More than once I've heard someone from France say "Does anybody speak English? I need to find out how to get where I want to go." on a German bus. English (not American) is the de facto language of travellers (and air traffic controllers) because chances are the country you are in has been invaded by the English at some time in history.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[Anonymous Coward]

"...because chances are the country you are in has been invaded by the English at some time in history."

Or will be invaded by the USA some time in the near future. :)

Re: Who cares about the drivers,

[jedidiah]

Not it doesn't. Learning about the relevant country in your foreign language class does to some extent. However this information is pretty much universally ignored by American students based on the general ignorance level in the US.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[painandgreed]

"...because chances are the country you are in has been invaded by the English at some time in history."

Or will be invaded by the USA some time in the near future. :)

We're going to need to spend that increased military budget somehow.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[thegarbz]

The northern parts which are Dutch and Flemish culture largely speak Dutch

That's like saying a piss drunk Irish man speaks American English. Funny story, we were on a bus in Croatia sitting behind 3 girls, and I could make out like 1 in 100 words. Eventually I gave up and asked them what language they were speaking. They said Dutch, I said bullshit. They laughed. Apparently the entirety of their conversation on the bus so far was them complaining to each other that the Dutch couldn't understand them :-)

The divisions within a country are even more severe than you make out.

Re: Who cares about the drivers,

[Anonymous Coward]

What's your Hindi accent like then?

Re: Who cares about the drivers,

[Anonymous Coward]

Non sequitur. He isn't fielding tech support calls from India and speaking Hindi.

Don't try to be clever when you're not capable. It just ends up with you looking stupid,

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[mjwx]

We do. That's why so many are in India.

Where they were taught the Queens English (yay colonialism).

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[mjwx]

UK is the same. We speak English and the universal language of shouting.

This. You can easily spot an Englishman overseas because he's the one who steadfastly believes that any language barrier can be broken simply by shouting loudly in English.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[Pentium100]

While it is common for Europeans to be able to speak foreign languages, you cannot be sure which ones. For example, people in my country usually can speak at least one foreign language. But some speak Russian and others speak English as a second language. Some know both, some know some other languages.

However, I would be incredibly annoyed if I went into a store (or called a taxi) and the employee could not speak the national language well enough to be understood without me asking the same thing multiple times. We have a national language, if you want to live and work here, learn it. If you cannot speak it well enough, get a job that does not require you to talk to clients.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[Pentium100]

But if you go to my country (and probably other countries that were occupied by the USSR), you will find that a lot of older people can speak Russian (it was mandatory to learn in the USSR), but younger people may not, but younger people are more likely to speak English (it is mandatory to learn a second language in school and most schools choose English) than older people.

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[Maritz]

So maybe you can stop repeating this false idea that speaking English slower and louder is just Americans being stupid.

The joke is that speaking louder would help when the listener knows not a single word of the language. Do you understand Korean when spoken slowly and loud?

Re:Who cares about the drivers,

[Maritz]

The last one said "write a short essay about Mars." Not very relevant to diving a taxi.

This test is run by Transport For London. It's not just for taxi drivers.

It's a test of literacy. Do you find it surprising that they don't discuss only transportation? lol.

Newspeak is real

[houghi]

This is not a "Ride-hailing company". It is a taxi company.

Re:Newspeak is real

[Joe_Dragon]

taxi company so do they have drivers with small 'topographical test' in order to obtain a 'Private Hire' Drivers Licence??

and anyone with the knowledge?

Re:Newspeak is real

[squiggleslash]

Ride hailing is actually a perfectly reasonable description. It's "ride sharing" that's the dubious - no, not dubious, more or less completely false - description of the main product.

Re:Newspeak is real

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need The Knowledge to be a private hire driver in London, so I expect not. Uber are, on the other hand, a licenced private hire operator in London, through their subsidiary Uber London Ltd.

I do think "ride-hailing" company is particularly inapposite in this case, though, given that private hire vehicles are expressly *not* allowed to be hailed in London (unlike taxis).

Re:Newspeak is real

[UnknowingFool]

taxi company so do they have drivers with small 'topographical test' in order to obtain a 'Private Hire' Drivers Licence??

Yes private hire licenses require topographical assessment. Called the "The Knowledge" it is the most stringent test in world apparently.

You will need to undertake a topographical skills assessment from an accredited assessment centre

The requirements seem sensible:

• at least 21 years old
• valid drivers license at least 3 years old (no new drivers)
• valid work eligibility in UK (no illegal immigrants)
• background check
• medical exam
• topological test aka "The Knowledge"

Re:Newspeak is real

[whoever57]

I don't think that the "topographical skills assessment" is the same as "the knowledge". Read the exemptions.

Re:Newspeak is real

[retchdog]

"No, the taxi regulations don't apply to us. We're a ride-hailing company, not a taxi company."

"Oh. So, what's the difference?"

"Ride-hailing companies aren't regulated."

"Oh."

Re:Newspeak is real

[Anonymous Coward]

The definition of a taxi is a vehicle that roams around looking for people within visual distance literally hailing rides. After the person enters the car, they communicate their destination to the driver, who, prior to the customer getting in the car, has no idea where they will be going.

The word you wanted was: Livery. A livery car is one which travels to a pre-arranged pickup point, picks up the passenger, and delivers them to a pre-arranged dropoff point.

They seem similar, but they are VERY different legally. Don't confuse the terms. Thanks!

Re:Newspeak is real

[UnknowingFool]

Maybe not but it's not exactly easy

Re:Newspeak is real

[UnknowingFool]

There is a topological test. Not to the level of The Knowledge but the guidelines seem to suggest you have to know your way around London somewhat.

Re:Newspeak is real

[Anonymous Coward]

valid work eligibility in UK (no illegal immigrants)

OMG! That's not sensible at all. You guys are such racists!!

(Right? Or that only the case when Americans discuss illegal immigration?)

Re: Newspeak is real

[dunkelfalke]

Maybe in your country, but not in mine. Here a taxi is a legally a car that transports a customer to place of the customer's choice for a fee. Livery service is, hence, a subtype of a taxi

Re:Newspeak is real

[thegarbz]

"No, the taxi regulations don't apply to us. We're a ride-hailing company, not a taxi company."

"Oh. So, what's the difference?"

"Ride-hailing companies aren't regulated."

"Oh."

Oh aren't they? Then why are they complaining about their drivers losing their private hire licenses?

Your example may be relevant in the USA where taxi monopolies design the regulations, but in many places in the EU (and the UK since we need to get used to addressing them separately) Uber are no different than many taxis other than they set their prices using a different method. Ever Uber I've ever called has the same blue license plate that indicates a car will carry 3rd parties as a taxi, or chartered limo.

Re:Newspeak is real

[Maritz]

They seem similar, but they are VERY different legally. Don't confuse the terms. Thanks!

You're talking about legal definitions and you don't know what country the person you're replying to is in.

"Thanks" indeed.

Re: Newspeak is real

[UnknowingFool]

Unlike the US, the U.K. has a wider range of work eligibility permits. In the US, there is only the H1-B program for immigrants who are not green card holders.

The U.K. allows for foreign nationals to work on temporary permits recognizing that people need to earn a living while not expecting to stay in the U.K. forever. For example, student visas allow them to work. Certain travel visas not only allow people to work but also require that they travel for a certain percentage of their stay.

These visas also have other restrictions like the type of jobs that are allowed. Mainly these are jobs and not careers. For example you can be a short order cool in a restaurant; you can't be a chef. You can be a receptionist; you can't be a manager, and so on.

Barf.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uber against discrimination. But only when it justifies them exploiting people in precarious jobs.

Go broke, greedy assholes.

Re:Barf.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think other corporations are any different? They have no morals. Only bottom lines.

Re:Barf.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uber does seem a fair bit worse than other companies. Most companies at least play lip service to the law. Uber openly flaunts it.

Re:Barf.

[octothorpe99]

Did you mean "flout"?

Re:Barf.

[Anonymous Coward]

Airbnb springs to mind....

https://www.technobuffalo.com/2016/02/11/airbnb-used-dirty-tactics-to-clean-up-1000-new-york-city-listings/

Re:Barf.

[nbauman]

Did you mean "flout"?

That's why Uber so obnoxious. Not only do they flout the law, they also flaunt it.

Long settled (at least in US)

[Anonymous Coward]

The proposals would have a disproportionate impact on drivers from countries where English was not generally spoken and give rise to "indirect discrimination on grounds of race and nationality."

In US, discrimination is illegal UNLESS it is demonstrable that discrimination is directly related to one's job.

Re:Long settled (at least in US)

[LQ]

In US, discrimination is illegal UNLESS it is demonstrable that discrimination is directly related to one's job.

In the UK (according to ACAS http://www.acas.org.uk/index.a...) "an employer [...] can insist on recruiting a job candidate who has skills in English necessary for the job, but it must not select based on assumptions about race, nationality, or ethnic or national origins."

Re:Long settled (at least in US)

[Stewie241]

But the kind of interesting thing here is that discriminating on things based on language skills (deemed to be directly related to the job here by the government), are usually limitations of the law *allowing* employer's to be discriminatory. In this case, the government is *requiring* the employer (Uber) to discriminate and apply these standards.

It would be interesting if there was some way to get a sense of what the baseline language expectations are? Is this just trying to stick it to Uber because they don't like them and are trying to find a way to make it harder for them (and thus are the language expectations, as Uber claimed, too stringent?) or do these drivers really not understand enough language to perform the job competently?

I'm struggling to understand why Uber drivers would need to much proficiency in written English; but maybe that's just me (have only taken Uber a few times but have never had the driver have to write something down).

Re:Long settled (at least in US)

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently the standard is relatively high - they've got to write basic essays on subjects and there is a (very small) element of literature with it. Some may see it as a bit over the top, especially as it's not *required* for the job, but I think it's good to make sure they have a strong baseline for any situation rather than just know how to answer questions around their job.

I've seen it happen in companies where they've basically made employees rote learn basic phrases without really knowing what they mean - receptionists basically responding 'I'll get someone to look into that for you' without having any clue what you've asked and it's extremely annoying. This is amplified in cases where they could be asked questions like 'is it safe here' or 'can you call the ambulance for me'

Re:Long settled (at least in US)

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had a look and for taxi drivers the required level is B1. I've had a look at some B1-level tests, and even though I'm a foreigner who has never lived in an Anglophone country and whose English is far from perfect, I must say the tests looked really easy.

Re:Long settled (at least in US)

[mark-t]

Uh, no. In fact, you kind of have it backwards.

In the US, the only things you cannot discriminate for are those in "protected categories". The protected category list currently includes race, age, religion, marital status, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, physical or mental disability, and veteran status. There might be a couple of other reasons in there, but to the best of my recollection, that's about it.

Notwithstanding, it *is* legal to discriminate against someone in the US for even one of the protected category criteria if you can demonstrate that the particular criteria being discriminated for is directly related to the position being applied for, such as gender for a model.

By no means is it illegal to discriminate based on factors that are not explicitly in the protected category list, and the relevance of a particular factor not in that list to a job is entirely immaterial.

Re:Long settled (at least in US)

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is fair enough, you're only discriminating on knowledge which is completely relevant and anyone can learn English so it's not discriminating on race. I know plenty of foreigners who speak better English than many Brits.

Re:Long settled (at least in US)

[jabuzz]

This is the UK and basically if you can make the case that a certain level of language skills is required then you are entitled to discriminate on those grounds. Generally public facing roles fall into that category and the Judge has accepted Transport for London's argument that in an English speaking country it is reasonable that those offering services to the public have to be able to communicate adequately with them in the native language of the country.

If Uber's legal council told them they had a chance of winning then they need better legal council. Chances are the legal council told them they would loose but they insisted on proceeding.

Re:Long settled (at least in US)

[gnasher719]

But the kind of interesting thing here is that discriminating on things based on language skills (deemed to be directly related to the job here by the government), are usually limitations of the law *allowing* employer's to be discriminatory. In this case, the government is *requiring* the employer (Uber) to discriminate and apply these standards.

In this case, Uber states quite clearly that they are not an employer. And the "speak English" test is to determine whether you are allowed to drive people around in England. Uber is clearly allowed to hire someone who only speaks Indian, and put them on a plane to India where they can drive. Or hire them as a car washer. That person is just not allowed to drive people around.

Re: Long settled (at least in US)

[Type44Q]

...who only speaks Indian

Did your ignorant self mean to say"Hindi?" 'Cause I know fuckall languages by that name... ;)

Re: Long settled (at least in US)

[Anonymous Coward]

...who speak English better than many Brits.

Re: Long settled (at least in US)

[Maritz]

Nope, what he said was just fine. Sorry.

What if Uber wins?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, if Uber wins the appeal you have to hire people you cannot communicate with or you'll get sued for discrimination?

I'm surprised there hasn't been a widespread media campaign already, calling employers racist because they require language proficiency.

Re:What if Uber wins?

[Maritz]

So, if Uber wins the appeal you have to hire people you cannot communicate with or you'll get sued for discrimination?

This is about Transport For London.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a widespread media campaign already, calling employers racist because they require language proficiency.

You're really easily surprised.

Uber's reaction

[Anonymous Coward]

We already spent a fortune stealing Alphabets' top AV engineers. Now we need to raid Amazon for their speech rec guys too?

Re:Uber's reaction

[DickBreath]

How would Uber feel if the situation were reversed? What if another company raided Uber to poach key employees for their high ethical standards, sense of fair play, and observance of the law?

Re: Uber's reaction

[Type44Q]

And the correct answer is... corporations don't feel emotions.

Super common sense.

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as I'm a fan of Uber, I just can't even vaguely take their side on this one.

I've been in a number of taxis (of all sorts, from many different companies) and struggled communicating where I wanted to go with the driver, and it's the last thing you want to do - especially in a city you don't know. If the driver can't even fulfil the most basic obligation of their job, then it's not really the job for them.

I feel that the courts are basically just enforcing the very most 'basic customer service standards', and I just can't see a problem with that. They're not over-reaching, and it's something that many countries (or parts of countries like Quebec) insist on for customer facing jobs.

I mean it's totally unfair.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with Uber on this. Noone in London, Great Britain, should be required to speak English. It's a clear discrimination to require someone to speak English in England. I mean which stupid racist thought up this ridiculous requirement.

I have to wonder though. Given that terms of service and all information is in English how does Uber expect them to enter into valid contractual agreement if they cannot fucking understand English? Oh right.

Re:I mean it's totally unfair.

[unixisc]

Maybe Uber should redo their rules so that any passenger who wants to use their ride must have a working knowledge of Urdu or Bangladeshi.

Re:I mean it's totally unfair.

[Anonymous Coward]

they are welcome too...but they will not get much business. Stop with your utter. bullshit. If you cant comminicqte in the common tongue..ENGLISH for England and the USA you have no business being a taxi driver or working with the public. Dontlike it...move to Bangalore to speak tour bangladessh....here as in England we speak English MFER.

Re:I mean it's totally unfair.

[unixisc]

Uh, Bangalore is not in Bangladesh. FWIW, I was being facetious and suggested that since Uber seems to think little about the need for their customers to understand their drivers. You are a complete idiot for not reading that

Re:I mean it's totally unfair.

[Maritz]

they are welcome too..

If you cant comminicqte in the common tongue..ENGLISH for

That's either a cracking troll or an idiot attempting to punch a hole in reality with sheer irony.

If you can't mandate English in England..

[swb]

Does anyone really have a problem with requiring public hire drivers speak the local language? I mean, it is a place called "England" and presumably it's called "English" because it is the indigenous language of the people of England.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

This is discrimating against the dumb. You mean dumb are required to also speak in English cause they are in England.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really the indigenous language - more the evolved language of a couple of invasions over two millenia. The closest thing to indigenous 'English' (really British) would be Welsh

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[garyok]

Uber cabs are not public hire (that would be black cabs in London), they're private hire. You can't flag them on the street. But I have no problem with the ruling. You need to be able to talk to your taxi driver. You might have a preferred route, or need to give instructions round a one-way system, or tell them to let you out at the shops. It's a customer-facing position and it demands a certain level of communication skills, in this case an acceptable standard in the nation's official language.

And it's not like Uber are sticking up for the hard-working, hard-done-by drivers here. They just need warm bodies to keep accruing marketshare until the Johnnycabs are certified and they can ditch the lot of them.

Re: If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

Cornish and Breton have a finger in that pie too.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[whoever57]

This ruling applies to all private-hire drivers, but I think that it has become necessary because of Uber.

In the pre-Uber days, a private hire driver was dispatched by an office that could communicate with the driver. This means that the driver always had a translation service available to him/her (the dispatch office).

With Uber, the driver has no such resource available for translations. Perhaps as translation apps on cellphones get better, English proficiency won't be required.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[houghi]

It is just so no Scots are able to work in London.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[stephanruby]

But that's the thing, Uber already has a pretty good system for weeding out non-English speakers. And if only the taxi system in the US actually copied the Uber rating system, the US taxi system would quickly get rid of its non-English speakers.

Disclaimer: I am an Uber driver in the US and I would actually financially benefit if the US copied the UK, but honestly, I believe this is a solved problem for Uber and this complaint is just a pretext. The real issue is that many people hate Uber (many Uber drivers included) and this supposed test is just a way to stick it to Uber in the UK and reduce its workforce.

Uber will have a reduced workforce. It won't be able to cover as much ground. It will take longer to get an Uber when a passenger requests one. The system will become much less reliable (like it did in France. Uber is almost useless in France right now). Many of the non-English speakers/former drivers will get themselves on the dole instead. Many drunk drivers will also return on the road. Then Northern Ireland and Wales will also demand to get in on the action by demanding that a similar test in Gaelic and in Welsh be used in their area for at least a certain percentage of Uber drivers.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

Relevant NSFW movie clip

Re: If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Uber is a private company that serves its own interests.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[liquid_schwartz]

Does anyone really have a problem with requiring public hire drivers speak the local language? I mean, it is a place called "England" and presumably it's called "English" because it is the indigenous language of the people of England.

I know that where I live, the Peoples Republic of California, any rules about English only are viewed by many as tools of oppression against "undocumented immigrants" and the brown man in general. Of course this is also a state where the citizens can't figure out which bathroom to use and are spending billions on a bullet train to nowhere while actually used infrastructure rots so I have low expectations on common sense.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[moronoxyd]

But that's the thing, Uber already has a pretty good system for weeding out non-English speakers.[...] The real issue is that many people hate Uber (many Uber drivers included) and this supposed test is just a way to stick it to Uber in the UK and reduce its workforce.

That makes no sense.
If Uber already weeds out non-English speakers, Uber will not be affected by this ruling, so the Uber workforce will not be reduced.
If the Uber fworkforce is being reduced due to this ruling, it means that a substancial part of the Uber workfoce doesn't speak English well enough, which means that Uber does not have a 'pretty good system' to weed out non-English speakers.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[MobyDisk]

We need a a "-5 Insightful, but ad-hominem attack" moderation for posts like the above. A way of saying "I see you are smart and posted something that could have added to the discussion, but then you blew it."

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[swb]

That's a little like saying that the North American "Indian" languages aren't really indigenous because they brought with them languages when they crossed the Bering Straits.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

UK law has definitions of "taxi" and "private hire", and the grandparent meant "private hire" as defined in UK law.

"Private hire" is when a vehicle picks up someone who has *pre-booked* and takes them somewhere, for money. Note that phoning or using an app and saying "I want to go now" still counts as pre-booked for the purpose of the law. So Uber is actually doing "private hire". (There's an exception in the law for genuine ride-sharing where you only pay petrol money).

Only a "taxi" can be hailed on the street and can use officially marked taxi ranks.

"Taxis" and "private hire vehicles" have to be inspected and licensed by the local council. "Taxi" is the stricter level of licensing - all "taxis" are also allowed to do "private hire", but not all "private hire vehicles" are "taxis". For examples of the rules, both taxis and private hire vehicles have to carry a fire extinguisher; taxis in London must be black (and taxis in Bristol must be Bristol Blue); taxis in London must be wheelchair-accessible.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[joboss]

I think drivers should have some minimal reading skill and speaking skill. Basic though. You need to read signs, communicate with customers, etc. The company should consider offering some language training in cases.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

In your world you can't be trespassed from Walmart because it's a public business, therefore you're on public property. Right?

If so, no point answering you, you're too far gone, sorry.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[swb]

Maybe I'm some kind of fascist, but I think making English the official language of the US makes a bunch of sense. Obviously not forcing anyone to speak it privately, but I think it would go a long way towards ensuring a cultural assimilation and stamping out the kind of cultural ghettos that Europe seems to have problems with. And really, it's probably a softer technique than banning mosques and other more heavy-handed techniques.

My parents' neighbor (elderly) was the child of Polish immigrants. She said they spoke Polish at home. One day in her early teens she went to a downtown department store with her older sisters. They were at the counter and a sister was asking the clerk questions. She asked her older sister a question in Polish (even though she knew what they were talking about in English) and her sister wouldn't respond to her. After they left the store her sister got mad and told her not to speak in Polish in those situations because it made people look down on you.

It's interesting, because I don't think today's immigrants feel that compelled to assimilate. In the situation described to me, there was a really strong motivation to embrace English.

Re: If you can't mandate English in England..

[Type44Q]

...them languages

They picked that up when they got to Arkansas.

Re: If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

We need an official religion too for the same reason. Not Muslim obviously, and not jewy ones. Good Christian values. But which version? Not Koreshian, Catholic or Mormonism obviously, but what about Baptist vs Lutheran vs Evangelican? Which specific interpretation should be the official one?

Re: If you can't mandate English in England..

[drinkypoo]

Which specific interpretation should be the official one?

Atheism, obviously. It's the natural evolution of Christianity when you add education.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

I can hear the judge quoting Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction:
"English MF! Do you speak it?"

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[thegarbz]

Do you even know what private hire means? Uber is a PUBLIC business that serves the PUBLIC.

He may. You... I'm pretty certain you don't.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[TheSync]

"English" because it is the indigenous language of the people of England.

English is the language of the Anglo-Saxon invaders, later bastardized by Norman French invaders.

Common Britannic (which developed into Welsh and Cornish) is the indigenous language of England...

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[AmiMoJo]

It's the level of skill required that is at issue. Speaking English is one thing, but the requirement here is to pass a written exam with essay section that school kids study two years for.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[dunkelfalke]

Obviously not forcing anyone to speak it privately, but I think it would go a long way towards ensuring a cultural assimilation and stamping out the kind of cultural ghettos that Europe seems to have problems with.

Except most European countries do have official languages. Why do you think it would help in the USA if it doesn't help in Europe? Especially considering how USA has failed to integrate black people for over a century?

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

No true Scotsmen, anyway.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[nbauman]

Perhaps he comes from one of those parts of the country where "fucking moron" is a standard address.

oh_my_080980980: Fucking moron!

Mom: Hello, son.

Re: If you can't mandate English in England..

[Anonymous Coward]

No. They aren't even right. Ãoeber is a private hire company. Those words have meaning, even legal meaning, and the private hire being accessed by the public is exactly what private hire companies do.

I'll assume you're an untraveled American.

Re: If you can't mandate English in England..

[Maritz]

Holy shit, way to miss the point.

Re:If you can't mandate English in England..

[Maritz]

Then Northern Ireland and Wales will also demand to get in on the action by demanding that a similar test in Gaelic and in Welsh be used in their area for at least a certain percentage of Uber drivers.

Sometimes, the 'thin end of the wedge' type argument is a fallacy. This is one of those times.

Liberals to the rescue!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's racist and sexist to demand that English be used in the UK!!!

Re:Liberals to the rescue!

[fiannaFailMan]

I stopped reading at "liberals." The fact that you people have spent so many years using that word as a term of abuse is one of the reasons we have such a polarized society at this point. Conservatives need to let go of their hatred before it's too late.

Re:Liberals to the rescue!

[Anonymous Coward]

AND their worship of money as well.

Re: Liberals to the rescue!

[Anonymous Coward]

The conservative movement IS hatred at this point. It used to be, nominally, fiscal restraint, raising taxes to pay for war, that sort of thing. It ain't that no mo'

Re:Liberals to the rescue!

[jedidiah]

The biggest problem with liberalism is liberals.

That would be people that are driven by what "feels right" versus what "makes sense". They will happily ignore important legal principles that protect us from tyranny so long as they happen to be getting their way. They give no thought to the future or potential consequences.

They only fixate on getting the free rainbow unicorn. They give no consideration to how much the stable fees will be.

Modern liberals also have also abandoned classical liberal values. They deserve scorn an derision just for that.

Re:Liberals to the rescue!

[serviscope_minor]

Well you just proved the parent's point.

Re:Liberals to the rescue!

[Maritz]

Who is saying this apart from Uber? Link please. Thanks

Re:Liberals to the rescue!

[Maritz]

The biggest problem with liberalism is liberals.

They only fixate on getting the free rainbow unicorn.

Thanks, I needed a lol. What the fuck are you on about anyway? You don't like liberals, is that it? I daresay what counts as a 'liberal' to you all boils down to how you feel at that particuar moment, no?

If not, go ahead and define liberal please.

Luddites

[Anonymous Coward]

TFL is behaving like flat-earthers and Luddites.

many TFL staff struggles in English and other cabs are also not experts in English

Why wasn't this in the Firehose?

[hackertourist]

https://slashdot.org/recent doesn't list this story. If it had, I'd have voted it down. The constant flood of Uber stories is getting annoying.

When will judges finally serve them giant fines?

[Kergan]

This company deserves to get fined for all it's worth for its rampant trampling of regulations, consumer protection laws, and poisonous work culture.

It boggles the mind that they're still attracting drivers and customers after so many years of being openly obnoxious.

Re:The London Uber Driver

[Anonymous Coward]

I learned everything I'll ever need to know about Muslims on 9-11.

Re: The London Uber Driver

[Anonymous Coward]

sed s/Muslim/Ashkenazi/g

FTFY.

There is no Muslim race.

Re:The London Uber Driver

[Anonymous Coward]

I have got to save this as copypasta.

Ironic summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Ride-hailing service Uber lost a court battle on Friday to stop a London regulator from forcing private hire drivers to prove THEIR reading and writing skills in English,...

Re:Ironic summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Ride-hailing service Uber lost a court battle on Friday to stop a London regulator from forcing private hire drivers to prove THEIR reading and writing skills in English,...

I don't see the problem here. In modern English, the possessive pronoun points back to the closest qualified subject that matches the gender and plurality, which would be "private hire drivers".

If picking nits, what's wrong in this sentence it's "prove ... skills". You cannot prove skills more than you can prove sand; you can prove evidence of or possession of skills.

Re:Ironic summary

[Maritz]

Ironic if you're Alanis Morisette, maybe.

Re:Your typical Uber driver

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you the same AC who posted "The London Uber Driver?" Don't answer that. I just wanted to say that I found "The London Uber Driver" to be artistic in its depravity and subtle resourcefulness of calling upon and conflating multiple sources of disgust in humans, some instinctual such as inbreeding, some confused for instinctual such as hatred and/or pity of African peoples.

However, this one I find lacking. You've gone for mistreatment of women, bestiality and homosexuality, but you came short of allowing the three to properly simmer and stew together. There is a common theme here: sexual deviancy. Yet this one falls short of achieving the full realization of that theme.

France and languages

[DrYak]

It's funny that you mention France, because inside Europe, they are known to be notoriously worse at languages (specially regarding English).

And it's probably because of the same reasons: it's a (relatively) big country (on the scale of Europe), you can easily get around using french in lots of places (oversea territories in south america, former colonies all over africa including from north, qebec in canada, etc.), and they are really proud of their unified culture.

Also in the specific case of english, it doesn't help in that it's as different as you can get from french, (spanish, italian, etc. are much easier to learn for french because they are much closer. German still has closer sonority to french than english).

Re:France and languages

[cshay]

I have found this is true in Germany as well. Overall, English proficiency is much worse than in other countries.

Bout freaking time

[PontifexMaximus]

This is long overdue in virtually every civilized country. Nothing annoys the hell out of me more than listening to someone and having to ask multiple times what the hell they said. When I visit other countries, I expect to be able to communicate with them clearly in their language (except for France, fuck those cheese eating surrender monkeys). It's a shame the liberals want to allow anyone to just walk into the country, then the citizens have to cater to them, rather than vice-versa. Sick and tired of dealing with Hispanics who refuse to learn English (and my wife has SEVERAL hispanic parents who refuse to learn English -- she's a 4th grade teacher) and expect us to learn Spanish instead.

Personally, we should scrap regional languages and use Latin for everything. That way it's not tied of a region and everyone will struggle with it for a while.

Re:Bout freaking time

[Maritz]

It's a shame the liberals want to allow anyone to just walk into the country

What's an even bigger shame is an apparently grown man unable to argue against peoples' real position, and instead having to strawman and put words in others' mouths.

Shame? Deeply pathetic really.

English is their first and only official language

[Anonymous Coward]

You're in london, and I believe english is their only official language. Tough it up boys, if you can't speak the language, maybe you shouldn't be in a public service job. I have zero sympathy here. If I was in Japan, I would be expected to know Japanese. Worse, there's actually a form of super polite japanese spoken by people who's job it is to deal with the public, and I'd be tested on that as part of my job interview.

So, ya, sorry Uber, you lose.

The value of clear communication

[fiannaFailMan]

I once got into a taxi at an airport in Chicago. Before we set off the driver pointed at the meter talking in thick Pidgin English that I could barely understand. The only word I could pick out was "meter." I just nodded politely and said yes because I wanted to get to my hotel for a meeting. When I got to the hotel he started wrangling with me to about paying more than was on the meter, apparently he had turned it off at some stage of the journey for some unfathomable reason. He got really belligerent about it too. The hotel was reimbursing me for the trip and after about five minutes of him, the hotel concierge and me trying to discuss it I just asked the manager to reimburse him what he wanted because I hadn't a clue what was going on and it was only another $20 or so.

I know that some people like apps like Uber because they minimize human communication, but it's still a vital skill. As long as you're not asking drivers to write a book report on Ulysses by Joyce, expecting them to communicate clearly in the local language is not too much to ask for.

Re:The value of clear communication

[HornWumpus]

Ulysses...English. I think you haven't read it.

It is more coherent than _Finnigan's_Wake_. But that is saying very little.

Re: The value of clear communication

[Type44Q]

Ulysses by Joyce

To be fair to the parent, Ulysses by Joyce' would indeed be challen'ging to write a report on...

Re:The value of clear communication

[King_TJ]

Exactly.... I don't call for an Uber because I'm looking forward to a long chat with the driver. But it's terrible service when they can't even communicate well enough to figure out where I want to go, or how to pick us up.

I had that experience in Rockville, MD recently when a group of us got tired of waiting on a MARC commuter train that had major delays. I called for an Uber but the driver who accepted it was unable to locate us. I could see him circling the vicinity on the map in the app, but he wasn't turning down the right side road to enter the "park and ride" lot where we were waiting. He called my cell at some point, trying to ask where we were, but it was impossible communicating that to him. He got frustrated and canceled our ride.

Tourist-level english ? Or university litterature

[DrYak]

A far as I've understood, the complain of Uber is that the official level imposed to cab driver is much more strict than uber asks from its driver.

Because of this uber is going to lose lots of driver who know enough bits of english to be functional in communicating with the client (e.g understand where to drive them), but who don't have advanced written/oral comprehension.

I.e.: Uber needs and selects people with A1 levels of language proficiency,
London imposes B2 levels on cab drivers.(*)

Or in other words, it's not london only requiring that people who handle services to english-speaking client to be able to communicate in English, but Uber complaining that their drivers don't need to be able to write an essay.(*)

---

(*) : According to Trinity College who handles such tests, cab drivers are in fact required to have B1 level of english language proficiency, which does include reading/writing comprehension.

the A levels are basic communication/survival (ask your way arround, go shopping, etc.)
the B levels are more complex communication (be able to tell a story, describe your dream(**), etc.)
The C levels are more or less academic (be able to do your studies in that language, among other, etc.)

(**) : I kid you not. "Dreams" are mentioned in the official criteria for language.
Though I'm sure, depending on they are high on, some /.ers would require languages which have not be invented yet, just to describe what went through during their dreams.

Re:English is their first and only official langua

[Anonymous Coward]

I've worked in Japan for 3 months at a coffee shop, and didn't speak any Japanese.
I've worked in Germany at a hotel restaurant for a year, and didn't speak any German.
I spoke English.
I interacted with people in English.
People interacted with me in a smattering of languages: German, Spanish, Dutch, English, etc.
They understood well enough what I was saying, I understood well enough what they were saying.
We couldn't have a conversation, but for the sake of working within a well defined domain, it didn't matter.

* In both positions, I was hired because I spoke fluent English, and can interact with more demanding tourists, or to explain in simple wording complex emails or documents to other native-language employees. When limiting your vocabulary to that of Wikipedia -Simple English, cross language communication works well. They used simple German to talk to me. It worked quite well.

Re:When will judges finally serve them giant fines

[TimMD909]

This company deserves to get fined for all it's worth for its rampant trampling of regulations, consumer protection laws, and poisonous work culture.

It boggles the mind that they're still attracting drivers and customers after so many years of being openly obnoxious.

They're still leaps and bounds better than the taxi companies, which is why they're still here. If you're not able to drive somewhere you want to go, you're probably not going to be thinking about their corporate culture. You're going to be more interested in: how much will it cost, and when will you get there? It's not like everyone refuses to buy clothes until all the sweatshops are closed. They need clothes. Don't care where they come from. Same with Uber.

Jeez, what next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they going to force "ride-sharing" drivers in London to prove, via formal examination, that they have Knowledge all the streets in the city and can find even the most arcane of addresses?

Re:The London Uber Driver

[Maritz]

Islam is a religion. Do you talk about the catholic 'race'? Actually, reading your post, maybe you do - because you're obviously painfully stupid.

Re:Your typical Uber driver

[Anonymous Coward]

I could have written that, not believing it, but making it funny. You didn't even make it funny. The reason you didn't make it funny is probably: you can't. Because being funny requires being smart.