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Technology Invading Nearly All US Jobs, Even Lower Skilled, Study Finds (reuters.com)

An anonymous reader shares a Reuters report: Forget robots. The real transformation taking place in nearly every workplace is the invasion of digital tools. The use of digital tools has increased, often dramatically, in 517 of 545 occupations since 2002, with a striking uptick in many lower-skilled occupations, according to a study released Wednesday by the Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank. The report underscores the growing need for workers of all types to gain digital skills and explains why many employers say they struggle to fill jobs, including many that in the past required few digital skills. There is anxiety about automation displacing workers and in many cases, new digital tools allow one worker to do work previously done by several. Those 545 occupations reflect 90 percent of all jobs in the economy. The report found that jobs with greater digital content tend to pay more and are increasingly concentrated in traditional high-tech centers like Silicon Valley, Seattle and Austin, Texas.

139 comments

  1. Digital Tool? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is a digital tool? Are they talking about computer-controlled equipment?

    1. Re:Digital Tool? by Drethon · · Score: 1

      From the article:

      "One of his tasks is to insert 56 bolts on the flywheel housing of each engine as it moves down the line and tighten the bolts in a certain sequence. He now uses a tool that is connected to a computer screen, which guides him to the right bolt and will not allow him to tighten the wrong one. It also knows exactly when the bolt is tight enough and then stops."

      Though I wonder if they also include digital time cards to get their numbers.

    2. Re:Digital Tool? by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And as soon as the robots get good at rapidly doing the fine positioning, that guy is going to be out of a job. Right now the robots do almost all the work, and the humans assist them. They're literally just lining things up for the robots that do the actual work. How much longer do people imagine those jobs will be necessary?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Digital Tool? by ClickOnThis · · Score: 2

      What is a digital tool? Are they talking about computer-controlled equipment?

      Look at your hand. That's a digital tool.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    4. Re:Digital Tool? by avandesande · · Score: 3, Funny

      Tightening bolts sounds boring- he would have much more fun as web developer!

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    5. Re:Digital Tool? by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      But that technology is somehow detrimental... "invading," not helping.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    6. Re:Digital Tool? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See "Hacker News" where web developers "Show HN" their pointless web apps. See wannabe trendy trend makers desperately make work for themselves because they have nothing of value to contribute to the economy.

    7. Re: Digital Tool? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I lost all my fingers in an accident, you insensitive clod!!

    8. Re:Digital Tool? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

      Robots are already good at fine precision. STEMs can position within nanometers

    9. Re:Digital Tool? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is a digital tool?

      I think they might be talking about really obnoxious A.I.

  2. That's the point by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Around 1920, wooden shipping pallets cut down about 83% of the labor involved in shipping: what took a crew three 16-hour days to load and unload now took four hours. It became efficient to stack goods, wrap them, then transfer them on the truck to go to a port, then the ship, destination dock, back onto truck, warehouse, truck, distribution center, truck, retail center. They might unpalletize, rearrange, and palletize to go to retail so as to tailor from bulk stock to store-specific need.

    A piece of wood.

    Ikea has changed the shape of one of their mugs twice so as to nearly triple the number they can ship on a truck--cutting out 2/3 of the labor of shipping them.

    This is what technology is. When someone says "automation", imagine a wooden shipping pallet. When they say, "It's coming for unskilled jobs!", imagine a dock worker. When they say, "It's coming for smart people's jobs this time!", imagine being a charge authorizor in American Express in 1988 (Authorizor's Assistant), or an accountant, or a market trader (look at all the automatic charting software). When they say, "It's coming for everyone's jobs this time!", look at pneumatic power tools and digital computers.

    That's right: it's always coming for everyone's jobs.

    1. Re:That's the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The wooden pallet is old news. The shipping container is revolutionary. Ninety percent of everything is shipped in a shipping container.

      Source: "Ninety Percent of Everything: Inside Shipping, the Invisible Industry That Puts Clothes on Your Back, Gas in Your Car, and Food on Your Plate" by Rose George

    2. Re:That's the point by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's right: it's always coming for everyone's jobs.

      Thanks for injecting some common sense into the typical "Technology is replacing workers!" hysteria. Technology introduces efficiency, and helps to reduce cost. Reduced cost usually translates to reduces prices as well, and increased demand. The classic example is the straight pin. A pin factory used to be able to make 5,000 pins a day. When automation was introduced, they were able to create about 70,000 pins per day. Prices dropped, demand increased and the net effect was more people working in the pin industry.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    3. Re:That's the point by geekmux · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's right: it's always coming for everyone's jobs.

      No, not quite.

      A piece of wood did not displace 90% of the workforce.

      All of the Authorizors Assistants, Accountants, and Market Traders in the world do not affect 90% of all jobs in the economy.

      THAT is the key difference when trying to compare the disruptors of yesteryear to what lies ahead.

      Next-gent automation is not just targeting the lowly unskilled worker we dismissed with the 100-year old "go get an education" mantra. Automation and good-enough AI is looking to replace highly-skilled and educated jobs.

      This story may sound redundant, but it's rather necessary, since most people still don't get it, and hold on to some bullshit It'll-never-happen-to-me mentality.

      When someone says automation, think massive impact.

    4. Re:That's the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm quite certain the poster knows about the container.

      The point he's making is that the pallet was the starting point, a fair bit earlier than the container. Compared to the pallet, a container really isn't that revolutionary, it's just the next logical step up.

    5. Re:That's the point by peragrin · · Score: 2

      Very true.

      I look at it this way. 30 years ago running a company with 5-6 people was difficult and you could reach a few thousand customers.

      Or a company of 20 people had an office staff of 5 for accounting, billing and invoicing.

      Now you can run a multi millio. Dollar company well products across the globe.

      Now that office staff can be 2-3 people and still be effective.

      Computers are great at doing the same task endlessly. Which drives humans crazy.

      At work there is one report. 6 years ago it took an hour to assemble, craft, and edit. A bit of excel some standardized outputting. That same takes 5 minutes. Most of that is saving and uploading to the internet

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    6. Re:That's the point by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It won't always be the pin industry. Sometimes, you don't need that many pins, people become unemployed, and then jobs are created in the button industry. Things get shaken up and it's bad for the worker, but good for the economy. This is why we need policies to protect labor while not halting progress--a challenging problem.

    7. Re:That's the point by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      These things are always happening in every industry. That's what technology is. There are hundreds of new processes everywhere, new tools, everything, coming out for every job you can think of.

      Take manufacture. Artisan manufacture--one person making one thing--takes forever. The assembly line makes workers more-efficient by giving them one redundant job for which they become highly-skilled and, thus, efficient. Then: cellular manufacture brings the tools used to make similar parts together, such that a worker would go to a certain U-shaped tool cell and move through with a work piece, building it from start to finish. It's just like the assembly line, but you waste less time on complex part assemblies, and so can produce the same output with fewer workers.

      We're always doing things like this. We're making nail guns, we're creating new kinds of machines, or we're coming up with new methods to approach a certain task. Nowadays we build machines--hard tools or software scripts--and call them "automation". It's the same thing we've been doing with every job at all times, continuously.

      So no, the wooden shipping pallet didn't affect every single job; something like the wooden shipping pallet was being rolled out for every single job at the time, had been for all of human history up to that point, has continued to be up to today, and is coming in our future.

    8. Re:That's the point by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 3, Interesting

      *nodding* The whole point of tools is to be useful and helpful to humans doing work. All of these things of which you speak are tools, and for the most part all of the things they're talking about under the general heading of "it's coming to take our jobs!" are also just tools. Unfortunately, 'feel-good fluff pieces' don't get ratings for news programs, or hits to news websites (I'd say 'doesn't sell newspapers' but we apparently don't have enough of those anymore to matter), so it's always the extreme, the shocking, and the awful; as a general mnemonic, let's just all all the above (and whatever else fits in the category) $CLICKBAIT, shall we? That's right, we've all been baited, and too many people are falling for it.

    9. Re:That's the point by Kjella · · Score: 1

      A piece of wood did not displace 90% of the workforce.

      Neither will this, it's a load of hyperbole. I bet that in the 80s you'd make the case that 90% of all occupations were somehow affected by PCs. And in the dotcom boom that 90% of the economy was affected by the Internet. Computers are great for solving problems, but a vast numbers of jobs involve a lot of figuring out what the problem actually is. I've no doubt that you can build an electrician-bot to do to the actual wiring, can it talk to the customer and figure out what he wants and needs? Why do people hire interior decorators when they got a zillion choices on Amazon? I'd love to see an AI try to figure out what my business users want, it'd probably short circuit and they'd ask if there's not some cheap Indian outsourcing company we could use instead. Maybe I wouldn't actually be writing code anymore, but I think a human-AI translator is a pretty lasting profession. Pretty sure doctors and nurses will be around in 100 years, even if they got exoskeletons and tele-presence. Yeah if you imagine far enough into the future maybe we'll have an auto-doc or the EMT from Voyager or the cure-all machine from Elysium but... fantasy. There will be jobs for humans and if we really start running short make some draconian anti-overtime laws so they'll have to spread them thin like say +100% bonus pay past 30 hrs/week. That way there'll probably be some work for everyone...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    10. Re:That's the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gee thanks! You've made us all feel better!

    11. Re:That's the point by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Might add that the job industry can become specialized and segmented ad-infinitum. Right now there are people who specialize, who dedicate their career to drawing fire, or cutting fingernails. There are people who spend their lives making timer circuits. The programmer industry is divided between front-end and back-end, and could easily segment even more.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    12. Re: That's the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have a robot that can do 50% of the work, you can fire 50% of the humans. You don't need a perfect robot like many bulieve.

    13. Re:That's the point by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      You should see the efficiency the pipe introduced over carrying clay pots of water.

    14. Re:That's the point by geekmux · · Score: 2

      A piece of wood did not displace 90% of the workforce.

      Neither will this, it's a load of hyperbole. I bet that in the 80s you'd make the case that 90% of all occupations were somehow affected by PCs. And in the dotcom boom that 90% of the economy was affected by the Internet. Computers are great for solving problems, but a vast numbers of jobs involve a lot of figuring out what the problem actually is. I've no doubt that you can build an electrician-bot to do to the actual wiring, can it talk to the customer and figure out what he wants and needs?

      Since when does the electrician talk to the customer? They're told what to install, by the foreman or GC. Much like an electrician-bot will, thus replacing thousands of human workers. And soon, the foreman or GC will be replaced in favor of click-to-order designs, with no need for a human to be involved.

      Why do people hire interior decorators when they got a zillion choices on Amazon? I'd love to see an AI try to figure out what my business users want, it'd probably short circuit and they'd ask if there's not some cheap Indian outsourcing company we could use instead.

      If you're running a business on the internet and not using analytics at this point, you're probably doing it wrong. You're probably already using Google. Or Amazon. Or some other data miner that provides useful analytics to help drive your business. That used to be a human doing that analysis. Not anymore.

      Maybe I wouldn't actually be writing code anymore, but I think a human-AI translator is a pretty lasting profession. Pretty sure doctors and nurses will be around in 100 years, even if they got exoskeletons and tele-presence.

      100 years ago very few people were driving around in a vehicle powered by internal combustion. We had barely gotten off the ground with flying. We hadn't even figured out how good penicillin really was in combating disease. We've done a fucking lot in the last 100 years. One would be foolish and stupid to even try and predict the next 100 years. If you would have spouted off about landing on the moon in a few decades back in 1917, you would be hauled off to the insane asylum.

      Yeah if you imagine far enough into the future maybe we'll have an auto-doc or the EMT from Voyager or the cure-all machine from Elysium but... fantasy. There will be jobs for humans and if we really start running short make some draconian anti-overtime laws so they'll have to spread them thin like say +100% bonus pay past 30 hrs/week. That way there'll probably be some work for everyone...

      My previous comments highlight our inability to predict the future. You cannot even imagine where we will be in the next few decades. 20 years ago the majority of society were still using modems to dial up to the internet, and no one would have predicted 1Gb speeds over fiber in your home within the next two decades. And yet, here we are.

      Humans think they can predict the future, but have proven time and time again that they actually suck at it. You are no exception. Your "future" is closer than you could ever imagine. And the impact will be as unpredictable.

    15. Re:That's the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EXCEPT.... sometimes automates things that are prohibitively expensive to be done by humans today. End result we get more of those things for cheap and since humans weren't doing them before, whole new jobs suddenly appear.

    16. Re:That's the point by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Thank you, well stated. This "comin' to take our jerbs!" mantra we're hearing these days is bordering on the absurd. Technology is *always* making some jobs obsolete or reducing labor costs. I'd bet the same thing happened in the shipping industry with standardized intermodal containers.

      My parents owned a light manufacturing company for many years. They lived through the age of computerization, and some specific jobs certainly became obsolete. They never fired anyone because of this, though. Instead, people were cross-trained, operated new machines, and so on. Over time, even more employees were hired as the business grew.

      I also have to chuckle at people who believe AI or robots are going to take over all or even most blue collar jobs. Many white-collar workers apparently can't envision anything beyond a McDonalds or assembly-line worker. There are thousands of other types of jobs that are, at our current and near-future level of technology, still very impractical or even impossible to automate.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    17. Re:That's the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's right: it's always coming for everyone's jobs.

      Where is the profit going now?

    18. Re:That's the point by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      It won't always be the pin industry. Sometimes, you don't need that many pins, people become unemployed, and then jobs are created in the button industry. Things get shaken up and it's bad for the worker, but good for the economy. This is why we need policies to protect labor while not halting progress--a challenging problem.

      That's true, but the point I was trying to make is that introducing technology might be disruptive, but it's not doom and gloom--though it might seem that way for a little while.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
  3. Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought this was a given. Technology has been invading every space from manufacturing to retail to medicine to law....everywhere. It's everywhere. Full automation + robots is just the next step.

    Pretty soon, the only thing you'll have to do at the grocery store is weigh your produce and indicate which produce item it is, and everything else will scan automatically and be billed to your bank account or credit card on your way out the door. It's not here yet, but....it's coming.

    1. Re:Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty soon, the only thing you'll have to do at the grocery store is weigh your produce and indicate which produce item it is, and everything else will scan automatically and be billed to your bank account or credit card on your way out the door. It's not here yet, but....it's coming.

      It's here already.

      Self checkout is even simpler in the real world, right now, than your futurist utopia. Let's say you're buying bananas. Here's what you do.

      Tap "brought my own bag" and tap "add grocery item" and tap "bananas" and tap the number of bananas in the bunch. Tap "pay" and "with cash" and feed your cash into the machine. Done. At no point do your bananas need to be weighed or scanned or touch the machine.

    2. Re: Umm...duh? by orlanz · · Score: 1

      I think it is news for those born before 1970 and/or thought computers were the only electronic thing around. I remember even in Middle school thinking âoeWhy isnâ(TM)t this easierâ when doing a labor. If anything this âoetool upgradeâ has been too slow in adoption. My guess is that the old folks that grew up in a macro electronics world and didnâ(TM)t see micro controllers in everything are retiring and being replaced by those who did. So now the people who always thought it should be easier are implementing what is common sense to them.

    3. Re:Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tap "brought my own bag" and tap "add grocery item" and tap "bananas" and tap the number of bananas in the bunch. Tap "pay" and "with cash" and feed your cash into the machine. Done. At no point do your bananas need to be weighed or scanned or touch the machine.

      Too much tapping. That just transfers the labor from the cashier to the customer, like happened with bag boys.

      What I want is to put the bananas in my bag and leave. My store account is charged and I get e-mailed a receipt.

    4. Re:Umm...duh? by Anon-Admin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What store do you shop at? The ones around here tend to go along these lines.

      Tap "Start" and then tap "I dont have a store card", tap "I do not want to sign up for a store card", tap "I do not want to give money to XXX Charity", tap "produce", search through the produce screen tell you find bananas, tap "bananas", Put bananas on the scales, system gets weight and tells you to bag the bananas, place bananas in the bag and the system alerts "Extra item in bag please remove the item.", you take the bananas out of the bag and the system tells you to bag the bananas, place them back in the bag and the system alerts "Extra item in bag please remove the item.", get attendent over to tell the machine it is wrong, select "Finish and pay", tap "Use card", system instructs you to use the card reader, swipe card (sometimes multiple times for it to read), tap "Yes $xx.xx is correct", tap "I dont have a store card", tap "I do not want to sign up for a store card", tap "I do not want to give money to XXX Charity", System prints a receipt, Attendant checks your bag to make sure you did not put anything in it that you did not pay for, you go home.

    5. Re:Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want to confirm my transaction before I pay, and I want to complete my transaction before I leave, which is why I pay the machine immediately and in cash.

      In your scenario, you give the store too much opportunity to claim you bagged things that you didn't bag and to charge your account for items that you didn't buy. It sure sounds like you want to be scammed.

    6. Re:Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tap "brought my own bag" and tap "add grocery item" and tap "bananas" and tap the number of bananas in the bunch. Tap "pay" and "with cash" and feed your cash into the machine. Done. At no point do your bananas need to be weighed or scanned or touch the machine.

      Too much tapping. That just transfers the labor from the cashier to the customer, like happened with bag boys.

      What I want is to put the bananas in my bag and leave. My store account is charged and I get e-mailed a receipt.

      Amazon is already trying that out with some of their brick & mortar stores. You install an app on your phone, the app reads the RFID tags on the produce, pay via the app and walk out the door. Sam's Club does something similar with their Scan & Go app. You fire up the app when you enter the store, push around your cart and scan the UPC barcode of each item with the app as you shop. When you are done, you hit a button on the app saying you are done, a barcode comes up on your phone screen and a person by the door scans that barcode. Your bank account is automatically charged. Bypass the checkout lines totally. Have used it several time myself. Just be careful and not double-scan an item by accident and not delete the duplicate, else you will over-charge yourself. The person by the door barely looks at your cart as you leave.

    7. Re:Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You fire up the app when you enter the store, push around your cart and scan the UPC barcode of each item with the app as you shop. When you are done, you hit a button on the app saying you are done, a barcode comes up on your phone screen and a person by the door scans that barcode. Your bank account is automatically charged.

      Too much tapping. I'm a macho weenie, and I want to get that sick rush from pretending to be a badass shoplifter. But I still want to sign up for a store account with my real name and address, and I'll pay whatever the store says I owe, because I'm a total pussy.

    8. Re:Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So badass...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk

      NO DON'T GIVE ME A RECEIPT I'M A BADASS

    9. Re:Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It sounds like you think stores want to drive customers away?

    10. Re:Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It sounds like you think giant chain stores have competition to worry about. It's a seller's market and consumers don't have any power. Mom and pop stores are already dead. The consumers are a captive market, can't afford to shop elsewhere, and risk getting banned from stores for complaining. The only place the stores would drive consumers away is to their own online shopping sites where they can trick their visitors with deceptive advertising.

    11. Re:Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... System prints a receipt ...

      Question: Does the system print a separate receipt for the charity donation? Or, has the US system of making employees pay for corporate PR, now been extended to its customers?

    12. Re:Umm...duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good service is expensive to provide. However, poor levels of service (compared to expectations) lose business. So the goal of business is to gradually reduce customer service expectations so customer losses are tolerable and service expenses are minimized. Crappy service in and of itself is irrelevant.

  4. In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Republicans are convinced that slashing the US corporate tax rate to 20 percent will be a veritable engine of job creation.

    1. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Obviously! The corporations are going to take those extra tax savings and reinvest it domestically to create new jobs instead of dividing it up to the corporate bobble heads in the form of massive bonuses! /s

    2. Re:In other news by gfxguy · · Score: 2

      And, sadly, most people don't understand that corporate taxes are taxes on YOU, not the companies. The CBO says corporate taxes mostly affect the employees of that company; but corporate taxes are part of doing business, and thus passed onto their customers. Even if the customers are other businesses, those costs all eventually get passed down to retail. Period. But if it makes you feel better, keep complaining.

      I wouldn't argue that cutting it necessarily helps job creation, only time will tell if that would really happen, but if you don't think companies compete on prices (*), and that prices would come down through competition (and you realize a lot of products have razor thin margins already - because of competition), then tell me what you're smoking.

      (*) yes, some companies do things like collude and do other anti-competitive things, but that's already illegal.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    3. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A couple of comments regarding your corporatist talking points:
      1. While generally true that corporate taxes get passed on to retail, there are various subtleties here worth mentioning. Some goods are exported and thus the taxes are passed on to foreign consumers. Also, taxes passed on via retail are mostly optional - consumers have the option of not purchasing the product and consequently not paying the accompanying taxes.
      2. You could just as easily make the argument that taxes on individuals are passed on to companies. The more you tax individuals, the higher their salaries will need to be to cover them, and the less money they will spend on the goods and services that corporations produce.

      The point you're missing, or perhaps purposefully omitting, is that corporate taxes aren't taken solely from the wages of workers or the costs of production. Some of the money, perhaps a lot of it, comes from the profits taken by the owners of the company, and as such are a useful way of taxing the 1% who are typically of the ownership class, even if they manage to avoid taxation via exploitation of loopholes in the individual tax code.

    4. Re:In other news by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      The same bullshit logic can apply to personal taxes. I don't pay taxes, they cause me to adjust my salary requirements upwards as I pass them on to my employer. So personal taxes are taxes on corporations.

      Now we can get back to reality, where prices are not infinitely flexible and passing onto consumers is not an actual thing. By artifically attempting to pass on the prices they slide down on the supply curve to and sell fewer items. Who bares the brunt of that difference? The company. Or they don't change their price and sell the same amount. Again the company bears that (and indirectly stockholders and employees).

      So yes, corporate taxes are a real thing, and aren't indirect taxes on consumers. Learn some fucking economics instead of right wing talking points.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    5. Re:In other news by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      I'm not purposefully leaving anything, just giving a view most people don't consider.

      What I wrote is largely (almost entirely) true, for example. There is a trade deficit, so those taxes, by and large, affect mostly American consumers, for example and, for another, MOST taxes are not those end consumer goods of the type that get exported - most of them end up coming in the forms of services and, even for goods, things like shipping.

      You could make the argument that income taxes are passed on to companies - it wouldn't necessarily be wrong, but when we compare the two the problem I have with corporate income taxes are that they are hidden from consumers, so most people support them and even want them to be higher because they don't get that it's costing them money. The more confusing the government makes the system, the more it can tax people who don't understand how it works, even getting their support. As I said, even the CBO said that the most affected people are the employees.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    6. Re:In other news by gfxguy · · Score: 2

      As I said, even the CBO stated the primary loser in corporate income taxes are the employees. Taxes are an expense of running business; companies get their money from their customers. Q.E.D.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
  5. Stale story? by grasshoppa · · Score: 1

    This story would have been blindingly obvious were it published 10 years ago. Today it's more like stating the sky is blue. Water is wet.

    Guess someone's getting paid by the word, eh?

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    1. Re:Stale story? by gtall · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Congress and the Administration are getting paid not to get the word. Let's make those coal jobs great again....oh, those are being automated away. Let's devalue science and scientists because experts don't know nothin'.

    2. Re:Stale story? by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Friend, we're talking about Republicans, here; it's not that 'science and scientists don't know nothing', it's that 'science and scientists are evil minions of Satan, trying to deceiving the Faithful to sway them from the True Path of Righteousness with their LIES'. Then there's the Dominionists, whose general agenda includes accelerating the onset of the Apocalypse, because they think that'll bring Zombie Jesus back from the dead sooner; to them, the Earth is only 'temporary', and therefore expendable, so why bother taking care of it? Zombie Jesus will come to take the Faithful home again! Or so they think.

    3. Re: Stale story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Almost slightly funny, but you should try harder next time.

      Not a zombie, though. He's alive!

    4. Re: Stale story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think that was supposed to be funny at all.

  6. Not a story by sjbe · · Score: 2

    There is anxiety about automation displacing workers and in many cases, new digital tools allow one worker to do work previously done by several.

    We are a species of tool makers. That is what tools do - they multiply our productivity. It's what tools have ALWAYS done. This is nothing new, especially since the industrial revolution. You WANT tools that multiply the productivity of people especially in a place like America which has 1/4 the population of China. Those tools (even for low skill workers) are what allow us to enjoy the high wages and standard of living we have. Don't like it? Too bad. The status quo is not an option and you don't want it to be either. If we go backwards that would be a problem FAR worse than any displacement of portions of the workforce that have been made redundant by technology.

    1. Re:Not a story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hate to break it to you, but US productivity has been going through a slump.

    2. Re:Not a story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A Trump Slump, yes.

  7. Commas or States missing? by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1

    "high-tech centers like Silicon Valley, Seattle and Austin, Texas"

    So, is that Seattle and Austin, both in Texas or are they being inconsistent with their usage of states attached to the city? (that's a rhetorical question)

    --
    -SaNo
    1. Re:Commas or States missing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seattle is in Canada dumass.

    2. Re:Commas or States missing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? Clearly the city of Silicon Valley is in the state of Seattle based on the punctuation in the original sentence!

    3. Re:Commas or States missing? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Seattle is in Canada dumass.

      Maybe everyone can get jobs pumping toilet water.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  8. Ya don't say... by evolutionary · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately (in my opinion as an IT professional) it is scary how much we rely on computer based systems for virtually every job, even manual labor (voice and written communications, status updates, measurement, automation, the list is pretty big .Some schools won't even teach handwriting in favor of "typing" with tablets (?!?). (Why not real computers to give a real education rather than limited, weak, "toy" that is not use in the work place as much as some want to think, because you can't really type well on them). A minor disruption to a few key severs in California or New York, can apparently bring virtually 2/3 of US operations slowing down, or evening to a stop. We probably should be considering how dependent we are on computers and ask ourselves: Should we be?

    --
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
    1. Re:Ya don't say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately (in my opinion as an IT professional) it is scary how much we rely on computer based systems for virtually every job,

      Tell us more about how automation is going to replace:

      massage therapists
      hospice care workers
      physical therapists
      practical nurses
      mental health professionals
      food safety inspectors

      but until then you are just a lying sack of shit or a myopic idiot

    2. Re:Ya don't say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Devil's advocate here:

      >massage therapists
      Massage robots
      >hospice care workers
      Assisted suicide legalization
      >physical therapists
      Physical therapy video feeds delivered from name-your-low-cost-country
      >practical nurses
      Robots and standardization of medical procedures
      >mental health professionals
      Not sure about that one
      >food safety inspectors
      Chemical sensors to detect microorganisms and spoilage

    3. Re:Ya don't say... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Some schools won't even teach handwriting in favor of "typing" with tablets (?!?).

      And they don't teach proper calligraphy anymore at all.

      And they expect you to be able to read silently! Can you believe that? Reading without saying the words out loud?!

      Yes, once upon a time, writing included calligraphy, and reading wasn't something that was done without pronouncing the words aloud.

      In other words, why should they teach handwriting? Makes about as much sense as teaching modern students how often to dip their pen in an inkwell to keep their writing clear. Or teaching horsemanship instead of driver's ed....

      We probably should be considering how dependent we are on computers and ask ourselves: Should we be?

      And we should be considering how dependent we are on agriculture and ask ourselves: Should we be?

      Or we can get a bit more modern by replacing "agriculture" with "papermaking", or "ironworking", or "plowing"....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    4. Re:Ya don't say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Devil's advocate here:

      >massage therapists
      Massage robots
      >hospice care workers
      Assisted suicide legalization
      >physical therapists
      Physical therapy video feeds delivered from name-your-low-cost-country
      >practical nurses
      Robots and standardization of medical procedures
      >mental health professionals
      Not sure about that one
      >food safety inspectors
      Chemical sensors to detect microorganisms and spoilage

      Yeah the devil has too many chronic injuries to cook on his own, and the robot massager doesn't understand, so he went out to dinner and he got food posioning because the cook figured out how to fool the sensors. The hospital misdiagnosed his injury because the robot couldn't get a good sample. Now he lies in hospice care covered in shit because the robot won't change his diaper.

    5. Re:Ya don't say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some schools won't even teach handwriting in favor of "typing" with tablets (?!?).

      And they don't teach proper calligraphy anymore at all.

      And they expect you to be able to read silently! Can you believe that? Reading without saying the words out loud?!

      Yes, once upon a time, writing included calligraphy, and reading wasn't something that was done without pronouncing the words aloud.

      In other words, why should they teach handwriting? Makes about as much sense as teaching modern students how often to dip their pen in an inkwell to keep their writing clear. Or teaching horsemanship instead of driver's ed....

      We probably should be considering how dependent we are on computers and ask ourselves: Should we be?

      And we should be considering how dependent we are on agriculture and ask ourselves: Should we be?

      Or we can get a bit more modern by replacing "agriculture" with "papermaking", or "ironworking", or "plowing"....

      Calligraphy is teaching child eye-to-hand coordination in the age when you cannot give him handgun or a car.
      This is important part of overall brain development, which future generations will be missing.

    6. Re: Ya don't say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Blah, blah, blah, something, something, stupid bullshit I made up because I thought it'd make me sound smart and snarky. "

      FTFY.

      Shame on the original reply for feeding the troll -- who I assume is you, as the list of occupations was stated in much the same, "know it all" manner when it wasn't a hard list to refute...not even remotely.

    7. Re: Ya don't say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shame on the original reply for feeding the troll -

      shame on you for feeding the troll

  9. Techbro Ageism invading every HR dept by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The revolution will come when everyone over 30 is unemployed and unemployable. Social media billionaires will pay taxes for a civil society, or receive a bullet to the head.

  10. Productivity by Kohath · · Score: 2, Funny

    This (plus AI, Uber, and less regulation) are how we’re going to get the economy out of the decades-long productivity slump. More economic output per hour worked is always good.

    1. Re:Productivity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      Good news, peon. Productivity has improved to the point where the economy doesn't need you. Have fun trying to earn a living when you own zero capital and you work zero hours. You die now.

    2. Re:Productivity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure. As long as the productive people are the ones getting the money.

      Oh wait, there's a problem.

    3. Re:Productivity by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

      no the jail / prison will cover up at a cost to the state of about 30K-40K+ year.

  11. Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fight for $15 = I cannot compete with (or barely use) computers and have worked the same entry-level job at McDonalds for eight years, and despite in all those years I have never been able to find a single company willing to pay me more than minimum wage because I am so incompetent, I am going to attacking the one place willing to actually employ me.

    1. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by ErichTheRed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not sure i agree with that. First, any business who can't afford to pay an employee $15 an hour shouldn't be hiring employees...let the owner do all the work if they don't want to cut into their profits. Second, outside of the technology bubble live millions of people exactly like you describe. Don't forget that IQ is normally distributed and even people with potential for intelligence grow up in some really crappy circumstances that interfere with their ability to succeed.

      Seriously, low-end employers make enough to pay a decent minimum wage. A pizza place can charge $15 for a single pizza and makes hundreds a day. McDonald's takes in tons of money every day and only a fraction of that goes out as labor costs.

    2. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by laurencetux · · Score: 1

      witness the number of McDonalds where they have KIOSKs to order from and they now bring your order to your table.

      the math goes
              if the cost of manual methods become more than 90% of the cost of automation
                        then automate
                        else wait

    3. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      McDonald's takes in tons of money every day and only a fraction of that goes out as labor costs.

      Except that McDonald's stores all over the place are closing because nobody wants to eat that crap. They can't afford to pay the employees they have now.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by Gilgaron · · Score: 2

      I may be misremembering from when I was in school, but I recall that labor was the biggest cost at the fast food places I worked. The food itself was about a dime per meal, and most of the cost of a drink was the paper cup. It could go upside down pretty quickly if there was a big sports game on and foot traffic dried up during what was normally a rush.

    5. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Informative

      When I worked at McDonald's four decades ago, minimum wage was very close to $15 in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation.

      They also had more workers at the average store than today because almost every process was 100% manual (they even had the cashiers scribble out totals and tax by hand arithmetic for some reason, even though cash registers had been able to do that for about a century).

      Somehow, McDonald's managed to survive. (I'd bet that getting real cash registers had more to do with McDonald's subsequent success than lowering workers' wages.)

    6. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The price of the actual food is generally around 30% of the menu price.

    7. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When I worked at McDonald's four decades ago, minimum wage was very close to $15 in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation

      Not quite. USA minimum wage 40 years ago (1977) was $2.30, worth about $9.50 today.

    8. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So.What does that have to do with anything?

    9. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by cyberchondriac · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why not?? Not every job is supposed to be one you can live off of. Low wage jobs are often a way to break into the labor force and gain some experience, perfect for kids and students.
      Trying running your own small business, I think your attitude would change quickly, once you see how labor costs stack up quickly, but have to deal with responsibility of handling x number of customers, managing inventory, managing the books.. one person can only do so much; then there's paying lease, heat, electricity, water/sewer, worker's comp, business tax, inventory tax, etc..
      It's especially hard for small businesses because many of the federal regulations that are no financial obstacle for MegaCorp are quite difficult for Ma and Pa Corner Store. On top of that, because they tend to be smaller, when they order wholesale, they don't get the quantity discounts that MegaCorp gets.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    10. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by VeryFluffyBunny · · Score: 2

      Oh, so McDonald's isn't exploiting its workers for profit, it's doing it to teach precarious workers what it feels like to be exploited and give them valuable experience and skills in that. How generous of them! BTW, the vast majority of McDonald's workers are single parents and college dropouts with crippling debt who can't find a better job. How's this 'experience' supposed to help them find 'a job they can live off of'?

      --
      Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
    11. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by i286NiNJA · · Score: 2

      Having mcdonalds or wal-mart on a resume would hurt you on all but the most menial positions.
      You'd be literally better off lying that you mowed lawns and shoveled driveways.

    12. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GP is a waffle iron. Hardware is paid differently from people.

    13. Re: Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So your answer for these poor people who can barely get a job is they should attack the only company willing to give them a paycheck so that they are more quickly fired and replaced by a robot that never calls in sick, takes breaks, spits in the food, gets orders wrong or files workers comp?

    14. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by hai_Priesty · · Score: 1

      That was what we were taught as a rough business guideline too, for someone who want to go into a eatery business.

      But depeding on the food mix I suspect for many types of settings - like small eateries in places that serves more like drink stand or more expensive coffee places it's way less than 30% - 5 cents coffees that sells more $1 or 50-cent (including whipped cream and spices) gourment coffee selling at $6 - most drinks have costs less than 20% of selling price. Perhaps even less than 10%.

    15. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      That's not MacDonald's fault that they're nearly all, as you claim, "single parent and college dropouts".
      Or is that on their application: "Only single parents and college dropouts need apply" -?
      Long live the proletariat, right komrade?

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    16. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by VeryFluffyBunny · · Score: 1

      So you agree that the majority of McDonald's employees aren't using it as a stepping stone to bigger and better things? And you probably won't disagree that having worked for McDonald's doesn't look great on a resume, unless you're an employer looking for meek workers who are weak willed and easily led. All the more reason to support a living wage for ALL jobs.

      --
      Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
    17. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      I alluded to no such thing. I just said if anyone is in that situation, it's not MacDonald's fault. Most everyone I went to school with did in fact use fast food as a stepping stone, then moved on. Just like when I had a paper route when I was 12 years old. Should that pay $15 a hour too?

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    18. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by VeryFluffyBunny · · Score: 1

      Your personal anecdote doesn't reflect the experiences of the majority of McDonald's employees.

      Why are you so mean to people whose only option is to be exploited?

      --
      Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
    19. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      I love how when Real Life doesn't fit the purely ideological narrative, it's dismissed as "personal anecdote".
      But your second line...so many logical fallacies there, I'm thinking maybe I deserve a "whoosh"..does my sarcasm detector needs a tune up?

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    20. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by VeryFluffyBunny · · Score: 1

      Not an ideological narrative: McDonald's exploits its workers. For most, it's not a stepping stone to bigger and better things. Anecdotal evidence, particularly when n=1, doesn't negate conclusions based on the majority of cases.

      Re: logical fallacies, are you talking about your own comments? e.g. "I love how when Real Life doesn't fit the purely ideological narrative, it's dismissed as "personal anecdote" as a counter argument = category error

      --
      Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
    21. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consider this. Most petty criminals you deal with now are stupid sociopaths.
      I would happily steal from people who I felt kind of deserved it long before I ever took another job at mcdonalds or wal-mart. It is unlikely that I would get caught because I'm more intelligent than your average theif.

      The more often circumstance pushes intelligent people into the criminal class the more unruly our entire society will become. You ever feel like every single company and business transaction in country X needs to be viewed with suspicion? That's what happens when you fail to appease those smart enough to get away with fucking you just enough to keep themselves comfortable.

      Society, business, and government will degenerate into a thousand small mafias, This happens over and over again, to every race, in every page of history, in difference countries, espousing both capitalist and socialistic values. The brains of the underclass will turn to organized crime and the peons of the world will exploit every opportunity to put a squeeze on their environment. Ketchup, toilet paper, silverware, meat, straws. Everyone will try to shave their fair share off their employer's stock inventory. Every piece of metal not tied down will be up for grabs.

      If you happen to be the poor honest sap who goes to mcdonalds and does an honest days work you'll still have to endure the end of day rectal cavity searches. As a matter of fact we all will as we slowly become more and more used to draconian measures to protect profit.

      There is no argument against this logic it is a common occurrence, I would not even be surprised if the current state of relatively civil society that most of the west and a few other places get to enjoy is a fragile aberration and the life I've described above is actually the norm. The holidays are coming up so maybe it would do you well to brush up on your dickens, merry christmas you insufferable prick.

    22. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're already doing this anyhow. If they don't want to pay $15 an hour they can get a retard to bag groceries. As long as he mops the flood slower than a normal person come close time.. they don't have to pay him $15/hr!

      On top of that you don't even have to pay people under twenty 5 measly dollars an hour for their first 90 days of employment. Since you're a small business expert and shit you knew all about this.
      (I doubt you have a business, you're a fraud like joe the plumber)

    23. Re:Fight for $15? More like adios, muchachos by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      Found the Antifa douchbag.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
  12. Not compatible with our current economy by ErichTheRed · · Score: 4, Informative

    Forget about the automation itself -- if there is a sudden massive drop in employment then the economy as a whole is toast. In the developed world, the entire economy is based around the idea that people sell their labor for money, which is then used to buy goods produced by people working for money. Even the Great Depression had unemployment numbers in the 25% range -- that was a mess and automation is poised to put way more people out of work. Deindustrialization has been devastating to parts of the US and Europe, but it's been slow-ish. The next wave of job removal is not just multiple times faster, but affects more of the economy as well. And this time, it doesn't matter how educated you are...doctors and lawyers will only be able to keep their jobs because they have professional organizations that will never allow them to be unemployed. What about everyone else?

    I think that if you want to keep the status quo, you're going to have to figure out a way to keep giving money to people via a variety of means. Either you go the basic income route and make work an add-on to the essentials, or you establish a New Deal era program to provide an employer of last resort, or a combination of the two.

    A personal example I would like to cite is drawn from my experience doing IT work in large organizations. Even with companies pushing to offshore and outsource everything, there are still tons of full time employees drawing decent salaries doing work that is basically a shell script plus knowledge of organizational politics. What worries me is that we're still pumping out tons of college graduates every year who are going to be expecting a job like this. I got a science degree, but hung out with tons of people in various soft subject degrees in college. Those people did the bare minimum level of work and just showed up to group interviews for large companies their senior year. Those big companies gave them some kind of random entry level job with a career path that might make them managers, directors and VPs someday. If companies don't need tons of C-student psychology or business majors, then the educational system breaks down too.

    1. Re:Not compatible with our current economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Henry George provided the solution to this over a century ago. Land Value Tax + Citizen's Dividend.

      An economy based on trading labor for capital while ignoring the role of land is unsustainable when labor is just an abstraction for energy.

    2. Re:Not compatible with our current economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody makes the "this job is just a shell script" complaint more than me, but i think you're painting with an overly broad brush. I know this is /. but non-technical corporate domains also have difficult edge-case scenarios and nightmarish interfaces (that is, between the department and with legal requirements, outside companies, etc).

    3. Re:Not compatible with our current economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy crap that's deep.

    4. Re:Not compatible with our current economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Human labour just converts 2 base resources; natural elements (wood, fish, etc) and time (seeds, money, etc)*; into something useful. Gains tax (shares, property, interest earned) is a way of taxing an asset's time. Income tax is, in most instances, a way of taxing a human's time. Property tax and resource duties already exist, mostly as a way of recompense for the extra burden placed on district infrastructure by corporations.

      Because the true source of wealth has a small base, such a taxation system is possible. Under the American system of local taxation, it doesn't improve much. Poor people will pay little land tax which in turn means schools and hospitals in that district, will remain underfunded.

      *: Generative resources, that is, livestock and orchards are both types of resources simultaneously. I use the examples of wood and fish because most times, they are not farmed, that is, not produced by the human 'application' of time.

  13. Work is always changing. by TiggertheMad · · Score: 2

    Well stated.

    Moreover, as soon as you can do the work in half the time, you get handed double the workload. People see work as going away and becoming scarce but in reality there is more work being undertaken as we become more efficient at it. To expand on the parent post, once we figure out how to ship packages more efficiently, we now have time to track each package as it travels, something that would have been impossible 100 years ago. Once that is fully automated with zero human involvement, there will be some other type of work undertaken that was previously thought impossible.

    There is always more worthwhile work to do, automation and technology just changes the nature of the work.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
    1. Re:Work is always changing. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      People see work as going away and becoming scarce but in reality there is more work being undertaken as we become more efficient at it.

      As we are operating today, that is not a feature. As long as we are using extractive and/or polluting methods to feed, clothe, transport, and entertain ourselves, the more work we do, the more rapidly we usher on our demise.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Work is always changing. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and look at what happens. Cars today contain the expensive, high-end, luxury features of 1990s cars. Computing technology has improved ridiculously, and new applications have come with it. Phones aren't tethered to the walls. We eat food out of home much more because food is cheaper and cooking takes too damned long (not really: it takes too long if you don't have a dishwasher and don't know how to cook). Clothing is cheaper, utilities are cheaper. Our paychecks are bigger, and the median income has grown faster than expenditure on the same necessities--even houses are bigger, although the housing market had some fun with mortgage rates and exciting get-rich-quick schemes that have messed that up a little over the past decade and a half.

      People today have on average more communications, more entertainment, and less spending on necessities. Then: they complain they haven't gotten any richer in 40 years.

      I want to move toward a 32-hour work week by taking some of that productivity and converting it to free time. As we grow our efficiency, we trim the work week down a bit.

    3. Re:Work is always changing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We eat food out of home much more because food is cheaper and cooking takes too damned long (not really: it takes too long if you don't have a dishwasher and don't know how to cook).

      Only if you eat off the dollar menu (does that even exist anymore) at McDonalds all the time. I've tracked when I ate out a lot vs mostly cooked and took leftovers to work, I spent over three times as much if I went to lunch every day and went through the drive through on the way home, even if I was doing stuff like cooking ribs and smoking a pork loin every week.

    4. Re:Work is always changing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that the whole point? Profits?

    5. Re:Work is always changing. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      We eat food out of home much more because food is cheaper

      Food prices have jumped significantly in the last decade.

      Clothing is cheaper, utilities are cheaper.

      What? They aren't, either. Energy costs have gone up and we have reached peak cotton and clothing costs have gone up as well, unless you have switched to inferior nasty plastic crap.

      Our paychecks are bigger, and the median income has grown faster than expenditure on the same necessities

      Wait, what? The minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation in decades.

      I want to move toward a 32-hour work week by taking some of that productivity and converting it to free time. As we grow our efficiency, we trim the work week down a bit.

      Well, the people who own everything think that's a shitty idea. They'd rather pocket the money, and you can go fuck yourself, and so can I, and everyone else too. And in fact, this is precisely what's happening. They are getting a bigger and bigger share of the profit, and we're getting a smaller one.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Work is always changing. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Wait, what? The minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation in decades.

      Use the median income. The minimum-wage is a red-herring: it's a policy set to ensure that the person at the bottom has a livable income--and, as a policy, it exists because certain classes of labor naturally balance out to have too little power to reflect the growth of wealth (or anything else). The median income tells you whether wage raises are actually happening--unless your country is so broken that everyone makes minimum wage because the employers are your slavemasters.

      Food prices have jumped significantly in the last decade.

      Not as a percentage of the median income.

      clothing costs have gone up as well,

      From 12% of the median income in the 80s to under 3% of the median income in the modern era.

      Really, dollar values as an argument? You need to discuss prices as a pie chart of fixed total size.

    7. Re:Work is always changing. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Use the median income. The minimum-wage is a red-herring:

      No, it isn't, and I'll tell you why in just a moment.

      The median income tells you whether wage raises are actually happening--unless your country is so broken that everyone makes minimum wage because the employers are your slavemasters.

      Not everyone, but enough to make a significant difference.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Work is always changing. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Oh it's enough to matter, for sure--that's why there's a giant minimum-wage debate. We didn't raise the minimum wage for over a decade, so it became smaller (due to inflation). Now we've pinned it to CPI inflation. I want to create a Universal Dividend pinned to productivity using income as a proxy: everyone (adult, planned to eventually be 16+) gets a share of a fixed portion of the income (15%, planned to eventually reach 10%), which grows faster than CPI inflation.

      The narrative has always been that real median family income has stagnated, though. You hear about "middle-income stagnation", and you get people saying that the middle-class hasn't seen a real wage income increase since 1979, and other economists saying they've seen 41% growth in wage purchasing power. The fact of the matter is the ones claiming some kind of growth are more-correct than the ones claiming total stagnation.

      I have cell phone service with unlimited voice and text, plus 2GB of LTE data and unlimited throttled data per month. It costs $15/month. It's on t-mobile's network. In 1990, even minimum-wage households had landline phones at $30/month here. Most of the minimum-wagers are living ... pretty brutally; they have minimal new amenities compared to 20 years ago, yet they do have some. Again: we adjust minimum-wage based on inflation, not based on productivity growth--which is something else my new plan changes.

      So, the working-class does see wealth from productivity growth; the rich don't get all the newly-generated income; and the minimum wage is designed to provide nothing in terms of a share of productivity growth--that's not a rich-people-taking-everything trick, but a fact of the government having established it for a purpose of minimum living (Republicans will tell you it's not a living wage; they're wrong) instead of a fair wage.

      By the by: be careful reading about "wealth". The wealth of an economy is measured by its productivity; people like to measure wealth by accumulation of assets, then claim the rich have gotten massively-richer because they have things. I like to compare the income flow instead, notably with population considerations, e.g. by looking at CEO cash compensation versus the number of employees (payrolls are paid from revenues; stocks are just inflation of the currency of a company's stock, dumping newly-created shares into the executive's hands while slightly-reducing the number of dollars everyone else holding the stock can get). Oddly enough, highly-paid executives tend to have larger companies with more employees, and receive fewer dollars compensation per employee--just with enormous multipliers. The CEO of Ford, for example, receives about $22.50 per employee per year.

      To put this into perspective: an executive making 35x the minimum wage would get $647,500/year; an executive making $1M/year generally has 8,000-10,000 employees. An executive making $647,500/year today would have around 5,000 employees and receive $129.50/year per each, or 6.475 cents per employee per hour. Small business owners with few employees generally make thousands per employee.

      Kind of puts a damper on those salary cap arguments, huh? People focus too much on the rich, and not enough on the poor.

  14. cash register by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

    is a digital tool

    --
    This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
  15. Re:They took er jerbs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trump will appoint him to the SCROTUS

  16. build a wall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    build a wall! a technology wall! And let the digitals pay for it.

  17. Oxford comma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Let's eat, grandma"
    vs.
    "Let's eat grandma"

    1. Re:Oxford comma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's eat out GMILF.

    2. Re:Oxford comma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not an Oxford comma.

      The Oxford comma is used in lists before the 'and' (or 'or') and the final item. (That is, after the penultimate item.) So yes, the original needed an Oxford comma:

      "high-tech centers like Silicon Valley, Seattle, and Austin, Texas"

  18. Re:Every Nigga has a smart phone. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, have you seen the number of "Calle" signs in the Google's reCAPTCHA service? Now you know why. Learning English is not the issue here though, as people usually want to go cross the Channel to the UK, literally by any means necessary. Now, if only I too could afford to have a smart phone as well.. But I'm not bitter, I just expect them to conform to local customs, laws and principles of the society, and become productive members of the it. One way or the other. Unlike some other people.

  19. You're referring to new jobs by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    That get created as a result of automation and technological improvement. Yes, that happens, but the last time it did was after the industrial revolution. 80 years after it. It took that long for tech to catch up and employ the people put out of work. We had 80 years of social strife and rampant poverty in the meantime. They called it the guilded age. It lead to to world wars.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  20. state laws like you can't pump your gas = id check by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    state laws like you can't pump your gas in some. Will make this easy self check die for age controlled stuff that need id checkers. Also easy self check out = easy shoplifting.

    Micro Markets have shoplifting issues.

  21. serious question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where is the Apps Guy?

  22. Is this good or bad for the bottom 16%? by blindseer · · Score: 2

    I saw an interview with Dr. Jordan Peterson discussing the employment of people based on their intelligence and personality. Jordan Peterson is a Canadian clinical psychologist, university professor and researcher, and more recently a speaker on social norms because of his stance on some Canadian "hate speech" laws. I suspect many readers of Slashdot has heard of this man.

    The interview went into some detail on that there is a portion of the population that have been finding harder and harder to get a job. This 16% of the population have an IQ of 85 or lower. By definition we will always have 16% of the population below 85 because we define an IQ of 100 as average, but what an IQ means in intellectual capacity can shift in time as the average of the intelligence of the population shifts.

    The reason these people find getting, and keeping, a job difficult is that the jobs we have rely more and more on being able to handle complex information. People don't pick cotton by hand any more, for example. Even flipping burgers means being able to read orders, manage numbers, and interface with electronic timers and intercoms. Dr. Petersen related his experience with trying to get people with an IQ of 85 to manage living on their own. Just being able to manage a budget, pay bills, and so forth, can be a problem for such people. Will increasing automation make life easier for these people or more difficult in time?

    Shortly after seeing that interview I was listening to the radio where there was some group, a government office of some sort I recall, wanted to see more people get education beyond high school. They said that there was about 10% of the adult population of this city, state, or region (I'm not sure which) that did not have a high school education, or equivalent. I did a quick Google search and people with an IQ of 85 have a 50/50 chance of graduating high school. If there are 10% of the people that did not have the equivalent of a high school education then that seems to be doing pretty well, perhaps better than the statistics might lead. Or, alternatively, the graduation rate was marginally higher than statistics might lead because the high school education was sub-standard.

    Trying to get better than 90% of people with a certification or degree beyond high school may simply be an impossible task. Doing that would mean a shift in human genetics where an IQ of 85 is now intelligent enough to get a post-high school education, or lowering the standards of what these certifications mean. I'm pretty sure that lowering the standards of what a high school education entails is not where they want to go. If we hand out certifications for welding or forklift driving to people that cannot actually perform those tasks helps no one. Giving out certifications for being able to tie shoelaces helps no one either.

    Perhaps automation means this 16% of the population will be able to find work due to much of the thinking being removed from what they need to do. This will be interesting to see how this is resolved.

    --
    I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    1. Re:Is this good or bad for the bottom 16%? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's possible the technology will not automate those jobs out of existence, but merely regulate them.

      When the computer literally directs the work the people will become the machine.

    2. Re:Is this good or bad for the bottom 16%? by Jeremi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Perhaps automation means this 16% of the population will be able to find work due to much of the thinking being removed from what they need to do.

      Seems to me it would be just the opposite -- this 16% will be permanently unemployable, because any task they are capable of learning how to do, a robot is also capable of doing better, faster, and cheaper.

      And as automation/AI improves, the "minimum intelligence to be employable" threshold steadily rises; so that e.g. at some point (hopefully after I retire), only people with IQs of 140 or higher will be employable, and then shortly after that, no people will be employable at all :/

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  23. Easy Proof by JimSadler · · Score: 2

    Anyone that has had to do a lot of driving and address hunting knows how much waste and error occupy your days. Now a simple GPS system in a car makes a driver so much more efficient that it clearly would allow companies to lay off staff members. It is such a shock to see how well these systems can work in high density, urban environments.

  24. Re:state laws like you can't pump your gas = id ch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must live in either Oregon or New Jersey, the only two states that don't allow you do fuel your own vehicle, if you don't realize how rare that type of law is in the USA.

  25. Minimum wage destroys jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Raising the minimum wage destroys jobs; that is what.

    Potential employee: I am a low-skilled laborer who cannot find work.

    Potential employer: I am willing to pay you
    $X to do this work.

    Potential employee: I accept that deal.

    Government: No! You cannot take the deal. You must remain unemployed instead.

    1. Re:Minimum wage destroys jobs by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Not having a minimum wage is a subsidy to employers. Because maintaining yourself in a state able to work costs a minimum of dollars, so you can get food and shelter and medical care. If a full-time job doesn't pay enough to pay your rent, your food, your clothing and your medical insurance, the taxpayer will inevitably have to pay the difference. You get food stamps, subsidized housing, access to emergency rooms, access to the soup kitchen, whatever society provides. And because you might be inclined to illegally get what you can't get legally, the cost of policing will rise.

      Basicly your employer gets your labor power with a subsidy, because he hasn't to pay full for its upkeep. Everything else is burdened up to the taxpayer.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    2. Re:Minimum wage destroys jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      “When someone works for less pay than she can live on—when, for example, she goes hungry so that you can eat more cheaply and conveniently—then she has made a great sacrifice for you, she has made you a gift of some part of her abilities, her health, and her life. The ‘working poor,’ as they are approvingly termed, are in fact the major philanthropists of our society. They neglect their own children so that the children of others will be cared for; they live in substandard housing so that other homes will be shiny and perfect; they endure privation so that inflation will be low and stock prices high. To be a member of the working poor is to be an anonymous donor, a nameless benefactor, to everyone else.”
        – Barbara Ehrenreich, Nickel and Dimed

  26. Tell me about your business buddy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Care to tell us all about the business that you ran?
    I'm expecting you to be another joe the plumber passing off his fantasies of the future as facts today. Voting accordingly and urging the rest of us to do likewise.

    You temporary embarrassed millionaire who is just a few pesky regulations away from reclaiming his rightful place in the world. I've lived in low wage shithole cities as a highly skilled worker. Believe me the only people in the whole town who weren't getting the shaft were the fat cats who constantly promised me I was just a little hard work away from the big time.

    1. Re:Tell me about your business buddy? by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      I've worked as a manager for or subcontractor with a number of small businesses, including Danby Radio in Phila, PA, (moved to Ardmore), and a small private owned music shop in NJ. Not that it's any of your business. At most I made about $18k a year. But see, not being a little bitch about it, I saw why my wages were low, and how the owners worked day and night and had expenses out the wazoo to cover. It wasn't their fault, they were struggling. Eventually I found better paying employment.

      My what now? What are you even ranting about?

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    2. Re:Tell me about your business buddy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're not a small business owner I see. You're defending some sort of american dream that hasn't existed for anyone you've ever even met from the sound of things.

      All these poor businesses should have gone under. Everyone would have been happier, they are every bit the worthless peon you are, only with the illusion of freedom.
      It's not society's responsibility to worry about the welfare of shitty business people. As long as someone else was making honest money hand over fist with their business then failure absolutely was the fault of the guys running those struggling businesses.

      As for my comment "Joe the Plumber" became a sort of mascot for McCain's campaign to woo small business owners. It turns out joe the plumber wasn't a plumber and didn't own a small business. He just fantasized about doing it some day, any week now, by the end of the year.
        I notice that it is a common thing when I argue with people on the minimum wage or obamacare. "As a small business owner let me blah blah blah" but you check their facebook and their business is a money pit hobby or just a daydream they enjoy at their shit-teir burger flipping job. Often times they're really unemployed people who consider their never ending hustle, mow a lawn, walk a dog, trade on ebay, to be a business even though they don't have a business license and don't pay taxes anyhow.

  27. American Policy Favors Automation Over Labor by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

    American tax policy gives an advantage to automation over labor. An employer must pay payroll taxes, maintain unemployment insurance and workers' compensation, and might have to offer health insurance. Employees are also protected by very strict rules on overtime. Meanwhile, machines are not subject to any of these taxes, rules, and regulations.

    --
    A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
  28. We don't need 'jobs,' we need money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone is dancing around the real issue. We only need jobs because we need money.

    What if we didn't need money? Isn't that the real promise of automated labor?

    We have certain material needs that require energy and raw materials. There's so much waste in our society, most of those raw materials can be recycled from what we throw away, and it just takes energy to transform them.

    What if we had free energy?

    People are working on that now. Solar, wind, wave power, geothermal, even fusion. Someday energy may be so abundant as to be cost-free. But it won't work if a select few own all that power generation capacity and others are denied.