AT&T Begins Testing High-Speed Internet Over Power Lines (reuters.com)

AT&T has started trials to deliver high-speed internet over power lines. The company announced the news on Wednesday and said that trials have started in Georgia state and a non-U.S. location. Reuters reports: AT&T aims to eventually deliver speeds faster than the 1 gigabit per second consumers can currently get through fiber internet service using high-frequency airwaves that travel along power lines. While the Georgia trial is in a rural area, the service could potentially be deployed in suburbs and cities, the company said in a statement. AT&T said it had no timeline for commercial deployment and that it would look to expand trials as it develops the technology.

"We think this product is eventually one that could actually serve anywhere near a power line," said Marachel Knight, AT&T's senior vice president of wireless network architecture and design, in an interview. She added that AT&T chose an international trial location in part because the market opportunity extends beyond the United States.

Comments

Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ham radio interference problem solved?

Or do we have to pay to fund for emergency communications now/screw Ham?

Re:Ham radio.

[Mr D from 63]

I didn't know that 'airwaves' could travel over powerlines. Maybe just the high frequency ones described in the summary? That's a hell of a breakthrough.

Re: Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

We shouldn't reject new technologies in favor of obsolete ones. Your argument is like saying we should never have adopted cars because the higher speeds made the roads unsafe for horse-drawn carriages. The emergency communication issue is irrelevant because of mobile cell towers. Furthermore, if the electricity is out long enough that cell towers aren't functional, interference from internet over power lines won't be an issue, either.

Re:Ham radio.

[zlives]

it could be that they are using wet string between cables as well.

Re: Ham radio.

[Rick Schumann]

The emergency communication issue is irrelevant because of mobile cell towers

Yeah, sure, because machines with more moving parts and higher complexity never break down, do they, and they're always easy to fix, right? </sarcasm>

The Internet never has problems!
Cell towers are 100% reliable!
Cellular service never gets overloaded when there's an emergency!
'Old fashioned' analog radio communications is for LUDDITES, anything serious has to be NEW and SHINY, everybody knows that!

Are you trolling, or are you really this damned stupid? You are an AC, so it's a toss-up.

Re:Ham radio.

[k6mfw]

sounds like the broadband over powerlines proposal some years ago that died. This may do the same like Ricochet, Metro (I think) and a few others that was going to be the "cat's meow" for all internet but ended up biting the dust. Yeah, higher speed internet to more customers... call me cynical but sounds much like waiting for the flying car, controlled fusion power plants, men on Mars, etc.

Regarding emergency communications, first order of business is emergency managers (and fire chiefs, IC, others) want to first be able to talk across their town, not to another county, state. Local comms can be VHF, UHF. Of course when everything goes down, there's no power in the power lines so no interference then can do HF.

Re:Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

Its the RF radiated by unshielded power lines that is the noise issue.

Broadband over Power Line (BPL) test from 10yrs ago in Tasmainia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdcY0Eetvsw

BPL is much like the Net Neutrality battle, it gets knocked down, then crops up again later hoping we have forgotten about it...

Re: Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

Radio isn't obsolete -- do you use a smartphone? You won't be happy if AT&T's signal over power lines radiates at 2.4 GHz and it swamps your WiFi.

Re: Ham radio.

[bws111]

Radio is an obsolete technology? And this may surprise you, but the two ends of a ham conversation may be in different places, hundreds or thousands of miles apart as they were during the recent tragedy in Puerto Rico. The electric may not be out in both locations.

Re: Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask the Puerto Ricans about how "obsolete" ham radio is.

Re:Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

no. it hasn't.

at&t can buy legislators and federal agencies. ham radio operators cannot.

Re:Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

screw ham, I am sure all 20 of you will get over it when you die from old age in the upcoming months

Re: Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... That's what I was thinking too. But honestly it seems like the time it takes for people to forget is about a day or two.

Re: Ham radio.

[hackwrench]

We should be using mesh networking already anyways.

Re:Ham radio.

[PopeRatzo]

I didn't know that 'airwaves' could travel over powerlines. Maybe just the high frequency ones described in the summary? That's a hell of a breakthrough.

Don't go slamming the ham radio.

Re: Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, back when Con Edison in NY tried broadband over power lines, it radiated like crazy over LOTS of different bands, and was proven to interfere with FCC licensed stations. And they didn't "fix" it. (which is what killed BPL)

It wasn't just hams who had trouble with it, either. They were just the most vocal, as they understood the physics.

Re:Ham radio.

[FudRucker]

you got it backwards, IP over powerlines radiate RFI in to the airwaves

Re:Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't know that 'airwaves' could travel over powerlines. Maybe just the high frequency ones described in the summary? That's a hell of a breakthrough.

Power lines emit radio frequencies. If I listen to stations close to 90 FM, I get interference when passing by under power lines. I also get variable noise on the same channels at stop lights - the timing signal is close enough to 90 FM that I can hear the countdown until the light changes.

Re:Ham radio.

[Obfuscant]

Of course when everything goes down, there's no power in the power lines so no interference then can do HF.

Maybe you don't realize that the reason people use HF to communicate out of a region that has lost long distance comms is because the RECEIVING END still has service and can send help? As in, all the RF interference from the RECEIVING END'S BPL will keep the receiving end of the emergency communications from being able to hear it.

We have an HF radio in an EOC to serve the county Emergency Manager, but it has so much interference that it is absolutely useless. When the backup generators kick in to provide power for the HF radio, they'll also be powering the crap that is causing the interference. What a great system. Glad we have it.

Re:Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's get this out of the way first: You are a Moron. Second: You are an uninformed Moron, which makes you technologically illiterate as well. Third: You remain deliberately uninformed, which makes you an Asshole. To wit:
There were more Licensed Hams in the US in 2016 than at any other time in History. Add in the large number of unlicensed ones, mostly young and on VHF, and Ham Radio is not only still around, it's getting increasingly popular, and it's surprisingly apolitical now; spanning the range from Anarcho-Capitalist to volunteer Médecins Sans Frontières types.
Hams are currently _very_ popular in Puerto Rico. Can you even find Puerto Rico on a map? I thought not.

Yes, the old Boat Anchor Brands like Hallicrafters, Swan, and Drake are gone, and Collins and Ten-Tec do mostly Government Contracts now, but ICOM, Kenwood, and Yaesu are still around, and Chinese Upstarts are just now reaching down into HF. The Future, which Ten-Tec and others are dabbling in, is Synchrodyne based SDR- Software Defined Radio. Quite simple Gear mostly, and mostly Digitally derived. PDM is again being looked at, which on first glance resembles the old "International Code"- Shorts, Longs, and Blanks; Pulse Duration Modulation, which can be softly modulated so as to minimize Splatter.
And Splatter is a problem, which no doubt Internet Over Power Lines will generate in massive quantities; it always has when tried in the past. Which is why the FCC and other Regulatory bodies Worldwide haven't allowed wide-scale deployment up to now.

AT&T would best try to keep their Splatter above 10GHz, which will only annoy Three Letter Agencies and Radioastronomy weenies. And you would best stay out of it completely, you moronic, technologically illiterate, asshole. We have the Tech, and if you annoy us, we will "pin your coax" with extreme prejudice. And you can be sure that plans are in place to deal with that Professional moronic, technologically illiterate, asshole, Ajit Pai. Regardless of Political persuasion, Hams loathe that Verizon Whore.

Re: Ham radio.

[rally2xs]

>The emergency communication issue is irrelevant because of mobile cell towers.

Remember Puerto Rico? No power whatever - well, almost - everything was out except for extremely limited areas with emergency generators. The American Red Cross asked the American Radio Relay League (ARRL) for help. The ARRL is ham radio. The ARRL was able to send 22 operators that went down to Puerto Rico and relayed health and welfare messages back to the USA.

Those messages came in chiefly on 7.000 - 7.300 megahertz bad, known as 40 meters. Broadband over Power Lines (BPL) of about 10 years ago would clobber the hell out of bands in this area of the spectrum. While there was no BPL or anything else in Puerto Rico to interfere, the USA hams on the other end would not be receiving these 40 meter signals with a power line going "Braaaaaappppp" in the backyard for the purpose of delivering internet signals over a power line.

This is an idea that deserved to die before it was formed. Hopefully this will be shot dead with a bazooka before anyone can deploy it.

Re:Ham radio.

[Ol Olsoc]

I didn't know that 'airwaves' could travel over powerlines. Maybe just the high frequency ones described in the summary? That's a hell of a breakthrough.

They have done a minimal version of this for years.

The problem is that this is another one of those ideas where people believe they can trump the laws of physics.

The last time this was attempted, It failed pretty miserably. There are some serious problems. A power line is an antenna of sorts. You put signals on it, and they are going to radiate outwards from it. And the different frequencies of all the digital data will create a rather broadband hash. It interferes with licensed services. Attempts were made to notch out the frequencies that it used to not have the interference, but intermodulation, the mixing of different frequencies kind of made the notches not do much. The square-like waves of digital signals just make a splattery mess.

Then there is getting it into the house. The concept uses the signals coming in on the house wiring But the signals don't survive goingthrough the transformer that feeds poer to your house. the cure such as it is, is some bypass circuitry that has the signal travelling down high tnesion lines. like a couple KiloVolt, then bypassing the transformer. to your house line. Hopefully the failure mode is always open.

And the real kicker is that just about any radio transmission can knock them out. Kids with hand-talkies, People with CB radios, amateur radio operators, airplaines passing overhead.

Coupled with the fact that it's a "Last Mile" solution, it needs an actual fiber or cable line to get the signal to the BPL lines, the main purpose of BPL is to extract investment money from people who do not understand RF.

It's always sold as a way to get Internet access to people who aren't in a populated area. That part is 100 percent bogus. What would be the point of a last mile solution? They have to run the real line alomst to the house way out in the country.

Re: Ham radio.

[AK Marc]

Sar-chasm. The gap between you and the joke.

Re: Ham radio.

[currently_awake]

The electric company wires are a great place to string fiber optic cables to every house. You already have the right-of-way, and fiber isn't affected by emi from the power lines. Put a tripple-play box (tv, internet, phone) inside the power meter and rent the bandwidth to anyone who wants a piece and you bypass all those pesky cable monopolies too.

Re:Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering many cables often have an inlined pull string/twine, that whole thing with using wet string for DSL may mean the only reason you have internet access is the pull string, since the telecom carriers have left the infrastructure to rot in place...

Re: Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

cheap karma slut

Re:Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't know that 'airwaves' could travel over powerlines. Maybe just the high frequency ones described in the summary? That's a hell of a breakthrough.

The signals aren't carried on the powerlines. An AT&T engineer discovered that powerlines can act as wave-guides, antennas of sorts, directing the signals of small relay transceivers so that they can travel much further than they would in open air.

Re: Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't they generally underground though, except in rural areas? So it wouldn't be a matter of "stringing" but putting them through ducts? And then it's not obvious what advantage that would have over using the existing telco ducts.

Re:Ham radio.

[Mashiki]

Dear idiot, HAM is the fallback for all police, ambulance and fire services in north america.

Re:Ham radio.

[mysidia]

I didn't know that 'airwaves' could travel over powerlines.

Then perhaps you don't have a clue about RF and should listen more than speaking.
Powerlines are long strings of copper, and DEFINITELY capable of being radiators of radio frequency noise.

Hell, a frequent source of radio interference that needs to be fixed is problems with electric company transformers and utility lines -- most local utilities need a crew whose purpose in life is to identify electric utility sources of RFI such as faulty transformers or connections, where the power needs to be temporarily turned off, and these faulty elements must be replaced or cleaned to eliminate the issues.

Re:Ham radio.

[Miser]

That's ok. Depending on the frequency (the article did not say anything other than "high frequency") .... take your legal 1500W amp, key down and AT&T won't have to worry about Internet access for most of the town. This power line shit has been tried over and over but due to the fact power lines are big antennas not only will they splatter all over the radio bands, they also must ACCEPT any interference that they "hear".

Guess it's time for me to set up some beacons that randomly transmit full legal power for identification purposes ....

Re:Ham radio.

[Doctor Memory]

Powerlines are long strings of copper

If they're long high-tension lines, copper isn't strong enough. Almost all high-tension lines are aluminium. The low-power lines coming to your house are (probably) copper, but most lines that stretch any appreciable distance are aluminium. They also aren't covered in insulation, which is why you see those occasional clips of mylar balloons hitting power lines and causing arcing.

Re: Ham radio.

[wyHunter]

I think in urban cores they're underground - but almost everywhere else ('suburbs' aren't really 'rural' they're quite urban) they're above ground.

Re:Ham radio.

[wyHunter]

No, it isn't. While Ham is absolutely important, I know of no police or fire agency that even considers its use. And I'm an x-cop and a volunteer fireman. Obviously some , of which I am unaware, may use them. But for the most part the existing network of VHF repeaters etc. have emergency backup that is presumed , at least in the 48 continental states of the US, to be sufficient for any power outage. Personally I doubt that it is, but I'm just reporting the prevailing ideas. It's unfortunate because emergency preparadeness organizations need to be prepared (duh ) but in my opinion they usually aren't. As one Sergeant said to me years ago "Why, plan for disasters? It's always a cluster f---." I quit that department soon after that comment.

Re:Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

high-frequency airwaves that travel along power lines

Or actual, high frequency gravity waves. Just imagine the mountain range that can produce those!

Re:Ham radio.

[Shatrat]

It's doubtful that it was an AT&T engineer. They don't engineer their own equipment anymore since the breakup and the Bell Labs / Lucent spin off. I don't know which of their vendors is pushing this solution. This announcement is a bit out of the blue, and it sounds like a turd.

Re:Ham radio.

[dev-in-seattle]

... This announcement is a bit out of the blue, and it sounds like a turd.

It's very likely this was something they had ready to go out to show the "benefit" of repealing network neutrality at the FCC. I'm sure we'll soon see some astroturf groups saying how this will be awesome and get us to the world of tomorrow.

Re:Ham radio.

[Anonymous Coward]

They use millimeter waves and only use the metal power lines as a waveguide. There is none of the "noise" of previous data over power lines.

Re:Ham radio.

[mysidia]

If they're long high-tension lines, copper isn't strong enough. Almost all high-tension lines are aluminium.

They can be copper, silver, or aluminum --- doesn't matter, they all work as conductors, as long as the material is supported; AND
they can all act as radiators to propagate RF. If the lines are aerial lines - overhead high-voltage, then the common type would be Steel-Reinforced Aluminum (ACSR).

They are OFTEN coated or covered to protect the cable or increase its ampacity, so yeah, they're typically insulated in a sense -- the insulation won't block RF or impede the flow of high-voltage electricity, however.

Re:Ham radio.

[Mr D from 63]

I didn't know that 'airwaves' could travel over powerlines.

Then perhaps you don't have a clue about RF and should listen more than speaking.

When signals travel over copper, they are no longer 'airwaves'. That shouldn't be too hard a concept for you to understand. Airwaves travel through air. Perhaps you were trying too hard to sound smart.

Re:Ham radio.

[mysidia]

When signals travel over copper, they are no longer 'airwaves'.

FALSE. If a RF electromagnetic wave is picked up by copper and traverses along its length; it may still be called an airwave;
as the air is still a part of the system, and EM at the frequency ranges commonly used for radio broadcasts are commonly called airwaves.

The waves are electromagnetic in nature, and their properties do not fundamentally change.
For example: if RF travels from the air through the ground; we don't start calling them "ground waves".
Only mechanical waves are specific to a medium and change their fundamental properties and names based on what they are traveling on.

Re:Ham radio.

[Mr D from 63]

For example: if RF travels from the air through the ground; we don't start calling them "ground waves".

That doesn't mean anything. We don't call waves over wires 'wire waves' either. But we do use the term airwaves specifically for those passing over air. Typically in wire waves are simply 'RF' waves, not airwaves. While passing through and antenna they are not airwaves. Carrier waves can refer to waves over various medium.

Re:Ham radio.

[mysidia]

Typically in wire waves are simply 'RF' waves, not airwaves.

They are RF waves when passing in the air as well. Airwaves does not refer to a wave that happens to be in the air.
Airwaves is a nickname describes their USE and Intended Purpose, which is wireless transmission.

Carrier waves can refer to waves over various medium.

Carrier wave does NOT refer to a RF over various medium.
A carrier wave refers specifically to a modulation pattern, where a signal is being conveyed.

When we're talking about noise from powerlines: most of it just RF noise. They are waves but not carrier waves,
because the wave is only noise, not something bearing any kind of signal.

Re:Ham radio.

[Mr D from 63]

Typically in wire waves are simply 'RF' waves, not airwaves.

They are RF waves when passing in the air as well.

I agree with that, they are RF waves. The only reason the 'airwave' term came about was to describe those waves the travel through the air.

A carrier wave is a carrier wave regardless of medium... you totally missed my point. I did call a carrier wave an RF waves. So, its not clear what you are arguing.

I have a question for AT&T.

[sehlat]

Are they going to break power-line neutrality?

Re: I have a question for AT&T.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is hilarious. Not a utility....

Re: I have a question for AT&T.

[deltron8040]

Maybe this could lead to the Internet being provided as a "utility," which would be ironic if AT&T were the ones to usher this in.

AT&T has power lines since when?

[magarity]

What a nightmare of local power utilities they'll have to negotiate with, all of them wanting various size cuts or just stealing and implementing the tech on their own.

Re:AT&T has power lines since when?

[Rick Schumann]

Power companies should charge AT&T for use of their power lines based on bandwidth, and charge extra for certain websites/domains that want to traverse their network of power lines. That'll teach 'em.

What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of freqs?

[Da w00t]

In the US, there's a swath of radio band that is reserved. First for the US government (e.g. military), then for licensed amateur radio operators. I think there's a tertiary option where if $user only uses less than some-small-number-of-miliwatts. But the higher precedence one trumps the lower ones.

If this is going to be on ham radio frequencies, hams are going to essentially be able to cite FCC regs and say "shut that shit off" due to interference. Hams are GOOD at triangulating interferance, and if they discover it's coming from *all around them* they're going to speak up *quick*.

Remember, Hams are folks who have spent their own money to get radio gear, and then use that radio gear to provide emergency communications in the event of a disaster. On 9/11 I took my handset to the local hospital in case land line phones and cell phones went down. Fortunately I wasn't needed, but ... you do not want to fuck with free emergency communications.

Re:Be thankful

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know why there's terrorism on US soil? Because American troops are fighting in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Bridges

[Rick Schumann]

Wouldn't there have to be bridges at substations to retransmit the signals, because they'd get filtered out by the transformers? Or is this topologically-speaking closer to DSL, where there's a 'transceiver' or some sort on local neighborhood circuits? What about at your house? X10 signals, which are comparatively low frequency, get stopped at breaker boxes. Or would there be a modem of some sort installed right where public grid power enters the building?

I need you to power-cycle your modem; turn your entire house off, wait 15 seconds, then turn your entire house back on again

I dunno about this.

Re: Bridges

[Anonymous Coward]

Good question. http://illumin.usc.edu/26/broadband-over-power-lines/

Kind of yeah. Wonder what other freqs will have unintended emi?

Re:Bridges

[Anonymous Coward]

What is it about the breaker panel that stops X10?

Re:Be thankful

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know why there's terrorist assholes in places like Iraq and Afghanistan? Because humans are still backward-ass cavemen, believe in superstitious nonsense like 'gods' and 'ghosts' and 'souls' and stupid shit like that, insist on spreading their superstitious nonsense, based on ancient, outdated works of fiction (bible, quoran, talmud, {insert name of religious crap here} ) and use those as an excuse to subjugate people who just want to be left the fuck alone -- which by the way endangers democracy all over the world, so we try to shut them down before they get too entrenched. Or would you rather wake up one morning to find some asshole trying to cut your head off because you won't convert to their 'religion'?

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[Areyoukiddingme]

If this is going to be on ham radio frequencies, hams are going to essentially be able to cite FCC regs and say "shut that shit off" due to interference. Hams are GOOD at triangulating interferance, and if they discover it's coming from *all around them* they're going to speak up *quick*.

I'd bet a pizza that AT&T has received assurances from Ajit Pai that the protests of hams will be ignored this time. Power line data has been tried before. It always makes a mess of the radio spectrum. Hams file the paperwork, and it goes away. Until the next time. This is the next time, but it might be a little different from the other times, since we have a blatantly corrupt chairman of the FCC doing what we all thought Tom Wheeler would do but didn't. I'm sure Mr. Wheeler was a great disappointment to his former employers.

Idiotic idea

[ChrisMaple]

This would be a hideous EMI generator. It would be insecure by design.

Power lines are not designed to be constant impedance, and not designed to propagate high frequencies.

Ever hear a high voltage power line insulator sizzle when it's raining? That sort of noise will wipe out any information being transmitted down the line.

Re:Idiotic idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Well when you have a wide enough lane, there is lots of space for error correction

Re:Idiotic idea

[zlives]

this is exactly why i launch 10000 pigeons to deliver my one pigeon message

Re:Idiotic idea

[thegarbz]

Ever hear a high voltage power line insulator sizzle when it's raining?

I'm quite sure that none of the powerline broadband proposals have ever even remotely considered using this as a backbone to transmit data across the country. And if the local LV power line outside is making that noise, stay the hell away from it and report it to your utility provider as quickly as possible.

Re:Idiotic idea

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're the one starting all the internet shit-storms! Stop broadcasting over RFC 1149, you insensitive clod!!

Re:Idiotic idea

[Shatrat]

It would not necessarily be insecure by design. Some access technologies, like GPON, incorporate the option for AES encryption. Most networks I've seen don't enable the feature though. You'd need very specialized equipment to sniff GPON traffic anyway. There's no reason this system couldn't be encrypted between the modem and terminating device.

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[Anonymous Coward]

[...] cite FCC regs and say "shut that shit off"

You say that like you think ATT won't just top off their bribes to make Ajit Pai say the interference isn't a problem and is actually a good thing...

Bring it!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Please! As someone living in rural America, please, please, please bring it! I can only get (very lucky to have it too) 1.5mbp DSL from CenturyLink. No other provider is available and people just down the street from me have ZERO internet access other than through shitty services like HughesNet, which costs more and has heavy data limits that even with 1.5mbp DSL I'd eat in less than 1-2 days as we stream everything, music, movies, TV, etc. Can't even get a solid FM signal where we are, unless you enjoy static and barely get a single bar for cell service with Verizon. If you have another cell provider, good luck getting a signal.

Re: Be thankful

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, who did we shut down?
Oh that guy that got replaced by someone worse? Great. Thumbs up. Mission accomplished.

All we did was encourage them to come here. Now your last sentence comes into play. It's a real possibility now. When they were all still overseas that just wasn't possible.

Re:Be thankful

[Anonymous Coward]

We wouldn't have a problem with terrorists if those same American troops weren't always fucking around in other countries, playing sides against each other and pissing everyone off.

Imagine the following scenario:
You are with a friend who tries to mug a random person on the street. When the victim fights back, your friend shoots him, turns to you and says "you should be grateful that I defended you".

Seriously, you and the government gang that is the US military can fuck off. You can't do something that pisses others off and get angry when they stand up for themselves. You can't take a dangerous job and then cry when you get hurt.

What the actual fuck?

[YuppieScum]

"...high-frequency airwaves that travel along power lines."

Did I miss the meeting where it became de rigueur to just make "science" up as you go along?

Re:What the actual fuck?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look up Goubau line. It is a single conductor waveguide.

My guess is that this is what's going to be used. I've seen this transmission line in use and it would be a good fit.

Continuing to guess, I would think the USA Federal Communications Commission could find a few GHz of spectrum in the 30GHz-80GHz range. If there are no sharp turns in the wire, the radiation from the line and susceptibility of unwanted pickup of signals into the line is quite low.

Re:What the actual fuck?

[uvajed_ekil]

Look up Goubau line. It is a single conductor waveguide.

My guess is that this is what's going to be used. I've seen this transmission line in use and it would be a good fit.

Continuing to guess, I would think the USA Federal Communications Commission could find a few GHz of spectrum in the 30GHz-80GHz range. If there are no sharp turns in the wire, the radiation from the line and susceptibility of unwanted pickup of signals into the line is quite low.

So definitely not an "airwave," got it.

Re:Be thankful

[Anonymous Coward]

Many of those "terrorists" were once called "freedom fighters" and were trained by the United States government and then used as pawns against the Soviets because the US didn't have the balls to directly strike.

So much for American "bravery" and "honour".

Ethernet over Power...

[Anonymous Coward]

As well as Power over Ethernet have been solved problems for at least 10-15 years.

The title option is waveguided maser transmission of digital signals over powerline, essentially the same as cable TV only using power lines instead of coax. The issues with it include radiated energy from long distance power lines (which as a result of the length of the lines can act like HUGE miles spanning antennas), the inability to hop transformers (meaning you need hardware at every transformer in order to continue communicating over higher/lower voltage links, similiar to cable with its distribution boxes up on the telephone poles), and last but not least competing standards for the communication protocols, each of which can interfere with other units on the same line.

By doing this they will require building out another cable-like medium plugged directly onto the high voltage lines, where failures could knock out some or all of the electric grid. EM interference which could cause degradation for HAM operators, wifi users, or microwave/satellite internet users, some of whom may have it as their only means of communication. And lastly: yet another proprietary standard locking people into equipment which is only suitable for the one purpose, interferes with alternatives and is being used to cover for the fact that AT&T got paid billions for a fiber rollout wherein they pocketed the money and then charged us all up the ass for shitty copper connections anyways, until verizon gave them the bright idea that if they pull their copper they can claim previous restrictions on them were tied to the copper and not to their status as a private communications company with monopoly status over multiple regions.

Just run the fiber darnit!

[ERJ]

We managed to get electric and phone to every home and cable to most...we can get fiber to all of them. Stop screwing around with these other stupid techs.

Re:Just run the fiber darnit!

[Anonymous Coward]

nono lets bring back adsl because copper must always be used with the telephone poles that will never get used otherwise...

Re:Just run the fiber darnit!

[Anonymous Coward]

We managed to get electric and phone to every home and cable to most...we can get fiber to all of them. Stop screwing around with these other stupid techs.

To be fair, sometimes using cheaper technologies in remote areas may make sense. You just have to run the numbers. I suspect you are correct in this case though.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ran the numbers? Assuming fiber was ran, what is the expected life span? Is the type of fiber we have now expected to be what we are using 10 years from now?

Personally, I'd like to see something like a single piece of rolled plastic pipe (pex or thick poly?) to be ran from a roadside box to a basement communications area. Then you could pull out whatever is in the plastic pipe, and run a new wire/fiber/whatever.

Basically the labor is likely the largest cost. Of course running cable is a fraction of the cost of installing something like underground pipes.

The key is organization. If you were building a new subdivision, you could, for instance, run this data pipe, the natural gas pipe, and a water pipe more or less side by side and even bring them all back to a central area for maintenance and monitoring. You could then remove the natural gas and water meter from a property. Of course such an approach is more costly since you run more in parallel, but it is also easier to maintain.

Re:Just run the fiber darnit!

[uvajed_ekil]

We managed to get electric and phone to every home and cable to most...we can get fiber to all of them. Stop screwing around with these other stupid techs.

Yeah, they used to talk a lot about fiber. Then they found out how expensive it is to get it to rural, suburban, and overly-dense urban areas, and they pretty much gave up.

Re:Just run the fiber darnit!

[currently_awake]

They said the same thing about how expensive highway and roads are, so the government paid for it.

Just great.

[fahrbot-bot]

AT&T has started trials to deliver high-speed internet over power lines.

What's the competition for power lines in the average neighborhood?

Re:Just great.

[Actually, I do RTFA]

The average neighborhood can get fiber. This is for the country, where it's impractical to run fiber. The same low population density means lower competition.

Re:Be thankful

[PopeRatzo]

Because humans are still backward-ass cavemen

Do you have to bring the Alabama Republican candidates into every discussion? We don't want to hear your political opinions, libtard.

AT&T answers:

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes

Re:AT&T answers:

[uvajed_ekil]

AT&T's real answer, also signed by Verizon: We don't give a fuck what you think or how you label us or our actions, and we'll do what we want.

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd bet a pizza...

Is that a pizza bought with bitcoin or with real currency?

Broadband over TRANMISION lines, NOT DISTRIBUTION

[williamyf]

IIRC what I read on other sources, this time around, AT&T is using the three TRANSMISION lines (115KiloVolts to 500KiloVolts) as a waveguide.

This is not your BPL stuff to the home. This is not going in the 110/220/480volts powerlines.

And If they intend to transmit 1Gbps, they better operate at VERY high frequencies. Higher than HAM.

Probably intended to feed data to basestations in rural areas.

Disregard previous comment

[williamyf]

Info is wrong, this does travel over the distribution lines.

By bad, sorry

Fiber buried in the ground under the power lines

[Anonymous Coward]

In Phoenix AZ the power provider SRP has fiber buried in the ground beneath the power lines. No need to send signals over the power lines when burying fiber is cheap and easy.
http://www.srptelecom.com

Picturephone again

[Anonymous Coward]

somebody wake up at&t.

Oddball Thought Time

[nehumanuscrede]

I'm not an EE type, but I can't help but wonder how this works with any reliability behind it.

Power is inherently noisy. Especially at my house if I'm to believe what the UPS tells me.
It's unshielded, thus will pick up everything and its brother and cause problems with the HF bands.
I'm sure you've heard the effect when turning on a light-switch with an active speaker running. ( pop )
How the hell do you get the signal across the transformers along the path ?

Maybe it comes with some goofy ( of course it's going to be proprietary, but they'll rent you one ) router or
switch that just plugs into an unfiltered receptacle ?

( Still doesn't explain how that signal is going to get past the transformer )

Re:Oddball Thought Time

[Anonymous Coward]

Gonna need plenty of new hardware along the way (filters, adapters on utility poles at transformers, point of service adapters/gateways, and more), but it isn't that wild of a technology, from a purely technological standpoint. The point is that much of the infrastructure is in place and rights of way already exist, even if not everything is ready to go.

Re:Oddball Thought Time

[Anonymous Coward]

Radio waves travel through space that is generally noisy and that seems to work out well enough. But I don't thin no this is the primary problem. Noise is fairly easy to deal with. Reflections of your own signal from the general star configuration is going to be trouble. I am an EE but RF is not my specialty. But transmission lines or busses never benefit from lots of little stubs. Still, they do seem to get decent performance from MoCA and that's reasonably ugly (better balanced perhaps as far as reflections).

Re:Oddball Thought Time

[AutodidactLabrat]

Wrong.
The noise on a power system is intermittant, covers all bandwidths randomly, and is of an extremely high energy (low source impedance)
In 500 decades or so it might work

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Really?

[Sqreater]

"... using high-frequency airwaves that travel along power lines"

And up things really go down?

Re:Broadband over TRANMISION lines, NOT DISTRIBUTI

[Obfuscant]

And If they intend to transmit 1Gbps, they better operate at VERY high frequencies. Higher than HAM.

The amateur radio service has allocations above 1 GHz. Lots of them.

Re:Be thankful

[Anonymous Coward]

Because humans are still backward-ass cavemen

Do you have to bring the Alabama Republican candidates into every discussion? We don't want to hear your political opinions, libtard.

The whole thread is off topic Still, I can't resist, though I probably should. (I probably would have resisted without the libtard thing, but as a liberal I was mildly insulted/inspired when I saw it.)

The part about denigrating religions as fairy tales was not necessarily a lefty point of view. Most on the left just don't care what you believe, unless you start forcing those beliefs on everyone else. Most people in general don't like to be told how to live, so that shouldn't be all that surprising. The other part about being afraid some crazy nutcase is going to come kill you if you don't convert, well that is semi alt right these days. Terrorism is a pretty unlikely way to die in the United States.

My own opinion is religion and faith can be a valid source for decision making when other more scientific methods don't yield the answer. For instance, "Is climate change real?" has a readily accepted answer of "Yes." There is no need to turn to any particular brand of faith.

As far as Alabama goes. Who brought that up? But since you did. I'm glad Jones won. I'm horrified it was basically a tie. It seems in Alabama a generally crap candidate with such fun opinions as we should get rid of amendments 11+, that we were better off when we had slaves, likely child molester, and having been kicked off the Alabama supreme court what twice was about equal to well qualified democrat. That is a tad scary. That Alabama probably effectively represents many times as many people as are in the state with its two senators is also scary.

Personally, I'd rather they take candidate party off of ballots and put them down in pseudo random order. (The scanner can read a code or something.) It won't fix much, but it would weaken the grip of political parties a little bit, at least for less popular races. While we are at it, maybe we can force them all to use source control for legislation, with each edit approved by the congressman who is responsible for it. That would be a huge leap for transparency, and about as likely as Trump renouncing lying and meaning it.

Now as to the real topic. AT&T is like the Comcast of the telephone industry. They have had decades to upgrade infrastructure, but generally only do it where short term profits are assured, such as cities. I'd be very wary of any service offering from them. Also, if anyone does consider an offer, make sure you find the all in price including all taxes. Checking on the cancellation fees is likely also a very good idea. You might even want to read their terms and conditions...

Re: Be thankful

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't have the balls to start a war that would have ended with well over a billion people dead, and three continents worth of societies laying in ruin.

Pretty glad it happened that way, actually. Take your bravado and jam it up your ass.

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[R3d M3rcury]

Remember, Hams are folks who have spent their own money to get radio gear, and then use that radio gear to provide emergency communications in the event of a disaster.

And they are wonderful people for doing this. But, keep in mind that the other 99.9% when there is no emergency going on, they are using it to chat with people on the other side of the globe.

So I--and all my neighbors--have to give up on 1Gb/sec Internet so that you can chat with Ivan in Ukraine?

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[Obfuscant]

they are using it to chat with people on the other side of the globe.

They are also using it to train and practice for the times when lives depend on it.

So I--and all my neighbors--have to give up on 1Gb/sec Internet so that you can chat with Ivan in Ukraine?

No, you just have to use a system that doesn't obliterate existing uses of the radio spectrum, that is already recognized as a backup communications system when disaster strikes.

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[speedlaw]

BPL was used as an experiment a few years ago in a community nearby. The interference to HF ham radio and the CB frequencies extended about a block or so in each direction. The problem works both ways though. If you keyed up a transmitter on CB or Ham at the 50-100 watt level, the BPL would overload, quit, be silent for a few seconds, then recommence.

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[uvajed_ekil]

I'd bet a pizza...

Is that a pizza bought with bitcoin or with real currency?

Doesn't matter cause it's Little Caesar's anyway. Pass.

Re:Be thankful

[PopeRatzo]

Now as to the real topic. AT&T is like the Comcast of the telephone industry.

So, what you're saying is that AT&T is the Roy Moore of telecoms?

This reminds me, I have a Roy Moore joke:

"Say, Cletus, it sure is cold here in Alabama. It only got to be 35 today!"
"Yes sir, Judge Moore. I hear tonight we'll be dipping into the teens."

[Don't pretend you didn't laugh]

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[currently_awake]

The Police use radios to call for help if they get in trouble. They also have a legal monopoly on those frequencies, and guns. I expect they will find a way to shut that noise off.

this is very bad for health

[elcor]

as anyone who has used ethernet over power socket can attest

It's like 2009 all over again

[Tony Isaac]

https://www.greentechmedia.com...

Re:Be thankful

[AutodidactLabrat]

Bullshit
you have the freedom to USE that net only thanks to lawyers interfering with the plans of GENERALS to have unfettered access to every word you write

Re:Be thankful

[AutodidactLabrat]

Do you know why there's terrorism on US soil? Because American troops are fighting in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Liar.
Or is England free of terrorism?
THEY are fighting there also, idiot

Re:Be thankful

[AutodidactLabrat]

Many of those "terrorists" were once called "freedom fighters" ...

They are NOW called Freedom Fighters.
Just not by us.

ARRL needs to start sueballing

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't going to go away until ATT actually flip the switch and then ARRL/rest of world start sueballing for wiping out the low end HF bands

I guess NASA won't be too happy with some of their HF/LF comms as well, or any spook agency that used equipment on that frequency that nobody has throught about

Or anyone that licensed those bands from the FCC (and outside of the US as well).

I for one hope that this gets turned on used, and then seen for the disgrace of a decision it should have been and then those responsible get sued with no 'golden parachute' (there's too much of that shit-dodging crap going on)

Re:Be thankful

[Anonymous Coward]

Because humans are still backward-ass cavemen

Do you have to bring the Alabama Republican candidates into every discussion? We don't want to hear your political opinions, libtard.

Libtards, Contards and Trumptards have one thing in common: they're ALL tards.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[StikyPad]

I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I couldn't hear your rational argument over the uproarious laughter of Ajit & Donald, and the cacophony of gold being thrown at them by telcos.

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[StikyPad]

Actually, we don't have to do anything. If people, government, monied interests, or some combination thereof want to change the status quo, they will.

Relegating hams to non-interference instead of service providers would honestly make way more sense. In the event of an emergency where there's a local internet outage, any restrictions won't matter since a) there won't be anything to interfere with, b) prosecution of almost any law requires mens rea (criminal intent) and trying to save lives is the opposite of that, and c) nobody is going to have time to track down operators anyway.

Common Carrier

[plloi]

If you're going to use common carrier infrastructure to deliver a service, does that make you a common carrier?

Good Grief

[Ancient_Hacker]

You know how on CSI they can zoom in on a 640x480 video camera and see the filed-off serial number on a gun? Sending lots of information over an AC power line is like that. There are many basic electromagnetic hurdles, many of them quite intractable. You have the issues of bandwidth over bare wires, bandwith through transformers, all the noise-supression capacitors across the power line, line noise from light-dimmers, fluourescent tubes, dozens of nearby switching-mode power supplies, lightning, salt on power-line insulators, corona on high-voltage lines, power-factor-compensated switching-mode power supplies that switch all through the AC cycle, LED lamps, streetlights, light-switches, brushed and brushless electric motors, illegal transmission and interference with amateur, land-mobile, radio-telescope and CB, and more.

Re:Be thankful

[wyHunter]

Which AT&T? The pre-1984 AT&T, who built the telephone plant throughout the nation? The post-1984 AT&T who did long distance and tried, desperately, to sell computers and did sell network elements? The post-AT&T AT&T, the company now called 'at&t' who is really Southwestern Bell? To which AT&T do you refer?

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[wyHunter]

You mean they should give up their chat so you can have yours?

Re:What frequency? WIll ATT be tertiary use of fre

[Obfuscant]

Actually, we don't have to do anything.

Oh, for Christ's sake. I'm sorry your first language isn't English and you can't recognize standard idioms.

In the event of an emergency where there's a local internet outage, any restrictions won't matter since a) there won't be anything to interfere with

And now you show it isn't a language problem, it's a brain problem.

Sounds Awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice that someone in the USA has started implementing this.

Belgium had it 18 years ago, so it's nice that we are finally seeing here in the states.

This is an old idea

[Anonymous Coward]

and I'm very glad it is being revisited.