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We May Not Have Enough Minerals To Even Meet Electric Car Demand (jalopnik.com)
Citing two reports from Reuters and Bloomberg, Jalopnik reports on the scarcity of metals necessary for electric cars. From the report: [W]hile demand for nickel keeps increasing, half the world's nickel supply is too low in quality to use for car batteries. All of which is going to have seismic effect on the world's suppliers. In short: There will be winners and losers, and the winners will be the ones with the highest-grade stuff -- not unlike, I suppose, the illicit drugs market. "Some of the biggest producers of the higher-grade ores, including BHP Norilsk Nickel, Vale and Sumitomo Corp, are moving quickly to take advantage and seal long-term supply deals with battery producers," reports Reuters. "Among those losing out would be lower-grade nickel mines like Cerro Matoso in Columbia, owned by South32 Ltd and Glencore's Koniambo in New Caledonia, as well as Anglo American's mines in Brazil producing ferronickel."
What of cobalt? Bloomberg sent a writer and photographer to Cobalt, Ontario, about 300 miles north of Toronto, to find out. The town, which began life as a silver town, also is believed to have some cobalt, though no one's really found much yet. The search for a new source of cobalt isn't taking place in just Cobalt, Ontario, of course, as mining companies worldwide try to capitalize on the our electric car future. But the search is ramping up as the world's biggest source of cobalt -- the Democratic Republic of Congo, where about half of all cobalt comes from -- is increasingly unstable, making car manufacturers nervous and cobalt all the more valuable.
What of cobalt? Bloomberg sent a writer and photographer to Cobalt, Ontario, about 300 miles north of Toronto, to find out. The town, which began life as a silver town, also is believed to have some cobalt, though no one's really found much yet. The search for a new source of cobalt isn't taking place in just Cobalt, Ontario, of course, as mining companies worldwide try to capitalize on the our electric car future. But the search is ramping up as the world's biggest source of cobalt -- the Democratic Republic of Congo, where about half of all cobalt comes from -- is increasingly unstable, making car manufacturers nervous and cobalt all the more valuable.
These aren't minerals, but elements.
The ore which they elements may be extracted from are minerals - several different kinds, none of which are mentioned in TFS.
The elements themselves are not rare. It''s just a matter of paying for the extraction. It won't make batteries hard to find, just expensive.
We simply developed improved technology to recover and refine the oil that was left between the mantle and the surface, and future generations of humans may discover recoverable quantities of petroleum products in the mantle.
All we know for sure, is that the earth's most intelligent species is ever more clever in a crisis.
Short supplies of nickel and rare earth metals? Increased profit margins for successful innovation? We'll be roping asteroids at some future price point.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
I guess they expect that the groups mining the high-quality nickel will serve the battery industry *and* all other nickel-using industries? Because that seems dumb, like even a middle-schooler could probably figure out that the high-end nickel will go to expensive high-end uses, and the prices of low-end nickel will rise because the high-end nickel is no longer available for low-end uses.
But that's just me, I'm some weirdo who doesn't even feel the need to tie nickel prices to illicit drugs for a headline.
I have a hard time believing we are out of accessible nickel in the crust - maybe it's not economically competitive at this time, like tar sands weren't 40 years ago, but I think it's still there.
However, as the cost of extracting high quality nickel from the crust increases, at some point it will be cost effective to source it from space rocks. Like solar power in the 1970s, we're not there... yet.
US nickels have an (illegal) melt value of $0.041...so store some. if nickel goes up, great. if not, still worth $0.05.
half the world’s nickel supply is too low in quality to use for car batteries.
1. There is plenty of nickel in the planet's crust.
2. Since nickel is an element, it can be refined into pure nickel with the application of chemistry.
3. All the elements in batteries can be extracted and reused, it's just a matter of chemistry.
Consider aluminum for a moment: despite being extremely abundant, it's rarely found in it's elemental state (which is why it used to be valued more than gold). Then we figured out how to extract it and now it's dirt cheap.
This is just click-bait alarmist bullshit.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
If you think it's bad for batteries, how about the platinum they need for the PEM membranes in fuel cells? While the required amount has been reduced it has not been eliminated and as far as I can tell no suitable substitute has been found that reacts with both hydrogen and oxygen to catalyze the reaction. Also, over time the PEM membranes break down and lose platinum into the water. Hydrogen fuel cells are dead, except in Japan where the government is pushing it heavily. The materials used in batteries are not consumed and are readily recycled.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
Robert Murray-Smith has an interesting Youtube channel where he's doing all sorts of amazing things with graphene and other forms of carbon, including building an all carbon battery.
We might not need any metal (not even for the plates) in a few years time.
Now if only battery manufacturers would think of this now and start building rockets and planning longer ranged space missions...
I'm surprised that the Sudbury region of Ontario isn't mentioned - the town was built on nickel (there's even a giant Canadian nickel coin monument).
Does this mean that the Ontario nickel isn't high enough quality? Couldn't it be refined to meet the needs of the battery manufacturers?
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
Better build more probes.
Ah, got it. So 1/2 to 1/3rd the wall-to-wheels efficiency of an EV isn't bad enough for you; you want 1/5th the wall-to-wheels efficiency with a hydrogen ICE.
The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds given adequate vacuuming systems.
Except that they don't take an evening to charge. The Model 3, for example, charges at about 420 mph in the bottom half of its SoC on Tesla superchargers. And according to EPA docs it's capable of taking up to 525A, which is more like 700-800mph peak.
Yes, they take an evening to charge at home, but what does that matter? You take ten seconds to plug in, and then you don't think any more about it; your car is full the next morning.
As for weight: the Model 3 SR is slightly lighter than average for its class. The LR is heavier than average but far from the heaviest. Either way, there's nothing excessively heavy about them.
The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds given adequate vacuuming systems.
Nickel is not required for many Li-Ion formulations. It makes batteries that have the highest power density however it's not the most durable formulation.
Lithium Iron Phosphate ("LFP", LiFePO4) is the formulation used in the Segway. Note the complete absence of Nickel.
Lithium Manganese Oxide ("LMO", LiMn2O4) is another used for electric vehicles that has no Nickel.
I have seen sponsored posts on FB for companies trying to sell investments in Nickel with this same threat that it's needed for electric vehicle market. It's not. Scam.
A little offtopic, but: Columbia? WTF? The name of my fucking country is Colombia! with an O
Slashdot ya no es que lo era!
They don't know how to read these articles and understand the words that aren't directly-related to the vehicle itself. They are essentially board-level grease monkeys, not component-level grease monkeys. And this type of reporting demonstrates it very clearly.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
http://i.imgur.com/axJmn.gif
Hydrogen fuel cell cars are a boondoggle. You just need to read about it to know why it makes no fucking sense at all. Last I heard they weren't selling the Honda Clarity FCV to anyone, it's fricking expensive, they only rent it for experimental purposes to collect the user data.
The technology the Honda Clarity FCT uses IIRC is basically compressed hydrogen gas storage in a composite wrapped tank, and a PEM fuel cell (which is made with platinum). The platinum content alone makes the car outrageously expensive to manufacture.
You might say: "But cheesy, there are other fuel cell technologies." Sure. there are SOFC fuel cells, great for stationary applications, on a car they run too hot and are too brittle. Or Molten Carbonate fuel cells. Also terrific for stationary applications, but require minutes to heat up before they even generate power. It's a boondoggle. I won't even mention the hydrogen gas storage and transportation issues because, well, I don't feel like it. You can read about it in the web.
Yes, versus a couple seconds. Why you want to have to spend 5+ minutes detouring to a gas station, in whatever weather, paying high prices and breathing in carcinogenic evaporating gas drip fumes, rather than spending a couple seconds plugging in in the comfort of your own home, is beyond me.
You clearly seem to only want to talk about long trips rather than your everyday life. Which is silly. But let's do that.
* Trips shorter than the vehicle's range take.... a couple seconds to charge. Just a plug-in at the other end.
* Trips a bit shorter than double the vehicle's range only take a single stop en route. We're now getting to the point of a half day's driving.
* Only in "whole day driving" trips does the charge speed have a relevant effect on trip time.
Except that, not really - unless you're driving like you're not supposed to. There's a reason why, for example, that European commercial drivers are legally required to have at least 45 minutes of breaks for every 4 1/2 hours of driving (split up as they choose) and can lose their license if they don't: it's not safe to drive all day with no or minimal stops. You're supposed to stop to get out and stretch / walk around a bit, to eat, to use the restroom, etc. At 420mph, a half hour meal break is 210 miles (three hours driving). At 700-800mph? Much less.
But top reiterate: long trips are the exception for the vast majority of people, not the rule. In their everyday lives, EVs take vastly less of your time.
Welcome to late 2017, where global fast charging networks are a thing.
It's not. Power plants burn natural gas over twice as efficiently as a NG car (transmission / distribution / battery / motor losses are each minimal), emit much less per unit power, and buy the gas for a lot cheaper than you do at home. Natural gas also is a minority of your power generation (a large minority, but still a minority).
It depends entirely on what type of charging station you're talking about. Even if you drive through a typical suburban neighborhood during the day and you'll see lots of cars out, and that's ignoring those in garages. But beyond that, there's also workplace charging, charging at stores / malls, charging at fast chargers (with battery buffers), and so on, all of which are generally done during the day.
Are you under the mistaken impression that most people with solar installs are off-grid?
Grid demand is highest during the day, lower at night. If you're providing excess power during the day and consuming more than usual at night, you're helping the grid.
The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds given adequate vacuuming systems.
"EV's" have a larger environmental footprint, than gas powered vehicles.
You are going to need to provide an accurate citation for that.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
> I'd think that anything that predates WWII is far enough in the past that it has little relevance on today's political climate.
"Ancient history" is relevant to both our region and theirs. The state of politics in both reflect political traditions with very deep roots. That entire region suffers from the fact that it's the remnant of the Ottoman Empire. It suffers from wars, ethnic strife, and a tendency towards tyranny due to the democratic traditions it DID NOT develop since the time of Mohammed.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
At highway/motorway speeds, every 150 miles you should take AT LEAST a 20 minute break. That means 450mph recharge is more than enough.
I agree. There's a problem with that though. If I'm on a trip with an EV then I'm stuck watching the car charge for 20 minutes. Unless the place I stop also has a place to eat, and food I'd actually want to eat, then I'm watching the car and then going further down the road to eat.
If I have a gasoline car then I'm filling up in a few minutes and gone to find somewhere to eat. If I have a hybrid then I'm filled up in no time and I still have something that will charge up overnight for my daily commute. If I have a natural gas car then I can fill up at home overnight, and I can still fill up in minutes while on long trips.
If I'm traveling with someone then I can stop every 100 to 200 miles to switch drivers, top off the tank, take a piss, and grab some food to eat on the way. That's just a few minutes, not 20, and no one is driving tired. Can't do that with an electric.
People tend to buy what they need for all occasions. They need something that can be a daily commuter and also be able to take the kids to go visit Grandma once a month or so. When there is a married couple with small children they are not going to want to stop for 20 minutes to recharge the car. They are going to stop, top off the tank, and switch drivers if one is tired. Can't do that with an electric. Maybe they'll have a hybrid so at least the commutes are electric only. Maybe they have two vehicles where during the week he drives the sedan and she drives the minivan, on long trips everyone piles in the one that burns hydrocarbons.
Electric cars have a LONG way to go before they can replace hydrocarbon burning vehicles.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
I agree. There's a problem with that though. If I'm on a trip with an EV then I'm stuck watching the car charge for 20 minutes. Unless the place I stop also has a place to eat, and food I'd actually want to eat, then I'm watching the car and then going further down the road to eat.
Not to mention, very few people want to eat a meal every 2 hours (150 miles / 75 mph).
Watching a sitcom on a streaming service during charging breaks would become a thing (Netflix & Charge?).
A better solution which only works if people could be trusted around high voltages - overhead lines over one roadway lane, and a pantograph to reach it, so you can drive and charge (sortof like trackless trolleys). Just remember to drop the pan before exiting the lane.