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Your Boss Is Not More Stressed Out Than You, Science Says (vice.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Work under capitalism is a brutal psychological gauntlet -- low pay, long hours, and little to no safety net. But bosses usually expect you to take some solace in the fact that you're not doing their (supposedly more difficult) job, even if they make more money. Some part of you might think that's bullshit, but hey, what do you know? Well, according to new work from researchers from the University of Manchester, University College London, and the University of Essex, it probably is bullshit. According to their study, published on Friday in the Journals of Gerontology, people lower on the corporate ladder are, on average, more stressed than people higher up. Worse, according to the study, the elevated stress continues into retirement for average working people. 'Workers in lower status jobs tend to have more stressful working conditions -- they have lower pay, poorer pension arrangements, less control over their work, and report more unsupportive colleagues and managers,' Tarani Chandola, a professor of medical sociology at the University of Manchester and one of the paper's authors, wrote me in an email.

245 comments

  1. Correlation != causation by dmt0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe being better at dealing with stress is what allows you to climb higher up the corporate ladder.

    1. Re:Correlation != causation by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or, maybe succeeding in capitalism is easy once you've got enough capital.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    2. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      may be being a psychopath means you don't give a fuck about people, so your less stressed.

      (would seem to tie in with the research that indicates most bosses tend to be psychopaths)

    3. Re:Correlation != causation by justthinkit · · Score: 0

      Maybe Tarani Chandola's definition of stress is wrong.

      'Workers in lower status jobs tend to have more stressful working conditions -- they have lower pay, poorer pension arrangements, less control over their work, and report more unsupportive colleagues and managers'

      Lower pay doesn't equal more stressful.
      Poor management of money equals more stressful.
      "When your outflow exceeds your income, your upkeep becomes your downfall." ...Just ask anyone trying to live in San Francisco right now.

      Less control of your work is only stressful if you let it be.
      I worked in the computer section of a part of a University. Dealing with the high average incompetence level of others was stressful until I asked a simple question: "How would someone else deal with this same situation?" Once I realized that they would be fairing worse than I was, I relaxed (and my stress level plummeted).

      "and report more unsupportive colleagues"...do you _really_ think that upper mgmt is supportive of each other? If you do, I've got a bridge to sell you.

      --
      I come here for the love
    4. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe being better at dealing with stress is what allows you to climb higher up the corporate ladder.

      If by "dealing" you mean "taking out your stress on your underlings" and "shifting your responsibilities, and hence your stress, to other people, including your underlings". Just like Trump is a great President at a company. That doesn't make him a good leader, a good US President, or generally worth feeling sorry for. Seriously:

      “I loved my previous life. I had so many things going,” [Trump] told Reuters reporters. “This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier.”

      So, yes, he thought being US President would be easier because moving up the corporate ladder (or at least, expanding down since I don't think he was ever not at the top) always meant more and more delegation and less and less work/stress. So, I'd definitely say correlation == causation in this case.

      PS - Sorry about threadjacking in Trump, but it actually seemed relevant.

    5. Re:Correlation != causation by king+neckbeard · · Score: 2

      Lower pay makes money management much easier. Plus, better food, better beds, better stress relief increases productivity, while a lack of those things can result in a downward spiral that's difficult to escape. I've lived on both sides of the poverty line, and just being above it makes a world of difference.

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      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    6. Re:Correlation != causation by Solandri · · Score: 1

      All the people I know making $500,000/yr or more are workaholics. They willingly work 12-16 hours/day not because they have to, but because they enjoy it. It's not stressful to them, it's fun, even relaxing. To them, stress comes from not being allowed to work. The wife of one of those friends (who makes approx $2 mil/yr) was telling me about their vacation in Hawaii. She had to constantly pull laptops, tablets, and phones out of her husband's hands because he kept trying to work, instead of enjoying the time off with her and their kids. She had to confiscate all his electronics to force him to not-work, like taking away a kid's 3DS. That put him so much on edge that eventually she compromised and allowed him to work on his laptop in the evening at the hotel. But in exchange the rest of the day was no-electronics.

    7. Re:Correlation != causation by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      If by "dealing" you mean "taking out your stress on your underlings"

      Managers that get angry and lash out at subordinates are those that handle stress poorly. Anger does not relieve stress.

      "shifting your responsibilities, and hence your stress, to other people, including your underlings".

      That is what underlings are for. Good managers delegate (shift responsibilities), poor managers micromanage. Which would you rather work for?

    8. Re:Correlation != causation by Gavagai80 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You can live on minimum wage by managing your money well. You can never be secure on minimum wage though, and insecurity is the cause of stress. Knowing that you're one injury or one layoff from being homeless makes it hard to sleep at night.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    9. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capital? Or you a Marxist-poodle or what? Mucho-capital didn't help Sears, Packard Auto, NYC-RR, DEC, Lehman Bro or US Steel. Piggy investors, dumb management and lax workers will kill you every time!

    10. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the $2M/year crowd, how much actual "work" does one do? He probably wasn't coding something, or writing documentation, or whatever. Unless you're a total micromanager and have no trust in your subordinates, you're not doing actual work at that level.

      Interestingly, this is why I'd never last in a management position. I have no confidence in anyone other than myself getting something I'm responsible for done. I would be too involved and don't want to subject people under me to that.

    11. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Putting up with a workaholic is one of the costs of marrying self-made multi-millionaires.

      Fortunately, she only has to put up with it for a few years. Then she can divorce him, take most of his money with her, and also get a salary from him (in return for nothing). She will be set for life.

    12. Re:Correlation != causation by king+neckbeard · · Score: 2

      I didn't say it was perfect or foolproof. But our economic system is a form of capitalism, and owning capital is the easiest way to make money in such a system (hence the name). This is especially true when so many people with power straddle the line of not having enough compassion to pay their workers a decent wage, but aren't dispassionate enough to see that well-paid workers are more productive.

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    13. Re:Correlation != causation by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Anger doesn't relieve stress. Releasing anger does, however, and lashing out relieves anger.

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      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    14. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Managers that get angry and lash out at subordinates are those that handle stress poorly. Anger does not relieve stress.

      Great spin there, boss. What you mean to say is that managers that get angry and lash out at subordinates are easily stressed and handle dealing with that stress poorly. It doesn't mean they aren't overall less stressed or they don't relieve stress in those circumstances. Meanwhile, their subordinates who are being lashed out are stressed by their managers. So, even if it didn't relieve their stress in any way, their subordinates likely would be more stressed precisely because their manager will lash out at them multiple times for each stress they have.

      That is what underlings are for. Good managers delegate (shift responsibilities), poor managers micromanage. Which would you rather work for?

      More awesome spin. How about I want a boss who does his job, not "delegate" his job to his underlings on top of whatever is their normal work load and then yell at them for any small failures on their part as part of micromanaging? Because you're going to have more micromanagement from a boss who has lots of free time than one who's actually busy doing their job. And from above, you're going to see more stress on the underlings who are being abused than whatever abuse the manager gets.

      Seriously, open your eyes.

    15. Re:Correlation != causation by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      It appears that the only things you consider work are things you're familiar with. Management involves many functions, including budgeting, scheduling, general planning, making hiring and firing decisions, making status reports, writing proposals, handling personal conflicts, and much more.

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    16. Re:Correlation != causation by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 0

      Or, maybe succeeding in capitalism is easy once you've got enough capital.

      Because that's what managers are known for having.

    17. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He could have been an executive getting updates on various things. (Latest customer satisfaction ratings from each phone support call center etc), emails, various reports, etc.

      I've met a lot of executives that get... I'd say addicted to being in the loop and knowing what's going on at work at any given moment. They try to go on vacation and it just doesn't work. Their brain needs that info. It need to know that

      a) things aren't going to go down the sewer without them there

      b) they're not going to come back to 1,200 email messages and have to spend 2 weeks getting up to speed again.

    18. Re: Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spoken like someone who's never been a manager.

    19. Re:Correlation != causation by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Well if that improves your fitness for survival then I guess it's OK.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    20. Re:Correlation != causation by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Call it "I got mine, fuck you". Or if you're of a Biblical bent, "To him that hath shall be given".

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    21. Re: Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a different AC. But he's right.

      Yes, you are supposed to delegate. But a lot of managers delegate their management tasks too and then have tantrums whenever something doesn't go the way they want it to. Which reduces their job to basically screaming at people and collecting a pay check.

      Having been a manager myself and having worked for both good managers and poor, there is a clear difference between the two types which is brutally obvious except to the most blind.

    22. Re:Correlation != causation by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Right. Because the CEO has to do all those things himself.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    23. Re:Correlation != causation by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You can never be secure on minimum wage though

      Especially if you're on a zero-hours contract. But yaywootahundredandeleventyone, gig economy and appy appy APPS!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    24. Re: Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe Mel Brooks was right: it's good to be king.

    25. Re:Correlation != causation by ProudParanoid · · Score: 0

      You can never be secure on minimum wage though

      Security is illusory. Just ask those living in a peaceful suburb that suddenly have refugees swarming their streets and raping their women.

      Once you accept that security is an illusion, and do the simple things it takes to manage $x.xx, no matter the size of $x.xx, you will be at a low level of stress.

      The excess pursuit of money is the root of all illusion.

    26. Re:Correlation != causation by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Being a workaholic doesn't mean they are useful or productive.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    27. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never heard of a swarm of refugees raping people living peacefully in an American suburb. What country do you refer to this as a problem?

    28. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Fuck You" is the proper response to someone who says "Fuck you, gimme yours!"

    29. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your post is the first one to mention CEOs. Up until then, the subject was managers in general.

    30. Re:Correlation != causation by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      What does the country have to do with this? This is a discussion about money bringing (or not bringing) happiness.

      --
      I come here for the love
    31. Re:Correlation != causation by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      At 2 million a year we aren't talking about a shift supervisor at Mickey D.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    32. Re: Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called the pussy tax.

    33. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe being amoral bastards, help them to sleep with out gilt of squeezing other peoples and living the life while at the same time denying their employees decent salary rises
      Of course being busy with those meetings, work dining and so many emails..can be very hard work, so much so that remains a mystery how so many CEOs like to work into their seventies and eighties while many low paid workers look like dead meat after their sixties, who knows, maybe rich people are made better

    34. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GGP's statement sounded like he was claiming some real place had a problem with an influx of refugees, so it's only natural to ask where it is.

      The discussion is improved if we limit ourselves to non-fiction.

    35. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sears, Packard Auto, NYC-RR, DEC, Lehman Bro or US Steel

      Those aren't people, they are voluntary associations of people with a common goal of making money. The associations may not be around anymore, but the people who started them made vast sums of money. So they were ultimately successes.

    36. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe being a schizophrenic enabler of neo-fascist corporate authoritarianism allows you to climb higher up the corporate ladder.
      I wouldn't really know - I have avoided those fuckwits for as along as I can recall (30+ years in various workforces around the globe)- they're just not permitted in my social circles, as they are inherently unreliable.

      Besides, I'm currently having a nervous breakdown from management harrassment after my health and safety whistleblowing became an embarrassment to the powers above, so I'm not terribly objective. :)

    37. Re:Correlation != causation by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Lower pay doesn't equal more stressful. Poor management of money equals more stressful.

      My primary money management technique has been to earn lots of it and not spend it all. Easy and reasonably effective, under the circumstances. If an unexpected expense comes up, I either accept it into the money stream or I pull some money out of the ever-growing savings. I can do impulse purchases as long as I don't get too silly about it. If I lost my job, I'd be fine.

      If I didn't make much money, I'd have to budget carefully, and sometimes the budgeted amounts would be insufficient to the need. I'd have to worry about unexpected expenses. I'd be in trouble if I went a few weeks without a job. It sounds a lot more stressful to me.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    38. Re:Correlation != causation by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

      Capitalism is sold as a system where anyone can get ahead in life with just a good idea and a strong work ethic. But really it is an unfair lottery where a few are highly paid for the labors of others. We all know this, but we ignore it because... hey, we just might win this lottery and be one of the lucky few.

      It's not at all fair and we all know, we are just addicted to playing the work lottery because we look to the few winners and say: "that could be me".

      If you don't realize it yet. Just come up with your good idea and then go get a patent on it. You'll find out that patents are for the rich and you'll need to pay the rich to get one. And in the end, it's likely they will own it and you will have nothing but more debt.

      But keep playing and supporting the idea. Because you are a gambler at heart and deep inside you like the idea of unfair division of profits if it goes to you.

    39. Re:Correlation != causation by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Doesn't that rather depend how you got it?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    40. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The more your paid the less work you do. You think you do more work because you feel your more important because your paid more. Realistically your an entitled Bitc...

  2. Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every time he tackles a new problem it turns out to be harder than he thought during his campaign. We stand with you though, Mr President! #MAGA

    1. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He probably thought, "If a black man can do this job, how hard can this job be?"

    2. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Probably, and then he reveals that NO ONE knew healthcare could be so hard or that actually being a president is a time suck.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    3. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      To be fair, healthcare isn't that hard. What's difficult is making the structure of our healthcare work, but basically every other country has the same care for around half the price.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    4. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Alas, the black man didn't do the job properly. Not because of his skin color or genetics, but because his experience and his goal is destruction.

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    5. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 0

      To be fair, healthcare isn't that hard. What's difficult is making the structure of our healthcare work, but basically every other country has the same care for around half the price.

      The issue with this is that the US funds most healthcare development worldwide, then either practically gives it away to or has it stolen by lesser nations. For instance, medications that go for tens of thousands of dollars per month in the US are typically around a few cents per pill in places like India - not because the companies want to sell them that cheap but because Indian companies will knock them off once the US companies have done all the R&D then sell them at the cost to themselves, without all the R&D overhead. In turn the US companies need to sell at the same low cost to such nations to make any revenue from them. What we need is a world-wide single-payer healthcare system because R&D costs are real (if you don't fund R&D you don't get new medicines, and that's all there is to it) but so are the dynamics of having to play ball in a world market. It's a particularly hard problem when the lesser nations have no wealth to contribute to the task but if look at them instead as a place with more lenient medical regulations it is a great place to test emerging treatments, so long as those tests are conducted in a manner that can translate to the developed world - in turn allowing them to shoulder some of the R&D costs.

      Another alternative might be going to war with nations which steal medicines, but that kind of defeats the purpose of healthcare in general so seeing them as guinea-pigs is a kinder approach.

    6. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Not because of his skin color or genetics, but because his experience and his goal is destruction.

      He should have told the Republicans to take a hike and done single-payer for healthcare instead.

    7. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      This is bullshit. Every other country just realizes that the amount of money that drug companies spend with their multi-million dollar ad spots and high paid executives and huge profits is not in line with their needs to take care of their citizens. If America wants to keep paying for it then fine, but don't get tricked into believing that there won't be cures for anything without all that money floating around.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    8. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the structure is, ummm, a tiny bit suboptimal?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    9. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      But if he'd done that they'd have called him a lefty.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    10. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      But if he'd done that they'd have called him a lefty.

      What does Obama being left-handed have to do with healthcare?

    11. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by king+neckbeard · · Score: 2

      Okay, let's say that's true. I'm okay with NOT subsidizing the rest of the world's research, so let's just move to a single payer system like a civilized nation. There are plenty of issues. We could certainly improve the FDA approval process, and work on global testing standards so we can distribute that cost as well, at least to economically similar countries. We can pour money into more advanced modeling to reduce the labor costs involved. There are a hundred things we could do to improve medicine globally and domestically.

      However, none of those factors are in any way a halfway decent argument for not having Medicare-for-All. Furthermore, private R&D expenditures are only half what is spend on consumer pharmaceutical advertising, which other countries generally don't allow. Big Pharma in the US are crooks, and that's the main reason why it's hard for us to get decent healthcare.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    12. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      A lefty is a cormanust. You're thinking of caggies.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      A lefty is a cormanust.

      Obama took a page out of the Clinton playbook, co-opted the Republican agenda (healthcare, bin Laden, tax cuts), and is too right-of-center to keep the progressive/liberal/communist wings happy. Even if he embraced single-payer for healthcare, he still wouldn't be left-of-center.

    14. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Oh, because nobody accused of that for passing Richard Nixon's healthcare plan. He's going to get called a lefty, even if he spent eight years fellating Milton Friedman's corpse, so he might as well do something useful.

      --
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    15. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Certainly not by yoorpan standards, no. From that PoV the US has a right-of-centre party and a very-right-of-centre party.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    16. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      This.

      The poster-boy for greed is Bill Gates, who has more money than God.

      Gates has so much that he can't GIVE it away before he dies.

      The reason he's wealthy is that he's smart.

      The reason he's obscenely rich is because he charged too goddam much.

      Big Pharma is an umbrella name for "shareholders," which is another way of saying, "We the People."

      We let them charge so much for the same reason we cheered Microsoft on: We want our stocks to produce asymptotic wealth in a nanosecond.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    17. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 0

      This is bullshit. Every other country just realizes that the amount of money that drug companies spend with their multi-million dollar ad spots and high paid executives and huge profits is not in line with their needs to take care of their citizens. If America wants to keep paying for it then fine, but don't get tricked into believing that there won't be cures for anything without all that money floating around.

      Actually, they just don't do their own R&D.

    18. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      Kindly point to a first world country that has zero medical research. More often than not, single buyer countries won't use a new product issued by an American drug company (if there is truly such a thing) because there are no significant improvements over generic drugs already available. How many silicone boobs or quit smoking solutions does a country need?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    19. Re:Trump Seems A Bit Streesed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many silicone boobs or quit smoking solutions does a country need?

      155 million women, so... 300 million silicone boobs? Approximately. Some women might like three, so it could be a little higher.

  3. Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    More money = less stress.

    You think Marissa Mayer was stressed that Yahoo was sinking, and everything she did made it worse? No, she was going to make hundreds of millions regardless of how she did.

    1. Re:Duh by TheSunborn · · Score: 1

      She did not make it worse. She sold it for 6 billions $ more then it was worth when she took it.

      (If we talk value of yahoo, excluding the Alibaba stocks, which she had nothing to do with).

    2. Re: Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You think her changes made it more valuable? All the value was in foreign stock that she had no part of.

    3. Re: Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yahoo was a company on the brink of doom. She only made it worse.

  4. Very, very old news. by queazocotal · · Score: 5, Interesting

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... (began in 1967)
    "The studies, named after the Whitehall area of London and led by Michael Marmot, found a strong association between grade levels of civil servant employment and mortality rates from a range of causes: the lower the grade, the higher the mortality rate. Men in the lowest grade (messengers, doorkeepers, etc.) had a mortality rate three times higher than that of men in the highest grade (administrators). This effect has since been observed in other studies and named the "status syndrome".[3]"

    1. Re:Very, very old news. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Shit flows downhill."

      Yep. Truly old news.

  5. Troll much? by Nova+Express · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Getting a start on the clickbait lying right with the first sentence, I see:

    "Work under capitalism is a brutal psychological gauntlet -- low pay, long hours, and little to no safety net."

    Compared to what? And when? Lord knows no one under feudalism, mercantilism, socialism or communism ever worked "long hours for low pay."

    Life in a state of nature is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short. Capitalism, and the technological progress it helped engender, is the system that helped lift those out of the poverty that previously plagued all but a tiny hereditary elite since time immemorial until a period just two centuries ago.

    If you want to see what life is like without capitalism, trying looking at Venezuela, where they're rioting because socialism can't provide enough food for them to eat.

    But enough. This is just another example of Slashdot leftwing clickbait, because evidently covering actual News For Nerds is evidently too boring compared to launching yet another left vs. right flamewar.

    Is msmash the designated leftwing agitprop admin now?

    --
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    http://www.lawrenceperson.com/

    1. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the original sentence was:
      Work under capitalism in the 19th Century...

    2. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Capitalism today is broken. Capitalism has lead us down a path of unbridled consumption that rather than fix or upgrade things, we throw them out and buy new things. The attitude towards capitalism is predictable. It's broken, so let's just get rid of it for something new and shiny.

      The people who are pro-capitalism though, regard the bugs in capitalism as features. And until that changes, capitalism will just get worse, and the people calling for its replacement will become more justified in their point of view.

      We need to start regarding the bugs, as actual bugs, and fix them, if we want capitalism to continue in one form or another, because at some point, enough people will feel so disenfranchised from capitalism that they will successfully overthrow it.

    3. Re:Troll much? by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Work under capitalism is a brutal psychological gauntlet -- low pay, long hours, and little to no safety net."

      Compared to what?

      Why does it need comparison? Is it not a brutal psychological gauntlet with increasingly lower pay, long hours and little to no safety net? The minimum wage isn't increasing as the value of money decreases or as productivity increases. Office working hours were previously a total of 8 hours where now it's 9 hours. Our social safety nets are really lacking.

      Just because brutality is par for course doesn't make it any less brutal.

      This is just another example of Slashdot leftwing clickbait, because evidently covering actual News For Nerds is evidently too boring compared to launching yet another left vs. right flamewar.

      How is this a partisan issue? Are people on one side of the political spectrum not working at all or something? We're in this together, bro.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    4. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Troll very much. Yeah, there was nothing inherently political in the post that I saw. Nova made it political.

    5. Re:Troll much? by Artem+S.+Tashkinov · · Score: 2

      If you want to see what life is like without capitalism, trying looking at Venezuela, where they're rioting because socialism can't provide enough food for them to eat.

      Socialism is the least of their problems. And capitalism without regulation and elements of socialism is doomed.

    6. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those who fail at capitalism tend to blame capitalism for everything. It is natural enough.

      Unfortunately, those who were born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and by all counts succeed at capitalism, often fall into a victim mentality due to petty envy for those who have succeeded even better.

      So many Americans have no idea what it is like to need to hunt for clean water each day; a need that motivates half of humanity (and when they water they find isn't so clean, another family member dies of a horrible disease). Americans not only have clean water *on tap* for God's sake, they work in an air-conditioned building and sleep on a bed; and complain that capitalism is evil because they don't live in a luxurious house and can't retire at 30.

      Whiny ingrates.

    7. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You beat me to it. Well said.

    8. Re:Troll much? by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Long" and "lower" are always only meaningfull when compared to something. That's their definition.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re: Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True Capitalism as in opposition to the True Scotchman fallacy is about freedom. Free entry to the market allows any one to be her own boss and an opportunity to fortunes.

      My most benevolent interpretation of the passage about failure of Capitalism simply reads that the relative freedom of the markets has failed to provide both easy living and equal outcome.

    10. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And pure socialism dooms itself with no assistance all.

    11. Re: Troll much? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The idea and theory of Capitalism didn't take huge multinational corporations into account that basically hold governments hostage these days.

      Free entry to the market? Where? Name a business where there isn't already a WalMart, a Google, a Kraft Foods or another corporation that pretty much not only dictates how and if you can actually exist in that market, more and more they also dictate the relevant legal environment.

      This has nothing to do with capitalism anymore. That system is broken.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:Troll much? by DogDude · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you want to see what life is like without capitalism, trying looking at Venezuela [battleswarmblog.com], where they're rioting because socialism can't provide enough food for them to eat.

      Such incredible bullshit. There are plenty of countries (such as in northern Europe and Scandinavia) where people work less, have have a better quality of life because capitalism is tempered. Fuck you and your lying Fox News bullshit.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    13. Re: Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalism or any rational human being doesn't need regulation as if there would be a proper amount of stealing, murder or fraud. Or as if there would be too much success, happinaamari or profit that needs to be capped or as if profits are made in expence of others.

      The first category requires punishment, not regulation and the latter requires freedom.

    14. Re: Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finnish auto spelling correction is awesome: happiness becomes oxygen-mask.

    15. Re:Troll much? by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, "We're in this together" means we share something in common. In this particular case, people in the US are part of a single capitalism based economic system regardless of their own political affiliation or beliefs.

      If you are so blind that you cannot see that then you need to take a break from politics because your viewpoint has become so heavily distorted that it has no bearing on reality.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    16. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That isn't "capitalism," that is "consumerism." People spend rather than mend because they are stupid, not because the means of production is privately owned. Those same people would have the same bad habits under any other system (unless they were so poor that replacing things wasn't an option, of course, but that logic applies just as well under capitalism, too).

      Capitalism is an economic model in which private citizens can own businesses. That's it. Everything you are talking about is just human pettiness, which thrives under any system.

    17. Re:Troll much? by ilguido · · Score: 1

      If you want to see what life is like without capitalism, trying looking at Venezuela, where they're rioting because socialism can't provide enough food for them to eat.

      One of the biggest and most overlooked problems with capitalism is that first you need the capitals, then you can get it. You know, Somalia has free market, zero taxation, so you may think it is some kind of capitalist heaven. It is not. Like India, or most of the world for that matter, where you have all the bases of the capitalist system, but there's a lack of capitals and so widespread poverty, precarious health, starvation.

      It doesn't matter if Venezuela is socialist or not, because now Venezuela is like Saudi Arabia in ten years or so: a country without resources.

    18. Re:Troll much? by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      Like I said, it's a dog whistle. Don't trust anybody who uses the phrase.

      He is telegraphing that he intends to make his problem, yours, whether you like it or not. Keep an eye on the bastard, from then on. Never put his in a responsible position.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    19. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you want to see capitalism in full swing, look to Somalia.

      Oh, that's not fair? Neither is using Venezuela as your example. Look at Sweden - high life expectancy, high life enjoyment.

    20. Re:Troll much? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Ingrates built society. The words "fuck this shit" are responsible for everything we have today. Or, as George Bernard Shaw puts it "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    21. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never put his in a responsible position.

      We'll go ahead and assume you aren't in one either.

    22. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This! So much this! HornWumpus "gets it" and "Gravis Zero" needs some history lessons.
      captcha: refuses ;-)

    23. Re:Troll much? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      An absolutely critical aspect of capitalism is that companies should be allowed to fail, and it should be accepted as part of a healthy economy. When one company fails, a few more spring up in place. This puts a natural cap on the amount of profit any company can siphon out of the economy and hand to shareholders. Capitalism is failing because governments are protecting companies and now many have gotten too big to fail.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    24. Re: Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prostitution?

    25. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like I said, it's a dog whistle. Don't trust anybody who uses the phrase.

      He is telegraphing that he intends to make his problem, yours, whether you like it or not. Keep an eye on the bastard, from then on. Never put his in a responsible position.

      Lol, he's just trying to let you know that you and him belong to the same system and that it's success or failure would most likely mean yours and his as well.

      How do you not understand the phrase?

    26. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's the stereotypical moron. Until the problems literally beat down his door and destroy him, he'll pretend they don't exist. Even if it's right next door or in the street outside his house. Even if his house is literally surrounded by it, it won't matter. Regardless... Once he's been destroyed by the problems the rest of us already knew existed... He'll pretend it's a sudden issue of the highest priority that can't be ignored regardless of what else is going on at that point.

    27. Re:Troll much? by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      He is telegraphing that he intends to make his problem, yours, whether you like it or not.

      What you are inferring is closer to paranoia than a logical conclusion. I'm telling you that the problems we face will be the same and not because of anything either of us has done. The point is to cause you to logically reconsider your position in regard to the situation because your initial assessment may be flawed.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    28. Re: Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Monopolies and cartels are the Achilles heel of capitalism. This is well known. Capitalism does not work without uncaptured government regulation to prevent this. You complain about capitalism not working perfectly...do you have something better to propose? Certainly looking at history, capitalism has been the best thing so far for us ordinary peons.

    29. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Newsflash: Northern Europe is still capitalist. "Capitalism" isn't tempered - most things are still privately owned and individuals own capital; "laissez-faire" policies are. Social safety nets exist. All of that is still compatible with capitalism. Take your bullshit elsewhere.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    30. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Sweden is capitalist. Individuals can own capital. See this article for more details.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    31. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF? Sweden not capitalist? When did the state take ownership of the means of production?

    32. Re: Troll much? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      We had a separation of church and state a while ago. I think it's time we get a separation of commerce and state. That would be a good start.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    33. Re: Troll much? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You run for Igor, or you won't run much longer, little Miss.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    34. Re:Troll much? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I get clean water on tap because it's supplied by the government. Seriously. Capitalism has very little to do with it.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    35. Re:Troll much? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Sweden is an excellent example of the misuse of "socialism". Sweden's economy is capitalist, not socialist. Sweden gets called "socialist" a lot because they take care of each other.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    36. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It's very aggravating.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    37. Re:Troll much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha, I see someone else has trotted out Venezuela as an example of socialism without knowing even half the story. You should ask actual Venezuelans about it instead of believing the clickbait propaganda. It's well known now that the multinational corporations intentionally shutting down food production is the reason for food shortages. Nevertheless, capitalism is directly to blame for the state of things in Venezuela, because the US just can't let a socialist state "fail" on it's own; it has to throw trillions of YOUR tax dollars at it to ensure it does, and thus make the "socialism always fails" memes remain true.

      It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy, you should read into that kid.

  6. Old Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This has been shown in studies for many years now and is pretty well beyond questioning.

    The biggest factor is probably the 'control' aspect. In testing with mice, if two mice are in a cage that electrocutes them until they perform some task they are equally stressed. If one mouse is assigned to be the boss, such that the boss' actions shuts off the electricity for both of them, with the other mouse having no control......... the boss' stress drops, the other mouse's stress shoots up.

    So yeah, that dumbass boss that never listens to your ideas on how to improve things is causing you stress.

  7. Dumbass first line by operagost · · Score: 0, Troll

    Work under capitalism is a brutal psychological gauntlet -- low pay, long hours, and little to no safety net

    Stopped reading right there. Just move to someplace like Venezuela if you want to see what happens when you deny the realities of the market.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    1. Re:Dumbass first line by operagost · · Score: 1

      Work under capitalism is a brutal psychological gauntlet -- low pay, long hours, and little to no safety net

      Stopped reading right there. Not all jobs are like that. Just move to someplace like Venezuela if you want to see what happens when you deny the realities of the market.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  8. Depends on the type of Boss by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Responsible Owners of companies and high level executives are burdened with the fact that they are responsible for the livelihoods of their employees. I have worked for several companies where I have personally seen a manager or owner stress to the point of depression when facing the task of laying off an employee.

    Contrary to what people think, most managers are good people and have the back of their employees.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re: Depends on the type of Boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We found the shill everyone. What the bosses really stress about is whether or not they have a good enough reason not to lose when they get sued.

    2. Re: Depends on the type of Boss by sycodon · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Fuck you asshole.

      You may be a dipshit employee that every employer regrets hiring and can't wait for a reason to ditch, but most of the rest of us aren't.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    3. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by king+neckbeard · · Score: 2

      Data doesn't seem to support that. Perhaps that is mostly true for small businesses, but not in businesses large enough to have visits from corporate.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    4. Re: Depends on the type of Boss by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Now THERE is the anti-social psychopath.

    5. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 0

      I have personally seen a manager or owner stress to the point of depression when facing the task of laying off an employee.

      Sounds like he wasn't the right person for the job. Not everyone should be a manager.

      Contrary to what people think, most managers are good people and have the back of their employees.

      "Good people" sometimes make the worst managers. You have to be prepared to make hard decisions. I worked for a boss that dithered in making layoffs, while the company lost money and ended up laying off even more than originally needed.

    6. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by lazarus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You've made the mistake of presenting an argument that puts people with wealth or power in a positive light on Slashdot. Prepare for immolation. You're right of course, and I've met and worked for people like that myself. But being right will not save you from what's coming...

      --
      I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
    7. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Responsible Owners of companies and high level executives are burdened with the fact that they are responsible for the livelihoods of their employees. I have worked for several companies where I have personally seen a manager or owner stress to the point of depression when facing the task of laying off an employee.

      Contrary to what people think, most managers are good people and have the back of their employees.

      I'm sorry, but all 100 percent of all bosses are greedy a-holes who care nothing about anyone but themselves, and all of their employees are over worked and over stressed slaves who are all wonderful people at heart and all smarter than the boss. And nobody working in a capitalist society enjoys their job or their life.

    8. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      More importantly, the people a few /.ers personally know do not constitute adequate data to make broad generalizations.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    9. Re: Depends on the type of Boss by avandesande · · Score: 4, Informative

      I was a manager once and had to lay off people, it was the worst experience I have ever had at work. I ended up quitting management because of it.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    10. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure that's true of RESPONSIBLE ones. What percentage of all owners and high level executives is that exactly? 1%? Probably close to it.

    11. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's the matter, Soros didn't pay you for the last Antifa Riot?

    12. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by chipschap · · Score: 1

      I have personally seen a manager or owner stress to the point of depression when facing the task of laying off an employee.

      Sounds like he wasn't the right person for the job. Not everyone should be a manager.

      On the contrary I think this /was/ the right person for the job, namely, someone who actually cared about the well-being of the staff and regretted causing hurt and harm.

      I know sometimes layoffs are necessary to keep a company afloat and save all the rest of the jobs, but being unmoved about it is no merit as a manager.

    13. Re: Depends on the type of Boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Same AC here. I am a manager actually but I don't manage people any more directly.
        I am frequently assigned to save projects and products that someone led into a swamp and bring them back to life. I am asked to find the root cause of the problem and fix it, but rarely I can get a personnel manager to fire an incompetent person that deserves it and has consistently performed poorly. Yet they have no regrets about firing exemplary but overworked employees who made a single mistake in a year. Rather than firing incompetent idiots they just go and advertise them to some other manager. Managers hate to admit that they made a mistake in the first place hiring that person and keeping them for so long, because if they admitted that, they fear their head is on the chopping block. That happens in a faceless corporations.
      In mom and pop operations, bosses care about workers, most of the time.

    14. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is why we need a massive central government to fix these wrongs. Those bureaucrats in Washington will care more than those greedy business owners. Look how much the bureaucrats cared in the USSR!

    15. Re: Depends on the type of Boss by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      It's hard to fire someone for consistently mediocre performance, but easy to fire someone for big mistakes.
      Big corporations attract and keep the mediocre performers for decades, and you need an invasive review process to ferret them out. (I suspect that is the intent of Google and Facebook's review process)

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    16. Re: Depends on the type of Boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correction: most managers in small businesses.

      Corporations? I doubt it. Too many ambitious people result in a zero sum game.

    17. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

      Ha. You think that the person laying off someone has MORE stress than the one who is laid off. Ha.

      Just like a manager to make it all about them.

    18. Re:Depends on the type of Boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Responsible Owners of companies and high level executives are burdened with the fact that they are responsible for the livelihoods of their employees. I have worked for several companies where I have personally seen a manager or owner stress to the point of depression when facing the task of laying off an employee.

      Contrary to what people think, most managers are good people and have the back of their employees.

      However, this does not describe the upper-middle management boss, who does not directly fire anyone, but instead decides that Division X needs to git rid of 20% of its staff, and delegates the firing to his underlings. Sure, perhaps some stress, but it's easily masked by "it's not personal, its business"

  9. Righto by Artem+S.+Tashkinov · · Score: 2

    Of course it's all BS and it's always been. You get fired - you usually get nothing and then break your neck trying to find a new job. Oh, and your wife may divorce you in a process 'cause you've become insolvent.

    Guys who are upper in the corporate hierarchy enjoy golden parachutes and resumes which say that they've got experience in managing other people, so they move to other management positions in other companies where they continue to manage while those at the lowest rank get all the flak for the company's failures or misfortunes and get fired whenever the quarterly goals are not met.

    And don't get me started on their salaries and benefits.

    1. Re:Righto by StikyPad · · Score: 2

      Get started??? Your rant on salaries and benefits was due last Friday!

  10. That's the reward for busting your ass! by LS1+Brains · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seriously. I've worked INCREDIBLY hard, and voluntarily submitted myself to WAY more stress than my peers through my earlier years. My friends thought I was nuts. But where are they now compared to where I am? You can likely figure that out on your own. The stress should be your driving force to move up. You're constantly presented with challenges that you need to accept in order to get to where want to be. What's that old saying? Ain't nothing in life free. I continue to work very hard, although now I work on different and more broad projects than those under my direction. My stress level is indeed lower than it was in past years, my salary is much higher, my debt to income is very low, and my retirement accounts are looking pretty nice. I worked really hard to get here, and I make no apologies for those who merely "come to work and do their job." You have to go above and beyond, you have to look forward and look upward in order to succeed. If your idea of a promotion is doing the minimum to not get fired long enough to "deserve" a raise, you will be stuck forever as one of the people bitching about "those rich people." Money opportunities are astoundingly abundant in America (and many other countries). But you have to put forth the effort to go out there and get it. I'm now, and have been for quite a while, at the point in my life where I have the flexibility to relax more. I built my home closer to work, both are in an area where I'm not wasting my time in traffic or spending a fortune to merely exist. I'm 15 minutes door to door and earned the ability to take time off to be with my family pretty much any time I wish. That is worth more than money at this point in my life, and I built that by not partying my ass off and blowing off work during my 20's. Life is what you make it. If you make it about doing nothing, you'll have nothing. If you make it about setting and achieving goals, you'll have success. It's a simple concept that has always and will always work. Further, if you read this and made a mental excuse for my success, you just answered every question about not being where you "deserve" to be.

    1. Re:That's the reward for busting your ass! by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      ... but enough about your Amway franchise!

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:That's the reward for busting your ass! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      #survivorshipbias

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    3. Re:That's the reward for busting your ass! by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      And losers usually blame others for their problems.

      Tell me, how many people with nasty personalities, who refuse to work, start from poverty and become rich? By what mechanism would that work?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    4. Re:That's the reward for busting your ass! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      I know a few people with nasty personalities who have started from poverty and become rich, but none who refuse to work. Refusal to work would make it impossible to gain wealth through work, so that's just a red herring, suggesting that those who have not become rich have failed to do so because they refuse to work.

      I know many more people without nasty personalities who work hard and have remained poor. Doing everything right is not even close to a guarantee of success - it only gets you a slim chance of success.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    5. Re:That's the reward for busting your ass! by LunaticTippy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You seem pretty delusional. I'm in the same situation as you, and I worked very hard too, but I have the insight that without a great deal of luck and timing that are completely outside my control I would have nothing.

      I am not sure why certain people are eager to blame individuals for societal problems. It is really obvious to me that things are very tough if you are born in the wrong place, or to the wrong parents, or in the wrong time. I have a lot of sympathy and understanding to those who struggle on this beautiful planet. You seem really condescending and smug in your good fortune. In fiction you'd be on the verge of catastrophe.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    6. Re:That's the reward for busting your ass! by LS1+Brains · · Score: 1

      Delusional, huh? Not quite

      I was born into a pretty upper middle class family, and understood what earned luxuries were. Small business ownership, busted gender barriers and writing your own ticket, splitting your life between a beachfront home and the yacht, etc. Then I lost my father very young at under 5yo. Saw my mother pick up the pieces and move forward, but never actually recovering. She made it work but was always without a huge part of her being at her side. Through this I learned many things, including love, sacrifice, tenacity, drive, and sheer will power. Less than 7 years later I lose my mom, and go to live with unloving "family" who ultimately decide within three years they needn't be bothered with the responsibility but would be plenty happy to keep collecting the check. So yes, I was out on the streets while my "guardians" cashed Soc.Sec. checks. I started working at 13, finished high school and graduated, put a roof over my own head, and learned quite succinctly the reality of not merely accepting that which is given. No, I didn't rely on the government for assistance either.

      If there was one lesson I could share with the masses, it is exactly this - DO NOT merely accept what is handed to you. You will never rise to your potential with that mindset. You can only achieve what YOU push YOURSELF to achieve.

      So am I smug? Perhaps I am. But do I blame people for whatever situation they're in? Sometimes, but not as often as you might imagine. Ignorance is not something to blame someone for, so I do my best to share this simple message. But, If you make bad choices and stick with them, well that's on you. It's such an important lesson to learn, no matter how you learn it, to fail and fail fast. You don't learn from success. You learn from screwing up. Embrace it, learn from it, and build upon it.

      To say in some fiction I'd be on the verge of catastrophe points to the blinders people choose to put on themselves to avoid dealing with the harsh truths. It's often uncomfortable and scary to put ourselves in a position to jump out of the situation we're in. Learning to proactively CHOOSE to risk things we can afford to risk is a lesson not often taught.

    7. Re:That's the reward for busting your ass! by LunaticTippy · · Score: 2

      Good lord, you even have a victim delusion! For every smug person like yourself there are literally a million people who have worked harder than you, suffered more than you, lost more than you, and they are penniless with dim prospects for advancement. Do you seriously think you'd be set for life if you'd been born in wartime somalia or present day kentucky to drug addicted parents? Our society makes things tougher than they need to be, take a glance at northern europe and how the middle class prospers there. It doesn't hurt us to help the less fortunate. It makes society stronger and safer.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    8. Re:That's the reward for busting your ass! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      This is a clear case of survivor bias. You worked hard, that's obvious, but lots of people start from conditions as bad as yours, work as hard as you did, and fail. Your attitude didn't save you. You either were unusually good at making good choices, or you got lucky, or both.

      I'm not trying to tear you down here. You obviously worked hard and accomplished a lot, and you can be proud of that. What I'm saying is that your story is not applicable to most people.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    9. Re:That's the reward for busting your ass! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was born into a multi-millionaire family, and have never worked a day in my life. I simply own businesses that own businesses. There is no amount of work you can do in your lifetime to ever become more wealthy than me. Ever. No matter how hard you try. I'm sorry you lost the genetic lottery, but things are this way for a reason. And they will remain that way, so that people like you remember your place. I'm glad you supplicate to my wealth little one, but you deserve no reward for it. Your reward is your family's subservience to me and my family.

      Keep making me richer little man, and I'll keep feeding you the crumbs of the meals you put on my table :)

  11. Science sez... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Well if one study shows those results, then it must true everywhere! Science sez so!. That's how Science works.

  12. Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More than a few of us have seen the garbage startup boss who waddles in hungover around noon to wax heroic on his drunken exploits in the name of "schmoozing" and "networking."

    Amazingly, there are so many tech-pragmatists who fail to make the connection between the Mar-A-Lago Management techniques of Startup World, and that Donald J. Trump is exactly such a nobody who has been artificially bolstered.

    1. Re:Yes by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I someone has to get drunk with you to trust you, you put on your big boy pants and get drunk with them. Duh.

      But don't confuse that with just getting drunk for it's own sake.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I someone has to get drunk with you to trust you, you put on your big boy pants and get drunk with them. Duh.

      But don't confuse that with just getting drunk for it's own sake.

      And always remember, if someone has to be careful not to drink too much it's a sure sign they're not to be trusted when they do.

    3. Re:Yes by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      For quite a few people, drinking is extremely dangerous. The easiest way to deal with serious alcoholism is to not drink.

      Anyone who wants me to get drunk is neither my friend nor my ally, but someone who wants to sacrifice my well-being for their own purposes.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    4. Re:Yes by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Being an alchi puts you at a huge disadvantage when dealing with someone who doesn't trust anyone who doesn't drink. But what are you going to do about that? Best bet is have someone else deal with that client.

      Basically the same as dealing with thumper, send in another, to humor him.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  13. I know mine is... by bobbied · · Score: 3, Interesting

    But she deals with a bunch of garbage that I don't have to care about because she insolates me from it so I can get my work done. I see some of the E-mails about the issues she's keeping off my plate and I shudder to think what my life would be like if she didn't do what she does. She takes the stress so I don't have to and I owe her both my loyalty and thanks.

    But I can assure you, my current manager isn't typical.... No sir. In my 25 years of having all sorts of managers, she's in the top 5% and I will be sad when she retires. My previous manager was totally opposite, visited his scorn for failure to meet real and imagined (by him) requirements when he demanded (regardless of if they'd been communicated or not). I'm sure he was stressed too, given all his direct and indirect reports generally didn't care one bit about keeping him out of trouble given the likelihood of getting your head handed to you when you raised an issue. He was a moron of a manager and I am lucky I escaped with my self respect from that place. I find this kind of manager much more common....

    So, Yes, my managers ARE more stressed than I am.... I'm guessing the good managers are LESS stressed though than the ones who should have never taken the job in the first place.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re:I know mine is... by gander666 · · Score: 1

      Ditto here. I have been a manager, and I was one of those who took on the task of shielding my team from the bullshit, and managing the politics.

      I hated it, and it nearly killed me (I have the heart attack and the stent + brutal daily medications to remind me of how shitty that life was.) Now, I am an individual contributor (a contractor actually), and my current boss does an AMAZING job of insulating me from the bullshit. I am very grateful.

      --
      Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
    2. Re:I know mine is... by g01d4 · · Score: 1

      Bottom tier managers are going to face more stress and its consequences than those above them. Competence, both your own and that of your manager is going to contribute to stress no matter what position you're in. Finally, there's stress regarding job performance and stress centered on reliance on a job in general. Failing or incompetent managers are let go less often than their reports. I suspect the stress a CEO of a large company might face over poor company performance and negative publicity, while great, is not the same as the stress of a typical worker facing a lay off - particularly with respect to negative health benefits.

  14. Socialism Day at slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's with these articles. First a blatant plug for UBI, now a bogus criticism of capitalism. Is msmash trying to drive off the few readers /. still has?

  15. Less debt == less stress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Life is probably much less stressful the less financial worries you have.

  16. Science Says??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One study does not constitute a scientific result.

  17. It's different at the top than it was by ErichTheRed · · Score: 2

    That's strange, because times have changed for anyone outside the very senior executive levels of a company. Previously, promotion into middle or upper management was like being admitted into an exclusive club, where everything was basically taken care of for you and you were just the public face of your organization. You had a high salary, a whole staff to manage every aspect of your life, etc. Now, flatter organizations push a lot of things onto lower numbers of managers that they wouldn't have to deal with in the past.

    I think it's the flatter organizations that cause more stress...the managers are responsible for more than they used to be, and the speed/pace of business has wound up to levels that are beyond healthy.

    1. Re:It's different at the top than it was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being a manager is more stress than I've ever had. We're not at all flat though. I essentially have to do much of my old job, plus the management part, plus endless meetings. The hours are too long and it isn't sustainable. Now if there were employees working for me who could do the job well and extra employees so that when more work gets piled on I can spread it around, then it would be a lot better. Instead there are new employees trying to figure out complex and badly designed things that the original authors never bothered to document, half of them need mentoring, the deadlines coming from above that are ridiculous, plus drama.

  18. Straw man argument by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Work under capitalism is a brutal psychological gauntlet -- low pay, long hours, and little to no safety net.

    Average wages in the US are among the highest in the world. "Brutal psychological gauntlet"? As opposed to what? The rainbows and daisies that come from living under a dictator?

    Capitalism does not imply the lack of a safety net either. There is nothing about capitalism that prevents a safety net from being put in place.

    But bosses usually expect you to take some solace in the fact that you're not doing their (supposedly more difficult) job, even if they make more money.

    Which bosses? "Usually"? This is a straw man argument. Some managers are more stressed than those who report to them. Sometimes it's the other way around. Furthermore stress is not an easily quantifiable state so comparisons of any sort are fraught.

    'Workers in lower status jobs tend to have more stressful working conditions -- they have lower pay, poorer pension arrangements, less control over their work, and report more unsupportive colleagues and managers

    In other news water is wet.

    1. Re:Straw man argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The most accurate definition of capitalism: Making money with the work of others.

      Take note that the only ones disagreing with this definition are the capitalists themselves, venture or otherwise.

    2. Re:Straw man argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not the definition of capitalism but it is a symptom. Capitalism, at its core, is about how a "game with few rules" results in a certain type of outcome. I personally won't call it the "best" outcome, because that is subjective.

      That said, when individuals play the game they have many (unlimited) choices. In capitalism, when one person realizes he can utilize the (willing) labor of another to generate more for himself then everyone wins. The laborer gets the wage he agreed to, the employer gets more money and more output is produced for some third party. Three people "win". Is the laborer getting screwed? Not directly. He can theoretically directly produce something himself, but he chose not to for some "real" reason. Those real reasons can be unlimited but generally pertain to knowledge, ideas, time, effort, and capital investment that is not necessary when one is an employee vs. employer/self-employed.

      At the most basic example - should a Master carpenter pay the journeyman carpenter the full "profit" the journeyman produces? Of course not, otherwise there would be no point in taking on the journeyman. Plus, the journeyman is happy to not be paid the full profit because he realizes he can't go do the same stuff as the master without more training, tools, and trusted clients. The journeyman could start out on his own but he would struggle for business, be more inefficient, have large initial capital outlays for tools, must learn with no mentor - likely resulting in costly mistakes that upset clients. The result is a journeyman that probably still makes less money, pissed off clients, inefficient duplicate purchase of tools and no win for the master. Lose, Lose, Lose. Also remember, the journeyman could eventually be the master... and when he is he can make back all the "dues" he paid anyway. so Lose again if we are operating under a system where "employment" is evil because profits aren't split equally with *time* (which is not the only component of value).

      The key though is that human labor could just as easily be replaced with a machine in capitalism. Then no need to "exploit" humans. Ironically this is currently being touted as the "worst" part of capitalism... that "jobs" will "soon" be eliminated.

      So what is it. Are jobs exploitation or are jobs good?

    3. Re:Straw man argument by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      The problem with capitalism is that it should pay people with the hardest jobs more. But it doesn't, it pays people who are the highest up the latter. This never really did make sense to me. While a person up the ladder may have a more difficult job, by this article my suspicions are true and it is not necessarily the case. I also suspect things really get easier as you move up. I mean I guess my VP has to meet potential customers for dinner and discuss business, or maybe a round of golf, but that's not really working. That is leisure even if you are talking about work.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    4. Re:Straw man argument by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      That's a nice Kafkatrap you've constructed there.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
  19. Details by jon3k · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People lower on the ladder make less money. Less money means more stress.

    1. Re:Details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, so it is not "Mo Money, Mo problems?"

      Who'd have thunk it.

  20. Peter Principle? by Tablizer · · Score: 2

    There could be some personality filtering going on: those who can accept heavier pressure are more likely to move up into management.

    It's more or less the Peter Principle: you raise up until you hit your pressure limit.

    My wife rejected a management position that paid more than her current position because it was more stressful. She used to do that kind of work so she knows what's involved. She prefers to save some energy for family and friends. Because we have 2 white-collar incomes, we don't have significant financial pressures (knock on wood). Time is a scarcer resource than money for us.

    For example, when in management, she had to deal with problem employees, sometimes stay late to resolve logjams, get urgent vendor/shipment-related calls on the weekend, etc. Her non-management job has a fairly narrow role such that she's not nearly as often thrashed around by miscellaneous issues popping up.

    You kind of have to have "no life" to be a manager in most orgs, or the work-world ends up being your life, such as an enjoyment in shmoozing with customers, etc.

    1. Re:Peter Principle? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Probably more the Dilbert principle.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    2. Re:Peter Principle? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Personally, I took a look at my manager's schedule and it reaffirmed my intention to never be in management.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  21. Pensions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obviously not a US statistic if pensions are mentioned. Here in the States, we all get to suffer in our retirement equally based on how much we little we invested when we were just starting out.

  22. Let's see. . . . by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

    . . . .I'm a manager, and I'm stressed as all hell. We've got 2 of 5 slots open, no decrease in workload, and I haven't even seen a candidate resume in months. Our contract is up for re-compete, and we're getting continuous 30-day extensions. Several of my reports are "problem children", who have been foisted off on me for my demonstrated ability to not throttle the lazy bastards and take all the arguments out of customer earshot, as well as being the overall team troubleshooter.

    I'm not getting paid enough for this shit, and regret ever agreeing to stepping up to manglement. . . . oh, and I'm the junior manager onsite. . ..

    1. Re:Let's see. . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have open positions?? Fill them fast or you'll lose them...

      I've never actually had to deal with "problem children" as everyone around here is relatively decent. That must be a huge contributor to stress.

    2. Re:Let's see. . . . by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      You work for the same company I do!

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    3. Re:Let's see. . . . by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Filling positions can be hard. If you're doing generic work that almost everyone does then it's not bad as the talent pool is huge. For the less common jobs it's painful. Ie, C programmer with X+ years, experience in embedded systems and low level programming, experience in a team (too many self taught EE people that fail this), domain knowledge, and we actually will ask you some basic programming questions. Not suprisingly there isn't a line of people passing the filters.

      Oh yes, problem children. Ugh, had those. Form those who just don't want to listen, who have to be personally reminded before each and every regularly scheduled meeting, those with 20 years experience still making novice coding mistakes, etc.

  23. Radical Leftism Day at Slashdot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Welcome to Far Left Radicalism Celebration Day at Slashdot! Where facts be damned; we're going to blame all of the world's ills on freedom, democracy, and capitalism!

    This is an exciting time of year for the far left. Popular messianic leftists are often born in the May-August months: Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, and other benevolent leaders of the revolution!

    Together we must FIGHT the evil forces of Capitalism, Individual Freedom, and Democracy! Together we can all ensure a long life living in blissful poverty for the masses, with free ultra-basic healthcare when you can get it, highly sought-after food rations, and the world's most advanced 3rd grade education!

  24. So correlation proves no causation???? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I rather think that the authors know what correlation means far better than some blowhard idiot spouting a catchphrase of the ignoranti when faced with evidence they'd rather not consider does.

    Do you think that the phrase somehow never caught anyone's attention before you brought it up?

    And do you think that just because things fall down when you let them go, this is not proof of gravity, since you "know" that just because they correlate the falling down rate being universal and consistent with letting things go unsupported this does not equal the causation being gravity?

  25. Really? by cogeek · · Score: 1

    "Work under capitalism is a brutal psychological gauntlet -- low pay, long hours, and little to no safety net."

    Why don't you ask Cold War era Eastern European citizens how work was under Communism?

    Low pay? Check.
    Long hours? Check.
    Safety net? Well maybe a plastic tarp to catch the body when quotas were not met.

    1. Re:Really? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      You pick out an example where people obviously had it harder. On the other hand, if we had just stayed with farming communities we would have had it much easier.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Really? by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 1

      Shh. Don't burst the bubble. Remember there are only 2 choices. American freedom or slavery!

  26. no matter what.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No matter what system you prefer to think might work,what has done so much damage to the planet and many of its temporary residents is corruption and self centred,self serving greed.
    And it's a problem under any system you can invent a name for..
    Too many folk live by the creed of Do as I say,not do as I do..
    Someone show me one organised group of people anywhere at any time that has not suffered the above problems..
    It can be greed for stuff or power, it's still greed and too many people always want more, no matter how much they have..
    Many people use many arguments and words to try and excuse it,many systems have been tried to curb it,none appear to have worked.
    Even in tiny small groups,there will always be at least one person who thinks they need/deserve more,wether they can show they need or "deserve" or have "earned" the right for more..
    Basically we have advanced no further than the ancient primates we still are..
    We can do this,we can do that,we have achieved much,some of it we should be proud of,but this is one problem we will probably never find a solution for..
    Individuals or some small groups can appear to control the trait of greed for a while,but never for long..

  27. Unless you are the president, that is by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    After all, the American voters are all the boss of the POTUS. I can tell you he really stresses the hell out of me.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  28. re: Work under Capitalism by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    Actually, no .... Capitalism doesn't encourage laziness or "slacking off". That's for sure. But "increasingly lower pay"? That's B.S. There's absolutely a pretty standard concept of receiving regular raises throughout the American workforce. And especially in times like we've seen in the recent past where there's really no inflation happening? Even those "cost of living adjustments" amount to raises that slightly increase your buying power.

    You can't use the "minimum wage" as the sole metric for whether people are making less money with time! In fact, I'm not sure it's much of a useful metric at all?

    Every employer/employee pay agreement in the private sector EXCEPT mandated minimum wages are decided on without government interference. Even in a union, you have a "collective" of workers who can push to receive a pay and/or benefits boost they think is fair, while the employer has to negotiate with their leadership to come to an agreement both sides can accept. In other situations, it's based on what you can "sell" your employer on as your value you bring to the table, and/or the value they perceive you bring - causing them to voluntarily give you more money, to keep you happy working for them.

    And if you want to argue about "long hours"? I grant that statistically you can probably prove that people are putting in more hours than they used to. But I'd also say you really need to look at WHY before judging it a bad thing. I know doing I.T. work myself, I definitely put in more than a "40 hour work week", but much of that is by choice. Because actually, I take pride in what I do and I'm not happy leaving a project unfinished if I know I can get it up and running a little bit faster by poking at it a bit after hours in the evening or over a weekend. That doesn't mean someone is DEMANDING I put that time in, and it doesn't mean I'm missing out on social events or other things I *want* to do in my personal time. I'm simply choosing to do a bit here and there when I have nothing better to do.

  29. Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

    How many lower-level workers are willing to spend the up-front costs and take the risks associated with moving up? I'll tell you how many -- all the ones that moved up, and none of the ones that didn't.

    I've got many friends with the skills and abilities to easily either start they own business in their trade or move up in their existing industry, but don't.

    Usually, they don't start their own business because they aren't willing to risk being unsuccessful. They won't take the initial pay-cut during the transition, because "what if they fail". They won't borrow the money (as an additional mortgage, for example), because they just don't believe in their own success.

    Similarly, they won't apply for the "managers' job", or whatever the next step up is, because they don't know how to keep that job. They know how to work hard, and keep the low-level job, but they don't know what's involved in managing others, so they worry that they won't be able to be responsible for their subordinates, and hence will get fired.

    In either scenario, they stick with their current job simply because they are afraid to take new risks.

    They forget that a) they took an initial risk when they got their current job; b) that if the company isn't doing well, they'll get fired before their boss does, no matter how good they are at their boss; and c) you keep taking the same risk until you figure out how to make it work, or you're forever stuck where you are.

    You don't get people to advance by showing them how to advance. You get people to advance by removing their fear of the unknown; then they'll advance all by themselves without any help from anyone.

    Good luck.

    1. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      The thing is, if a person is technical it doesn't really make sense to take a manager job. Being a manager is an entirely different skillset. Some people who are technical also have the skills to be a manager but it is not necessarily a natural fit. Same goes for starting a company. You need all kinds of different skills for that. If a person wants to be a manager, they should just skip technical training and get an MBA already.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      ...and that would be a reason to get stuck: not willing to learn a new skillset. So sorry that advancement requires something more/new.

      and bullshit. I'm a technical person, I started my own company the moment I hated the way other companies did things. I dropped out of school, I worked hard, I experimented a lot, I failed my fair share, and now, 25 years later, I'm still going strong. I've chosen my lifestyle, and made it suit my personality and my goals. And because of that, no one in history has ever been any richer than I am right now.

    3. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > all the ones that moved up, and none of the ones that didn't.

      Bah! You lie off the top and the rest of your post has no reason to be read.

    4. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I have my own company as well, but read my words carefully: "not everyone is capable of doing that".

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    5. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      You find me a low-level worker,
      willing to go one month with zero pay,
      then two years before linearly making it back to the same pay-rate,
      and willing to lose it all if they truly screw up (they effectively need to guarantee their own performance),
      and willing to learn the new skillsets required of the new job responsibilities,
      and willing to fail, fall off the horse, then get back on and try again,
      who then didn't evenntually wind up advancing accordingly.

      I've got plenty of examples, right in-front of me every day, of people who
      refused to guarantee their own work,
      refused to lose their current salary,
      refused to learn anything new,
      and/or got deterred by the first set-back.

    6. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Very true. Not everyone is capable of advancing. Not everyone is capable of learning something new. Not everyone is capable of being any more successful than they already are. But it's never (typically) about them being held back, it's about the risks that they aren't willing to take.

      And if you own your own company, then you're likely very familiar with one of my philosophies: if a million people do it every day, then I'm able to learn it too. There are plenty of reasons to avoid learning something new, but that's always my choice, one way or the other.

      I'm not capable of bungee jumping, and I'm probably too terrified to be *capable* of learning. But really, that's not the bungee's fault.

    7. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Yes I had to learn a lot to start my own company, probably around 20 different technologies and the management stuff on top, and I had to sacrifice many personal hours working. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. If what I did is what it takes for an average person to get one small advance in life then I believe in welfare and UBI more than ever. What I won't do is sit all smug and expect that others make the same sacrifices I did or be screwed over. I am always on the edge of burnout. One shouldn't have to go through this in order to obtain more for themselves and their families.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    8. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Why should skilled people waste their efforts on management? Because of business structures dating back to the industrial revolution?

      If people 'moved up' by being good at their job, instead of having to fit into a management role, then the calculus on making such a decision becomes much simpler. Entrepreneurs are useful. But we've OVERWHELMINGLY overvalued them, and give them far more money than they deserve, even though it's tough to accurately evaluate their contributions, and the data we do have suggests that paying them more actually lowers performance.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    9. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      It's not that they aren't willing to learn a new skillset. It's that there is ONE skillset that is involved with advancement, and no matter the breadth or depth of other skillsets, you hit a bit of a career plateau if you don't have that one skillset.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    10. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      ...because younger people are cheaper at any task that can be taught, tutorialized, trained, or proceduralized; they can also be automated.

      If you want to make more money, your idea of "better" means nothing. You need to be your employer's idea of better. These days, and for most industries it's always been true, that means you need to make decisions out of experience, not work harder.

      Making decisions out of experience is called management. Whether you're "managing" yourself, others, or the company as a whole, that's the value.

      When it comes to just "doing the work", almost every business would rather it take six times as long, and cost half as much, than cost more and be done faster & better. Teenagers are cheap -- they don't have families and mortgages and cars and problems.

      But hey, you know the rule, and for those who don't, I'll tell you now. It is this:

      If you don't like the way the business is run, run your own.

      So, if you don't like the "business structures dating back to the industrial revolution", as you say, then create your own business and run it however you like. Or pay someone to run it for you, your way.

      But this garbage that you spew where you assume that models 100 years old are somehow less relevant because they are old, is just ignorant. You ignore the test-of-time in favour of informed-observation, but you don't consider past results as valued information in-and-of-themselves, and you think that your information isn't somehow flawed to begin with.

      If you don't like it the way that it is, do it yourself any way that you like. You don't get to be upset by something that someone else did for themselves. You don't want to live that way, you can quit at any time.

    11. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. There are SIX skillsets, any one of which can advance you. You need to refuse all six of them to hit that career plateau.

      I was an awkward, highly technical, coludn't-talk-to-adults teenager. I got clients with one sentence and one sentence alone: "you won't pay until you're happy with it."

      I built business solutions for small and mid-sized companies, for, at that time, anywhere between $100 and $10'000, and I'd often get $0 for months at a time as I developed, learned, tested, presented, adjusted, tweaked, changed, delivered, and launched a solution for a client. Only then would I be able to invoice the project, and wait for it to be paid.

      And with no contract, and no P.O., and absolutely nothing written, every single client could walk away from me without paying at any time.

      I guaranteed my effort, and I found the clients willing to take a chance on me, because they only chance they were taking was time. And I didn't win them all, far from it, but I made good money over-all.

      There are commission-based jobs -- like sales and collections. There are service-based jobs like painting and handywork. There are programming jobs like websites and software. There are manufacturing jobs and design jobs and strategy jobs and research jobs.

      If you're open to any type of job, I promise you have the skillset to make a business out of it that can support you and your family. You'll undoubtedly want to learn some very basic protections first, of course.

      That's what most people don't know. There are protections out there for business relationships that go bad.

      In my case, I could take down a web-site that I built that the client didn't pay for. So they'd get nothing if they paid nothing. SO they paid to keep what I'd already given them, if they were at all happy about it. And with no contract, I could unilaterally take down anything that I had built.

      If you work on someone's house/property at all, you can easily get a lean on their house, which basically means they can't sell their house without paying you. That covers just about any service you could provide.

      Collections agencies will enforce anything that looks like an invoice for work done in any industry. You'll get 90% of your bill if you were at all honest about your work.

      Got a written agreement of any kind with a dollar and a date? Small claims court costs $500 or way less, and you'll get a judge to force your client to pay your bill, up to ten grand. If you did the work, you'll get it all, but even if you didn't finish the work, you'll almost surely get your hard expenses paid for.

      Between insurance, and bank loans, and grants, and tax credits, you can orchestrate your business to protect you in so many many ways.

      But, most importantly, if you're working for someone else in a service industry (e.g. plumber), they are likely billing out your services at three or four times what they pay you. That covers costs and equipment, sure, and sales and collections, of course, but it also covers supervision and handling and communicating with you and reviewing your work and fixing your mistakes. If you're willing to cover your own work, those last five elements come for free. Those are the big ones. So you really don't need anywhere near the amount of business that you get when you work for someone else. Think less than half -- because you're able to keep so much more of it.

      Then add all of the obvious business write-offs, and the legitimate ones that your friends think are illegal only because they've never read their own tax code and so they pay what they've told to pay, and you'll realize that you can avoid paying 80% of the taxes that you're currently paying throughout your every-day life.

      You need to take a lot of big risks to go-it-on-your-own, but it all comes back very quickly once you succeed at the first step. That first step takes two "business cycles", which is basically two years for most industries.

    12. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      If you want to make more money, your idea of "better" means nothing. You need to be your employer's idea of better. These days, and for most industries it's always been true, that means you need to make decisions out of experience, not work harder.

      Who said anything about "working harder"? The value is in being smart, and MBAs aren't the smart ones.

      When it comes to just "doing the work", almost every business would rather it take six times as long, and cost half as much, than cost more and be done faster & better. Teenagers are cheap -- they don't have families and mortgages and cars and problems.

      And almost every coach will punt on a fourth down. That doesn't mean it's not the wrong decision. The values you are talking about, cheap labor and low quality, are hallmarks of the industrial revolution mindset, and they are not an effective use of the American labor force. But we've got enough education that the average worker can contribute, and higher quality workers are more useful. However, there's a lot of race-to-the-bottom, garbage, so workers have to compete in a global market while managers largely don't.

      But this garbage that you spew where you assume that models 100 years old are somehow less relevant because they are old, is just ignorant. You ignore the test-of-time in favour of informed-observation, but you don't consider past results as valued information in-and-of-themselves, and you think that your information isn't somehow flawed to begin with.

      Except the data makes it pretty clear that valuing employees and their contributions increases productivity, while CEO pay has nothing to do with results, except for somewhat of an inverse correlation.

      If you don't like the way the business is run, run your own.

      Oh, that's really fucking clever of you. Except it ignores that people can be highly skilled, and not have the particular skills to run a business. Someone can be smarter than anyone else they've ever met, but not be good at elevator pitches, or schmoozing with investors. The dumbest fucking manager I've ever met said basically that exact same bullshit to an employee that was smarter, worked harder, an was better at making decisions than him, despite the fact that this manager's previous business had failed.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    13. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      "smarter, worked harder, and was better at making decisions" has absolutely nothing to do with advancement. I don't know why you would think that it does. Those have everything to do with staying exactly where you are. You're good at it. Really good. So I want you to stay there and keep doing it. Why does that surprise you?

      the amount you get paid for your work also has nothing to do with how smart/hard/better you are. you get paid purely based on how many other people can do the same thing. plain and simple. if anyone can be taught to do what you do, then you get paid less. Not because it's worth less, but simply because I can replace you with someone who'll take less. There's always someone with a lesser lifestyle than yours, and hence there's always someone to whom I can pay less.

      So since advancement and pay have nothing to do with your skills, then what does?

      Again, you need to be willing to risk, willing to pull the trigger, and willing to convince others to work for you. That means "previous business had failed" means willing to risk -- risk just means that you'll have multiple failures for every success. Otherwise, it's a guarantee, not a risk.

      Willing to pull the trigger means cutting research and planning short, in favour of actual action, because you can never have enough information in-advance. Trial and error means trying even though you might be in error. Having all the information in-advance isn't trying, it's just plain following the recipe. And often is the case that you could try and fail six times in the same amount of time it would take you to finish your research. That's why it's often said that the more chances you take, the more luck you'll find.

      You mock the elevator pitches, and schmoozing, but that's exactly the definition of convincing others to work for you. You need to command others to do favours for you. That's the elevator pitch. Getting someone who doesn't need you at all, to help you anyway.

      So, if you aren't willing to fail, and you can't convince others to help you, and you won't risk everything you have on your own performance, then big surprise you won't advance.

      You're asking others to advance you. That's not how advancement works. Advancement is something that you need to do to yourself.

      No one cares about "increasing productivity" and "effective use of the American labor force". The reason coaches choose to punt on fourth down isn't because it's the right decision.

      Here's your lesson in being the boss.

      After you take all of those risks, and all of those failures, and all of those successful pitches, the rule as a business owner is don't screw it up, don't rock the boat, stop taking risks. Once you win at the roulette wheel, you don't keep playing until you lose. You walk away with your winnings.

      The reason coaches punt on fourth down is because they won't be fired for doing so.

      Bosses don't care about productivity. They care about avoiding risks. Current productivity and no risk will always beat out double productivity with increased risk, no matter how minor.

      That's the truth about your boss. It's the truth about me. It's the reason I've never let my employees make things better in any way that risks a single client.

      Here's a case in point. I run a web development company. I have a choice. I can have one platform run all clients, or I can duplicate the platform and codebase for each project of each client. The latter obviously means way more platform maintenance, bug fixes and upgrades, dozens of versions of the same platform all running at once, multiple levels of dependencies, and so much more code to maintain. The former would be way easier in every way. Except with one central codebase, one serious bug in one day can take down all projects and I could lose every client all at once in a single day. That would destroy my business, and my livlihood, from one mistake. So, instead, I have over 60 versions of the codebase to maintain. And it means that one b

    14. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      How do you support a family on $0 a month?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    15. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Either you save-up in-advance, or you borrow against your own future. Some people don't start a family until they have something saved -- personally, I had half of my first house in cash, in order to cover most of my mortgage. And then, when I wanted to change my lifestyle, I grew my mortgage as a bridge-loan. Earlier in my life, I borrowed money from friends and family when I wanted to grow my business by taking a risk on an iffy new client.

      Nowadays, I pay it forward. I loan as much as 50% of my annual revenue to friends and family who need loans and can't get them from a bank. I basically extend my bank credit to them so they can bridge the gap between their present and future. And to be clear, I don't profit from it at all.

      That's what believing in your friend means. It's seeing that they have the skill, and simply lack the opportunity to apply that skill. It's not a risk to me because I don't worry that they'll skip-town with the money, and I don't believe that they'll fail at applying their skill. The bank needs proof and profit because the bank is a business and a stranger. I'm neither to my friend. My friend has credit with me, by definition.

      My father always said that you don't do anything by yourself in this world, and especially in business. You're always relying on someone. Some people think that they're independent when they borrow money from a bank, instead of from a friend. That makes zero sense. You're still dependent on the bank. You still haven't done it alone. Someone believed in you and someone helped you out. If you're going to be honest and pay it back anyway, better it be a friend, because then you can pay back the money, and the favour.

    16. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you have been lucky more than anything. You haven't had any major health emergencies. Maybe you had parents you could live with until you were thirty-five. Friends always pay you back. Also I wonder how many retirement savings you have. You still don't sound like you are in a position to have a family.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    17. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Many good guesses. Some bang-on. I certainly lived with parents for a while, not 35, but a while. Did friends always pay me back? Certainly when it came to anything big they did. Obviously I've still got a few on-going, so let's hope they turn out well.

      I have a small retirement savings in terms of investments, but I have a huge amount of equity in the house. Really, that's where my current retirement savings go, and that's where my savings can currently do the most good -- for me, I'm not an investment junkie. In ten-to-twenty years, when my mortgage is paid off, and I decide to sell this house, it'll be worth two-to-three million. My next house (out in the country is my plan) will be a quarter of that. So I'm expecting to have 1.5 million in excess equity in ten years; more in twenty. I'm 37 now, so that's pretty good for now. Add in my savings from here on, and I'll survive with more or less of my current lifestyle quite easily. Add my beloved's contributions, and we're set that much longer. Add inheritance, that next big business idea, the winning lottery ticket, the twenty that I found on the street last week, and the fifty that I found in that old leather jacket from highschool and I have nothing to worry about.

      I also own (outright) the cars, the furniture, and everything else, with zero debt, aside from a reasonable mortgage. And I already have the family, including two pets. Add tickets to 20 theatrical shows every season, eight weeks of vacations planned for this year, a weekly housekeeper, a monthly lawn-care service, direct-from-the-farm foods year-round (seasonally of course), and a cheap sportscar, and I think most would be pretty happy with my life in this quite large house.

      Sorry if that disappoints you. Of course I've been lucky. But you make it sound as though I haven't created that luck. No I (personally) haven't had any major health emergencies, besides some broken bones and allergies, but I've also played very safe and avoided a lot of low-risk-high-danger activities that most people do every day. Also, I have free health insurance.

      Certainly not everyone can live with parents as long as I did, but I'm sure you had friends with whom you could have shared expenses in order to save your pennies. In those years, I saved about twenty grand in cash each year. I'd be in the same place today if I had saved only half as much (I'd have a slightly larger mortgage, and no granite countertops in the bathrooms).

      If you're willing to sacrifice -- in my case, it was the freedom and independence of living alone, a university degree, selecting the right activities and the right friends -- you don't need to sacrifice for long.

      On the other hand, if you want super freedom, and you want to do everything alone, and you don't want to take anything from anybody, then you're going to select the toughest roughest roads every time.

    18. Re: Welcome entrepreneurs by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Well I can tell you that it wouldn't have worked for me. Two cancers and a rare autoimmune disease. Without a steady job with decent coverage I would have been screwed.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    19. Re: Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Okay; I can see how those would pull you out-of-the-norm. Glad to see that you're at least out-of-the-woods from it all. Here's hoping there were lots of someones in your life who were generous with their time and resources to help you through it.

    20. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      the amount you get paid for your work also has nothing to do with how smart/hard/better you are. you get paid purely based on how many other people can do the same thing. plain and simple. if anyone can be taught to do what you do, then you get paid less. Not because it's worth less, but simply because I can replace you with someone who'll take less. There's always someone with a lesser lifestyle than yours, and hence there's always someone to whom I can pay less.

      Okay, let's cut the crap. We could more effectively import managers form India than software developers. So why should we pay them so much money, and why should we pay them so much more NOW in the US? The rate of executive pay has skyrocketed, even though they haven't made any real breakthroughs. Management and owners are wildly overpaid. That shouldn't be a surprise, given that direct labor has been outsources, while management is much less susceptible. Plus, the management and owner class tends to buy off more politicians.

      No one cares about "increasing productivity" and "effective use of the American labor force".

      I do, and most people probably do, although they probably don't see in those exact terms. Cheap labor is becoming obsolete, and poverty is a drag on basically everything. People whose work is more fulfilling and whose thoughts are listened to get a lot more done.

      The reason coaches choose to punt on fourth down isn't because it's the right decision.

      Yeha, it's because they are overly risk-averse cowards. But risk-averse cowards would get pulverized by teams driven by statistics, provided that the coach can stay around long enough for committing what is treated as a cardinal sin in football. It's the same idea as moneyball.

      After you take all of those risks, and all of those failures, and all of those successful pitches, the rule as a business owner is don't screw it up, don't rock the boat, stop taking risks. Once you win at the roulette wheel, you don't keep playing until you lose. You walk away with your winnings.

      Why not just admit that at a certain point, entrepreneurs become a liability, and the company should gut them for boring, practical people who can be easily replaced. Apple was largely right to kick out Steve Jobs, for example, despite him helping them revive their image later. Let the entrepeneurs get back to doing their thing, probably with enough money left that they can find another success without having to endure nearly as much suffering.

      Unless, of course, it's just a racket where occasionally some people get lucky and move up the ladder, and thus merit has nothing to do with it (which you largely said already). Unless you use "business sense", which is full of bullshit treated as gospel by the in-group in the exact same way that spies believe in polygraphs.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    21. Re:Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Wow. I can honestly say that I agree with every one of your statements. Nicely observed.

      But it changes nothing.

      The reason that entrepreneurs and bosses and managers get paid more than they are worth (in terms of value) is purely because there are so few people willing to do that work (including getting there to do it). It's really that simple.

      And the reason that they stay there, instead of going back to doing what they do best, is because they craft it that way.

      Here's the irony: I can say that from personal experience. That's my rutt, as it were.

      I was an entrepreneur. I failed a few times, I succeeded one big time. And now, I'm comfortable, great lifestyle, doing the work that I do as I've been doing it for a long time. I would love nothing more than to go back to the entrepreneurial spirit and fail a few more times before succeeding again. I live the new inventions spirit. But I won't dare give up my comfortable life as it is right now. Things are too easy.

      So I've crafter the business, the services, the products, the clients, the relationships, the suppliers, and the technology, all to keep me stable in this current scenario. I'm stuck in this boss/manager/owner world, just like lower-ladder staff are the way that I've been describing herein. And certainly, my business could be way better if run by someone else. But it's not about my business. It's about my life. Right now, I'm very happy, and very comfortable. It's hard to give that up.

      Now, how's that for irony?

    22. Re: Welcome entrepreneurs by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      But my point is that you are talking like the way you did it would work for anyone. It doesn't, so don't. Just count your blessings.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    23. Re: Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Oh come now. "anyone" needn't mean 100%. I know we're all technical people around here, but in most industries (psychology, for example), 90% would certainly constitutes "anyone". I'll happily argue that while it won't work for some, those are the exceptions, the outliers.

    24. Re: Welcome entrepreneurs by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      That would be fine if people knew whether they were going to fall in the 10% or not. But it's not like I predicted getting struck by cancer twice. So while you view it that you're comments are helpful to 90%, I am far more concerned that they are harmful to 10%. Yes, someone can run their lives like you, but then when they become an outlier people will be heartless in asking them why they didn't prepare better and why they made such bad choices.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    25. Re: Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      I've got news for you: people are heartless and ask why I didn't prepare better too. Ask me how many times someone's insisted that I should finish my university degree so I have something to fall back on. It's been twenty years, and they're still buggin' me. Most people just expect that the only valid option is the most common option. The yforget that the most common result is not success.

    26. Re: Welcome entrepreneurs by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Well you are kind of hedging your bet on things continuing to go smoothly. You may be past the most risky part of your life, but I don't know if I would recommend it as general practice for people.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    27. Re: Welcome entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Ah, but isn't that just the point? I'm going to say that while many other lifestyles certainly "seem" like the more stable and smoother option, they really aren't. Big companies churn more employees, medium companies are bought out and destroyed more often than small ones, peons get thrown around more.

      I'm a big fan of cradle-to-grave calculations. When I look at what-we'll-call "common" career paths, I see people going without work an average of 1 month every year. Being between jobs, seasonal hours, not-enough-work, et cetera. I obviously don't get that. And while sometimes I work additional hours to get something done that should have taken less time, sometimes I get more money for something that should have taken a lot more time.

      The end result of my observations is that my career is far more stable on a year-to-year basis. I'll admit that a common career is more stable month-to-month, and company-to-company, but those are all highly illusionary. I don't get paid month-to-month, and I can certainly have a downturn in business at any time. But looking back over the years, I've far-beaten the common path.

      The mystery is scary. For example, right now, I have zero promise of any income whatsoever in the fall. But we all know that by the summer I'll have fall planned.

      Whereas a common employee may know their income for the fall already, because it's a contracted position, but any employee can be fired for any number of reasons, including the very same downturn in business at the upper levels. That I can see it makes it scary, but it doesn't make it any more risky.

  30. Especially not my boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    She's at her desk for maybe 2 hours a day, then off working a side gig or at a 2 hour lunch. No worries though, her days are numbered.

  31. CEO by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    I also suspect being a CEO is worth nowhere near 800x the amount I make.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  32. Re: Work under Capitalism by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Uh.. raises? My company only gives yearly bonuses. No one gets raises.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  33. Rights protection my a$$ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rights-protection is one way to define the status quo. If we went with rights-protection, we would do away with most taxpayer funded initiatives including public schools. And don't say vouchers.

    What we want instead is human development, which is not a strict interpretation of rights protection. Otherwise, we'll turn into a third world country real quick. Once the disparity of wealth increases, it is hard to keep out corruption (because the cops simply aren't making enough money and justice is what you can buy). But maybe that's what you want - an America where you are rich in an island of poverty. Maybe what you want is not that things are better for you, but worse for others.

  34. the world according to Linda Hill, et al. by epine · · Score: 2

    The highest work-stress job, from the Wharton–Harvard perspective, is the star performer (software developer, sales person) promoted into their first management position, often without any prior psychological preparation for the change (how hard can it be to manage people doing what I so clearly excelled at doing? larvae in ointment: without actually doing their work for them?)

    In a high-pressure setting, first year is hell, usually devolves into an unrelenting fire fight, with a high ultimate attrition rate. (Who new that hardball sales tactics don't translate well to daily proximity?)

    Once the junior manager recovers from Boot Camp, the job remains difficult, but the compensation is pretty good, if you "manage" to hang around long enough to get promoted off the management front line.

    Year one: learning how to delegate down

    Year two: paying more attention to what lies above (and not just the marching orders)

    Year three: fully investing in peer relationships with other managers at the same level, elsewhere in the organization

    Someone who entered the work force intending to become a manager likely accomplishes this in less time. But these people have always been a small minority in the studies I've read.

    A year into the job, there is nearly a 100% response rate that the new managers had failed to appreciate the importance of investing in peer relationships (not that they would have found the time during Management Boot Camp 101 in any case). Lateral politics. It's a thing.

    Back to the article, at the bottom of the heap, how does one carve a reasonable line between general life stress and work stress?

    I can't even imagine.

    Dunderheads. Imagine having to manage the people who wrote this study. One can only imagine.

    Look on my workers, troubled sea of mighty dunderheads, and despair!

    1. Re:the world according to Linda Hill, et al. by int19 · · Score: 1

      All the world for a mod point!

      I am currently in the process of doing exactly what you describe and can attest to the intense level of stress that it brings. There is always stress at work, but for where I am entering I find it to be much greater. Previously I concerned myself with doing a good job to a) keep my job and b) keep the company happy. Now I concern myself with these same tasks, however c) I feel a greater level of risk now that I am making and am responsible for the tactical decisions and d) as I try to delegate more it becomes my burden to make difficult decisions when employees can't perform.

      I consider myself lucky that my boss is intentionally working on a gradual transition for this so as to minimize shock to both myself and the organization.

  35. Most of my stress is financial by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    So of course my boss it less stressed, he makes more. I'm guessing this started out as another narrative along the lines of "job creators" and the like meant to stop the working class from questioning their declining standard of living...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  36. socialist properganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the only bosses that have the time to answer their surveys are the non stressed ones!

    Already the fact that they selected the word boss, and not owner, is a sign that they had their result, before doing their study!

    someone hired to be a boss or CEO, have noting to stress over (other than their greed), as most of them can quit any day they want to. (only losing a bonus or stock options.)

    But the owner of at company, can lose their entire livelihood.
    They still have to pay their employees, and a lot of other shit, even if the company is not making any money. Some may have worked 60 hour weeks for 40 years and if they cant get anyone to buy their company, may have to leave it all to the bank and end up with absolutely nothing.

    A CEO on the other hand is just an overpaid employee! nothing more, nothing less.

  37. Debt liability by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 1

    In a truly free market owners would be liable for the debts of the company. Funnily enough scrapping limited liability isn't part of the free market manifesto.

    1. Re:Debt liability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scrapping limited liability would raise the bar of entry for new companies, which is ironically what the post you are replying to is complaining about.

      Do you own any stock? Say you own 1 share of Enron stock previously worth $100 and it goes bankrupt. Should they repossess your house and car because of it?

    2. Re:Debt liability by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      However, limited liability corporations are pretty much necessary in an economy of this size, even though they mess up the free markets.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  38. "Capitalism is a brutal psychological gauntlet" by Tighe_L · · Score: 1

    Seriously? Leninist babies. How about you go live in North Korea. Capitalism is the best option out there until robot overlords take over and provide for cattle-like Utopian existence for all humans you so dearly desire.

  39. Then you need to better manage your boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My boss is the one that filters out the corporate bullshit and lets me do my job. I have managed to have it that way with 2 different companies and 3 different bosses.

    I don't get stressed out because of timelines, I let them do that. I just get the job done.

  40. TPS Reports by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey folks, I am still waiting on your TPS reports. Remember we are using the new TPS cover sheet. Don't get it confused with the old cover sheet. Oh, mmmyeah, I am going to need you come in this weekend.

  41. Let me fix that for you by barakn · · Score: 2

    Unions helped lift those out of the poverty that previously plagued all but a tiny hereditary elite since time immemorial until a period just two centuries ago.

    Not only is my version correct, it's shorter.

    --
    "I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
    1. Re:Let me fix that for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No more than a third of workers were ever members of a union.

    2. Re:Let me fix that for you by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      And they carry the rest on their shoulders.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    3. Re:Let me fix that for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unions helped lift those out of the poverty that previously plagued all but a tiny hereditary elite since time immemorial until a period just two centuries ago.

      It's not "all but a tiny hereditary elite": historically many people improved their lot in life. There are rags to riches stories going back in history to at least the 4th century. To given some extreme examples, former peasants became emperors in both China (Zhu Yuangzhang) and Rome (Justin).

      There is no doubt that unions have done some good, but if you make provably false statements you undermine your own position.

      Equally, unions have sometimes done considerable harm.

      For example, there is considerable historical economic evidence that unions that increased unemployment in the USA, particularly among minorities.

      For another example, there were lots of problems with the unions in both Britain and the USA during WW2. Doubtless a fair number of soldiers and sailors died as a result of not getting the equipment they needed in a timely manner. It's been estimated that the total lost working hours in the USA alone could have given the navy another 100 destroyers. Union problems were much worse in Britain, though since their industrial productivity was much lower the difference might be a wash.

      Like most things in life, you get the good with the bad.

  42. All Hail Science! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to believe that my boss worked hard and was more stressed that I was because he and he is an authority figure. Now that we have scientist, another authoritarian figures to displace the authority of my boss, I have to believe the scientists. They are scientist after all. I know that the media tells me science is always right and a force for freedom so I will believe the scientists. My only question is what scientists made this ground breaking authoritative study.

    Was it the same scientist that said the negro man was inferior to the white man
    Was it the same scietntist that absoluty positively concluded through a double blind placebo controlled scientific study that steroids do not promote muscle grow in the 1950's
    was it the same scientists that said the earth was posively 2. billion years old, or the scientists that said it was absolutley 4 billion years old, or the ones that said that it wasa 4.5 billion yeaRS OLD or the ones that said it was 4.6 billion years old.

    I an an educated american american and I realize that religion is superstition. I like all people brainwashed by the media, blindly accept the authority of science and scientist. I am too stoopit to think on my own and will defer to experts to do all my thinging and spelling for me. After all scientist can see electrons. Who am i to question the omniscience of scientist with their magical all seeing eyeballs.

    All Hail Science. Only homophobic homosexual nazi pedophile communist Trump supporters dare question the supreme power of science. Don't think on your own. Instead believe in Science! Questioning denies the power of science. Do not deny science!

  43. Incorrectly done study: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have to factor in the fact that some people have a greater tolerance for stress than the rest of us. Those are the people who can climb over the backs of everyone else in sprinting up the corporate ladder. I would expect their cortisol levels to be lower, just because they are not as bothered by stress as the rest of us.

    A correct study would measure the same person's cortisol levels when they were in a low-level job, and when they were in a high-level job (and having to deal with all the powerful people there). I'd bet that person's cortisol level would be higher in the higher-level job.

  44. Middle monkeys by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    IIRC there was a study some time back that said monkeys near the middle of the pecking[1] order had the most stress.

    Of course managers aren't monkeys ...

    [1] or shit throwing or flea picking, whatever the equivalent is

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  45. Money theory by DMJC · · Score: 3

    Money is like gravity, the more you have, the easier it is to attract more of it. The less you have, the more likely it is your money will be sucked into the gravity well of a larger amount of money belonging to someone else. Example: My cousin was given a $100,000 4% interest loan at the age of 21 from his multi millionaire father. He also was given a job after dropping out of university (his university debt was wiped by his parents), as a forklift driver (aroun $55k) in his dad's company. Within 2 years he was making commission as a salesman in same company (around $65k BUT with commission around $85k). after 10 years he has bought 3 investment properties. This is due to his starting conditions. Now my situation: I went to university and dropped out after 2 years. This left a student loan debt of $10,000. I have been working entry level jobs for the past 4 years (averaging $50k and am finally breaking into an 80k role). My dad is not as successful as his brother so I was never offered a 4% interest loan at the age of 21 like my cousin. In Australia there has been a property boom/bubble and the average price of an apartment is $350,000, and a house is pushing $750,000 nationally. As a result I own 0 property and am still struggling to save for a deposit, those who got in earlier such as my cousin have had a massive leg up. I am currently being head hunted for a well paying job, but I still don't have that extra boost of a loan no bank would issue a 21 year old with. Capital matters. The sooner you start with a sum of money the further ahead you'll get. Start with 100,000 at 21, and it's easy to get a million dollars by 35.

    1. Re:Money theory by DMJC · · Score: 1

      I'll also add that because he bought investment property early, he has had his income supplemented by rental income, whereas I am paying rent each year at a cost to my finances of about $18,000. So assuming he's charging for rent what I pay for rent he's gaining a $36,000/year lead on me financially.

  46. Silly premise by mattwarden · · Score: 1

    The whole premise of this study is silly. Stress is bad. You do not want any employees to be stressed. You want them performing highly without stress. You especially do not want supervisory employees stressed, as that can be contagious, AND work by folks higher in the food chain is highly levered. You want high performing, calm, stress free supervisory employees. And, you want them to be both smart and lazy. I don't remember the name of the quadrant, but there is a famous quadrant showing IQ and laziness... high IQ and low laziness tend to be poor managers, as they don't delegate tasks they should delegate. High IQ and high laziness can result in a manager that delegates well and can scale his/her IQ across workloads of many employees.

    Orgs like Entrepreneurs Organization and Young Presidents Organization will beat owners/CEOs up for trying to work IN the business rather than ON the business. You do your company a great disservice if you are trying to scale by working harder yourself. That scale factor is really poor, increasingly poor at each level of growth, and has a ceiling. You should be working to work yourself out of a job, and you should perform tests where you disappear to play golf and observe what does and doesn't break. You won't actually ever work yourself out of a job if you're growing, but you won't be the limiting factor to your growth.

    And that's why supervisory employees get paid more, btw. It's not that they work harder. Good managers have a high ROI due to the scaling of their direction and oversight

    1. Re:Silly premise by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Stress, in the proper amount, is good for productivity. I'd rather be challenged by my job than not, and challenges come with stress.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:Silly premise by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      You can have all kinds of challenges without stress. Half of pilot training is to remain unstressed even when your engine is on fire. You're conflating issues and making my point.

  47. Study only looks at UK civil servants by aj50 · · Score: 1

    The study is looking specifically at UK civil servants after seven years or so of government austerity policies.

    I'm not convinced it's representative of the workforce as a whole.

    --
    I wish to remain anomalous
    1. Re:Study only looks at UK civil servants by aj50 · · Score: 1

      Though if I could read, I'd notice that it uses "Data from the 7th (2002–2004), 8th (2006), and 9th (2007–09) phases of the London-based Whitehall II civil servants study", i.e. before the current government policies.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
  48. Dealing with stress is a skill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The higher-ups are usually higher-up because they can deal with stress more eloquently. Starting and running a business is immensely stressful - but learning to deal with that stress is what allows you to continue. It's foolish to belittle those who've found success and excuse it like they were just lucky - it's that kind of attitude that will ensure you never find success yourself.

  49. elevated stress continues into retirement by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    "elevated stress continues into retirement for average working people."

    Seems like pretty good proof that it had nothing to do with their working environment then...

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:elevated stress continues into retirement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "elevated stress continues into retirement for average working people."

      Seems like pretty good proof that it had nothing to do with their working environment then...

      That's not even remotely true. Human beings develop habits. If you ever spend much time in the movement arts (dance, martial arts) you'll eventually realize that people carry an enormous amount of unnecessary stress around with them in the form of habitual muscular tension. It can take years of training to get rid of this excess tension - and most people will never have that training.

      A stressful work environment will build the wrong habits - and those habits could easily continue after retirement.

      Excess tension in the muscles can have a lot of negative side effects, such as increasing blood pressure (small muscles surround blood vessels), or making people more susceptible to falls. Activities that help people learn to be more relaxed can undo some of the effects of many years of exposure to a stressful environment. Things like Yoga, Pilates, Tai Chi, or medication can provide substantial and measurable health benefits (such as reduced incidence of falls in the elderly). All this assumes a motivated student and a good teacher, and that the activity itself does not lead to injury (which is not always a given: young teachers in particular tend to make a lot of mistakes with their students).

      If the legal structure of a society requires a safe and healthy work environment, then a stressful work environment is actually illegal.

  50. Difficulty doesn't correlate with value by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The problem with capitalism is that it should pay people with the hardest jobs more.

    The difficulty of a job does not strongly correlate with its economic value. Watch the show Dirty Jobs if you need evidence of this. The value of a job is a direct function of supply and demand for that job. There aren't a lot of people with the skills to be a heart surgeon or a professional athlete. This doesn't imply that those jobs are harder or more valuable than others, merely that the talent is hard to come by. Being a school teacher can in many ways be a harder job but it's not as difficult to find people who can perform adequately.

    What this means is that if you want to maximize your earning potential you need to develop skills that are comparatively rare and hard to replicate. My wife is a MD with a fairly rare sub-specialty. As a result she does well financially and has to work less hours than doctors in more common specializations. She has a rare skill that is not easy to replicate by people with less training. It's not that her job is harder but that it's harder to find people who can do it adequately.

    While a person up the ladder may have a more difficult job, by this article my suspicions are true and it is not necessarily the case. I also suspect things really get easier as you move up

    Some things get easier when you move up the ladder and some get harder. The physical toil and economic stress can be less. But the responsibility tends to become more. If the guy up the ladder fails it affects a lot more than just himself and his family. The CEO is responsible for many families and I can assure you that they feel the pressure. The hours at the top tend to be longer and you have a lot more people watching and judging what you do and how well you do it. If you are the owner of a company and it's your money on the line if things go tits up, that can be enormous stress.

  51. It's a differently kind of stress by nhat11 · · Score: 1

    And it's the type I don't want to deal with. I like working with systems that do what I tell it to do.

  52. Re: Work under Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe 40 hours a week is too much. It's great that you want to work for free after hours, but the vast majority of people don't want to work for free ever. Most people with FTE don't have enough free time to pursue their dreams and achieve what they really want to get out of life, because by the time they get home, cook/eat dinner, there's little time for anything else. Sure, you can spend that last hour or so working on your dream, but never spending any downtime to unwind and relax is a surefire way to burnout.

    Basically, unless you have the opportunity to get a good headstart on your dream before you get shackled to the FTE life, you're essentially a wage slave until you retire (if you're lucky enough to even get retirement), at which point you have all the time in the world to pursue your dream. Of course, you need to have the foresight at a young age to pursue your dream before getting shackled to FTE (which, at that age, most people don't). And in retirement, maybe your dream isn't feasible anymore because it was time-sensitive, or somebody else did it first, or you're just tired and worn out from working FT for decades and all you want to do is sit on a boat, drink beer, and fish. It's no wonder we have so few wildly successful people, when the vast majority of us simply aren't afforded the time necessary to pursue our dreams.

    We keep seeing all these increases in productivity, automation, efficiencies, things to free us up from doing work, but do we ever actually get to do less work? Hell no, they just lay off half of us, pocket the extra cash, and make us do even more.

  53. Re: Work under Capitalism by Megane · · Score: 1

    Then maybe you should take advantage of the free market and start looking for a better-paying job elsewhere. If your company won't give you a raise, you can give yourself one by changing employers. Assuming, of course, that you are actually worth more. Capitalism doesn't guarantee that you are always underpaid.

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }