Getting Rid of Carpool Lanes Could Double Travel Times (sciencemag.org)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Science Magazine: Eliminating carpool lanes could almost double drivers' traveling times, according to a new study. The findings come thanks to an unusual decision made by the government of Jakarta last year. Following allegations that drugged babies from poor households were being used as "jockeys," or passengers for hire, Indonesian lawmakers repealed the so-called three-in-one restriction. The law had required cars driving on the business district's main roads to carry at least three passengers during rush hours. To determine the impact on the city's drivers, Benjamin Olken, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge, and colleagues queried Google Maps for real-time driving-speed data before and after the new policy went into effect. Following the policy lift, travel delays, defined as the time it takes to travel 1 kilometer, increased by 46% in the morning and almost 90% in the evening, the team reports today in Science. But the most startling result is that phasing out the three-in-one policy led to worse traffic during times of the day and on roads where there had never been restrictions in place, Olken says. One possible explanation, he says, is that the three-in-one restriction led fewer people to drive into the city. "Maybe they carpooled, took public transit, or worked from home."

Comments

False Scarcity

[FrankHaynes]

In the USA they take away "free" travel lanes, then sell them back to you as carpool/HOV/HOT lanes. This creates scarcity and increases congestion in the existing lanes and makes the relatively quicker toll lanes more appealing, which fills up the government coffers. Sweet little scam.

So it's doubtful that getting rid of toll lanes would increase congestion, rather it would restore highway capacity so traffic should flow better.

Re:False Scarcity

[bug_hunter]

Well, this is an article about how someone published a scientific paper about how removing carpool/HOV/HOT lanes increases congestion.

In fairness what's true in Jakarta may well not be true for America, but I think you have to give some more reasoning as to why the article is wrong.

Re:False Scarcity

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that that makes no sense at all. There's scarcity either way, HOV lanes don't normally exist in parts of the country/world where there's too much capacity. They're usually built in areas where they can't reasonably expand the capacity to meet demand. People who help reduce demand by using the free lane get a quicker commute and there's now fewer cars trying to use the same road.

It's also a convenient place to run the buses so that they don't get stuck in traffic. Around here we've even got transit pick up points in the middle of the freeway so that buses get right back on after picking up passengers.

Re:False Scarcity

[phantomfive]

In Silicon Valley there's a noticeable slowdown at 3:00 when the carpool lanes turn on.

Clearly there are two cases:
1) HOV lanes slow everyone down because not many people carpool
2) HOV lanes speed everyone up because they cause people to carpool

You should be able to calculate a crossover point, where the number of carpoolers is sufficient to overcome the loss of the lane. It's not just total carpoolers, it's the delta.

Re:False Scarcity

[Tjp($)pjT]

They created more accidents on I-405 on the Eastside. The collector / merge lanes cause dramatic speed changes in the high speed "normal" lanes as traffic enters and exits the tolled lanes. Even in periods tolls aren't charged. They have revised the enter and exit lanes twice now. Still not working. They took one carpool lane and made it two tolled lanes expanding the roadway while narrowing the existing lanes. Another safety bad move.

But the worst is that 30 percent of the tolls go to a private firm, out of state, that administers the tolling. The percentage of the fines collected is even greater. I believe 80% of the non-toll amount charged goes to the out of state company. The fees are contractually negotiated and there is no recourse in the conventional court system. The administrative (kangaroo) court is staffed by the employees of the out of state company. There is no appeal. Except suing the out of state company and the state as a party to the suit. So, commuters get more congestion than before, the richer folks get to single passenger trip in the HOV lanes, and because of the poor traffic flow design accidents are more common. And every time they change the flow it increases accident rates as people need to adjust.

The only thing I could think of that is worse would be if they closed lanes on I-90 to make them narrower across the floating, yes floating bridges, in order to accommodate an ill planned light rail system having tracks across a floating bridge! One train sunk in Lake Washington apparently wasn't enough. Now they want to put light rail over it. (in a market that mathematically can't benefit from light rail, has cost overruns due to mismanagement (like a warehouse of Canadian made cars they can't use because they don't meet US safety standards). And outright lies about cost and who they'd serve. For example Snohomish County was to have an endpoint in the light rail system. They don't. In fact every place served now is south from Seattle. Light rail is now scheduled to get to Everett by Phase 4 in 2050. They haven't been so good meeting dates specified. Yet they pay an onerous tax during vehicle registration for light rail. Yeah!

Re: False Scarcity

[Tjp($)pjT]

The Jakarta situation is all or nothing. No non-HOV traffic. In the Seattle area, particularly I-405 North, the enter and exit lanes cause more congestion and dramatic speed changes. They've increased accidents by a significant amount.

Re:False Scarcity

[blindseer]

I'm quite certain that what applies in Jakarta does not apply in the USA. For one there are far fewer people in the USA willing and able to drug their children to hire themselves out to fulfill a HOV lane requirement.

I say willing because people in the USA generally don't seem as desperate. I'm not saying they don't exist, just fewer. I say able because any drugs worth a damn are prescription only in the USA. Sure, you can get a Tylenol or something over the counter but if have anything more than a mild headache or upset tummy you need to get a prescription from a physician. Because people like to use over the counter drugs to make meth then you might get the good stuff for a while but repeated enough times and the person will be flagged. People showing up at a clinic or hospital to sedate their children will get reported quickly.

I'm sure the driver's behavior is moderated too by social mores.
How is it that you get to work early every morning, Bob?
Oh, I just stop at the drug store near my house and pick up some random woman and her sedated kid. They sit quietly while I drive and I drop them off on my way home, then I give her a few bucks. Easy really, you should try it.
I don't think that would go over that well in the USA. I'm amazed it works in Jakarta.

Re:False Scarcity

[drinkypoo]

Or how about the absurd theory that traffic increases in general around 3:00PM, which is why the carpool lanes turn on.

If you haven't been in the traffic in question, you might make that mistake, but the fact is that the slowdown happens not around 3, but at 3. Like clockwork. Because there's one less lane available for the bulk of traffic, that traffic has to move more slowly. The best answer would be meaningful public transportation, but the sili valley has never embraced such a communistic idea. There are some bus lines but most of them are useless to people who want to arrive places on time, but not spectacularly early.

Re:False Scarcity

[AvitarX]

NyQuil, Dramamine, benadryl can all out children to sleep.

Re:False Scarcity

[swb]

I'm pretty sure the signage, toll collection systems (FastPass, etc) and road modifications for carpool lanes cost way more than the revenue from tolls brings in. It's hardly a money maker.

It's also doubtful that the traffic would move appreciably faster if the toll lane was an ordinary traffic lane. Usually these systems are implemented at some point where traffic levels have exceeded roadway capacity, so you were already going slow.

In fact, the larger problem is that demand exceeds supply at the price offered. To cut demand you have to raise the price.

Re:False Scarcity

[danbert8]

In rare cases, the citizens don't put up with that bullshit. GA-400 in Atlanta used to be a toll road inside the perimeter but they actually removed the toll and demolished the toll booths. And in many cases, they are adding toll lanes funded by tolls and not removing a previously existing travel lane to do it.

Re:False Scarcity

[danbert8]

Apparently you don't have variable toll rates on your express lanes. In Atlanta, there are express lanes going up that have variable rates that are determined by monitoring the express lane speeds. If the express lane starts to slow, the tolls go up. They vary from a few pennies when there is no traffic to tens of dollars in rare cases.

Re:False Scarcity

[blindseer]

NyQuil, Dramamine, benadryl can all out children to sleep.

I have no doubt but:
1) I checked the labels of the allergy meds I have in my cupboard and looked at child dosages, I saw variations on "Do not use" or "Ask a physician".
2) Assuming you can get someone to write a prescription I would imagine using this in a not as prescribed manner, getting the kid to sleep in a car during the day as opposed to sleeping in a bed at night, is child abuse.
3) Without a prescription or trained medical supervision this is dangerous as hell, people have gone to prison for pulling stunts like this.
4) Isn't it a bit creepy and/or desperate to hire a woman with a sedated child to get around the carpool laws?
5) I'm pretty sure I don't want to know but, how do you know this? No, wait, don't answer, I'm absolutely sure I don't want to know.

Re:False Scarcity

[dfm3]

I don't think that's quite right. Do you know of a city in the USA where the number of free travel lanes on an interstate has been reduced to accommodate HOT lanes? The ones I'm familiar with, the HOT lanes were added onto the shoulder or median. The northwest corridor project in Atlanta, for example, the new lanes are being built above the existing travel lanes on a causeway. IIRC there is even a federal law that prevents any more existing interstate lanes from being converted to toll.

Re:False Scarcity

[kenh]

The entire roadway was HOV, less than three passengers and you are forbidden to travel on that road.

The article is not about a single lane of the road being HOV...

Re:False Scarcity

[AvitarX]

1) Of course, nobody was saying it's good, in fact it's the whole reason they closed the access in the article. It's a terrible thing to do, but there is no difficulty to it
2) They're all over the counter, and agreed
3) as they should
4) it's more than a bit creepy I'd say.
5) Because I've taken benadryl and NyQuil, and my sister used to need Dramamine when we traveled (for its intended purpose)

I'm not endorsing their use for this situation, simply saying the idea that we can only get pepto or tylonal OTC is kinda crazy. Caugh medicine for example will mess one up.

Re:False Scarcity

[clodney]

It's a cash cow. Tolls never go away despite what you've may have read. They go on forever as maintenance costs and to fund the next "big project". So once a toll, always a toll.

The worst are dynamic metering based tolls. If there's a wreck on a major road in some states, the toll/hov section instantly jacks up the price until enough people stay in the parking lot until that flipped over 18 wheeler is shoved off of it.

It is hardly a cash cow. Toll roads rarely make money when debt service is taken into account. They cover their operating expenses, but have trouble recouping construction costs.

Dynamic tolls are the only ones that make sense if you want to use a free market perspective. When the toll road is more desirable you jack up the price so that it maintains value to the people willing to pay the price. Otherwise you get the scenario of people paying to use a toll lane that isn't moving faster than the non-toll lane.

But that is not to say that people are happy to pay market based pricing. Same thing as Uber getting raged at for cranking up rates in times of high demand.

Re:False Scarcity

[swb]

That's how demand pricing works and that's how it works here, too.

As demand increases, the price is supposed to increase to cut demand. The higher prices should force people for whom the additional dollars aren't worth the additional speed to not use the express lane.

Knowing what I do about Atlanta roads, my guess is the congestion is so bad that the price ceiling for a lot of drivers is very high and they are willing to pay a large sum to stay in that lane.

There's also the question of casual users. In Minnesota, there's no user fee to participate in the FastPass program. I have a FastPass but seldom use the lanes, so my long-term cost is pretty low over time. But when I do use it, I generally disregard the spot price of using it as it doesn't really affect my long-term costs and I judge it worth the $10 or $20 (although I have seldom seen the price get that high).

If the system is free to use, then casual users may be more inclined to accept high occasional fees, undermining the effectiveness of demand pricing.

Re:False Scarcity

[eepok]

You're mixing terms but not 100% correct. Carpool/HOV lanes are rarely toll lanes so they're not sold back to you. They're restricted lanes for vehicles with 2+ or 3+ people in the vehicles. In all reality, if you gain a carpool partner, chances are that that person is sharing the cost of the commute and parking with you and thus you're obviously saving money.

However, you are correct in the effort to create artificial scarcity. And that's not hidden. The goal of a carpool lane is not necessarily to benefit those who would already carpool without one, but to entice those who are not carpooling to do so. The fewer drive-alone commuters on the road, the less congestion there is and everyone moves faster, pollutes less, and lives happier.

Re:False Scarcity

[Chris Mattern]

In the USA they take away "free" travel lanes, then sell them back to you as carpool/HOV/HOT lanes. This creates scarcity and increases congestion in the existing lanes

Evidence, please. It is quite possible that the carpooling encouraged by this reduces the overall traffic so that the non-HOV lanes, while more congested than the HOV lanes, are less congested than they would be if there were no HOV lanes.

So it's doubtful that getting rid of toll lanes would increase congestion, rather it would restore highway capacity so traffic should flow better.

I find it quite plausible that HOV lanes would help. We have study here that confirms that. What do you have?

Re:False Scarcity

[syn3rg]

The HOT lanes in the I-85 NE Atlanta corridor were originally HOV lanes, that were then re-tasked as pay-to-drive lanes.

Re:Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[PPH]

That was just the Mercer Island private lane anyway. The Seattle to Eastside commute volume reversed decades ago. But the DOT never had the guts to reverse the lane to match actual use.

How is this a surprise?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you have a lane that has a forced capacity of 3 travellers. You remove this limit and people are not forced to travel together and at the same time. The expected result would be more traffic over a broader period therefore increasing congestion and travel times.

Re:How is this a surprise?

[kenh]

So you have an entire roadway that has a forced capacity of 3 travellers. You remove this limit and people are not forced to travel together and at the same time. The expected result would be more traffic over a broader period therefore increasing congestion and travel times.

FTFY

Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[Tiggywinkle]

Its possible that Braess's Paradox is to blame here also?

In a nutshell, it can be that if people are given too much license to make "selfish' decisions, it can actually increase travel times across the system. (E.g. if people keep changing lanes to get ahead but cause others to slow down resulting in a net negative to the system).

There are examples of this occuring when new "improvements" to motorways added to a system actually caused traffic delays, which only went away when the new road was closed.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[Zaelath]

Read the summary again, it's not a carpool lane, it's ALL traffic.

Whoever wrote the article needs a kick in the crotch.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[netlag1]

I RTFA and it does say it wasn't carpool lanes that were removed... 3 passengers were required to use the road at all.

So if you remove the 3-passenger requirement, capacity will not change but usage will increase, so of course it will slow down. If you change a carpool lane into a regular lane, capacity will increase, and depending on how much usage increases traffic can speed up or slow down.

Read the summary again, it's not a carpool lane, it's ALL traffic.

Whoever wrote the article needs a kick in the crotch.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[Zaelath]

Yes, we're in furious agreement... excepting that the article title and first paragraph both misrepresent the study.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[Tiggywinkle]

Ah yes, my mistake, teach me not to read the article. I must confess, I was scratching my head trying to work out exactly what had changed while I was reading the summary, and clearly I took the wrong path somewhere...

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[drinkypoo]

In a nutshell, it can be that if people are given too much license to make "selfish' decisions, it can actually increase travel times across the system. (E.g. if people keep changing lanes to get ahead but cause others to slow down resulting in a net negative to the system).

You forgot the chucklefucks who don't know what lane they're supposed to be in who create the inducement to others to change lanes to try to get ahead. That's the first selfish decision in that chain.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[swb]

The passing lane concept breaks down in many urban areas which have freeways with road splits, left exits, lane shifts -- and traffic volumes high enough that it makes sense to fill all the lanes and not leave one empty for passing only use.

On more than one occasion I've seen the "relentless lane changer" successfully weave their way through traffic only to find myself right behind them at some traffic light at the highway exit. They've managed to get 2 minutes ahead just to wind up 0 minutes ahead near the terminus of their commute.

And then there's the relentless physics of t=d/v. Commuting 15 miles at 70 mph saves you a whopping 3.5 minutes over 55 mph. That may be meaningful to somebody, but at a bare minimum the stress of "battling" traffic with relentless lane changes hardly seems worth the 3.5 minute time gain, especially if its erased at an exit ramp traffic light with a 3-5 minute wait.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[drinkypoo]

The passing lane concept breaks down in many urban areas which have freeways with road splits, left exits, lane shifts -- and traffic volumes high enough that it makes sense to fill all the lanes and not leave one empty for passing only use.

It doesn't have to be left empty, the rule is that if you're not passing, you get out of it. Somewhere up ahead, there's always someone not following that rule. The two types that really steam my clams are the people who slow down to pass, and the people who are afraid of Jersey barriers that crop up around construction sites. That stuff isn't in their lane, but they're afraid of it anyway, because they know they can't stay in their lane... in which case, they should slow down, and pull over to a lane which is further towards the slow side of the roadway, because they clearly have no business in the fast lane.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[danbert8]

It's not the speeds that are important to commute times, it's the following distance. And the following distance also causes the weaving. There is a small subset of poor drivers that leave ridiculous gaps in traffic as they "aren't in a hurry" to catch up to the pack in front of them. Except they are just wasting the space of cars (sometimes dozens of cars worth of space) forcing the traffic jam to extend backward faster. In traffic, you have to pack in tightly to maximize the flow rate of the road. I recall a study where the optimum flow is achieved when drivers attempt to keep the gap in front of them and behind them equal. So if someone is tailgating you and you have 6 car lengths in front of you, close that gap!

Even worse are the drivers where when traffic clears, they have some sort of resistance to GO. They rubberneck passing the accident (or debris, or whatever) and it will take them a full mile to get back up to the speed limit. Once you pass the blockage, use that pedal on the right and get moving to allow the people behind you to get moving.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[swb]

Still, you can't avoid the problem that during periods of congestion all the lanes end up full. Keeping one lane mostly empty wouldn't seem to accomplish much but reduce total capacity and push congestion back.

And it does nothing for situations where the entire freeway splits in two to go different directions, in many cases if you're not in that half of the freeway a half-mile or more before the split, you're not easily getting into that half.

I will say that the passing lane concept should be followed fairly religiously on rural portions of the highway where congestion isn't an issue. It's urban areas with dubious designs and high congestion where it seems problematic.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[swb]

The problem around here seems to be that a safe stopping distance between you and the car in front of you is invitation to a weaver to change lanes, and usually results in an unsafe following distance, requiring everyone to slow down.

IMHO, you shouldn't change lanes unless the gap you're merging into is some multiple of the safe following distance of the cars you're merging between. This prevents the rear car from braking to slow down to re-create the safe following distance.

I also think that safe following distances create buffers that reduce the need for braking to maintain following distances. If all you have to do is slow slightly (ie, reduce accelerator pressure) without braking, it seems to create less chain reaction braking.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[drinkypoo]

The problem around here seems to be that a safe stopping distance between you and the car in front of you is invitation to a weaver to change lanes, and usually results in an unsafe following distance, requiring everyone to slow down.

The root problem that causes that problem is, you guessed it, people who don't belong in the passing lane being in the passing lane. They don't seem to comprehend that if their pulling out causes someone else who is attempting to pass to have to slow down that they are fucking up. If they would just stay out of the way of people who want to go faster, then the highway's capacity would increase significantly. Of course, that means some people would be stuck behind a truck for the entirety of their journey, but fuck 'em. If they can't pass without inconveniencing someone else, then they don't need to pass. They need to get comfortable where they are, or they need to get a car with more passing ability.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[swb]

I watch this. Every. Single. Day. And the person who wants to pass never gets very far, not because some slow driver is in their way, but because the traffic is beyond the road capacity. Passing one arbitrary slower driver simply presents them with another driver in front of them, probably who wants to go as fast or faster than they do, ad infinitum.

The traffic level is simply beyond the capacity of *both* lanes. You couldn't maintain the "passing" lane free for passing because if it was empty enough to pass, people would do just that -- pass, and keep passing without merging back. And technically they would have an argument for staying in that lane because they would indeed be passing all the traffic in the right lane. The net result is you'd eventually have done what happens organically, filled both lanes to the road's capacity to carry them.

There's only a passing lane to the extent that the roadway can carry all the cars in the right lane(s) without slowing down. Once the right lane slows beyond some level, people do start passing, eventually half of them -- until the roadway is full.

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[sexconker]

t=d/v

r * t = d

If v is zero, your equation results in an undefined value.
Further, there's the distinction between rate and velocity (which is a vector). See also distance vs. displacement (and how they both start with a d).

Re:Braess' paradox Another possible reason

[danbert8]

If all they did was slow slightly, that might be true. The drivers with excessive following distances also tend to over brake causing a lot of the problems... They are also slow to accelerate when traffic frees up. They are just timid drivers that don't feel comfortable in traffic and they cause most of what they fear.

The number one thing I yell in traffic is "Why are you braking?" It just seems to be the default response to any event for most drivers.

Re:There is only one logical conclusion.

[Zaelath]

The thing is, that was the case. The title misleads people into thinking there was just "another lane" which required 3+ people in the car, it was all of them.

Cure worse than disease

[blindseer]

So they implement a policy that cars must have passengers to use main roads. So people "hire" (that word used in the articles) passengers to get around the law. Since screaming kids is not something people are willing to pay for the kids are drugged to stay quiet.

So, they can choose seeing kids drugged or they can choose longer commutes. They chose longer commutes.

Who was it that said for every problem there is a fix that is easy, simple, and wrong? I believe that applies here.

Re:Cure worse than disease

[Zaelath]

Yup. What they should do is just do an odds and evens system.

Rich people can have 2 cars and drive every day, most people can carpool with a neighbour.

Then you can just have plate scanning cameras issuing the fines.

Re:Cure worse than disease

[blindseer]

That sounds like another fix that is easy, simple, and wrong.

Re:Cure worse than disease

[tepples]

most people can carpool with a neighbour.

Only if A. they work at the same place and at the same time and shop at the same place and at the same time, and B. they weren't issued plates whose last digits are the same modulo 2.

Re:Cure worse than disease

[Zaelath]

Agreed, however I'd expect a rule that allowed changing your number plate every few months or so would make that part work.

As to same place, same time; meh, only has to be within a margin to be acceptable. For location differences: I drop you 20 mins early if we start at the same time and I have to also get to work afterwards, and I pick you up 20 mins late. For time differences: same really, and when you're absolutely forced, you can find someone to pool with when the alternative is a long public transport trip.

Re:Cure worse than disease

[Zaelath]

Sure, there's some technicalities to work out, but it's a lot better than 3 in 1. You could offer an alternative or any explanation of why it's wrong. Or just make blind assertions I guess.

Re:Cure worse than disease

[tepples]

For location differences: I drop you 20 mins early if we start at the same time and I have to also get to work afterwards, and I pick you up 20 mins late.

But if the road is HOV-only, as in the former case of the road described in this article how do you legally even get from the drop-off point to where you actually work?

Re:Cure worse than disease

[Zaelath]

I was proposing switching HOV-only for odds and evens. I can still get to work after I drop someone off, or vice versa.

Demand based lanes

[HockeyPuck]

In California they have carpool lanes that have variable pricing depending on the time of day and the congestion on the road at that time. Similar and probably the inspiration for Uber's "Surge Pricing".

That's one way to look at it

[rsilvergun]

another way is that toll roads exist to force the poor to use slower, crappier modes of transit. Hell, our entire car based society exists for that. We all suffer through wars, air pollution and an overall lower standard of living save for a few so well off they can stand above it. And most of them still spend 90 minutes a day commuting. And even if we ignore all that toll lanes are still a regressive tax, disproportionately hurting lower wage earners for whom the tolls represent a larger percentage of their income.

Oh, and can you at least RTFS? The entire point of the article is that they found getting rid of HOV lanes increased congestion. Even in a system where the majority of folks were abusing the system (Jakarta). I suppose you might have a point about toll lanes, but that's not what anyone was talking about.

Re:That's one way to look at it

[AmiMoJo]

Why can't the poor just use the "high occupancy" option? I thought that just meant >1 person in the car, which makes sense if you are poor because it's cheaper than two people driving two separate cars to work.

Re:That's one way to look at it

[tepples]

When all lanes are HOV-only (read the article), carpooling works only if both people live in the same place and work in the same place. When a person drives alone to pick up the person who carpools with him, he violates carpool law. When a person drives alone after having dropped off the person who carpools with him, he violates carpool law. Or should people instead choose a roommate based on having the same place of employment?

Re:That's one way to look at it

[spitzak]

The poor are more likely to have jobs they have to arrive at time at, making it harder for one of them to take a detour to pick up another one. I have carpooled but I would not be considered the lower class, and I can certainly see how this would be far more difficult if my time for travel was limited.

It's not a cash cow, it's a tax dodge

[rsilvergun]

for the well to do. Tolls, like sales tax, are a regressive taxation. They're meant to let the rich have services but put most of the cost of those services on the working class. They didn't get rich by spending money ya know.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Tjp($)pjT]

Well, as a dirt poor these last few years motorcyclist who has other dirt poor motorcyclists as friends, I can say categorically that daily commuters on motorcycles in the greater Seattle area do that because its cheaper or gets them to work faster than a car. I work from home just now for a very underfunded startup, but previously I commuted year round (save a few snow days that happen here) by motorcycle. If I had mod points I'd mod you up as humorous. The reason motorcycle use the HOV lanes is justified by their very good gas mileage, safety from fewer vehicles in the lane, and air-cooled motorcycles break down in prolonged stop and go traffic.

Also car drivers need to open their eyes and see motorcyclists. The vast majority of motorcycle accidents are cars hitting a motorcycle. It is as if people would not see a large crib with lights on all the time in the road. Or a pallet of cinder blocks with taillights and headlight(s) on all the time. Car drivers fail to drive defensively. And yes some small number of motorcyclists have apparent death wishes. But not as many as cars driving in and out of traffic at rush hour. I have my little french fry transponder but I'm on my third. heat and 60MPH peel them off the plastic headlight cover. So charging a motorcycle will not go over well with me.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Tjp($)pjT]

That's why State Route 167 has HOT lanes not HOV lanes.

Traffic is the least of your worries...

[s1d3track3D]

Following allegations that drugged babies from poor households were being used as "jockeys," or passengers for hire

Holy crap, if this is true I would think that congestion traffic is the least of your worries...

Re:Traffic is the least of your worries...

[blindseer]

Following allegations that drugged babies from poor households were being used as "jockeys," or passengers for hire

Holy crap, if this is true I would think that congestion traffic is the least of your worries...

I'm surprised that isn't getting more discussion here. Did people miss that or is it that people don't think that is a problem?

Then again, I don't want to know the answer. I'll just believe what I want to believe.

Re:Traffic is the least of your worries...

[Opportunist]

Why this isn't discussed here? Consider: What would the average /. reader be more likely to encounter in his life?

Contested traffic
or
Children

Re:Traffic is the least of your worries...

[kenh]

(i.e. people being paid to be passengers, so drivers can get over the limit to be able to use carpool lanes)

Except these aren't "carpool lanes", they are carpool ROADS - you couldn't drive on the road unless you had two other passengers along for the ride.

Re:Traffic is the least of your worries...

[sexconker]

I avoid both as much as possible.

Good to see another place reject chaika lanes.

[sethstorm]

Sounds like the study's author is a bit too chummy with HOT/HOV lanes.

Re:Good to see another place reject chaika lanes.

[thegarbz]

Good to see that everything is now worse for everyone?

Some people just want to watch the world burn.

Re:Good to see another place reject chaika lanes.

[stdarg]

It's not necessarily worse for everyone. In the article, the author speculates that more people are able to go to the city now.

Re:Good to see another place reject chaika lanes.

[thegarbz]

Not at all. The author only speculated that while the system was in place fewer people may have driven into the city. He also offers alternatives for how people used to get into the city before.

Re:Good to see another place reject chaika lanes.

[stdarg]

Sorry, that's right. Possibly more people are able to DRIVE to the city now, not GO in the general sense.

I'm not sure how you get "not at all" though. It's still an improvement for the hypothetical person who used to take a bus for 2 hours, versus driving directly now, even with increased traffic, for 1 hour. I mean there is a reason that person is taking a car instead of still taking the bus, right?

Or they'd have sanity and kill the idea.

[sethstorm]

Toll lanes have no place in a city, especially ones with mixed income.

Which reflects CalTrans' lack of sanity.

[sethstorm]

Unless you're well-heeled, they want you to suffer.

Re:Which reflects CalTrans' lack of sanity.

[kenh]

Unless you're well-heeled, they want you to suffer.

Or, they want to recoup the investment in adding the lanes to the road...

Re:Which reflects CalTrans' lack of sanity.

[sethstorm]

Given that California's going off the deep end in debt, they're not going to be able to do that.

They'll just settle for taking the wallet and leaving you the leather.

Then they're just too far in the toll road camp.

[sethstorm]

Remove the shackles on the roads, add more lanes, and end the complaints.

No need to make the roads a place for the well-heeled.

One more reason to kill off toll lanes.

[sethstorm]

They're about people that hate regular people having cars, or love unchecked revenue enhancement.

So the pro-toll camp rigged a study.

[sethstorm]

Even if the allegation were true, the increased freedom and reduced abuse is worth more than the supposed "reduction".

Re:So the pro-toll camp rigged a study.

[Argos]

"Yes, the asteroid will wipe the Earth, but the tax to fund the mission to deflect it is an intolerable abuse."

Re:So the pro-toll camp rigged a study.

[sethstorm]

A cataclysmic event does not equate to everyday traffic.

Re:So the pro-toll camp rigged a study.

[Opportunist]

You're not used to Los Angeles traffic, I see.

Re:So the pro-toll camp rigged a study.

[sethstorm]

Been there, wondered what kind of drugs CalTrans engineers were on.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Especially since everyone knows that most people who ride motorcycles are members of so-called "Motorcycle Clubs," which are really just gangs. And these scum gang members are transporting drugs on their motorcycles.

That's why they want to use HOV lanes in the first place, to transport drugs faster. Faster = more money. Running motorcycles off the road and/or broad siding them with your car is your patriotic duty as an American to help the great War on Drugs.

So for all the freedom loving TRUE Americans, carry on ridding our roads of drug dealing biker scum. #MAGA #TRUMP 2020 #USA!USA!USA!

Re:Not true for San Francisco Bay Area

[Boronx]

Jakarta had it right. A single lane isn't a good enough incentive to carpool, but making all lanes HOV would do it.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[thegarbz]

While I agree in general it's hard to put the blame solely at drivers inability to "see a pallet of cinderblocks".

Firstly those pallets are much larger than any motorcycle.
Secondly motorcycles fit in blind spots even with properly adjusted mirrors where small cars would not.

From a behavioral side:
I have only once seen a motorbike move with traffic rather than overtake, move faster, or (if the traffic is slow) lanesplit. And that one motorbike was a Harley too big to lanesplit. This is an expectational piece. When I drive I generally keep a view out and know the relative positions of cars around me, but baring a few idiot car drivers (okay a lot of idiot car drivers) motorcyclists are somewhat of a wildcard, they suddenly appear and then disappear soon after.

I can't blame them really, I'd be doing the same thing if I were small enough to fit in between traffic, but in general even the well behaved ones are hard to predict, and the vast majority of accidents involving cars and motorbikes involve merging into them due to the above issues. That is followed not too closely by being rear-ended by them (i.e. cutting them off because they have a far worse stopping ability.)

why call it 'carpooling'?

[0111 1110]

The thing I don't understand is that they aren't really carpool lanes. They are party car lanes. If you bring extra bodies you go faster. So you get people trying to convince their friends and family to go with them instead of going alone. The additional weight in the vehicle burns more gas but you get where you want to go faster so it's probably worth it even to poor Indonesians. Still it must waste and burn a lot of extra fuel.

The whole idea of carpooling is kind of ridiculous. Most neighbors don't have the same travel destination at the same time. That is not our world. Carpooling is not a solution to anything and certainly won't help solve traffic problems. An easy fix to traffic problems in places like Indonesia is just to ban cars at peak times. Only allow motorcycles and buses. Actually turning some lanes into motorcycle only lanes could be a middle ground.

Re:why call it 'carpooling'?

[Opportunist]

Yes, that's what Jakarta needs: More motorcycles and the horrible accidents that come with them.

And before someone answers, this is more a statement about the way people drive in Indonesia than motorcycles. I love my bike. But I'm not suicidal enough that I'd drive it there.

Re:why call it 'carpooling'?

[ghoul]

Traffic in Jakarta is so sow that I highly doubt any accident is fatal.

Re:why call it 'carpooling'?

[kenh]

The additional weight in the vehicle burns more gas but you get where you want to go faster so it's probably worth it even to poor Indonesians.

Run the numbers, the math is straight-forward.

If one person in a car travelling a certain distance consumes "x" amount of gasoline, will three people in one car travelling the same distance consume 3x the amount of gasoline or some amount less? Common sense tells us less, and that saved fuel, which in turn results in less greenhouse gasses being generated is the motivation for car pool lanes. Faster travel time is the incentive to car pool.

EXCEPT this story isn't about car pool LANES, it is about car pool ROADS, where you were prohibited from driving on the road with fewer than three passengers in the car.

Re:why call it 'carpooling'?

[Opportunist]

The speed of the car running you over isn't the deciding factor concerning your survival chances when you fall off your bike.

Re:why call it 'carpooling'?

[stdarg]

This is actually an area where a little bit more government involvement could be beneficial. It seems like the only way to make it work would be if more facilities were provided to carpoolers, such as free parking lots where riders could connect. It would be kind of like a bus station without the buses.

Re:why call it 'carpooling'?

[orlanz]

Riding with neighbors and friends isn't how carpooling works anywhere. Usually for routine travel where the majority of the distance is the same, a bunch of random people meet/pick up at certain points and journey together. They come from close enough places and go to close enough destinations. Its a personal & predictable ride share.

Another form of this has actually been quite common for decades in most developing countries. There are "shared" taxis with extra seats that pick up and drop off people at various destinations. Like mini-buses. With cars becoming relatively common over the last two decades, people don't need to waste time hunting down shared taxis for routine trips.

My local city has a well funded ridesharing program. They provide free parking 15 miles outside the city, allow HOV usage, and companies provide vans for the trips. The passengers pay $100/person to the van company, form groups via a website, and meet up at places of their choosing. The van company gets ~$800 per month, each rider gets driven to work, and the designated driver pays less than the others. Gas is pumped by the driver and reimbursed by company.

Re:why call it 'carpooling'?

[Altrag]

Generally you wouldn't be carpooling with your next door neighbor. Typically, at least in concept, you'd be carpooling with a coworker or someone from a nearby business who lives in the same general direction as you even if they're a couple miles away. Or better yet, many such someones.

The idea being that the time spent running around picking up all those people is comparable to or lower than the amount of time spent idling in traffic on the "high"way, and of course for the last person on the pickup route, it will be significantly faster. Similarly, while that one car may be using more fuel to do all the running around, at the same time its saving an entire additional car's worth of fuel (or possibly 2+ cars' worth) if you have multiple passengers in your carpool.

It seems that most people (or at least most Western people at least -- can't speak for other parts of the world) tend to put themselves in the mind of the driver who has to put in extra time and fuel and think its a horrible idea -- they rarely seem to consider the viewpoint of the passengers. And of course in a well-conceived carpool, the driver would rotate so that its not always a single person getting the shaft and everyone gets equal share of the beneficial days (which again, improve with larger carpools as the "driving" days would be divided even further.)

Or alternatively if all of the carpool members are within a few blocks of a straight shot, the furthest out guy could stop and make pickups with only a minor inconvenience to himself, potentially well made up for by being able to use the HOV lanes and such, even though he's always the driver.

Now if you work in an office with like 3 people who are all on different ends of the city, and you don't like talking to anyone outside your office.. well sure, carpooling probably isn't going to work for you. But even if that's a large majority of the population there's always things local authorities can do (whether governmental or NGO) such as setting up carpool groups where you can find other folk in your area that you otherwise wouldn't have met and so forth.

Of course I don't know Jakarta's conditions specifically or why drivers decided that drugging children was a better approach than looking for people to legitimately carpool with, but we can't really take one city's problems as a guide for the rest of the world without some deep thought into the problems they're facing compared to the problems elsewhere.

Re:why call it 'carpooling'?

[demonlapin]

Carpooling really only works for school. Everyone is headed to and from the same place at the same time.

Re: What we need is COMMUNISM!

[dougdonovan]

getting rid of law enforcement could double crime. again, can we say "duh".

Re:What we need is COMMUNISM!

[Opportunist]

In communism, all is done for the benefit of man.

The key to success is being that man.

Re:Musk Matters

[silentcoder]

Somebody needs to find a partner so you can experience the glory of road head.

Congestion pricing, not just for uber.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

The root cause is government pricing something in great demand too cheaply. It happens all the time, water, parking, road access, ...

Government should institute congestion pricing for such districts . Vaguely recall London does this. If people are paying for passengers or renting drugged baby (just one case, despite the prominent mention in the summary) they would pay the tolls. Impose the toll on vehicle not on number of passengers. Keep raising it till employees refuse to drive to work or demand compensation from their employers. The company will pay the toll for top executives and they would never see any reason to move out of a prestigious address. If they end up paying for all employees, then it might hurt the bottom line and they will move out of the congested districts and over time the traffic problems will ease.

People are just bad drivers in general

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

It's not just you motorcycle riders who have problems. I had a blue Nissan Leaf that I leased and was using to drive to work. My distance from home to work is just under 22 miles each way and I had an older, gasoline powered car that was not doing well in the stop and go traffic and was not getting good gas mileage either, so I got the Leaf. I liked the Leaf but what I didn't like was having a large number of close calls driving it because people seemed to be unable to see it and would start getting over right into where my car was or would turn right in front of me from the opposite side of the road like I wasn't even there. I talked to a few other Leaf drivers and have heard similar stories. The Leaf is not unusually small, the design isn't strange, and there was nothing about the blue color mine had that was different from blues used by other car manufacturers, but I had a lot of incidents where people seemed completely unable to see the car. I don't have the Leaf any more and while I liked driving it, I admit to feeling a bit safer without it.

People are just pretty bad drivers in general. I am always seeing people make very risky left turns right in front of oncoming traffic rather than wait for a break in traffic where it's safer. In my state improper left turns seem to be the cause of the majority of accidents. By our state law, left turn has to yield to oncoming traffic, but you would really be surprised at how many people seem to think that oncoming traffic has to yield to all left turns.

Re:People are just bad drivers in general

[Rakarra]

I don't get it. I have a blue Nissan Leaf, never saw anything like that, nor have the other Leaf owners I've known. Is this something specific to your area?

Roads, not Lanes

[kenh]

The law had required cars driving on the business district's main roads to carry at least three passengers during rush hours.

The gov't eliminated the requirement that ALL cars driving on certain roads needed to carry 3 or more passengers, it didn't remove carpool lanes along those roads.

Under the old law EVERY CAR on certain roads were required to carry at least three passengers, cars with fewer passengers were prohibited. Once the "three or more" requirement was lifted, the streets in question were, as one would reasonably expect, flooded with more cars.

Re:Boston HOV is two occupants

[kenh]

It's not clear that a study based on HOV with 3+ occupants would be relevant to cities with a 2+ occupant HOV.

Also, we aren't talking about HOV lanes in a roadway, we are talking about the entire roadway being HOV - with fewer than three occupants, the car may not travel on the "main road" at all.

HOV Lanes are a joke.

[DatbeDank]

I regularly travel all around southern california and the HOV lanes are always always slower than the regular lanes. What's worse is having to stop in a HOV lane while regular traffic lanes keep moving. This is compounded by idiots who insist on going exactly 65mph (or worse 55-60 because muh fuel economy) instead of the speed of traffic which regularly hits 76-78.

What they need to do is set the speed limit in HOV lanes to 80mph and set a minimum speed of70mph (enforced by camera). That would solve the slow poke problem and encourage car pooling by speeding up travel time.

Re:HOV Lanes are a joke.

[Whorhay]

It's been awhile since I traveled in the bay area. But when I was there the HOV lane was frequently the only lane moving at more than 10mph during peak hours. In fact I remember moving over into the HOV lane was always a little harrowing because you had to get up to speed very quickly to avoid an accident. We could often spend more time merging from the on ramp and across four or five lanes of traffic to the HOV lane, and then reversing that process at the exit, than we spent actually in the HOV lane.

Re:Boston HOV is two occupants

[tepples]

Then how would one travel to pick up the other occupants? Or is it only for someone whose roommates work at the same place?

On which day do the buses not run?

[tepples]

Possibly more people are able to DRIVE to the city now, not GO in the general sense.

I thought the only way to go at all on certain days of the week was to drive, as public transportation systems in many cities tend to shut down entirely on the least busy days. In a plurality-Christian country, this is Sunday (source; source), but I don't know which day of the week would be the victim in a majority-Muslim country.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Grishnakh]

Also car drivers need to open their eyes and see motorcyclists.

Oh please, that's some fanciful thinking. It'll happen about the time that voters open their eyes and start electing good politicians, or the time that computer owners open their eyes and stop using a spyware-laden OS.

Inattentive and stupid and reckless car drivers are a given; it's never going to change, at least until mandatory automated driving becomes the norm.

Personally, I think motorcycles should be discriminated against: they can only get in the HOV lane after getting into a box and revving their engine. If the microphones in the box detect the engine is too loud, they can't use the road. Or maybe it should just be based on brand: BMWs and Hondas are welcome, Harleys are not. Quiet motorcycles are fine with me, I just hate the stupid loud ones. If motorcycles weren't so dangerous, I'd ride one myself (likely a Honda), but I really hate those fucking Harleys.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Grishnakh]

The big problem is that in much of the US, driver education doesn't teach new drivers how to share the road with motorcyclists.

Oh please, more fanciful crap. Here in the US, driver education teaches drivers to have 2-second following distances, to signal lane changes, to not drive aggressively, etc. Do people actually follow this advice? Hell no. What makes you think they're going to follow any teaching about sharing the road with motorcyclists? They don't even share the road with other cars.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[TwoUtes]

I can't tell if you're trolling, or are really just an idiot. You do realize that not all loud V-Twin motorcycles are Harley-Davidsons, right? There are loads of morons on excruciatingly loud Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki cruiser type bikes. I dislike loud bikes as much as the next person, but to come out and say that all loud bikes are Harleys is showing how little you actually pay attention.

Not enough non-toll lanes.

[sethstorm]

Actually, it's 12 regular lanes, 6 toll lanes.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[willy_me]

It is true that, given their weight, cars are much better on the highway with lower wind resistance. However, motorcycles use much less fuel in stop-and-go type situations then a purely petrol based car.

Motorcycles have the benefit of lower weight and the added expense of greater wind resistance. There is not much room to improve their mileage. Of course, this assumes you are looking at a model that is designed for efficiency and not the motorcycle equivalent of a mustang.

Re:I wish they'd add HOV lanes in Boston

[mikael]

I remember the Bay Area well. The on ramps came ofter the off ramps on the freeway. So there is a lane of slow traffic waiting to get off trying to weave through the lane of slow traffic trying to get onto the freeway.

The public transportation was a bit hit and miss. They had the Caltrain from San Jose to San Francisco. That was good if your offices were a ten minute walk from the station. But any distance further than 10 minutes walk was pushing it not just because of the heat in Summer, but because of all the major road intersections you had to cross (six lanes plus a barrier in the middle. It's easy to see where the inspiration for Frogger came from).

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[TechyImmigrant]

>Oh please, more fanciful crap.

I've passed the driving and motorbike test in the UK and USA. The USA test is a joke compared to the UK test. The USA motorbike test didn't even take place on the open road. It was just a trip around a school yard. The USA driving test was a drive around the block.

Re:Wrong Solution

[sexconker]

The correct solution would have been to keep the carpool lanes running, find anyone drugging babies or using drugged babies to carpool, and sterilizing or executing every party involved.

Especially the drugged babies. They're already on drugs and they're masterminding these schemes to circumvent the law!

Re:There is only one logical conclusion.

[spitzak]

Absolutely agree, what was described is not what most people think of when they hear the term "carpool lanes". You could also show that removing the congestion pricing in London would cause more congestion. Not a surprise.

In my experience carpool and toll lanes do speed things up, as there are several places in LA where they have been added or removed so it is easy to compare. The biggest complaint is that they are another form of income disparity, basically the richer people (who can pay tolls or wait the extra time to organize a carpool) can use the lanes and go faster, while the poor are stuck in the slower lanes. But the average speed is greater (ie the rich get more advantages than the poor get disadvantages). So it is difficult to say. In fact conservative/free market people should be in favor of these while liberals would be against them as that is the way the arguments go.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[knorthern knight]

> Quiet motorcycles are fine with me, I just hate the stupid loud ones.

You mean the big Harley's with big "bikers" on them. I think they deliberately disable the muffler. While we're at it, the idiots who disable mufflers on cars are no better. It's all about "being macho".

Re:I wish they'd add HOV lanes in Boston

[spitzak]

I remember the Bay Area well. The on ramps came ofter the off ramps on the freeway. So there is a lane of slow traffic waiting to get off trying to weave through the lane of slow traffic trying to get onto the freeway.

This is pretty common. If you want to minimize the number of bridges you build and not require stops to allow other traffic to make a left turn, it is unavoidable by basic topology.

I'm from Massachusetts and EVERY intersection was this design. I really doubt Massachusetts is that strange. Never say other designs with flyover bridges until California.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Grishnakh]

You're obviously an idiot if you think Hondas and Suzukis make the kind of noise that Harleys do. I've never in my life seen a Japanese cruiser modified to make the kind of noise that Harleys almost always are, and it's easy to tell the difference just from the noise because of the Harley's distinctive rhythm.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Grishnakh]

Yep, but two points:
1) The bikers always claim that it's for "safety"; the car-modders never claim this, so at least they're honest.
2) Disabling mufflers on cars, or putting loud fart-can mufflers on them, seems to have mostly died out, having hit a peak in the 1990s I believe with compacts, and probably 70s/80s for domestic muscle cars. But loud Harleys are just as popular as ever. More stringently-enforced noise codes might have something to do with this, but somehow these laws are almost never enforced against bikers.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Grishnakh]

I had one of those drive-around-the-block tests too, back in the 90s. When was your test? I've been told that tests are a lot more rigorous these days, but that's just what I've been told.

However, what they test for and what they teach are two different things, and were when I got my license too. While the driving test was almost trivial, there was still a written test based on the driving manual, which teaches those rules that I mentioned earlier. Also, when I was in high school they had driver's ed classes which taught this stuff too.

Measurement is skewed

[Wolfier]

Instead of minutes/kilometer (with an implied 'per vehecle'), how about minutes/kilometer/person?

Re:Measurement is skewed

[sl3xd]

Does "per person" matter in this case? The jockeys rode as cargo - they weren't interested in the destination.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[TechyImmigrant]

My USA driving test was at around 2000. It involved driving around the block. The examiner said "Yep, you're good", signed the paper and I was done.
My USA motorbike test was about 2 years ago. It involved riding slowly around a series of cones in a school yard while the examiner looked on.

My UK driving test was 24 years ago. It was 30-45 minute of driving around, emergency stops, reversing around corners, 3-point turns and being observed all the time for good observation and signal use.

My UK motorbike was maybe 18 years ago. I rode in front of an examiner who was on his own bike and we shared a radio headset link through which he gave commands. We rode around town, did emergency stops, slow riding, fast riding, filtering (riding between lines of cars at the lights) and a bunch of other stuff.

   

Re:Musk Matters

[thesupraman]

Isn't it interesting how many of the subject trolls come out on this article.
Its almost as if they want to shut down discussion here so that people don't find out that this article is a blatant misrepresentation.
Now, the question is, who would want to do that?
Ahh, could it possibly be the anti-car lobby who think we should all gently ride out pushbikes through green meadows on our way to yoga class?

Of course the reality is that this is not a case of carpool LANES being closed, that is a blatant and false misrepresentation.
It is a whole carpool ROAD being opened to normal drivers.
You will note there is exactly zero mention of the fact that, because of this, total road users would have gone up massively.

So, surprise surprise, when you convert a whole road from restricted use to open use, MORE PEOPLE USE IT.

However, I expect this 'study' to be heavily used by anti-car groups in councils, etc to shut off more lanes to the general public 'for their own good'.
Because after all, you should punish those damn middle class workers who need to actually go to work to feed their families. They should just be
poor enough to not work, or rich enough to have other options, like not working or living next to their employment.

Re:I wish they'd add HOV lanes in Boston

[Qzukk]

So there is a lane of slow traffic waiting to get off trying to weave through the lane of slow traffic trying to get onto the freeway

As opposed to how they do it in Texas, where the entrance comes first and the lane of traffic trying to get onto the freeway is completely blocked off by the lane of traffic stopped in the freeway waiting for the light (at the intersection at the end of the exit ramp) to turn green so they can get off.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Rakarra]

Motorcycles, when measured by the amount of fuel required to move a fixed weight a certain distance, are horribly inefficient. If a typical 4,000 lb. passenger car operated with the same efficiency as a 500 lb. motorcycle getting 70 mpg, the car would only get 9 mpg.

Yeah, but we don't measure it that way because the 4000lb is not payload you care about, only the contents of the car are. The weight of a car is only a means to an end.

Although we're concerned in this case with absolute fuel usage rather than proportional usage, the point remains that motorcycles could get far better mileage than they do.

There's a certain amount of overhead that will be taken by operating an ICE regardless of the payload weight. Also, a certain amount of static friction / tire, a certain amount of wind resistance which will be larger than the difference between weights might indicate.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Rakarra]

BMWs and Hondas are welcome, Harleys are not.

I think Harleys are fine if the driver -looks- like a stereotypical Hell's Angel biker. The more... bikery he (sorry, it has to be a he) is, the more likely it is he gets to ride on the roads.

If you look like Al Bundy or like anyone who works at Oracle, hell no.

Re: Seattle just closed the I-90 express lanes

[Rakarra]

Boy, some AC has been busy in this thread!