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State Board Concedes It Violated Free Speech Rights of Oregon Man Fined For Writing 'I Am An Engineer' (oregonlive.com)
According to Oregon Live, "A state panel violated a Beaverton man's free speech rights by claiming he had unlawfully used the title 'engineer' and by fining him when he repeatedly challenged Oregon's traffic-signal timing before local media and policymakers, Oregon's attorney general has ruled." From the report: Oregon's Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying unconstitutionally applied state law governing engineering practice to Mats Jarlstrom when he exercised his free speech about traffic lights and described himself as an engineer since he was doing so "in a noncommercial'' setting and not soliciting professional business, the state Department of Justice has conceded. "We have admitted to violating Mr. Jarlstrom's rights,'' said Christina L. Beatty-Walters, senior assistant attorney general, in federal court Monday. The state's regulation of Jarlstrom under engineering practice law "was not narrowly tailored to any compelling state interests,'' she wrote in court papers. The state has pledged the board will not pursue the Beaverton man any further when he's not acting in a commercial or professional manner, and on Monday urged a federal judge to dismiss the case. The state also sent a $500 check to Jarlstrom in August, reimbursing him for the state fine.
Jarlstrom and his lawyers argued that's not good enough. They contend Jarlstrom isn't alone in getting snared by the state board's aggressive and "overbroad'' interpretation of state law. They contend others have been investigated improperly and want the court to look broader at the state law and its administrative rules and declare them unconstitutional. In the alternative, the state law should be restricted to only regulating engineering communications that are made as part of paid employment or a contractual agreement.
Jarlstrom and his lawyers argued that's not good enough. They contend Jarlstrom isn't alone in getting snared by the state board's aggressive and "overbroad'' interpretation of state law. They contend others have been investigated improperly and want the court to look broader at the state law and its administrative rules and declare them unconstitutional. In the alternative, the state law should be restricted to only regulating engineering communications that are made as part of paid employment or a contractual agreement.
It's awesome.
You are way off topic but even your own quote says no change in the RATE of warming which according to that quote is 0.096 ... LOL you don't even know what propaganda you are pushing
You should look up acceleration in the dictionary.
A car coming towards you at 20 MPH need not accelerate to squash you.
Ok, so who's getting fired?
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Why did they go to such lengths over traffic lights? This seems to have been a rather sore spot for them.
The man was an engineer simply not registered in that state and was not attempting to drum up business but rather had given them a formula to replace the mathematical formula first developed in 1959 which only allowed for either stop or ticket when the yellow light was lit up treating it like a red light.
I would take a guess (which is worth nothing) that they knew about this issue probably for decades and continued with the flawed scenario doing a calculation of cost of fixing the problem vs cost of being sued for the problem (sort of like the fight club car recall formula). /*For those interested in the fight club car recall formula*/
Narrator: A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Maybe this guy won his case, but it's pretty damn clear now that he is not an engineer.
Doh, okay, it's abundantly clear I didn't read the article. He is in fact an (electrical) engineer, just not one who is licensed to practice in the state of Oregon. Sorry.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
To all those on Slashdot who defended the Oregon Board of Examiners (and there were a few of you that did), this would be a very good time for you to sit down and have this here warm cup of STFU.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Can anyone provide an argument for why or why not this man is or is not an engineer? This is crucial to understanding the story but it's not being presented clearly.
My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
They did. The laws are designed to protect against someone who is unqualified from claiming to offer engineering as a service or offer their work as certified licensed work.
The person down at the local subway can call himself a "sandwich engineer" if they so choose, but as soon as they start claiming they can design structures, power grids, etc for someone, they're in trouble.
As an example, my good friend couldn't even put "engineering" in the title of his side business because he wasn't going to offer true engineering as a service. He is a licensed P.E. in three states..
Give the dude a break - he's probably Russian and doesn't speak a word of English.
You should look up acceleration in the dictionary.
A car coming towards you at 20 MPH need not accelerate to squash you.
Hmm E=1/2 m*v^2. Suppose m is around 1500kg. 20mph = 8.94 m/s. I believe all the units are correct, so multiplying that out yields about 60k joules of energy. Terminal velocity is around 53m/s, so assuming a 62kg human, you get 87k joules of energy if you just went splat from an aircraft.
The first would assume you were between a car and a brick wall and you received all the energy, which is an extreme case. At any rate, I suspect the 20mph one might be survivable, as long as your thrown out of the way, since your only getting a fraction of the available energy. (It could also easily be lethal or crippling.)
I'm too lazy to read all the details about the Oregon man, but if he got a fine for saying he is an engineer, can't we give Trump a fine every time he says believe me, or maybe every time he resorts to juvenile name calling?
Perhaps we could start with a 1 cent fine and double it each time. I'm betting he would be bankrupt within a month.
Considering the fine against him was essentially a SLAPP action, and Oregon has anti-SLAPP legislation, Mr. Jarlstrom should make the argument that an additional fine/restitution against the State Board should be applied in this case. Even if the specific legislation exempts the government, it could be argued by analogy.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
You should look up acceleration in the dictionary.
A car coming towards you at 20 MPH need not accelerate to squash you.
Hmm E=1/2 m*v^2. Suppose m is around 1500kg 20mph=8.94 m/s I believe all the units are correct, so multiplying that out yields about 60k joules of energy Terminal velocity is around 53m/s so assuming a 62kg human you get 87k joules of energy if you just went splat from an aircraft The first would assume you were between a car and a brick wall and you received all the energy which is an extreme case At any rate I suspect the 20mph one might be survivable as long as your thrown out of the way since your only getting a fraction of the available energy It could also easily be lethal or crippling.
Is there a moderation code for "mansplaining gone amok"?
The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
We certainly have a good case for it here. Even if I could moderate that post, I have no idea what moderation to give it. I can't even decide if it should be moderated up for all to see or down. Perhaps a zero valued WTF mod?
I wonder if the handful of morons who keep crying about how I'm such a liar and can never admit when I'm wrong will own up to the fact that I was right about this when it first came up a few months back. You know, with the facts and honest opinion I posted.
In other words, will the idiots stop spreading lies and admit they were wrong? You know, the things they insist I can't do, despite the frequency with which I back up my posts with actual references, come back to post corrections when I learn new information, and thank those who point me in the right direction when I'm wrong.
Will they? Huh? Will they be able to admit they were wrong?
Yes, I know this is off topic and I'm prepared to face the downmods. I just had to call out UnknowingFool, Zero__Kelvin, zifn4b, and the rest of that crew. If I'm expected to admit when I'm wrong (and I do when it happens), I expect the same from them and, well, after the dicking they've been giving me for the past few months, I deserve to gloat once.
In your face, assholes.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
I'm an EE. I looked into getting a license a few times, but nothing was relevant to the work that I do. The test seemed to cover things like electrical codes, power distribution networks and safety. Engineering is a wide field, the sample tests did not even touch on verilog, vhdl quantum mechanical or device geometry.
He is in fact an (electrical) engineer, just not one who is licensed to practice in the state of Oregon.
It's even more specific: not licensed to practice as a licensed (sometimes called professional or chartered) engineer. He can almost certainly work as an electrical engineer in Oregon.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
certainly can, provided any work he does that requires a licensed "P.E." is signed-off by one.
Sure you can, but you'll be fined $500 for it. Not for calling yourself an engineer, but for walking around with an unlicensed erection.
If you are going to erect anything around here we need prior notification of said erection sent to the traffic commission, fire marshal's office, city council, engineering office, and public utilities board. Draft reports will have to be filed on traffic and parking, fire safety, property tax estimates, structural stability, and water and sewage requirements before the erection license may be issued. The erection may not be occupied until final reports have been filed and an occupancy license issued. Issuance of any license may require payment of estimated fees and taxation at time of issuance.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
Why? He didn't lie and he didn't claim to have any expertise he didn't have, so it would be rather inappropriate to refer to him as such.
Around twenty years or so is the period where you even begin to have the chance to detect long-term patterns. Why should your 23 years impress me? Not to mention that "Acceleration In Global Warming" and "global warming" are obviously two different things. Well, it's obvious at least to people who haven't flunked freshman-level calculus.
Ezekiel 23:20
Except that he very clearly stated what his expertise was and does, in fact, hold the degrees he claims to hold. He phrased the traffic issue in terms of his expertise as "an expert in motional feedback (displacement, velocity and acceleration feedback) of powered speakers which includes the full understanding of motion of an object such as a loudspeaker cone (or a vehicle stopping or traveling through an intersection as in ORS811.260(4))"; he, then, provided an analysis of the issue framed by that expertise.
And his analysis was correct, so you can hardly say he doesn't have the expertise he claims.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
but it's pretty damn clear now that he is not an engineer.
Of course. James Watt wasn't an engineer either. In fact there had been no engineers before Oregon was founded because only after Oregon was founded could Oregon certify people as engineers. /s
Ezekiel 23:20
Whodathunkit
No global warming to speak of for 23 years
Hmmmm
- snruter rotsac
Yeah mate, the devil put the fossils in the rocks. The world is flat. We know.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Nous Sommes Tous Ingenieur(s).
Although on second thought. Maybe not,
The field of engineering is way to broad for a single license.
If your job is going to be doing dangerous things, or is somehow considered risky to the public, a license is a good to make sure you have the basic skills to do such a job safely.
However if all your job is on a virtual environment, a license is just a waste of everybody’s time and money.
An engineer is the job title that you do that covers a broad range of jobs, from creating software to driving trains.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
No one cares about the damn traffic lights. The question is: Can you walk around with an erection clasiming youâ(TM)re an Engineer?
Today you would be more likely to claim being a media personality or a political candidate, so as to profit from the witch hunt publicity.
Did your RTFA? Did you see his photograph? Caption: "I'm an engineer, not a doctor, damnit!" http://image.oregonlive.com/ho...
Sometimes I'm glad I don't have mod points.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
He's not an "engineer" by their definition, but I bet the asshats that pursued this wouldn't hesitate to label themselves as "public servants"...
Many years ago I started a small software "engineering" shop with about a half dozen "engineers" (we used to call them that a lot more back then). Naturally, I thought it was a good idea to have "engineering" in the name of the company.
This was fine for quite a while as we never advertised and we certainly would never have even dreamed of passing ourselves off as some kind of structural or electrical engineering company. Then one day I added another phone line to the office and the local telephone company (without my knowledge) put a "free" yellow pages "ad" in their listing for the company...
The Association of Professional Engineers called me... They were good about it, but quite firm that I was absolutely not to do business under that name anymore unless I wanted to be sued out of existence. I changed the name at my inconvenience and expense. For good measure, I also changed my phone numbers.
I honestly had no idea that there was a group of people (with a lot of lawyers) who had a claim over a word in the English language. I still think it's wrong.
I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
You Oregonese just don't give up, do you?
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
And Lawyers administer the bar exam and doctors administer their exams....
Don't know if you meant 'Certified Engineer' or meant certifiable as a joke - as in "officially recognized as needing treatment for a mental disorder."
license is a good to make sure you have the basic skills ...
That is not really saying a lot.
... to do such a job safely.
Basic skills and Safely aren't really in the same ballpark IMHO.
I happen to know people who should be "engineers" but don't have the piece of paper to say they are, as well as people that have the piece of paper, that really shouldn't. Piece of paper is just a barrier to entry and doesn't indicate any real competency.
Once you realize that, you look beyond the paper for actual experience and proof of skill, which is what you should be doing regardless of the piece of paper requirement by the state.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Right, regardless of the fact that the PE might or might not understand anything the actual engineer did.
I happen to know a Draftsman who works for an engineering company, he does ALL the engineering, and the guy signing the drawings can barely (if at all) read them, and most of the time doesn't even bother. If people actually knew that the guy with the piece of paper didn't actually do the actual work, they'd be freaking out. On the other hand, they should be grateful that they aren't. ;)
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
It doesn't matter if he's an engineer or not
He said he was an engineer.
"Free speech" means that the government can't punish you for what you say.
That dosn't mean that a person can practice engineering without a license and to do so violates laws and ordinances crafted outside the protections of the 1st amendment.
This guy did not "practice." There are no damages to show and, for that reason, the state has no standing.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Yea I don't think that was ever even a valid argument. The guy was most definitely knowledgeable enough and had the expertise to make the analysis. The only argument was if he was violating P.E. laws by claiming the title without having the certification in the state. Clearly the answer is no he was not now, so by all accounts he comes out ahead here.
Even I, as a person that thought he probably did violate those laws originally, can't say anything negative about the guy concerning this whole debacle. The only even remote argument someone could make now is that it opens the door for people to use the term who really are not qualified. Problem with that though, either one, people don't give a shit what qualifications the person has anyway, or two, a little bit of research/questioning determines that person to be a fraud.
Really the end result is sensible limits have been clearly established for the governing body. I am in favor of the P.E. system, and even if I mistakenly thought they had the authority to levy the fine, I can't say that I agreed they should have in that instance.
If calling yourself an Engineer is a free speech right, then I'm every cool, qualified title on earth.
"Free speech" means that the government can't punish you for what you say.
Apart from, you know, the exceptions. Like copyright, slander, perjury, inciting panic, inciting violence, false advertising, and yes, protected terms.
I'm glad the pendulum is swinging the other way towards freer labor markets and less occupational licensing, since study after study shows all it does is hurt those worst off in society who have a valuable skill they can use to earn money, but don't have the money to pay for the license to legally use that skill. Also these licenses mean that we as consumers pay more for the services, be it barbers, plumbers, nurses, doctors, etc.
I don't care how well you did on some state-issued exam which may or may not be relevant to your job. All I care about is 'can you do the job i'm paying you for' and I determine that the same way most consumers do, Relying on the 'reputation market' of repeat business, branding, word-of-mouth, and review sites like yelp
Those "exceptions," you mention are not, "free speech." Like making money pretending to be an engineer, those are simply, "illegal."
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Exactly this. For instance, in order to be a chef or run a restaurant kitchen in many places you are required to have a ServSafe certification. That serves a state interest in ensuring that public eateries know how to serve food that is safe to eat.
So you may end up with safe-to-eat food, but that doesn't mean it's any good.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
The NCEES does now have a Computer Engineering option that looks much more reasonable for those of us that are more on that side of things. Sadly Oregon requires references from three licensed Engineers to apply. I have yet to run into anyone that is actually licensed (heck 90% of my coworkers haven't even taken the FE), likely because the CE option is very new.
In practice that paper is really only needed in a few limited instances, which can all be covered by one person on a team.
A lot of this bickering about needing a paper before one can be an engineer sounds very similar to those claiming you can't be a plumber without a union card.
Every time some idiot government employee/politician creates a law or regulation that the courts find to be in violation of our Constitution, the court should order them to pay (from their personal money, not state money) for 10 hours of legal training in what the Constitution lets them do and not do.
And those hours should double if they do it again, and double again if they do it a third time (40 hours), until they stop doing it.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Amazingly, you can only become a PE after another PE signs off on your work experience. So it seems a bit catch-22.
And you can only become a human being if another human being gives birth to you. What's your point again?
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
In this case, the same people who determine if you get to call yourself an "Engineer" were intentionally violating safe and sensible engineering practices, resulting in vast amounts of property damage, disfiguring and life changing injuries to innocent people, and ultimately causing the death rate to rise. Why? So that some elected official's brother in law could make a shit ton of money off of some red light cameras.
So if we take that and fit it into your analogy, this would be like the state requiring every ServSafe certificate holder to be infected with typhoid. Oh, and any doctor who says this is unsafe for people will get sued by the state because hes not a chef.
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
FALSE
"Free speech" means that the government can't punish you for what you say.
Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences of speech.
Freedom of speech means that the government may not prevent you from speaking (sharing your opinions), especially with regards to the government (aka political speech).
"You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
Like making money pretending to be an engineer, those are simply, "illegal."
In the US, 'engineer' is a protected term. Aren't we still talking about the realm of the illegal here?
Like making money pretending to be an engineer, those are simply, "illegal."
In the US, 'engineer' is a protected term. Aren't we still talking about the realm of the illegal here?
No, no it's not. Professional Engineer maybe, but it varies from state to state.
I was given the title "Field Design Engineer" back in the early 80s by a Fortune500 company, when I only had an Associate's degree, and was really a computer technician, and doing very little actual design. "Field" just meant that I worked at customer sites.
Just another day in Paradise
By gad, you're right!
Looks like Texas has the strongest protection, where the title 'engineer' (and not only 'professional engineer') is legally protected.
They do. In fact, the people he was criticizing, civil engineers who installed red light cameras in Beaverton then cut the timing in half for the yellow light, are not just labeled as public servants, but paid as such.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I'd say that Free Speech means that the government won't prosecute you because you say something. Prior restraint is an infringement on free speech, but imprisoning somebody after saying something is also.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes