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System76 Unveils Its Own Ubuntu-Based Linux Distribution Called 'Pop!_OS' (betanews.com)
BrianFagioli writes: Not content with simply following Canonical and embracing vanilla GNOME, System76 has decided to take its future into its own hands. Today, the company releases the first alpha of an all-new Linux-based operating system called "Pop!_OS," which will eventually be the only OS pre-loaded on its computers. While it will still be based on Ubuntu and GNOME, System76 is tweaking it with its own style and included drivers. In other words, the company is better controlling the user experience, and that is smart.
"The Pop!_OS community is in its infancy. This is a fantastic time to engage with and help develop the processes and practices that will govern the future development of the operating system and its community. The team is currently opening up planning for the development roadmap, code of conduct, discussion forums, and the processes surrounding code contribution. Progress made on Pop!_OS has established an inviting, modern, and minimalist look and has improved the first-use experience including streamlining installation and user setup. Work on the first release, scheduled for October 19th, centers on appearance, stability, and overall tightness of the user experience followed by adding new features and greater customization ability," says System76. You can check out the project on GitHub here and download the alpha ISO here. For more information, the company has set up a subreddi.
"The Pop!_OS community is in its infancy. This is a fantastic time to engage with and help develop the processes and practices that will govern the future development of the operating system and its community. The team is currently opening up planning for the development roadmap, code of conduct, discussion forums, and the processes surrounding code contribution. Progress made on Pop!_OS has established an inviting, modern, and minimalist look and has improved the first-use experience including streamlining installation and user setup. Work on the first release, scheduled for October 19th, centers on appearance, stability, and overall tightness of the user experience followed by adding new features and greater customization ability," says System76. You can check out the project on GitHub here and download the alpha ISO here. For more information, the company has set up a subreddi.
Well done.
Just like the overly enthusiastic parents that name their child "Jonn", or "Sarra", or "Madilene", you have now ensured that you will have to spell out the damn name every time you talk about it. And that "exclamation mark underscore" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.
>"While it will still be based on Ubuntu and GNOME, "
Blech. So it is just Ubuntu with a few tweaks. Yawn. Nothing to see here, keep moving. Still, I wish System76 well- I like what they do!
I'm getting so sick of linux distributions that call themselves "something something operating system" when they're really YET ANOTHER repackaging on top of a repackaging on top of a repackaging of an utterly boring thing. All that changes is the branding. There's really nothing new brought to the table. All that is added is another option, quite entirely indistinguishable from all the other options, confusing the newbies.
Hope their installer has a option for choosing the init software suite. ... :)
Systemd vs. Launchd
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System76 is hindered by Ubuntu because Ubuntu is hindered by Canonical. Surely there's a better source for a fork. I get that they have lots of Ubuntu experience and a history there, but Launchpad should be EOL.
writing the logs to /dev/null
The logs to /dev/null thing drives me nuts. Why can't systemd log messages? Problems that are obvious with the log message are often very difficult to fix since it just swallows log messages.
This. We keep having problems with NTP, MySQL, and MongoDB. The errors are always trivial to fix when you run the command by hand at the command line and see the error message. Why can't systemd log that?
MongoDB almost always has problems after an unclean shutdown. The error message doesn't end up in the journal, but if you run it by hand you see a clear error message. Why can't systemd log that?
i realize this is tech website but please for sake of my livelihood i'm not gonna make my daily rubles by talking about some stupid computer thing for stinky single men, we need to talk about letter agencies, clinton crimes, something about seth rich, and how USA is not so innocent.
Running NTP from systemd is just a disaster. We have several hundred servers that didn't update their time servers from DHCP. We had a lot of cert errors die to the incorrect time. systemd didn't log an error message.
Even if you ignore the massive scope creep, systemd is still a disaster since the logging is so bad. Logging is critical for administering machines and critical for security. We need logs.
As Linus pointed out, the systemd guys ignore bugs. As he said, they are "too cavalier about bugs." Ted Tso said "they don't consider or their responsibility to fix."
I'd be willing to live with the problems if they would just fix their logger.
Why in the hell would anyone think sending logs to /dev/null would be a good thing?
The stubborness upon which Ubuntu and now System76 insist on choosing the clearly inferior choice (GNOME) when there's a much better option (KDE's Plasma), is impressive.
-- Look to the Rose that blows about us--"Lo, Laughing," she says, "into the World I blow..."
"In other words, the company is better controlling the user experience, and that is smart. "
There's something on-the-nose about this comment, and I started typing to call it out... but I don't actually disagree. It's a good philosophy for users who want someone else to do that fiddly work for them so they can do whatever it is they actually give a shit about doing, without having to first worry about the OS.
It is a philosophical difference from many of the people who use Linux currently, who will control their own damn user experience, thank you very much! But I think that's the point - those people are already using Linux and can customise this to suit themselves if they wish to.
systemd is a great improvement in so many ways. We replaced about a ~20k shell script with a less than 20 line unit file, and it's more reliable because of the nice "Restart=always" setting. I just wish it wouldn't drop log messages. That makes troubleshooting problems nearly impossible sometimes.
Who the fuck are System76 ?
And why do we need another freaking Ubuntu "flavor" ?
Lennart just doesn't have enough experience to understand why logs are important.
"...Pop!_OS has established an inviting, modern, and minimalist look..."
Ugly flat interface. Probably with all the drop-down menus removed in favor of dumbed-down controls hidden behind cryptic icons. My experience with "modern" desktops has been uniformly negative. I mean, Windows, Mac, Gnome Shell, Unity...
Am I the only one who thinks the desktop environment and user interface was pretty well figured out and perfected by, say, ten years ago? Since then it's just been change for the sake of change (under the holy banner of "innovation") and misguided efforts to make desktop computers work like phones. The only present-day desktop that I find attractive and comfortable to use has been Ubuntu MATE, and their motto is "for a retrospective future".
Logs are required for security! I don't understand why they can't grok that.
Even that doesn't usually work. Do a Google search for "systemd restart not working," and you'll find almost a half a millions results. Even that minor feature doesn't work.
Either he doesn't understand or doesn't care. Both results are the same.
Because they don't care? They're making Linux more like Windows.
I don't think any of the systemd devs have experience in the real world so they just don't damn get it.
systemd doesn't restart services by design. According to this:
https://serverfault.com/questions/759764/systemd-does-not-restart-service-although-restart-always
you have to set other settings in order to get systemd to honor that setting. It sucks that something we so often need and should be so obvious is not according to systemd's design. If I set restart to always, I damn expect it to try to restart instead of Lennart making the decision to not restart.
That isn't what Lennart Poettering takes that setting to mean. According to him, it means restart a few times then hatefully just stop trying. With, as the GP noted, just sending log messages to /dev/null and refusing to try to restart services, he has proven he doesn't give a damn about servers. We need things to work and need logging.
This. Anyone that doesn't think logs are important has never managed a lot of servers or dealt with security problems.
Well writing to /dev/null is pretty damn fast so I don't blame them for cheating on benchmarks.
Good point about either option being the same. We need logs. Dammit.
You get what you measure. The systemd people are measuring the wrong things.
In other words, the company is better controlling the user experience, and that is smart.
Is that really smart? What attracts customers to System76 computers? Is it their superior software, or their (from what I've heard) sturdy, reliable hardware? You are given the choice between running Ubuntu or some obscure distribution that hardly anybody uses. System76 will probably not be able to make a community which is even the tenth of the size of the one for Ubuntu. If you run this distribution, few people will be able to help you if the issue happens on a component that differs even slightly from vanilla Ubuntu.
On a more general note, most of the software differentiation efforts that are run on Windows and Android have always looked to me like wasted efforts. When I buy a computer with Windows, one of the first things I will do is remove most, if not all of the manufacturer software that was bundled with it, since almost all of it is useless and/or undesirable. The situation on Android is even worse, in my opinion. The interface is often arbitrarily modified for no good reason, to the point that an upgrade of the Android version will move half the settings around. From having tried Nexus and Samsung phones, the GUI "improvements" are questionable at best, and they always make it difficult to make similar changes on different devices.
I'm an honest microsoft based admin. Haven't used Linux in production for 6 years due to change of job before I retired.
But just from a troubleshooting point of view, those logs being so jacked up would cause me enough concern that I would keep from using such setups unless i have no choice. It's simply not worth the headaches from the way everyone keeps reporting such issues. No I don't like parts of Windows 10 but I do like it overall. I'll stick with win7x64 until whenever I feel like it.
-geekpoet
Here is a perfect example of why Linux was never a real competitor to OSX and Windows, instead of actually investing their time and money into an already established OS? Lets just follow a lame trend so old its an XKCD joke.
Because this is EXACTLY what Linux needed, yet another distro with just enough changes to make it incompatible with everyone else...sigh. Can you imagine how kick ass Linux would have been if instead of reinventing the damned wheel 600+ times everyone got together and invested their time into simply making ONE DISTRO that was the absolute best, cleanest, and bug free OS they could possibly build? It would make OSX and Windows look like DOS!
But no, instead we have SSDD, one of 600+ distros to pile on distrowatch which will probably either be dead in less than 3 years or have less users than win98 in 2017, because God forbid people actually work together for the common good instead of more NIH bullshit...sigh.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
With a name like that, they MUST be targeting the Apple crowd...ROTFLMAO
Trump = Fat Orange Bitch
I noticed the phrase "code of conduct" in the summary. System76 must've been commandeered by SJWs. I'll take my business elsewhere.
I'd be willing to live with the problems if they would just fix their logger.
Why are you trying to bargain with deaf and dumb idiots?
Just ditch any and all code by those assholes. Problem solved forevermore.
We now have two laptops that we bought with Linux preinstalled, and specs above Apple's at the time we ordered (in January). We didn't get them from Syst76 because delivering abroad from the US and with 'local' keyboards wasn't feasible for them, we ordered from Tuxedo in Germany. Honestly, from casings to processors they really look similar, there musn't be so many equipment suppliers.
Well, Tuxedo explain they also raised this question of developing their own versions of linux flavors (you can select which linux you want with Tux), but they instead chose to prepare a separate package dedicated to their hardwares, which one can apply after a standard linux install.
(Their commitment on this only works with a 'short list' of linux versions -most of them Ubuntu based IIRC.)
I believe, if you are serious in proposing a range of hardware with linux preinstalled, sooner or later you cannot but consider you are at risk whenever any linux update is issued, and these are issued in a manner you can't control.
Syst76 way is one reaction, Tuxedo's is another, but I do understand that when your full business is potentially killable by an unexpected update you think about it.
And when I say killable it's very real, just imagine suddenly all your machines do not support e. g. bluetooth -a single, minor feature like that. Within hours, in ten forums, hundreds of posters will insult you, you sell sh.., doesn't work, don't buy that.
I for one wouldn'd sleep before deciding for a strategy...
Herve S.
SystemD is just a disaster. I went FreeBSD as it looks like all of the Linux systems will get infected sooner or later.
Mandriva, Xandros, Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS, LinuxMint, Steam OS and now this... There is always someone who looks at Desktop Linux and thinks "this is 85% percent done, all it needs is a new coat of paint and some drivers/codecs". The hard reality is that, unless Desktop Linux distros solve the "not compatible even with itself" problem (hint: The 14.04 LTS I use in work cannot even have the latest version of VLC), Desktop Linux isn't going anywhere. Unless Desktop Linux manages to drop the idiotic "one repo per version" approach (which is contrary to the industry-standard approach of picking a "base" version and launching a single binary that works from that version all the way to the latest version, with differences being worked with static libraries and shims, Desktop Linux isn't going anywhere. That's how Windows, OS X, Android and iOS do it. I can download the latest version of VLC on Windows Vista, and it is the same .exe that Windows 10 uses.
That's also the reason why a single exploit on one userland application would affect all versions of Windows.
It is painful to have different repo for each distro, but hey convenience and security are always opposites.
I think this company should get another name. System76 is no "sexy" at all. Your product may be a quality one, but getting a better branding is also an improvement.
Debian + XFCE here too.
It works beautifully. May eventually switch to i3, but got no complaints about XFCE.
Don't we have enough pop in our culture already?
"while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
It's against the linux culture to be backward compatible. That's why pulse audio and systemd exist. They MUST break things. If you want stability, use a BSD.
All I want is Fedora on a laptop, since Fedora and Centos are what I use anyway. I have never bought a System76 computer because they're Ubuntu based.
Get rid of Systemd and I'll buy one ..
oh come on , this is not an OS , or even a distribution , the OS is linux , the distribution is debian and the flavor Ubuntu , adding a few bells a whistles doesnt make a new distro and even less a new OS , this is at best what pretty much every seasoned Linux user does to their boxes anyhow
Good idea, make another freaking custom linux distro just because you can. So it will just be another distro where things dont work smoothly. so sad...
What if this had ALWAYS been done? We most likely wouldn't have many of the great things we have now. Would we have a single perfect linux distro? I think that is wishful thinking.
Just have a look at this: Linux Distro Timeline and tell me that none of those things should have happened. Maybe SOME of them shouldn't, but that's a simple determination in hindsight.
Just look at what Knoppix spawned, and what it inspired. Sometimes you have to let the ones passionate about something run with it. Otherwise, it's death-by-committee.
The biggest strength can also be the biggest downfall... so while complaining about all the multitude of distros, which is comically overwhelming, some really great things have come out of that process which I firmly believe wouldn't have happened with a single driving direction.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
> The 14.04 LTS I use in work cannot even have the latest version of VLC)
--You pick an LTS distro for *long-term stability*, not the latest versions of software. Things tend to break sometimes when you use the testing or unstable branches. I use 14.04-64-LTS myself, and it's pretty rock solid - but starting to show its age after 3 years. If I want newer versions of software, I put up a Vmware or Virtualbox VM and install Antix or MX (no systemd) or even go beyond my existing triple-boot setup if it really needs to run on bare metal.
--There are more choices than that (LMDE, Devuan, Fedora, SuSE, etc), but I tend to prefer Debian-derived package systems and something that can actually survive a dist-upgrade in-situ without reinstalling.
> I can download the latest version of VLC on Windows Vista, and it is the same .exe that Windows 10 uses
--Yep, and you have to deal with the in-OS spyware, rampant virus and malware/cryptoware infection risks along with it. We can all see how that's working out for the Ukraine.
--Snap packages show some promise, but since Ubuntu 16.04 was such a terrible experience for me I haven't looked into it yet. Dunno if they ported Snap back to 14.04, but they have backported rebootless kernel patching for it recently.
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== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
I'm curious: did you automate posting this and all the "me too" replies? Or do you post all messages still lovingly by hand?
"You pick an LTS distro for *long-term stability*, not the latest versions of software." Windows 7 allows me to have *long-term stability* and have the latest versions of software, which means it relieves me from having to go through the "to LTS or not to LTS" dilemma. From that perspective, the price of a Windows license is a bargain. I can stay with the old version for years till I am ready to upgrade and still have new software like VLC. And without having to experiment with VMs and whatnot. "Yep, and you have to deal with the in-OS spyware, rampant virus and malware/cryptoware infection risks along with it. " Because as we all know, Desktop Linux is magically immune to cryptoware (despite the fact apps have access by default to the user's home directory). Also, no viruses for me for a decade. I just don't mess with the factory settings for Update (as you should on Desktop Linux too) and don't download junk executables from dubious places (as you should on Desktop Linux too). Also, take off the tinfoil hat.