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No, the Linux Desktop Hasn't Jumped in Popularity (zdnet.com)
An anonymous reader quotes ZDNet:
Stories have been circulating that the Linux desktop had jumped in popularity and was used more than macOS. Alas, it's not so... These reports have been based on NetMarketShare's desktop operating system analysis, which showed Linux leaping from 2.5 percent in July, to almost 5 percent in September. But unfortunately for Linux fans, it's not true... It seems to be merely a mistake. Vince Vizzaccaro, NetMarketShare's executive marketing share of marketing told me, "The Linux share being reported is not correct. We are aware of the issue and are currently looking into it"...
For the most accurate, albeit US-centric operating system and browser numbers, I prefer to use data from the federal government's Digital Analytics Program (DAP). Unlike the others, DAP's numbers come from billions of visits over the past 90 days to over 400 US executive branch government domains... DAP gets its raw data from a Google Analytics account. DAP has open-sourced the code, which displays the data on the web and its data-collection code... In the US Analytics site, which summarizes DAP's data, you will find desktop Linux, as usual, hanging out in "other" at 1.5 percent. Windows, as always, is on top with 45.9 percent, followed by Apple iOS, at 25.5 percent, Android at 18.6 percent, and macOS at 8.5 percent.
The article does, however, acknowledge that Linux's real market share is probably a little higher simply because "no one, not even DAP, seems to do a good job of pulling out the Linux-based Chrome OS data."
For the most accurate, albeit US-centric operating system and browser numbers, I prefer to use data from the federal government's Digital Analytics Program (DAP). Unlike the others, DAP's numbers come from billions of visits over the past 90 days to over 400 US executive branch government domains... DAP gets its raw data from a Google Analytics account. DAP has open-sourced the code, which displays the data on the web and its data-collection code... In the US Analytics site, which summarizes DAP's data, you will find desktop Linux, as usual, hanging out in "other" at 1.5 percent. Windows, as always, is on top with 45.9 percent, followed by Apple iOS, at 25.5 percent, Android at 18.6 percent, and macOS at 8.5 percent.
The article does, however, acknowledge that Linux's real market share is probably a little higher simply because "no one, not even DAP, seems to do a good job of pulling out the Linux-based Chrome OS data."
For the most accurate, albeit US-centric operating system and browser numbers, I prefer to use data from the federal government's Digital Analytics Program (DAP). Unlike the others, DAP's numbers come from billions of visits over the past 90 days to over 400 US executive branch government domains
I'm skeptical that hits to .gov websites capture a representative subset of web users. I'd think that many people rarely visit .gov sites.
That would in fact be market share then of ChromeOS, and not Linux desktop. I would expect to see ChromeOS increase. I never expect to see any variant of Linux desktop increase from now on. Why should it? It would not be very popular amongst desktop or laptop consumers.
Since ChromeOS isn't broken out, yet we hear about how many schools and educational institutions are using them, either they aren't accurately counted or in fact it was all hype. And that Microsoft and Apple have better educational sales teams than does Google.
2018 will be the year of the Linux desktop, you heard it here first!
Unlike the others, DAP's numbers come from billions of visits over the past 90 days to over 400 US executive branch government domains
This strikes me as being a very poor source to use if you're interested in overall desktop statistics. People visit government domains much more often from work than from home, and government workers visit government sites more often than non-government workers do. Alternative OSes are less common in government jobs than non-government positions, and there's probably a skew one way or the other in generic home vs. work statistics.
I'm not disputing that the recent stats cited are wrong, just objecting to advocating what seems to be an inherently statistically biased source as the "most accurate" for this statistic.
rage, rage against the dying of the light
I'm not saying a massive jump, but certainly not immeasurable by any means. It grows every day.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
It's been a VERY long time since I last checked, but I once found that multiple of the most popular browsers were incorrectly reporting themselves as running on Windows even when they were actually running on Linux. This was apparently being done on purpose for some compatibility/bug workaround or something, but was obviously significantly screwing with the numbers towards favouring Microsoft.
Does anyone know if this is still the case at all?
> Chrome OS is as much Linux as Android. As in, not at all.
They are definitely Linux distros. They're just not GNU/Linux.
Often government sites are dated and have components which force you to go to them on Microsoft Windows. It's no surprise that Microsoft Windows still dominates these statistics. It's really hard to get good statistics on GNU/Linux. However I can say the demand has been growing over the past 10 years. More and more users are purchasing GNU/Linux systems, wifi adapters, and other gear from my company. The reason for this growth is an ever increasing number of less technical users adopting it as a result of access to hardware that is actually properly supported. If you look at shitty companies like System76, Purism, and Dell's Linux systems you'll notice all sorts of issues with proprietary components these companies depend on. However not all the major players are utilizing such components and the elimination of such components has resulted in GNU/Linux being adoptable by less and less technical users. I can tell you the vast majority of our growth has been as a result of these companies and others failing to ship products that can be properly supported.
I've got probably 8 machines, all running Linux. This box is the only one that ever surfs. The others are used for real work. Kind of sad that correct method to determine desktop share is surfing.
Damn those BSD hippies for stealing the vote from the most-qualified desktop in history!!
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I like trolls as much as any other guy, but your crap is TL;DR
Linux is one of the least secure operating systems ... Microsoft is usually quickest to issue patches now.
Hey, our favorite AC is back, posting "facts" that are just as believable as ever before!
Keep up the good work, braddah. We miss you when you're not around.
The Linux desktop is only for smart people, and there are a limited number of those. Therefore, the Linux desktop will never be popular.
If you go by user agent string i am connecting to web sites from a win10 machine.
I haven't run windows on the desktop for a couple decades.
Linux users may be less inclined towards cooperating with analytics.
In the US, Apple products are much more popular than elsewhere in the world, for various reasons (e.g. more expensive, same-nation market). Also, within the non-Apple OS user base, I believe, though can't say with certainty, that Linux has better adoption due to government interest and perhaps even MS OS license costs for organizational use. The 1.5% figure should be subject to this bias.
After trying to use linux for a nice 10-foot viewing environment for years, and dealing with codec issues, and screen tearing, hardware compatibility, third party launcher glitches, and most recently inability to view Netflix and no HEVC acceleration I bought a couple android boxes for $200 and they do exactly what I want. So, yeah, I can understand how linux has fizzled. I still use linux for some tasks/development but not nearly as much as I used to.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
The statistics are not bad. They are correct. Chrome OS is based on GNU/Linux. It is a Fedora derivative.
Yeah, that was me. I connected with the US Executive Branch several times with my Mac. Sorry!
...omphaloskepsis often...
Is systemd.
Best OS evar!
Linux users running multiple instances of Chrome in parallel to download ISOs and stolen contents inflate the numbers. The real number of Linux users is probably divided by 10!
So I got myself a nice expensive BlueTooth headphone. Awesome. Then I wanted to use it on my Linux computer. Well lucky me, the headphones came with a nice expensive cable...
0x or or snor perron?!
'This is the Year of the Linux Desktop' (aka every year since 1998) finally went down the tubes when Ubuntu went insane.
We went from being able to say 'Oh yeah, just install Ubuntu' if anyone expressed curiosity (even if we were personally using Debian or CentOS or whatever) to going uhhhh.... finally we could point to Mint, but by then it was too late.
Of course. We use Palemoon.
Huh? How is this more accurate than anything else?
Can anybody validate the assumption that the distribution accessing US government computers is the same as the distribution across actual computers?
As a few people noted, they use Linux systems for working but other systems for accessing the government. Personally, I do development on Linux and Windows 7 machines, surfing on an oldish Windows 7 machine and accessing banking and government websites on a Mac. That would mean I'm seen as a Mac user, when it's only a tiny fraction of what what I'm doing and a small fraction of the number of machines accessing the Interwebs.
I guess I'm probably so far in the minority that I'm in the noise and don't significantly change the stats.
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
linux promisses no virus's per ibm.
We're trying to create a self-fulfilling prophecy here!
You know... Like the media repeating "America does X” or “America thinks X” until it is true.
We thought we'd use it for something good, for a change.
Your medication. Stop forgetting it.
So... what is ChromeOS counted as? Is it in the 1.5% "other" or somewhere else?
I have installed it for people with zero clue, and they are happy with it. (E.g. finally their old scanner works again. And supporting them is easy as pie.)
And I use it on my ARM single-board home all-in-one server, with custom hardware and drivers attached, kernel patches, and no GUI of any kind. Even a Ubuntu user who knows how to do things on the console would be helplessly lost.
That's what Linux is about: YOUR choice.
E.g. how the start menu and the window manager and the task bar and the widget kit and the task switcher are all separate programs, and you can decide which one it should be. (But don't have to either.)
This was new and amazing to me, when I started with Linux. I ran KDE with Compiz for years, because Compiz had more power user functions. (KWin still can’t do edge triggers that require a click before they activate. Let alone using a different action for each mouse button.)
That is why criticising Linux (or rather GNU) is so often missing the point or futile: If you don't like it, why did you configure it that way or keep it? You can even use a BSD kernel, you can replace your init system and file system. And obviously everything related to the desktop or applications. You can even make it nearly indistinguishable from Windows or macOS, if you really want to.
But maybe that's the problem: Most people seem to not want to make their own decisions. They don't want to tell the computer how they want it (aka configuration). They want the computer just magically know what they want, without ever telling it. And since that is impossible, they just get the usual. "Hey Tux, take another lowest common denominator off the rack for our client!"
I'm not judging. I can see the appeal. It's comfortable. It's easy. It saves effort.
You just stop existing... as an individual... and become a limb/drone/tool of somebody else.
But I don't hate swarming species, like bees or ants, either. So who am I to judge...?
Remember, Jerry: it is not a lie, if you believe it.
I love linux, but when my friends try it out they have no idea what to do when a driver doesn't work properly, so they go back to using Windows. While it works most of the time, the times it doesn't makes it difficult for the non-technical person. Maybe that will change in the future, maybe it never will.
Linux Mint and Ubuntu are very easy to use now. They have a learning curve, but no more than a Windows user switching to a Mac. Those two distros are where the bulk of new Linux desktop users are coming from. Anyone interested in expanding Linux desktop market share should put their focus on helping those two distros, and especially Mint since Ubuntu is already backed by a successful corporation.
> Chrome OS is as much Linux as Android. As in, not at all.
They are definitely Linux distros. They're just not GNU/Linux.
Chrome and Android are Linux hosted, much like an appliance running a Linux kernel where a user can neither see it nor access it. They are not Linux desktops, nor are they Linux distros. "Linux distro" and "GNU/Linux" are synonymous.
Linux is a kernel. Many vulnerabilities of an entire operating system is in the user land, which might be GNU or Android.
Yes, .gov domains are highly skewed, apparently towards the wealthy as evidenced by their showing iOS as far more popular than Android while other sources show Android with about 2/3 of the mobile website browsing marketshare.
Was that 2/3 of browsing or 2/3 of sales? I recall mention of Android representing 2/3 of sales but Android users upgrade more often and that actual usage may be closer to 50/50, in the US. Internationally, yeah, Android somewhere around 80%.
And yes there is absolutely a demographic effect. Despite Android being far more numerous an iOS app will generate more revenue than its Android version. iOS users are more willing/able to spend money. In a university lecture I attended the professor also mentioned some study of Android vs iOS based on cell towers. iOS had far greater representation is "wealthier" zones.
Better question, is there anyone in the Trump regime that IS NOT going to prison within the next 3 years?
Yes, Donald Trump himself. Just resign yourself to three more years of tweets from the Twit in Chief. :-)
The question is what is Linux for the desktop means.
Is it just a consumer device based on the Linux kernel. Or does the device need a keyboard... then it come down to how much ok the kernel needs to be pure. And how much of the OS needs to follow the GNU standard.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Somebody told me last week that Linux was so simple even my Gran could use it. Maybe the perception that it's for old people is really what's holding back.
Literally been there recently. "Gran" was used to XP. Since she no longer cares about Word, Excel, etc and just wants a new PC with email and web browsing we talked about Linux. Since she had to learn a new environment either way she was OK with giving Linux a try. Going Linux would allow her to just use an old computer a grandkid had upgraded from (it had, gasp, Vista).
Then she spends a day with a friend who has an iPad. She decides that will do everything she needs, so we hold off on the PC and go with an old iPad that a grandkid had upgrade from. Its an iPad 2 running iOS 9 but if this experiment goes well then we'll get her a current iPad with iOS 11. The 9 to 11 transition should be minor.
They probably used Excel.
Have gnu, will travel.
I'll be happy to run Linux on my desktop just as soon as there is Microsoft Office for Linux Desktop. Sorry, I have to interact in email and on documents with all of my co-workers that run Windows or Mac. No, running Windows or Mac in a VM is not sufficient and neither is Wine or Libre Office. Its about applications.
We won?
Also, the "usual 1.5% figure for Linux" is generally for desktop OSes only... I mean, it's even in the OP's title... Here you have 44% of mobile OSes... So yeah, Linux did grow, and is now around 3% of desktops, from 1-2% before...
A company that specializes in rebranding of Window applications and claims the OS count of clients and putative clients to their site represents real world OS numbers is ridiculous. It is as phony as their market model, which tells putative clients to "choose" a program from their collection and change its "look and feel" (rebranding) and market it for "generous" incomes.
And, when has the gov ever got anything straight?
I prefer to use the data collected by a website that is visited by a broad ranger of surfers.
http://distrowatch.com/awstats/awstats.DistroWatch.com.osdetail.html
On that site 52% of visitors run Linux and 38% run Windows. 6% run Macs. It's numbers are as good as any other site.
While Windows and Mac have sales channel figures to report their total sales Linux does not. I carry a LiveUSB of KDE Neon User Edition in my watch pocket and it has been used to install Neon on several other machines besides my own. IOW, I downloaded it once and installed it many times. I'm not the only one doing that. Companies download a single ISO and install it on hundreds of work stations, where employees do "real" work. Hollywood, Banks, Military, Governments, fortune 500's, the London Stock Exchange (and others in that arena) all use Linux to do "real" work.
Back in 2004 Gartner reported that Linux was on 4% of all desktops, and in 2008 that number had risen to 8%. I suspect that it continued to climb. Check your browser agent and see what it is showing the Internet.
I'm reputedly smart. I design electronics for a living. My coworkers treat me like I'm Zeus - apparently I'm the 'smart' guy on the team or something. Whatever.
With that out of the way - I'm a recidivist Windows user. I use Linux every day in an embedded capacity and it's great for what it does - doing specific tasks relatively well. As a general purpose productivity operating system, it sucks when it comes to usability.
I was a proud Mac user for 10 years or so. There was a time where you couldn't find a Windows PC in the house. That time has since gone. Apple has gone the way of the 'dumb consumer', creating glued-together unserviceable hardware with an increasingly locked-down OS that seems to become more unusable and unstable as time goes on. Everything after OS X 10.6 seems to have gone progressively downhill. iTunes has the most unusable UI of any commercial application I've ever had the displeasure of using. To this day I still cannot find my way around iTunes 12 without having to explore the UI and clicking various inexplicable buttons wondering "maybe this is the one." My favourite feature is typing in a search in the iTunes store, hitting return, and getting thrown back to my music library. Or the incomprehensible meaning of the back button - is iTunes a web browser? Is it a music library? Is it both or neither? We'll never know because it seems to have a different function depending on which screen you push it. Ugh. My solution was to buy music elsewhere as my frustration had boiled over.
Desktop Linux has become an equally unusable schizophrenic amalgam of distros, desktop environments, etc. Maybe I'm getting old but I just don't have the time or patience to geek out with this shite anymore. I just need something that works, and that I can tinker with ONLY IF NEEDED.
Windows has fulfilled that middle ground I call "meh" - it's the new "it just [sorta] works." I went from owning zero Windows PCs to owning four in the last five years. They just do what I want and seem surprisingly stable. Microsoft seems to fix bugs based on feedback. I just don't have the time or patience to deal with Linux in a personal capacity anymore.
ah I still remember all the regular proclamations that now, finally, NOW, is the time for "linux on the desktop"
If right click menu options have been forgotten, and if it crashes when switching users, then many people will probably turn away. all of the basics need to work all the time. There needs to be a big list which is checked so that everything on the list works flawlessly at every release.
Dude, from one smartypants to another, use Mint. It's much more usable than Windows. Give it a try.
Two turkeys don't make an eagle, but no penguin will ever soar.
I've got probably 8+ devices, with different OS except no windows phone. This macOS box is the only one that really surfs. Don't ask what I do with the other devices. But just for sh*t and gigs, I changed the browser to detect my macOS as windows phone, so I can be the last 3 or so windows phone users on the net market share.
Exactly how does one tell the difference? It appears ChromeOS (or Chromium) is Linux (Gentoo) with a Google-built desktop and a custom set of tools. All the distros come with their own sets of tools. Is it required to have an approved UI to be considered Linux? Is there some sort of "official" approval committee?
People use iOS, Android, maybe sometimes ChromeOS.. they rarely use Windows, MacOSX or Linux if they don't have to/for job or are just used to it.
Basically only tech people doing more advanced things such as photo, video processing, 3d, programming, or specific areas like gaming are using desktops.
I use a Linux desktop personally and its great. Can my grandma set it up? No. Probably could barely setup OSX. Can use her phone just fine though.
But for advanced users, its quite good. DPI scaling works better than windows. Its faster, and uses little battery, just like OSX (granted that you use properly supported hardware, ie not Apple hardware..). Its super flexible. you can change or fix anything you want. Great for actual power users. Useless for the masses.
I went to the Mint website and there's literally half a dozen choices (twice that, if you count x86 vs x64). That's worse than MS with their "editions" at least MS ships the same desktop environment with each.... Christ.
The "problem" (if that's actually a problem because I'm glad not so many people use Linux that makes it a target for hackers) is the lack of information. Linux - actually the kernel wrappers OSes like Ubuntu, etc... because the kernel has been strong for a long time - improved tremendously over the past years. The software offer also improved greatly, looking at LibreOffice, The Gimp, browsers, photo software (RawTherapy, Darktable...), sound and video / graphics cards drivers, wi-fi, bluetooth, SSD management, USB 3, etc... Many people just do not know they have a strong and free alternative to WIndows and Mac.
The problem is also the big PC manufacturers, desktops and laptops (Dell, HP, Lenovo...) do not offer a tangible system that really reflects the use of OSS. There is a (kind of) logic to that. They sell 95% of pre-formatted PC Windows, and changing to Linux gives them more work ; reformat to use Linux etc... Why people would change to an unknown system they barely heard about if the PC with Windows prices the same as a Linux PC (while, in the long run, Linux should be cheaper overall [no virus, OSS, no need to upgrade every other year...])?
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
I keep seeing these derogatory comments, but let me remind you about 2004 being named "The year of the Linux Desktop".
Before that year not all desktop environments worked out of the box, and that year was the last time I had to tweak a stock installation. After that everyone had to make excuses for not installing Linux.
Heck, back in university even the most reluctant of the profs has been moved to Linux by 2001. The students have been using Linux-only since 1999. I know this is not representative of corporations, but is a good example.
Also, remember the Munich Linux project (and Ballmer's personal visit to Munich), the SCO lawsuit, Darl McBride's talk at MIT (with an armed bodyguard on stage next to him), and Ken Brown's "Samizdat" ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....
They all happened in the 2003-2004 time frame. A lot of corporations were looking at migrating Linux at that time, so the timing is not a coincidence. Especially the SCO lawsuit. It spooked a lot of corporations, and all the momentum was lost. Yes, that Microsoft-bankrolled (with RBC's support) lawsuit has succeeded. Don't think that because Groklaw is silent now those things did not happen and the current state of the Linux desktop is due entirely to the misguided efforts of the developers.
After 2004 the reason for not using Linux has become mainly political, and it still is today. But go to any large corporation and start to scratch a bit below the surface. The front-end is indeed Windows, but below that is Linux all the way down.
Linux as purely defined could be more popular if PC makers would offer more models with Linux installed. But clearly no Linux distro has the marketing investment to get this done. You have system 76 and a handful of Dell's and that's about it. Chromebooks have the success because of price, Google's marketing investment, and the fact consumers, businesses, and Education have been made aware of them. Most Linuux distro's rely on word of mouth to get users interested and that ends up being very few who actually choose Linux as a OS. This has always been the case, and probably will never change.
I went to the Mint website and there's literally half a dozen choices
You must really struggle when you go to buy a car or a TV...
I went to the mint download page and there were 4 x 32 bit and 4 x 64 bit versions.
And it says, "If you're not sure, Cinnamon 64 bit is the most popular"
It's not exactly rocket science.
But obviously for you to have even a few choices is bad. I mean, it's terrible being able to choose between lightweight desktops for old hardware and effects heavy desktops for new hardware.
It's appalling that you can choose a very traditional straightforward desktop like MATE rather than something more 'modern'.
Everyone should drive the same car, eat the same food and wear the same clothes, it would be much less confusing.
Do these figures count Kylin, which is just Ubuntu, and other international OS's? It would seem to me if you count the entire world linux has a huge share of desktops.
Linux is relatively secure by default. It can be secured further fairly easily. Typically all of your software will be obtained either from a secure channel or from source code. That's really par for the course in 2017. You can say mostly the same thing about Windows, aside from the teeming crowds of idiots who use it. However, Red Hat (for one) has removed claims about being virus-free from their ad copy, and I suspect that if IBM claims that, they aren't saying it where their lawyers can hear them.
Now I'd like to point out that your comment is ignorant, vapid, ungrammatical, and barely sensible in context. Which for six words is impressive. You're extremely consistent about lowering the signal-to-noise ratio here. Why don't you find some way to address that.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
there's no such thing as macOS anymore , last one was OS9 , since then it's freeBSD with a cute skin called darwin , so yes , linux has more users then macOS today
Have you actually even used ChromeOS? It is pretty locked-down by default, yes. You can however set it to developer mode with a key combination at boot, install crouton, and treat it like any other Linux box. Most Chromebooks will run XFCE pretty happily. As it happens, they can also run a fair number of Android apps, although I'm not sure why one would.
You have a far stronger argument in Android, but ChromeOS is Linux in every meaningful sense. It's locked-down to the point of absurdity, and its build process is atrocious, but c'mon, it's like four keystrokes to get to a developer shell running dash. If that's too much effort then we may have to confiscate your geek card.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
Better question, is there anyone in the Trump regime that IS NOT going to prison within the next 3 years?
None will, Trump will just pardon them all.
Are there still people out there who give a shit, instead of just happily using one?
I feel so sig.
All of this makes no sense to me. So what if there's a bunch of choices just fucking pick one. Having many choicea of something doesn't make one of those choices more difficult. Using windows machines is horribly inefficient to me now. No tabbed or split window file manager, no focus follows mouse, no virtual desktops or activity managers, no package manager, many build environments are a struggle to setup on windows, development tools are lackluster, terminal integration is poor, the registry is a confusing mess I never managed to learn after using nothing but windows from 1993 to 2009. In 8 years of using nothing but linux I understand completely how to configure any part of my computer.
What Alas? Linux is just shit. Why would any sane non-fucktard person use that garbage?
Oh noes! I "have" to configure things! The freedom! The horrible freedom!
Oh noes! I "have" to do it in a very simple text file, with documentation right above every option. It would have been "much better", to permanently switch between the keyboard and pointing at teensy-tiny areas every 5 seconds. (Btw, you know that since the config files are generic, a config UI can be too?)
Oh noes! Things are modular, and not one big config dump (--> registry)! What a "mess".
I never bothered to actually understand shit! I just cheat through life. And because Windows/OSX allow me to "get by", by simply letting the corporation think for me and choose what I want, I expect this to be the case with Linux too.
You do realize that these are advantages to me, right? Yes, having a choice is work! Yes, thinking for the first time in your walking daze of an existence, about what you actually want and who you actually are, is hard! Yes, barely anybody does that nowadays. ... But what actual human/individual in the world wouldn't! ... In the nicest way: Mentally "overwhelmed" people. That's who. Creatures that, at best, are entities of a swarm, that only as a whole can be considered an individual and a life-form. Entities that could not survive on their own. (E.g. "consumers" or "voters" [who actually aren't the one making the relevant choices].)
I bet you'd say a Hilti/Makita/ drill "gives [you] grief" too. Because it will actually allow you to fuck things up, because it assumes you know what you're doing. And doesn't treat you like a completely hopeless retard, like the consumer drills or Microsoft/Apple/KDE/Gnome/Mozilla/Google... .
Sorry, but if you were ever a "proud mac user" that automatically excludes you from being the "smart guy" on the team.
Not the first time, and won't be the last. Don't trust these suckers on anything.
but i dont know or hear or have seen anyone who has one so far ....
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?