Slashdot Mirror
Google's 'Bro Culture' Led To Harassment, Argues New Lawsuit By Software Engineer (siliconvalley.com)
An anonymous reader quotes the Mercury News:
As a young, female software engineer at male-dominated Google, Loretta Lee was slapped, groped and even had a co-worker pop up from beneath her desk one night and tell her she'd never know what he'd been doing under there, according to a lawsuit filed against the Mountain View tech giant... Lee's lawsuit -- filed in Santa Clara County Superior Court -- alleges the company failed to to protect her, saying, "Google's bro-culture contributed to (Lee's) suffering frequent sexual harassment and gender discrimination, for which Google failed to take corrective action."
She was fired in February 2016 for poor performance, according to the suit... Lee started at the company in 2008 in Los Angeles and later switched to the firm's Mountain View campus, according to the suit, which asserts that she "was considered a talented and rising star" who received consistently "excellent" performance reviews. Lee claims that the "severe and pervasive" sexual harassment she experienced included daily abuse and egregious incidents. In addition to making lewd comments to her and ogling her "constantly," Lee's male co-workers spiked her drinks with whiskey and laughed about it; and shot Nerf balls and darts at her "almost every day," the suit alleges. One male colleague sent her a text message asking if she wanted a "horizontal hug," while another showed up at her apartment with a bottle of liquor, offering to help her fix a problem with one of her devices, refusing to leave when she asked him to, she alleges. At a holiday party, Lee "was slapped in the face by an intoxicated male co-worker for no apparent reason," according to the suit.
Lee resisted reporting an employee who had grabbed her lanyard and grazed her breasts -- and was then written up for being uncooperative. But after filing a report, "HR found her claims 'unsubstantiated,' according to the suit. 'This emboldened her colleagues to continue their inappropriate behavior,' the suit says.
"Her fear of being ostracized was realized, she claims, with co-workers refusing to approve her code in spite of her diligent work on it. Not getting her code approved led to her being 'labeled as a poor performer,' the suit says."
She was fired in February 2016 for poor performance, according to the suit... Lee started at the company in 2008 in Los Angeles and later switched to the firm's Mountain View campus, according to the suit, which asserts that she "was considered a talented and rising star" who received consistently "excellent" performance reviews. Lee claims that the "severe and pervasive" sexual harassment she experienced included daily abuse and egregious incidents. In addition to making lewd comments to her and ogling her "constantly," Lee's male co-workers spiked her drinks with whiskey and laughed about it; and shot Nerf balls and darts at her "almost every day," the suit alleges. One male colleague sent her a text message asking if she wanted a "horizontal hug," while another showed up at her apartment with a bottle of liquor, offering to help her fix a problem with one of her devices, refusing to leave when she asked him to, she alleges. At a holiday party, Lee "was slapped in the face by an intoxicated male co-worker for no apparent reason," according to the suit.
Lee resisted reporting an employee who had grabbed her lanyard and grazed her breasts -- and was then written up for being uncooperative. But after filing a report, "HR found her claims 'unsubstantiated,' according to the suit. 'This emboldened her colleagues to continue their inappropriate behavior,' the suit says.
"Her fear of being ostracized was realized, she claims, with co-workers refusing to approve her code in spite of her diligent work on it. Not getting her code approved led to her being 'labeled as a poor performer,' the suit says."
It strikes me as odd that James Damore was immediately fired for his writing, but other Google employees apparently engage in direct, physical harassment without consequence.
Perhaps the PC police fear the spread of wrongthink more than the actual crimes themselves.
Different groups of people in the same company have different obnoxious habits? How it possible????
Good. You need to toughen up. You need to learn to defend yourself in simple social situations without calling in an authority.
Your emotions do not matter. You need to be more pragmatic. You need to undertake social sanctions against people who wrong you, not legal sanctions.
You are polluting our society with your self-centeredness. If you can't manage your own personal life, as you have already proven, you need to be expelled. You are rotten.
My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
You're being snarky, but look at the big picture. This person is alleging that she was outright sexually harassed multiple times, and her superiors did nothing. Damore is alleging that he simply voiced an opinion outside the PC party line, and was immediately fired. Not both of those things can be true. Somebody is lying, and lying poorly.
I'm almost hesitant to describe this because it makes me wonder if former co-workers of mine read this site and will know what environment I'm talking about. Frequently, one co-worker who was eventually promoted to be a Director would often loudly ask questions like "Does it make you gay if _______?" and what went in the blank was always quite inappropriate and sometimes quite disturbing. There were also frequently mentions of sex acts like like Dirty Sanchez and Hot Carl's. If you don't know what those are, DO NOT look them up unless you want to be grossed out. Management knew this type of behavior was common as did HR and yet they looked the other way. In fact it was a running joke "Don't tell HR". The best part of it all is that you were compelled to join in this sophomoric behavior lest you be ostracized from the group, overlooked for promotions, etc. Absolutely filthy. Sometimes I wonder if Idiocracy is truly upon us.
We'll make great pets
I'm not a woman, and I wasn't sexually harassed, but I worked at a large biotech company in the SF Bay Area where for several years I had great reviews, I became the department's primary point of contact for one of the two segments of that business unit, I was given all of the projects that were large/complex/time sensitive because I always got them done... Then my manager's boss forced one of her personal friends on the department, a master manipulator, and true to form, it wasn't more than a couple of months before the complaints started rolling in as she set her sights on my job. Over the course of 6 months, I complain to my manager multiple times, alleging harassment on the part of my coworker, and his response is to retaliate against me. I was forced to sign a written warning, where he verbally told me he had made up a complaint from another employee in a different department. I go to the HR department, and they tell me not to worry about it and to just let it go. So I take it to the company's Ethics Office (sort of like an HR department that only investigates possible wrongdoing within the company) and despite being the one who brought the issue to their attention, I'm treated like the asshole and then fired two days later, in part because my complaint was considered "unsubstantiated."
I feel for this woman, and her mistake, like mine, was in going to the HR department instead of straight to California's DFEH. You file a complaint with them alleging some of these things, and make sure the head of HR, your manager, your manager's manager, and maybe even your manager's manager's manager, all know that you have filed this complaint, odds are they will be tripping over one another trying to resolve the problems quickly because they don't want a government agency sniffing around and finding any number of other illegal activities taking place that they turn a blind eye to.
Based on all the stories coming out recently about Google, it sounds like the company has definitely become a victim of its own success. Any time a company gets sufficiently large, these kinds of things happen. Employees aren't seen as human beings, just ID numbers in a database table, and any one of them is expendable if they start getting full of themselves, thinking silly things like they deserve to be treated like a human being and in accordance with state and federal law.
This has become a nation of schizophrenics. I'm not able to believe that both this woman's sob-story and James Damore's sob-story are both true. At some point in the information pipeline, data is being distorted, or wholesale invented.
The issue here is that women are also human, and are capable and willing to lie, abuse other people, and use their physical characteristics to get what they want. So there are bad actors out there who are not men, and modern feminism ideologically unprepared to deal with this realization.
I got into programming as a kid in the 80s, university in the 90s and programming as a day job ever since. I absolutely love reading these insane words they come up with. "Bro culture", "brogrammers" and the like. It is the most insane goddamn thing in the world. But it's only that way to me and people I know, when I step out side my circle and profession I meet people who actually believe this tripe.
Remember the movie Revenge of the Nerds, it's like if they remade that now in 2018 and reversed the jock/nerd stereotype characters and the nerds are now the out-of-control womanising bully asswipes, and people buy it.
Here is the thing. If you or your coworker doesn't want to be hit by darts. Then that is harassment. If you or someone asks them to please stop then they should stop. Because you are at work, not play.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Being that most of these posts here are on Slashdot seem to be against the idea that she was harassed, it doesn't really make too much sense for a woman to just accuse people of this stuff willy-nilly because as seen even with this sample of people that standing up and reporting harassment has a lot of blow back.
There is a degree of harassment in technology. Being a case where there isn't too many women in the field, they are already in the minority, and many employees just don't know how to treat the other sex as an equal.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Normally because such things are rather random. It isn't like they will have a calendar event Sexual Harassment room 204 between 10:00-11:00. Also while something is happening these are short bursts on inappropriateness and by the time you get the recording started anything you catch will be out of context.
No one should be expected to record their lives because someone feels like they should be a jerk.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I was hoping for a copy of the lawsuit, as it will contain what evidence she has. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to have been posted online yet.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
And on the face of it, based on what I've seen from particular (and blessedly former) coworkers, I believe this woman. But, with this lawsuit, I have some problems because of this paragraph:
"Lee’s superior and the firm’s human resources department learned of that incident and repeatedly tried persuading her to officially report the alleged groper, but she resisted out of fear of being ostracized as an “informer,” she claims. After she was written up for being uncooperative, she relented and reported the man, but HR found her claims “unsubstantiated,” according to the suit."
So the impression I get is that she wasn't reporting any of these incidents.
I do understand why someone might be uncomfortable reporting these problems... but, if you're not at least documenting them at the time they occur or - better - filing complaints as they happen... then you should be SOL.
#DeleteChrome
Were you still telling dirty jokes after the Harassment training? Probably so. You were just more careful not to get caught.
These programs normally don't stop the problem, but make sure people who do it know they are in the wrong. Damore just went on a rant going against the values that google want. While there is still a problem, where when kept quite it is much more difficult to handle.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
It's funny how the comments here mostly seek to minimize and dismiss her complaints (or outright accuse her of lying) while the comments on the James Damore story were mostly supportive.
I wonder what the difference could possibly be.
Basically this one team leader decided he didn't like me and wanted me off the team so he set me up for failure by tasking me with finding a memory leak in code the source of which I wasn't given access to, and even though the previous team leader had given me glowing reviews I was eventually let go because I couldn't find the leak anywhere outside of the code I suspected.
HR was worse than useless.
This sounds like a ridiculous bullshit story but I assure you it is true. I only had that experience once in my career but it stuck with me as an example of how office politics can just spontaneously cost you your job if someone higher up gets a whim up their ass.
I'm very curious what her code looks like, and why it was rejected. If this goes to trial, do you think examples will somehow be publicly released?
What makes you think there is no evidence? Presumably there is evidence in the lawsuit she filed, which unfortunately we don't have a copy of.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Maybe all parties are lying or maybe none of them are.
It's entirely possible for the place to be a complete frat house all around: men grabbing at women, SJWs pissing on normal people, HR treating all complaints as grounds for terminating the complainer, and upper management adrift in the clouds making high-minded paeans to whatever gods they believe themselves to be the Earthly manifestations of.
I had a friend who used to work at an East Coast Google office a while back. He quit after a few years because his direct supervisor wouldn't let him take any vacation. He also loved his coworkers and the camaraderie of his peers.
Reporting the filing of this lawsuit is fine. They can't be expected not to publish because some people can't comprehend that it's not up to the journalists to investigate the claims. They can't be expected to hold it back because some readers won't understand that it's the court that gets to decide if the complaint has merit, not them personally.
Maybe it's too early to post to Slashdot, since there is relatively little to discuss at this stage. But a simple report on the filing and the claims being made is fine.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
You're being snarky, but look at the big picture. This person is alleging that she was outright sexually harassed multiple times, and her superiors did nothing. Damore is alleging that he simply voiced an opinion outside the PC party line, and was immediately fired. Not both of those things can be true. Somebody is lying, and lying poorly.
Have you ever worked in a large company? Despite being under the same corporate umbrella, different departments handle things *much* differently -- especially when some departments have come from acquisitions.
Googlers cannot make most production changes without committing. Googlers *cannot* commit without code review. I had had a major code change (deprecating usage of a discontinued Python library) when I worked at Google, which sat open for years (and was probably still open when I left!) because the code owner refused to mark it as reviewed.
I'm not saying that I saw the behavior described by this engineer, but I can completely believe that not being able to get code reviews could lead to performance problems.
~ C.
This has become a nation of schizophrenics. I'm not able to believe that both this woman's sob-story and James Damore's sob-story are both true. At some point in the information pipeline, data is being distorted, or wholesale invented. And folks are surprised that Americans don't trust their media, and elect con-men celebrities to high office.
What has happened is Identitarian politics of groups and group-identities. Google's problem with Damore, this person, and the rest that are certain to follow, is that Google themselves embraced Identitarian ideas. Google, to a large extent, brought this on themselves and in so doing, helped spread and give such broken ideas more power.
Identitarian politics of group identities feeds on and exacerbates the tribal behaviors inherent in human nature and enables the "Other-ing" of those who disagree, allowing for their dehumanization.
Once dehumanized, opponents can be dealt with expediently by any means as "the Enemy" without needing to listen to anything the Enemy has to say. They're Evil, after all, being the Enemy.
Identitarian politics have had an enormous effect upon culture. Even comedy. Can you imagine if today Steve Martin joked as he did in his movie "The Jerk" "I was born a poor black child." That would be the end of his career. Many top comedians won't do university/college tours anymore because of the intolerance.
Stop looking at what "group" somebody may be a part of and deciding on that basis whether to listen to what they're saying, and look at the person.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
That's the right response, wrong reason. If somebody asks you to stop, you should stop regardless of whether it's work or play.
Reporting the filing of this lawsuit is fine.
Lawsuits are public information once submitted.
They can't be expected not to publish because some people can't comprehend that it's not up to the journalists to investigate the claims.
Utter nonsense. It's up to journalists to investigate claims and evidence of articles they are working on. It's their fucking job.
They can't be expected to hold it back because some readers won't understand that it's the court that gets to decide if the complaint has merit, not them personally.
Hold back what? Public information already available to everyone? Your not making any sense. Just posting random shit that comes across your desk without vetting isn't responsible journalism.
And folks are surprised that Americans don't trust their media, and elect con-men celebrities to high office.
Get it through your thick skull, we elected that asshole because the asshole running against him was a bigger liar. She stands for women, but fired a victim of harassment and kept the harasser on her campaign. She stands with victims, but repeatedly attacked a rape victim in the media because her husband was the rapist. She's a strong woman, but doesn't have the self-respect to divorce his cheating ass.
The media had nothing to do with her losing.
I can completely believe that not being able to get code reviews could lead to performance problems.
If developers can routinely be penalised because of circumstances entirely out of their control, the company has serious management issues to resolve!
Damore got fired due to public outrage. His memo circulated for a while and nobody gave a shit. It wasn't until it was leaked, and an explosion happened, that he got fired.
Google reacted to the public outrage, not to the memo.
The public outrage was firmly rooted in a misreading of the memo, too. People thought, and still think, that Damore wrote that women were less suited than men to be software developers. I read the memo myself, and he simply did not say that. He said that common female attributes might explain why few women want to be programmers. Such a statement *in no way* suggests that they are less suited, nor does it create an unwelcoming environment.
But in the court of public opinion, Damore is a sexist who thinks women are inferior. And so, that is why he got fired.
They did communicate this. Repeatedly. To HR.
Dont ruin the fun by confusing the issue with the facts....
Glad another sane person reached the same conclusion after actually reading his memo.
Being that most of these posts here are on Slashdot seem to be against the idea that she was harassed, it doesn't really make too much sense for a woman to just accuse people of this stuff willy-nilly
Sure it does. People who fling around unfounded accusations don't care whether Slashdot takes them seriously; they care about what HR and corporate lawyers have to say on the matter. It's even worse in the case of government/military workers, where there's no concern about profitability and therefore no incentive to try and reign in the abuse. Lots of people (men and women) are willing to lie their asses off with zero corroborating evidence if they know that there's a high likelihood of a large payout.
They did communicate this. Repeatedly. To HR.
According to TFA, HR said her claims were not substantiated. Some of her claims involved text messages that should be easy to validate. So either HR is lying, or she is. If HR ignored solid evidence, then she should get a nice settlement.
Please, the reaction to the Damore pdf was something out of a grade school popularity contest with all the lying and careful manipulation trying to reframe his document into the feminist narrative. - They claimed he "sent out a memo" when on one in an organization actually calls these things memos - They claimed he was a manager distributing google's company-wide policy when in reality he was just some random guy inside the company - He cited scientific sources for the things he said but the released verison mysteriously had those sources edited out (and who knows if other things were edited) - It just goes on an on like this Google fired him because sheep went along with whatever their feminists master said. Then google got hit with a lot of backlash it didn't expect. Now it's firing the people who stirred up the pot in an attempt at damage control over the whole situation. They can't come out the good guy but they're trying to come out as not taking a side in an insane political war.
"I was eventually let go because I couldn't find the leak anywhere outside of the code I suspected." You should have looked inside the place you suspected. I suspect my socks are in the drawer, I'm not going to look in my closet. Failure to communicate?
You can use different words to mean the same thing. You can't make the same word mean different things in the same context without confusion. Hence, the clarification on merge.
A double blind person doing the review? That's going to be difficult.
No. Dart guns is not normal behavior at an office. Shooting dart guns at a coworker is harrassment unless they've agreed to play.
Bullshit. Many companies that I've worked at provide toys like that to encourage mingling.
Loretta Lee was fired in retaliation to complaints. And that's a Bad Thing[tm]. She is an attractive educated young woman, and I can totally understand how a bunch of CS nerds who never had any female interaction will stare at her. But it's Not Right.
It's sad that this still happens in 2018.
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
Not necessarily. Look at Rotherham council. On the one hand they covered up the enslavement of 1400 children because of concerns about appearing racist - the children were mostly white and the pedo ring was mostly Pakistani.
So Rotherham council must have been a painfully PC place, right? Turns out it wasn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Published in January 2015, the Casey report concluded that the council had a bullying, sexist culture of covering up information and silencing whistleblowers, and was "not fit for purpose"
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
The Damore case with the NLRB was not handled though normal channels.
Interestingly, it was grabbed from the local office and taken up by the Washington DC office where the people are political appointees (in this case nearly all are Obama holdovers). Rememer that Google's top people were in so tight with the Obama admin that Google's CEO Eric Schmidt was in the White House more often than a bunch of Obama cabinet officers, and over 250 Google employees cycled back-and-forth between being employed at Google and being employed in the Obama administration.
Something mighty fishy at play here. Normal cases should be handled by normal processes, and when they are not, something is not normal (this should be obvious).
Assuming the article accurately represents how she was treated, this is completely absolutely off the curve not OK. I don't know how common this is, but there are enough reports from enough different people at different companies that I believe its pretty widespread.
I've found that workplaces that have a larger percentage of older workers tend to do a lot better. Maybe the older workers who act like adults at work serve as role models for younger workers. In my (second hand) experience even the defense industry is far better than high-tech.
I would not tolerate anything like this sort of behavior in my group. I'm paying people (generally quite well) to do really interesting, really difficult work. I need all of them, and the last thing I want is some immature idiot making it more difficult for someone else in my group to do their work.
HR isn't there to help the employee. They are there to protect the employer. So of course they said her claims were unsubstantiated.
If her claims were backed by evidence, and HR said they were not, that is not "protecting the employer". It is setting them up to lose a lawsuit.
Corporate culture varies a lot between companies. Harassment is very bad some places, almost non-existant in others. If it was low at your companies, then that is great, you were part of a culture that didn't allow it. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist at other companies.
If only half of these allegations are true, this is a problem. And while I think the lady may be a bit sissy about a few things and perhaps herself socially inept/inexperienced at dealing with more than one man at a time, I can't entirely dismiss these allegations as improbable. Especially with prudish/bigot societies like the US or - in parts - Germany.
Curiously I don't think this can be all a Google/Company problem, but it must be a society problem. And from my own experience as a heterosexual man and a successful software developer I can attest that we as a society do have a problem, and it is related to sex. There are measurable amounts of bullshit coming out of the #met00 debate, and ladies and society as a whole need to turn on their brains before speaking and learn the difference between criminal behaviour and bad manners (once again praise to mature feminists like Catherine Deneuve for bringing back some sanity into the debate - this is the type of woman we need as opinon leaders), but we also have to have a public discussion about male sexuality. And it's heterosexual males who need to have it!
Nearly all incidents described in the article are instances of behaviour that can only be called infantile and notably immature. The people - I'm not sure they would qualify as 'men' - doing this sort of thing need to catch up on their upbringing and learn some manners and basic common decency. And they need to learn to get a handle and a perspective on their own sexual desires - which, of course, also amounts to standing up for them in the appropriate situations. And if truckloads of useful/good male developers have a problem with this aspect of their manhood, then companies such as Google truely are in a dilemma.
We need to grow the fuck up, put the kid-girlies and their excess #met00 / gender-studies bullshit nonsense into perspective and have a grown up debate about how men and women can get along and keep their mating habits in check while at the same time being able to express them where appropriate. If this doesn't happen, if todays society can't find a method of once again formalising the encounter and courting of heterosexual males and females, this is only going to get worse.
My 2 eurocents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Utter nonsense. It's up to journalists to investigate claims and evidence of articles they are working on. It's their fucking job.
Yeah and the claim is "someone has filed a lawsuit alleging X" and it's been (trivially) verified as correct because that information is pulicly available from the gubmint.
What you are effectively saying is that it's irresponsile for reporters to report the existence of lawsuits until they've verified all the claims in the lawsuit themselves or the trial has finished. It would even preclude out of court settlements ecause in that case it would be more or less impossible to verify the allegations.
So yeah no.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Googlers cannot make most production changes without committing. Googlers *cannot* commit without code review.
Isn't that how it's supposed to be? I mean, having the master (or production branch) protected and won't accept changes without a code review and ideally passing the unit (and hopefully regression) tests?
If you work in the medical industry, you'll find that things like a commit to master has to be signed in triplicate to comply with FDA regs. That can be pretty mechanical if you have various automatic test plans in place, but it hsa to be auditable because as far as they're concerned if it's not documented, it didn't happen.
Even at a tiny startup you can do that without excessive hassle, but honestly, I'd be wary of going to work somewhere where the master branch of the production repos wasn't protected.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
My wife has worked at one of the big tech firms in Silicon Valley since 1992.
Great, it sounds like that company has a good culture, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
My house has never been burgled, despite it being moderately common in London. Just because it didn't happen to me and I've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Back when I lived in that great sewer of humanity, the Bay Area, I met quite a few Googledouches at social events. All of them had a really very high opinion of themselves, often to the point of being bores. Snobby, yes. Politically correct, yes. Capitalist dogs, yes. Drug addled, yes. Cultish, yes.
But exactly ZERO of them were anything remotely similar to the "bro" stereotype that's being flogged so damned hard by the Financialist propaganda organs. Look at my posting history, all of it - I'm definitely not a fan or defender of Google. But this charge strikes me as OBVIOUSLY false.
Google is a HUGE company. Once a company gets sufficiently large the culture starts to vary etween divisions and different parts of the company have a very distinct flavour relative to the others.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
What you are effectively saying is that it's irresponsile for reporters to report the existence of lawsuits until they've verified all the claims in the lawsuit themselves or the trial has finished. It would even preclude out of court settlements ecause in that case it would be more or less impossible to verify the allegations.
Why intentionally lie about trivial facts immediately apparent to anyone having read TFA?
TFA does a heck of a lot more than simply report out the existence of lawsuit. TFA in fact reports out all of the juicy CONTENT of the lawsuit.
By your same logic and standards any journalist anywhere can report out content of anything and everything that comes across their desk with no due diligence simply by couching it in the fact such material exists. This is a ridiculous and unprofessional position.
Do you read any press? They don't do that (any more), they do whatever is needed to increase circulation (at best) or their personal brand.
I don't give a f*** if everyone in the world does it. The fact that x, y and z elects to do or not to do something is completely irrelevant. It's STILL irresponsible journalism regardless.
What you are effectively saying is that it's irresponsile for reporters to report the existence of lawsuits until they've verified all the claims in the lawsuit themselves or the trial has finished.
Never suggested or implied any such bullshit. People can have honest disagreements on the margins of how much collaborating evidence is necessary. This isn't that, not even close.
The reality in this case there was NO EVIDENCE presented ANY claims reported were checked out or verified. NONE AT ALL.
Not getting caught is the point. Look, I worked in a company where we used to tell misogynist jokes all the time. When more women began to work at the company, some people insisted on telling the jokes as usual. I said that we shouldn't stop it, but we shouldn't do it when there's a woman around, which I think is the best solution.
Instead of trying to force everyone to act and think the same, just make sure they know when to shut up.
Avantgarde Hebrew science fiction
I have worked in places where man talked a lot about going to strip joints and where I once saw a man telling a woman something like "I don't want to argue design with another guy in front of you, you are a woman and are sensitive to seeing arguments". Idk, my assumption is that most companies are the same so I would guess that some parts of Google are like this too. Maybe I'm naive and google is really this place for chosen people only where everyone are pure.
(And yes, I understand you are not pro google, but I think you are still buying into the whole "google are different from everyone else", which I don't)
Avantgarde Hebrew science fiction
That is why the Nanny States in Europe have laws you loath us for ... ... but there are limitations how often that can happen.
An employee has to take vacation, by law. He can not go without nor can an employer deny it. Of course it happens sometimes that during a year an employee does not find a time period where he wants vacation and the employer does not agree to other time periods. Then the vacation days are shifted into the next year or "payed off"
And to be honest 10 or 14 vacation days ... and only very limited set of holidays ... it is surprising that the US have no riots and violent revolutions :D
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Clarification: Trump isnâ(TM)t against immigration (being, in fact, married to an immigrant). He is against illegal immigration. A distinction too subtle for whatever media you subscribe to, but none-the-less an important one.
The reality in this case there was NO EVIDENCE presented ANY claims reported were checked out or verified. NONE AT ALL. ... at least in my country.
Erm, so you did read the law suit? Why not providing a link?
And why did the judge accept the suit? I mean, if there is no evidence provided, judges tend to reject law suits
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
You assume that everyone gets 10 days plus paid holidays...which is certainly not the case.
Many jobs don't even have paid sick time and don't get me started on the healthcare they don't offer (or costs a fortune for horrible coverage you can't use anyhow) that would help reduce the number of needed sick days.
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
Haven't you heard? False reports represent less than 1% of accusations and over 99% of statistics are functionally meaningless.
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
also, attempted murder which fails only because the gun is non-lethal.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Okay, then why did he block immigrants from Muslim-majority countries that have no documented links to terrorism?
The problem is we have no way to verify their backgrounds. There are no records either way to check. They do not exist or were destroyed in the conflicts raging across the region. Absence of a documented link is not evidence of no involvement with Islamic extremists, it's just evidence there is no information available. They could be peaceful or could be mass murderers. There is no way currently to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Trump is trying to keep your head attached to the rest of you, the same for the people you care about, and all despite your best efforts to thwart him.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
but I think you are still buying into the whole "google are different from everyone else", which I don't)
Nope. I've never seen any "bro culture" anywhere in the software industry. So far as I can tell, it's a complete fabrication by propagandists with an agenda to push.
Now maybe you've seen something different. Or maybe you work in a different industry? I've never worked with programmers who talked about going to strip clubs. Salesmen, sure, but not actual tech people.
And in America if your boss doesn't let you take vacation that's in your employment agreement...you get to give notice and find a better job. No laws to cover up the ouch of bad management. If a company hires idiots who makes them bleed talent, that fixes itself. From what you're telling me, you can hire all the martinets you want and their stupidity is masked by the laws. That's not an improvement over what we've got here. Incidently, I get 25 days a year between vacations and fixed holidays, a pension 401k, and reasonable and cheap health insurance through my employer. Don't believe the propaganda. If it were true, no one would want to come here.
As many are observing, we are coming apart at the seams. People are finding it harder than it should be just to get along with neighbors, coworkers, etc. This is unfortunate, but not unexpected, when you rapidly (in just a generation or two) throw off all social convention as being evil. I'm not arguing that things were perfect back in the good old days, but some aspects of social life may have been easier to get through than they are now.
Now to say something uncomfortable: When there are some defined boundaries in society, then it's more obvious to everyone when someone is going outside them. But the existence of boundaries means that people have their "place". As soon as you put it that way, everyone screams (--and I can hear you), "Nope, we gave up all that crap, and we're not going back to those unenlightened, un-liberated days ever!"
OK, then live with the harassment, because you won't be able to fix the harassment by itself. It's just one manifestation of the general tendency today to behave in whatever way our instincts propel us to act. ("If it feels good, do it!") Until you fix _that_, any particular manifestation will remain out of control.
(Just for the record, I'd prefer an environment where people were encouraged to have more self-control, not less.)
So it is propaganda that there is no law regulating how much vacation an employee has? :-P
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
And to be honest 10 or 14 vacation days ... and only very limited set of holidays ... it is surprising that the US have no riots and violent revolutions :D
We do, they're just unorganized. https://www.statista.com/stati...
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Incidently, I get 25 days a year between vacations and fixed holidays, a pension 401k, and reasonable and cheap health insurance through my employer.
Classic, "I got mine".
Your not worried about the low wage workers making your salad, compelled to work when sick?
..or the janitor rampaging through your workplace because he's a temp with no benefits, vacation, or holidays?
By "worried", I don't mean pants shitting terror, as espoused by the NRA. I mean human compassion that compels you to help.
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And alot more people are willing to protect their friends and ignore problems that aren't affecting them personally.
Cheap storage VM.
According to the Labor Board findings, Damore didn't just submit his memo, he actively pushed it on people. That's different.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
In 2011, I worked at a now-defunct company in North DFW and every frickin day they'd throw something at me through my cubicle, run away, and all of them would maniacally laugh. They were all "brogramers" and the first I'd ever worked with.
It went on for about a week. Then they recorded me saying "Stop throwing shit at me!" and set it as ALL OF THEIR RING TONES. Then they'd have the switchboard dial all of their numbers, and they would openly taunt me.
So I reported it to HR (~40 year-old jock himself). And then I set up my laptop to record audio 24x7. Then I went home. Early.
Next day, I heard HR discussing it with them: They said:
1. We don't like him because he refused to go to the strip bar with us.
2. And we know he doesn't drink alcohol.
3. Yeah, he's probably some sort of religious nut.
4. Don't you know?! He's a Mormon!!
5. Just leave him alone, alright?
6. But he doesn't have a girlfriend. We think he's gay.
7. A gay Mormon? You guys are confused. I give up.
Next day, I walked into the CEO's office, in an adjacent building, and had him listen to the audio. IMMEDIATELY, I was moved to an empty desk across from his office and I *never* had to openly talk with those jerks again. Just 90% through IM, code reviews and the occasional design meeting.
It was *great*! Then I found a better job and got out of there before the entire company imploded, about 6 months later.
I originally thought Damore got a raw deal, then I read the Labor Board report. Damore was pushing his memo on people, not just posting it to internal discussion sites, and the Labor Board ruled that he should have expected it to go public if he did that. That can get disruptive.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
"Instead of hiring time diversity efforts, why aren't we studying why women overwhelmingly choose careers in other industries to create conscientious changes at Google which will attract and keep women? We are obviously doing it wrong, otherwise we would have more women here. How can we change to make this a better place for women to work?"
This is pretty much what Damore asked with his memo, and he was burned for it; called a sexist, you name it. Now Lee is saying in her lawsuit that the culture at Google is so male-centric that she fells like what Google considers "normal" behavior is actively hostile to women.
Looks like the whole company is on the same page to me. I am curious what you think Damore's criticism of Google's "hiring time only" approach to diversity was intended to lead to? Did you think that Damore was wanting Google to fire all of the women and minorities? See, that is exactly the opposite of what Damore was trying to accomplish. His objective was to create a change in the company which would lead to an "organic" transfer of diverse talent to Google, and which would be sustainable in the long run because it was based on recognition of other industries that attract and keep women, and that women overwhelmingly choose to educate themselves in preparation for. Apparently those ideas are sexist, reprehensible, and good for a firing as well as a public humiliation.
Hilarious that Damore asked "What do women want?" and the response from feminists was "Your head."
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
It all depends on the employer. Some janitors make a comfortable middle-class salary, doubly so if their spouses also work.
No one forces anyone to take any job they don't want. We have low unemployment and even in the bad old days of the great recession, millions of middle-skill and high-skill job openings went unfilled. People of all walks have had the option to pursue better working conditions but it would have required them to relocate to go after them. Many did, to their benefit. Others felt content to collect unemployment benefits.
So to answer your question...no I'm not worried.
It's sad that this still happens in 2018.
This happened in 2016.
WTB [sig], PST!!!
It was, but culture is its own enforcement mechanism. In America, the culture (as a rule) is to work. That is to say, many salaried people don't mind working overtime. If everyone in the office is pulling 60 hour weeks on a regular basis, and they're your friends, and you get the thrill of working with people doing something hard...it's magic. You don't want to be seen as the lazy one agitating for vacations. For a workplace filled with kids fresh out of school who can go 48 hours on coffee and cigarettes...it works. Until you age out of it and look for better work.
I'm in a pretty chill workplace. Like I said I get a lot of vacation and holidays. But I like my work, and just let the vacation pile on until it runs up to the expiration limit. Holidays are more-or-less mandatory but discretionary vacation time...I can go for two years without taking a day. Because I want to.
If you have such an inferiority complex that you take everything in the worst way you can possibly read something, then you can understand why the Feminist Women feel unwelcome!
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.