Bitcoin Prices Surge Past $5,000 Three Weeks After Passing $4,000 (fortune.com)

Re:Woohoo! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 08:11 · Score: 5, Informative

Bitcoin is not an investment, it is a gamble.

Hope is not an investment strategy.

Remember the dot com bubble by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 08:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

Nasdaq hits 5000, everyone started piling in, and then came the big crash. This is no different because many bought stock in companies that are gone or worthless. It's a sham.

Re:Remember the dot com bubble by ShanghaiBill · 2017-09-02 08:30 · Score: 3, Interesting

Nasdaq hits 5000, everyone started piling in, and then came the big crash. This is no different
Actually, this is different. A stock is inherently worth the value of future profits. Once it became clear these companies would never be significantly profitable, it was clear that the stocks were way overvalued. Bitcoins have no inherent value, so any valuation is just as "valid" as any other. People were predicting imminent collapse when Bitcoin passed the "ridiculous" value of $1.
Re:Remember the dot com bubble by ShanghaiBill · 2017-09-02 14:23 · Score: 3, Interesting

Lol, you're actually using the argument that it's worthless to say it's not worth less!!!
No inherent value is not the same as valueless. Here are some other things that have little or no inherent value:
1. Gold
2. Diamonds
3. Dollars
Re:Remember the dot com bubble by Billly+Gates · 2017-09-03 00:57 · Score: 1

Nasdaq hits 5000, everyone started piling in, and then came the big crash. This is no different
Actually, this is different. A stock is inherently worth the value of future profits. Once it became clear these companies would never be significantly profitable, it was clear that the stocks were way overvalued. Bitcoins have no inherent value, so any valuation is just as "valid" as any other. People were predicting imminent collapse when Bitcoin passed the "ridiculous" value of $1.
Sorry Bill. Stocks do not pay dividends anymore so no future profits. Just some guy MIGHT pay more than what you bought it for. With bitcoin at least you can buy things with it. I think when the next recession hits Gold and bitcoin is going to skyrocket and you are going to kick yourself when you didn't buy in at only $5,000. Serious hundreds of thousands of dollars per coin is right around the corner once all the big banks start buying them up when a recession hits. Where else are you going to put your money?

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Re:Remember the dot com bubble by kiminator · 2017-09-05 05:02 · Score: 1

I generally put Bitcoin in the same bucket as gold, whose value is also largely driven by speculation, and which also experiences very large price fluctuations.
Dollars are an extremely different beast, however. Dollars, and any other national fiat currency, are backed by their country's national bank, who manually adjusts the money supply to keep their value stable. This active management of the value of dollars prevents the sort of asset bubbles that gold and Bitcoin are subject to, because investors generally aren't foolish enough to bet against an actor with as much power to maintain the price of the currency as the central bank. The risks of a fiat currency are very, very different (and vastly lower) than the risks associated with Bitcoin or gold.
Primarily, the risks are that the forces driving inflation or deflation do not outpace the central bank's ability to correct. This can happen if the cost of servicing the national debt gets too high. Or if there is a deflationary shock that is just too large for the bank to correct for. There's also some risk that the central bank will change policy and choose a different inflation target (or a different target altogether). The first risk is tiny in most nations. The second risk is much higher, but is more a problem for the health of the economy than the value of the currency. The third risk is moderate, but the costs aren't very big.

Whatever by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 08:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's basically one big ponzi scheme, let's wait and see who's left holding the bag. Can always jump in you think the game will be played a while longer, but when it ends, it will end quickly.

Re:Whatever by ShanghaiBill · 2017-09-02 08:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's basically one big ponzi scheme
Bitcoin may go up, or it may go down, but it absolutely is not a Ponzi scheme. If you think it is, then you don't understand Bitcoins, you don't understand what a Ponzi scheme is, or both.
Re:Whatever by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 08:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's basically one big ponzi scheme
Bitcoin may go up, or it may go down, but it absolutely is not a Ponzi scheme. If you think it is, then you don't understand Bitcoins, you don't understand what a Ponzi scheme is, or both.
From the Wikipedia page you linked to: "a Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator generates returns for older investors through revenue paid by new investor". Every dollar that comes out of bitcoin needs to be supplied by a new investor. If new investors stop coming into bitcoin the value drops to zero. Bitcoin is the dictionary definition of a ponzi scheme.
Re:Whatever by ShanghaiBill · 2017-09-02 09:26 · Score: 2

If Satoshi were ever allowed to cash in his exclusive pre-owned block of coins, then it would be a Ponzi scheme.
Nonsense. Satoshi's coin stash is public knowledge, recorded in the blockchain. There is absolutely nothing fraudulent about it. Claiming that this makes it a "Ponzi scheme" makes as much sense as saying Google is a Ponzi scheme because Larry and Sergey have founder's stock.
Charles Ponzi ran a Ponzi scheme. Bernie Madoff ran a Ponzi scheme. They lied, cheated, and defrauded their clients, and went to prison. Satoshi lied to no one, cheated no one, and defrauded no one. Bitcoin may or may not be a good investment, but what you see is what you get. It is an open system, and win or lose, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Re:Whatever by Dunbal · 2017-09-02 09:45 · Score: 1

Down is pretty much guaranteed at this point.

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Re:Whatever by Powercntrl · 2017-09-02 09:57 · Score: 1

Bitcoin may go up, or it may go down, but it absolutely is not a Ponzi scheme. If you think it is, then you don't understand Bitcoins, you don't understand what a Ponzi scheme is, or both.
Yes, a ponzi scheme is an investment scam from the get-go, because it is mathematically predestined to collapse.
Bitcoin is more like tulip mania, driven by the greater fool theory. The irony is, unlike tulip bulbs, Bitcoin's rarity could be easily adjusted by forking the coin (yet again) and then, coins for everyone! Everyone can be rich!
Heck, if I was better at coding, I'd do it. I'd call it "Bitcoin Inflation Totally Couldn't Hurt". When everyone loses their money, then I'd get to say "Well, ain't that a B.I.T.C.H.."

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Re: Whatever by LynnwoodRooster · 2017-09-02 11:34 · Score: 2

Until that company starts producing a net profit, yes - it is a bit of a Ponzi scheme.

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Bitcoin is... by MindPrison · 2017-09-02 08:15 · Score: 4, Interesting

...one of those things in life you'll either stand idle by and watch it like it was a show, you'll think "oh why - oh why did I not invest when it was new and cheap", and when it plummets down, you'll sigh a relief and think to yourself - oh, I'm glad I didn't do that, those fools - or you'll be a part of it, getting free money if you pump it out at the right time.

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What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.

Re:Bitcoin is... by Dunbal · 2017-09-02 09:51 · Score: 2

one of those things in life you'll either stand idle by and watch it like it was a show, you'll think "oh why - oh why did I not invest when it was new and cheap"
Kind of like the stock market. Why didn't I buy Apple before the 7:1 stock split. Why didn't I buy Google. Why didn't I buy Amazon. Why didn't I buy Ali Baba - oh wait, that one I did.
But it's ok. Life is a lifetime of missed opportunities. And then you die. The point of life is enjoying the opportunities you DID seize.

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Re:Bitcoin is... by Dunbal · 2017-09-02 09:53 · Score: 1

With stocks, you are buying ownership in a company. You don't lose until you sell or the stock goes worthless.
If you know what you're doing, you don't lose period.

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Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Re:Bitcoin is... by Powercntrl · 2017-09-02 10:11 · Score: 1

...one of those things in life you'll either stand idle by and watch it like it was a show, you'll think "oh why - oh why did I not invest when it was new and cheap"
Here's the part most people miss: High risk investments are only for the rich, to make themselves richer.
Most of us who work 9-5 for a living would rather have money in our bank accounts than tied up in wild speculation.

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DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
Re:Bitcoin is... by phantomfive · 2017-09-02 10:22 · Score: 1

you'll think "oh why - oh why did I not invest when it was new and cheap",
There's always another chance to make money. Right now, you can place an order for stock, which by the end of the week will make more money than if you had bought bitcoin. Identifying that stock is of course the tough part, but trying to figure it out will get you more than lamenting the high quality of your hindsight.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Bitcoin is... by Comrade+Ogilvy · 2017-09-02 11:46 · Score: 1

Well said.
Re:Bitcoin is... by 0111+1110 · 2017-09-02 12:49 · Score: 1

Well yeah it is only rich people that generally have money for investments. The whole bitcoin thing was an exception though. In the beginning even a poor person (by first world standards at least) could have mined and/or purchased it when it was cheap and now would be very very very rich. It is money that just came out of nowhere. I think most of us who can remember the very first slashdot stories about bitcoin are kicking ourselves for doubting and ignoring it. It turned out to be more of a speculative bubble investment than a real currency though. I wonder how many people really guessed this would happen. Limited supply yes, but why is it so highly valued? It's not even completely anonymous. It reminds me of the real estate market before the most recent bubble. It just seems like you can't lose investing money in a cryptocurrency. Even if it crashes in a week or a month it is back up again.

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Re:Bitcoin is... by ceoyoyo · 2017-09-02 14:33 · Score: 1

You don't have to know what you're doing. In fact, it's better if you don't "know what you're doing."
Buy index funds or throw darts at the financial pages. Don't ever check the value of your stocks.
Re:Bitcoin is... by Jeremi · 2017-09-02 15:15 · Score: 2

If you know what you're doing, you don't lose period.
... and its contrapositive: if you lost, then you didn't know what you were doing.
Therefore every investor knows what they are doing, right up until the moment when they don't.

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Re:Bitcoin is... by BasilBrush · 2017-09-02 20:11 · Score: 1

If you think it's possible to only gain in the stock market, then you certainly don't know what you are doing.
Re:Bitcoin is... by smallfries · 2017-09-02 21:24 · Score: 1

There are other options: I bought in at about $200 and cashed out at about $2500. It was a good ride but I was not expecting it to behave like this after the fork. There is also the sadness of leaving money on the table.

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Re:Bitcoin is... by mikkig · 2017-09-02 22:09 · Score: 1

care to share so we all know "what we are doing?"

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Re:Bitcoin is... by Dunbal · 2017-09-03 03:19 · Score: 1

If you think it's possible to only gain in the stock market, then you certainly don't know what you are doing.
Of course not. However it is also possible to offload the risk onto someone else. The problem is not the stock market, it's the trader's own greed.

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Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Re:Bitcoin is... by Dunbal · 2017-09-03 03:35 · Score: 1

Obviously you think you're right and I'm wrong, so what point would there be in sharing anything? Let me continue to be wrong, and you go ahead and make all your right moves and we'll all agree that I'm an idiot who knows nothing. If that's not the case then it's even worse and you think there's some sort of trick, game or scheme to "beat" the market. Save yourself some pain and some money and realize that there isn't. All there is is hard work.

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Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.

Re:Woohoo! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 08:19 · Score: 4, Informative

All investments are an "educated" gamble

Bubble Bubble Boil'n Trouble by Ayano · 2017-09-02 08:20 · Score: 1

We all know where this is headed.

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Re:Bubble Bubble Boil'n Trouble by supremebob · 2017-09-02 23:26 · Score: 1

Honestly, I'm not sure where it's headed. Sure, the value will probably crash back down to a three digit value in the short term, but five years from now it might be worth $20,000 each.
This really depends on how willing the world governments will allow the currency to exist, knowing that most of the transactions are being used for less than legal purposes (drug buys, kiddie porn, money laundering, cryptolocker ransoms, etc).

White rabbit by Applehu+Akbar · 2017-09-02 08:22 · Score: 1

Might I remind everyone that it is now September, the month when pins are most often stuck in bubbles.

Re:White rabbit by Dunbal · 2017-09-02 09:54 · Score: 1

Nope, I give it a good couple years yet. The bubble pops when the last idiot isn't willing to pay 1 million for a BTC, and the idiot before him is wondering how come he can't get his money out.

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Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Re: White rabbit by Billly+Gates · 2017-09-03 01:01 · Score: 1

Bitcoin will go up in value once a recession hits just like gold. It is a great time to buy if you have the money as stocks do not pay dividends anymore anyway so it's no different.
When the next recession hits and prices surge past $50,000 or more per coin is the time to sell and buy stocks. Yes, it sounds ludicrous but people said the same about gold. With trillions upon trillions of assets Wall Street has you think they want to keep their money in stocks?? Hell no, gold and bitcoin will skyrocket and every investor will fight with trillions of dollars to buy these so I think $50,000 maybe even $500,000 a coin is quite realistic as we have nowhere near 1,000,000,000,000 invested yet.

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404 cannot regulate. by stooo · 2017-09-02 08:22 · Score: 1

you can't regulate internationnal crowd.

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Re: 404 cannot regulate. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 08:27 · Score: 1

It's the U.S. Either you're Europe or Asia, and you'll do whatever the U.S. says because you like money, or you're somewhere else and you'll do whatever the U.S. says because you like not getting blown up.
Re: 404 cannot regulate. by stooo · 2017-09-02 18:35 · Score: 1

That process is not called regulation.

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beheaded by stooo · 2017-09-02 08:24 · Score: 1

We all know where this is be headed.

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Greater Fool Theory by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 08:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

The belief that there is always someone out there willing to pay more and bug it off you.

Currently, it's Bitcoin, Tesla, and Amazon flying to new highs for no reason.

Re:Greater Fool Theory by Dunbal · 2017-09-02 09:44 · Score: 2

The belief that there is always someone out there willing to pay more and bug it off you.
And there is. Until suddenly there isn't. And least I can short Amazon and Tesla.

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Re:Greater Fool Theory by ShanghaiBill · 2017-09-02 10:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

And least I can short Amazon and Tesla.
You can also short Bitcoin. Go to Google an type in "How to short bitcoin". Several links will tell you how to do it.
Before you do that, you might want to understand why Bitcoin is going up. To understand that, try Googling "Currency controls in China".
China is running huge current account surpluses, and moving money out of the country is severely restricted, yet the value of the RMB relative to the USD has been weak. Why? Where is the money going? Think about that, and then think about whether shorting bitcoins is really such a bright idea.
Re:Greater Fool Theory by LynnwoodRooster · 2017-09-02 11:28 · Score: 1

Of those three, only one is actually producing a profit by offering a tangible good and/or service.

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Re: Greater Fool Theory by nitehawk214 · 2017-09-02 11:36 · Score: 1

Because Bitcoin can't go to zero and nobody has a vested interest in making it crash.

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Re:Greater Fool Theory by aberglas · 2017-09-02 12:25 · Score: 1

I sure wish that had been one of the idiots that bought bitcoins when they hit $100.
Re:Greater Fool Theory by aliquis · 2017-09-02 13:49 · Score: 1

Currently, it's Bitcoin, Tesla, and Amazon flying to new highs for no reason.
That's of course false.
Bitcoin as money may be used for more and more transactions and if nothing else people obviously are more interesting in keeping that as money rather than something else, the former is a reason for a price increase.
People are getting more and more into the electrical car, however other companies are too which could mean faster competition so .. not necessarily great for Tesla, trust in them and their capability to deliver though likely increase over time. I assume they already may have had a very high valuation based on expectations and when they actually deliver results too rather than just being expectations ..
I've at-least seen one article mention how Amazon outcome other retailers, the more that happen and the more people notice that of course they will be more interested in Amazon.
So there are real reasons for all three. Maybe you don't think that justify the costs but there's definitely reasons.
Re: Greater Fool Theory by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 03:56 · Score: 1

I considered buying $100 worth when it was well under $1, just for fun. In theory, if I had, I could have retired tomorrow, except I'd probably have assumed the top of the market long ago and sold already.

Keep in mind by Interfacer · 2017-09-02 08:43 · Score: 2

In the case of bitcoin, it is used to trade with. exchanges like Bittrex trade everything against bitcoin. All money has to funnel through bitcoin either directly or indirectly. All other arguments and benefits aside, as long as bitcoin remains the de facto gold standard backing the entire crypto world, and as long as money goes into the crypto world, the price of bitcoin is not going to go down (volatility aside).

Re:Keep in mind by Ecuador · 2017-09-02 08:55 · Score: 1

But it has some serious limitations, like the number of transactions per second - even with the recent upgrade it still seems dismal. I won't do any predictions though - I am completely mystified by the continuous price increase, I was pretty sure the price would have "corrected" by now...

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Re:Keep in mind by Interfacer · 2017-09-02 09:03 · Score: 1

Oh, I know. The way bitcoin is used currently is way outside of the scale it was used even just a year ago. Both Bitcoin and Ethereum are working on projects to get fast transfers. When that finally happens, we can send large transfers around the globe near instantaneously without having to give the banks or paypal an arm and a leg.
Re:Keep in mind by Bruce+Perens · 2017-09-02 09:08 · Score: 1

If you had not already arrived at the conclusion that currency is a fiction, this should bring you there.

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Bruce Perens.
Re:Keep in mind by Baloroth · 2017-09-02 09:35 · Score: 2

It's not even that, there are fundamental limitations to cryptocurrency that I'm not sure *can* be eliminated. Blockchain size, for example. The design of cryptocurrency is such that to known the amount of coins in a wallet, you need to know the entire blockchain. Currently, the Bitcoin blockchain is 130 GB, for 250 million transactions (incidentally, that's about as many transactions as Visa handles per day). That's already fairly large for consumer miners (it means you can't realistically store the chain on your phone, which means using Bitcoin on mobile requires lightweight clients that undermine the point of Bitcoin in the first place), you increase the transaction rate and the total size will explode into the terabyte region, at which point you start needing large servers to even hold the blockchain and know how much money anyone has. The future of Bitcoin's blockchain requires resources individuals generally don't have access to, which means it will be controlled by large corporations. The only way around that is to use some technique that trims the blockchain, but I'm not sure if that's even technically possible. In any case, with the design of Bitcoin as it is now, it absolutely cannot be used by the common consumer, even if you fix all the problems with transaction rates and fees. It's a clever technical experiment, but it's intrinsically flawed as a currency.

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Re:Keep in mind by Dunbal · 2017-09-02 09:57 · Score: 1

For whatever the exchange can front run you for, 2 days later.

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Re:Keep in mind by Dunbal · 2017-09-02 11:08 · Score: 1

No it's up to you to educate yourself, not me to educate you.

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Re:Keep in mind by LynnwoodRooster · 2017-09-02 11:49 · Score: 1

So when it is time to convert that Bitcoin into actual cash - who does it, and why don't they take a cut (like banks or PayPal does today)?

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Re:Keep in mind by Kjella · 2017-09-02 12:34 · Score: 1

The only way around that is to use some technique that trims the blockchain, but I'm not sure if that's even technically possible.
Sure it would, just have the blockchain sign a complete account balance and everyone could restart from there. It could be vulnerable to a 51% attack totally rewriting the balance but you probably also make some sort of rejection mechanism saying that if >1% of the blockchain rejects the account summary you continue from the last universally acknowledged one. And some nodes would probably stay in full history mode anyway. That doesn't seem like a particularly hard problem, compared to all the other ones...

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Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Re:Keep in mind by petermgreen · 2017-09-02 12:37 · Score: 1

There are a couple of ideas for trimming the blockchain.
One is "segregated witness", seperating the signatures from the actual ledger. The idea being that while old ledger information needs to be kept forever there is no real reason to keep signatures around forever.
The other is the "lighting network". The idea is that small transactions can take place mostly off-blockchain with the blockchain used as an enforcement mechanism in the case of misbehaving parties and as a mechanism for processing the final net transfer.
How well will these work out in practice? I don't know.

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Re:Keep in mind by Dunbal · 2017-09-02 13:10 · Score: 1

This difference explains much.
Only in your mind. You must be a pretty terrible scientist. You assigned me the identity of beancounter. Next you use this assignment to explain your superiority. Congrats with your hypothesis - except of course if your first assumption is false, everything that follows is also false. I am no beancounter. I also am a scientist. But you see intelligent people enjoy educating themselves across many fields. I'll let you work out what your aversion to learning for yourself says about you.

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Re:Keep in mind by smallfries · 2017-09-02 21:28 · Score: 1

They do: but most of the exchanges are taking smaller curs than the traditional banks e.g. 0.25%.

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Re:Keep in mind by LynnwoodRooster · 2017-09-03 02:44 · Score: 1

So kind of like when I send $500 to my buddy via PayPal. Of course, he doesn't pay a dime, and neither do I, so... I guess paying 0.25% is better than paying zero?

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Re:Keep in mind by Dunbal · 2017-09-03 04:34 · Score: 1

I can only conclude you do not know what you are talking about at all when it comes to actually selling bitcoin for traditional currency.
I can conclude that no one is "actually selling bitcoin for traditional currency" - hence the geometric increase in price. Buyers far outweigh sellers. For now.

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Re: One thing is for certain by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 08:43 · Score: 1

I'm not an economist, thought I will play a logic game. If Bitcoin has gone up this high, it must be related to volume trading driving the value up. I assume this is becaus a small group of investors are rapidly trading on a basically unregulated market. As the buzz caused stir, additional investors enter the market by routing percentages of funds (mutuals, hedge, etc...) which are financed through retirement plans, national treasuries, credit unions, etc... into the currency to allow large amounts of small trades to increase the bitcoin prices in small, almost unnoticeable increments aggregating into larger amounts.

If regulation is eventually placed on the share or a crash to theft causes the traders operating on volume to pull out, a crash can occur. As bitcoin is uninsured and there is no reliable method of regulating, I.E. freezing trading, the price can plummet leaving those investments and funds unsecured and worth nothing.

While we believe Bitcoin to be relatively secure mathematically, if someone were to find a means to factor the algorithm allowing for bypassing any checks and balances associated with the current algorithm, Bitcoin can go from $5000 to $0 overnight or even within minutes.

The result to investors could be mass loss...to people, lost retirement funds or worse. If too much of the world inflation occurs due to the mass unregulated and uninsured influx of a new currency drives inflation, it can cause market panic, rapid inflation or deflation of national currencies, etc...

Bitcoin is no longer an academic experiment. A Bitcoin fallout could be on the scale of an MCI Worldcom disaster to the market.

What the investors don't understand is that Bitcoin is only secure so long as it isn't factored. Bitcoin is a "hard problem" in math terms. Hard means hard... or as close to impossible as it gets... until someone identifies a new method which disproves it. This is why we don't say impossible but instead hard. It is entirely possible that a quantum computer could identify all possible Bitcoin values in seconds via brute force... though I must admit, I know about as much about quantum computers as I know of economy.

So, while I'm sitting with 2.1 bitcoins I mined on a $200 GPU 8 years ago and could theoretically lose $10,000 if Bitcoin goes bust... I have very little faith in the system... and I don't trust it.

P.S. I'm not the original poster of the comment you responded to. Just someone who finds it entertaining to play out dooms day scenarios when I believe I have an audience to listen.

People aren't getting rich off of Bitcoin... by ebrandsberg · 2017-09-02 08:50 · Score: 2, Insightful

They are getting rich by cashing out while others put their money in. Bitcoin is like a stock with no inherent value, but which is pumped in a pump and dump scheme. The only difference is that the people buying into it KNOW that the stock is a pump and dump, but are hoping to get off before everybody else stops piling in. Because it has no inherent value with which to compare it to, nobody can say that it is "overpriced", unlike a pump and dump stock however, so keeps going up. People will say "all currency has value simply because people trust it has value" but most currency is used to actually buy and trade for goods and services. Bitcoin, while it has SOME value for goods and services, is generally traded against other currencies. You get rich because the price of bitcoin goes up, vs. currency, you don't get rich just because you have Bitcoin.

That said, I expect that it will continue to go up, as people pile on the hype train, but at some point, the train will have a last stop, and everybody left on it at that time will realize that the last stop is just a cliff. Consider this--what happens if someone realizes there is some inherent flaw in the bitcoin blockchain system, and can corrupt it? How much value would be left?

Re:People aren't getting rich off of Bitcoin... by Interfacer · 2017-09-02 08:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's inherent value is that it is limited in supply AND used as a gold standard on exchanges to trade all other crypto coins against. The only way bitcoin will suffer lasting drops in price is if the entire crypto world diminishes. Until then, its use for trading is what gives it its increasing value.
Maybe in the future there will be a different standard. Some exchanges implement trading pairs against ethereum. So it may happen. But until then, bitcoin is safe.
Re:People aren't getting rich off of Bitcoin... by ebrandsberg · 2017-09-02 09:25 · Score: 2

All you are doing is extending the value to other things that also don't have value and saying that is why it has value. Everything in the crypto-currency markets have the same problem. Just because one pump and dump stock is used to trace between other pump and dump stocks doesn't make any one of them valuable. Until crypto-currencies are actually used to drive a reasonably significant percentage of transactions between consumers and businesses, there won't be any real inherent value. For this to happen, the price needs to stabilize, as right now, the currency value is effectively in a rapidly deflationary economy, where the price of goods is effectively getting smaller. This encourages hoarding of the currency, and prevents the actual economy from working. While the price of bitcoin keeps surging people won't use it for things outside of the crypto-currency markets. It must stabilize, and the entire design of it won't allow that. It will either keep surging or it will fall, stable is not what it is designed for.
Re:People aren't getting rich off of Bitcoin... by phantomfive · 2017-09-02 10:24 · Score: 1

It's probably more accurate to compare it to a Forex exchange. It behaves similarly, it has similar value.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:People aren't getting rich off of Bitcoin... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 10:50 · Score: 1

I've been spending $10k worth of crypto a week because of the reduced transaction costs. It has value. Only the stupid don't see that. It's got value in all sorts of ways. I don't have to pay 3% to the credit card companies when customers pay me in bitcoin. I'm making as much as 26x as much profit because we're accepting bitcoin and purchasing our raw materials in it. We both save 3% AND we get between 19-33% off of raw materials for my business because of it. This is over any other discounts. Bitcoin has made my business so much more competitive it isn't even funny. None of my competitors have any chance at competing with us because the margins on the products we sell are so thin. 1-5% profit jumps to 26-33%.
You can also see it at the consumer level. Go look at saveatpurse.com. You can purchase products off amazon for bitcoin. People with amazon gift cards they don't want buy your stuff and lose a bit, but that's the cost of ridding yourself of unwanted gift cards. Then the bitcoins get released to the buyer of your stuff upon delivery of the goods you bought with bitcoin. Works great. 19% to 33% depending on how long you can afford to wait. 19% will probably not result in a delay in your order shipping out. 33% might take a while.
Re:People aren't getting rich off of Bitcoin... by Kjella · 2017-09-02 10:53 · Score: 2

All you are doing is extending the value to other things that also don't have value and saying that is why it has value. Everything in the crypto-currency markets have the same problem. Just because one pump and dump stock is used to trace between other pump and dump stocks doesn't make any one of them valuable.
That's what *all* currencies are about... are there going to be telltale signs of people retreating to "safe" currencies... there's a reason why in times of trouble people invest in USD, swiss francs (I forget the TLA) and EUR it's because they're massive economies that won't fail without an economic Armageddon. Also precious metals like gold and silver that people assume will "always" be valuable without any real reason except for thousands of years of history.

While the price of bitcoin keeps surging people won't use it for things outside of the crypto-currency markets. It must stabilize, and the entire design of it won't allow that. It will either keep surging or it will fall, stable is not what it is designed for.
You're casually dismissing all the actual things bought and sold with bitcoin like they don't exist? Even if it happens to be illegal substances or various other dubious things they're real, as in people who don't give a shit about speculation but who buy bitcoins to buy it. And the dealers sell for "real money" too, as they can sell them to new buyers. They don't care what the going rate is, it's just a proxy. And between speculators and users you have a working currency, whether you deny it or not.

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Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Re:People aren't getting rich off of Bitcoin... by Rolgar · 2017-09-05 01:46 · Score: 1

Right now, a lot of people in China are trying to move money offshore, and Bitcoin is the way to do it with the least losses, heck right now, you get an increase while you hold the bitcoin before you get the money into it's destination currency. Since there are a limited number of Bitcoins, and a huge amount of money that is being moved, the extremely high cost of the Bitcoin is actually a feature because it allows a much greater amount of currency to be moved through Bitcoin. If this continues to be the case, Bitcoin will probably go down when the Chinese figure out how to stop individuals from getting their money into Bitcoin, or the Chinese economic bubble bursts, and nobody has the money they want to move out of China.

Re:Woohoo! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 09:08 · Score: 1

Not really, by that line of reasoning virtually everything is a gamble because we don't know what the future will hold.

Yup. That's how it works.

Is there a safe place to short BTC? by FunkSoulBrother · 2017-09-02 09:25 · Score: 1

Asking for a friend.

Not safe in terms of the volatility or the bet going bad, that's risk I'd be happy to assume. But if the bet goes good, a place where you can cash out 5+ digits of actual money without being raped on fees or a risk of some rando website shutting down and taking your real money with it?

Re:Is there a safe place to short BTC? by retchdog · 2017-09-02 10:40 · Score: 1

uh, who gives a shit? this is a financial investment strategy, not a moral judgement. lol

--
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
Re:Is there a safe place to short BTC? by FunkSoulBrother · 2017-09-05 05:31 · Score: 1

The answer appears to be 'no'.

Re:Woohoo! by AmazingRuss · 2017-09-02 09:36 · Score: 2

Free fuckings for all the latecomers!

The blockchain will survive, perhaps not bitcoin by perpenso · 2017-09-02 10:10 · Score: 2

Blockchain technology will survive and likely be incredibly important to the future of banking and finance. However that is something completely different from bitcoin. Bitcoin is just one of many users of the technology.

For Wall Street, the blockchain is the future, bitcoin is just a current speculative instrument. Wall street has played a large role in the current price spike, if their attention moves elsewhere a huge crash is likely.

Keep in mind that bitcoin has already gone off plan. It is no longer under the control of the masses, ordinary people and their computers, with respect to maintaining the public ledger. The ledger is maintain by an ever more concentrated group of people who can afford the expensive hardware necessary to "mine". The is absolutely contrary to the design and security of bitcoin.

BTC-e proves you can "regulate" by perpenso · 2017-09-02 10:19 · Score: 1

you can't regulate internationnal crowd.

Yeah, that is what users of BTC-e thought.

"The BTC-e website is offline since 25 July 2017, following the arrest of BTC-e staff members and the seizure of server equipment at one of their data centres. In addition, suspected BTC-e operator Alexander Vinnik was arrested while vacationing with his family in Greece and is currently awaiting extradition to the US. These events led to the temporary suspension of the BTC-e service.
On the 28th of July 2017, US authorities seized the BTC-e.com domain name.
On the 14th of August 2017, BTC-e confirmed they would be returning under a different brand name and would be returning 55% of customer funds."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Merchants accepting bitcoin never see a bitcoin by perpenso · 2017-09-02 10:25 · Score: 2

Merchants who accept bitcoin often never see or touch a bitcoin and are largely unaffected by volatility. They can do their account and pricing in USD, EUR, etc as normal. If a rare individual shows up offering BTC they use a BTC payment processor. This processor converts the USD/EUR price to BTC in real time and provides a BTC price and payments address to pass on to the customer. If coins show up at the address the processor informs the merchant and credits the merchant's account for the USD/EUR originally specified. The processor takes on the risk for the minutes the transaction took to verify. The merchant is out nothing more than a processing fee, much like when they accept credit cards.

Re:Merchants accepting bitcoin never see a bitcoin by Rockoon · 2017-09-02 11:37 · Score: 1

MTGOX IS THAT YOU?

--
"His name was James Damore."
Re:Merchants accepting bitcoin never see a bitcoin by supremebob · 2017-09-02 23:18 · Score: 1

He could also be mentioning BTC-E, Bitinstant, or the dozens of other smaller currency changes that have either gone bust or defrauded users over the past few years.
That's the downside of using a basically unregulated currency. If you lose it, you really have no legal recourse to get it back.
So, yeah... I have no interest in investing my life savings in Bitcoin now or anytime soon, no matter how quickly the perceived value rises.

2013: $1,000 2014: $450 2015: $250 by perpenso · 2017-09-02 10:32 · Score: 2

They've been well over 1000 for years. I've been invested since 2013, where is TFA getting its info from?

No. BTC was $1,000 in 2013, $450 in 2014 and $250 in 2015. 2013 had an incredible vertical spike like the current spike to $5,000 (which has pulled back to $4,500 by the time this article made it to slashdot), and not surprisingly it popped. Wiser investors than you who don't trust vertical spikes and expect bubbles to pop purchased in 2014 and 2015 and made two to four times as much money as you. Well, assuming they cashed out. If you or they are still holding, you made nothing.

Intrinsic value and so on by cheesyweasel · 2017-09-02 10:50 · Score: 2

Firstly, let's clear things up.. I consider crypto currency a highly speculative and highly risky thing to invest in. However, I think a lot of people don't fairly it. I was a sceptic at first and still remain one, but I think it needs to be described more accurately. Statement: Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. Fact: No it's not. It is open and it's not fraudulent. A ponzi scheme by definition is fraud. Statement: Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. Retort: Bitcoin is a brand name. Brand names can have intrinsic value through brand recognition. High liquidity is also another intrinsic value, and so is anonymity (particularly with coins like Monero). It also has intrinsic value to the unbanked. People are willing to pay for things like that.. but how much is the risky speculation part. Statement: Bitcoin will never replace cash because it's too slow and can't scale to tens of thousands of transactions a second like the Visa network can. It also has high fees and takes a long time to confirm. Fact: Very true. This is where the speculating about technologies like Lightning Network (no fees, instant transaction) can have a big influence over the price of a coin, the possibility that the surge in the value of litecoin was tied its LN integration is one example. Statement: Bitcoin will never replace cash or card because there's no reason to change, particularly given its price instability. I don't think grandma will ever pay by bitcoin. Fact: That's why it has been seen in a similar light to trading precious metals. For it to have worldwide adoption, it will require a stable price, the banks or a major currency to collapse, most people to become IT literate and many people to be using it for day to day transactions. In other words.. that's probably a very, very long time away.

on instantaneous performance measures by epine · 2017-09-02 11:15 · Score: 1

A man leaping from the roof surely passes another man taking the stairs.

Much depends upon a rucksack of Houdini Handkerchiefs 2.0 sandwiched betwixt our hero's blades.

Re:Woohoo! by geoskd · 2017-09-02 11:27 · Score: 1

Bitcoin is not an investment, it is a gamble.

Does anybody know how to short bitcoin?

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I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted

Re:The blockchain will survive, perhaps not bitcoi by LynnwoodRooster · 2017-09-02 11:31 · Score: 2

And that's what is scary; bitcoin and other "block chain" currencies GUARANTEE traceability of every financial transaction you have ever made. Even worse than credit cards do (in that you can get credit cards with different names, addresses, and even anonymously). Bitcoin is an absolute dream for Governments and big business in that they can completely record and reconstruct everything you have ever bought or paid for. That kind of data isn't just a dream for the IRS, but for companies that thrive on your personal information.

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Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!

Re:Woohoo! by Rockoon · 2017-09-02 11:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

Does anybody know how to short bitcoin?

Buy dollars.

--
"His name was James Damore."

Re: Woohoo! by Rockoon · 2017-09-02 11:32 · Score: 1

The thing about bubbles is you dont know when they will pop .. you just know that they will.

--
"His name was James Damore."

Re: Strange statement by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 11:41 · Score: 1

I dont like it the same way i dont like tulip mania or beanie babies. It's a bunch of people betting on things with unsound fundamentals. It's a basket of fallacies wrapped up in marketing to get hype built and a handful of people get rich.

It's a big bullshit factory. Even it's claims from the start are bullshit (remember the early hype about how anonymous it was and how you can't be traced? Obviously bullshit in any practical view of it.)

Just one big bubble of bullshit.

Re:Woohoo! by war4peace · 2017-09-02 11:45 · Score: 1

Bitcoin data right now on Bittrex:

24h high: $4945
24h low: $4204.113

That's volatile as shit.

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...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)

South Sea Bubble by Martin+S. · 2017-09-02 12:35 · Score: 1

The original pyramid investment scheme takes it's name from this phenomena.

http://www.historic-uk.com/His...

http://www.investopedia.com/fe...

Re:Woohoo! by jimprdx · 2017-09-02 13:55 · Score: 1

Bitcoin is a massive gamble, I'm not falling for it!

Tulip bulbs, that's where the smart money is going...

Re:The blockchain will survive, perhaps not bitcoi by ceoyoyo · 2017-09-02 14:24 · Score: 1

Bitcoin was also supposed to eliminate the big transaction fees charged by banks. But in order to get a transaction processed you have to pay fees that even the banks might blush at.

The scariest thing though is that lots and lots of bitcoin is held by a few random anonymous nerds. If one of those guys gets greedy, desperate or bored and tries to cash out....

How to cash out? by Jeremi · 2017-09-02 15:10 · Score: 1

Let's say that I had bought (or mined) 200 bitcoin back when they were practically free(*), and now I want to transition from "Bitcoin millionaire" to "actual US dollars millionaire" by selling all my bitcoins at their current value.

How would I realistically go about doing that? Is it really just a matter of going to a Bitcoin exchange site and clicking "sell 200 bitcoins"?

(*) to be clear, this isn't actually the case; if it was, I would probably already be Bitcoin-savvy enough that I wouldn't need to ask

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I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.

Re:How to cash out? by smallfries · 2017-09-02 21:32 · Score: 1

First you sign up with an exchange. They need to verify your account againdt a real world identity to comply with money laundering laws. This involves exchanging id and takes a couple of days. Then you transmit the bitcoin to them. Then you convert it via them to a bank deposit in a real world account.

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Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php

Bad headline by slashmydots · 2017-09-02 17:36 · Score: 1

Never did it break $5000 on a major exchange and it's sitting at like $2650 right now. Hurray for accurate journalism. Take one tiny little spike and report it as the norm as if it's real.

Re:Bad headline by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 17:49 · Score: 1

Please post where you're seeing $2650, everywhere I look is over $4000

Not Very Useful As A Currency by that+this+is+not+und · 2017-09-02 18:14 · Score: 1

Bitcoin is not very useful as a currency if it is going to be a vehicle for speculators.

The whole function of a currency is to act as a stable means for exchange, i.e. something with a stable value.

bitcoin dud not "outperform" by aepervius · 2017-09-02 19:24 · Score: 1

To do what it would have to be linked some sort of performance process, or economic indicator. Hint : it does not. Bitcoin at this point is solely a commodity, a very speculative and volatile one, chinese money manipulation or not (see above post on Chinese money policy) it could drop toward 1000 dollar or much lower at a moment notice, indeoendenteky of world economy.

--
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org

Re:The blockchain will survive, perhaps not bitcoi by molecular · 2017-09-02 19:45 · Score: 1

> Bitcoin is just one of many users of the technology.

Well, I usually say that blockchain's killer app is money. And bitcoin is the first blockchain-based money. Network effect is really important in money, so if Bitcoin doesn't fuck up (which is a possibility, yes) or get fucked up (which is a possibilty, yes) it will be more than one of many "users of blockchain tech". It'll be the money of the internet or maybe even the "people's money".

Re:The blockchain will survive, perhaps not bitcoi by jonbryce · 2017-09-02 23:02 · Score: 2

The problem is that a 500% increase in value in 8 months makes it completely unsuitable as money.

Would you sign a 2 year phone contract that was denominated in bitcoin when you have no idea what the agreed amount would be worth in 2 years time?

Re:Woohoo! by Billly+Gates · 2017-09-03 00:53 · Score: 1

All investments are an "educated" gamble

Sigh. In the old days back when stocks REQUIRED dividends it wasn't. You bought stocks once and you got a share of the revenue. That is how it is SUPPOSED to work. When you retire you check out with the revenue generated from your share.

Now they do not pay dividends and the valuations are well over 30 years to break even if it did pay a dividend. Worse the investors compensate themselves like it is the firms money (in the old days) and not the clients money so they take a cream of the earnings. It is ridiculous.

But there are still some good small caps that pay dividends if you can find them and do not daytrade but leave them and let them generate revenue.

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http://saveie6.com/

Re:Woohoo! by Anon-Admin · 2017-09-03 08:46 · Score: 1

That's a 14.98% change over 24 hours. I have had stocks drop faster than that!

Personally, I don't think the price of BTC is sustainable because it has risen too fast, but I have been wrong before.

Re:Woohoo! by Anon-Admin · 2017-09-03 08:48 · Score: 1

Lol, Everyone said it was a ponzi scheme when I bought it back at $1 a bit coin.

Re: Woohoo! by Anon-Admin · 2017-09-03 08:50 · Score: 1

They were saying that back when it was $5 a bit coin. Everyone claimed it was over priced and would fall back to $0.50 a coin.

Soon - POOF! by ebvwfbw · 2017-09-03 12:07 · Score: 1

Just a matter of time before it's vapor.

Re:Woohoo! by Big+Hairy+Ian · 2017-09-03 23:53 · Score: 1

Just waiting for the bubble to burst

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Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

Insane Facts About Bitcoin by NewYork · 2017-09-04 01:35 · Score: 1

http://www.blacklistednews.com...

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Casteism

Re:Woohoo! by kiminator · 2017-09-05 04:49 · Score: 1

Sort of. But most investments are tied to something tangible. Bitcoin's value is purely based upon speculation. Its price can and will drop precipitously, and then perhaps rise again once there's another press cycle. Because of this volatility, Bitcoin is utterly worthless as a currency. That means that its value will only be sustained so long as the illusion persists. Which could be a long time. Or it could crash so drastically in a few weeks that people abandon it forever. Nobody knows, which is why it is and will always be a gamble.

Slashdot Mirror

Bitcoin Prices Surge Past $5,000 Three Weeks After Passing $4,000 (fortune.com)

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