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Shouting 'Pay Your Taxes', Activists Occupy Apple Stores in France (marketwatch.com)
An anonymous reader quotes MarketWatch:
A group of global activists stormed and occupied several Apple Stores in France on Saturday in a move aimed at pressuring the company to pay up on a €13 billion ($15.5 billion) tax bill to the European Union. In a press release, the France unit of the Association for the Taxation of Financial Transactions and Citizen's Action organization (Attac), said 100 of its members occupied the Opera Apple Store in Paris, demanding the company pay its taxes... Attac said dozens of protests were organized at other Apple store locations throughout France on Saturday. In the Paris store, activists were seen via videos circulating on Twitter, pushing past security and hanging a banner that said "We will stop when Apple pays." Security in Paris reportedly evacuated Apple workers from the building as those protests began.
After three hours they left the store -- leaving behind protest messages on the iPads on display. The group claims that Apple has stashed $230 billion in tax havens around the world, but also hopes to raise awareness about other issues.
"Attac said the action was part of the #PhoneRevolt movement aimed at highlighting unfair practices by Apple, that are not just about taxes, but also pollution via extraction of metals for its phones, worker exploitation and driving a global consumption binge."
After three hours they left the store -- leaving behind protest messages on the iPads on display. The group claims that Apple has stashed $230 billion in tax havens around the world, but also hopes to raise awareness about other issues.
"Attac said the action was part of the #PhoneRevolt movement aimed at highlighting unfair practices by Apple, that are not just about taxes, but also pollution via extraction of metals for its phones, worker exploitation and driving a global consumption binge."
Are worse than Hitler.
So, International assholes?
Activist:
1. someone who's always pissed about something they don't understand and of which they are largely ignorant.
2. someone prone to believing inflammatory rhetoric without question.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Apple is the only phone company I know of to even both to produce something like environmental reports.
This includes things like the mildly nauseating fact that Apple makes their own artificial sweat to test watches.
And what do they get for it? Protestors flooding stores. Where are the protests at the local stores selling other phones, which engage in the same tax practices and far worse environmental hijinks? Crickets.
I'm sure it's because they can get more attention if they flood an Apple store instead of the local T-Mobile phone hut. But even so, it's just sad to see such a brazen display of showmanship over real care for the environment or taxes. Maybe Apple should just stop paying attention to any of that stuff and make phones the way the rest of the market does without all of the expense of trying to do so in a responsible way.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Giant corporations don't pay taxes, they evade them. Then they hoard more money by using $2/hr Chinese labor which is illegal anywhere else but okay since it is across a line on a map and in China. Then they buy out their competition and use frivolous IP lawsuits to limit new competition. There, now you know everything you need to know in order to become a member of the Corporatist movement and control your elected official using money.
Using force is the only language that corporates understand. After all, by definition, greed is their only purpose.
Avantgarde Hebrew science fiction
Protestors produced nothing of any value to anyone, instead demanding productive people — people who create value for customers, employees, shareholders, and their communities — pay more.
Why should producers listen to demanders when demanders offer nothing of any value to anyone? Are remorseless demands fair? How is demanding things while offering nothing good for a society?
... went to the nearby Starbucks to Twitter about their "action", and posting their selfies on Instagram and Facebook using their iPhones.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
The employees there do pay their taxes... So shouting at them to pay their taxes ain't gonna work.
You can't make the "entity" that is Apple to pay their taxes, when the ones who call the shots aren't even there.
Seems like they are awake. Taxes are what holds up and maintains infrastructure, health, food and shelter for the poor.
Go after your poiticians. They're the ones who enable this shit.
Apple has done nothing wrong. They are jsut taking advantage of existing law.
Greenpeace has done many poorly thought out (IMO) attacks on apple. When pressed they admit that apple does better than quite a few global players but pulling the stunts on them don't get any press coverage. So they attack apple.
Same old, same old. Different players, using taxes as their pivot then mumble waving about the environment.
It's all about press.
A better shout.
Then EU should seize Apple assets, and they are completely justified to do that.
Pop over and say the same to Trump
Since Apple's corporate headquarters is in the U.S., we get the money first.
Why would you get the money? Apple isn't the subject of a US court battle about the US not collecting taxes from Apple properly. Apple pays as much taxes in the USA as is required by law, unlike in the EU where it was found their tax agreement with Ireland was illegal.
EU countries impose massive tax burdens relative to the rest of the world
No kidding; For example, DSLRs can only make 29 minute, 59 second video clips because a camera that can take >= 30 minute clips is a "movie camera" under EU laws and triggers a much higher tax. So our Canons and Nikons in the US and the rest of the world have that limit too.
DSLRs can only make 29 minute, 59 second video clips because a camera that can take >= 30 minute clips is a "movie camera" under EU laws and triggers a much higher tax. So our Canons and Nikons in the US and the rest of the world have that limit too.
It's trivial to issue different firmwares for different regions, companies do this all the time. I imagine, though, that there are unofficial patches to remove that limit from at least some cameras.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Yeah. Because hex editing that firmware byte code to #FFFF:F0FF and updating is so hard.
If your argument is equally applicable to legitimizing slavery as it is tax evasion, you might want to rethink your position.
Maybe it's because Apple doesn't pay any taxes in the EU, and instead pays a pitiful tax rate in Ireland?
Ireland is in the E.U.
Completely arbitrary.
This is what post-net-neutrality world is going to look like - arbitrary cost structures on top of existing TCP sessions. Once the government figures that out they apply arbitrary tax structures on top of the arbitrary cost structures. Now you'll need to fill out a page on your taxes detailing all the URLs you followed for the fiscal year.
This is coming soon. Count on it.
They should seize all iPhones and install Android :D
Requiem for the American Dream
Well, the US is about to ruin the internet for everyone and then there's the whole continuous wars thing. Maybe EU taxes aren't so bad by comparison.
Requiem for the American Dream
Why should the user suffer the agony of being forced to used a completely insecure OS ?
Apple's headquarters are in the US but it also has branches in the EU, and these branches depend on the laws of the country they are in.
So when Apple Ireland makes a sale in the EU, it has to pay taxes to Ireland, like any Irish company. And Apple France has to pay taxes in France. That the headquarters are in the US doesn't matter. And it's a good thing, otherwise, the headquarters would have been quickly relocated to a tax heaven.
isn't Apple hoarding in offshore accounts?
why are the french so impossibly stupid.
These are useful idiots which propagate and support the very system which is anally raping them. Hypocrites!
They dont want jobs. They are socialists, they want handouts. Jobs are considered "slavery". See comment below.
Do they still funnel dough through Ireland? It's up to the French government and the EU to close any loopholes.
It seems not unreasonable to me for Apple's retail arm in France to be registered as a French business. If they rent buildings in Paris and other cities, employ local workers and collect French sales tax then they should pay the same proportion of tax as Gerard's Boutique d'Ordinateurs (pardon mon franÃais!) on the corner.
Is this not happening? A relative here in Australia was surprised when an Apple product purchased locally in a shop put Singapore on the bill.
While the USA enforces global taxation on natural and non-natural citizens, the non-natural citizens have found a loophole: Keeping their money out of US territory and in territories (Cayman Islands, Keeling Islands) that have no corporation taxes. The USA can enforce global conformity on international banking (even Switzerland complies) but not on its own own taxation laws. The "Kansas experiment" could easily cancel corporate taxation but not corporate loopholes: Meaning corporations in the state were, in effect, 'paid' to not pay taxes.
Watch the show 'Planet America' (made in Australia) to see how fucked-up US tax laws are.
"Appleâ(TM)s Irish tax arrangements have allowed it to pay tax at a rate of 3.8 percent on $200 billion of overseas profits"
From this article.
So that is 7.6 *billion* dollars in taxes that Apple has paid to the EU in taxes.
Not to mention, that for every expensive Apple device sells, the EU is of course collecting a tax of taxes (VAT) atop that as well. All just because Apple has physically located a store there. The taxes collected alone on sales must be many more billions.
Again, just for Apple having a store located in that country or city.
Do you seriously think the tiny impact of Apple having a store in those countries is not more than offset by the taxes already paid? Apple has paid for roads, security, and far more out of the very large amount of money Apple has collected and paid in taxes.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
because they're EU. duh.
So all technology and information comes from the USA. I didn't know that. Thanks for the information.
You do realize that your lord and savior Obama was very happy without net neutrality, that regulation has never been applied, and that nothing has changed, right?
Parts of the EU did not get far beyond Minitel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... .
The modern Internet then offered technology and information to many parts of the EU.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I may be wrong, but as I understand it, in economics, businesses do not pay tax. When they are taxed, what happens is that the price of their services and good rises. It is the *consumer* of the services or goods who pays the tax. That is usually you and me.
Really, we pay income tax, and we pay corporation. We also of course pay sales tax.
Roughly speaking, I think in the West, about 75% of the wealth we produce each month is taken from us in the form of tax.
AC, A company has to pay some tax in most normal nations.
If a country has set a low tax rate to attract jobs and investment then that is the tax rate that has to be paid.
The private sector has to pay a tax rate set a gov.
The private sector still has the freedom just move its jobs to areas better suited to support capitalism.
Why not put some effort into creating good private sector jobs?
Allowing more people to study for jobs that pay well?
When the private sector invests, show some support that company and then attract more private sector investors to the area?
Instead of all that effort focused on one company why not try and attract 10 other companies to the area?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Actually, EU corporate taxes are generally lower than US corporate taxes. That's why US corporations keep their money overseas.
European tax systems tend to me more fair: the European middle class, which receives most of the benefits from taxation, pays considerably higher taxes than the US middle class; that is, they pay what they use and balance their budgets.
The US middle class still deludes itself into believing that they can continue to get free stuff by taxing the wealthy and running up a massive debt.
If by "post net neutrality world" you mean a world post introduction of "net neutrality", then you're right: after all, the FCC taking control of the Internet is the first step towards imposing more arbitrary rules and taxes.
The EU already said there is no loophole, Ireland simply made false promises to Apple.
Loopholes don't spring into existence just because your lawyer waved his hands and said words; if it was a dubious theory that was never tested in court, you had no reason to believe it was actually a loophole!
VAT is not a "tax of taxes." That is just silliness.
And anyways, who cares? "Your honor, I did steal that money, but last week I gave a smaller amount of money to a charity. That makes it OK." "*Bang!*Bang* Maximum sentence!"
Stop spreading lies.
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/30/how-apples-irish-subsidiaries-paid-a-0005-percent-tax-rate-in-2014.html
The only reason i can see for you to be spreading such blatant lies is you are paid by apple to do so. Its not working.
Yeah. Because asymmetric crypto and checksums aren't a thing, and all devices always blindly accept whatever firmware you flash to them.
I appreciate the efforts taken. But protesting against a company that behaves immorally is the epitome of silliness.
Companies aren't obliged to have a moral; They merely need to obey the law. They must explore every way of making money and optimizing costs. Their competitors will do likewise.
Go after politicians that created opportunities for companies to optimize their taxes to an absurd level. Hell you can even use your actual influence and vote to try and accomplish your goal and make tax laws more fair.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
Well, I believe this concept to be outdated. A bit like the "intellectual Property transfer rights". Nowadays, the paptent holder for IP rights dwelves in tiny european countries. The countries made a business model out of stealing fiscal product of their neighbor. Nobody complains, because everybody uses them. Hell the president of the european commission was the "tax evader in chief" as head stateman of Luxembourg for the better part of his career. Honestly, It would be much simpler to tax the benefits of the company based on their profit, country by country. After all, what is the meaning of the location of the headquarter of a multinational in our connected world ? Nowadays, Apple transfered its headquarter in a tiny british Island known for its very low corporate tax (zero). https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1... Oudated context.
---
By the way I apologies my dear US friend, I'm French...
Undoing mod.... I am french too , and the reason people do not protest that much about total, is that apple is far more in the news, and news about total tax far less you have to dig and keep yourself informed (*). Otherwise those hippie activist (yes I know some of them, and they are the 2017 hippies)= would protest a dirty , co2 making , petrol station than apple. But they are as a group (at least those I speak to) utterly uninformed (*). It isn't about foreign company AT ALL. If you knew anything about those activist you would know that. As for the mod, at best this parent would be "interesting" as an opinion or "informative" if you stretch it but nowhere near insightful.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Obviously it is not, as anyone with a minimum of rational thinking would see, but of course we cannot allow reason to stand in the way of your knee-jerk childish arguments.
If it all came from the EU, we would not be having any discussion. Obviously the Europeans like to talk big about the superiority of their "culture" and "civilization" but then they do not deliver. You know, like that obnoxious pedantic know-it-all kid in class who liked to correct everybody - including teachers - like he was the next Einstein or so, and then you find him pumping gas or selling TV sets at Walmart.
Poor Tim Cook.
He thought he was being clever using his CEO bully pulpit to fundraiser for the SPLC and other Marxist groups. Now he is being cannibalized by European commies.
Hey, Tim: time to become a libertarian. The left is not your friend.
So that is 7.6 *billion* dollars in taxes that Apple has paid to the EU in taxes.
So your argument is that Apple should pay a lower tax rate because the make a lot of money?
Out of interest, which political wing do you identify with?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Actually several french companies have tried over the years, but have all confronted the same major obstacle: they are obliged to pay taxes in France.
EU countries impose massive tax burdens relative to the rest of the world. Excessive taxation, especially for how EU countries spend the money, is unjust. Refusing to pay unfair and excessive taxes is a moral position. Apple should continue to not pay the taxes, and they are completely justified in that position.
We get a good universal healthcare system, good welfare state, good education system and decent infrastructure for our money. You may think we're taxed to death but the tax burden per capita in the UK for the NHS is the same as the tax burden per capita of Medicare/Medicaid is for the US yet we get a healthcare system where it is free to use for all. We also get things provided for free that are an additional cost in the USA. We don't pay a separate charge through our local taxes for the fire department for example.
I'd rather keep paying the taxes and have what we have than not do and end up living in a first world country where highway bridges are collapsing and people go bankrupt because they get ill.
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
"AppleÃ(TM)s Irish tax arrangements have allowed it to pay tax at a rate of 3.8 percent on $200 billion of overseas profits"
From this article.
So that is 7.6 *billion* dollars in taxes that Apple has paid to the EU in taxes.
Or to put it another way, it's at least 50 *billion* that Apple dodged paying to the EU in taxes.
The corporation tax rate in France is 33%. It varies around Europe but 25-30% is typical.
Again, just for Apple having a store located in that country or city.
No. It includes everything they sell on iTunes to French citizens. It includes all the paid services they offer to French customers like repairs, battery replacements and cloud storage. It includes all the business services they offer in France like Siri integration. This stuff is so significant that Apple set up a French subsidiary to manage it all, and also to dodge paying tax on it.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
That isn't how taxes work.
Hang on, what are you saying?
Why should the overall tax rate for my company be 10 times higher than it it for Apple?
Are you saying this is fair?
And thanks for mentioning VAT - that's tax that the consumer pays, not the business. So, no only to I pay a higher tax rate, I also get to pay extra tax as a consumer that Apple doesn't pay.
Well, at least I'm paying to have a civilized country.
"The best part? I became an ordained minister while not wearing pants." -- CleverNickName
So that is 7.6 *billion* dollars in taxes that Apple has paid to the EU in taxes.
To Ireland, not to the EU. The EU doesn't levy any taxes. More importantly, the 7.6 billion dollars is only a small part of what they really had to pay and what every other company would have paid under the same circumstances.
Not to mention, that for every expensive Apple device sells, the EU is of course collecting a tax of taxes (VAT) atop that as well. All just because Apple has physically located a store there. The taxes collected alone on sales must be many more billions.
The EU doesn't collect VAT. VAT is a national tax.
Again, just for Apple having a store located in that country or city.
No, it's for selling products. VAT is levied on sales.
Do you seriously think the tiny impact of Apple having a store in those countries is not more than offset by the taxes already paid? Apple has paid for roads, security, and far more out of the very large amount of money Apple has collected and paid in taxes.
The issue is not whether what Apple pays is or is not sufficient to cover for the costs of having Apple's business. The problem is that Apple is not paying it's fair share because they are breaking the law, thus putting competitors who don't break the law at a disadvantage.
NO. All the money in EU is evaded to Ireland where Apple pays (almost) no taxes at all because of some illegal agreement between Apple and Ireland. Protesters don't ask Apple to pay their taxes in France they ask Aple to pay the real deal to Ireland
...is evaded
Correct sequence:
A) Learn the language.
B) Post in said language.
Hint: you've got the sequence backwards...
Apple employs EU people. They pay for EU goods. They even pay for EU services. And you want to bleed them even more?
There is a simple solution to the problem. Demonetize the assets of those corporations who evade taxes. India gave us a poor example, but we have the means to track cash by serial number. Why not apply it to this problem.
Literally payback. Apple has cherrypicked tax localities and laws to the point of absurdity.
Organization? You must be joking..
Easy: virtue signaling.
we're really screwed if the youth is so brainwashed they think paying taxes is a good thing.
Apple is not breaking the law though. Tax avoidance (as opposed to tax evasion) is perfectly legal. And tax avoidance (structuring your finances so that the tax you're legitimately obligated to pay), is something that everyone, everywhere, does. Apple has merely done it better than you or I could each April.
The only example where it's actually been established that laws have been broken, with regard to taxation, has been the case recently where the EU ruled that Ireland set it's tax rate too low, giving Apple a larger incentive to locate there than what they were allowed under EU rules; for which the EU is trying to punish Apple, instead of Ireland. That is, of course, being appealed. And all that proves tho is that the US has no monopoly on xenophobia and jingoism.
Imagine all the people...
To Ireland, not to the EU.
Is Ireland in the EU? Why yes, yes it is.
The EU doesn't collect VAT. VAT is a national tax.
The EU provides no services to Apple stores. Nations do. So why does the EU need the taxes again?
Also do you seriously not think that part of the VAT collected flows back to the EU from every nation. If not, where does EU funding come from?
VAT is levied on sales. .. from physical stores.
The issue is not whether what Apple pays
Actually that is EXACTLY what I was responding to, an assertion that Apple pays "no taxes" in the EU which is a blatant lie. Some think they pay too little, but that is a wholly different discussion.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Why should the overall tax rate for my company be 10 times higher than it it for Apple?
I totally agree. You should be paying the same rate as Apple. And you could be if you used the same technique.
Apple may be paying a low rate but even at that low rate they pay a HUGE sum of money in taxes. Just because you are taxed WAY too much does not mean Apple is in the wrong, the EU benefits greatly from the taxes collected on sales of Apple products.
And thanks for mentioning VAT - that's tax that the consumer pays, not the business.
But it's money that would not be collected if Apple was not selling products there. If Apple stopped selling products across the EU tomorrow would there be a vast shortfall in VAT revenue or not?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
So your argument is that Apple should pay a lower tax rate
Nope.
The original post I responded to said Apple paid "No Taxes" in the EU. Is 7.6 billion dollars greater than, or equal to zero?
Out of interest, which political wing do you identify with?
I belong to the "Correcting Blatant Lies With Facts" party. I know we are greatly in disfavor in these days Where the "Angry Factless Slander" party is greatly on the uptick, but you really should consider joining us instead as it's much better for your health. Especially your mental health. Our motto is "We Drink and We Know Things".
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Why would you get the money?
We have the most guns and are the only reason why Russia isn't taking back eastern Europe. Tough titties.
The only example where it's actually been established that laws have been broken, with regard to taxation, has been the case recently where the EU ruled that Ireland set it's tax rate too low, giving Apple a larger incentive to locate there than what they were allowed under EU rules; for which the EU is trying to punish Apple, instead of Ireland. That is, of course, being appealed.
Not really. The EC ruled that Ireland gave Apple a special treatment, which is not allowed. They are not punishing anyone for that; they are merely insisting that Ireland make Apple pay the taxes it should have paid in the first place.
Apple Ireland is owned by Apple some.other-tax-haven-in-Europe. Manx, I think.
Is Ireland in the EU? Why yes, yes it is.
It's in the UN too. Does that mean that Apple pays VAT to the UN?
The EU provides no services to Apple stores. Nations do. So why does the EU need the taxes again?
It doesn't. You are the one claiming that it did.
Also do you seriously not think that part of the VAT collected flows back to the EU from every nation. If not, where does EU funding come from?
From the general budget of the member states. It is not connected to any specific tax.
VAT is levied on sales. .. from physical stores.
... and online shops. It's not in any way connected to physical buildings. Only to sales.
Actually that is EXACTLY what I was responding to, an assertion that Apple pays "no taxes" in the EU which is a blatant lie.
That may very well be, but that is not the issue here of course. The issue is that Apple is cheating by breaking the law.
A government can make the laws in their own country, of course.
However, if a country enters a trade agreement, and the EU is for most part a trade agreement, it should play by the rules it if it wants to continue trading.
It's in the UN too. Does that mean that Apple pays VAT to the UN?
Apple doesn't "pay" VAT to anyone, they collect it on behalf of a local government.
It doesn't. You are the one claiming that it did.
Claiming what? That the EU provides services? I made no such claim.
From the general budget of the member states. It is not DISCONNETED FROM any specific tax.
Corrected that for you. Unless you seriously want to assert no VAT money goes to fund the EU, ever. Come on, I know you can do it! I dare you. ... and online shops. It's not in any way DISCONNECTED FROM physical buildings. Only to sales.
You seem to have a real problem with writing these things correctly.
I never said it didn't apply to online sales also. But that was merely one aspect of my point where I was tying things back to all the people that claimed Apple used physical resources of countries and that's why they need to pay more tax. The more sales are online, the fewer resources of the nation Apple is in fact using and the less it makes sense for them to pay. If we are all trying to actually be fair and not just loser Apple Haters out for a joyride.
So thanks for bringing that up, because Apple's high online sales rate more than validates why they should be paying less in taxes than other companies in the EU, which is still a number much greater than zero by may billions of dollars.
That may very well be, but that is not the issue here of course.
In fact the ONLY ISSUE I was writing about was Apple paying any taxes at all, not zero - all other material was just bonus to refute points and arguments based around that. You chose to re-direct it badly, but utterly fucked up your arguments which fall apart like a house made of 20 year old plastic wicker baskets you let sit out in the sun.
I'll let you have the last response now that you have been TAKEN TO THE WOODSHED OF ULTIMATE TRUTH and REALITY.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Ah yes, more turds bitching they can't steal the fruits of someone elses labor. Color me surprised.
because taxation is theft...
Mastering A & B is easy. Difficulty starts with C) Learn a foreign language I guess you didn't try.