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Catalonia Declares Independence; Spain Approves Central Takeover Of Region (npr.org)
Readers share a report: Lawmakers in Catalonia have declared independence from Spain in a historic vote that prompted protests and celebration. The government in Madrid, vowing to halt any would-be secession, has authorized the Spanish prime minister to take over direct rule of the previously semi-autonomous region. The vote in the Catalan Parliament comes nearly a month after the region held a referendum on independence, over Spain's objections. The regional president then declared his support for separation from Spain but also called for talks with Madrid, in an ambiguous speech. Spain's central government, promising to crack down harshly if the declaration was real, told the region's leaders to make up their mind: Yes or no? Independence or not? Now it's final: Independence, Catalonia said.
when Spain sends in the shocktroopers.
Lara Croft is ready to sacrifice herself to help the others. She won't accept leaving her friends dying. She isn't afraid of death, she will do whatever it takes to make sure that everyone is in safety. Lara Croft fights for her life and for her friends' lives. Learn to be like her, and consider the others.
I fully support the right of any region to decide who rules them (if decided by fair and free referendum).
That said, I think Catalonia is making a big mistake here. There is no way they will be better off without the protection of Spain and the European Union.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
n/t
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/
That said, I think Catalonia is making a big mistake here. There is no way they will be better off without the protection of Spain and the European Union.
Protection from what? From countries that would take most of Catalonia's economic output and use it for themselves?
Or maybe you meant "protection" against police beating and arresting citizens for trying to vote.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
While I generally support self determination for geographic regions the law in Spain does seem to make the declaration of independence illegal.
What I still don't understand is the heavy handed response to the referendum. Declare that it has no standing in law and ignore it; by interfering with it using unnecessary violence then refusing any dialogue the Spanish have given the Catalonians no options.
I can only see this one getting seriously violent from here. Either that or Spain is going to need a few thousand extra prisons to keep up with the sedition charges.
We kind of have some experience with this in Canada... the problem will be the separatists who want full autonomy (fine) will not care if they drag non-separatists with them (not fine), and likely won't even respect the concept of parts of their region separating from them to stay with Spain (also not fine).
Spain kind of has a responsibility to the citizens of the region who DON'T want to go (even if there's only one of them, because they don't have a lot of responsibility for those who are at least technically traitors due to acts of sedition).
And if you magically get all that sorted out, there's still the endless bickering over how to divide up Spain - borders, debt share, citizenship rights, trade agreements, government pensions... every single item on the list (including bajillions of items I've likely overlooked) has the potential to bring the two sides to civil war.
Is this "Spexit" or "Cexit"?
John
Why not?
> Spain kind of has a responsibility to the citizens of the region who DON'T want to go
Good point.
> they don't have a lot of responsibility for those who are at least technically traitors
It seems to me traitors support the enemy. Separately isn't treason, I don't think. If during World World II some people in California were trying to have California join the Axis, acting in unlawful ways to make that happen, they would be traitors. I don't know that voting to separate into two friendly nations is treason.
So these little breakaway regions would likely still depend on the EU, right? Between stuff like this and the UK/Scotland thing, are we witnessing the breakdown of the 'old' nations of the EU as they dissolve into something more like states are in the United States? The US federal government relative to the states is more powerful than the EU relative to its countries in my understanding, but if Spain breaks up then its constituent nations no longer form a voting bloc and are less powerful in swinging their weight in the EU, yes?
Many of the driving forces involved were the same ones that started the Civil War in 1936. Just without the fascists this time.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It is not enough to declare independence from Spain. Madrid it not the enemy. Rather, the Cats must declare independence from international zionist jewry. There is no other path to freedom.
Hail Victory.
Ever since the election Slashdot has gone political.
What does this news have to do with tech?
They knew proper process, and that they did not actually have support. This farce is a stupid game and the Catalan leaders must be changed criminally for all damages and deaths resulting from their idiocy.
Russian sumbags funding this. Throw them all down a hole.
How is it possible that Fox News has decided not to cover this story. For shame... really... this is huge!
A Spanish Civil war?
Didn't we do that one already?
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
This is an excellent example of why to avoid and diffuse geographic income concentration. When a high concentration of wealthy workers are gathered into one region, they'll soon want to secede so that they can live in a country free of poor people. The super-rich have options like Monaco, St. Bart's, and ships like The World and Utopia, but wealthy workers can't afford these so they go for secession.
You see similar secessionist urges coming from Silicon Valley for the same reason. No word on what they plan to do with their large homeless population though, perhaps they'd make it a law of their new country that anyone below a certain net worth would be exiled? No word on who will clean the toilets etc. either. Maybe they'll have very loose immigrant labor policies so that people can commute across the border?
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
How can so many people believe that they'll be better off by becoming independent, without the necessary resources for a self-sustainable nation, surrounded by nations that would rather not see them as an independent nation? The rhetoric before Brexit bordered on insanity, but people ate it up. Anyway, Britain at least has allies to fall back on. Catalonia is tiny in comparison and will be alone. You have to be a complete lunatic to think anyone in Catalonia will be better off for leaving. People aren't thinking this through. They're making gut decisions that will result in war. Idiots.
GESUNDHEIT
Now it's final: Independence, Catalonia said.
No, separatists said. Catalonia as whole said no such thing. Nor would it be legal or enforceable if it had. Which it didn't.
Catalonia gov should send a check equivalent to 1 million USD to every Catalonian just before the takeover.
What Declaration of Independence was EVER legal?
So to be clear, you believe the Union was wrong in the civil war?
So to be clear you think the US was wrong to declare independence from the UK? Each situation is different and if we look at historical situations where this has happened nobody will think that those declaring independence were always wrong or always right: the context matters.
Canada?
But what is a thumper?
20% victims is way too low.
The ONLY one who decides what country he belongs to, in that person HERSELF.
Nobody else gets to decide. If I don't like it, I get to fuck off too! ^^
I don't care if they are fascists or nationalists or libertarian capitalists who want to make murder legal or hippies who want to found a tree-hugging state or whatever. As long as they stay in their shithole, they are the only ones who decide!
And I can not do business with them, if I decide.
So they can rot by themselves.
And if it turns out, that their loony society actually is more successful than mine, then I salute them.
Although this doesn't look very loony. It's an age-old thing. Let's just see, alright? No harm done.
Apart from the fact that they were a nation of their own once, have a separate cultural identity and language that was suppressed via fascist dictatorship, your correct, it's just a group of rich people gathering together to screw the poor.
"geographic income concentration"
to be fair the spanish are taking it and spending it as quickly as they can.
This is main point about the independence of Catalonia, mixed with a lot of selfishness, believe of being better than others, and outdated nationalism.
South had no legal rights, same in Spain. Human rights... they have those... South: despite the incredible irony... but with the slaves getting those rights too (to avoid contradiction, using the same rights argument) would they have had enough votes to leave? Probably.
It is all about JOBS. People will kill for jobs.... their "way of life" is often heavily linked to the jobs. Losing psychologically has more impact than gaining, so LOSING jobs and the lifestyle and security that affords is MOST IMPORTANT. It comes BEFORE their religion (especially when Jesus is such an extreme socialist and anti-capitalist it boggles the mind how much mass cognitive dissonance goes on in this area. think about it.)
It really was about slaves... because their whole economy was based upon the need for slave labor; it supported their jobs and their way of life. The NEED to believe that slavery was proper had to be part of the culture and unquestioned since their economics revolved around it. It's a vicious cycle. Sure academics can say it wasn't about slavery; but it literally was about slavery - all the rest is just background analysis... like explaining what makes a serial killer. YOU will kill to defend your life and your family's life... it doesn't take much to extend that primal drive and that is the true nature of evil; the stuff that makes the good do bad (for good, often righteous reasons.)
Letting them split to avoid a war... which THEY STARTED being the inbred fools they were was the best option. I don't know if Lincoln might have allowed that but they forced a fight. The real way to fight is economically. Economics drove their motives and beliefs. One could have invested less money into technology and made the cotton gin come out faster... hell, give them away free to the south. One could have planned an attack and won the war in months by doing what Lincoln did win the war with: banking. Lincoln won by burning up all the South's money. literally! The north used GOLD. The south used cotton instead!!! Lincoln burned it.
Spain: they are officially separatists now. If they attack Spain then they are traitors, just like our southern traitors. Hard to avoid being traitors in that situation especially when it is easy to throw that label around. Sedition laws are almost entirely against human rights; we have them in the USA.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Time to find a site with stuff that actually matters.....
First we see the rise of Fascists everywhere, now we are going to have another Spanish Civil War?
Mark Twain: "History doesn't repeat itself, but it frequently rhymes."
The most famous case of this was George Washington's household slave Ona Marie Judge.
Pennsylvania law allowed a slave to gain their freedom after six months of continuous residence. Learning of this nearly too late, Washington began moving his slaves in and out of the state to reset the clock.
Ona Judge eventually ran from the Washingtons when Martha decided to transfer her as a gift to her daughter. She spent her life in New Hampshire, where she died in poverty. The sister that Martha gifted in her place ironically did far better.
Like they'd be so stupid to join a failing fascist corporate oligarchy whose purpose is precisely to leech on states like them or Greece or anything on the outskirts.
The EU is wrong because it is the same thing as TTIP/CETA/TPP. Corporations overriding the sovereignty of people and their governments over themselves.
Which of course caters to the fucking nationalists, which are no better. But I sometimes wonder, how many of those are just EU/US corporate sock puppets. I mean we know for a fact (e.g. Snowden leaks, or the whole NSU debacle in Germany), that that they do this all the time, and in many cases, were the actual original initiators of violence!
Catalonia does not have a right to independence, because they are Christians.
Not Greece's fault. But when the loans were default the banks told the EU to buy the loan, taking taxpayer money to fill THEIR failure. The EU then had power over Greece to demand and just plain take money from Greece (and made demands that basically screwed Greece over in their attempt to recover), which the banks had no power to do.
So whose fault is it?
The banks should have refused to loan it, or demanded more security.
The EU should not have decided to take on a bad loan.
Greece should not have even ASKED for a loan????? Nope, that's not how going to ask for a loan works. If you know you can afford to pay the loan, you don't need the loan, or at the very least there's no right to demand interest on that loan, since it is of zero risk.
Outdated nationalism or an understanding on the natural size of a nation. As the supra-national boarder increases (EU) the political forces that drove unification of 'old' nations to achieve collective defense diminish. The natural forces of geography, culture, language and race become prime motivator.
Would be for the U.S. to extend diplomatic recognition to Catalonia. That might stop Spain in its tracks.
Remember when this was a tech site?
Its getting old coming here and being bombarded by political biases or non tech stories. Personally I come here for tech news and to get away from regular news. I can read about this stuff from the regular news sites...
The 'state' government can't declare bankruptcy though. Unlike all the real states, the Feds changed the rules so as to protect a few banking/rich friends. Screw those Puerto Ricans, no taxation without representation and whatnot.
This is an excellent example of why to avoid and diffuse geographic income concentration. When a high concentration of wealthy workers are gathered into one region, they'll soon want to secede so that they can live in a country free of poor people. The super-rich have options like Monaco, St. Bart's, and ships like The World and Utopia, but wealthy workers can't afford these so they go for secession.
How, precisely, do you propose to diffuse income over everywhere? Rivers and coasts have been the rich places throughout human history. Getting a UBI to keep the poor afloat is hard enough, without some cockamamie scheme to demand that the Smythe-Worthingtons live in whatever empty place on top of that.
You see similar secessionist urges coming from Silicon Valley for the same reason. No word on what they plan to do with their large homeless population though, perhaps they'd make it a law of their new country that anyone below a certain net worth would be exiled? No word on who will clean the toilets etc. either. Maybe they'll have very loose immigrant labor policies so that people can commute across the border?
You yourself note the presence of a significant poor population in California itself. Maybe the secessionists are more worked up about rural theocrats using their greater voting power to impose draconian bullshit? Marijuana would have been legal decades ago if it wasn't for the effort to make being a hippie a criminal offense.
How, precisely, do you propose to diffuse income over everywhere? Rivers and coasts have been the rich places throughout human history. Getting a UBI to keep the poor afloat is hard enough, without some cockamamie scheme to demand that the Smythe-Worthingtons live in whatever empty place on top of that.
Perhaps offer tax incentives to companies based on their geographical spread. Being packed into one campus like Google would be the most heavily taxed scenario, and being spread thinly everywhere would be ideal and offer the greatest tax advantage. I'm not asking wealthy people to move to the boonies, I'm asking companies to offer employment in the boonies so that there might be more wealthy people there and less where all the other wealthy people are. Otherwise you get the runaway positive feedback loop that's turned San Francisco into what it is today.
You yourself note the presence of a significant poor population in California itself. Maybe the secessionists are more worked up about rural theocrats using their greater voting power to impose draconian bullshit? Marijuana would have been legal decades ago if it wasn't for the effort to make being a hippie a criminal offense.
I could buy that if the calls for secession were coming from the hippies instead of the hipsters. I haven't seen nearly as much talk about marijuana legalization surrounding the Calexit debate as talk of immigration & labor policy and tech regulation. The spokesmen for it aren't exactly a bunch of free-spirited longhairs either.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Australia.
Many Catalan family are still waiting to know where are their children. They are so selfish!
So easy to forget, they were oppressed for decades, tortured, forced to send their children abroad when they were not abducted, forbidden to speak their language, forbidden to use a catalan name, etc. etc. And nearly nothing was/is done to jail the people responsible of this freaking nightmare. They are still rooming freely in spain. They even have an organization dedicated to the dictator. This organization is full of old franquist. They even try to put an
Spain is the same country which protected nazis until his death in 1994.
Yeah, fucking selfish catalan and outdated nationalism.
In this affair, Catalans seems very reasonable people. Spain definitively have to sort out his past : francoist, nazism, abductions, ...This have to be solve! It is not normal that the responsible of all this were never sanctioned.
Catalan people don't believe that they are better than others. They are waiting for 30-40 years for sound response to crimes to the humanity. Seems like some people are pardoning themselves so easily that is selfish.
Catalonia did not call for independence, only it's regional president with less than 40% of popular support. Most of catalonians don't want independence.
No take over has been made, the constitution states that no part can unilaterally declare independence, it's just the law, nothing more, nothing less.
The president of Spain has called for an election in Catalonia from minute 0, so no take over again, just an under the law way for people to express themselves, not greedy politicians trying to take a region without support.
If secession does succeed, prepare for all the citizens who didn't vote for it or want it to start being persecuted.
Also, Europe seems to never learn its own history. Countries have broken down into regions, then unified again under threat from others when they realized a small region stands no chance, especially if rich in resources. Then broken into regions again when the groups start finding reasons to hate each other. Then unified again...
Obvious FlyOverLander is obvious.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Virtually the entire planet is becoming "flyover country" at this rate. BTW, you know that term was made up by an American right-wing think tank as a strawman putdown with which to villainize leftists, right?
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
The hereditary slavery was only instituted after complaints over the treatment of indentured servants (whether European, Native Americans via debts due to a misunderstood or misrepresented explanation of European ways, or Africans, some early examples of whom were voluntarily brought over.)
I don't remember the exact timeframe, but between the 1500s and 1700s due to abuse of the indentured servitude contracts and billing people so that they essentially stayed forever indebted, it was decided to eliminate indentured servitude of Europeans and I believe non-White/non-Christians of other races.
As this now affected the South, who had previously been relying on indentured servants for many of its fields they managed to legislate a compromise, a few years before slavery became abhorrent in the rest of Europe, and replaced indentured servants with 'lesser raced' slaves, leading eventually to the Civil War when the South refused to give it up.
People often forget that indenturement was a common occurance in past times, just like most people forget that America had debtors until the 19th century, brought down only after its effects were seen upon the veterans of the revolutionary war as a result of depressed economy Post-Revolutionary War, and the Merchants desire to call in their debts so they would have the finances necessary to re-open trade with much of Europe, which was wary of the Colonies ability to afford their shipments not without both risk and potential for unprofitable trade once there.
America is a pretty shitty place historically, but without a complete understanding of it from the time of Columbus to today, you may make a hot button topic black or white without understanding the economic and political grey areas in it that might have been resolvable some other way, or would have been far better dealt with by executing a bunch of bourgeois or the period specific approximation.
Finally: The real reason that slavery's demise happened, and why the racism that followed was able to last so long, was America's theft of the Cotton Gin from Britain, an example of exactly the sort of Intellectual Property infringement America now rails against amongst its rivals, while having brilliantly taken advantage of itself, when it was convenient and/or necessary.
only *ALLOW* slavery of non-white/non-christians, since they were godless heathens who were akin to farm animals.
This was accepted and practiced by some, but not all colonies, which eventually lead to the political conflict which eventually escalated into the Civil War some 1-2 centuries later.
Very interesting read for those of you who want to know the political, economic, and social ramifications of this decision and its effects on shaping America (including, the Alamo!)
You CAN actually secede from the United States by renouncing your citizenship. HOWEVER, they make it basically impossible to do this without being a resident of another nation by requiring you to renounce at an embassy with a period of 3 months between your initial and final renouncement appointments. In theory you could do this and become Stateless. However in practice the only place you could go is the Sea, and according to UNICLOS Stateless/Flagless vessels are subject to *ALL* countries laws simultaneously, rather than being subject to no country's laws.
So in practice even though you can become 'personally sovereign', as soon as you do they will find a 'legally justified' way to squash you like a bug, just as Spain is doing today, or the United States may do tomorrow if a state or territory decided it wanted complete autonomy again.
And don't forget about the Guano Act! Go and try and figure out why that should be legal, or the 'nature preserves' that have been getting successively cut out of international waters in the past few decades, only to be used for resource extraction by for-profit companies or covert military presences. A good British example of this is Pitcairn and the surrounding islands, although there are hundreds more US examples.