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EU Parliament Calls For Longer Lifetime For Products (eubusiness.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: Europe's Parliament called on the Commission, Member States and producers Tuesday to take measures to ensure consumers can enjoy durable, high-quality products that can be repaired and upgraded. At their plenary session in Strasbourg, MEPs said tangible goods and software should be easier to repair and update, and made a plea to tackle built-in obsolescence and make spare parts affordable. 77 per cent of EU consumers would rather repair their goods than buy new ones, according to a 2014 Eurobarometer survey, but they ultimately have to replace or discard them because they are discouraged by the cost of repairs and the level of service provided. "We must reinstate the reparability of all products put on the market," said Parliament's rapporteur Pascal Durand MEP: "We have to make sure that batteries are no longer glued into a product, but are screwed in so that we do not have to throw away a phone when the battery breaks down. We need to make sure that consumers are aware of how long the products last and how they can be repaired."

44 of 397 comments (clear)

  1. No problem! by Brett+Buck · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As long as people are willing to pay 2-3x the current cost, they can have a TV with replaceable parts and the infrastructure required to support it. Of course, many people won't be able to buy these products, but boy howdy, if they do, it will really be great.

    1. Re:No problem! by Rockoon · · Score: 2

      Its better than that. You can already repair almost everything simply by spending 2-3x its cost.

      Look at what it costs to fix a car now. Wait... you insurance company didnt pay to fix it? Yeah. its cheaper to just pay you the assessed value.

      See, it isnt just corporations making things less repairable or more expensive to repair, its also these government institutions ... like the one this article is covering.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:No problem! by Hentes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except that most of the time manufacturers actually go out of their way to make products less repairable. They don't use weird screws because they're cheaper, but to fuck with costumers. If everybody was using the same set of standardized parts, that would simplify both design and manufacturing, while mass production of said parts would push their cost down. This is exactly a case where regulation can be useful for breaking the prisoner's dilemma scenario and helping everybody. PCs didn't become unaffordably expensive just because they are built out of interchangeable parts, quite the opposite.

    3. Re:No problem! by JudgeFurious · · Score: 2

      Did you really just suggest that a building full of politicians seemed "pretty on-the-ball all the rest of the time"? And you said it about the EU? Am I missing the joke here or something?

      --
      Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
    4. Re:No problem! by JudgeFurious · · Score: 3, Funny

      Every time I change my costume there's always some weird screw I don't have the right tool to loosen getting in my way.

      --
      Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
    5. Re:No problem! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Engineers have been capable of building devices that are easier to repair all the time - but only when that's one of the goals. Built-in obsolescence has been a thing for decades. Desktop computers are a lot easier to diagnose and repair than the original PC. Laptops? Ha!

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    6. Re:No problem! by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The battery on $20,000 a car lasts, at best, about five years. It costs $150 to get a new one.

      If auto manufacturers made the batteries non-removable people wouldn't buy cars.

      The battery on a $800 phone lasts, at best, about 3 years. It costs $10 for a new battery.

      Why is it okay to hand-wave away the phone manufacturer's choice to glue these units closed?

      I'm putting my money where my mouth is here. I won't buy a phone that doesn't have a MicroSd slot and user-replaceable battery.

    7. Re:No problem! by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, wrong. Machines placing screws is a long ago solved problem. The last funny screw that was in any way mechanically better was the torx. The funky pentalobe and anti-tamper torx, etc are just the manufacturer being an asshole.

    8. Re:No problem! by kwbauer · · Score: 2

      Because gluing the halves together helps the whole thing going bad when it slips out a pocket into a puddle of water or when I get caught in a downpour?

    9. Re:No problem! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      Rather than speculating, you might want to look at what happened with a similar regulation on white goods. For the most part, these are made from components supplied by third parties and so the immediate knock-on effect was that dishwasher makers demanded long-term support for components from their suppliers. The suppliers turned around and said 'sure, but for a limited range'. This meant that almost all models of dishwasher are now built using a few standard components (including the electronics), which are guaranteed to be available for a long period. Because the component suppliers now have better economies of scale, the cost of manufacturing went down. Most manufacturers kept their prices the same, but a few dropped their price a lot to pass this on to consumers. The end result, for the consumer, is that dishwashers are cheaper and if they break down the parts are easier to obtain and cheaper. Sorry if this upsets your 'all regulation is bad' narrative.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    10. Re:No problem! by ctilsie242 · · Score: 2

      Torx screws actually have a purpose than being a new fastener. They don't cam out, unlike Phillips screws. Even the Philllips Screw Company offers Hex Stix, which are similar to Torx/hexilobe screws.

    11. Re:No problem! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Nobody solders new dram chips into dimms because ram has been cheaper than paper clips for years. It's not like back in the days of individual ram chips (not dimms) where 64k was $100 in 8 individual packages that you socketed into the board individually. (And when you had to desolder a cpu to replace it. Did that once).

      People want the right to fix things that can be fixed cheaply by swapping parts, and there's no reason why computers can't be designed to do that. Even a motherboard swap is cheaper than tossing the box, and many people would take that as an opportunity to do an in-place upgrade.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    12. Re:No problem! by Moof123 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not really 2-3x. The battery example cited is an easy one. A soldered/glued in battery is NOT 1/2 the cost of one that can be unscrewed or unsnapped. The trade off is a small increase in the thickness of the phone, or a small reduction in operating time if the form factor is kept constant.

      In a lot of ways we have a race to the bottom, where initial impressions matter a lot, so making a slimmer phone wins compared to a longer lifespan phone that is slightly thicker, or has a larger bezel, so all manufacturers ditch the removable battery or go out of business. Some companies go to bigger extremes, making the phones intentionally irreparable with funky screws (Apple), key locked fingerprint sensors (Apple), and fully glued together stuff (latest MS Surface).

      I would also add a mandate for required security updates for web enabled products until less than 10% of the shipped product is still operating in the field, and the same for keeping alive any servers needed to keep major functionality going. We have become awash in orphaned products that are still perfectly hardware functional but often lose support before they even finish shipping their last units.

    13. Re:No problem! by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 2

      The battery on $20,000 a car lasts, at best, about five years. It costs $150 to get a new one.

      If auto manufacturers made the batteries non-removable people wouldn't buy cars.

      The battery on a $800 phone lasts, at best, about 3 years. It costs $10 for a new battery.

      Why is it okay to hand-wave away the phone manufacturer's choice to glue these units closed?

      Because automobiles are a mature market with only minor changes over time, and someone will probably still be driving that same car 15 or 20 years after it was manufactured. The rate of change in smartphone technology thus far has meant that by the time the battery needs to be replaced the phone itself is looking rather obsolete. Phones with replaceable batteries used to be ubiquitous, but people rarely bought new batteries for old phones. Doing away with the extra size and weight required to support replaceable batteries was a perfectly logical decision based on market trends. Doing otherwise would be wasteful so long as consumers choose to upgrade their phones to the latest model every couple of years regardless of battery performance. Software support also tends to end around that same time, and the prevalence of closed-source drivers mean that devices lacking active support from the manufacturers cannot be updated to run the latest operating systems.

      If you want replaceable batteries to make sense you need to start by changing the upgrade cycle. That means designing apps and operating systems to work well on older devices, not just the latest flagship models, and encouraging the use of fully open source software stacks (especially the drivers) so that updates are not dependent on the original manufacturer's goodwill. Replacing the battery after three years makes sense only when a five- or six-year-old smartphone is actually considered usable.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    14. Re:No problem! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2

      I've never seen a power supply that costs 80% of the cost of a new computer, even with computer prices declining year-over-year. Also, I've always replaced power supplies with generic power supplies. No need to buy a specific model. Worse case scenario (pardon the pun) shove everything into a different case if you can't fit it into the original one. It's not like there aren't tons of cases hanging around.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    15. Re:No problem! by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 2

      Why does the lack of open source drivers mean old phones can't run new OS versions?

      New OS versions generally come with new versions of the kernel. Proprietary, binary-only drivers tend to only work with the particular version of the kernel they were built for. It is possible to upgrade other parts of the system, to a point, without changing the kernel, but the closed-source drivers act as a fixed point which the rest of the system has to work around, and you don't get the features and performance improvements included in more recent kernels. The older the drivers are the harder it is to bridge the gap between the OS version the drivers were designed for and the APIs expected by the latest software.

      To some extent this also impacts non-obsolete devices, and is part of the reason why my OnePlus 3T with the latest available OS update based on Android 7.1.1 still reports that it's running Linux 3.18—when the latest mainline stable version is 4.11. Linux 3.18 hasn't been current since the release of 3.19 on February 8, 2015. No doubt some bugfixes and security patches have been backported, but it's still missing most of the development which has occurred over the last 29 months, and the main reason for that is maintaining support for closed-source drivers. The need for specific kernel versions and the associated workarounds means that each device is its own fork of the OS with all the associated development overhead, which is unsustainable over the long term. Support for older devices has to be dropped as resources become strained. To support older devices indefinitely they need to be folded into the mainline development effort, which means no device-specific workarounds. You shouldn't need to download an image of "Cyanogenmod Nougat for the Galaxy S3"; there should be one version of Cyanogenmod with all the drivers which works on every brand of device, just as with the various Linux distributions for PCs. (Aside from compiling for different CPU architectures, of course, just like i386 vs. amd64.)

      Also, regardless of compatibility issues, if there is a problem with a proprietary driver and no open-source alternative there is very little anyone else can do about it if the manufacturer doesn't provide an update.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    16. Re:No problem! by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 2

      So naturally enough, we should look for help from the same bureaucrats who brought us RoHS.

    17. Re:No problem! by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 2

      He's clearly American - the idea that politicians actually try to do some good is completely foreign to Americans. In America all the politicians are owned by big corporations, and big corporations only care about making more profit.

      --
      There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
    18. Re:No problem! by jeremyp · · Score: 2

      The public has conflicting desires. The public desires flexibility and upgradeability (actually they don't, they want the remedy when it is broken or outdated to be cheap whatever that remedy is) but they also want sleek and light and powerful and portable and cheap.

      Everybody says they want easy repairability, but if that is the case, why is the iPhone with its non removable battery so successful?

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    19. Re:No problem! by volodymyrbiryuk · · Score: 2

      That's a good point if you talk abou consumer electronics but the law is more about major appliances like washing machines, fridges etc. It's unlikely that people want to buy the newest shiny washing machne every 2 years.

      --
      sudo rm -r -f --no-preserve-root /
  2. Damn I wish I was Born in Europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Being a US Citizen, I feel I am being dragged into some backwards Theocratic Police State where the common person has no rights, has no say and is there to serve solely as a profit center for the All Mighty Capitalists

    In the EU, they proactively look after the interests of their people and society
    Sure, they pay higher taxes and they ave plenty of downsides, but I find that far more acceptable than living in the US

    1. Re:Damn I wish I was Born in Europe by drGreg · · Score: 2

      Immigrate.

    2. Re:Damn I wish I was Born in Europe by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

      they proactively look after the interests of their people and society

      Who is "they" and why can't i look after my own (Self) Interests? Oh right, self important elitists know what is best for me, having never met me. Got it.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    3. Re:Damn I wish I was Born in Europe by epyT-R · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So get out. Your Radiant Socialist Future awaits, comrade.

    4. Re:Damn I wish I was Born in Europe by supernova87a · · Score: 2

      So, I assume you're happy to accept the unintended consequences of such well-intentioned regulation? Like, larger and less attractive phones because you're forcing manufacturers to make them user-repairable? A slower / less frequent update of hardware features you like, because designers are limited to making things that last for 10 years?

      Europeans seem to want all the good things about innovation / fast changes, without any of the possible downsides (which often they don't even realize what they're asking for).

  3. Re:And the corporations laughed.... by skids · · Score: 2

    The government needs to stay out of free market economics. Consumers have bleated incoherently

    FTFY

  4. Easy Solution by bjdevil66 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hit the manufacturers with a "life cycle tax" to cover the true cost of the ENTIRE life cycle of the product - including disposal in a landfill or the ocean.

    Pros: You'd be able to repair a lot of stuff because it'd be cheaper to sell. And the Great Pacific Garbage Patch(es) would stop growing pretty quick. McDonald's Happy Meal toys would either be made of wood or disappear altogether.

    Cons: Implementing it would be difficult - full of more regulations to comply with. And stuff would go way up in price. McDonald's Happy Meal toys would either be made of wood or disappear altogether.

    1. Re:Easy Solution by MountainLogic · · Score: 2

      This really is a very effective tool. As AmiMoJo also points out far above, There is no incentive to manufactures to not have planned obsolescence as they do not pay the disposal cost (externalized as AmiMoJo says). Manufacturers make money when they sell the product and their only cost is is making the product. In most places, currently, the customer (and the government and the environment) pays the disposal cost. A few US states have cost tacked onto some electronics products to pay disposal costs. Unfortunately, this is usually tacked on at the cash register so customers do include this in their considerations. If this were baked into the price at manufacture/import time and included in the sticker price then consumers cold make more informed decisions and manufacturers would have incentive to make their stuff last linger.

  5. The question they should have asked by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    77 per cent of EU consumers would rather repair their goods than buy new ones

    And what percentage would be willing to pay significantly more for those repairable products than they are paying now for the non-repairable versions?

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:The question they should have asked by olau · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How do you know that repairability is so much more expensive? For the products I've repaired, small design changes would make it much easier to do common repairs.

      It might also make them easier and faster to assemble in the first place. Some of the designs I've seen feel like the designer never actually worked with the thing.

    2. Re:The question they should have asked by sjames · · Score: 2

      In some cases, it is clear that the manufacturer spent many tens of thousands of dollars on making the product less repairable.

    3. Re:The question they should have asked by green1 · · Score: 2

      Most corporations seem to spend more time and money fighting repairability than they spend improving their product.

  6. Crap study relationship by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The study in question was in relation to major household waste management. 77% of respondents said they would "make an effort to get broken appliances repaired before buying new ones." {Emphasis Mine} It was a study about the home, food waste, plastic waste, and general appliances. I too would put every effort into getting a dishwasher repaired. I just drove my coffee machine to the other side of the city for that reason too.

    However I couldn't give two shits about my smartphone, tablet, or any other device with glued in batteries, or batteries in general. Most of these status symbols will be replaced while in a perfectly working condition. I applaud the idea behind the repairability rules, but if you don't back it with the right study you will not find the support you need to tackle this issue, an issue which manufacturers will fight.

  7. YES. by nightfire-unique · · Score: 2

    We have to make sure that batteries are no longer glued into a product, but are screwed in so that we do not have to throw away a phone when the battery breaks down.

    Excuse me ... ... something in my eye.

    Seriously my fingers are sore from typing almost this exact sentence over and over again. It's good to see someone of influence actually cares.

    --
    A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
  8. Agree in theory, but in practice is something else by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Being someone who spent a number of years repairing Other People's Broken Shit (and profited intellectually thereby, believe it or not; knowing how things break and how they could be made better is of great practical use), I appreciate and agree with the sentiment behind this from the EU, but as with so many things technological, the politicians in this case don't have an appreciation for the technical problems associated with it. Many of the devices they'd like to be repairable aren't manufactured in a way that makes them easily repairable in the first place. Much surface-mount component technology itself makes it almost impossible to diagnose problems down to the component level (BGA packaged integrated circuits especially). Then there's the cost associated with diagnosis and repair of a circuit board; in many cases it might cost more to do that than a new unit would cost. Changing the way things are manufactured to facilitate repair might not be possible, at least without going backwards, having devices that are larger and bulkier, so that repairs can even be made. As-is, some devices can be 'repaired' just by replacing an entire circuit board, which while it irks my sensibilities is the most cost-effective solution; defectives can either be recycled or repaired in bulk in a factory setting for much cheaper than as a one-off. Your smartphone, on the other hand, is more-or-less one circuit board to start with, is very densely packed with components, most/all of the VLSI ICs are BGA packages, and the PCB itself might not even survive the removal/replacement process, even if you can manage to diagnose the problem; there's no real way to make them repairable short of replacing entire assemblies, which in many cases might cost more than half of what a new smartphone costs. Many other portable devices are in the same boat. Appliances, vehicles, $LARGE_THINGS? There's little reason why they can't be made repairable, it's just company policies that prevent it (I'm looking at you John Deere). I'd hope that the EU is really going to target that class of 'device' than any other.

  9. Re:And the corporations laughed.... by Falos · · Score: 2

    >Consumers have spoken and prefer
    Uh, no, reduced sales at greater margin means exactly the opposite of that, but with more profits. The part that matters, far more than your illusions.

    Preference means shit.
    Profit means all.
    I'm not saying there's a solution, I'm not recommending regulation, I'm not even rebuking worship of the commercial altar, I'm just making sure we're all clear about a very old, very permanent reality:

    Consumers didn't do this, revenue did.

  10. Re:And the corporations laughed.... by Sique · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Free market economics only works if there is someone setting the rules and enforcing them. There is no free market without rules everyone has to adhere to. Without rules and their enforcement, the guy who can muster the most thugs and can amass the most guns and ammunition has a monopoly on everything.

    "The government needs to stay out of free market economics" means that someone has no idea under what conditions a free market works. For a free market to work it is necessary that the rules balance the power between the different actors on the market. One often overlooked problem is that normally, consumers know much less about the products they are buying than the manufacturers and the sellers. While consumers need many different products of very different product classes and need to have a very broad knowledge about virtually everything, manufacturers and sellers can specialize on their sector of the market and thus have a big informational advantage, which they leverage in contract negotiations. Many regulations thus are concerned with consumer protection and try to shift the balance of power away from the manufacturers and sellers which have to adhere to very strict rules to stop potential or real abuse of their negotiational power.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  11. Re:sign overheated economy cooling down by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Interesting
    It was Samuel Colt

    Colt's great contribution was to the use of interchangeable parts. Knowing that some gun parts were made by machine, he envisioned that all the parts on every Colt gun to be interchangeable and made by machine, later to be assembled by hand. His goal was the assembly line. This is shown in an 1836 letter that Colt wrote to his father in which he said,

    The first workman would receive two or three of the most important parts and would affix these and pass them on to the next who would add a part and pass the growing article on to another who would do the same, and so on until the complete arm is put together.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  12. and a pony! by ooloorie · · Score: 2

    Evert iPhone should come with a free pony! The EU demands it!

  13. Re:I agree with this by NettiWelho · · Score: 2

    the EU [..] will be around for a long, long time to come

    Not with these youth unemployment numbers.

  14. Re:BS by GNious · · Score: 2

    Just a reminder that if you're getting shite quality from Chinese manufaturers or ODMs, it's because that's what they've been told to make - they have no issues making quality products, and no qualms about making crap when requested.

  15. Re:Damn the EU is Stupid! by freeze128 · · Score: 2

    I don't think they meant that the battery should be designed like a light bulb, but rather that the battery should be secured in place using screws instead of glue.

  16. Re:Agree in theory, but in practice is something e by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If I break the screen on my iPhone given how it's built it's easier and less expensive(?) to go out and buy a new iPhone. If the battery stops holding the charge I need to get a new iPhone because the current one is glued in. The point is that the phones and other items like it should be manufactured so that if something goes wrong to a component like one of those then it should be easy to take the phone in to be repaired. It would be nice to be able to upgrade your storage after purchasing a phone but they aren't even calling for that.

    If there was something wrong with anything on the motherboard then you would just take out the board and replace it with an new one. Even that is a lot better than replacing the whole phone. But it's hard to do when manufacturers use special screws and slather glue everywhere.

  17. Re:sign overheated economy cooling down by kwbauer · · Score: 2

    Considering that Sam Colt died a year and a half before Henry Ford was born, i think we can safely assume that Ford probably borrowed his idea from Colt.