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New York Councilman Proposes Bill That Would Grant NYC Workers 'Right To Disconnect' (vice.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Motherboard: New York City councilman Rafael Espinal released a "Right to Disconnect" bill on Thursday, advocating for the rights of employees to stop answering work-related emails and other digital messages, like texts, after official work hours. "Our work lives have spilled into our personal lives because of technology," he told me. "It's time we unblur and strike a clear line." Brooklyn-based Espinal said he got the idea from France, where a bill passed early last year by the Ministry of Labor requires companies of over 50 employees to define out-of-office email rules. He wanted to create a similar guideline so that workers would not be penalized for disconnecting after work hours. But that's France -- known for joie de vivre -- and this is New York, known for not sleeping.
Answering work emails after work hours, or during weekends, or on vacation, has become par for the course here, and across the US. Statistics rarely account for the extra hours spent managing post-office work -- by most official counts, Americans work the same number of hours -- around 39 to 47 per week -- just as we did in the 1950s. But those of us living it know this isn't true: technology has completely changed the way we work, and burnout is rampant among American workers. If Espinal were able to implement the bill, it would face similar challenges to its European counterparts. Critics say the legislation in France has no teeth, and companies are still allowed to define their own guidelines, leaving room for exploitation. And the New York version of the "Right to Disconnect" bill includes exemptions for jobs that require 24-hour on-call periods.
Answering work emails after work hours, or during weekends, or on vacation, has become par for the course here, and across the US. Statistics rarely account for the extra hours spent managing post-office work -- by most official counts, Americans work the same number of hours -- around 39 to 47 per week -- just as we did in the 1950s. But those of us living it know this isn't true: technology has completely changed the way we work, and burnout is rampant among American workers. If Espinal were able to implement the bill, it would face similar challenges to its European counterparts. Critics say the legislation in France has no teeth, and companies are still allowed to define their own guidelines, leaving room for exploitation. And the New York version of the "Right to Disconnect" bill includes exemptions for jobs that require 24-hour on-call periods.
“Wimps don’t want to answer emails at 1:00 A.M. on Saturday night they can always quit.” I imagine that will be the general gist of the commentary to follow. I think that there should be some labor rules as employees generally don’t have much bargaining power anymore. It will be interesting to see how they plan to enforce this.
Any job that involved email, off as soon as I walked out the door. My time is my time. Some have complained that I didn't reply at 10pm at night, I don't get on-call pay so I don't answer.
The company pays me for the hours I work
Ah, you're on wages. If you ever become salaried, you'll find out that this isn't how it works for better paying positions.
If a client four time zones away calls and need help, I'm not going to jeopardize a big contract and not just my own job but others' too, including those on wages, by declining to take the call.
I'm compensated extra for the willingness to do what it takes, whether it's during office hours or not. They pay for me doing my job, not my hours. That also means that if I need to do something, and there's not any pressing matters at work, I simply walk out and do it, without holding my hat in my hand asking a big boss. They get more than enough of my work, and my salary and bonuses reflect this.
I can't help but wonder if New York City councilman Rafael Espinal's staff will be allowed to opt-out of after-hours emails without consequences?
I suspect not, just as OSHA regulations don't apply to congressional staffers.
Ken
across the US. Statistics rarely account for the extra hours spent managing post-office work
Well, why would they? For most people, the extra hours spent managing the post-office is not all that significant.
I don't trust atoms -- they make up stuff.
Just because you do it doesn't mean others do. I worked salary for most of my career and any after hours I had to attend were balanced by a reduction of standard hours. Do your job, do it well, and you can do this.
I tend to those communications outside of working hours because I want to and my employer is extremely flexible. They do not try to require us to be in the damn office all the time which leave more room for my life. If they made me come into the office from 8 to 5 everyday you can pretty much fucking forget the possibility of getting a response from me after 4:59.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Well said man. ....or woman? Nevermind...this slashdot. Yet to encounter a woman here in the last half decade.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Important people who had to be on call had an extra landline phone connected just for work.
Later generations had a pager.
People with needed skills remained in contact in the past.
Doing emails and work related digital messages sounds like the city has not hired enough people on merit.
Skilled people get their work done during their work shift.
Then another shift of skilled people take over with the ability to get more work done.
Try finding people who can do the work without having to send more work out after hours.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
what about more unions and UBI
If a client four time zones away calls and need help, I'm not going to jeopardize a big contract and not just my own job but others' too, including those on wages, by declining to take the call. I'm compensated extra for the willingness to do what it takes, whether it's during office hours or not.
So do I, it's called overtime pay. I'll work all night and weekends too for +50/100%. Maybe in the US people on wages are just office drones that walk out when the work day is over no matter what, but that's not normal in other countries. And you know we still have to negotiate for base pay raises and promotions, if you're not there when it counts don't expect to see much of those. Maybe you're one of the few that actually belong in the salaried category with real power and freedom to decide how to do your job, but my impression is that most salaried US workers are essentially wage slaves with no overtime pay where they just pile on the workload until you are working extra.
We all look at the total package with actual compensation compared to actual hours worked. The difference is simply that I'm not paid for in advance, if you want me to work all night there's a cost which means my boss isn't going to approve it unless it's actually important. While you've already got your salary, let's take as much advantage of that as we possibly can. I mean there's probably a near endless list of things the company would want me to do, at some point you're probably setting a cutoff yourself, now I've done "enough" for my pay grade so I'm going home. For me it's my boss making that decision, if he's not paying overtime it can wait until tomorrow. It's really as simple as that...
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Translation: you were happy to sacrifice your time so the company could make more money, without you being appropriately compensated in return. How very Calvinist of you.
> any after hours I had to attend were balanced by a reduction of standard hours
This has not been the case for many of the years I've worked personally, and many of the senior roles I've filled. It's at the core of much of the "glass ceiling" women experience for senior roles, they've been much less willing than men to work in roles that require it. It's also part of age discrimination for men my age in technology experience when we are no longer willing or able to be on call 24x7. I'm personally just now finishing an after hours deployment: it needed to occur after business hours, and I had to supervise it. But the compensatory time needed is larger for me and men my age than it is for many of my younger colleagues. We can't spend the next day up at 7:00 AM for remote telecommuting with Europe or Asia, or due to family schedules. The physical and mental toll is more burdensome, as well as the toll of doing mixed schedules with remote colleagues. Even the toll of hopping schedule from one schedule for weekend deployments and weekday business meetings increases.
Look in any network operations center, and any supervisory or senior engineer role that requires off-hours or awkwardly scheduled work. The age and gender skew towards younger men are enormous.
I know of no state where "salaried" personnel get paid overtime. The workplace may authorize compensation time. But overtime for senior developer, systems, DevOps, or technical managerial personnel. Even for hourly private contractors, I do not see overtime. In what what private industry. non-union field are you seeing overtime paid?
Personally I find doing code reviews in the evening relaxing.
Viva la working not very much. The Chinese will kill us with their hard work ethic if we let this dumb shit happen. @trump help!
They have a right to disconnect and I have a right to terminate their work relationship with my business. We're in the 21st Century: flexibility, agility and availability are mandatory. Those who cannot or will not adapt are doomed to fall by the wayside.
But I decided I am just going to quit.
If I were ever required or expected to work after hours, then that's a "thanks, but no thanks" - There are plenty of jobs out there. You want me to work in the evening? You pay me for that. The more idiots who accept to be bullied, the more bullying there will be. I consider myself lucky not have been born in the US, where it seems slavery never ended, after all
This goes both ways, I have always been happy to answer the odd call, slack message outside my normal hours. In a flexible work culture not everyone works the same office hours as you. It doesnâ(TM)t take much to write a quick reply and then switch off again. No big deal.
Willingness, or thatâ(TM)s just the way itâ(TM)s always been and youâ(TM)ve come to accept it? Did you get an offer with and without this?
I say; âoemore fool youâ. Your employer should provide proper cover for this scenario instead of taking advantage of people at the sacrifice of their personal lives. Is the US really just a country full of people who only know how to say âoeyesâ to their boss?
You sound lika a commie.
If we want to compete we need to do a better job and cheaper than the Chinese.
If we aren't willing to do that then the market will find us unnecessary.
So you say. But at our company my boss actively tries for people to get the fuck out of the office and go spend time at home doing non-work related things.
Does that mean New Yorkers don't have the right to put their work cellphones in the office drawer when they leave?
If you ever become salaried, you'll find out that this isn't how it works for better paying positions.
I'm interested to know why you think those positions are "better paying" in the first place.
They get more than enough of my work, and my salary and bonuses reflect this.
You think so? Whatever you're being paid, I'd demand 3x as much.
I was in your situation once. Being on call 24/7 - even on "vacations" and holidays - wasn't worth it.
Especially when I had to call a 'C' suite executive only to find out that he was on vacation and couldn't be reached.
But - some people love what you do.
Just because you do it doesn't mean others do. I worked salary for most of my career and any after hours I had to attend were balanced by a reduction of standard hours. Do your job, do it well, and you can do this.
It's often more about company policies than how well you do your job.
The GP seems to be not in the USA. Things work differently outside the USA, especially in terms of "union position", something not seen in most of Europe, for example, for 30 years since closed shops were ended.
If a client four time zones away calls and need help, I'm not going to jeopardize a big contract and not just my own job but others' too, including those on wages, by declining to take the call.
Then the company should be paying someone (possibly you) to take calls during those hours.
I look at it this way: In a salaried position I was hired for "x" amount of dollars to perform my job. If, on a consistent basis, my job requires I work overtime then one of two things is going on and needs to change, (1) the job requirements need to be redefined to account for the extra time needed to get the work done, - or - (2) I was given this position under false pretenses of pay vs. required work. Even though I'm salaried I still look at the $/hr I make and I'll be dammed if I'm going to work enough overtime to drop be back to where I was before .. or less.
I know of no state where "salaried" personnel get paid overtime. The workplace may authorize compensation time. But overtime for senior developer, systems, DevOps, or technical managerial personnel. Even for hourly private contractors, I do not see overtime. In what what private industry. non-union field are you seeing overtime paid?
I'm in one of those "other countries" I was talking about, more specifically Norway:
Maybe in the US people on wages are just office drones that walk out when the work day is over no matter what, but that's not normal in other countries.
Here's the rules here:
Exceptions to overtime rules
The rules on working hours and overtime are basically applicable to all employees, but there are exceptions for employees who have:
Leading position
Leading positions mean senior positions with clear management functions. Examples of such positions may be head of department, office managers and others such as:
Particularly independent position
By specially independent position is meant workers who do not have direct managerial functions but who still have senior and responsible positions. This concerns an employee who himself prioritises his tasks, they decide what to do, what to delegate to others, when the work is to be done and how the work is to be done. Even if an employee is exempted from these provisions, working hours must nevertheless be arranged such that:
The first one requires a real management position with subordinates and a business unit, you can't just slap a "team lead" or "architect" label on someone and make them exempt because they direct. I know even shift leaders in manufacturing is not exempt because they have to be there when the shift runs, they don't really have any more freedom than the shift workers just a bit more responsibility. My department head is exempt, but none of the people who actually develop or manage the IT systems.
Particularly independent positions are very rare, they're basically for partner models, special advisors etc. that aren't "normal" employees at all. If there's a boss expecting to see you in your office (minimum) 9-5, you probably don't qualify. Independent contractors don't get overtime pay, though if you're hired by a consulting company they too are by these rules. And yes, both private and public industry mostly respects this because it's not worth the slap-down if they do an audit and insist you owe all the employees back pay for the last X years. It's happened and it's ugly.
Of course they're not stupid, if they have to pay overtime the base pay reflects that. And it's an incentive to keep a reasonable number of people on the job, two people working 60 hours/week is more expensive than three people working 40 hours/week which means you don't get insane crunch times because the week was already full. There is a certain pressure to use "flexible hours" instead which is a perk many offer to give you some freedom in when you're coming and going letting you accumulate hours in a time bank, though typically with "core hours" you have to be there.
Maybe some employers there are more abusive than others but I've worked in both the private and public sector and it's been pretty clear what extra hours are truly mandatory and there hasn't been any major objection to using overtime then. But you might say that in stressful periods you tend to accumulate flexible hours and in peaceful periods you take time off so you adapt somewhat to what the business needs and not just what you want.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I am a senior engineer. I get overtime in the USA. Not many jobs like this
I feel like this is a cyber attack intended to negatively affect Americaâ(TM)s economic output.
A low effort one, but a cyber attack nonetheless.
Because after you have proven yourself, the pay is higher.
Hence better paying.
Im earning 4 times my starting post college salary in 8 years. And im slightly underpaid, but with free apartment and transport allowance.
I go to work at 9am, leave by 4pm (8-5 for the non mgmt) but if shit happens, i would work any hour of any (kind) of day. Line stop threatened at a customer plant? 2am 90min drive im there. Supply chain issue requiring someone on call at 4 bloody am(i hate mornings), ill be up in my room surfing slashdot with my phone charged n petrol tank filled the night before if a call comes. Real life examples
And my pay? Better per hr than all my colleagues i started out with 8 years ago. Except a few that did well by shifting companies. About to do that soon. :D
It's exploitation of young men, pure and simple.
What I can't understand is why some people blame anyone but the employers for this. As if it's a good thing almost, and older guys/women are to blame for not sacrificing their health.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The fuck are you talking about?
If you're paid a salary, you are almost certainly not compensated for your overtime. Any hours you put past your 40 hour obligation, is free labor as far as the shareholders are concerned. And if you're dealing with so much overtime that the company feels pressured to give you a bonus for it, then your company is a mismanaged shithole with horrible managers.
Outside of emergencies, the other big big reason for overtime, is unrealistic deadlines set by idiots who aren't on the front lines and don't have to do the overtime work themselves, and from their perspective it's all extra free labor that Americans are stupidly happy to provide because it makes them proud to earn less money per hour. Fucking idiots.
Ah, you're on wages. If you ever become salaried, you'll find out that this isn't how it works for better paying positions.
I was salaried for 20 yrs.
Then I became a "consultant" - hourly. Doubled my pay AND I was paid for every hour worked, unlike when I was salaried. At 1 job, it was normal to work 70+ hrs a week ... which almost halved my true hourly wage. Unacceptable. Especially when overtime wasn't being paid - ever.
As an hourly paid person, I always charged for every 15 minutes. Period. The company boss actually had the nuts to ask me to violate federal laws and only charge for 40 hrs, but still work 50 hrs. I declined and let everyone in the group of consultant know.
Happiness is being paid while on a 14 hr flight, sleeping, going somewhere you actually WANT to be. Because the company had a no-1st-class rule, even when it was cheaper, I never felt guilty billing for sitting in an airport 6 hrs waiting for a connection either.
And for all the salaried people thinking you have job security. That hasn't been my experience. If you are useful, then you have job security.
Every 6 months, my contract would end and about 3 times in 10 yrs they didn't renew it or talk with me about any renewal in advance. I would plan my vacations for that time and not show up to work. I'd usually get a voice mail around noon the following Monday asking where I was. I'd reply late that evening that the contract had ended, so I went skiing or to the beach or camping or to Japan or France or South Africa and could be available the following week, if they wanted.
Even when the company policy changed to force all consultants to become employees on XYZ date, I never spoke with anyone about it. I didn't agree. A week prior, my boss stopped by with paperwork to be filled out to become an employee with a 30% pay cut. I didn't fill it out and stopped coming to work the day the contract ended. Got a call that I had been given special approval to continue for 2 months longer. I declined. Was going to be on a flight to Asia in a few days and planned to travel for at least the next year.
It has been 11 yrs now. I've been living off my stock investments all this time. I was 42 when I stopped working. It is the answer to life, the universe, and everything. No amount of cash can make up for time wasted at a job, away from family and friends.
I never regret NOT being salaried ... or disconnected.
I've worked on many projects with global teams. Meetings commonly happen during work hours in different time zones.
If you're paid a salary, you are almost certainly not compensated for your overtime. Any hours you put past your 40 hour obligation, is free labor as far as the shareholders are concerned.
With "real" salaried positions (i.e. not the unscrupulous use of "salaried" to get around overtime laws that many companies do), it's not about hours at all. Hours doesn't come into it. You're paid to do a job, not the number of work hours you spend to do it.
Some weeks I can do my job in less time than most regularly paid workers, and if I feel like it, take on other work too. And if I don't, and don't care about a potential pay raise, I can go fish instead. Other weeks, I work more time than most regularly paid workers. But again, it's not about time. My time is mine, but I have an obligation to do my job. Some of it must be done during "business hours" when there's a support apparatus of other workers present, but it's really not about counting the hours.
It looks like you have a problem detaching yourself from thinking of hours as the measurement for work. Sometimes time is not measured at all - the end result is.
Fuck you, boot licker.
Solidarity forever.
As long as you feel you are fairly compensated for your work, then all is fine. Personally, how many hours I work in a given year matters greatly because there are only so many possibly hours available.
I'm quite happy with my 40 hour job. I make 49k wages, have good health insurance for cheap, building a pension plan and a 401k account. I'm hourly. Sometimes I work 48 hours by adding an extra day and rarely do they ask for me to work overtime but if they do I get paid.
My store director works anywhere from 8-15 hour days, 5-6 days a week. Pretty sure he's making 70-80k but he gets no pension, his medical is super expensive (I was shocked when he showed me), and at the end of the day his job seems constantly under assault from his bosses.
While I would really enjoy adding 20-30k in wages I can't say I'd be happy working 50%-75% more hours for it. I also detest the idea of being on call.
To each their own, but I prefer only working my 5:30-2pm shift and having all the rest of the time for me.
If you're so happy to work hard beyond 40 hours a week, giving your labor to someone else with little in return - why aren't you flying the hammer and sickle?
Because blaming the abuser would mean admitting that you are abused.
Stories like this prove the US is nowhere near full employment. We will be at full employment when employees feel comfortable saying no to working nights and weekends.
It's interesting how the left-wing and right-wing extremists seem to agree on tariffs.
If you don't enjoy your work, I understand that. However, some of us enjoy our work (and, if we don't, we change jobs so we do). I can't imagine "counting hours" like a hourly employee -- it would limit my flexibility to do self initiated projects, get stuff off my plate so I could pursue projects I have a passion for, but not a mandate to do etc.
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
In my experience (all in the USA) and in, one form or the other, systems software development (such as database kernels and storage systems targeted at use in large enterprises), the best developers tend to take pride in their work and enjoy it - in fact, part of the "compensation" is having an environment to engage in that work.
Sure, there are parts one hates - mostly because they occur at 2AM. But the customer is king (they are why your paycheck clears the bank and are the reason you get to do interesting stuff and get paid for it rather than working at McDonald's by day to pay the rent and coding by night to exercise the brain). If a customer system blows up at 2AM your time and the support organization needs the most qualified engineer to help resolve the problem and you're that person, you don't hesitate -- because you want the customer to be successful (of course the site team and your CEO also wants the customer to be successful, but that's not the primary motivation for you). This is true even if no one thinks the problem is in code that you "own", but that your knowledge of the overall system, your inherent diagnostic skills, and/or the architectural role of "your" code gives you the best chance of narrowing the problem down quickly and figuring out what to do next and by who.
I've gotten paid fairly well for this of course, but am strictly salaried (and, of course, receive bonuses and other financial perks). I have never gotten a penny of additional income just because I worked more hours. Of course, I do expect to be reimbursed for additional expenses I incur or financial benefits I "lose" as a direct result of becoming involved at odd hours -- such as for food ordered out, for tickets to a show that I couldn't use because of being called to work the problem, for taxi/Uber home and back if I feel I shouldn't be driving home after a 20 hour stint, for a babysitter, etc...
However, I must admit I also have the freedom to point out that my participation in a particular crisis is no longer useful and that I'm done with it unless and until that changes or that the crisis isn't really critical and can wait so I basically refuse to waste my time or interrupt my life -- you can't pay me enough to waste my time (I generally have plenty of ways at any point in time that I would rather waste my time). What are they going to do - fire me?
Oh, and when I've been an engineering manager when support (and even my boss) has demanded that one of my people get involved at 2AM in a problem and I know their participation is not necessary or helpful, I tell support to go fly a kite or to have the EVP of engineering or (at smaller companies) the CEO call me and I will explain why my team member's participation won't be helpful (and may even delay resolution of the problem). Funny thing is, I never got a call from my EVP or CEO in these cases so it must not have been quite as important as the support person thought.
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
It's not a US thing. I'm salaried, but frequently get compensated for extra hours. Most likely because this time is billable to our customers.
Just another day in Paradise
Only to radical centrist fanatics.
The Fair Labor Standards Act requires employers to pay employees overtime pay for hours worked over 40 in a workweek
...
The minimum salary required by the DOL to qualify for one of the white-collar exemptions is currently $23,600 annually (or $455 per week). This was set back in 2004. In May 2016, the Obama DOL issued new rules moving that number up significantly to $47,476 annually (or $913 per week). The new rules included an automatic update provision that would have increased the amount every three years. The new rules were supposed to be effective December 1, 2016.
Proper cover would mean people working after 5pm. Canâ(TM)t have your cake and eat it too.
Slavery was abolished in 1865 yet companies American's work for insists that emails & texts be answered after "clocking out" and without pay, in my mind that is slavery. Because if that employee disconnects from work, they may get fired or demoted. But this issue is not new, since the bag phone & pager were invented in the 1980's, it has been a struggle to figure out when business ends & personal life begins for the employee.
Your life is not ad good as you claim, or you wouldn't be posting here.
just sayin.
Exactly, my salary is for 40 hours (on average), or less.
Cheap storage VM.
Which is why we need regulation to ensure an even playing field.
Cheap storage VM.
comp time is fine, I comp it the same week or it's time and a half comp time.
Cheap storage VM.