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Destiny 2 Misrepresented XP Gains To Its Players Until the Developers Got Caught (arstechnica.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Destiny 2, like its predecessor, depends largely on an open-ended "end game" system. Once you beat the game's primary "quest" content, you can return to previously covered ground to find remixed and upgraded battles, meant to be played ad nauseam alone or with friends. To encourage such replay, Bungie dangles a carrot of XP gain, which works more slowly than during the campaign stages. Players are awarded a "bright engram" every time they "level up" past the level cap; the engrams are essentially loot boxes that contain a random assortment of cosmetics and weapon mods. Everything you do in the game, from killing a weak bad guy to completing a major raid-related milestone, is supposed to reward you a fixed XP amount. As series fans gear up for the game's first expansion, slated to launch December 5 on PC, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One, its eagle-eyed fans at r/DestinyTheGame began questioning whether those rewards were really as fixed as claimed. Some players began to suspect that they were actually getting less XP than advertised each time they repeated certain in-game missions and tasks, such as the game's "Public Events."
With stopwatch in hand, a user named EnergiserX tracked the modes he played, keeping an eye on any shifts in XP gain over time. He put enough data together to confirm those suspicions: the XP gained in certain modes would shrink with each repetition. Worse, the game gave no indication of these diminishing returns. The XP-gain numbers that popped up above the game's XP bar didn't reflect the game's hidden scaling system. Thus, there was no way for a player to accurately calculate how their XP gain had been affected or scaled without going through EnergiserX's exhaustive process. With findings in hand, the tester posted on Reddit with calls to the developers for a response, which the community received on Saturday. Bungie confirmed its use of an "XP scaler" and added that it was "not performing the way we'd like it to," which meant the developer would remove that XP-scaling system upon the game's next patch. However, Bungie didn't clarify how the developers actually would have liked for this XP-scaling system to work, nor what factored into it announcing any changes beyond the system simply being discovered. Bungie issued a patch on Sunday that removed the XP-scaling systems, but it introduced another unannounced change to the XP system. "Bungie decided to tune the speed of XP gain by doubling the required XP needed to 'level up,' from 80,000 points to 160,000," reports Ars Technica. "Patch notes didn't mention this change; Bungie, once again, had to be questioned by its fanbase before confirming the exact amount of this XP-related change."
With stopwatch in hand, a user named EnergiserX tracked the modes he played, keeping an eye on any shifts in XP gain over time. He put enough data together to confirm those suspicions: the XP gained in certain modes would shrink with each repetition. Worse, the game gave no indication of these diminishing returns. The XP-gain numbers that popped up above the game's XP bar didn't reflect the game's hidden scaling system. Thus, there was no way for a player to accurately calculate how their XP gain had been affected or scaled without going through EnergiserX's exhaustive process. With findings in hand, the tester posted on Reddit with calls to the developers for a response, which the community received on Saturday. Bungie confirmed its use of an "XP scaler" and added that it was "not performing the way we'd like it to," which meant the developer would remove that XP-scaling system upon the game's next patch. However, Bungie didn't clarify how the developers actually would have liked for this XP-scaling system to work, nor what factored into it announcing any changes beyond the system simply being discovered. Bungie issued a patch on Sunday that removed the XP-scaling systems, but it introduced another unannounced change to the XP system. "Bungie decided to tune the speed of XP gain by doubling the required XP needed to 'level up,' from 80,000 points to 160,000," reports Ars Technica. "Patch notes didn't mention this change; Bungie, once again, had to be questioned by its fanbase before confirming the exact amount of this XP-related change."
We never had this problem with Manic Miner.
Sorry for lying to your customers?
That said; it isn't like other MMOs don't have the diminishing returns system in place as well, wonder why they intentionally hid it?
We knew this months ago just after the game came out.
I mean, I come here for Linux and technical stuff with the occasional society tech write up...
I don't read AC
This kind of system is common, usually meant to break up the grind - keep players doing different things, playing with other people, etc., instead of just running the same mission over and over again for maximum efficiency.
This works best, of course, if you actually tell people that's what's going on. So that part's kinda funny, but this doesn't seem like a big deal.
I thought the point of having a game was to play it. Now you're bitching because you have to play it more than you thought. There's no pleasing anyone these days...
That is all.
It's amazing how people will pay for the privilege of running on a meaningless treadmill, and also pay for the privilege of not running on the meaningless treadmill, seemingly unaware that they don't have to run on the meaningless treadmill in the first place.
yields progressively less experience for each repetition. Shocker. Anyone who didn't realize that lives in a fantasy world.
Did the company advertise that players would get the same amount of XP?
Next you will be telling me that dealers routinely short junkies when selling drugs.
Who the hell cares what game of the week is screwing customers. You guys will be first in line for the next pre order to get fucked all over again.
EverQuest, hell levels.
Fuck you, Sarnaks.
Yes, yes you do. But you did it once, and you can do it again!
Destiny 2 was released Sept 6. They are releasing an expansion on Dec 6. 3 months after the game first released (and only 2 months since it came out on PC). I actually considered buying it this weekend on sale until I saw it already had expansions coming out because I knew it had just been released. Don't charge full price for a game and then charge half that again for an expansion a few months later. I'll stick to a reasonably priced and fun game like RS2:Vietnam that came out in May and is getting a free expansion this week.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Who cares about Bright Engrams. Seriously.
How about the lack of a chat system with your Clan or just the general populace ? Lack of a match-making system, even just a manual one, to create Fireteams for Trial of the Nine, the Leviathan raid or even just Nightfall Strikes. Heck, there's a Exotic weapon quest, that you get at the end of a solo campaign quest, that requires doing Patrols, a solo activity, in a Fireteam. How about a Group Finder tool ?
But yeah, please keep talking about XP, which is barely visible in game (not like you can even tell how much you need) and only rewards Shaders and other cosmetics and doesn't affect gameplay at all.
I'm going back to World of Warcraft. (I kid of course, I never left World of Warcraft to begin with -_-).
"Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
Its been interesting, the game has its roots in Halo, it was a great franchise. Rather well balanced game play. Go online with a team or alone, it would pair you up and you play. People played for the same reason they played soccer or basketball (minus the health benefits of said games).
Then came destiny, what they did was create weapons and armor with random mods, as these artifacts dropped, you had a chance to get a god role, same weapon as other but say with extra stability and head seeker (slight beter aim assist to head). all of a sudden you were god in PvP. This is why people ran the treadmill. Naturally the community complained and complained as not every one could get a god roll on weapons and artifacts. Then there were exotics, e.g. rocket launchers with tracking and proximity, you wanted that.
Secondly, the sweats complain there isn't much content at the same time they had god rolls and were unstoppable meanwhile the regular dad with two kids complained its impossible to get god rolls and be useful in PvP (or PvE for that matter). So its been a complicated balancing strategy for Bungie.
Not only that over the last 3-4 years, a game that had its origins in PvP evolved deep into a PvE + PvP game due to the community feedback. Come Destiny 2... those random mods are gone as Bungie realised those god rolls are a problem. Now you don't have rocket launchers with tracking and proximity, you don't have guns that generate ammo out of thin year (even though those two were probably the most liked weapons on Destiny 1). The game as you describe has become a meaningless treadmill. Made my life simpler as I only have one day job now. I prefer PvP only, I have the weapons/armor that work since there are no more random mods. I play a few games and log off.
If I wanted to read shrill gamer news, I'd read Ars Technica.
It's too soon for those jokes. Some of us are still traumatized by Windows XP. I still can't see a nice lawn with lawn-mower tracks without shivering.
there was no way for a player to accurately calculate how their XP gain had been affected or scaled without going through EnergiserX's exhaustive process.
Really? There's no other way? What about checking the accumulated XP bar prior to earning XP, earning some XP and recording what the on-screen number says you earned, and then check what the accumulated bar says you now have. Hardly an "exhaustive process" by any means.
Or does Destiny really not have something that has been standard for literally decades?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Remember when you said marrying underage mexican girls was about getting the most bang for your buck?
Then remember when she said no no no!! She's 16!!! Come on guys! 16 year olds marrying retired old men is fine.
Remember when you said child brides were as american as apple pie?
Here is creimer's defense of his previous pedo statements
http://archive.is/Bfzo1
Creimer writes:
As for the “sweet young thing,” she is just an afterthought. A poor young woman marrying a rich old man is the stuff of telenovelas.
I love this blog post. Hey this fat old man only moved to mexico for a cheap house. But while you're there 16 year old girls bro!! Seems legit. Of course it's legit!!! It's a popular theme in daytime television shows.
In every RPG. Ever Made. In the history of RPGs. Ever. Like. I mean infinity. Yeah. You get it. It has taken longer and longer to level up from level to level.
So this happened after reaching the level cap in Destiny. And everyone turns it into a witch hunt.
A lot of players look for reasons to bash devs and game companies. And if you defend them, you're a shill of the company being paid tons of money to pay lipservice to the game.
Whether it's actually true or not doesn't matter because! Dammit if you defend them you're a Bungie Shill. Coz don't you know all it takes is for one accusation to come to make it true?
'Nuff said.
"With stopwatch in hand, a user named EnergiserX tracked the modes he played, keeping an eye on any shifts in XP gain over time."
The important thing is EnergiserX is not a total waste of flesh. Oh no, his life matters now!
Including video games that used to be about just having fun. Now if you don't dangle a carrot in front of them they won't even play something that is for their own enjoyment.
... that don't respect your:
* time
* space
* money
He thinks it's ok for 50 year old men to marry 16 year old girls as long as they're poor. He thinks it's every mexican girl's dream to marry a fat american engineer.
He calls them "underage sweet things"
Just some fyi and heads up and a big fuck you to all the wankers who defended him.
You can have your fixed XP gains, on an internal integer field. But your displayed XP will be the internal value, squared, modulo by the value of RSA-2048, modulo current level cap+1 ( (xp^2%K)%(cap+1) ). Your character level will automatically adjust to match the displayed XP. As will all stats and restrictions which scale based on level. If you are nice and don't get caught complaining about us publicly (or having your semi-anonymous posts from unrelated services strongly correlated with statements in chat from your account), we'll also let you declare a spec and gear set for each level, and you'll automatically switch to the appropriate one every time you level up or down.
We will also add a publicly visible "Average level" stat to your character, so you can show for all just how effective you really are at maintaining virtual supremacy!
I've made a copy here so you can see .
http://archive.is/Bfzo1
I've made a copy here so you can see
http://archive.is/Bfzo1
Look at how hard he tries to justify the marriage of a 16 year old mexican girl to a 50 year old american. He explains over and over that we're overreacting and that he's not a pedo. But all he does is reveal that he's probably a bigger pedo than we thought and he doesn't even think there is anything wrong with it.
Go awaty creimer
Comment removed based on user account deletion
There was no "misrepresentation". Misrepresentation would imply that some oversight caused the reduction in EXP and that this was not intended.
This was a deceptive and deliberate mechanic that was absolutely intended specifically to make more money for Bungie. I.e. It was implemented specifically to drive sales of their in-game micro-transaction "loot box" product: Bright Engrams.
This is "news"? XP gains in video games was buggy? Is this the Onion?
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
From reading all these comments I think people are misunderstanding why a good chunk of the community are generally angry about this. It's not necessarily about the diminishing returns and such, it's mainly because 1) How bungie reacted to this. 2) How bungie ended up "fixing" it. 3) How they did the same thing again that got the community angry in the first place. Bungie for years has promised transparency, after this popped up there was a slight discrepancy upon the exp you gained on screen and the actual amount of exp you gained after gaining exp "too quickly" at high levels the point of the exp bar is to gain what's called a Bright Engram basically an rng lootbox which can also be purchased with money, although earned through the exp system. I personally can understand bungie trying to limit the amount of bright engrams we can acquire, however I think Bungie doesn't understand their community at all. The hardcore destiny players love this game, for many years they just wanted transparency with the developer they loved and the transparency they promised. Keep in mind the people upset about this isn't because of a diminishing returns system but more so bungie being unable to communicate at all, this being worsened by them doing another unmentioned thing in the new patch, which is doubling the exp bar, at this point bungie saying that it is meant to 160,000 and the sites tracking are wrong but when the tests come into play, it's definitely 80,000. This community isn't kids bungie stop trying to slide these minor things off and post the proper truth already, stop trying to soften the blows and just give it to us straight. The amount of communication is severely lacking for an MMORPG and more on par with a shooter which they officially do a post to answer the community each week. Destiny 2 is both a shooter and MMORPG but the community is more like that of a MMORPG, very active and talkative. The amount of communication from these developers are just vexing and disappointing.
TL:DR, From reading these comments people have been misunderstanding the intent/anger of the destiny community, Bungie (The game developer for destiny 2) has promised transparency for years. This fiaso has escalated due to bungie reacting this way and doing another thing which was to hide another unmentioned patch from their fanbase.The community is angered by the shady stuff right now, the diminishing returns system would've been understood if bungie would finally talk to their community constantly instead of a once a week blog post, just like many common shooters do with their community.