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A Robot At DEFCON Cracked A Safe Within 30 Minutes (bbc.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the automating-larceny dept.

schwit1 shared an article from the BBC: Using a cheap robot, a team of hackers has cracked open a leading-brand combination safe, live on stage in Las Vegas. The team from SparkFun Electronics was able to open a SentrySafe safe in around 30 minutes... After the robot discovered the combination was 51.36.93, the safe popped open -- to rapturous applause from the audience of several hundred... The robot, which cost around $200 to put together, makes use of 3D-printed parts that can be easily replaced to fit different brands of combination safe. It cannot crack a digital lock -- although vulnerabilities in those systems have been exposed by other hacking teams in the past.
Though the safe had a million possible combinations using three two-digit numbers, the last number had slightly larger indents on the dial -- reducing the possible combinations to just 10,000. And in addition, "the team also discovered that the safe's design allows for a margin of error to compensate for humans getting their combination slightly wrong" -- which meant that the robot only had to check every third number. "Using this method, they could cut down the number of possible combinations to around 1,000."

"Some SentrySafe models come with an additional lock and key, but the team was able to unlock it by using a Bic pen."

128 comments

  1. Sounds like they watched a few Richard Feynman by Tulsa_Time · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You Tube Videos...

    --
    5 out of 6 people enjoy Russian Roulette & 6 out of 7 Dwarfs are not Happy
    1. Re:Sounds like they watched a few Richard Feynman by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Exactly. The stories of his safe cracking in Surely You're Joking... are great. That book and they follow-on should be required reading for anyone interested in hacking, in the old school meaning of the term.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    2. Re:Sounds like they watched a few Richard Feynman by gl4ss · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They're an interesting read for anyone who doesn't want to be an idiot, really.

      even if you figured out some of the stuff yourself, reading surely you're joking gives you at least some hope in humanity and in that, no, people aren't that different despite few decades of time passing - but you don't have to let it get to you too much.

      aaaanyways also this is kinda why proper safes have delay locks.. with a home safe I would be more interested in if it keeps the stuff safe in an event of fire or whatever(the reason for the name "safe" vs. a lockbox).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    3. Re:Sounds like they watched a few Richard Feynman by edtice1559 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are two types of safes. Fire safes and security safes. There may be safes that combine both sets of features but they aren't sold at everyday retailers. A fire safe is typically made up of insulating material and you could probably cut through it pretty easily. A security safe tends to be made of high-strength materials. As a DIY measure, I guess you could put a security safe inside of a fire safe! I wouldn't do the other way around as the fire might prevent the security safe from opening.

    4. Re:Sounds like they watched a few Richard Feynman by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      You forgot the 3rd type - "flimsy metal locking box", which is what almost every Sentry safe is.

      Hint - if it doesn't have an Underwriters Lab listing, it isn't worth the $...

      If you *really* need a safe (I delayed for ages due to cost, sucked it up and instead of buying another rifle I bought a safe - with UL cert - to put the rest of 'em in) check the deal at Big Box Stores - Lowes, Home Depot, Rural King, Tractor Supply.

      Most of these give veterans a discount, sometimes you can catch a sale, sometimes you can get a scratched one and get $ off, etc. At the very least, 5-10% off for chargign on your store card, maybe more if you open a new store account...

      I got a $1000 safe for $450. First, they were on sale for $700 with free to-store shipping. So I bought. But when I picked it up, they said that they had hit the temp foot it ships with in the bolt-down holes to keep it raised for forklifts. So I let tehm put it on my truck (took 4 folks and a forklift) and once it was in and "mine" I asked what kind of discount for torqued holes that are meant to let me bolt it to my slab... Manager brought me cash out to the truck as a refund.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    5. Re:Sounds like they watched a few Richard Feynman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you tie an onion to your belt?

    6. Re:Sounds like they watched a few Richard Feynman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually fire safes say they aren't for more than casual theft security. In a fire a seal around the lid melts to keep fire fighting water out. After the fire the instructions recommend using a simple crow bar to pop melted-in-place lid off.

  2. Re:Do all fat men sing chumbawamba to themself ? by turkeydance · · Score: 2, Funny

    fat men sing in the bath tub with the blues (littlefeat)

  3. My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    was broken into in the less than twenty minutes between when someone kicked in my door and the Seattle police responded. They took everything in it. Sentry makes horrible safes.

    1. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a pic of my same model of safe:

      http://imgur.com/a/iaoru

      The three guys that broke into it got into it before the SPD arrived then left before they got here.

    2. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG. I have the same safe. Brb, shopping on Amazon.com for a new one.

    3. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As is well known. By attacking this brand, they've proven they aren't competent.

    4. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SPD as in Seattle? Someone kicked down my door and they took over four hours to respond. Thankfully they didn't kick in my locked bedroom door, but they did take everything of value from my living room including my personal laptop and work laptop.

    5. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The police have no legal duty to protect citizens not already in custody. Many don't realize that. Burglary is considered little more than a nuance in many locales and treated much like a noise complaint. The police likely won't come, and even if they do, may do little to no investigating.

      On a related note, often the places with the tightest gun restrictions have very poor police response. In my view, if the police have no legal obligation to protect the public, then the public should have the right to be armed with few restrictions. Be glad it wasn't an armed robbery. Even that doesn't necessarily guarantee a timely police response either.

      As for safes, pretty much of any of them marketed as fire safes aren't intended for high security. From what I've read, figure on spending upwards of $1000 for even a smallish one cubic foot size safe that's relatively secure. Don't expect to find anything even remotely as good at any well known big box store with the possible exception of sporting good stores that also sell gun safes, and by extension, may offer better general purpose safes too.

      Finally, regardless of the safe and its weight, it must be bolted down well for good security. Bank safe deposit box is an alternative for some, but comes with numerous hazards, including various legal ones. Banks generally aren't liable for contents and some types of items can't legally be stored in such a box.

    6. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > less than twenty minutes...Seattle police responded

      That's impressive. Usually they tell you to call back the next day. I know the last time I called 911 when someone stole my car then later kicked in my door, they told me to wait until 9am the next day to call back.

    7. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why would any thinking person expect less than a four hour response?

    8. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. More competent people would seek out a better brand.

    9. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Four hours isn't too bad as compared to what I've seen from the Seattle police.

    10. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That isn't a bad respond time for any metro PD.

    11. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone that lives in a city can expect a multiple-hour response time so they should know to never buy a Sentry safe.

    12. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by knightghost · · Score: 2

      Police would be here in less than 4 minutes. Then again we encourage self defense, leading to so little crime that the police can respond immediately to what does occur.

    13. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      with how the police are trained in usa.. it might be better off if they come 4 hours later and the situation has chilled out already and the sun has come up so the poor sods don't get spooked so easliy.

      seriously you should just demand the police education gets tripled or quadrupled to match countries with less police shootings and less gun fatalities. and the pay level is the highest in the world for coppers so there's that too, it's not like it's not compensated for.

      also, you got some stats to back that up?

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    14. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone that lives in a city can expect a multiple-hour response time so they should know to never buy a Sentry safe.

      This. The Seattle PD doesn't claim faster than a four hour response.

    15. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Burglary is considered little more than a nuance in many locales and treated much like a noise complaint. The police likely won't come, and even if they do, may do little to no investigating.

      And yet the last couple cities I've lived in, with 200-500k people within larger metro areas, the police responded to break-ins in a couple minutes, even when it was obvious that the burglars have long since been gone. For the two incidents that were actually on my property, they spent some time taking down serial numbers, looking around for possible prints (even when it was hopeless in one case due to being a dusty garage used for woodworking... but they spent some time checking just in case they got lucky). I had a follow up call in one case to check the brand names to see if they could match things up to recovered goods from an arrest later in the week.

      Maybe instead of rationalizing why police suck in your city, you should be complaining to or working with the people who can fix that. That is not how it has to be, as other places are different.

      On a related note, often the places with the tightest gun restrictions have very poor police response.

      Of those three cities I have experience with dealing with police and their quick responses, two had very strict approaches to guns and the other was very open due a strong hunting culture. And from time spent abroad, places with really strict control of guns seem to have cops that are more interested in solving problems than trying to just get people off the streets and spend most of their time worry about their own safety. Other places where it was very easy to get guns and the police were worthless, the solution was to hire private security instead of risking your life over a television.

    16. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Police would be here in less than 4 minutes. Then again we encourage self defense, leading to so little crime that the police can respond immediately to what does occur.

      Where is that, because it certainly isn't Seattle where we've been taught to expect a 4+ hour response.

    17. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're lucky it only took four hours. It took them more than a week to respond when my place got broken into while I was at home.

    18. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're supposed to fix things, but everything is broken.

    19. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      What the fuck are you talking about, weirdo?

      that 'murican cops are trained to shoot if they feel scared.

      that's not a joke or an urban myth or anything.. that's literally the aim of the training. to make them shoot (to kill) if they feel scared. also that's the literal opposite of how cops are trained in most of the world.

      scared pussies that you pay double the wage that people in other countries get from training to be police for triple the time. yet, you refuse to recognize this is a problem of any sort.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    20. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because we pay so much in taxes?

    21. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Police would be here in less than 4 minutes. Then again we encourage self defense, leading to so little crime that the police can respond immediately to what does occur.

      Where's here?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    22. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by KGIII · · Score: 2

      Almost all shots are meant to kill. Those vanishingly small few that aren't, should be. Adding 'to kill' reeks of an agenda or ignorance. If the latter, given the vast amount of education on the subject, I can only assume it is willful.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    23. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fast response is easy. Just call a second time and say they don't have to come because you just killed the intruders, and now you're sawing them into suitable pieces to feed to your dogs.

      They have to respond to shit like that - if nothing else because every other decade someone actually is that crazy.

    24. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by dak664 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      For immediate response, dial 911, hangup, don't answer the ringback.

    25. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This. The German rank and file police I worked with had the equivalent of a Master's degree in criminal justice. The English police had a year of training for unarmed combat.

      US police might get a few hours, but the majority of their training is at the range, so they do what they are trained to do in a heated situation; draw, aim for center of mass and empty the magazine on their duty weapon, and then fill out the paperwork while out on paid leave. That is just how the US police system works. The officers are good people, and few are truly bloodthirsty, but their training is essentially limited to gun battles, with not much left over for situations that don't require deadly force 24/7.

      If you gave US police officers similar training as European, Japanese, or even Canadian officers, things would be completely different.

    26. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Correction, because they steal so much in taxes. Again, why do expect them to care?

    27. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The less than four hour response proves the police are trying to protect us."

      You do realize the irony of your statement, don't you?

    28. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Four hours to respond is unconscionable, in case you don't realize that.

    29. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by aicrules · · Score: 1

      so what the fuck are they doing between the call and the arrival "within 4 hours"? Are there that many crimes happening that are worse than a break-in with owner in home that it takes that long?

    30. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they are not morons like you?

    31. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by butzwonker · · Score: 1

      The police have no legal duty to protect citizens not already in custody. Many don't realize that.

      They sure have that duty where I live, so let me ask someone else before I store this in the "only in the US..." category of unbelievable US exceptions in comparison to the rest of the world: Is this even remotely true?

    32. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by dunkelfalke · · Score: 4, Informative

      Maybe where you come from, but German police is trained to shoot to stop. This is one of the reasons why in Germany only about 12 persons per year get shot to death by the police. German police is also trained to only shoot as ultima ratio when there is no other way to stop a person instead of using their firearm when they are scared. This is why many German cops never once have shot at people during their decades-long carreer.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    33. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by trg83 · · Score: 2

      It is, unfortunately, true for the US. Several Supreme Court rulings have decided this to be true.

    34. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by kelemvor4 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This. I work for the Seattle city government, and we demand a less than four hour response to all break-ins. We are trying very hard.

      That's pretty pathetic. To be useful it needs to be a lot closer to 15 minutes. Otherwise, they're never going to catch anyone or save any lives. At 1+ hours, all they're doing is playing secretary as they write a report.
      If you can't protect your citizens better than that, you should be encouraging gun ownership and self defense/home security type training for citizens.
      In Tampa, FL I've had to call the police 2 or 3 times in the past decade. They've always come very quickly, I don't have actual times but I'm thinking close to 15 minutes for sure.

      I just can't get over it. You're proud of a 4 hour response time? That's really bad.

    35. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

      This. I work for the Seattle city government, and we demand a less than four hour response to all break-ins. We are trying very hard.

      That's pretty pathetic. To be useful it needs to be a lot closer to 15 minutes. Otherwise, they're never going to catch anyone or save any lives. At 1+ hours, all they're doing is playing secretary as they write a report. If you can't protect your citizens better than that, you should be encouraging gun ownership and self defense/home security type training for citizens. In Tampa, FL I've had to call the police 2 or 3 times in the past decade. They've always come very quickly, I don't have actual times but I'm thinking close to 15 minutes for sure. I just can't get over it. You're proud of a 4 hour response time? That's really bad.

      I should also point out, that in one of those incidents they caught the perpetrator nearby. If they'd waited 2 or 3 hours he would have been long gone.

    36. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't. The Ferguson Effect is underway in Seattle. After watching the mayoral "debate" (six liberals trying to out-progressive each other) and its twenty minutes of "the police are all racists", I sure as hell would feel betrayed if I were SPD.

    37. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      You shoot only when you need to. When you do shoot, you shoot to kill. If they stop, before being dead, that's a bonus. If they don't stop, shoot them again.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    38. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Look, if they have an obligation to protect, they can be sued when they fail. If there is no way for police to be held legally liable for not protecting any specific person, they have no obligation to protect anyone.

    39. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      And shoot them again in the head, just to be sure. I get it.
      You guys are nuts.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    40. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      If the first two don't stop them, they usually keep aiming for center mass.

      I'm also 98.4% sure that your police are taught the same thing. You may be right, but that's not very bright. If they're a danger, you shoot - and all shots intend to kill. Well, virtually all. There have been a few exceptions - they were stupid. Some sniper once shot a firearm out of a guy's hand. Most cops aren't snipers and that was pretty much the only time I've heard of it being a valid idea - and even then it was a judgment call.

      No, your cops don't aim for the leg. No, they don't aim for the shoulder. No, they don't aim for an arm. They aim for center mass. If they hit a leg, they're bad shots - which is excusable because shooting a moving target isn't like it is in the movies. It's all the more difficult when you're under pressure. Contrary to popular opinion, most folks don't like shooting people.

      Note: I say most - but my country does have Texas. So, I've got to stick with most, as opposed to everyone.

      And yes, we are nuts. I'm not even kidding. We're fucking insane. Like 40% of us are currently on psychiatric drugs. That number should probably be higher.

      Dude... We elected fucking Trump. Our insanity is no longer in question.

      However, you still shoot center mass. That is not actually insane - that's sound practice, taught across the world for a reason. If it's so dangerous that you're obligated to fire your weapon, you aim for center mass. That's a very, very good chance of killing on the first shot. (It's not the movies, it's reality.)

      If you're curious, I served in the Marines to pay for college and was a competitive shooter way back when I was even younger than that. I am not a "gun nut." I sure as hell don't want to shoot anyone, and I don't even know anyone in a militia. I'm also damned sure I'm not gonna take on the government. If you rob me, I'm just gonna give you my stuff. That shit's insured and I really don't want to kill anyone. Even if I draw a weapon, I'm still probably gonna give you my stuff. I'm not so scared that shooting is on my list of things to do, unless absolutely required. Faced with an active shooter? Oh, fuck that... I'll be nothing but asshole and elbows, as I get the fuck out of there.

      Sorry for the long post, but I'm pretty bored.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    41. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Marful · · Score: 1

      The Seattle PD tries to respond to all break-ins within four hours.

      Might as well not even bother to respond if the wait time is 4 hours.

    42. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Shooting for legs is fine for a German cop. Actually even shooting at the tarmac in front of a person. Hitting a leg with a pistol at 20 meters is not difficult. Like I said, you guys are nuts, and not in the psychiatrig drugs taking way - nothing wrong about these, I take some myself. Center of mass targeting is military, not police and police should not behave like military because that way they will consider citizens being their enemies.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    43. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Stealthey · · Score: 1

      On a related note, often the places with the tightest gun restrictions have very poor police response. In my view, if the police have no legal obligation to protect the public, then the public should have the right to be armed with few restrictions. Be glad it wasn't an armed robbery. Even that doesn't necessarily guarantee a timely police response either.

      You got anything to backup this statement? We have gun control here in Canada, granted there is still gun related crimes but police response to any crime is almost immediate. At least in Peel Region, they are fast.
      Guns kill people, plain and simple. US has most number of guns per capita, yet its jails are over crowded, violence and gun-related death are probably highest in any developed nation. By your logic, guns should have eliminated all crime.

      Obviously society is not so easily contained by simplified statements and analysis. I agree, any non-us resident would not understand the US's infatuation with guns, but at what point will there be reform in policies that reduce gun crime, racism and other related *self-imposed* ills in American society. Why is it, that a country known to be at the forefront of tech., science, philosophy and tolerance also is known for most incarcerations, racism and intolerance etc.

      Does that make sense, I'm confused.

      --
      I am at loss with words...
    44. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      Have you ever met a Japanese police officer?
      I lived in japan, and the few times I interacted with them, they were primarily skilled at filling out forms, walking around, and waving flags. To be fair, there's not a lot of crime there outside of criminal on criminal that they need to deal with.
      Once, when my bike was stolen, he was very attentive to the proper form filling out, and had me revise my form a few times due to my bad Japanese. Of course I never got the bike back.
      Another time, one accosted me in the street for being foreign, and I hesitated to tell him that his holstered pistol was falling out,only being kept in the holster by the silly cable they have to keep it from being lost.

    45. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      If you're not shooting for center mass, you don't need to be shooting - with some exceptions.

      Here's a fun one... I was a transportation officer at a military brig. I carried a shotgun and a sidearm. The shotgun was for if they ran away. It had just a slug, made of lead. You shoot about three steps behind them escaping inmate and the round expands when it hits the ground and is deflected up - ideally into their ass. If they kept moving, the next shot was to kill. (I never had to do any of those.)

      And I'm gonna need a citation on the German police training. I know of no forces that do not shoot to kill. They could exist, but that seems really doubtful. I know many, many police officers - and many from outside the US. If you're shooting, you're shooting with the intent to hit center mass, even from 20 meters away. If you're not, then you probably shouldn't be shooting. Nobody can consistently hit a leg while someone is moving and you're stress - nobody. That's a risk you do not take.

      I've tried looking this up, Google isn't helpful and I don't speak German. I can use online translators, however.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    46. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Raenex · · Score: 1

      This is one of the reasons why in Germany only about 12 persons per year get shot to death by the police.

      There's practically no gun crime to speak of in Germany. In the United States, there's plenty. Go put a badge on, and then spend some time policing. Tell me what you're going to do when some punk doesn't listen to commands and starts reaching like he has a gun. Tell me you're going to be John Wayne and shoot the guy's pistol out of his hand.

      Does he have a pistol? Why isn't he following commands. Think fast now.

    47. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why many German cops never once have shot at people during their decades-long carreer.

      ...post-1945, you mean?

    48. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Over here, trespassing is considered a mortal threat and the resident may respond as such. If your residence is not safe, then you are not safe. My dad refused to leave my mom's driveway. Sheriff was there in minutes with lights blazing. My father almost got charged with assault just for trespassing because he refused to leave when asked. An attack on a person's property is nearly akin to an attack on the person, mostly depending on how long it drags out.

    49. Re:My Sentry safe model 1250.. by chuckugly · · Score: 1

      When seconds count, the police are only hours away. How incredibly reassuring. /s

    50. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by chuckugly · · Score: 1

      Maybe where you come from, but German police is trained to shoot to stop. ...

      That's what all police are trained for, and that's also the basis of self defense shootings; the goal is to make the person doing the bad thing stop doing that thing. The rub is that in actual practice it's very similar to shooting to kill, since mammals are notoriously hard to stop but relatively easy to wound fatally.

    51. Re: My Sentry safe model 1250.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-43144021.html

      As you say it's not easy to hit legs or arms but that's what they are supposed to try to hit. The article says it's because they haven't been trained correctly for shooting at legs and arms. You're saying that that's basically impossible anyway and they should train to shoot at center mass. But they're not, even though in practice it looks like trying to shoot an arm makes for good head shot possibilities...

      As you might notice that article was from 1971 :)

      http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2014-08/polizei-schiessen-offensive-waffenhaltung

      Out of >10000 shots fired in 2012 a total of 104 were fired directly at a person.

      That's just for numbers really but I've also found a few other articles that speak about shooting for center mass. Basically they all corroborate what you say I.e. that if the target is moving that's the best option. And if it's not moving why shoot at all? Now if someone is moving away from the police and no bystanders are at risk you can shoot in the air or at the ground for example but if they're close to you and moving towards you, German police shoot for center mass. Just that they basically almost never need to.

  4. Help me understand this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hundreds of fat and sweaty nerds watched a machine made to crack a safe that the machines owners already knew how to crack? And they cheered with incredible raptor?

    What would they do if they saw a naked woman? Cream their pants and stutter uncontrollably about colored pills?

    1. Re:Help me understand this by hord · · Score: 1

      Look in the mirror as you press F5.

    2. Re: Help me understand this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you should get a hair transplant from your hairy ass back?

    3. Re:Help me understand this by gl4ss · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it's defcon.

      that is, nowadays it seems it's just about a) money b) cheesy pr stunts to get said money.

      why do you think it's in vegas and not say in hamburg?

      never mind the fact that it was just a brute forcer - ultrasonic detection, xrays, click detection or anything - just brute force an amount a human could brute force!.

      like okay, just have it as an exhibit on the show floor.. okay.

      but just take a look at the talks. okay there's apple watch jailbreak but thats about it and even that is kind of a who gives a fuck when you can buy open smartwatches for 1/6th of the price

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    4. Re:Help me understand this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "incredible raptor" - LOL...

  5. Very Cool Application by mykepredko · · Score: 4, Informative

    I know this isn't at the level of what you'd see in a James Bond movie, but neither is the Sentry safe.

    Congratulations to the team at SparkFun!

    --
    Mimetics Inc. Twitter
    1. Re:Very Cool Application by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 2

      I know this isn't at the level of what you'd see in a James Bond movie, but neither is the Sentry safe.

      Exactly. The story quote is:

      a leading-brand combination safe,

      My thought having worked with some mid-range GSA approved classified document safes and gun safes is that a Sentry is to safes as an inexpensive Master combination lock is to locks...

      But the idea of how it was "cracked" is nifty none the less.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  6. Hosts file? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can I use APK Host File Fenerator to protect my sentry safes from these deplorable hackers?

  7. James Bond by AHuxley · · Score: 3, Funny

    On Her Majesty's Secret Service (1969) had that safe-cracking machine.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:James Bond by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      So did The Saint with Val Kilmer.

    2. Re:James Bond by ausekilis · · Score: 1

      I liked how the safe cracker in Italian Job looked much better.

    3. Re:James Bond by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was going to make a joke about you being attracted to Michael Caine, but my limited research seems to indicate the original 1969 movie didn't have a safe to crack...oh well...

    4. Re:James Bond by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Donald Sutherland?

  8. Bad reporting. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    All entry and low-line safes have wide gates. Cracking by brute force is done on 3s or 2s if the tolerances are tighter. This wasn't an accomplishment, it was what anyone with the least amount of training possible would have done. Congratulations for being too dumb to look something up before commenting on it as an accomplishment.

    1. Re: Bad reporting. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why was this modded down?7

    2. Re: Bad reporting. by aicrules · · Score: 1

      For everything after "tighter." Though even the third sentence probably would have been okay, that last sentence did AC in.

  9. So, not surprised they're not all that secure by bobstreo · · Score: 1

    Do they at least provide some measure of flame resistance for the contents?

    Otherwise, you may as well leave your important/valuable stuff sitting in a closet.

    1. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by Hentes · · Score: 1

      Every security mechanism using passcodes will be vulnerable to a bruteforce method. I imagine that if robots like this will become widespread safes will start to be equipped with timers to defeat them. Even without that though, 30 mins is still a long enough time to deter most burglers, especially with the noise this machine generates.

    2. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by starblazer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) steal safe
      2) stash safe
      3) attach robot
      4) profit?

      Key to this is to make sure its bolted to the floor. Most home safes aren't.

    3. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by xlsior · · Score: 1

      Or they'll just add additional numbers/turns to the code -- time needed will increase exponentially with each extra number.

    4. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by fermion · · Score: 1

      It took 30 minutes to break into the safe using brute force. The advantage is that one can get into the safe without anyone knowing. On the other hand, safes rated for 30 minutes tend to be high end, soil there is not another faster way in, then this is a pretty good safe. But yes, most businesses I know tend to hide important documents in plain sight. Safes are mostly to discourage causal theft and protection from fire.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    5. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by arth1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Many of the Sentry safes can be opened in seconds with a powerful magnet. They're useful for keeping honest people honest, and give moderate protection from fires, depending on placement.
      Mechanical safes are generally safer (no pun intended) than keypad ones, but there are still lots of exploits for quite a few of the common safe models.

    6. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      Key to this is to make sure its bolted to the floor.

      Great, then if they find my sawzall it'll really get expensive...

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    7. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by Calydor · · Score: 2

      Just put it in the safe.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    8. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by No+Longer+an+AC · · Score: 2

      They claim they are fireproof and even give some specifications as to heat and duration.

      That's what what mine is for. It's also waterproof (I was able to test that much - I'll take their word that it's fireproof).

      I was advised once to get one but leave it unlocked - otherwise they'll just steal the whole thing. I keep it locked anyway but I don't expect it to really stop anyone burglarizing my home. (so presumably this way they'll just steal the contents? Hooray, I guess).

    9. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      Some of the cheap safes do offer decent protection against fire. That's the reason I got that relatively cheap Honeywell safe for my home office. It came out pretty well in a fire test, not so well in a break-in test: it can be banged open fairly quickly. But even on this crappy cheap ass safe, the spin lock has to be turned to zero after dialing in the combination, before the door handle can be operated. This prevents someone from feeling notches on any of the rotors, including the first one.

      The lock they opened with a pen was probably a radial lock (the kind with circular keys). Do not ever buy anything using that kind of lock, period. It's a terrible design having all of the tumblers exposed, and even the ones that cannot be picked with a pen can be picked by anyone with a paperclip and a little patience.

      Want to actually protect something? A good safe with a good lock (either with key, keypad or spin lock) costs maybe a couple 100 €/$ and they last pretty much forever.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    10. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Key to this is to make sure its bolted to the floor.

      Great, then if they find my sawzall it'll really get expensive...

      If you're gonna go through the trouble of bolting the thing down, then do it right and bolt it into concrete, not drywall.

      When it comes to consumer-grade safes, the security deterrent isn't really the locking mechanism (as proven by a cheap robot). It's simple physics. Make it hard enough to move, and you'll likely deter the overwhelming majority of criminals.

    11. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Concrete tends to be where it gets wet :)

      Just having fun - you are right of course. In my neighborhood, the safe probably only needs to last about 10 minutes or so to deter the thieves. Once the alarm goes off, they aren't going to stick around long because the police are pretty responsive. If I was in one of these 4-hour response time neighborhoods (and why would I be?), I need a better safe.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    12. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by ctilsie242 · · Score: 1

      What I don't get is why the round keys are even still used. The basic Abloy style disk detainer locks have fallen out of patent for almost a century, and even a version of that like what is in the Sargent & Greenleaf Environmental padlock which uses fewer disks, would be more than good enough for a basic security container. Heck, a lever lock, which is 1700s technology, would be useful and decently secure (hell, AT&T/Ma Bell used a variant of lever locks (29B/30C) for decades which were extremely pick resistant in pay phones. (Matt Blaze did an excellent writeup of this.)

      In fact, with the ease of modern machining, the fact that Ace locks are still used is just befuddling. One can make a lock with fewer moving parts that has far more security. One doesn't need Abloy PROTEC2 level either. A STRATTEC lock, which is what Ford and GM use for automotive tasks would be more than enough for a basic security container, providing not just pick resistance, but decent resistance to tough usage conditions (dusty environments, etc.)

      I just think it is befuddling that in this era, we are still using ACE locks and CH751-style disk tumbler locks. If a cheap pin tumbler lock has to be used, even the cheap Chinese makers are turning out dimple locks that have some pick resistance. Realistically, we should be using things like EVVA MKS, Abloy PROTEC2 CLIQ, or other locks which have no real way to make a tool to pick or bypass nondestructively.

    13. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by White+Yeti · · Score: 1

      I agree with the unlocked fire safe advice. My small, $600, 300 lb. theft/fire safe was pried off the floor bolt and removed in about 30 minutes. In addition to 2 jewelry boxes, it contained lots of "fire" stuff like documents and keys. If the thieves had opened the safe they would have left half the stuff behind.

    14. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are ways to secure cylinder locks. Ace II are quite difficult to open by the unskilled because of differing spring tension. There currently are none that use security pins but they could. Dimple pin designs provide no more picking resistance than a tight keyway and typical ones come with torpedo pins and a couple serrated pins. Most people just aren't familiar with rotating picks and so have a difficult time with them.

      Realistically keys should not be used for security containers. They just don't fit the use case. There is the "password" out in the world in duplicate ready to be photographed or stolen and it costs decent money to change them. Meanwhile combination locks are much easier to change and information can be easier to secure than keys.

      There are several ways of opening an EVVA MKS and Protec2. Some are much more elegant than others. EVVA MKS tools are quite interesting. These things are on the "cutting-edge" so nobody wants to talk about them in detail for now hint: they use hall sensors and flexible circuit boards in a lishi styled desing. The Protec2 pics are either heavily refined and modified classic pics that are near impossible to use right now. Or, alternatively a moderate-speed rotary design that is closer to brute force. Still pretty quick. But honestly most people that go against a protect just press a surface mill onto the front or use a slam hammer. Gone in five seconds. Less time than any other lock destruction outside of crappy Chinese mortices and ring cylinders. And lets face it, this isn't a nerd competition. Thieves don't have impressive skills. They will use brute force. Protecs are garbage against brute force in comparison to even a simple Schlage.

    15. Re:So, not surprised they're not all that secure by chuckugly · · Score: 1

      A safe can provide some legal protection (kids in a house with firearms) and can bolster an insurance claim. Practically, any safe a consumer is likely to use can be defeated with 20 minutes and a $12 pawn shop grinder and cutting wheel.

  10. New at 11: Sentry safes are not secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Sentry safes have long been known not to be super secure. They picked low hanging fruit for this demonstration. Forget even dealing with the locking mechanism, its not that hard to pop them open with a crowbar or some other prying device. Check out YouTube. However they do provide modest security (think locking a gun away from the kids) and are fire resistant.

    I personally have one, but its primarily for securing documents in a fire resistant manner. I would by no means store gold bullion or anything else of high value in one.

    1. Re:New at 11: Sentry safes are not secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They even show in demonstration videos for these things that they are able to be pried into. I't how you get into one of these things after a fire

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx5Y4gWWhLE

  11. Seriously, BBC? by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 2

    WTF?

    Sorry, you need Flash to play this.
    Enable it in your browser or download Flash Player here.

    I thought the BBC was a bit more up-to-date on current technologies. I guess I was terribly wrong.

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
    1. Re:Seriously, BBC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL, BBC cuckold porn is anything but modern. Half those videos are VHS dubs from the late 90s. It's kinda weird that THAT survived of all the amateur porn out there. Is it that there is that big of a demand of it or just that more was made or what? Please enlighten us. captcha mistress

    2. Re:Seriously, BBC? by tsa · · Score: 1

      That's strange. I could play the video on my iPad, which doesn't have any Flash software.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    3. Re:Seriously, BBC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, they have a HTML5 based player.

      DontBeAMoran, check your browser settings and/or .*block/noscript if you've got it

    4. Re:Seriously, BBC? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3

      The BBC hasn't been at the forefront of tech for many years. They developed a lot of cool stuff back in the day, but their streaming video tech is abysmal. Flash required for BBC News embedded videos, and iPlayer's video quality is terrible ("HD" is only 720p, very low bit rate and poor encoder).

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Seriously, BBC? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      No there's something strange for your. I have no problem playing Flash and I even double checked to ensure it was blocked.

    6. Re:Seriously, BBC? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      *playing the video without Flash. Jeesh sometimes I wish Slashdot had a preview feature.

    7. Re:Seriously, BBC? by gchat · · Score: 1

      That's strange. I could play the video on my iPad, which doesn't have any Flash software.

      That's because BBC like many other sites, switch to html5 on their mobile site version. Desktop version needs flash though...

    8. Re:Seriously, BBC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "HD" is only 720p

      Talk about first world problems! It's like if the news, in this day and age half the time filmed with shitty phone cameras, needed to be in super-high def. If North Korea is on the news because they launched a new intercontinental ballistic missile, do you need the news report in HD? Or is a op-ed about the ramifications of that with 10 thousand words enough?

    9. Re:Seriously, BBC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get are real operating system, you dirty peasant.

    10. Re:Seriously, BBC? by antdude · · Score: 1

      What happened? Budget cuts? Bad managements? :(

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    11. Re:Seriously, BBC? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Budget cuts. The current government hates the BBC and is trying to destroy it by curing its funding.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  12. From an actual safecracker: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sentry safes are the masterlock of the safe and vault world. They use cheap direct-entry mechanisms.

    30 minutes for a direct-entry minus setup would be considered middling skill. A novice can get there in a few months of casual practice.

    1. Re:From an actual safecracker: by gringer · · Score: 1

      Or a couple of weeks with a 3D printer, arduino, and a few other accessories.

      --
      Ask me about repetitive DNA
    2. Re:From an actual safecracker: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or ten minutes with an off-the-shelf angle grinder.

      Don't over think this. It isn't impressive.

    3. Re:From an actual safecracker: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or ten minutes with an off-the-shelf angle grinder.

      Don't over think this. It isn't impressive.

      The main security feature for consumer-grade safes isn't the lock.

      It's the weight.

      Don't overthink this.

  13. Big deal... by jonwil · · Score: 2

    This is like all the videos showing Master padlocks opened with hammers and zip ties and things, Let me know when their fancy-pants robot can manipulate open a top-of-the-line Sargent & Greenleaf UL 768 Group 1 rated combination lock in such a short space of time and it might be noteworthy...

    All this video does is show that the Sentry Safe safes are just as crappy as any other product Master Lock makes.

    1. Re:Big deal... by tsa · · Score: 1

      If it was a crappy safe it would take 30 seconds to open it, not 30 minutes.

      --

      -- Cheers!

  14. Fantastic Work by cafeletsmeet · · Score: 1

    Technology at its very very best. Reports suggest that the underground organizations have already devised a technique which will allow miraculous things to happen like flying a plane without fuel , or flying a car in air . Considering that powerful technologies are being kept secret, some of the effect is bound to occur in the lives of normal people. Lets hope people uses the positive aspect to a much greater use like the Team SParkFun

  15. That safe seems very old and insecure by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

    My safe is quite old and crappy and, to open it, you need to input the right combination formed by 4 numbers of 2 digits (around 100 million different possibilities) and use a key.

    Important warning for anyone feeling like cracking my safe: it doesn't contain anything of value. As clearly stated in my profile description, I am (kind of) poor and have no interest in becoming rich, in the sense of acquiring a relevant amount of assets, material goods, enjoying expensive whatever, etc. Why does a (kind of) poor person have a safe, you might wonder? For the same reason why a surprisingly relevant number of events happen in the world: pure coincidence.

    --
    Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
  16. Repeat? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wasn't this submitted a day or two ago?

  17. Close enough to being secure by gsslay · · Score: 1

    the safe's design allows for a margin of error to compensate for humans getting their combination slightly wrong

    Seriously? The safe is designed to say "Wrong number, but meh, close enough."

    1. Re:Close enough to being secure by geekmux · · Score: 1

      the safe's design allows for a margin of error to compensate for humans getting their combination slightly wrong

      Seriously? The safe is designed to say "Wrong number, but meh, close enough."

      Yes, seriously. I've opened Sentry safes before and knew I had screwed up the combination, only to find the safe opening because I was apparently close enough.

      Sadly, the safe manufacturer had to design this close-enough feature into their product because humans who want to own cheap safes can't manage to turn a dial accurately. Probably also the same reason we've gone from dials to keypads and fingerprint sensors (which will be cracked next month by a monkey armed with a pack of gummy bears)

  18. Caper movies of tomorrow by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Does this mean that the next Hollywood heist will contain the line "Bite my shiny metal ass!"?

  19. sentry safes are mainly for fire protection by iggymanz · · Score: 1

    Sentry makes fire protection boxes. Those are not safes to protect again anything but the thief who only has a couple minutes to work. You can see average joes with a prybar and a sledge hammer (to force the bar into the steel coating the concrete) open these safes in less than 15 minutes.

    In fact the mechanism of these "safes" is very much like a bicycle padlock, not a real safe or vault's lock.

  20. Keypad safes by studean · · Score: 1

    True story: I got an old keypad safe from a company I used to work for. Nobody knew the combination or had the backup key, so it was just dead weight. When I got it home, I started running through all the possibilities that I could think of to come up with a device to crack it. Would I use an Arduino? LEGO robot? Manually push buttons until I figured it out? Nope. I just opened the battery compartment. Actually, I removed the keypad housing, too. I found a header of some sort that I thought I'd try wiring something up to, until I noticed that there were only two wires going from the inside of the safe to the outside of the safe. "Surely," I thought, "it wouldn't be THAT easy..." I attached the two wires to the positive and negative leads on the battery pack and heard a "click". The safe opened right up! I thought about doing something "cool" with it like bypass the keypad entirely with a magnetic reed switch and a special ring, but life happened and I never went back to the it. Just goes to show that locks are only there to keep honest people out!