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Hackers Seem Close To Publicly Unlocking the Nintendo Switch (arstechnica.com)

Posted by BeauHD on from the close-but-no-cigar dept.

Ars Technica reports that "hackers have been finding partial vulnerabilities in early versions of the [Nintendo] Switch firmware throughout 2017." They have discovered a Webkit flaw that allows for basic "user level" access to some portions of the underlying system and a service-level initialization flaw that gives hackers slightly more control over the Switch OS. "But the potential for running arbitary homebrew code on the Switch really started looking promising late last month, with a talk at the 34th Chaos Communication Congress (34C3) in Leipzig Germany," reports Ars. "In that talk, hackers Plutoo, Derrek, and Naehrwert outlined an intricate method for gaining kernel-level access and nearly full control of the Switch hardware." From the report: The full 45-minute talk is worth a watch for the technically inclined, it describes using the basic exploits discussed above as a wedge to dig deep into how the Switch works at the most basic level. At one point, the hackers sniff data coming through the Switch's memory bus to figure out the timing for an important security check. At another, they solder an FPGA onto the Switch's ARM chip and bit-bang their way to decoding the secret key that unlocks all of the Switch's encrypted system binaries. The team of Switch hackers even got an unexpected assist in its hacking efforts from chipmaker Nvidia. The "custom chip" inside the Switch is apparently so similar to an off-the-shelf Nvidia Tegra X1 that a $700 Jetson TX1 development kit let the hackers get significant insight into the Switch's innards. More than that, amid the thousand of pages of Nvidia's public documentation for the X1 is a section on how to "bypass the SMMU" (the System Memory Management Unit), which gave the hackers a viable method to copy and write a modified kernel to the Switch's system RAM. As Plutoo put it in the talk, "Nvidia backdoored themselves."

91 comments

  1. You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Why doesn't Nintendo just allow people to use these computers as they see fit? Why must one always struggle for freedom from the Dear Leader?

    1. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why doesn't Nintendo just allow people to use these computers as they see fit? Why must one always struggle for freedom from the Dear Leader?

      Because in every single case where a gaming system has been hacked, that hack is used to play games the person didn't pay for.

      Yes, there are many other reasons for unlocking the hardware and many other things you can do with a small portable computer like the switch, but the most widely used reason will be pirating games.

    2. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Z80a · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, the biggest fear nintendo have is not piracy, but unlicensed games.
      You have to pay a big, big fee to nintendo to manufacture games for it, but if the publishers could avoid it somehow...

    3. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But maybe they wouldn't have bought the games anyway?

    4. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by pots · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is the truth, the parent AC doesn't know his gaming history. The Atari 2600 had no DRM and had huge problems with other companies making games for the platform, something that Atari had never anticipated. Nintendo's president believed at the time that this is what killed them. Not lack of royalties, but a flood of low quality games that Atari had no control over.

      Whether this is true or not is debatable - they were a little too firmly dedicated to the 2600 and compromised subsequent platforms in its favor. Also, the controller for the 5200 was terrible. But this is the principle that Nintendo operated under, and it certainly worked out well for them. The NES was the first console with a DRM chip.

    5. Re: You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Because in every single case where a gaming system has been hacked, that hack is used to play games the person didn't pay for.

      Sure, but given that every platform is hacked in a matter of months, you would think that sooner or later they might wise up and realize that all the effort they put into trying to "protect" their platform could be put to much better use on making the system more versatile and flexible so that more people would purchase the devices as general use platforms. Then take a lesson from Android and the apple ecosystem, and throw in an app store with many free-to-try games which are either supported by adds or require payment to get past the initial trial period.

      Right now, with these platforms being locked in to the old model, many of us won't even bother with them until someone figures out how to throw a homebrew OS on them. If they designed them to be open and versatile from the getgo I would be much more inclined to buy one early on.

    6. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the system is unlocked even more people would pirate the games. Nintendo knows this very well given the history of pirating on early gaming systems. It's to prevent the 99% of people who won't bother to learn or take the time to hack their system.

      Anyway no game developer will spend tens of millions developing a game for an unlocked system today. Players demand all these features and open worlds, you need a hundred designers and coders and that costs a million a month, so developers have to make a return or why bother.

      Facts of life.

    7. Re: You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by c6gunner · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's to prevent the 99% of people who won't bother to learn or take the time to hack their system.

      99% won't learn, but they don't need to; as a 15 year old kid I made a booming business out of helping others modify their PlayStation consoles to play pirated discs, and then made more money selling them the actual games.

      The majority of their user base might remain ignorant, but that's completely irrelevant as long as the users have access to a few guys who know what they're doing.

    8. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by gl4ss · · Score: 3

      "Not lack of royalties, but a flood of low quality games that Atari had no control over."

      nintendo has no problem with crapware on the switch marketplace as long as they get royalties...

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    9. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by tlhIngan · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is the truth, the parent AC doesn't know his gaming history. The Atari 2600 had no DRM and had huge problems with other companies making games for the platform, something that Atari had never anticipated. Nintendo's president believed at the time that this is what killed them. Not lack of royalties, but a flood of low quality games that Atari had no control over.

      Whether this is true or not is debatable - they were a little too firmly dedicated to the 2600 and compromised subsequent platforms in its favor

      Basically, what happened was EA and Activision happened, formed by a bunch of disgruntled Atari programmers. Basically Atari management refused to let the programmers put their names on the games and get some credit, so they left and formed EA and Activision. Since they were ex-Atari, they had all the inside knowledge on how it worked, so they started making their own games for it.

      And make a ton of games they did - they kept cranking it out, because everyone wanted in on video games, so it was the best of times - crank out stuff. But then people came to the realization that most of what they had was... crap - churned out to make a quick buck because everyone was buying up games by the dozen - retailers were ordering hundreds of copies per store, etc. It was a boom time.

      Then people realized most of it was crap and shovelware and stopped buying games. Retailers were stuck with thousands of cartridges and returned them in droves. Even worse, retailers were not buying games. Now this did not happen overnight, it basically took a couple of years where the video game industry declined. It became so bad, "video games" were a banned word at many retailers.

      And this is where Nintendo comes in. They didn't call their system a video game system, they called it a toy, not to be sold in the now-banned video game section of the store, but where all the toys were. Problem number one - toy sections are girls, or boys. You can guess where Nintendo went, and potentially where we have such a gender imbalance in gaming today. (Check the ads - Atari ads always showed a relatively balanced family - mom, dad, son, daughter, playing their game system. Nintendo, though, showed only boys. No girls, no adults (it was a toy)).

      Anyhow, the other reason for it is obvious - few people care about homebrew games on switch, everyone wants pirated games. So cracking the Switch really is for everyone to not pay for games ever again. (And ironically, this time around, it wouldn't be Nintendo strangling 3rd party developers). Face it, that's the real truth behind all the hacking.

    10. Re: You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      And this is where Nintendo comes in. They didn't call their system a video game system, they called it a toy, not to be sold in the now-banned video game section of the store, but where all the toys were.

      That's some cute revisionism, but it's not exactly accurate. After the crash, Nintendo first attempted to position themselves as a full-fledged computer system. This failed, for various reasons. Following that, they then marketed their console as an "entertainment system" which was, as you say, listed as a "toy". However, all of your feminist editorialising is mostly bullshit; the idea that "toys have to be marketed either to boys or girls" is complete nonsense, which you could easily discover by walking into the nearest Walmart. There are entire sections of toys dedicated to things like puzzles, board games, science kits, and various other educational games, none of which are marketed to any particular gender.

      I'll concede that Nintendo may have targeted boys specifically. I have no recollection of such a campaign, but I was very young at the time so I may simply not have noticed it. But the idea that they HAD to do so due to some quirk in how toys are marketed is complete nonsense. Moreover, those of us who went to purchase a Nintendo system knew exactly what we were getting: a video game conaole. I didn't beg my parents to buy me a "boys toy"; I wanted a fucking video game system, and that's how I got my first NES.

    11. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can develop Switch games for a nominal fee of around $450 on a special developer version of the console. If you're that keen on writing games, there you go, the offer is right in the open that allows the handful of hobbyist to get into homebrew.

      But no, people want to hack the consumer version. And pirate games. Under the guise of "homebrew".

    12. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are certain people who wouldn't pay for anything unless absolutely forced to do so. And will gladly reap the benefits of backdoor access to just about anything. Let's not be too keen on promoting a society of leeches and grifters.

    13. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by mentil · · Score: 1

      Can't happen in the USA at least, due to the DMCA. If the publisher makes their own cartridge which bypasses the executable signing to run unsigned code, that violates the anti-circumvention clause. Unlike Joe Hacker, the publisher has $Billions in the bank, and the full wrath of Nintendo's legal department will come down on them, turning them into an empty husk; expect their IP to be given to Nintendo as well.

      Now, the cartridge could be sold in packaging with no Switch trademarks on it, or even a mention that it can run on a jailbroken Switch, and it'll sell a couple thousand units. The problems are a) the publisher can't give any technical support for how to jailbreak a Switch, so return rate will be high, and b) if you went to the trouble of jailbreaking your own Switch, why not just pirate that game? If the publisher DID give info on how to jailbreak your Switch, expect another massive lawsuit from Nintendo. So, not gonna happen. Maybe the publisher could just not sell the game in any country that has a DRM anti-circumvention law, but the hit to revenue would be FAR beyond what they'd spend on licensing fees (nearly half of Final Fantasy 15's sales were in the USA alone, for an atypical example).

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    14. Re: You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by mrfaithful · · Score: 1

      Sure, but given that every platform is hacked in a matter of months,

      They aren't as such. Usually they hold out for years and years. It depends on your perspective.

      For the most part these hacks are too difficult for the average user and it usually takes a year or so before enough of the hassle has been ironed out that even the technically inclined can claim it's convenient to use. Up until recently everything required a hardware device. The earlier cart based consoles required disc copiers, CD consoles needed a soldered in mod chip, the DS needed special flash carts that could only be produced once the key mechanism was discovered to be faulty. The PSP was unique in that it could be done entirely in software (at first) though it did require specific games that may not have been easy to obtain. The 360 required a JTAG device to write custom firmware onto the DVD drive...

      Anyway, my point is that whilst they are technically cracked within a year or so, it's not like cracking DRM on a PC release. Utilising the hacks on consoles generally required technical know-how, a supply of the bit of hardware you needed and often times the right motherboard revision or the right firmware. Most people didn't have access to any of that. You'll find clusters of it, where there's someone nearby that people use, but if they don't have Steve in the dodgy mobile phone repair shop the machine remains essentially unhacked.

    15. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by mentil · · Score: 1

      Another interesting thing about the Crash I only learned about recently was that at the time, video games were sold from wholesalers to retailers under an unusual scheme which encouraged retailers to hoard large amounts of games. I don't recall the particulars but IIRC it led to large numbers of unsold games being put into the bargain bin.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    16. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by pots · · Score: 1

      So cracking the Switch really is for everyone to not pay for games ever again.

      Well piracy is certainly part of it, but it's not a question of homebrew games or pirated games - you can do other things with a portable computer that connects to your TV. There's a lot of precedent for getting non-game utility from consoles. I'm sure you've heard of Kodi, previously XBMC (Xbox Media Center).

      You're right though, I didn't meant to suggest that Nintendo is unconcerned with piracy. Only that Nintendo started putting DRM in their consoles in order to stop unlicensed developers, and that this is still the primary reason for it. (not the only reason for it)

    17. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Oh please. The original NES library was rife with low quality games that were shoveled out by the dozen. Mostly games made after movie titles, but far from exclusively.

      And you don't want me to start on the games for the N64, many of which were gimmicky wannabe-3d games with poor graphics, poor steering and worse content. Superman64, anyone?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re: You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Why would they want that?

      Yes, allowing homebrew and allowing you to install your own OS would make you buy it. Maybe a few more. But that's not the goal. The console sales are the necessary evil, not the target. Consoles are often sold at minimal revenue, sometimes even at a loss, at least initially. What brings the money is licensing fee on games.

      Ever noticed how console game tend to cost more than PC games? Even for the same game from the same developer? Take a wild guess where that extra money goes. Then ponder how much profit a console would have to turn to offset that.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    19. Re: You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by zinupe14 · · Score: 1

      And itâ(TM)s built to a proprietary standard.

      --
      Nerd in the making
    20. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by cloud.pt · · Score: 1

      The only thing getting software and hardware out, of a company's doors to the end-user, is the simple fact that the user can value that product's features and spend money on it. In other words, it's the fact that B2C is a monetizing strategy just like B2B.

      Companies restricting features and self-support of these products is part of that monetizing scheme. If monetizing is hampered to such an extent that the product's development/manufacturing is no longer profitable, companies stop making products. This is true for both B2B and B2C.

      When a company sells phones, consoles, PCs at cost in order to profit from selling apps, games, software or even support or other services for that hardware, that's the moment end users/consumers stop getting stuff at cost from companies, and start getting it exclusively from the community. In the eyes of a company, a consumer buys the right to do what THE COMPANY, not the user, intended with the product. No more, no less. Companies have as much right to reduce the scope of their inventions as they see fit as real people. That's the kind of democracy we and our ancestors (as a society) agreed on.

    21. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by pots · · Score: 1

      shoveled out by the dozen

      They were shoveled out at a rate of five per year. That was the much-protested maximum that Nintendo would allow licensees to release.

      Nintendo did not screen every game and reject them if they weren't great, a developer would ask about publishing on their platform and it was the developer that Nintendo would evaluate. Then if the dev had some experience and showed some potential, they would become a licensee. After that they would make their games and unless they violated one of Nintendo's rules they would get published.

    22. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Colourspace · · Score: 1

      The maximum five games a year was the reason why Konami created the Ultra Games imprint to get an extra 5 titles a year out,

    23. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by elrous0 · · Score: 2

      I'm sure you've heard of Kodi, previously XBMC (Xbox Media Center).

      Yeah, which people mostly use to pirate movies and TV.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    24. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The IBM-PC had a thriving market for DOS games and microsoft didn't charge one penny for games to be licensed or have a licensing program YET it didn't kill the PC gaming market. In fact it did the opposite. The massive library and easily copyable pc games helped the IBM-PC beat apple, commodore and all the other computer/consoles at the time. So I call unlicensed games killing the platform bullshit.

    25. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Junta · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, for those homebrew things, if we are being honest with ourselves there are a plethora of products on the market that let you more easily access. the platform and cost about the same. Sure, the physical controller design is very nice as is the dock, but 7" tablets with approximately that much horsepower, HDMI out, and available bluetooth physical controllers exist.

      The industrial design is certainly nicer and the way the controllers physically reconfigure is nice, but the big thing for Switch is the games. The Wii-U suffered from not getting games out, a confusing name, and a design that awkwardly combined the TV and the tablet and suggested games should use both screens at the same time, but only for one player having tablet screen and other players only using the TV.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    26. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

      If all one wants is 'a computer' there are plenty of other freely configurable options. Hacking the Switch has other motivations. In some cases probably just for the challenge of it.

      --
      This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
    27. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IBM was not making the games however.

    28. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I WOULD have bought Fire Emblem Fates if it wasn't censored to hell and given a shit translation. So I jailbreak my 3DS and get the JP version and patch it with the new translation.

      I WOULD have bought Puyo Puyo Tetris, Bravely Default: For The Sequel (the Japanese re-release which isn't censored) and several other games if Nintendo didn't region lock the 3DS for literally no reason. So I jailbroke my 3DS to make it play any game I put in the damn thing. If I put an official working product into an official working slot, I am entitled to a working product.

      I WOULD have left my 3DS alone if Nintendo didn't do away with Miiverse and by extension the only means for a stock 3DS to take screenshots. Luma is now doing this for me. They could've made a new function but no, they refused to do so.

      I just want my games to work, features to persist, and to not be subject to puritanism. This is not an awful lot to ask.

    29. Re: You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 1

      I'll concede that Nintendo may have targeted boys specifically. I have no recollection of such a campaign, but I was very young at the time so I may simply not have noticed it. But the idea that they HAD to do so due to some quirk in how toys are marketed is complete nonsense. Moreover, those of us who went to purchase a Nintendo system knew exactly what we were getting: a video game conaole. I didn't beg my parents to buy me a "boys toy"; I wanted a fucking video game system, and that's how I got my first NES.

      Well I can check the back of my NES control deck box which shows Mom, Dad and Son. Actually to be blunt as someone that was a gamer starting with the 2600 video games were for "boys". (If you ever went to the arcade in the early 80's this was pretty obvious.) On the other hand back then it seemed like every company was more than happy if their hit appealed to everybody, like Pac-Man, Tetris, and Super Mario Bros.

      --
      Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    30. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 2

      Just to expand on this we literally had games for the 2600 based on the Chuckwagon from a dog food commercial. (Admittedly there's some pretty bad shit for the NES like Predator.)

      --
      Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    31. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Actually, the biggest fear nintendo have is not piracy, but unlicensed games.

      You have to pay a big, big fee to nintendo to manufacture games for it, but if the publishers could avoid it somehow...

      Without DRM, that could still be accomplished via a proprietary interface between the medium that the content is distributed upon and patents on that interface. It wouldn't stop people from possibly making their own and just not telling anyone about it, but it would stop other people from publishing unlicensed content for that system until the patents expired. Unlicensed games would only be playable on emulators, and why would Nintendo be so worried about emulators, exactly?

      Here's a big hint... it's not unlicensed games.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    32. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Not lack of royalties, but a flood of low quality games that Atari had no control over.

      Okay.... this is just my own opinion here, but one of the most spectacular examples of a game that played a significant role in the downfall of the console industry at the time was ET, the Extra Terrestrial, and that game was published by Atari, not a third party. Personally, I thought that Activision games were generally better than those published by Atari. Back in the day, I had about twice as many Activision cartridges that I enjoyed playing as I did Atari titles.

      I think that the problem wasn't the low quality games that Atari had no control over.... they could not cope with the competition, and their failure in being able to compete in the software arena ended up killing their hardware as well.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    33. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another interesting thing about the Crash I only learned about recently was that at the time, video games were sold from wholesalers to retailers under an unusual scheme which encouraged retailers to hoard large amounts of games. I don't recall the particulars but IIRC it led to large numbers of unsold games being put into the bargain bin.

      Yep. I worked at Kmart in the 1980s, and in 1983-1984 I had to run Blue Light Specials every 30 minutes. Got old, trying to hawk the leftover Atari 2600 cartridges for 50 cents, a dollar, etc. Still couldn't get rid of them.

    34. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm certain an awful lot of the people waiting for someone else to hack it are eager for the pirated games. Not so certain about the people actually trying to hack the system. I suspect they're in it mostly for the challenge / hacker cred. Possibly also for freeing up a whole bunch of hardware for whatever use its owner's want.

      Heck, I'm sure there's plenty of people out there like me that want a hacked console so they can store their entire library on a single convenient always-attached drive instead of changing discs/cartridges all the Fing time. The same way plenty of people rip their music and video libraries for use on their phones.

      Of course, once the data is in a conveniently shareable format, well... the fact that a person can be simultaneously generous and greedy with their digital collecting makes widespread sharing inevitable. A fact that many people have argued makes the current illegality of the practice morally repugnant.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    35. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Immerman · · Score: 1

      So what? The existence of freeloaders is irrelevant when they impose no marginal cost on the system, as is the case with digital goods.

      In that case, they're only relevant at all if they *would* pay for things if they couldn't get them for free. And even then, eliminating them is only good for business if the resulting increase in sales is greater than the decrease in sales due to also eliminating the people that would have borrowed a copy for a while and then eventually bought their own (or gone on to buy later content). I seem to recall that there's quite a bit of evidence in the music world that the net effect of piracy is actually to increase sales.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    36. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by nomadic · · Score: 1

      "They were shoveled out at a rate of five per year. That was the much-protested maximum that Nintendo would allow licensees to release."

      There was more than one licensee, so they really were shoveled out by the dozens.

    37. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Can't happen in the USA at least, due to the DMCA. If the publisher makes their own cartridge which bypasses the executable signing to run unsigned code, that violates the anti-circumvention clause."

      That alone violates the anti-tying clauses in the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act, because you can bet good money Nintendo would try to not honor the warranty on a system that had unlicensed cartridges used upon it.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    38. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by daid303 · · Score: 2

      As someone who was active in the homebrew Wii scene. Let me tell you this. The nr 1 use of homebrew on the Wii was piracy. The nr 2 use was emulators, which is usually a different form of piracy.
      Even if this wasn't the intention of the people who opened it up. It's the reality. Other homebrew applications where much less used. The video player saw some use, but performance wise wasn't great. Fully custom applications/games, very few actual users.

    39. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by trytoguess · · Score: 1

      This seems unlikely. If opening up the Switch is anything like the 3DS then the device owner will have to go out of there way to run/install programs to make the device do what they want. No reason to sell games to the small demographic who'd do that imo.

    40. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

      Why doesn't Nintendo just allow people to use these computers as they see fit? Why must one always struggle for freedom from the Dear Leader?

      It's because prior to this, when they (and most other manufacturers) spent lots of extra work and trouble designing the computer to be unusually user-hostile, the consequences were that shoppers threw money at them.

      I think people shouldn't be buying computers that were specifically made to be worse than they could be, where extra effort was put into making the computer break and not work quite right. But that's just my stupid fucking opinion, explains the market.

      --
      "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
    41. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $450 is a lot more than $0. For that much money, you can buy a whole other computer that you can develop for and still not have to pay a single cent to license the right to develop for your computer.

      The normal case is that it costs nothing to get permission to write software, because you don't need anyone else's permission.

      How much would you pay me, for the right to free speech and bear arms and not have soldiers quartered in your house in peacetime?

      How much would you pay me, to get my permission for you to have sex with your wife?

      The "how much" in the above sentences isn't really what's important, is it? It's the fucking insult that you would pay me anything. You wouldn't pay a penny. Nothing is owed, so people don't want to pay anything.

      You might be able to make a case for charging for dev kits, but it's weird and unusual, different from the other 99% of development life. It's going to be a hard sell.

    42. Re: You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does it matter if ibm or microsoft didnt release the games? Pots post said that Nintendo said it wasnt due to a lack of royalties.

    43. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the publisher makes their own cartridge which bypasses the executable signing to run unsigned code, that violates the anti-circumvention clause.

      It may, or may not. You'd have to get into the exact details of exactly what copyrighted work got its access controls bypassed.

      And one of the interesting things in the Lexmark case was that the "work" that got accessed, was determined to be insufficiently creative to be copyrightable. So a signing key, and maybe(?) the code that checks a signing key, might not count.

    44. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be fooled by high fees, really, they're a fraction of overall revenue.

    45. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's not be too keen on promoting a society of leeches and grifters.

      Agreed. Fortunately, almost nobody is advocating that we should promote such a society (except for DRM proponents).

      It's more about ignoring leeches (since they're irrelevant) combined with the outrageous, prohibitively high cost of ineffectively trying to prevent leeching. Enforcing copyright is one thing, but saying what I'm not allowed to do with the stuff I buy is completely different. Common sense rights shouldn't be infringed just because someone is worried about leeches.

      And in fact, it's turning out that the cost of fighting piracy is .. even more piracy. I simply won't buy anything that has DRM. But I also don't do without. I pirate; I don't abstain. This didn't start happening until I gave up trying to make all this fraudulent DRM shit just fucking work. (I don't know what DRM in games is like, but in video it's a total disaster.) After I gave up trying to get shit to work, I cancelled my cable TV bill, and stopped renting and buying movies. But actually I watch more TV and movies than ever before. DRM causes revenue loss, because people have to pirate anyway, just to make things work. And if you're pirating anyway, why pay? How do you overcome the anger, and frustration with the people who are supposedly trying to do business with you? I solved this by resigning to the fact that they aren't very serious about business. And when you look at DRM that way (that the sellers aren't serious professionals) piracy becomes more than just a good solution. It becomes a habit, routine. The familiar performance bar is now higher than anything Hollywood offers for any amount of money. If you'r not pirating TV and movies yet, I guarantee your "UX" and UI are painful jokes compared to compared to the hassle-free life of a pirate.

      They drove away a lot of people with their DRM, and they're going to be hard to win back. And these were people who were sending a fuckton of money to Hollywood.

      Of course, that's video, not video games. Not quite the same market. But one thing is sure: giving up on DRM was the best thing to ever hit my entertainment system. It was definitely the right choice, and I highly recommend it to others. And if I ever get into video game consoles (which I probably won't, but you never know...) if there's still DRM there, experience tells me that the obvious common sense thing to do, would be to just dive into it via 100% piracy instead of wasting my time trying to play ball with an industry who acts in bad faith with their customers. (Fool me twice, shame on me. I learned from my movie/TV experience. Hoolywood taught me well that people should pirate DRMed things.)

      DRM needs to be outlawed, ASAP, if not to respect peoples' rights, then at least to stop actively promoting and encouraging piracy.

    46. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by parkinglot777 · · Score: 1

      nintendo has no problem with crapware on the switch marketplace as long as they get royalties...

      You stopped reading after the first paragraph, didn't you? Besides, the decision was way back then. Nintendo kept what they were doing which seems to work fine with them. Their purpose might have changed nowadays, but that still consistent with what they are doing.

    47. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who was active in the homebrew Wii scene. Let me tell you this. The nr 1 use of homebrew on the Wii was piracy. The nr 2 use was emulators, which is usually a different form of piracy.
      Even if this wasn't the intention of the people who opened it up. It's the reality. Other homebrew applications where much less used. The video player saw some use, but performance wise wasn't great. Fully custom applications/games, very few actual users.

      And as one of your clients, I will tell you why that is: Numbers.

      Look at the number of novel Apps / Games you guys made. Look at the number hours you could spend with each one. Then look at the number of novel Games that Nintendo and friends made. Then look at the number of hours you could spend with those.

      Yeah, you made a video player, a handful of id tech engine ports, and a crap ton of emulators. Nintendo and friends made a lot more content and that's the reason they got more "views".

      Get some more custom content, and work on your presentation. Seriously, a unified "app store" built into the homebrew launcher, that was actually kept up to date, maybe with a featured section, would have been a good start. Maybe try and get some others interested in writing games for homebrew instead of expecting them to write entire engines first. Maybe not let the developer community be so hostile to those playing on the dark side. (Remember, you're competing on the same side as Nintendo when it comes to getting them to go legit. Public shaming, flamewars, and hatred isn't going to win them over.) Maybe find some people who can be "game devs" for the homebrew scene, and give them priority support. Do that, and maybe those numbers will change. Until then, yeah. People go where the content is. Homebrew is one possible choice, but if there isn't any content, don't complain about your own failings when people go elsewhere.

    48. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by BitterOak · · Score: 1

      Not lack of royalties, but a flood of low quality games that Atari had no control over.

      Actually, some of the best games for the 2600 were made by third parties like Activision and Coleco (Pitfall, Demon Attack, etc.) and some of the worst were made by Atari (E.T., Pacman, etc.)

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    49. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Back in the 8 bits days, EA's titles for the Apple 2 were top of line quality.

      That didn't last long and we have what we have today.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    50. Re: You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Well I can check the back of my NES control deck box which shows Mom, Dad and Son.

      Wow.

      Well since they had the mom and not the daughter, I guess they had no problems with woman but hatted younger girls. Ageism at its worst!

      Was every culture on the box? Just curious how far this discrimination goes...

    51. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Switch supports using your own storage actually like contemporary home consoles do. It's just expensive as it's using micro SD instead of hard drives, so a 256 gig card or a couple years from now 512 gigs or even 1TB will be doable but not that cheap.
      Still DRM'd!

      "The same way plenty of people rip their music and video libraries for use on their phones."

      Funnily you can do that while staying in the clear regarding copyright, too. But there DRM on music files didn't quite catch on.

    52. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by ruir · · Score: 1

      I get amazed how the level a seemingly banal question can always be dragged down to a conversation about sexism.
      Newsflash, the boys did not keep the computers and game consoles hidden of sight or locked when they were using it, and a partner for playing would ALWAYS be welcomed.
      You know what interest was shown by my sister and her friends?
      Want to guess?
      None....Nada. It was their OWN choice.
      It should also be noted at the time such equipments would be a moderate investment for *many* families, and nobody was ever dreaming of forbidding any element of the family from using it.

    53. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey asshole, a Switch is $200 not $0. The dev kit is a Switch.

    54. Re:You shouldn't have to depend on hackers. by RailRide · · Score: 1
      Demon Attack was by Imagic. Coleco was noteworthy for publishing the first home version of Donkey Kong on their own platform, along with a 2600 version.

      ---PCJ

  2. And it runs NetBSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FYI.

    1. Re:And it runs NetBSD by Z80a · · Score: 1

      In the video they say otherwise.
      It's a variation of the OS used on the 3DS, that while do use some BSD components, is not the BSD kernel.

  3. Spend $50 on a game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or thousands of hours of illegal hacking for the free game?

    1. Re:Spend $50 on a game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're not telling you how to have fun ;)

    2. Re:Spend $50 on a game by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      I can either spend 50 bucks and play a game for a few hours or enjoy countless hours of digging through a console's inner workings FOR FREE?

      That choice seems kinda easy.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe Nintendo should charge more for its hardware, and then let people do what they want with them.

    Something has to be done; otherwise, we'll be engaged in this stupid, wasteful war for the rest of eternity.

    1. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Z80a · · Score: 1

      They already won this battle, as you just can't manufacture a cartridge not approved by nintendo or create parallel game store.

    2. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      isn't the point that an unlocked console can play any cartridge - eg 5 games on one cartridge, etc

    3. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by mrfaithful · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You have a secondary problem where you get fake carts. The GBA and DS were both marred by this problem. You go looking for a specific game and you get something that looks the part only to notice that the plastic isn't quite right, the label is poor, and the PCB puts extra strain on the pins hastening the death of the slot and the developer gets not a single cent out of your purchase.

      I'd argue that this is worse than piracy. These go after customers who wanted to give developers money and instead wound up funding a pirate cloner. It basically stopped me buying DS games.

    4. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe Nintendo should charge more for its hardware, and then let people do what they want with them.

      Something has to be done; otherwise, we'll be engaged in this stupid, wasteful war for the rest of eternity.

      It's not about the immediate money. It is about the brand.

      If anyone could release games for the Nintendo consoles without going through their licensing then they can't prevent low quality games from being shoveled out.
      They don't want someone to just release a bad port of a game that runs at 10 fps.
      If the games are slow and buggy then people with get a bad impression of the console.

      They could let people do what they want with this console and even charge more for it but they fear that would mean that they wouldn't be able to charge as much for the next console and the one after that.

    5. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      That's like saying printer manufacturers should charge more for their printers and stop creating more and more ridiculous locks on the ink.

      The ink/games is what brings in the money. Selling a printer/console is one sale. Selling ink/games for it is basically a way to keep the revenue flowing long, long after you are already locked in.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as "shovelware" is concerned, you should take a look to the DS catalog.

    7. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Junta · · Score: 1

      From a technical perspective and rational standpoint, that would seem the best course.

      From a realistic business perspective, making cost of entry low, and then charging $60 per game works better. People are reluctant to say fork over 500 or 600 dollars in one go, but they will end up spending far more than that over the course of a few months if you hit them a chunk at a time.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    8. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Uhm, that *is* piracy in it's purest commercial form (with a bit of physical damage to the customer's hardware thrown in) . Going right back to the birth of the term in regards to Hollywood as a pirate distributor of East-coast media.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    9. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Immerman · · Score: 1

      More importantly, it keeps the revenue flowing with basically no additional expenditure of effort or money by the console manufacturer. License fees are all pure profit.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    10. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's not at all established.

      Atari (d.b.a. Tengen) v. Nintendo established that clean-room reverse engineering was totally OK, even though Atari didn't in that particular case.

      Sega v. Accolade established that you couldn't use technical details masquerading as a trademark as a backup strategy to promote a case from a copyright infringement suit you might lose into a trademark infringement suit you'll probably win.

      And licensee enforcement is not DMCA-protected. Only copy control measures are. These "pay us to release on our platform" schemes aren't copyright-related in any way, shape, or form, no matter how they like to dress it up. It's not there to prevent piracy, it's there to prevent you from making money without giving the platform manufacturer a cut.

      As long as you can reverse-engineer a cartridge (or disc, or even a download) that will work on the system, and you don't violate the clean-room (a.k.a. arms-length relationship) principle, you can make whatever you want, legally. That includes jailbreak patches and alternative stores.

    11. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Nintendo has historically HATED R their greatest success in their minds was the original Game Boy, because they were able to make money on that for 10+ years. There's a reason they've had to be dragged kicking and screaming to release a new generation console when their competitors did.

    12. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What do you mean Nintendo has had to be dragged kicking and screaming? Their home consoles are on a 5-year life cycle, and have been since they started. There are only minor variations to this life cycle. Due to the slow release of the NES at start, it is technically 6 years. The Wii due to its wild success lasted 6 years as well, but the WiiU didn't do well, so only lasted 4 years (averaging out with the Wii, still on a 5-year cycle). Nintendo isn't a reactionary company to their competitors, its quite the contrary actually where the competitors are constantly imitating Nintendo.

    13. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Something has to be done; otherwise, we'll be engaged in this stupid, wasteful war for the rest of eternity.

      It may be "stupid" and "wasteful", but most hobbies are. Some people are having a lot of fun with this. In any case, I'd much rather Nintendo create a business model based on technological means like DRM than to lean on the government for help by using copyright law. Which is how they did it in the past, and they almost certainly will fall back to once the system is cracked.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    14. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      We should demand an end to home and car financing. Interest is pure-profit.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    15. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      On the Wii, Mariocart became unplayable with all the people playing hacked versions and cheating.
      This will happen again if the platform is opened.

      If you want an open platform, buy a PC or microcontroller board. There are plenty of options.

       

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    16. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In that case we could end up with a PC or in the case of the switch a nVidia Shield, their hardware is already expensive for what it is.

    17. Re:Then Nintendo has a shitty business model by nomadic · · Score: 1

      It hasn't been a planned cycle; in each case they came out with a new system because they were pressured by their competitors releasing systems. When they don't have that pressure, see e.g. in the handheld market, they keep their systems going as long as possible, see e.g. game boy.

  5. Must be PROSECUTED by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for breaking the law!

      Break!

      Ing!

      The!

      LAW!

    1. Re:Must be PROSECUTED by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Germany has a law against reverse engineering? Last time I checked they actually had a provision for just making exactly that legal in their legal code concerning copyright...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  6. Not Coming to a Switch Near You by mentil · · Score: 2

    Userspace exploits had been achieved a while ago, but last I heard, nothing interesting had been found yet. Userspace exploits allow for homebrew to run, although there are sometimes limitations on this. Ever since the Wii was killed off (in part) due to piracy in its latter days, console hackers have been reluctant to release hacks that allow access to kernel space... which can be leveraged to modify the OS to allow pirated games to run. Sony's crackdown on the PS3 hackers cemented this tendency, and now hackers tend to hold on to kernelspace hacks, oftentimes for a few years if not forever. It was a few years after discovery (after the system was dead, even) before a new Wii U hack was released that granted kernel mode access; games had been smuggled through the back door of userspace for years prior (although online play was impossible this way). The Switch is less than a year old and hackers don't want to kill it dead via easy piracy; I imagine someone in China will eventually make a flash-cart that works, but even that took a few years for the 3DS.

    That hackers keep using WebKit exploits is probably the main reason the Switch doesn't have a user-accessible web browser app; the 3DS was also hacked via its YouTube app, which is also why the Switch is probably lacking similar 3rd-party apps -- they want to ensure the app's security first. Nintendo also finally started a bug-bounty program for its consoles, which has supposedly paid out for many exploits already. The Switch has sold enough units that its success is all but assured, but console hackers seem to take a dimmer view on piracy nowadays, so I wouldn't count on an easy-to-use method of piracy on the Switch in the near future.

    Citation: I have hacked many a game console

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    1. Re:Not Coming to a Switch Near You by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      In a recent tweet they claimed to have exploited a vulnerability in the system's bootloader code, which can't be patched. Not sure why it can't be patched, maybe it's in ROM rather than flash memory.

      How easy that will be to turn into a viable route for ordinary users to load pirated games I don't know.

      My favourite hack was the Dreamcast. A magazine in the UK had a demo of the Action Replay software on its cover disc, which it turned out allowed you to boot copies as a well as original discs. Word got out and the magazine sold out quickly, of course. From there it wasn't long until other people figured out how it worked and produced their own versions.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Not Coming to a Switch Near You by TyIzaeL · · Score: 1

      That hackers keep using WebKit exploits is probably the main reason the Switch doesn't have a user-accessible web browser app; the 3DS was also hacked via its YouTube app, which is also why the Switch is probably lacking similar 3rd-party apps -- they want to ensure the app's security first.

      If Nintendo could be bothered to ship a WebKit that wasn't 6+ months old it wouldn't be such a security nightmare for them.

    3. Re:Not Coming to a Switch Near You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Team Xecutor have announced a modchip that allows code execution at powerup

      Team Failover (or something similar) have found an exploit in the Nvidia Tegra chip to likewise allow unsigned code to run early in the boot process (exploit may be going a bit far, their method is mentioned in the Tegra chip spec sheet)

      Both should allow custom firmware, both will lead to piracy before the year is out. And both will sell more hardware for Nintendo, who still actually profit from the console, instead of MS/Sony who sell undervalue as loss leaders for money made on game licensing

    4. Re:Not Coming to a Switch Near You by Megane · · Score: 1

      My favorite hack still has to be the original Xbox. It needed only a few wires for a chip to bypass its internal boot ROM, all conveniently arranged in an unpopulated header on the board. MS tried to remove it on later versions, but people made adapters that let you add wires to connect the missing signals... or just searched around for an older model. And it was easily removed and installed in a different console. I even once found a dead Xbox with a chip, that I was able to install in another unit.

      Unlike the Dreamcast, the Xbox had a built-in Ethernet and hard disk (expandable to 500GB, thanks to LBA-48 patches, more if you have one of the last really big ATA drives or a SATA adapter) so you could jukebox it, and not have to deal with a stack of burned discs. (great for parties!) This is a good thing, because optical drives tend to go bad after a few years of use.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    5. Re:Not Coming to a Switch Near You by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I had a modded XBOX running XMBC back in the day. Originally used one of the chips you describe, but I think the second one I set up for a friend was some kind of soft-mod.

      It was a great system, and the remote control was really responsive.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    6. Re:Not Coming to a Switch Near You by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      I did the soft mod as well. Loading from a saved game was enough to get xbmc and the dashboard on your machine. It made a great emulator. i quick google search for the game and it was splinter cell. I'm almost positive I used a different game but regardless, it was incredibly easy.

    7. Re:Not Coming to a Switch Near You by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      From memory I think I took the hard drive out, put it in the hard modded one and loaded the new dashboard, then put it back.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  7. Another hw hole? by sad_ · · Score: 2

    2018 is starting a trend in cpu holes, now the nvidia tegra has a build in backdoor (unintentinaly?) ready to exploit.
    a cpu is no longer just a cpu, nothing is no longer a simple thing, and it's starting to cause problems.

    --
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
    1. Re:Another hw hole? by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 2

      You heard sad_, everyone! Let's all switch to the Atmel ATmega328p!

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
  8. coldboot exploit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://wololo.net/2018/01/08/fail0verflow-announce-coldboot-exploit-nintendo-switch-say-interesting-times-ahead/

    What about this coldboot exploit (that we still know nothing about)?