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Microsoft .NET Core 2.0 For Linux Released; Redhat Will Bundle Microsoft's .NET (zdnet.com)
Billly Gates writes: Microsoft recently released Visual Studio 15.3 for Windows and Visual Studio 7.1 for Mac with .NET core 2.0. In addition to porting Microsoft Code and SQL Server to Linux, they have ported .NET. Redhat will bundle .NET in their software offerings instead of relying on Mono. .NET core is Microsoft's open-source .NET platform which is not based off Mono and available for Linux, Mac, and Windows here.
This has got to be the seventh sign.
I think I will repent, while I still have a chance.
First law of people: People are generally stupid.
It's like MS haven't changed, instead of joining an existing project and improving it, they want to be in control.
Old Microsoft, you haven't changed.
Do not want
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
I'll pay to watch that.
I got Red Hat Linux running at home. What does .NET brings to Linux that I couldn't do on my Windows PCS?
You have to be able to trust your compiler...
I barely trust Microsoft to not release malware that infects other companies products. Why the hell would invite them into my OS if I don't have to.
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
Microsoft finally embraces OSS and all you do is bitch.
Linux in general lacks professionalism, especially in development practices, which results in low quality of the software. I think that Microsoft getting involved in Linux will finally take things to the next level.
Microsoft finally embraces OSS and all you do is bitch.
All that is left is extend and extinguish.
Long time Linux users will have seen exactly what's been happening: Linux has been slowing discarding its UNIX heritage, and has been becoming more Windows-like for a while now.
During its early years, we saw Linux tend to imitate Solaris, and to a lesser extent the other commercial UNIXes. But as they've faded away, we've seen Linux become more and more Windows-like.
Linux-oriented desktop environments like KDE and GNOME were the most obvious examples. They were clearly inspired by Windows, rather than UNIX desktop environments like CDE or NeWS or IRIX Interactive Desktop. GNOME 3 resembles the Windows Metro ideology.
Systemd has really accelerated the process. It brings ideas like binary logging and a monolithic architecture from Windows to Linux, for example. These are ideas that totally contradict with the traditional UNIX way of doing things.
Now the availability of .NET Core on Linux makes it even more Windows-like.
People familiar with FreeBSD and Solaris will see the differences clearly. Linux used to be a lot more like them than it was like Windows. But if you use a modern Linux distro today, it'll often feel closer to Windows than it will to FreeBSD or Solaris.
This is why we've seen so many long time Linux users move away from Linux, in favor of the *BSDs or macOS. When these people starting using Linux, often back in the 1990s, they used it because of how it adhered to the UNIX way of doing things. But now that so many modern Linux distros don't do this, these users have had to find better alternatives. So now they use FreeBSD, or OpenBSD, or NetBSD, or DragonflyBSD, or macOS. All of those OSes provide a much truer UNIX-like experience than Linux tends to these days.
Microsoft will secretly use this as another way to force Windows 10 on those who don't want it. Leave the office at night with RHEL running. Arrive at the office in the morning...Windows 10 is there to greet you.
"The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -Harlan Ellison
Mono is owned by Microsoft now anyways, so it is literally useless to use mono over dotnet as a second-source.
If only the FSF hadn't shuttered their dotgnut implementation because mono was more advanced, we wouldn't be in quite the dotnet quandry we are today.
Is it a Fake Visual Studio like this article says?
https://adtmag.com/articles/2017/05/10/vs-for-mac.aspx
"many developers on forum sites questioned if it's really the same IDE that Windows users have known and loved for years, or a refactored, rebadged and rebranded version of Xamarin Studio -- and no less than Xamarin chief Miguel de Icaza himself weighed in with some answers. "
"One typical reader comment on Hacker News said: "I find the naming 'Visual Studio for Mac' pretty deceptive, since apparently it is not anything like the win32 VS environment, but instead based on Xamarin Studio. Even the tagline is deceptive: 'The IDE you love, now on the Mac.'" "
... crap. When they actually port over the WPF (windows presentation foundation) so you can actually make beautiful drag-and-drop GUI applications in Linux and Windows using Visual Studio.
Until they add GUI, there's no point. And they 99% likely know that already. Without GUI, userland Windows programs won't target also Linux. The benefit to Microsoft is mostly in their direction, and not Linux.
I really hope that MS acquires Red Hat sometime soon.
I think that it would actually be the best thing for the Linux community if that happened.
Ideally it would be a huge wake-up call to Debian, and by extension Ubuntu. I don't think they'd want to deal with systemd, GNOME 3, and other software if it were primary developed by a MS-owned entity or a division of MS.
The ideal outcome of that would be Debian immediately ditching systemd in favor of OpenRC (or even sysvinit), along with GNOME 3 and GTK+ being ditched in favor of KDE and Qt.
If that happened, then Linux would regain what it has lost over the last decade. It would restore the reliability and trust we used to have in Linux, but that has been draining away with the rise of GNOME 3, GTK+ 3, and systemd.
Microsoft bought out Ximian or Xamaran or whatever the last iteration was called a few years ago, so even if you use mono instead of .Net Core 2.0, you're still stuck using a shitty Microsoft owned product, which if it wasn't backdoored today, probably will tomorrow.
It is truly becoming a dark time in computer history. At least half of the games available for linux are Unity/DotNet based, and all of the CPUs/SoCs/Motherboards/GPUs are either locked down or backdoored themselves now as well.
What is there left to look forward to as the hackers, crackers, engineers, neckbeards, and progressive social reformers of this generation (not the alt-left, alt-right types, the kind actually trying to move forward humanity so we can become something greater than what we are.)
The first .net package update for Linux will require an automatic update to Windows 10 with no way to opt out.
Just click on the EULA I accept button, FFS
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
KDE is windows inspired, Gnome is mac inspired.
it's a trap!
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
The 3 E's?
Embrace,
Extend,
Extinguish.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
From that page,
"Embrace, extend, and extinguish",[1] also known as "Embrace, extend, and exterminate",[2] is a phrase that the U.S. Department of Justice found[3] was used internally by Microsoft[4] to describe its strategy for entering product categories involving widely used standards, extending those standards with proprietary capabilities, and then using those differences to disadvantage its competitors.
Just because they have failed at it recently in other product lines does not mean they have no desire to protect their original core OS business.
This would be useful if it had Windows.Forms and WPF (i.e. it wasn't the "core").
We have large deployment of computers (thousands) in the company currently running some form of windows w/ .net programs. If this was a complete .net port, we could dump all of those boxes and replace them with Linux.
Everything has become more Windows like than the other way around. Binary is just another word for compressed and Windows has moved past that to tokenized interpreted which is even more compressed still, but you go ahead and use as much spacetime as you want.
It compiles to bytecode, which can be turned into compilable c# or vb.net by a third party tool, Ilspy, which is open source and by default opens itself to show you its own decompilation.
So now your comment makes no sense. You don't have to trust, you can verify every line.
You clearly haven't used Gnome 3.
Onda Technology Institute
I would have thought that .NET, being effectively a substitute for Java for almost the same class of applications, doesn't substantially change the direction in which Linux distributions are heading since Java had already been present in them for quite some time.
Ezekiel 23:20
Gnome started out trying to emulate windows 95/98.
Then apple OS X got big.
Only then did the abomination known as gnome 3 come into existence.
Th gnome 3 devs have, for a decade, ditched Linux and gnome and used apple products primarily. They sit around "working" on gnome without really using gnome for real work. And by working, I mean cutting some code and then masturbating continually over how "sexy" and OS X like gnome has become.
The same goes for that stupid cunt lennart. He doesn't actually use Linux for anything over than making systemd. He's a laptop user. H is not a system or network admin. Ergo he is currently completely unqualified to write an init system. Choke on a buffet of dicks lennart.
Who the fuck is gonna write .net apps for Linux? Java rules the Linux world.
A substitute for Java? It's like saying Spanish is a substitute for English because it uses the same alphabet.
Tired of my customary (Score:1)
But who would you root for, do you want Microsoft or Poettering in your Linux?
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
That analogy works much better than you intended
Long time Linux users will have seen exactly what's been happening: Linux has been slowing discarding its UNIX heritage, and has been becoming more Windows-like for a while now.
Long time Linux user here - I have been using linux since the days of Slackware on 80+ floppies, when the kernel version was 0.9. I don't think Linux is becoming Windows like - it is more like Windows is coming around to the fact that the UNIX model is in fact the better one. What we have been seeing is that there are more Windows style applications - the graphical desktop on Linux is still only an application layer, thankfully, and can be left out without much loss of functionality (OK, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit here). And happily, we don't have to run .net, which is little more than what Microsoft would have wanted the JVM to be, only they didn't get to dictate things that time around.
My own experience with .net is limited - due to work I'm forced to use 1 .net application, which I keep in a VM running Windows. It has plenty of resources and is all alone in there, yet it still manages to run out of network sockets and other resources, sometimes even before I have put it to any use. Our developers still haven't managed to figure out why, because it is apparently un-debuggable. If this is generally the way with .net, I can't see Linux being overwhelmed by a massive influx of superior applications.
While I agree in general still how is MacOS more UNIXy than Linux?
It's a trick.. get an axe.
>My own experience with .net is limited - due to work I'm forced to use 1 .net application, which I keep in a VM running Windows. It has plenty of resources and is all alone in there, yet it still manages to run out of network sockets and other resources, sometimes even before I have put it to any use. Our developers still haven't managed to figure out why, because it is apparently un-debuggable. If this is generally the way with .net, I can't see Linux being overwhelmed by a massive influx of superior applications.
No that is the way of badly programmed application and i guess bad developers.
(Not the GP AC.)
If you squint enough you can see the darwin underneath, but if nothing else it's very much its own thing, not a "me too" on someone else's bodges and kludges. Even if darwin is a rather horrible mashing-together of *BSD and mach. The upper parts are very much apple.
Moreover, though this isn't directly a Unix-y thing, there's a set of rules (a new one for every OS release, natch) that require applications to sport a look-and-feel compatible to other applications on the same system, regardless of vendor. That gives a vastly better user experience than what linux and windows both manage to offer. While Unix is firmly rooted in the command line and the collection of utilities is pretty much a zoo, by and large they can be relied upon to work together. In fact if an utility does not play well with others, it is firmly the fault of that utility. So if you again squint enough, you could perhaps argue that macos has some Unix-y flavour to its graphical user interface experience: The parts work reasonably well together.
That eminently is not true of windows, and gnome and kde only deliver something vaguely like it if you use their blessed apps, where for macos it makes little difference which app you choose, since they all are expected to conform to a common set of user interface rules.
Personally I'm mighty ticked off at linux for going the windows way but even more disappointed in FreeBSD for going the linux way, and losing essential usability in the process. There is, IMO, currently nothing that counts as "usable", it's all "making do" to various degrees.
Go back 5-10 years and look at how VB was used and abused by self defined "programmers" who were accountants, MBA, engineering managers, and even some VP's. Their applications sometimes "worked", but usually under the umbrella of "just because you could doesn't mean you should".
I'd wager .NET is just v2.0 of this issue. Easy to use programming languages do not make people _good_ programmers. Just as a new cheap motorcycle doesn't make people good riders, or a new type of firearm doesn't make an untrained user more likely to hit a(n intended) target.
- Sig
It's a trap!
Nice analogy. Java and .NET are indeed very close to each other in most traits, just like Spanish and English. Unlike, say, Haskell and Forth, or APL and Prolog (or Chinese and Amharic...).
Ezekiel 23:20
Long time Linux users will have seen exactly what's been happening: Linux has been slowing discarding its UNIX heritage, and has been becoming more Windows-like for a while now.
Long-time Linux users will not have seen this, because it is not what is happening, except in your imagination.
Systemd has really accelerated the process.
It has not. There is no such process. That is not to say that systemd is all fine. It is not.
People familiar with FreeBSD and Solaris will see the differences clearly.
I am familiar with both, since many years. With that in mind...
But if you use a modern Linux distro today, it'll often feel closer to Windows than it will to FreeBSD or Solaris.
As a long-term user of all of them, I disagree with your assessment. In my opinion, you are wrong.
This is why we've seen so many long time Linux users move away from Linux, in favor of the *BSDs or macOS.
Exactly zero of my long-time Linux users have moved away from Linux to any of the *BSDs or to MacOS.
In closing, my experience and anecdotes are worth just as much as yours, and I disagree with several of your statements.
Not that you will care one iota about that, of course.
That's funny. He's not a sysadmin or network administrator so he's not qualified to develop software. Ok.
I tried to switch to Gentoo, but it is still compiling.
GTK and QT are portable, just use those for .NET apps and it's cross platform already.
Also this is not important for desktop apps, this is for web hosting and server side logic. Tons of stuff is in .NET on this side of the equation.
look at how VB was used and abused by self defined "programmers" who were accountants, MBA, engineering managers, and even some VP's
YEARS ago an engineer I worked with spent two years working on an elaborate script in Excel. It was his masterpiece and then we upgraded to Office 95 which ditched the excel macro engine for VBA. He was crushed.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
I don't think Linux is becoming Windows like - it is more like Windows is coming around to the fact that the UNIX model is in fact the better one.
They both borrow features from each other. However, there have been some pretty big changes to Linux that would have sounded like the signs of the apocalypse. For example (in no particular order): .NET from Microsoft (not just mono, which I equate to wine, but provided by Microsoft and shipped with RHEL!?!?!)
* ACL's
* selinux
* systemd init
* dbus
* gconf (and gsettings / dconf)
* pulse audio
* graphical boot
*
* merged desktop displays (instead of 0.0 and 0.1; aka xinerama, etc)
* binary logs (systemd)
* etc
Sadly, I think it's inevitable. In the early days of Linux, most, if not all, of the devs were coming from the UNIX world, or at least had some time on those other systems (I actively used SunOS, IRIX, HPUX, Solaris, FreeBSD, and Linux, all around the time of the release of version 2 of the Linux kernel). Now, most of those are dead, and the others are far more rare. Our younger devs may grow up using Linux, but they're also using Windows, and rarely any other unix-like OS.... so of course we get many mannerisms and such from Windows :-(
As a long time UNIX user, I find the idea that BSD, macOS, CDE, or NeWS represent "the UNIX way" ridiculous.
XFCE still looks as a UNIX to me. I have 12 (24) fullscreen frameless black&white text consoles in XFCE with alt-f1..alt-f12 hotkeys and this is all I needed on my 386/4MB and all I need today.
That's a big part of the systemd push. Systemd represents an active effort to destroy linux and embrace everything shitty about Windows.
There is no network or system which is made better by destroying Unix heritage. I openly advocate you can identify the mentally retarded 100% of the time by their position on systemd.
Wasn't KDE 'inspired' by CDE - at very least in terms of its acronym. But seriously, CDE was kind of Windows-like in its day. It's just that it was modeled after Windows 3. But then Windows 3 may well have been modeled after Unix GUIS from that period...
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
This is being driven by Microsoft, not RedHat. Mono started out based on the assumption that - because it's Microsoft (yes, it was that long ago), .NET would end up snaring a huge developer share, and Linux would wither if C# developers couldn't code for it. But since then, the internet changed a few things. Yes, there are still C# developers, but they're not the majority. Microsoft wants to lure developers to it's Azure cloud, and needs to support Linux for that to happen.
I.e., the assumption today is that if you want the developers, you need to be on Linux. That doesn't mean Linux developers need to actually use .NET, just because it's there...
Yes, .NET from Microsoft introduces an MS dependency for Linux developers that use it. But how many Linux devs actually do? What .NET on Linux does accomplish is to take what wind is left out of the sails of Mono. But Mono was pretty much a dead end anyway. RedHat spent lots of money toward its development, and probably doesn't want to have to continue maintaining the stuff that .NET replaces. Presumably the GNOME hooks for Mono will be adjusted to work with .NET, and what few apps actually are coded in Mono will continue to work. Beyond that, sure, internet back-end developers would do well to be wary of investing too heavily on Microsoft-controlled technologies. And desktop Linux developers aren't really being given anything of use here...
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
It has plenty of resources and is all alone in there, yet it still manages to run out of network sockets and other resources, sometimes even before I have put it to any use
Probably using HttpClient not as a singleton. Its connection pooling will not release a socket for several minutes because of best practices with Http connections. "Undebugable" is just a scapegoat to not having strong enough problem solving skills. I've discovered several concurrency issues with .Net that I solved just by thinking about the characteristics of my application and how I coded it. 80%+ of the time that I debug a problem, it's entirely in my mind. Tens of thousands of lines of code, extremely high amounts of concurrency with many micro-optimizations, using many black-box libraries and the .Net framework. I've found hosts of issues.
.Net. Some of the bugs are so complex and rare that it took MS months of back-and-forth with their customers to figure out the issue. Took me only a few days to independently figure it out on my own by looking at my code, understanding how my code should work, and figuring out how it must not be working.
I can't tell you how many times a co-worker told me my program crashed or deadlocked and I replied with "can't be my code", only to find an official bug in
Work on them reasoning skills.
He was more like a fellow traveler, methinks. They can't possibly have paid him enough money to sell his soul like that, 15 years ago.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Agreed. NET 1.0/1.1 was a nightmare of stuff that was outright broken. NET 4.0, which has the source published, is a basket case if you ever care to read through it, in particular the window controls. I get a lot of that "can't debug" where I work now - the Indians are very stupid but also very secretive about their code in an attempt to lock out anybody who isn't very stupid.
Spanish and English are pretty far apart on the language tree. English is a Germanic language, and Spanish is a romance language derived from Latin. You have to go all the way back to Indo-European to find a common root, which IIRC is a theorized language as it's so far back there's no records about it. English does borrow a lot from the romance family through the Normal influence, which is French.
One huge difference between English and Spanish is the information density. They're almost at opposite ends of the spectrum: Spanish has a fairly low ranking in this metric, whereas English has one of the highest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
Nothing new under the sun.
He didn't say ALL software. He said an INIT system.
Nice try though. Fucking shill.
Learn2read.
Just because you have one shitty application your statement on limitation of .NET sounds really funny. Clearly the limitation is your knowledge about .NET. I have seen as many shitty and slow application written in Java as in .NET. These are just tools and what really matters are the skills of developer.
You failed to grasp the point I was trying to make as in both languages (computer) are much different than one thinks. I'm a native speaker of both Spanish and English so I know very well the differences even if they share the same alphabet. It's the reason I didn't choose French over Spanish.
Tired of my customary (Score:1)
English does borrow a lot from the romance family through the Normal influence, which is French.
French is anything but normal. ;)
One huge difference between English and Spanish is the information density. They're almost at opposite ends of the spectrum: Spanish has a fairly low ranking in this metric, whereas English has one of the highest.
As the table shows, (native) Spanish speakers tend to speak more quickly than their English-speaking counterparts, so the information rate in the spoken language is comparable (although English is still slightly ahead).
Spanish speakers tend to speak more quickly than their English-speaking counterparts, so the information rate in the spoken language is comparable
Actually, the whole point of that research paper was that *all* human languages seem to have roughly equivalent information rates, because ones with poorer information density make up for it with higher speaking rates. My point in bringing it up was only to show that Spanish and English really are very different languages as seen by the information density.