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Canada's Play For Immigrant Tech Talent (axios.com)
An anonymous reader shares an Axios report: When it comes to high-skilled immigration, the U.S.'s loss could be Canada's gain. Canada recently launched a Global Skills Strategy visa program to make it easier for its companies to bring in foreign workers with specific technology or business skills. The program allows firms to have a position pre-approved and get visas within two weeks -- a stark contrast to the months-long U.S. visa process. Why it matters: The Trump administration has moved to restrict the number of immigrants coming into the U.S. on work visas, which worries big tech and consulting firms that use the H-1B visa program to fill technical and specialized jobs. Canada's government is seizing the moment to provide an option for engineers, executives and other tech talent who may no longer qualify for an H-1B visa or who simply don't feel comfortable staying in the U.S. Open for business: Navdeep Bains, Canada's Minister of Innovation, told Axios that Canada wants to be open to ideas, open to trade, and "more importantly, we want to be open to people" in order for companies to grow. Bains stopped short of framing the program as a way to poach talent from Silicon Valley, instead saying that the government is "open to whatever region has talent."
Vancouver has the mildest climate. But no one can afford it.
That there really isn't that great an influx of useable and creative (key word creative) talent on these programs, but that it merely gets used to bring in cheap, lower quality labor to help drive down the prevailing wage.
You guys have fun with that.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Salary is; the salary gap from top tier city (e.g. Toronto) in Canada cannot compare with the likes of NYC or SF/SV. Salary gap is easily 30-50% with exchange rate, which makes it pretty hard to recruit when a candidate for literally makes 2x in US.
Barely living above poverty on a six-figure income, dreaming of the day you could actually afford to buy a house or save for retirement is a rather unique climate that is somehow justified with little more than Califuckinawesome weather...
I already do that on a five-figure income in Silicon Valley.
Hate to break it to you, but US poverty line income is five figures ($22,162 for a family of four with two children under 18).
Why? 70k a month ain't that bad. Or is that before tax?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Go live in Vancouver, then. They don't have winter there.
Great opportunity for all those Americans who want to get away from the current government to leave. Of course, they have to have a useful skill.
There is only one skill you will ever need to get any job anywhere in the world that you want:
You need the skill to be willing to work for less than anyone else who wants the job.
It's just like the two guys getting chased by a bear . . . you don't need to run faster than the bear . . . just faster than the other guy.
High Tech "bosses" lie like rugs when they claim that they want to attract high skill folks. All that they really want are cheaper "human" resources.
I say we haul those execs up in front of a Congressional investigative committee, and ask them, Big Tobacco Style, if they truly believe that cigarettes are healthy and non-addictive. In this case, ask them if they need to attract the best talent, or if they are just "bottom fishing"; trying to see have far they can push down IT wages.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Hate to break it to you, but US poverty line income is five figures ($22,162 for a family of four with two children under 18).
The poverty level in Silicon Valley and San Francisco is $100K per year for a family of four.
mcdonalds has 24 hour egg mcmuffins.
Ever have an Egg McMuffin and hashbrowns at 3:30am after a night out? It's almost as good as a poutine!
I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
The nation simply cannot support a wholesale migration of the U.S. technology sector - the threat is comparatively small.
except the value of labour itself goes down in the process.
I can't speak for everyone, but I have no problems with immigrants coming to Canada to work, but they should be paid just as well as Canadians would expect to be paid for the same job. So if the average Torontonian expects $100k/year but some person from India comes in and is happy with $50k/year, then we have a problem.
I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
Um, Canada is NOT only the great white north. Toronto is quite warm on average, especially recently. It's not as hot as California and we get snow 2-2.5 months out of the year on average (the ski business are not pleased), but given how hot California is likely to be this summer, that is a good thing. Toronto is tech central for Canada BUT...housing prices have been so crazy it's reflecting San Francisco. Good news on that though (unless you own property): Markham and Richmond Hill (2 neighbouring cities that people frequently commute to Toronto from) appear to have burst their real estate bubble (their housing prices were as expensive as Toronto) and inventory has been sitting as long as a month (and counting). So...that could be changing in 6-12 months. So maybe it IS a good time. Don't go to Vancouver: their living costs are higher and jobs pay less. The sweet spot for cost of living may be Montreal: 30% less than Toronto, not as many jobs that there are enough. You can live in Montreal and not speak any French (outside of Montreal is another story). They had major flooding this year (2k homes ruined, but are getting a 1.8 Billion cash infusion for repairs. That may boost things in jobs and it's close to New York. It may be a good time to check them out. Anyway, there are likely opportunities here and the tech world is very strong here. Check it out. I have 2 family members who went to San Fran and are leaving after being forced to live in Oakland due to insane prices for rent in San Fran. So back to New York for them. Maybe they too will consider Toronto or Montreal.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
We've been having fun with it for decades and decades. The key is to be welcome to them, embrace their culture and contributions, and they turn into great Canadians of their own volition.
"Old man yells at systemd"
The reason why we don't let any immigrant in to work is we want to protect American jobs. On average, most H1B1 visa holders get paid about 10% less than American workers. I suggest a simple solution. 10% foreign worker tax on employers.
3 Steps:
1) Offer a new visa that lets you work in America, but your employer must pay an additional 10% tax beyond all normal taxes. If the employer fails to pay this tax, it is treated as if they themselves cheated on their personal taxes.
2) These visas last for up to 7 months, and then you have to leave the country for at least 3 months before you apply again. You can't get one if you are sick or pregnant at the time of application.
3) These visas are unlimited. We would give out 500 million of them if that many people asked.
This solves most of the immigration problems. It lets employers hire people if they can't find Americans willing to do the job, but won't let foreigners take our jobs willy-nilly. It kills the industry supporting illegal immigration by removing their customers, negating the need for a fence, let alone a wall. It gives our country a nice extra boost of cash to pay for any additional expenses, or (more likely) reduce the deficit.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Yeah. This is just to drive wages down. There are a lot of unemployed engineers in Canada.
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ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Uuuuh, that is about HALF the salary for that area. You know who gets the other half? The outsourcing company.
Right now our problem in Canada is finding anyone skilled in certain areas, regardless of salaries. Decent data scientists, for example, are close to impossible to recruit. Despite very high salaries and benefits, enrolment in computer science was down, last i checked.
Even in non-tech, there is a labor shortage. Unemployment in Quebec is at the lowest since we record it, with all the boomers retiring. Ive talked with numerous factory managers that are looking to robotize, not to lower cost, but because they just cant find employees, regardless of compensation.
I know several tech people that have left Canada to work for companies like Google and Epic games and other big tech firms. Even if this program merely stems the flow or evens out the egress, it may be a win.
the question isn't, do immigrants help the economy?, but rather, Does any of that economic benefit trickle down to the 99%? Some of it does in the form of McJobs supporting the white collar immigrant workforce. But so far in America almost all of those gains have gone to the top 1%. That's not me being a libtard, it's a fact.In America widespread income inequality and a lack of social services makes immigration a raw deal. Your entire quality of life here depends on your job.
Canada's a bit different. They at least has single payer and a moderately functional safety net (albeit not one as robust as the Scandinavian countries AFAIK). They might see some benefit. It depends on whether their ruling class can exploit the divide between city & rural voters to cut those services like they did in America. They're definitely trying.
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"immigration tends to create more jobs than are taken."
Yes, but that doesn't benefit the residents of the country receiving immigrants.
There are more jobs because immigrants suppress wages. It's supply and demand. If you have people who are willing to supply their labor at a lower price, demand for labor increases. But the rest of us laborers are stuck on the same supply curve as the immigrants.
Since the vast majority of H1-B visas end up going to junior and mid-level people at best as opposed to the "highly skilled" pool of people that the system was ostensibly designed for, they're all yours Canada! Enjoy!
Earth is a single point of failure.
When Avro cancelled the Arrow and the AvroCar, Canada lost many talented engineers and the US got all these people to work in the space program. Talk to some old timer Canucks and they are still fuming over Diefenbaker.
mfwright@batnet.com
This simply is not true. There is no labor shortage, and in fact the very idea of a "labor shortage" is pure lunacy; it cannot exist. The only thing that can exist is a shortage of labor willing to work for the wages offered.
Despite very high salaries and benefits,
Wrong. Canada is infamous for paying peanuts for tech jobs. That's why so many Canadian tech workers move south of the border to work in the US, despite a much worse social safety net and much higher healthcare costs. Those worse conditions are much more than made up for when you can get double or triple the salary in the US than in Canada.
Ive talked with numerous factory managers that are looking to robotize, not to lower cost, but because they just cant find employees, regardless of compensation.
Again, that's bullshit. These employers aren't offering enough money, plain and simple. If they offer $10M per year, I guarantee they'll find someone. They just don't want to pay what it takes to find qualified people.
Yeah, the article and the summary seem to be anti-Trump, pro H1B, but I'm left scratching my head as to exactly who this is/ever was supposed to be good for. It's definitely good for the immigrants, because they have massively expanded employment opportunities. Is it good for Canadians? I guess it's good for the Canadians who own tech/engineering companies but aren't themselves much interested in tech/engineering and just want the money. Not so good for the Canadian techs/engineers who are suddenly competing with the entire world, strictly non-reciprocally. So I guess I'm supposed to be empathetic to the immigrants who have expanded job opportunities but not empathetic to the Canadians who have reduced job opportunities?
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
We'd enforce our immigration laws strictly and kick out illegal immigrants, instead of harboring 10-20 million illegals and dreaming up new ways to let them stay.
We'd give strong preference to immigrants and workers with high skills, instead of having a race- and family based immigration system.
We'd cut the Medicare/Medicaid budget in half, or alternatively, cover all Americans on the current Medicare/Medicaid budget.
How about it?
when it comes to integrating pieces of shit that don't want to integrate, are less intelligent than average, and have a higher propensity for committing violent crimes.
I don't think Canada's looking to import US white trash. We're waaaay over our quota on those.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
After you realize that most post-docs don't make so much, and are far more concerned with the sweet sweet reward of Single Payer National Healthcare that Canada has, you realize that, after they come to the US to get their PhD or Masters, they are going to Canada to work.
Sad.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Perhaps the same corrupt bonus culture that has dominated the US is now looking north.
It is sad that Canada wants to gut its middle class.
It should make for some interesting elections there.
In the US, the original intent of the H-1B visa was to be a safety valve to find and hire the most talented people you could find regardless of their current location. I actually know several people whose employers used it for this purpose. But, it has been shown that all the body shops use it to bring in cheap labor. The visa rules state that the minimum salary is $60K, and it never got adjusted for inflation. So, say you're a company in San Francisco and have to pay your IT staff $200K a year just to keep their heads above water. TCS or Infosys or Cognizant will come around and offer you 2 "qualified resources" for the same price, and you get to wash your hands of the IT department. It's not surprising they win outsourcing deals.
Hopefully Canada won't repeat the same mistake. I doubt it though -- there's no point in participating in politics unless you have millions of dollars to buy the laws you want. I'm sure all the big companies have purchased themselves nice loopholes similar to the ones we have. It's a shame too, because I would move to Toronto or Montreal in 2 seconds if I could find a good job.
hey bud, along the toronto-waterloo corridor there are three world class universities that teach a multitude of engineering subjects. We teach plenty of engineering and our engineers ARE having a hard time finding work. I am a recent graduate of university in Canada and many of my fellow students are having trouble finding work.
The problem is that Canada is refusing to learn from the united states and hoe the H1B visa's were used to drive wages down. It has already been happening and will continue to degrade even furthur.
Our largest problem up here is that our leader may be more socially adept in the eyes of the general public but yours is more intelligent. Ours cant even follow through on one of his main campaign promises (changing our electoral system)
This simply is not true. There is no labor shortage, and in fact the very idea of a "labor shortage" is pure lunacy; it cannot exist. The only thing that can exist is a shortage of labor willing to work for the wages offered.
That is bollocks.
From where should a high skilled developer come?
Hu? They are not there. Simple. That had nothing to do with wages.
Your particular company, can offer a super high wage to get some developer switch to you from another company.
Now the other company has an open job offer and can not find one.
The shortage is still there, only wages have increased, and only some other company is at the losing end.
To prevent labourer shortages you need to plan education better, as a country/ministry of education. Does the US even have a 'ministry of education'.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
>integrating pieces of shit that don't want to integrate
If you read the post above yours, you'd see that Canada really doesn't care if you want to integrate or not. So long as they don't commit crimes and don't cause problems, nobody cares what it is that your selection of culture wants of you.
>are less intelligent than average
That is doubtful, even if if they are, again, if they're not committing crimes, if they are earning a living, and don't cause problems, nobody cares in Canada.
>and have a higher propensity for committing violent crimes.
Canada has a long history of kicking immigrants out of the country for seriously breaking the law.
Maybe your country should try those ideas out and see how it works for you?
I know several tech people that have left Canada to work for companies like Google and Epic games and other big tech firms. Even if this program merely stems the flow or evens out the egress, it may be a win.
Most of the folks I know that have left Canada did it for higher wages and more opportunity. I suppose Canada can attempt to backfill with immigrants from other nations, but I suspect in the best case all it will do is create a "discount" Silicon Valley (similar to India, but which isn't 12.5 timezones away).
A better strategy would be for Canada figure out how to attract more investment money, not discount employees to prevent their current brain-drain (and might accelerate their current problems). Actual investment (and tax incentives) is how Canada advanced their movie industry. The Canadian movie industry was able to take significant business away from Hollywood. Canada didn't simply open the doors to discount actors and fast track immigration and hope for the best...
But hey, they are welcome to try it their way...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's about 300,000 code monkeys. I don't know about you but I'm not trying to compete with German rocket scientists I'm trying to compete with programmers from Indian diploma mills.
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and a fairly good one. Why not ask the Netherlands, France, UK, Germany, etc how socialism in the form of Single Payer works out for them? Or how about Australia, which our own president admits has a better healthcare system.
Venezuela is an economy in freefall because they have exactly one valuable commodity: oil. Oil is crap right now. Oil will recover and so will Venezuela. If they weren't being punished by right wingers and denied the kinds of aid countries like that used to get when they fell on hard times we wouldn't be having this conversation.
The 1% aren't masters of anything. Their Grand Daddies passed that wealth on. And they weren't masters either. Google "Survival Bias" sometime.
And your suggestion about being free is lovely until you need a heart stent. Do you have the slightest inkling about what life was like before modern civilization? The term is so broad I could spend hours explaining the wonders of plumbing, water treatment, medicine, food growing and food safety.
Again, you're just a troll. But it worries me that somebody who isn't might read your post and take it seriously. That's basically what got us in this mess in the first place.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I'd love to know what your definition of 'great Canadian' is.
My definition is the one who invented the escargot poutine I had in Ottowa.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
I find it fascinating that before SR71, the Arrow was fastest ever, Mach 3, imagine that in late fifties it was only 0.3 Mach slower than Blackbird. That's a whole story itself. I wonder if years from now someone will post of college professors, "they couldn't even talk about it they were still so angry after all these years of having to compete with 300,000 code monkeys."
mfwright@batnet.com